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freedom is coming tomorrow prepared for your freedom -R.P.C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.226.64.218 ( talk) 04:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
During the AfD for the novels in this series, except the first, there was no consensus for deleting them all, however the suggestion was also made to merge them all here to this page to give the series one good page instead of a ton of bad ones. For such a merge, short summaries would be added for each novel (rather than the bloated ones on each page), and the individual reviews would be used to build a full series reception section. I support such a merge and believe it would result in a much better article than the ones there are now. It would be similar to what is done with the numerous manga series, allowing for one good series article instead of a bunch of bad individual volume ones. Thoughts? -- AnmaFinotera ( talk · contribs) 09:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
"I think such a single series article could be well crafted and easily be taken to GA or even FA, but could individual ones?"
I think that's a valid point. It doesn't hold GA status, but Private contains the kind of changes proposed here, and currently has a B rating. I support the proposition. -- James26 ( talk) 10:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
". . .I would still expect there to be at least two or three times as many sources out there covering a seven-nearly-eight book series... If that number of sources doesn't exist for Private, then maybe it's not such a good idea for us to be making comparisons. :/"
? ... Your tone is increasingly defensive here. If I said something to offend you, my apologies. My original point was that an article with a B rating could possibly be helpful in at least one regard to articles that are currently rated Stub class -- possibly in one of the respects mentioned here. It wasn't intended as an insult. And in regard to sources, the Private article has fewer than what you apparently expect because the series itself isn't as big as certain others. Obviously, that doesn't mean that an article about such a series can't be among the better-rated ones. I still think that AnmaFinotera's suggestions contain valid points. With that said, I'll simply await the outcome of this proposal. -- James26 ( talk) 23:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Nothing has happened on any of the other articles since the 15th and the discussion seems to have died down some. So far, the consensus seems to be to merge these articles into one single cohesive series article, with the first novel of the series containing to have a stand alone article. Ed Wood, however, continues edit warring over having a non-article in the template, and I suspect will disagree that there is consensus here. So, should we do a 30 to evaluate the results of the discussion to ensure that the final result is neutrally determined? -- AnmaFinotera ( talk · contribs) 05:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I am delisting this from WP:3 as it involves more than two editors and so is inappropriate. I'd suggest listing it at WP:MEDCAB instead (I'm a member of MEDCAB and would be willing to take it on if it's listed there). In the mean time, I have only one comment: How is this series different to The Hardy Boys? Thanks fr33k man t - c 17:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to disagree with Fr33kman's process for evaluating consensus, as I believe it goes against the purpose of the WP:3O process. When an uninvolved user takes it upon themselves to determine the consensus in a discussion, their role is much like that of an admin closing a deletion discussion: they act as a stand-in for the community at large, and by critically evaluating the arguments given, determine which side of the debate would be likely to hold out if the debate were moved to a broader forum. (If they feel that they cannot effectively gaugue how the community would act in a given situation, then they should probably refer the discussion to said broader forum.) This is done by evaluating the opinions given in the specific discussion in light of established community practices and rules, and additionally weighing any exceptional circumstances that apply to the specific situation. So yes, Fr33k is correct that a 3O provider is not meant to be a vote-counter, but they are similarly not meant to say "there's a dispute, so no consensus can possibly exist." (Also note that the comparison to the Hardy Boys is essentially an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument, and non-helpful here.)
As for this particular case, I see a majority opinion (merge) which matches community practice and rules ( WP:NOT#PLOT, WP:WAF, WP:OUTCOMES...), dissented by a minority (keep separate) which is arguing as their exceptional circumstance that the pages can be improved. So the question to be considered is whether this exceptional circumstance would be likely to hold up as deserving an exception if the merger was placed for discussion on a broad community forum. Since we are dealing with a claim of exceptionalness, the key concerns here are the practical (rather than ideological) ones. I see two cited above that appear relevant: how best to present information to our readers, and how to waste as little time duplicating effort as possible.
On the first of these, while the argument that individual articles on each book could eventually be better than the list has some merit, there has been broad community consensus in a large number of similar cases (historical debates regarding WP:EPISODE, specifically) that have decided that the context provided by a series page is better than decontextualized plot summary, and that this is a pressing enough concern to warrant merger even when the plot summary pages have encyclopedic potential as individual articles. General practice is to conduct these as "merges without prejudice", and to freely allow the recreation of the individual articles if/when they are rewritten in an encyclopedic fashion. So that the pages can be improved is unlikely to be deemed a valid claim for exception. The only remaining question that could affect the situation is how much effort would be wasted creating the list instead of improving the individual pages, but the answer there is "effectively none": an article on The Clique as a series will have to be created at some point anyway in order to have complete coverage of the topic, so we would not be creating a page that would later be rearranged out of existence, and the content that is in the individual book pages now is for the most part going to need completely rewritten in the final versions of those articles, so we run no risk of losing useful content. As such, no claim to exceptionality has been given here that would be likely to stand up to broader scrutiny, and the merge should go forward for those individual book pages which consist only of plot summary, though with the understanding that KittyRainbow is free to create them if she can find enough individualized information to support a separate high-quality article. -- erachima talk 03:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
My view is similar to erachima (merge without prejudice), but I'd like to point out that when people volunteer for article improvement to avoid a merger, please give them a month or two (not just a week) and regularly check on the progress. If there is no progress, then it is time to merge and quality wins; if there is progress, quality has already won. Per KittyRainbow's dedicated work on Best Friends for Never, the articles should be given more time than in usual merge debates. I say this because a sensible approach may result in better articles here, and the bulldozer approach should be reserved for the true stubborn and incorrigible fanboy strongholds. – sgeureka t• c 09:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I have just filed a request for page protection to prevent editing of this page until proper discussion and consensus can be reached about whether these books merit inclusion or not. A consensus needs to be reached here and then further addition/deletion in conflict with that consensus can be considered vandalism. Right now there is a childish tit for tat edit war going on that always stays just short of breaching 3RR. Mfield ( talk) 19:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Per a request from the admin who locked the page, I'm starting this topic so that we can reach consensus here regarding the addition of P.S. I Loathe You to the list of books in the series. For background and my view. The article for this book was deleted via AfD on 20 February 2008. Immediately after deletion, it was twice and CSDed both times before being salted. It has also been deleted and CSDed twice under the name P.S I Loathe You before salting.
On September 9, Ed Wood's Wig sent the article to deletion review, but the deletion was upheld as per WP:BK#Not yet published books, WP:CRYSTAL, and the lack of a truly verifiable publication date or that its even been written. On Template talk:Clique#Edit request, after similar edit warring over the link there also got the template locked, discussion over the link resulted in a consensus that it was far too soon to have the title (with or without a link) included in the template for the same reasons.
As the issue is all related, I feel the consensus from the AfD, DR, and the discussion on the template talk should all apply here and a link or mention of P.S. I Loathe You should also be left out until there actually is real evidence the book has been written and is being released in a relatively short time frame (not "maybe" in 5-6 months from now). As of now, Liss Harrison's own book list does NOT list this book [1] nor can I find any mention of it anywhere else on the site. That's a pretty clear sign to me that it doesn't need to be here either. -- AnmaFinotera ( talk · contribs) 21:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Please excuse me if this message makes no sense. I have the flu, I'm currently having trouble stringing words together, everything is a bit floaty. The book is written. It will be out next year. I think a sentence like "Harrison has finished writing the next book in the series, titled P.S. I Loathe You" is fine. Title should not be linked: redlinks are to encourage people to make the page. I said no link or mention in navbox as it is a navbox, it is for navigating, no point having something you cannot navigate to. But one sentence + cite in the article is good. That's all I wanted to say, I'm off now. I will be back later about the other stuff. Sorry about the delay. If that is too late, I understand. -- KittyRainbow ( talk) 15:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Alloy Entertainment’s 2008 Frankfurt Foreign Rights Guide says P.S. I Loathe You is scheduled for release in February 2009, gives a summary for it, and also says that "Little, Brown signed up books Nos. 9–12". (And that "the book has been translated into 16 languages"—should this be mentioned in either this article or that of the first book?) -- Kletta ( talk) 14:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
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freedom is coming tomorrow prepared for your freedom -R.P.C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.226.64.218 ( talk) 04:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
During the AfD for the novels in this series, except the first, there was no consensus for deleting them all, however the suggestion was also made to merge them all here to this page to give the series one good page instead of a ton of bad ones. For such a merge, short summaries would be added for each novel (rather than the bloated ones on each page), and the individual reviews would be used to build a full series reception section. I support such a merge and believe it would result in a much better article than the ones there are now. It would be similar to what is done with the numerous manga series, allowing for one good series article instead of a bunch of bad individual volume ones. Thoughts? -- AnmaFinotera ( talk · contribs) 09:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
"I think such a single series article could be well crafted and easily be taken to GA or even FA, but could individual ones?"
I think that's a valid point. It doesn't hold GA status, but Private contains the kind of changes proposed here, and currently has a B rating. I support the proposition. -- James26 ( talk) 10:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
". . .I would still expect there to be at least two or three times as many sources out there covering a seven-nearly-eight book series... If that number of sources doesn't exist for Private, then maybe it's not such a good idea for us to be making comparisons. :/"
? ... Your tone is increasingly defensive here. If I said something to offend you, my apologies. My original point was that an article with a B rating could possibly be helpful in at least one regard to articles that are currently rated Stub class -- possibly in one of the respects mentioned here. It wasn't intended as an insult. And in regard to sources, the Private article has fewer than what you apparently expect because the series itself isn't as big as certain others. Obviously, that doesn't mean that an article about such a series can't be among the better-rated ones. I still think that AnmaFinotera's suggestions contain valid points. With that said, I'll simply await the outcome of this proposal. -- James26 ( talk) 23:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Nothing has happened on any of the other articles since the 15th and the discussion seems to have died down some. So far, the consensus seems to be to merge these articles into one single cohesive series article, with the first novel of the series containing to have a stand alone article. Ed Wood, however, continues edit warring over having a non-article in the template, and I suspect will disagree that there is consensus here. So, should we do a 30 to evaluate the results of the discussion to ensure that the final result is neutrally determined? -- AnmaFinotera ( talk · contribs) 05:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I am delisting this from WP:3 as it involves more than two editors and so is inappropriate. I'd suggest listing it at WP:MEDCAB instead (I'm a member of MEDCAB and would be willing to take it on if it's listed there). In the mean time, I have only one comment: How is this series different to The Hardy Boys? Thanks fr33k man t - c 17:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to disagree with Fr33kman's process for evaluating consensus, as I believe it goes against the purpose of the WP:3O process. When an uninvolved user takes it upon themselves to determine the consensus in a discussion, their role is much like that of an admin closing a deletion discussion: they act as a stand-in for the community at large, and by critically evaluating the arguments given, determine which side of the debate would be likely to hold out if the debate were moved to a broader forum. (If they feel that they cannot effectively gaugue how the community would act in a given situation, then they should probably refer the discussion to said broader forum.) This is done by evaluating the opinions given in the specific discussion in light of established community practices and rules, and additionally weighing any exceptional circumstances that apply to the specific situation. So yes, Fr33k is correct that a 3O provider is not meant to be a vote-counter, but they are similarly not meant to say "there's a dispute, so no consensus can possibly exist." (Also note that the comparison to the Hardy Boys is essentially an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument, and non-helpful here.)
As for this particular case, I see a majority opinion (merge) which matches community practice and rules ( WP:NOT#PLOT, WP:WAF, WP:OUTCOMES...), dissented by a minority (keep separate) which is arguing as their exceptional circumstance that the pages can be improved. So the question to be considered is whether this exceptional circumstance would be likely to hold up as deserving an exception if the merger was placed for discussion on a broad community forum. Since we are dealing with a claim of exceptionalness, the key concerns here are the practical (rather than ideological) ones. I see two cited above that appear relevant: how best to present information to our readers, and how to waste as little time duplicating effort as possible.
On the first of these, while the argument that individual articles on each book could eventually be better than the list has some merit, there has been broad community consensus in a large number of similar cases (historical debates regarding WP:EPISODE, specifically) that have decided that the context provided by a series page is better than decontextualized plot summary, and that this is a pressing enough concern to warrant merger even when the plot summary pages have encyclopedic potential as individual articles. General practice is to conduct these as "merges without prejudice", and to freely allow the recreation of the individual articles if/when they are rewritten in an encyclopedic fashion. So that the pages can be improved is unlikely to be deemed a valid claim for exception. The only remaining question that could affect the situation is how much effort would be wasted creating the list instead of improving the individual pages, but the answer there is "effectively none": an article on The Clique as a series will have to be created at some point anyway in order to have complete coverage of the topic, so we would not be creating a page that would later be rearranged out of existence, and the content that is in the individual book pages now is for the most part going to need completely rewritten in the final versions of those articles, so we run no risk of losing useful content. As such, no claim to exceptionality has been given here that would be likely to stand up to broader scrutiny, and the merge should go forward for those individual book pages which consist only of plot summary, though with the understanding that KittyRainbow is free to create them if she can find enough individualized information to support a separate high-quality article. -- erachima talk 03:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
My view is similar to erachima (merge without prejudice), but I'd like to point out that when people volunteer for article improvement to avoid a merger, please give them a month or two (not just a week) and regularly check on the progress. If there is no progress, then it is time to merge and quality wins; if there is progress, quality has already won. Per KittyRainbow's dedicated work on Best Friends for Never, the articles should be given more time than in usual merge debates. I say this because a sensible approach may result in better articles here, and the bulldozer approach should be reserved for the true stubborn and incorrigible fanboy strongholds. – sgeureka t• c 09:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I have just filed a request for page protection to prevent editing of this page until proper discussion and consensus can be reached about whether these books merit inclusion or not. A consensus needs to be reached here and then further addition/deletion in conflict with that consensus can be considered vandalism. Right now there is a childish tit for tat edit war going on that always stays just short of breaching 3RR. Mfield ( talk) 19:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Per a request from the admin who locked the page, I'm starting this topic so that we can reach consensus here regarding the addition of P.S. I Loathe You to the list of books in the series. For background and my view. The article for this book was deleted via AfD on 20 February 2008. Immediately after deletion, it was twice and CSDed both times before being salted. It has also been deleted and CSDed twice under the name P.S I Loathe You before salting.
On September 9, Ed Wood's Wig sent the article to deletion review, but the deletion was upheld as per WP:BK#Not yet published books, WP:CRYSTAL, and the lack of a truly verifiable publication date or that its even been written. On Template talk:Clique#Edit request, after similar edit warring over the link there also got the template locked, discussion over the link resulted in a consensus that it was far too soon to have the title (with or without a link) included in the template for the same reasons.
As the issue is all related, I feel the consensus from the AfD, DR, and the discussion on the template talk should all apply here and a link or mention of P.S. I Loathe You should also be left out until there actually is real evidence the book has been written and is being released in a relatively short time frame (not "maybe" in 5-6 months from now). As of now, Liss Harrison's own book list does NOT list this book [1] nor can I find any mention of it anywhere else on the site. That's a pretty clear sign to me that it doesn't need to be here either. -- AnmaFinotera ( talk · contribs) 21:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Please excuse me if this message makes no sense. I have the flu, I'm currently having trouble stringing words together, everything is a bit floaty. The book is written. It will be out next year. I think a sentence like "Harrison has finished writing the next book in the series, titled P.S. I Loathe You" is fine. Title should not be linked: redlinks are to encourage people to make the page. I said no link or mention in navbox as it is a navbox, it is for navigating, no point having something you cannot navigate to. But one sentence + cite in the article is good. That's all I wanted to say, I'm off now. I will be back later about the other stuff. Sorry about the delay. If that is too late, I understand. -- KittyRainbow ( talk) 15:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Alloy Entertainment’s 2008 Frankfurt Foreign Rights Guide says P.S. I Loathe You is scheduled for release in February 2009, gives a summary for it, and also says that "Little, Brown signed up books Nos. 9–12". (And that "the book has been translated into 16 languages"—should this be mentioned in either this article or that of the first book?) -- Kletta ( talk) 14:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
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