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A short time ago there was no mention of Mormon missionaries in this article, but that has been corrected. Since I brought that topic up a little while ago however, I have been thinking about what major doctrines or distinctions from other groups this article should cover which it doesn't already.
The only thing that comes to my mind is the Church's view of the fall of Adam, which seems like a major difference from other churches to me. Perhaps we should add it somewhere to the article? A sentence or a paragraph at most seems sufficient to me.
Anyway, if anyone thinks of anything else please chime in here. -- Lethargy 23:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the article should mention anything distinctive, but most things should be mentioned only very briefly, as Bytebear stated, there are articles for most of these topics. It's a challenge, since nobody will ever agree which LDS doctrines are most important and notable. But the purpose of this article, I think, is to point readers in the direction of doctrinal articles on every notable topic of LDS doctrine. So I think the best outline would be something in which every element of LDS doctrine and practice would have a place. I don't know what that is, though. Maybe the following is a start (this is not a heading outline):
COGDEN 08:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
keep the title. the way it is. the church of jesuschrist of the latter days saints. if we change the name we will limited the information. but if you keep the way it is, is allow to put more information about the church and it is easy to search under their name instead guessing which one is the title. chao
I like that outline. Shall I get started on a reorganization? - uriah923( talk) 22:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The unique and defining doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that Joseph Smith, Jr. and his successors received and continue to receive binding revelation from God in the same way that Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Peter and other biblical prophets did. All other doctrines, especially the more interesting ones are a byproduct of this. The current content says very little about JS, I think that the beliefs and practices section should lead with this.
How about this outline?
Key changes from outline above are addition of JS, movement of priesthood section right after metaphysics, addition of a two examples of continuous revelation. Ideally, each bullet point would have a reference to LDS scripture and / or a recent conference talk. BTW, does anyone know how to link directly to conference talks on LDS.org, is that even allowed? Also, what is "LGPT issues"? 74s181 12:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74s181 ( talk • contribs) 12:49, 2 January 2007
I beg you, Trödel, please don't make us go through the same discussion that you can read on this page. We had an agreement, there is no reason to change the text to a more controversial solution. -- Martin C. 17:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV issue aside, there is an accuracy issue here. The official position of various Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Episcopal groups that have actually taken a position on this subject (most churches have no official position) is that Mormonism is not part of the historical, apostolic tradition of Christianity. I don't personally know of any mainstream Christian church out there that has officially taken the more extreme position that Mormonism is not any form of Christianity. COGDEN 19:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Most Christians say other Christians are not "real" Christains. Only the Catholics are Christian to Catholics, same with Prodistants. I would argue that Mormons are more Christian, as they accept other Christian views as Christian, even if they go against their teachings.
I know I am risking making some people very unhappy - but the more I think about it the more I wonder - why do we even need to include this at all in the article - We should be tryign to explain what the church is and what it believes. There are other articles that compare the beliefs to other religions -- Trödel 23:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Please. When I cite my sources and give reasons for what I write, I'm get told that this is not the place for such an extensive explanation. When I don't, my text gets reverted because it's unverified and POV. Please decide which solution you want; you cannot keep a factually incorrect clause ("Much of Christianity views Mormonism...", should be "most") in the article. -- Martin C. 17:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
LOL, good point. I think the phrase "Some Christians view..." might work well. It makes no attempt to quantify numbers that probably can't be verified anyway. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 19:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I've replaced the much-edited text with the phrase "...some Christians view...". This seems to be accurate and grammatically correct. Given that we provide a link to Mormonism and Christianity, it seems sufficient.
I realize things have calmed down recently, but I'm sure it will come up again. How about the definition of Christian that Jesus Christ gave in John 13:34-35?
As a LDS, I love Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. One on one I am usually able to find common ground with any of the above. I suspect that Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. view LDS as Christians, but I agree that given the strong feelings on the matter some sort of distinction needs to be made. The defining issue is the Nicene creed. LDS are often called 'Mormons', personally I think the labels 'Mormon Christians' and 'Nicene Christians' work, but Nicene Christians don't like to have their Christianity qualified in that way. Well, for that matter, neither do I, but I can live with it. 74s181 11:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
If you are truly looking for a NPOV of what it means to be Christian, then please use the dictionary's definition of a Christian, rather than what other religions consider to be Christian. From dictionary.com we find the definition as being:
Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith. 2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country. 3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades. 4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity. 5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial. 6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian. –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity. 8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian. 9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren. 10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. 11. a male given name.
Obviously definitions 10 and 11 can be excluded when considering whether a religion is considered "Christian" or not. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, have a religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, try to live Christlike lives, are generally decent and respectable, humane people, who believe in Jesus Christ, and tries to live their lives according the the teachings of Jesus Christ. The way I read it, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are Christians. Web Woman 18:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I've just seen the whole issue about apostles being "spiritual witnesses" and "witnesses of the Living Christ" and have to agree with Trodel. It does seem a bit POV and "Mormon" to include an additional description of the office. If a casual reader wishes to know more about the office, he/she will click on the link. I would definitely support a removal of that phrase from the article. Pahoran513 23:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it is still the appropriate term though. Witnesses of Christ is better, but POV. I'll try to think of another term. Pahoran513 03:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This poster User talk:216.49.181.128 is (apparantly) posting from an official LDS location; if someone from the INTELLECTUAL RESERVE INC. is indeed editing then we must surmise that this is definite LDS POV. Where do we go from here? POV is not allowed under Wikipedia policy, no matter who is presenting it. I have a screenshot of the whois report if anyone wants me to post it here. Duke53 | Talk 02:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, maybe it is a POV vandal from the LDS church (I just looked at the edit history and agree with you), but we can't know if it is from a directive from the Church. It may just be a random employee doing the editing, the same as if he removed the content at home. However I'm not sure that this is the appropriate forum to discuss this. And how do you know it is from an LDS IP address? I'm honestly curious, not criticizing in the least. Let's not make an issue out of this--let's treat the IP the same as a regular user who makes the same edits. Pahoran513 03:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
one thing i'm a little confused about. isn't the new Jerusalem supplsed to be located within jackson county? the article seems to imply that they are in 2 seperate locations. Javawizard 23:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that women were given the priesthood. I'm more inclined to believe they thought they could exercise some priesthood power. I'm away on a business trip and won't be home until this weekend, but I recall reading in a book containing various writings of Mormon women, including one passage where an early prominent women (Eliza Snow maybe?) felt she was able to exercise the priesthood through the temple ordinances. I will look when I get home to come up with the reference, unless somebody beats me to it. I also recall hearing that women frequently were set apart to perform blessings, but I'm not sure I ever found a source to confirm that. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Women are given the Priesthood to do temple work only. It is not the same Priesthood given to the men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.32.68.211 ( talk • contribs)
To Bill and anon - Married women hold the priesthood jointly with their husbands; ie endowed women hold priesthood (or are annointed and in some cases ordained as priestesses), but they are not ordained, nor hold keys nor have authorization to act in directing church affairs as part of the priesthood. However, up until the middle of last century, women were allowed to stand in on baby blessings, pray over the sick, place anointed oil on the sick (but not perform the anointing ordinance) and more. I think President Hinckley's quote is good and accurate - those who understand the workings of the priesthood and church doctrine don't have an issue with it (and statistics I've seen support this, per discussions elsewhere. Roles are different, and they do hold eternal priesthood, yet they are not active as priesthood leaders in this life. The doctrines are clear, and no man can be exalted without his spouse's priesthood. The priesthood was not perfectly orgazined until the women portions were via the relief societty, according ot SMith. Women have to have a role in priesthood, however, most outside the church and many within the church don't take time to read the basic teachings on this in such works as Priesthood and church Government and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and as such misunderstand it. However, the quote is supported by stats on the matter. - Visorstuff 21:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
At the end of the "Worship Services" section is this:
Women usually attend wearing a bikini or other revealing swimsuit, while men wear slacks with or without a shirt. Children are also expected to come to church meetings wearing casual clothing.
It seems "out of place" (?) and probably incorrect. Someone with editing experience might want to correct it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.147.129.196 ( talk • contribs) 13:14, December 14, 2006 (UTC)
Don't forget one of the main rules of wikipedia. Fix whatever seems totally incorrect and be bold. Telepheedian 17:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I realize it is by-and-large a hopeless cause for this article to be anything other than what the mob-rule of LDS folk wants it to be, but don't you think it is a little ridiculous to have nothing but Wikilinks in the controversies section? CyberAnth 18:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I do disagree with a bulleted list - as this article is in much better status and I believe that bulleted lists in most cases decreases an article's readability. And it would simply duplicate an already long Controversies regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. Context is always better than lists. And I do agree that rebuttals from Mormon apologists are not wise, but the wording should reflect the differences between disagreements and misunderstandings. - Visorstuff 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I was looking back at some old edits and thought you'd all be interested to read an early, early version of this article. Very interesting how far we've come. - Visorstuff 00:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I just made a bunch of changes in an effort to get this article to a more managable size - and removed only 4kb from 75kb to 71kb. I think further efforts need to be made in this area even if it means more summarization and the creation of additional articles. -- Trödel 23:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the word "metaphysics" ought to be replaced with something else, actually it should probably just be removed altogether, it doesn't really fit very well. Isaac Crumm 04:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user (170.74.0.1) changed "Joseph Smith led the church until he was killed in 1844" to "Joseph Smith led the church until he was martyred in 1844". He also 'signed' the begining of the article.
Wrp103 reverted the change, with the comment "rv - bad POV edit". I agree that signing the article was a mistake, but I had also been considering changing "killed" to "martyred", I think it is appropriate.
The word "martyred" is not POV by any definition I can find. http://www.answers.com/topic/martyr says "One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle." Wikipedia says: "In the Christian context, a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death (suicide being seen as sinful), is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions." Joseph Smith made the ultimate sacrifice to seal his testimony.
So I changed it back to martyred and added a reference to D&C 135. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74s181 ( talk • contribs) 02:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
The reference to D&C 135 uses the term "martyrdom" but I didn't add it to prove that Joseph Smith was a martyr. The intent is to provide an eyewitness account of the event, the majority of statements in the reference are facts about the event which I don't believe are disputed by anyone (who, what, where, when, how, why). Sprinkled among these undisputed facts are some pretty strong opinions about Joseph Smith, but D&C 135 is not Wikipedia, it is a reference being cited in Wikipedia. As with any reference, the reader will have to decide for himself what he thinks about it. 74s181 11:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Folks there are multiple issues here. Words and phrases used to describe his death could include: Killed, Murdered, Martyred, Died in a gunfight, Assassinated, Died in a revenge killing, Manslaughtered, Lynched by a mob, Causualty of a riot, Died in armed conflict with a militia and more. Wikipedia assigns POV to many of these terms.
"Killed" is what is the most neutral - the fact is that he was killed. "Murdered" is appropriate, as there was a murder trial. Assasinated is appropriate, as he was a presidential candidate. "Martyr" could be debated as he fought back, and we don't know all of the reasons for the killing. Was it political due to his presidency bid? (he is listed in some books as the first presidential candidate in the US that was "assasinated") was it over slavery? Polygamy? Religion? Revenge? Mobocracy due to power struggles, militial tribunals, destruction of press, mayoral policies, church organization, secrecy, changes to masonic ritual, and the legality of killing mormons in missouri and more have all been cited as reasons why people hated him and would want to kill him. So to say he was only martyred is a mistake, as he was also assasinated, murdered, tortured and nearly beheaded. Let's let Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. sort out those issues, and keep it simple in this article. It should read kill here and perhaps a link to the sub-article explaining these arguments. Lets just keep it simple, as his death can become quite complex depending on the readers point of view. - Visorstuff 19:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have changed it back to 'martyred'. I made a similar change to the Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. page and added a section for opposing viewpoints. 'Classification of Joseph Smith, Jr. as a martyr'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74s181 ( talk • contribs) 15:27, 14 January 2007
I'm not sure why, but Bytebear changed GutenMorning's "death" edit back to "martyrdom", then changed it again to "death" two hours later. There are two sentences right next to each other that could use a form of 'martyr':
Saying "...both of them were martyred by a mob..." doesn't sound right to me, unfortunately my last class in english composition was 30+ years in the past and I wasn't paying much attention.
Using a form of 'martyr' in the second sentence as in "..aftermath of the martyrdom..." sounds better than "...martyred by a mob..." in the first sentence but still seems a bit clumsy.
I think one of these needs to use the more descriptive "martyr" terminology, it is more accurate and I think we agreed it was NPOV. 74s181 13:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I happened to be 'driving by' and changed it back to "martyrdom", because I didn't see any disagreeing discussion here since my last posting in February. 74s181 02:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
a recent edit added several paragraphs on the origins of Native Americans. It does seem like a worthy belief to mention, but his edits are extremely POV and somewhat inaccurate. Can someone come up with something more neutral (and shorter) as it really belongs either in Controversies article, or in the Book of Mormon article. Bytebear 07:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately the size of the article is going in the opposite direction it needs to. The article has grown 6% since January 4th when I last attempted to consolidate items and move details to sub articles. Additionally, the introduction is full of CJC lingo and no longer reads neutrally (imho). Finally, Joseph Smith has replaced Smith contrary to the style guide. -- Trödel 03:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for pointing to the wrong page, it is at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Subsequent uses of names. I agree with both these suggestions. One can introduce complex topics concisely and still be neutral. The key is that one should accurately describe the church and its teachings without commenting on whether they are right or wrong. This edit attempts to do just that in explaining the Plan of Salvation. Here is another example on the politically charged family/same-sex marriage issue. Sorry to use my own edits but I know them best :) -- Trödel 02:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that references to a highly documented event in the history of the early mormon church in Utah is continually removed from the article? If there is to be a section about the History of the church, and this article is to be unbiased rather than the evangelical tool of the Mormon church, as it appears to be, then the entire history MUST be presented, NOT just the good, but the bad as well. This bears fully on the history of the church, and should not be removed. Mountain Meadows Massacre. I am not suggesting the entire story be rehashed but a brief sentence ought to be in the article with a link to the well verified and supported wiki entry on the subject.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.55.80.32 ( talk • contribs)
See discussion immediately above this one. There is no room in this article for detail on any topic, positive or negative, history included. Most sections give a very high level overview and refer to another article. That is why there is a separate
History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article, which does mention the Mountain Meadows massacre. The goal right now is to move material from this article to other articles, not to add more info to this article. Only the most significant, high-level events or info should be in this article.
Although the
Mountain Meadows massacre (which, as you can see, has its own article) was a horrible attrocity, it was an act of individuals, not an official act of the Church, at least there doesn't appear to be any evidence that it was ordered or condoned by Brigham Young or any other senior church official. Compare this to the
Mormon War which was an official act against the church by various government officials, up to and including Missouri Governor
Lilburn Boggs. Many of the Mormon War attrocities and their connection to government officials are well documented in various eye witness accounts in documents that still exist today, along with the original
Extermination Order signed by the governor himself. This long string of events only gets half of a sentence in this article.
74s181
05:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I should point out that according to Will Bagley, who wrote the book "Blood of Prohets: The Mountain Meadow Massacre", he presents evidence that Brigham Young did in fact give the "kill orders" for the Fauncher Party massacre. He also provides clear evidence that Mormons participated in the massacre, for which only John D. Lee was held resposible and executed. He draws from a recovered Mormon diary, that Fawn Brodie (the current expert on the massacre, and LDS member) did not have or know about when she wrote her book. 69.10.215.75 20:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
A new user, GutenMorning made a number of edits, most of which were reverted. None of the edits had an edit summary. One of the edits was a section from Church History about the death of Joseph Smith. The edit summary of the revert called it "obviously vandalism", but I disagree.
I agree that the addition probably should not have been added as part of the article, but could have very easily gone into a footnote. I realize that this page gets vandalized on a regular basis, and I'm as guilty as the next one at summarily reverting edits. But (IMHO) we should also remember to take it easy on the new editors. We were all newbies at some point. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
A recent edit by 84.146.236.121 was reverted on the grounds of POV push:
O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness..." ( Jacob 3:8-9).
Although there is some POV, it balances out an equally (IMHO) POV edit that talks about the Nephite/Lamanite skin color in the Book of Mormon, which is off-topic, since the section is really about African-Americans not getting the priesthood for a while.
It seems to me that we should either add this back in w/o the POV comments, or remove the off-topic paragraphs about skin color in the Book of Mormon.
Thoughts? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 18:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above. Note that the Blacks and Mormonism article gives all of the same details. The intrinsic symbolism of "white" as a symbol of purity and being washed "white through the blood of the Lamb" can't be adequately explained in a brief summary article such as this, so why mislead and confuse the reader? Reiddp 07:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
is there any criticism of Mormon beliefs and practices? why was it not included on the page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.56.216.83 ( talk) 13:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
Thank you. Can anyone shed more light on the allegations that they teach that some people will live on their own planets or something along those lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.216.83 ( talk • contribs)
I'm sorry, but I find this article way below Wiki standards. The POV is severely in question. How can there be no mention at all of scientific objections in regards to archeology and genetics, except to a link to a separate article? I would expect an article on the books of Daniel or Jonah to include questions as to their authenticity, and articles on the books on the Gospels bring up historical criticism and questions of authorship. Why is the Mormon religion so special that it doesn't include scientific objections? Why suddenly is basic science relegated to a sub-article?- Abdul Muhib —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abdul Muhib ( talk • contribs) 06:05, 1 May 2007.
I haven't been around in a while. I don't really like the direction the opening paragraphs have gone. It seems we have moved backwards compared to the clarity and professionalism of the introduction around a year ago. Here is how it read April 17, 2006:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, widely known as the "LDS Church" or the "Mormon Church", is the largest and most well-known denomination within the Latter Day Saint movement (a form of Restorationism). The church is headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. Latter-day Saints regard Jesus Christ as the head of their church and count themselves as Christians, but do not consider themselves part of the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant traditions. Rather, they believe the church to be the restoration of the original church established by Jesus Christ on Earth.
Compare that to the current:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a church with American origins that claims to be the restoration of the original Christian church founded by Jesus during his earthly ministry.
Sometimes referred to as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, the church teaches that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1820 and called him to be a prophet and to restore His Church on the earth, including essential elements that were lost from Christianity between Paul's death and the First Council of Nicaea. These elements included scriptures previously unknown to western civilization, the calling of Twelve Apostles as special witnesses of Christ's divinity, and the restoration of priesthood authority. The Church was organized by Joseph Smith and five others in Fayette, New York on April 6, 1830, shortly after the first publication of the Book of Mormon.
An international organization with a majority of worldwide members living outside of the United States, the LDS Church has its world headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah, where 96-year-old Gordon B. Hinckley serves as its 15th President and is considered to be the world's modern prophet and earthly voice for Jesus Christ. The church sends tens of thousands of male and female missionaries throughout the world, and in 2005 reported a worldwide membership of over 12.5 million.
I don't know, maybe everyone likes it better the new way? But I doubt it. Some of the changes were largely due to a crusade to stamp out any "consider themselves Christian" language on the part of one or two sensitive LDS. Since the discussion ultimately ruled out the word "Christian" it was determined to give a summary of the beliefs instead. Hopefully that discussion has cooled off and they can now see the error of their ways and we can put that back in. And then there's a year's worth of the natural drift that occurs with multiple authors constantly editing.
Anyway, is there anyone besides me that thinks the 2006 version is better? Novel-Technology 07:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
From my comments on the much vs most "Christian" talking points, I will add this here.
"If you are truly looking for a NPOV of what it means to be Christian, then please use the dictionary's definition of a Christian, rather than what other religions consider to be Christian. From dictionary.com we find the definition as being:
Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith. 2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country. 3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades. 4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity. 5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial. 6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian. –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity. 8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian. 9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren. 10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. 11. a male given name.
Obviously definitions 10 and 11 can be excluded when considering whether a religion is considered "Christian" or not. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, have a religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, try to live Christlike lives, are generally decent and respectable, humane people, who believe in Jesus Christ, and tries to live their lives according the the teachings of Jesus Christ. The way I read it, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are Christians.Web Woman 18:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)"
Instead of qualifying that they "consider themsleves Christian", would it not be more appropriate to call them a Christian religion as per the definition? Web Woman 15:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
No, it wouldn't. Novel-Technology 15:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem with using this definition to prove that Mormons are Christian is that the Christ of the Mormons is a completely different person, both in nature and in his teachings, from the Christ of other religions. Mormons believe that Christs' teachings were lost or corrupted until the revelations of Joseph Smith; while the other religions that call themselves Christian follow these supposedly corrupted teachings. Mormons do not believe that Jesus Christ was True God and True Man, while this is a fundamental teaching of the other religions that call themselves Christian. The Catholic and Protestant sects of Christianity disagree vehemently over fundamental aspects of theology, but have in common a definite core belief set (of which C.S. Lewis' _Mere Christianity_ is one attempt to codify) and a set of documents (most books of the bible) which they agree to be uncorrupt and reliable. Mormons do not hold to this core belief set and hold the Bible to be corrupt. This is why most Catholics and Protestants can be relied upon to stop arguing with each other just long enough to assert in unison that the Mormons are not of their religion. This has nothing to do with whether or not Mormons are humane or virtuous not.
It should be noted that the Muslims also claim to follow Christ, but, like Mormons, hold their own view of his nature, purpose, and teachings. Should Muslims be called Christian because they claim to follow Christ as a prophet? R.E.S.A. 19:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I think if any mention is going to be made of Kolob, it should at least be accurate. (For what it's worth, I don't think it's appropriate to have a mention of Kolob on the page about the Church itself. Maybe on a page about Latter Day Saint theology, but not on one about the legal structure called TCOJCOLDS.)
Anyway, the Church does not teach that God the Father and Jesus Christ "live on a planet named Kolob". This is a favourite misquote of anti-Mormon types, who fail to actually report what the Book of Abraham actually says about Kolob. Please--no more statements that God lives on a planet named Kolob, 'cos we all know that no one actually teaches or believes that! SESmith 02:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with the phrase "The Church teaches ..." about Heavenly Mother. Yes, her existence is implied in Gospel Principles because it talks about our heavenly parents. President Kimball mentions her during the cited talk, and she is again implied in the hymn "O My Father". IMHO those citations show that it is widely believed, but not that the church teaches. I don't recall any church lesson that teaches her existence.
Maybe I'm picking nits, but it seems to me that the article currently implies that Mormons are actively teaching others about that doctrine, when in fact, it is much more subtle. IMHO, an official doctrine of the church is a concept that all are expected to believe. If somebody has problems accepting the existence of Heavenly Mother, it will have absolutely no effect on their membership, ability to serve in leadership positions, etc.
Is it just me, or am I making sense? Thoughts? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The article now includes the text:
This is not entirely true as I understand it. If a child dies at 9, are endowments performed? Since the temple rituals are not given until someone is an adult, it would be odd that a child (over the age of 8, but not yet an adult) would be endowed, and certainly not sealed to a spouse. There needs to be more distinction on age specific ordinances. Bytebear 18:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Under "God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost", the last part of the first paragraph, it reads "...and does not officially use the symbol of the Christian cross." This kind of implies that rather than discouraging the use of the symbol, the church simply doesn't use it. I think it would be more appropriate if it read somthing like "...and discourages the use of the symbol of the Christian cross." Sorry to make a big deal out of it, but to me, a cross is like having a picture of the car your brother died in. Shouldn't you find a nice picture of your brother instead?
It isn't a huge change, but I'm not that great at expressing myself with words, so someone else could probably do it more correctly than me. Besides that, rather than simply making the change, I wanted to have a visible reason. I also apologise if I'm doing somthing horribly wrong here...I don't edit Wikipedia very often.( 207.183.175.31 16:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC))
This phrasing seems like it could be cleaned up, or at least made less ambiguous. It seems to be hinting that the church doesn't really have Jesus Christ as its central focus. Everything I've heard from the church officially (i.e., in General conference (Latter Day Saints) addresses) seems to indicate that the focus is a matter of fact, rather than idea. I was unwilling to edit this myself because of my relative inexperience with Wikipedia, but this seems like a fairly important (if small) issue. If anyone could provide proper phrasing and citation to indicate Christ's centrality as fact (or, as the case may somehow be, fiction), I'd appreciate it. - Infiniteseries 04:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I know the opening paragraphs have been finely tuned, but there is a gaping whole regarding what the church's stated mission is. It doesn't seem odd, out of place, or pov to include it, so I have placed it at the end of the opening paragraph. What do you think?-- TrustTruth 17:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a chart showing the various schisms of the Latter Day Saint movement. It is a nice chart, but I don't think it belongs in this article. Bytebear 04:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
JRN 01:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The introduction's last line says:
I don't think humanitarian cooperation with other churches is "recent". Can I assume it is a dirivative of the idea that the church is "trying to pass itself off as Christian?" I think it's fine to say that the LDS Church has done many humanitarian endeavours with both Christians and non-Christians alike, and show some references. I know the whole "Christian" think is touchy, and I think the intro does a very good job of stepping around land mines, but this line of text seems awkward, like the only way Christian faiths accept Mormons is if they are giving money to a cause, which they would just as easily accept Jews or Hindus, etc. Bytebear 22:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"You cannot make that claim. Other churches feel they are the 1830 church. avoid POV" [4]
It was a goofy edit and one I would have reverted too, but what is going on with this reason? -- Masamage ♫ 03:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
First I'll start that I meet this wonderful man and the "GOD" subject came up and I was raised in a pentalcastle church and he is lds. I would like to know put in simple terms, what is the differance between these two beliefs? Please make it short and simple because I am sooooo confused. Thank you 68.118.208.212 07:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC) and what are these(~) for and why four of them? 68.118.208.212 07:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I noted your inquiry on the differences between the theology and practice of
Latter-day Saints and
Pentecostals. Wikipedia has many articles on religious traditions, and the LDS community has been particularly active here. Many of these articles, including
Mormonism and Christianity, may be of use to you. However, I believe a brief summary might give you some topics to discuss with your new friend.
Under the assumption that both of you are well versed and take an active role in your own religions, here are some things you might have in common.
There are a number of religious issues which you, and others less familiar with the LDS faith, may find quite different from your own perspective. These are doctrinally based.
Given these differences, you might find your friend's activities, customs and attitudes different in many ways. For example:
I hope you enjoy getting to know each other. Best wishes. WBardwin 08:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
It is important to represent the movement and make sure if someone was seeking other organizations they can be found quickly. None of these organizations are obscure and it will help show other parts of the movement in a NPOV manner. Jcg5029 23:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
God the Father is understood to be the father in premortal life of the spirits of all who inhabit this earth.[8] He is considered both the spirit father and natural father of Jesus with Mary, thus inheriting from the Father power over death.[9] Belief in such a figure is common among members, and she has also been mentioned in talks by church officials, as well as in the hymns of the church.
These sentences make no sense. I think that something has been inadvertently removed in the second sentence (possibly about Mary and/or the relationship of Jesus to God the Father), but I don't know enough about Mormon doctrine to reconstruct. Vgranucci 18:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Totally not appropriate. That needs to be merged to the temples article if it's merged anywhere. -- Masamage ♫ 23:40, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm questioning the abundant use of doctrine and covenants as references throughout this page. WP:A says that scriptures cannot be used as references. I understand the need for use in clarification "as in D&C ### states this" but I don't think D&C can be used to make claims as the D&C are considered scriptures. Am I correct in this assumption? JRN 21:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this evening that an editor changed all the capitalized "C" in Church to small "c" church. This previous use was a proper use of the English language. I suspect that the motivation was some form of political correctness; however, it is misguided. When referrin to the Church in this article one is referring to the LDS church; it is not referring to The church. Having a capital "c" does not infer any degree of truth, or superiority to any other church, but rather refers to the topic. I may have made hasty assumptions and would like to be corrected if I am wrong; Sesmith can you please explain your edits? -- Storm Rider (talk) 06:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I reviewed the article on Manual of Style; not surprisingly the "new" recommendations were those of a single editor with no discussion. I have reverted that editor's edits and referred it to the discussion page. It will be best to discuss the issue and ensure that rules of style are used across the board and not just for a single group. You will note that another editor has made a complaint prior to my review. -- Storm Rider (talk) 04:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
[At this point, the discussion on this issue was picked up at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints).]
I commented out the Mormon denomination tree graphic at the bottom of the page. This graphic shows a chart of various splits from the movement started by Joseph Smith, Jr. and is more appropriately displayed in the Latter Day Saint movement article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.167.171.20 ( talk) 15:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC).
Anyone know what's going on with the Ensign pic? It's acting like there's a nowiki tag around it. -- Masamage ♫ 22:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
An anon IP editor just dropped the "Articles of Faith" into the Mormonism article with a rather obnoxious demand that his edit not be deleted. The obnoxiousness of the edit summary aside, I think he makes a good point... Mormonism should describe the principles held in common among all those who are called "Mormons".
In truth, I didn't know until a month or so ago that there was more to Mormonism than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a few splinter polygamy-practicing sects. I didn't know that there were "Utah Mormons" and "Missouri Mormons". I still don't fully know what the difference is between the two.
Seems to me that the Mormonism article would be a great place to discuss the Mormonism movement which includes but is not limited to the LDS church. This article should not be allowed to monopolize the discussion of Mormonism as the real Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints tends to do in the real world.
So... I would propose that we move the entire "Beliefs and practices" section into the Mormonism article and reduce the section in this article to a discussion of how the beliefs and practices of the LDS church differs from that of the common beliefs and practices shared among all Mormons.
I will eventually propose that Mormonism be the primary article and that articles on the LDS church and other Mormon churches be subsidiary articles of that article. This would require a complete rewrite of the Mormonism article which, at the moment, is a huge mess.
Now, since I've admitted to being pretty much ignorant of Mormonism, I am willing to believe that I may be totally off-the-mark in my proposal. If you think so, please feel free to explain why this is so.
-- Richard 17:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I also note that there is a Latter Day Saint movement article which seems to be devoted to timelines of divisions among LDS sects. Can someone explain what the difference is between the Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism? Which one is the best candidate for being the primary article?
-- Richard 17:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I checked an older revision of this article. It used to say "Largely due to the convincing power of this book, which Smith said he translated by a heavenly power, the church rapidly gained a large following who viewed Smith as a prophet."
In this diff, 199.106.103.254 changed it to read "Largely due to the convincing power which comes from the Lord's spirit which accompanies this book, which Smith translated by a heavenly power, the church rapidly gained a large following with Smith as a prophet like Moses, Abraham, and Isaac in Christ's church anciently."
I have reverted 199.106.103.254's edits twice. My version reads "the church rapidly gained a large following who viewed Smith as a prophet", deleting "largely due to the convincing power of this book" entirely.
I don't think we can know how convincing the Book of Mormon is/was. Oftentimes, it is the personal charisma and teaching of individuals that is convincing. People often come to Christ through the personal testimony and witness of individuals not because a book is "convincing". If this were not true, we could simply put a Bible and/or a Book of Mormon in the hands of every individual on this globe and thereby conver the world in one fell swoop. Or we could force schoolchildren to read the entire Bible and ensure their salvation forever.
I know that various LDS editors will want to raise up the Book of Mormon for glorification but this is an encyclopedia. Let's keep the text encyclopedic.
-- Richard 16:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot more about homosexuality than wanting to fornicate with those of your own gender. Many homosexuals in the church live their lives in complete accord with the church’s teachings. Focusing on sex misrepresents the LGBT population in the church. Also, there is no indication that the church leaders deny a homosexual orientation. They do say it is not inborn and that it could possibly be changed, but they don’t say it was chosen or that it needs to be changed. They expect the same behavior of homosexuals as heterosexuals. Almost every single condemnation of homosexual activity is accompanied with a condemnation of extramarital activities. To say the church has condemned homosexual behavior in particular is wrong. Joshuajohanson 16:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The church's Articles of Faith have been copied wholesale into the article several times, and I have deleted them citing Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources. There's no need to copy the Articles of Faith anyway, since all the topics therein are discussed elsewhere in the article, and the Scripture section mentions them and citation to the Articles of Faith (Latter Day Saints) Wikipedia article, where a person can learn more. Moreover, the AofF has never been considered a definitive or complete statement of LDS beliefs: it's sole purpose, from the moment Smith included it in the Wentworth letter, has been to serve as a proselytizing tool, which makes it inappropriate to cite verbatim as if it were the church's creed, even if there were no Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources policy. COGDEN 18:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I seem to have gotten confused and re-instated a vandalistic edit rather than removing it as I intended. I must have gotten confused somewhere as to what 156.45.254.11's edit was doing. Somehow, I thought he was adding vandalism rather than reverting it and so I reverted him which put the vandalism back. My bad. -- Richard 19:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Do we have to list every single type of sexual activity the church teaches against with a link on how to do it? The section itself is an example of erotic readings the church opposes. There is a reason the church isn't so graphic in its teachings, and our representation of the law of chastity should reflect the church's reverance for the subject. Otherwise, it leaves the wrong impression that the church approves of (or worse uses) such graphic speech. Also, instead of a bunch of thou shalt nots, can we have a bit more thou shalts, like let virtue garnish thy thoughts and stuff like that. Saying the church prohibits certain thoughts seems extreme. Also, there is very little information on what is allowed to happen in the bedroom of a married couple, and I don't think ambiguity on the church's position on that deserves to be on the front page. Joshuajohanson 23:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I think For the Strength of Youth could be quoted on this topic. See Sexual Purity
True to the Faith is also the closest thing there is to a summarized "official doctrine" (outside of Gen Conf and the Scriptures) of the church on many topics. BTW, see Lavina Fielding Anderson's interesting take on this issue in the Winter 2006 issue of Dialogue. Some quotes from Chastity
However see also:
Which implies that thoughts, although they are a "sin," aren't necessarily breaking the law of chastity in the strictest sense, but the pathway to temptation and breaking the law. How about something like:
I would take out what is allowed in marriage as there is no official doctrine on the subject. I think this is more closely aligned with that I would call "doctrine." And it clearly outlines that the "law of chastity" tends to include a more expansive view of sexual sin, standards of conduct, and advice on prevention. -- Trödel 19:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Noting significant history of racism and racist doctrines throughout the majority of its history as is clearly apparent from content exposed at Blacks_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement. NI4D 04:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Storm rider reverted my revert of the image caption about the first (and thus far only) black general authority with an edit summary that asked "How many Asians and Latinos?". The question should be "What's the point that we are trying to make?"
We should look beyond the caption to the article text which reads "Prior to 1978, black men were barred from being ordained to the priesthood and entering the religion's temples; in 1978, church president Spencer W. Kimball announced a revelation reversing this policy. (See Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.)"
Presumably, the point of the image and the caption is to underline the point that black men are now eligible for ordination to the priesthood even to point of achieving the rank of general authority.
However, in
Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we learn that "In 1997, there were approximately 500,000 black members of the church (about 5% of the total membership), mostly in Africa, Brazil and the Caribbean." It is reasonable to point out that 5% of all LDS members are black but something less than 5% are general authorities. How many general authorities are there? Presumably there are more than 20. (Somebody educate me, please.)
Whether this is due to lingering racism or due to the fact that it takes more than 30 years to develop a class of black LDS priests to the caliber of being general authorities is in the realm of OR. We should leave that judgment up to the reader. We should neither indict the LDS church for racism nor should we exonerate it with a whitewash. Doing either violates NPOV.
-- Richard 17:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict, inserting my response to Storm Rider above Joshuajohanson's comment)
Putting all this discussion of racism aside, which I think is way beyond the scope of this summary article, the way the caption now reads says that Martins was "the first general authority of African descent". This is a problem, because it somewhat misleadingly implies that there have been others. I'm changing the language "The church had a black general authority, Helvécio Martins, from 1990 to 1995." That seems neutral enough. COGDEN 17:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The lead sentence of the General authority article states "a general authority is a member of a select body of approximately 100 men with administrative and ecclesiastical authority over the church". However, if you look at Section 2 "Composition and distinction from General Officers", the table suggests that there are many more general authorities (just add up the number of people in all the rows). Except User:Joshuajohanson informs us that only the first two Quorums of Seventy are general authorities. But, if each Quorum of Seventy has 70 members, then we have 140+ general authorities which contradicts the lead sentence (unless you consider 140+ to be approximately 100). In that case, would you buy this $100 bill from me for approximately 100 dollars?
Something is broken here and I don't know enough to determine how to fix it. Would somebody who does know please fix it?
-- Richard 20:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this paragraph ends with, "but it has cooperated with other churches in promoting humanitarian and moral causes.". I think it would be better to say, "while allowing others to worship how, where or what they may." This is a paraphrasing of the 11th article of faith and I think makes clearer what the church is about. The original sounds as if the LDS church only admits there are other faiths when they are all trying to help someone. Mynty 01:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)mynty 5 May 2007
I just transferred the following statement from the article page:
Overlooking the misspelling, does anyone have a reference that all Mission Presidents are paid? Also, Missionaries are not paid to serve missions, but are requested to save a sufficent amount prior to their missions. In addition, as stated, families and wards pay for monthly upkeep. This is different from the church paying for it. Thoughts? -- Storm Rider (talk) 23:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This whole area seems a bit rife with OR. I personally know several past mission presidents and not one of them were paid to serve. What I find repugnant about the current language is that providing the use of a car is called "being paid" to serve. This is what we call "spin" and is not factual. Being paid, being on the payroll, is I will hire you to do a certain function and I will pay you a salary plus benefits. Also, attempting to classify the young men and women of the church as being "paid" is simply a falsehood. I can assure you that the Church did not pay for my mission, my son's mission, and any other person I know who served a mission. The vast majority of missionaries save, if not their entire mission cost, then a large portion of it. I am aware of some missionaries who saved lesser amounts and the majority of the funds were received from the donations of others in their home ward, but his is not the same thing as being "paid" by the church.
In addition, do we have any hard facts for this? Stating it is found in church literature is just too vague particularly when it conflicts so badly with my personal knowledge and daily life experiences. -- Storm Rider (talk) 06:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I changed back the description of the pre-1978 policy on blacks and the priesthood to refer to "blacks", rather than "men of African descent". Actually, it was blackness that was the factor. Someone, for example, with Egyptian, Moroccan, or South African heritage (someone they might have called a "white African") could have the priesthood so long as they had no known black-skinned ancestors. Of course, this was all part of the problem the church faced in the 70s, since we know now, based on genetic evidence, that everyone has at least some African ancestry if you go back far enough, especially people whose ancestors have historically lived near black people. COGDEN 22:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
In the Hugh B. Brown biography published by his son (not the one published by Deseret Book), Brown discusses this issue. During the 60's the First Presidency and the Twelve discussed allowing blacks to be ordained to the priesthood; however, because two of the Brethren did not support the action, the church remained frozen. After their passing all worthy males were allowed to hold the priesthood. As Visor demonstrates, this is not a clearly simple issue of racisim. Personally, I believe there were individual who may have been motivated by racial prejudice parading as doctrine. I also believe there were individuals who were convinced by doctrine that priesthood was only to be given to specific tribes; that was the doctrine of God for literally centuries within the covenant people. -- Storm Rider (talk) 23:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
From some of the account's I've read, Kimball was at the alter praying when he started dictating a revelation, which the brethren scrambled to write. They weren't expecting it to come at the time. Some claimed that angelic beings were present, including at least three past presidents of the church, including wilford woodruff (recognized by Legrand Richards) and possibly Jesus. The official declaration is that a revelation was receieved, it just doesn't provide the content of said revelation. OD 1 is a little different, as we do have the vision account by Woodruff, where he was shown what would happen if polygamy was not abandoned. But this is not a simple vision account, but rather a stated revelation through Kimball. See for example this quote from Adventures of a Church Historian by Leonard Arrington Pages 176-177:
You guys should check out "Mormonism's Negro Policy: Social and Historical Origins." It talks about the exact circumstances under which the policy was originally created, going into a lot of detail from church documents, anti-church documents, letters, and journal entries from the time. It turns out to have done because a lot of Mormons were using their religion as a tool for abolitionism, and that kept getting them tar-and-feathered and made people think that the Mormons were going to forcibly bring up the slaves to fight against their masters. So basically the church went wheeling backwards from racial politics and told everyone not to baptise blacks at the present time. Then Joseph Smith died, without any official work having been done to figure out this policy. The book describes in detail the process of people coming up with stuff like the Curse to make sense of what, without doctrine behind it, looked like outright racism. It's a fascinating book, and was in fact published in the mid-1970s, when everyone was unhappy about the policy but before it was repealed. You should give it a look. I think it has some info we could really use. -- Masamage ♫ 01:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought this was resolved some months ago, but...
For those who keep inserting the claim that Joseph Smith taught that God's physical body was near the planet/star/celestial body named Kolob, please provide a reference. What the canonized Book of Abraham actually says about Kolob is this:
"And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. • • • And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same border as that upon which thou standest. • • • If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me. • • • But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning."
I can see where you could interpret these statements as suggesting what you are stating, but it is by no means clear or settled that these statements are to be taken in their literal, physical sense. The article on Kolob has a good summary of the various viewpoints on this scripture.
In an introductory article such as this one, I hardly think it's appropriate to introduce something and present it as the undisputed teaching of the church when in fact it is a relatively obscure doctrinal topic, and one where the very meaning is in dispute. - SESmith 23:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
"... Kolob represents Jesus Christ rather than a physical object and location in this universe. The symbolic interpretation was explained by Hugh Nibley in The Temple and The Cosmos (see Kolob, time and temples). Advocates of [this] symbolic interpretation believe it harmonizes better with other Mormon beliefs, and with beliefs in the greater Christian community, as it does not require that God have a physical throne within this universe."
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A short time ago there was no mention of Mormon missionaries in this article, but that has been corrected. Since I brought that topic up a little while ago however, I have been thinking about what major doctrines or distinctions from other groups this article should cover which it doesn't already.
The only thing that comes to my mind is the Church's view of the fall of Adam, which seems like a major difference from other churches to me. Perhaps we should add it somewhere to the article? A sentence or a paragraph at most seems sufficient to me.
Anyway, if anyone thinks of anything else please chime in here. -- Lethargy 23:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the article should mention anything distinctive, but most things should be mentioned only very briefly, as Bytebear stated, there are articles for most of these topics. It's a challenge, since nobody will ever agree which LDS doctrines are most important and notable. But the purpose of this article, I think, is to point readers in the direction of doctrinal articles on every notable topic of LDS doctrine. So I think the best outline would be something in which every element of LDS doctrine and practice would have a place. I don't know what that is, though. Maybe the following is a start (this is not a heading outline):
COGDEN 08:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
keep the title. the way it is. the church of jesuschrist of the latter days saints. if we change the name we will limited the information. but if you keep the way it is, is allow to put more information about the church and it is easy to search under their name instead guessing which one is the title. chao
I like that outline. Shall I get started on a reorganization? - uriah923( talk) 22:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The unique and defining doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that Joseph Smith, Jr. and his successors received and continue to receive binding revelation from God in the same way that Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Peter and other biblical prophets did. All other doctrines, especially the more interesting ones are a byproduct of this. The current content says very little about JS, I think that the beliefs and practices section should lead with this.
How about this outline?
Key changes from outline above are addition of JS, movement of priesthood section right after metaphysics, addition of a two examples of continuous revelation. Ideally, each bullet point would have a reference to LDS scripture and / or a recent conference talk. BTW, does anyone know how to link directly to conference talks on LDS.org, is that even allowed? Also, what is "LGPT issues"? 74s181 12:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74s181 ( talk • contribs) 12:49, 2 January 2007
I beg you, Trödel, please don't make us go through the same discussion that you can read on this page. We had an agreement, there is no reason to change the text to a more controversial solution. -- Martin C. 17:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV issue aside, there is an accuracy issue here. The official position of various Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Episcopal groups that have actually taken a position on this subject (most churches have no official position) is that Mormonism is not part of the historical, apostolic tradition of Christianity. I don't personally know of any mainstream Christian church out there that has officially taken the more extreme position that Mormonism is not any form of Christianity. COGDEN 19:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Most Christians say other Christians are not "real" Christains. Only the Catholics are Christian to Catholics, same with Prodistants. I would argue that Mormons are more Christian, as they accept other Christian views as Christian, even if they go against their teachings.
I know I am risking making some people very unhappy - but the more I think about it the more I wonder - why do we even need to include this at all in the article - We should be tryign to explain what the church is and what it believes. There are other articles that compare the beliefs to other religions -- Trödel 23:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Please. When I cite my sources and give reasons for what I write, I'm get told that this is not the place for such an extensive explanation. When I don't, my text gets reverted because it's unverified and POV. Please decide which solution you want; you cannot keep a factually incorrect clause ("Much of Christianity views Mormonism...", should be "most") in the article. -- Martin C. 17:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
LOL, good point. I think the phrase "Some Christians view..." might work well. It makes no attempt to quantify numbers that probably can't be verified anyway. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 19:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I've replaced the much-edited text with the phrase "...some Christians view...". This seems to be accurate and grammatically correct. Given that we provide a link to Mormonism and Christianity, it seems sufficient.
I realize things have calmed down recently, but I'm sure it will come up again. How about the definition of Christian that Jesus Christ gave in John 13:34-35?
As a LDS, I love Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. One on one I am usually able to find common ground with any of the above. I suspect that Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. view LDS as Christians, but I agree that given the strong feelings on the matter some sort of distinction needs to be made. The defining issue is the Nicene creed. LDS are often called 'Mormons', personally I think the labels 'Mormon Christians' and 'Nicene Christians' work, but Nicene Christians don't like to have their Christianity qualified in that way. Well, for that matter, neither do I, but I can live with it. 74s181 11:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
If you are truly looking for a NPOV of what it means to be Christian, then please use the dictionary's definition of a Christian, rather than what other religions consider to be Christian. From dictionary.com we find the definition as being:
Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith. 2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country. 3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades. 4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity. 5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial. 6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian. –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity. 8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian. 9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren. 10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. 11. a male given name.
Obviously definitions 10 and 11 can be excluded when considering whether a religion is considered "Christian" or not. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, have a religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, try to live Christlike lives, are generally decent and respectable, humane people, who believe in Jesus Christ, and tries to live their lives according the the teachings of Jesus Christ. The way I read it, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are Christians. Web Woman 18:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I've just seen the whole issue about apostles being "spiritual witnesses" and "witnesses of the Living Christ" and have to agree with Trodel. It does seem a bit POV and "Mormon" to include an additional description of the office. If a casual reader wishes to know more about the office, he/she will click on the link. I would definitely support a removal of that phrase from the article. Pahoran513 23:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it is still the appropriate term though. Witnesses of Christ is better, but POV. I'll try to think of another term. Pahoran513 03:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This poster User talk:216.49.181.128 is (apparantly) posting from an official LDS location; if someone from the INTELLECTUAL RESERVE INC. is indeed editing then we must surmise that this is definite LDS POV. Where do we go from here? POV is not allowed under Wikipedia policy, no matter who is presenting it. I have a screenshot of the whois report if anyone wants me to post it here. Duke53 | Talk 02:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, maybe it is a POV vandal from the LDS church (I just looked at the edit history and agree with you), but we can't know if it is from a directive from the Church. It may just be a random employee doing the editing, the same as if he removed the content at home. However I'm not sure that this is the appropriate forum to discuss this. And how do you know it is from an LDS IP address? I'm honestly curious, not criticizing in the least. Let's not make an issue out of this--let's treat the IP the same as a regular user who makes the same edits. Pahoran513 03:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
one thing i'm a little confused about. isn't the new Jerusalem supplsed to be located within jackson county? the article seems to imply that they are in 2 seperate locations. Javawizard 23:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that women were given the priesthood. I'm more inclined to believe they thought they could exercise some priesthood power. I'm away on a business trip and won't be home until this weekend, but I recall reading in a book containing various writings of Mormon women, including one passage where an early prominent women (Eliza Snow maybe?) felt she was able to exercise the priesthood through the temple ordinances. I will look when I get home to come up with the reference, unless somebody beats me to it. I also recall hearing that women frequently were set apart to perform blessings, but I'm not sure I ever found a source to confirm that. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Women are given the Priesthood to do temple work only. It is not the same Priesthood given to the men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.32.68.211 ( talk • contribs)
To Bill and anon - Married women hold the priesthood jointly with their husbands; ie endowed women hold priesthood (or are annointed and in some cases ordained as priestesses), but they are not ordained, nor hold keys nor have authorization to act in directing church affairs as part of the priesthood. However, up until the middle of last century, women were allowed to stand in on baby blessings, pray over the sick, place anointed oil on the sick (but not perform the anointing ordinance) and more. I think President Hinckley's quote is good and accurate - those who understand the workings of the priesthood and church doctrine don't have an issue with it (and statistics I've seen support this, per discussions elsewhere. Roles are different, and they do hold eternal priesthood, yet they are not active as priesthood leaders in this life. The doctrines are clear, and no man can be exalted without his spouse's priesthood. The priesthood was not perfectly orgazined until the women portions were via the relief societty, according ot SMith. Women have to have a role in priesthood, however, most outside the church and many within the church don't take time to read the basic teachings on this in such works as Priesthood and church Government and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and as such misunderstand it. However, the quote is supported by stats on the matter. - Visorstuff 21:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
At the end of the "Worship Services" section is this:
Women usually attend wearing a bikini or other revealing swimsuit, while men wear slacks with or without a shirt. Children are also expected to come to church meetings wearing casual clothing.
It seems "out of place" (?) and probably incorrect. Someone with editing experience might want to correct it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.147.129.196 ( talk • contribs) 13:14, December 14, 2006 (UTC)
Don't forget one of the main rules of wikipedia. Fix whatever seems totally incorrect and be bold. Telepheedian 17:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I realize it is by-and-large a hopeless cause for this article to be anything other than what the mob-rule of LDS folk wants it to be, but don't you think it is a little ridiculous to have nothing but Wikilinks in the controversies section? CyberAnth 18:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I do disagree with a bulleted list - as this article is in much better status and I believe that bulleted lists in most cases decreases an article's readability. And it would simply duplicate an already long Controversies regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. Context is always better than lists. And I do agree that rebuttals from Mormon apologists are not wise, but the wording should reflect the differences between disagreements and misunderstandings. - Visorstuff 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I was looking back at some old edits and thought you'd all be interested to read an early, early version of this article. Very interesting how far we've come. - Visorstuff 00:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I just made a bunch of changes in an effort to get this article to a more managable size - and removed only 4kb from 75kb to 71kb. I think further efforts need to be made in this area even if it means more summarization and the creation of additional articles. -- Trödel 23:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the word "metaphysics" ought to be replaced with something else, actually it should probably just be removed altogether, it doesn't really fit very well. Isaac Crumm 04:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user (170.74.0.1) changed "Joseph Smith led the church until he was killed in 1844" to "Joseph Smith led the church until he was martyred in 1844". He also 'signed' the begining of the article.
Wrp103 reverted the change, with the comment "rv - bad POV edit". I agree that signing the article was a mistake, but I had also been considering changing "killed" to "martyred", I think it is appropriate.
The word "martyred" is not POV by any definition I can find. http://www.answers.com/topic/martyr says "One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle." Wikipedia says: "In the Christian context, a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death (suicide being seen as sinful), is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions." Joseph Smith made the ultimate sacrifice to seal his testimony.
So I changed it back to martyred and added a reference to D&C 135. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74s181 ( talk • contribs) 02:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
The reference to D&C 135 uses the term "martyrdom" but I didn't add it to prove that Joseph Smith was a martyr. The intent is to provide an eyewitness account of the event, the majority of statements in the reference are facts about the event which I don't believe are disputed by anyone (who, what, where, when, how, why). Sprinkled among these undisputed facts are some pretty strong opinions about Joseph Smith, but D&C 135 is not Wikipedia, it is a reference being cited in Wikipedia. As with any reference, the reader will have to decide for himself what he thinks about it. 74s181 11:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Folks there are multiple issues here. Words and phrases used to describe his death could include: Killed, Murdered, Martyred, Died in a gunfight, Assassinated, Died in a revenge killing, Manslaughtered, Lynched by a mob, Causualty of a riot, Died in armed conflict with a militia and more. Wikipedia assigns POV to many of these terms.
"Killed" is what is the most neutral - the fact is that he was killed. "Murdered" is appropriate, as there was a murder trial. Assasinated is appropriate, as he was a presidential candidate. "Martyr" could be debated as he fought back, and we don't know all of the reasons for the killing. Was it political due to his presidency bid? (he is listed in some books as the first presidential candidate in the US that was "assasinated") was it over slavery? Polygamy? Religion? Revenge? Mobocracy due to power struggles, militial tribunals, destruction of press, mayoral policies, church organization, secrecy, changes to masonic ritual, and the legality of killing mormons in missouri and more have all been cited as reasons why people hated him and would want to kill him. So to say he was only martyred is a mistake, as he was also assasinated, murdered, tortured and nearly beheaded. Let's let Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. sort out those issues, and keep it simple in this article. It should read kill here and perhaps a link to the sub-article explaining these arguments. Lets just keep it simple, as his death can become quite complex depending on the readers point of view. - Visorstuff 19:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have changed it back to 'martyred'. I made a similar change to the Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. page and added a section for opposing viewpoints. 'Classification of Joseph Smith, Jr. as a martyr'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74s181 ( talk • contribs) 15:27, 14 January 2007
I'm not sure why, but Bytebear changed GutenMorning's "death" edit back to "martyrdom", then changed it again to "death" two hours later. There are two sentences right next to each other that could use a form of 'martyr':
Saying "...both of them were martyred by a mob..." doesn't sound right to me, unfortunately my last class in english composition was 30+ years in the past and I wasn't paying much attention.
Using a form of 'martyr' in the second sentence as in "..aftermath of the martyrdom..." sounds better than "...martyred by a mob..." in the first sentence but still seems a bit clumsy.
I think one of these needs to use the more descriptive "martyr" terminology, it is more accurate and I think we agreed it was NPOV. 74s181 13:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I happened to be 'driving by' and changed it back to "martyrdom", because I didn't see any disagreeing discussion here since my last posting in February. 74s181 02:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
a recent edit added several paragraphs on the origins of Native Americans. It does seem like a worthy belief to mention, but his edits are extremely POV and somewhat inaccurate. Can someone come up with something more neutral (and shorter) as it really belongs either in Controversies article, or in the Book of Mormon article. Bytebear 07:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately the size of the article is going in the opposite direction it needs to. The article has grown 6% since January 4th when I last attempted to consolidate items and move details to sub articles. Additionally, the introduction is full of CJC lingo and no longer reads neutrally (imho). Finally, Joseph Smith has replaced Smith contrary to the style guide. -- Trödel 03:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for pointing to the wrong page, it is at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Subsequent uses of names. I agree with both these suggestions. One can introduce complex topics concisely and still be neutral. The key is that one should accurately describe the church and its teachings without commenting on whether they are right or wrong. This edit attempts to do just that in explaining the Plan of Salvation. Here is another example on the politically charged family/same-sex marriage issue. Sorry to use my own edits but I know them best :) -- Trödel 02:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that references to a highly documented event in the history of the early mormon church in Utah is continually removed from the article? If there is to be a section about the History of the church, and this article is to be unbiased rather than the evangelical tool of the Mormon church, as it appears to be, then the entire history MUST be presented, NOT just the good, but the bad as well. This bears fully on the history of the church, and should not be removed. Mountain Meadows Massacre. I am not suggesting the entire story be rehashed but a brief sentence ought to be in the article with a link to the well verified and supported wiki entry on the subject.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.55.80.32 ( talk • contribs)
See discussion immediately above this one. There is no room in this article for detail on any topic, positive or negative, history included. Most sections give a very high level overview and refer to another article. That is why there is a separate
History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article, which does mention the Mountain Meadows massacre. The goal right now is to move material from this article to other articles, not to add more info to this article. Only the most significant, high-level events or info should be in this article.
Although the
Mountain Meadows massacre (which, as you can see, has its own article) was a horrible attrocity, it was an act of individuals, not an official act of the Church, at least there doesn't appear to be any evidence that it was ordered or condoned by Brigham Young or any other senior church official. Compare this to the
Mormon War which was an official act against the church by various government officials, up to and including Missouri Governor
Lilburn Boggs. Many of the Mormon War attrocities and their connection to government officials are well documented in various eye witness accounts in documents that still exist today, along with the original
Extermination Order signed by the governor himself. This long string of events only gets half of a sentence in this article.
74s181
05:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I should point out that according to Will Bagley, who wrote the book "Blood of Prohets: The Mountain Meadow Massacre", he presents evidence that Brigham Young did in fact give the "kill orders" for the Fauncher Party massacre. He also provides clear evidence that Mormons participated in the massacre, for which only John D. Lee was held resposible and executed. He draws from a recovered Mormon diary, that Fawn Brodie (the current expert on the massacre, and LDS member) did not have or know about when she wrote her book. 69.10.215.75 20:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
A new user, GutenMorning made a number of edits, most of which were reverted. None of the edits had an edit summary. One of the edits was a section from Church History about the death of Joseph Smith. The edit summary of the revert called it "obviously vandalism", but I disagree.
I agree that the addition probably should not have been added as part of the article, but could have very easily gone into a footnote. I realize that this page gets vandalized on a regular basis, and I'm as guilty as the next one at summarily reverting edits. But (IMHO) we should also remember to take it easy on the new editors. We were all newbies at some point. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
A recent edit by 84.146.236.121 was reverted on the grounds of POV push:
O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness..." ( Jacob 3:8-9).
Although there is some POV, it balances out an equally (IMHO) POV edit that talks about the Nephite/Lamanite skin color in the Book of Mormon, which is off-topic, since the section is really about African-Americans not getting the priesthood for a while.
It seems to me that we should either add this back in w/o the POV comments, or remove the off-topic paragraphs about skin color in the Book of Mormon.
Thoughts? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 18:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above. Note that the Blacks and Mormonism article gives all of the same details. The intrinsic symbolism of "white" as a symbol of purity and being washed "white through the blood of the Lamb" can't be adequately explained in a brief summary article such as this, so why mislead and confuse the reader? Reiddp 07:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
is there any criticism of Mormon beliefs and practices? why was it not included on the page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.56.216.83 ( talk) 13:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
Thank you. Can anyone shed more light on the allegations that they teach that some people will live on their own planets or something along those lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.216.83 ( talk • contribs)
I'm sorry, but I find this article way below Wiki standards. The POV is severely in question. How can there be no mention at all of scientific objections in regards to archeology and genetics, except to a link to a separate article? I would expect an article on the books of Daniel or Jonah to include questions as to their authenticity, and articles on the books on the Gospels bring up historical criticism and questions of authorship. Why is the Mormon religion so special that it doesn't include scientific objections? Why suddenly is basic science relegated to a sub-article?- Abdul Muhib —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abdul Muhib ( talk • contribs) 06:05, 1 May 2007.
I haven't been around in a while. I don't really like the direction the opening paragraphs have gone. It seems we have moved backwards compared to the clarity and professionalism of the introduction around a year ago. Here is how it read April 17, 2006:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, widely known as the "LDS Church" or the "Mormon Church", is the largest and most well-known denomination within the Latter Day Saint movement (a form of Restorationism). The church is headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. Latter-day Saints regard Jesus Christ as the head of their church and count themselves as Christians, but do not consider themselves part of the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant traditions. Rather, they believe the church to be the restoration of the original church established by Jesus Christ on Earth.
Compare that to the current:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a church with American origins that claims to be the restoration of the original Christian church founded by Jesus during his earthly ministry.
Sometimes referred to as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, the church teaches that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1820 and called him to be a prophet and to restore His Church on the earth, including essential elements that were lost from Christianity between Paul's death and the First Council of Nicaea. These elements included scriptures previously unknown to western civilization, the calling of Twelve Apostles as special witnesses of Christ's divinity, and the restoration of priesthood authority. The Church was organized by Joseph Smith and five others in Fayette, New York on April 6, 1830, shortly after the first publication of the Book of Mormon.
An international organization with a majority of worldwide members living outside of the United States, the LDS Church has its world headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah, where 96-year-old Gordon B. Hinckley serves as its 15th President and is considered to be the world's modern prophet and earthly voice for Jesus Christ. The church sends tens of thousands of male and female missionaries throughout the world, and in 2005 reported a worldwide membership of over 12.5 million.
I don't know, maybe everyone likes it better the new way? But I doubt it. Some of the changes were largely due to a crusade to stamp out any "consider themselves Christian" language on the part of one or two sensitive LDS. Since the discussion ultimately ruled out the word "Christian" it was determined to give a summary of the beliefs instead. Hopefully that discussion has cooled off and they can now see the error of their ways and we can put that back in. And then there's a year's worth of the natural drift that occurs with multiple authors constantly editing.
Anyway, is there anyone besides me that thinks the 2006 version is better? Novel-Technology 07:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
From my comments on the much vs most "Christian" talking points, I will add this here.
"If you are truly looking for a NPOV of what it means to be Christian, then please use the dictionary's definition of a Christian, rather than what other religions consider to be Christian. From dictionary.com we find the definition as being:
Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith. 2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country. 3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades. 4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity. 5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial. 6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian. –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity. 8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian. 9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren. 10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. 11. a male given name.
Obviously definitions 10 and 11 can be excluded when considering whether a religion is considered "Christian" or not. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, have a religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, try to live Christlike lives, are generally decent and respectable, humane people, who believe in Jesus Christ, and tries to live their lives according the the teachings of Jesus Christ. The way I read it, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are Christians.Web Woman 18:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)"
Instead of qualifying that they "consider themsleves Christian", would it not be more appropriate to call them a Christian religion as per the definition? Web Woman 15:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
No, it wouldn't. Novel-Technology 15:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem with using this definition to prove that Mormons are Christian is that the Christ of the Mormons is a completely different person, both in nature and in his teachings, from the Christ of other religions. Mormons believe that Christs' teachings were lost or corrupted until the revelations of Joseph Smith; while the other religions that call themselves Christian follow these supposedly corrupted teachings. Mormons do not believe that Jesus Christ was True God and True Man, while this is a fundamental teaching of the other religions that call themselves Christian. The Catholic and Protestant sects of Christianity disagree vehemently over fundamental aspects of theology, but have in common a definite core belief set (of which C.S. Lewis' _Mere Christianity_ is one attempt to codify) and a set of documents (most books of the bible) which they agree to be uncorrupt and reliable. Mormons do not hold to this core belief set and hold the Bible to be corrupt. This is why most Catholics and Protestants can be relied upon to stop arguing with each other just long enough to assert in unison that the Mormons are not of their religion. This has nothing to do with whether or not Mormons are humane or virtuous not.
It should be noted that the Muslims also claim to follow Christ, but, like Mormons, hold their own view of his nature, purpose, and teachings. Should Muslims be called Christian because they claim to follow Christ as a prophet? R.E.S.A. 19:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I think if any mention is going to be made of Kolob, it should at least be accurate. (For what it's worth, I don't think it's appropriate to have a mention of Kolob on the page about the Church itself. Maybe on a page about Latter Day Saint theology, but not on one about the legal structure called TCOJCOLDS.)
Anyway, the Church does not teach that God the Father and Jesus Christ "live on a planet named Kolob". This is a favourite misquote of anti-Mormon types, who fail to actually report what the Book of Abraham actually says about Kolob. Please--no more statements that God lives on a planet named Kolob, 'cos we all know that no one actually teaches or believes that! SESmith 02:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with the phrase "The Church teaches ..." about Heavenly Mother. Yes, her existence is implied in Gospel Principles because it talks about our heavenly parents. President Kimball mentions her during the cited talk, and she is again implied in the hymn "O My Father". IMHO those citations show that it is widely believed, but not that the church teaches. I don't recall any church lesson that teaches her existence.
Maybe I'm picking nits, but it seems to me that the article currently implies that Mormons are actively teaching others about that doctrine, when in fact, it is much more subtle. IMHO, an official doctrine of the church is a concept that all are expected to believe. If somebody has problems accepting the existence of Heavenly Mother, it will have absolutely no effect on their membership, ability to serve in leadership positions, etc.
Is it just me, or am I making sense? Thoughts? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The article now includes the text:
This is not entirely true as I understand it. If a child dies at 9, are endowments performed? Since the temple rituals are not given until someone is an adult, it would be odd that a child (over the age of 8, but not yet an adult) would be endowed, and certainly not sealed to a spouse. There needs to be more distinction on age specific ordinances. Bytebear 18:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Under "God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost", the last part of the first paragraph, it reads "...and does not officially use the symbol of the Christian cross." This kind of implies that rather than discouraging the use of the symbol, the church simply doesn't use it. I think it would be more appropriate if it read somthing like "...and discourages the use of the symbol of the Christian cross." Sorry to make a big deal out of it, but to me, a cross is like having a picture of the car your brother died in. Shouldn't you find a nice picture of your brother instead?
It isn't a huge change, but I'm not that great at expressing myself with words, so someone else could probably do it more correctly than me. Besides that, rather than simply making the change, I wanted to have a visible reason. I also apologise if I'm doing somthing horribly wrong here...I don't edit Wikipedia very often.( 207.183.175.31 16:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC))
This phrasing seems like it could be cleaned up, or at least made less ambiguous. It seems to be hinting that the church doesn't really have Jesus Christ as its central focus. Everything I've heard from the church officially (i.e., in General conference (Latter Day Saints) addresses) seems to indicate that the focus is a matter of fact, rather than idea. I was unwilling to edit this myself because of my relative inexperience with Wikipedia, but this seems like a fairly important (if small) issue. If anyone could provide proper phrasing and citation to indicate Christ's centrality as fact (or, as the case may somehow be, fiction), I'd appreciate it. - Infiniteseries 04:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I know the opening paragraphs have been finely tuned, but there is a gaping whole regarding what the church's stated mission is. It doesn't seem odd, out of place, or pov to include it, so I have placed it at the end of the opening paragraph. What do you think?-- TrustTruth 17:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a chart showing the various schisms of the Latter Day Saint movement. It is a nice chart, but I don't think it belongs in this article. Bytebear 04:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
JRN 01:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The introduction's last line says:
I don't think humanitarian cooperation with other churches is "recent". Can I assume it is a dirivative of the idea that the church is "trying to pass itself off as Christian?" I think it's fine to say that the LDS Church has done many humanitarian endeavours with both Christians and non-Christians alike, and show some references. I know the whole "Christian" think is touchy, and I think the intro does a very good job of stepping around land mines, but this line of text seems awkward, like the only way Christian faiths accept Mormons is if they are giving money to a cause, which they would just as easily accept Jews or Hindus, etc. Bytebear 22:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"You cannot make that claim. Other churches feel they are the 1830 church. avoid POV" [4]
It was a goofy edit and one I would have reverted too, but what is going on with this reason? -- Masamage ♫ 03:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
First I'll start that I meet this wonderful man and the "GOD" subject came up and I was raised in a pentalcastle church and he is lds. I would like to know put in simple terms, what is the differance between these two beliefs? Please make it short and simple because I am sooooo confused. Thank you 68.118.208.212 07:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC) and what are these(~) for and why four of them? 68.118.208.212 07:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I noted your inquiry on the differences between the theology and practice of
Latter-day Saints and
Pentecostals. Wikipedia has many articles on religious traditions, and the LDS community has been particularly active here. Many of these articles, including
Mormonism and Christianity, may be of use to you. However, I believe a brief summary might give you some topics to discuss with your new friend.
Under the assumption that both of you are well versed and take an active role in your own religions, here are some things you might have in common.
There are a number of religious issues which you, and others less familiar with the LDS faith, may find quite different from your own perspective. These are doctrinally based.
Given these differences, you might find your friend's activities, customs and attitudes different in many ways. For example:
I hope you enjoy getting to know each other. Best wishes. WBardwin 08:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
It is important to represent the movement and make sure if someone was seeking other organizations they can be found quickly. None of these organizations are obscure and it will help show other parts of the movement in a NPOV manner. Jcg5029 23:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
God the Father is understood to be the father in premortal life of the spirits of all who inhabit this earth.[8] He is considered both the spirit father and natural father of Jesus with Mary, thus inheriting from the Father power over death.[9] Belief in such a figure is common among members, and she has also been mentioned in talks by church officials, as well as in the hymns of the church.
These sentences make no sense. I think that something has been inadvertently removed in the second sentence (possibly about Mary and/or the relationship of Jesus to God the Father), but I don't know enough about Mormon doctrine to reconstruct. Vgranucci 18:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Totally not appropriate. That needs to be merged to the temples article if it's merged anywhere. -- Masamage ♫ 23:40, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm questioning the abundant use of doctrine and covenants as references throughout this page. WP:A says that scriptures cannot be used as references. I understand the need for use in clarification "as in D&C ### states this" but I don't think D&C can be used to make claims as the D&C are considered scriptures. Am I correct in this assumption? JRN 21:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this evening that an editor changed all the capitalized "C" in Church to small "c" church. This previous use was a proper use of the English language. I suspect that the motivation was some form of political correctness; however, it is misguided. When referrin to the Church in this article one is referring to the LDS church; it is not referring to The church. Having a capital "c" does not infer any degree of truth, or superiority to any other church, but rather refers to the topic. I may have made hasty assumptions and would like to be corrected if I am wrong; Sesmith can you please explain your edits? -- Storm Rider (talk) 06:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I reviewed the article on Manual of Style; not surprisingly the "new" recommendations were those of a single editor with no discussion. I have reverted that editor's edits and referred it to the discussion page. It will be best to discuss the issue and ensure that rules of style are used across the board and not just for a single group. You will note that another editor has made a complaint prior to my review. -- Storm Rider (talk) 04:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
[At this point, the discussion on this issue was picked up at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints).]
I commented out the Mormon denomination tree graphic at the bottom of the page. This graphic shows a chart of various splits from the movement started by Joseph Smith, Jr. and is more appropriately displayed in the Latter Day Saint movement article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.167.171.20 ( talk) 15:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC).
Anyone know what's going on with the Ensign pic? It's acting like there's a nowiki tag around it. -- Masamage ♫ 22:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
An anon IP editor just dropped the "Articles of Faith" into the Mormonism article with a rather obnoxious demand that his edit not be deleted. The obnoxiousness of the edit summary aside, I think he makes a good point... Mormonism should describe the principles held in common among all those who are called "Mormons".
In truth, I didn't know until a month or so ago that there was more to Mormonism than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a few splinter polygamy-practicing sects. I didn't know that there were "Utah Mormons" and "Missouri Mormons". I still don't fully know what the difference is between the two.
Seems to me that the Mormonism article would be a great place to discuss the Mormonism movement which includes but is not limited to the LDS church. This article should not be allowed to monopolize the discussion of Mormonism as the real Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints tends to do in the real world.
So... I would propose that we move the entire "Beliefs and practices" section into the Mormonism article and reduce the section in this article to a discussion of how the beliefs and practices of the LDS church differs from that of the common beliefs and practices shared among all Mormons.
I will eventually propose that Mormonism be the primary article and that articles on the LDS church and other Mormon churches be subsidiary articles of that article. This would require a complete rewrite of the Mormonism article which, at the moment, is a huge mess.
Now, since I've admitted to being pretty much ignorant of Mormonism, I am willing to believe that I may be totally off-the-mark in my proposal. If you think so, please feel free to explain why this is so.
-- Richard 17:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I also note that there is a Latter Day Saint movement article which seems to be devoted to timelines of divisions among LDS sects. Can someone explain what the difference is between the Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism? Which one is the best candidate for being the primary article?
-- Richard 17:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I checked an older revision of this article. It used to say "Largely due to the convincing power of this book, which Smith said he translated by a heavenly power, the church rapidly gained a large following who viewed Smith as a prophet."
In this diff, 199.106.103.254 changed it to read "Largely due to the convincing power which comes from the Lord's spirit which accompanies this book, which Smith translated by a heavenly power, the church rapidly gained a large following with Smith as a prophet like Moses, Abraham, and Isaac in Christ's church anciently."
I have reverted 199.106.103.254's edits twice. My version reads "the church rapidly gained a large following who viewed Smith as a prophet", deleting "largely due to the convincing power of this book" entirely.
I don't think we can know how convincing the Book of Mormon is/was. Oftentimes, it is the personal charisma and teaching of individuals that is convincing. People often come to Christ through the personal testimony and witness of individuals not because a book is "convincing". If this were not true, we could simply put a Bible and/or a Book of Mormon in the hands of every individual on this globe and thereby conver the world in one fell swoop. Or we could force schoolchildren to read the entire Bible and ensure their salvation forever.
I know that various LDS editors will want to raise up the Book of Mormon for glorification but this is an encyclopedia. Let's keep the text encyclopedic.
-- Richard 16:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot more about homosexuality than wanting to fornicate with those of your own gender. Many homosexuals in the church live their lives in complete accord with the church’s teachings. Focusing on sex misrepresents the LGBT population in the church. Also, there is no indication that the church leaders deny a homosexual orientation. They do say it is not inborn and that it could possibly be changed, but they don’t say it was chosen or that it needs to be changed. They expect the same behavior of homosexuals as heterosexuals. Almost every single condemnation of homosexual activity is accompanied with a condemnation of extramarital activities. To say the church has condemned homosexual behavior in particular is wrong. Joshuajohanson 16:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The church's Articles of Faith have been copied wholesale into the article several times, and I have deleted them citing Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources. There's no need to copy the Articles of Faith anyway, since all the topics therein are discussed elsewhere in the article, and the Scripture section mentions them and citation to the Articles of Faith (Latter Day Saints) Wikipedia article, where a person can learn more. Moreover, the AofF has never been considered a definitive or complete statement of LDS beliefs: it's sole purpose, from the moment Smith included it in the Wentworth letter, has been to serve as a proselytizing tool, which makes it inappropriate to cite verbatim as if it were the church's creed, even if there were no Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources policy. COGDEN 18:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I seem to have gotten confused and re-instated a vandalistic edit rather than removing it as I intended. I must have gotten confused somewhere as to what 156.45.254.11's edit was doing. Somehow, I thought he was adding vandalism rather than reverting it and so I reverted him which put the vandalism back. My bad. -- Richard 19:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Do we have to list every single type of sexual activity the church teaches against with a link on how to do it? The section itself is an example of erotic readings the church opposes. There is a reason the church isn't so graphic in its teachings, and our representation of the law of chastity should reflect the church's reverance for the subject. Otherwise, it leaves the wrong impression that the church approves of (or worse uses) such graphic speech. Also, instead of a bunch of thou shalt nots, can we have a bit more thou shalts, like let virtue garnish thy thoughts and stuff like that. Saying the church prohibits certain thoughts seems extreme. Also, there is very little information on what is allowed to happen in the bedroom of a married couple, and I don't think ambiguity on the church's position on that deserves to be on the front page. Joshuajohanson 23:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I think For the Strength of Youth could be quoted on this topic. See Sexual Purity
True to the Faith is also the closest thing there is to a summarized "official doctrine" (outside of Gen Conf and the Scriptures) of the church on many topics. BTW, see Lavina Fielding Anderson's interesting take on this issue in the Winter 2006 issue of Dialogue. Some quotes from Chastity
However see also:
Which implies that thoughts, although they are a "sin," aren't necessarily breaking the law of chastity in the strictest sense, but the pathway to temptation and breaking the law. How about something like:
I would take out what is allowed in marriage as there is no official doctrine on the subject. I think this is more closely aligned with that I would call "doctrine." And it clearly outlines that the "law of chastity" tends to include a more expansive view of sexual sin, standards of conduct, and advice on prevention. -- Trödel 19:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Noting significant history of racism and racist doctrines throughout the majority of its history as is clearly apparent from content exposed at Blacks_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement. NI4D 04:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Storm rider reverted my revert of the image caption about the first (and thus far only) black general authority with an edit summary that asked "How many Asians and Latinos?". The question should be "What's the point that we are trying to make?"
We should look beyond the caption to the article text which reads "Prior to 1978, black men were barred from being ordained to the priesthood and entering the religion's temples; in 1978, church president Spencer W. Kimball announced a revelation reversing this policy. (See Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.)"
Presumably, the point of the image and the caption is to underline the point that black men are now eligible for ordination to the priesthood even to point of achieving the rank of general authority.
However, in
Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we learn that "In 1997, there were approximately 500,000 black members of the church (about 5% of the total membership), mostly in Africa, Brazil and the Caribbean." It is reasonable to point out that 5% of all LDS members are black but something less than 5% are general authorities. How many general authorities are there? Presumably there are more than 20. (Somebody educate me, please.)
Whether this is due to lingering racism or due to the fact that it takes more than 30 years to develop a class of black LDS priests to the caliber of being general authorities is in the realm of OR. We should leave that judgment up to the reader. We should neither indict the LDS church for racism nor should we exonerate it with a whitewash. Doing either violates NPOV.
-- Richard 17:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict, inserting my response to Storm Rider above Joshuajohanson's comment)
Putting all this discussion of racism aside, which I think is way beyond the scope of this summary article, the way the caption now reads says that Martins was "the first general authority of African descent". This is a problem, because it somewhat misleadingly implies that there have been others. I'm changing the language "The church had a black general authority, Helvécio Martins, from 1990 to 1995." That seems neutral enough. COGDEN 17:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The lead sentence of the General authority article states "a general authority is a member of a select body of approximately 100 men with administrative and ecclesiastical authority over the church". However, if you look at Section 2 "Composition and distinction from General Officers", the table suggests that there are many more general authorities (just add up the number of people in all the rows). Except User:Joshuajohanson informs us that only the first two Quorums of Seventy are general authorities. But, if each Quorum of Seventy has 70 members, then we have 140+ general authorities which contradicts the lead sentence (unless you consider 140+ to be approximately 100). In that case, would you buy this $100 bill from me for approximately 100 dollars?
Something is broken here and I don't know enough to determine how to fix it. Would somebody who does know please fix it?
-- Richard 20:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this paragraph ends with, "but it has cooperated with other churches in promoting humanitarian and moral causes.". I think it would be better to say, "while allowing others to worship how, where or what they may." This is a paraphrasing of the 11th article of faith and I think makes clearer what the church is about. The original sounds as if the LDS church only admits there are other faiths when they are all trying to help someone. Mynty 01:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)mynty 5 May 2007
I just transferred the following statement from the article page:
Overlooking the misspelling, does anyone have a reference that all Mission Presidents are paid? Also, Missionaries are not paid to serve missions, but are requested to save a sufficent amount prior to their missions. In addition, as stated, families and wards pay for monthly upkeep. This is different from the church paying for it. Thoughts? -- Storm Rider (talk) 23:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This whole area seems a bit rife with OR. I personally know several past mission presidents and not one of them were paid to serve. What I find repugnant about the current language is that providing the use of a car is called "being paid" to serve. This is what we call "spin" and is not factual. Being paid, being on the payroll, is I will hire you to do a certain function and I will pay you a salary plus benefits. Also, attempting to classify the young men and women of the church as being "paid" is simply a falsehood. I can assure you that the Church did not pay for my mission, my son's mission, and any other person I know who served a mission. The vast majority of missionaries save, if not their entire mission cost, then a large portion of it. I am aware of some missionaries who saved lesser amounts and the majority of the funds were received from the donations of others in their home ward, but his is not the same thing as being "paid" by the church.
In addition, do we have any hard facts for this? Stating it is found in church literature is just too vague particularly when it conflicts so badly with my personal knowledge and daily life experiences. -- Storm Rider (talk) 06:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I changed back the description of the pre-1978 policy on blacks and the priesthood to refer to "blacks", rather than "men of African descent". Actually, it was blackness that was the factor. Someone, for example, with Egyptian, Moroccan, or South African heritage (someone they might have called a "white African") could have the priesthood so long as they had no known black-skinned ancestors. Of course, this was all part of the problem the church faced in the 70s, since we know now, based on genetic evidence, that everyone has at least some African ancestry if you go back far enough, especially people whose ancestors have historically lived near black people. COGDEN 22:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
In the Hugh B. Brown biography published by his son (not the one published by Deseret Book), Brown discusses this issue. During the 60's the First Presidency and the Twelve discussed allowing blacks to be ordained to the priesthood; however, because two of the Brethren did not support the action, the church remained frozen. After their passing all worthy males were allowed to hold the priesthood. As Visor demonstrates, this is not a clearly simple issue of racisim. Personally, I believe there were individual who may have been motivated by racial prejudice parading as doctrine. I also believe there were individuals who were convinced by doctrine that priesthood was only to be given to specific tribes; that was the doctrine of God for literally centuries within the covenant people. -- Storm Rider (talk) 23:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
From some of the account's I've read, Kimball was at the alter praying when he started dictating a revelation, which the brethren scrambled to write. They weren't expecting it to come at the time. Some claimed that angelic beings were present, including at least three past presidents of the church, including wilford woodruff (recognized by Legrand Richards) and possibly Jesus. The official declaration is that a revelation was receieved, it just doesn't provide the content of said revelation. OD 1 is a little different, as we do have the vision account by Woodruff, where he was shown what would happen if polygamy was not abandoned. But this is not a simple vision account, but rather a stated revelation through Kimball. See for example this quote from Adventures of a Church Historian by Leonard Arrington Pages 176-177:
You guys should check out "Mormonism's Negro Policy: Social and Historical Origins." It talks about the exact circumstances under which the policy was originally created, going into a lot of detail from church documents, anti-church documents, letters, and journal entries from the time. It turns out to have done because a lot of Mormons were using their religion as a tool for abolitionism, and that kept getting them tar-and-feathered and made people think that the Mormons were going to forcibly bring up the slaves to fight against their masters. So basically the church went wheeling backwards from racial politics and told everyone not to baptise blacks at the present time. Then Joseph Smith died, without any official work having been done to figure out this policy. The book describes in detail the process of people coming up with stuff like the Curse to make sense of what, without doctrine behind it, looked like outright racism. It's a fascinating book, and was in fact published in the mid-1970s, when everyone was unhappy about the policy but before it was repealed. You should give it a look. I think it has some info we could really use. -- Masamage ♫ 01:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought this was resolved some months ago, but...
For those who keep inserting the claim that Joseph Smith taught that God's physical body was near the planet/star/celestial body named Kolob, please provide a reference. What the canonized Book of Abraham actually says about Kolob is this:
"And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. • • • And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same border as that upon which thou standest. • • • If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me. • • • But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning."
I can see where you could interpret these statements as suggesting what you are stating, but it is by no means clear or settled that these statements are to be taken in their literal, physical sense. The article on Kolob has a good summary of the various viewpoints on this scripture.
In an introductory article such as this one, I hardly think it's appropriate to introduce something and present it as the undisputed teaching of the church when in fact it is a relatively obscure doctrinal topic, and one where the very meaning is in dispute. - SESmith 23:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
"... Kolob represents Jesus Christ rather than a physical object and location in this universe. The symbolic interpretation was explained by Hugh Nibley in The Temple and The Cosmos (see Kolob, time and temples). Advocates of [this] symbolic interpretation believe it harmonizes better with other Mormon beliefs, and with beliefs in the greater Christian community, as it does not require that God have a physical throne within this universe."
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