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Please be reminded that this webpage was created with one purpose in mind. To discuss the content on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wiki. Comments or arguments that do not contribute to the construction and improvement of this article are not neccesary, and only hinder this wiki's progress. These include arguments on items not discussed in this wiki, such as reasons why the LDS religion is wrong as compared to others, hate messages, unprovoked arguments on undiscussed topics, and messages advocating the LDS religion without an opposing argument. Please keep Wikipedia a constructive and hate-free community. Thanks, 70.65.169.165 21:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I propose merging Animals in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with this article. If it is as important a topic as the people supporting the page on the AfD think it is, then it has every reason to be a bigger part of this article and not just a See also link. Peyna 02:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a link to this article from the Exmormonism article, backed up in the discussion section of Exmormonism. It seems only logical that there should be a link back. greenw47
Hi there. There has to be a neutral way of expressing what is meant by the words "Restorationist Christianity" in the opening paragraph. The current pair of words is non-neutral since it implies that the Latter-day Saint movement is Christian, which is a widely contested understanding. My formulation "Restorationist view of Christianity" was reverted, so I think a better phrase needs to be found. Sincerely, 82.181.198.55 14:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I think your proposal is good. Go for it. Storm Rider (talk) 23:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This conversation is fascinating, even though some of it isn't directly related to the article. I'm not sure if most Christians make any essential difference between "Christianity" and "Historic Christianity" (as groups of people, not as concepts); when viewing Mormons as non-Christians, their reasons are surely based on the Mormon doctrines that differ from those expressed in the patristic and conciliar writings. I could imagine that you believe the same, but we seem to draw different conclusions from that. If I understood you correctly, you stated that they actually think Mormons are Christians but just different Christians. My understanding is that they really do think Mormons are non-Christians and base this view on the mentioned differences. Even if you or I were of the opinion that the differences are not such that would make Mormons non-Christians, it is a non sequitur to therefore conclude that the opinion is generally shared. Or more simply put, when they say "Mormons are not Christians, you know, they don't believe in the Trinity" I would be very hesitant to interpret it as "Ok, Mormons are Christians but they don't believe in the Trinity." More likely, the correct interpretation is "Mormons are not Christians precisely because they don't believe in the Trinity." But again, this is only my understanding of what is generally held.
When conversing in the context of WP, I find the whole concept of "the standard interpretation of the Bible" very difficult. The essence of the question is, what should the encyclopedia say if a group holds a self-understanding that has very little support from outside? At least not bluntly state the Mormon position as a fact. I could say that numbers do matter in the case of an overwhelming majority (this is in the WP instructions, if I remember correctly), but the case is special because the group disagreeing with the others is the one the whole matter is about. Therefore, the article shouldn't state the matter from a non-Mormon position as a fact either. It should only say who thinks what, and I think the opening paragraph is good now. It states the Mormon position, not as an uncontested fact, but as a position. The counterexample about the Roman Catholic Church is not applicable, in my view, because the percentage of people who view Roman Catholics as non-Christians is small.
My understanding of the Protestant (or generally Christian) view of Mormon faith is that they think that one doesn't believe in the same Jesus as they do, the Jesus of Nazareth, if one rejects the understanding of him as the man-God. I agree that it is not self-evident where they should draw the line, but on the other hand, it is understandable that the line is drawn somewhere. If they viewed the Mormon understanding of God as being within the boundaries of Christianity, the next question would be, what about Hindus who feel highly of Jesus and view him as one among millions of gods - are they Christians, too? I also think that most Christians do believe in the possible salvation of non-Christians - for instance, the Roman Catholic position is that they can be saved (by and through Christ) if they are outside the visible boundaries of Christianity without their own fault and if they follow the law written in every heart. This has quite little to do with the article, though.
I think the word "consider" doesn't entail any rejection of what is considered; it simply states it as a position. This is very apparent because the same clause can speak of considerations opposed to each other: "Harry considers the apple tree as his own; Barry, on the other hand, considers that he owns the apple tree." Neither position is either supported or rejected. They're just mentioned, neutrally and accurately. I would of course find it understandable if the article on Harry told Harry's understanding first and vice versa. -- 82.181.198.55 11:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
We are getting a little further afield on this question; let's bring it back to the question as it relates to the LDS church. LDS prefer a 1st century definition of Christian. If one accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God, that he lived, was crucified, made the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and rose the 3rd day and now sits on the right hand of the Father; then one is Christian. This would fit some of the definitions that Trödel has stated above and.
Some Historic Christian churches have added another layer in order to define Christian: not only must you believe in Jesus in the manner stated above, but you must also accept certain additional 4th century beliefs i.e. the Nicene Creed. Those who accept this doctrine are rightly called part of the Historic Christian churches. LDS and others do not share in this genesis and are appropriately identified as such.
Being Christian does not require being part of Historic Christianity, being Christian means one believes in Jesus as the Christ. The problems develops when Historic Christian churches attempt to claim ownership of the term Christian. They are quite capable of saying "you are not part of us" or "you are not part of mainstream Christianity". However, I am loathe to reject any individual's claim they are Christian.
Your example above seems rather extreme. Is one Christian if one simply follows the teachings of Jesus? Many of our Christian brothers and sisters seem to doubt the divinity of Jesus Christ. At times I am thrown to feel that the label of Christian is not merited if one thinks Jesus was simply a good teacher, a bodhisattva, a philospher, or a prophet, etc. I want to make the standard higher; that they must accept him as the Son of God. However, I think when I do that I create possible distinctions where none should be. I think Christian should be an inclusive term. If we are to make distinctions it would have to be in beliefs. Accepting Jesus as the Christ is not the end of a journey, but it is the beginning of one. When then must strive to emulate His example and teachings. It is at the end that we wish to hear, "Well done thou good and faithful servant". Storm Rider (talk) 04:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
"the Latter-day Saint movement is Christian, which is a widely contested understanding."
I'm amazed at how so many who rely so heavily on the words and writings of others claim we Mormons are not Christians. Call me crazy, but my definition of being "Christian" implies that one follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Christ is at the center of this Church. No one has a greater love and reverence for the Savior than do the members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints." It is His Church and in fact is named after Him. The Book of Mormon testifies of Him in numerous ways. It is in fact a second witness that HE lives. This is why we don't use the symbolism of the cross in our buildings. It is because we worship the LIVING Christ and not the one who died on the cross. The Book of Mormon explicitly teaches of Jesus Christ and of His mission here in the Western Hemisphere. It is in His sacred name that we do all that we do, including prayer and the performing of various ordinances. We open and close our meetings in his name. It is in His name that we bless our families and friends. It is in His name that many thousands of our members, young and old, at personal expense and without compensation, embark on missions to spread His message around the world. Their only reward is the joy of bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ into the lives of those we come to know. All that we do is in hope of someday being reunited with Him and once again living in His presence. Spyneyes 02:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that the this LDS article is a good example of the weakeness of Wikipedia as a whole. This article has turned pretty much into an official sanitized description of the LDS faith and not an neutral one. Even the "Criticism and Controversy" section has turned more into a defense of any criticism than an explantion of the crisiticism themselves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.88.121.162 ( talk • contribs) .
I was just looking at the major beliefs section, and it is my prominent belief (get it) that it would be better in a different order. I propose the following order:
I believe that this order is more conducive to the precedence that Church members place on their beliefs, as is evidenced by the order of the missionary lessons (Plan of Salvation second) and discussion during Sunday School, along with sacrament meeting talks. We rarely have a talk on the Godhead's composition during sacrament meeting, but talks on the Plan of Salvation, the Book of Mormon, and each of the 1st principles, are much more prevalent. Likewise, testimonies concerning the nature of the Godhead are rarely borne, but testimonies on the value of faith, the Book of Mormon, and Priesthood power are frequent. The order which I proposed, I feel, is clearly more adequate than the current one to express this. Any objections or agreements? This is a rather major change, so discussion would be nice. -- Pahoran513 17:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
There. I did it. -- Pahoran513 17:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I am proposing that the Animals in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be merged into a yet to be created, and named, article that would cover the following subjects:
The article could pull together some info from the following articles: Holy Spirit#Non-Trinitarian Christian views, Pre-existence#Pre-mortal existence in Mormonism, Godhead (Mormonism), Plan of salvation, First War in Heaven, Animals, etc. Light of Christ could also be merged and redirected to the new article.
This would be a more coherent presentation of the theology and its implications. It would also allow sections on the related topics in the Mormonism articles - or in the non Latter Day Saint movement related articles to be summarized more succinctly while pointing those interested to a full treatment of the information. Comments, thoughts? Help on a name would be especially helpful (see also: Talk:Animals in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#New merge target) -- Trödel 19:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
In the archives there was talk about shortening this article by creating a new article about the Culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I went ahead and created it. However, it is mostly just a copy and paste from this article with a brief introduction added. Please contribute to it. -- Pahoran513 04:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I am suggesting that the above article be merged with the main LDS article. It is little more than a paragraph critical of the church Tithing program and looks more like a blurb on corporate Mormonism than a legitimate article. Bytebear 18:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
That is fine by me, though I wonder where you will add it; we are trying to reduce the size of this article (or at least keep it from growing). But overall the concept is good (but the Financial article will have to be re-written for redundancy). Pahoran513 23:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the suggestion to merge this article with "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", I believe it should not be merged.
My reasoning: a) I feel the article is not written well, or at the very least is incomplete and unbalanced; b) I also feel some readers could regard it as somewhat inflammatory.
Perhaps if there were also articles titled "The Financial Properity of The Roman Catholic Church/Baptist Church/Methodist Church" etc., then this article could well be in order. (Ok, I didn't actually look to see if their were such articles, but I'm guessing there aren't any. Am I right?) -- BigMack 20:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the sentence: "They work full-time for the Church, and those who need it receive a stipend from the Church"
I'm not sure this statement is correct. It's my understanding that church leaders are reimbursed for expenses only, like travel expenses. -- BigMack 20:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I saw the following article in the Des News that discusses membership statistics [1] of scientology. Intereesting that the LDS church gets beat up for having incorrect statistics by Anti-Mormons (in fact, their membership numbers are probably the most accurate according to stark and others), however, when you look at the following statement it is consistent with the southern baptist's definition and american penecostal assn definiation. Seems that catholicism and mormons actually define based on baptism/confirmation stats (and a few others). Hmmm. here's the statement:
In otherwords, if we used that definition, anyone who is a repeat caller to get the latest "family first" video or has visited a family history library more than once, or attended a sacrament meeting, would be considered part of the LDS church. - Visorstuff 18:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 08:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints → The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – Per Wikipedia's guidelines, this needs to be moved. As with The Nature Conservancy, the "The" is part of the name, which they specifically request be used. [2] -- Lethargy 19:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
There are an awful lot of statements in this article beginning with "members believe...". Something about these statements bothers me. Perhaps it is because in order to back up these statements we would need to cite church officials or doctrine, rather than members. Perhaps it would look better with "the Church teaches..."?
Whatever the reason, something about these statements smells a little fishy... or weaselly. Comments? -- Lethargy 02:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The reason "Members believe" is often used is because of "Members" writing the articles. I believe therfore "Members believe" (and they might be right). I very much agree with both of your statements. I do think "Church teaches..." should also have citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Impending ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 26 September 2006
There are situations where members believe, but the Church doesn't teach, so there can be differences. There is a considerable culture that has grown up among members of the church that is often confused with church teachings. For example, the Stake Presidency in my stake believes that priesthood leaders should wear white shirts and ties (as opposed to other colors). There is no church teaching that supports this position, but it is a common belief, just the same. If you look at General Conference, you won't see many non-white shirts, but you also can't find any church teaching that states that only white shirts should be worn. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 13:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Lethargy is right OR maybe you should add the "white shirts" angle to this page and all the other Mormon pages. VERIFICATION seems to be missing from all of these pages. Impending 04:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the History section is causing me trouble. The entire paragraph is what LDS believes is the case, not what is generally accepted. I hate the style of writing where we have to say "according to the LDS" in every sentence, but I can see that there might be confusion. I'm going to try something to make it more explicit. DJ Clayworth 20:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I just did the page move as requested. I checked, and you've got over 1500 links coming in now through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints redirect. I'll bet a bot could fix all of those. There are a few more redirects, though I think I snapped all the doubles. None of them except that big one has more than a hundred incoming links or so, and most have none at all.
Also, I found this page: -Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints-, which is a disambiguation page. Maybe some of those redirects should be pointed at it? I don't know. - GTBacchus( talk) 09:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of entries in this section that have been tagged as needing citations, but more than that some don't even mention why they are controversial, and others contain weasel words. A few of those that have particular problems which cannot be addressed with {{ who}} or {{ fact}} include:
"On June 9, 1978, a new revelation was announced, permitting all "worthy" males to receive the Priesthood."
Lethargy - I'll let you do more tagging if that works for you and revisit later. Keep up the good work. I don't have as much time to edit as I once had.
Sorry if this seems a bit blunt, Kmsiever, but I'm aware of exactly where each of the statements about utah's statehood and polygamy came from. That said, it, like the belief of some that polygamy will be re-instituted during the millenium is a case of mormon folklore. No president of the church, nor apostle has taught this (other general authorities, including BRMcC did in MD, but prior to being an apostle - other leaders disagreed with his assessment, including his father in law and all presidents of the church since that time who said we simply don't know), nor is there evidence to support these ideas were/are true or the motivation behind denouncing polygamy. Was it a factor? Possibly. Just the same as prison terms, disenfranchisement of members (regardeless if they practiced or not), loss of millions of church-owned acreages (which have never been returned) and other confiscation of personal properties, which was given to military and enforcement personell for personal use, as was done in Missouri. That said, there were much more pressing items such as a bill in congress giving death sentences to polygamists, confiscation of church properties and monies and other issues that were much more a factor than statehood by 1890. Please remember, that the confiscation of money and property led to the church's near bankrupsy issues that led President Snow to re-emphasize tithing. To put it blunt, between 1880 and 1890, the church lost millions (in 19th century money, not 20th century equivelents) of dollars due to polygamy. Cash and property and disenfranchisement were much more a motivation than statehood. The belief about statehood came from morgan's reading of smoot's belief that Mormon polygamy could not be prosecuted under the Edmunds and Edmunds-tucker acts as the act was specific to US territories (not states). That said, if utah got statehood, then polygamy couldn't be prosecuted. In any case, please cite a primary document I may have overlooked, rather than secondary sources and opinions of Compton or Morgan. If you have one, it is possible that I overlooked this as a main reason in any of the discussions leading up to the manifesto.
Masamage and Lethargy - hopefully the OD1 quote will help with wording.
Lethargy, I'll take a break while you fix and add in more cites? - Visorstuff 17:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
“ | Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. | ” |
-- Lethargy 17:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Haha. You sound like my boss today - she always reminds me I use "some" "a number of" "various" and similar phrases in my writing too much (and if i didn't write all day, i'd probably do a better job of spelink and CaPiTaliaTION. Point taken. Let me see if I can dig up some better examples for the Islamic criticism and look for word replacements for "some" and "others." I hope to come back to this later today. Good luck with your conjuntivitis - hope you feel better. - Visorstuff 18:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed: "(In a similar way, many times Biblical prophets speak in the first person as though they are the mouthpiece of the Lord<ref>{{lds|Isaiah|isa|53|12}}, {{lds|Isaiah|isa|61|1}}, {{lds|Revelation|rev|1|8}}, {{lds|Revelation|rev|22|16}}</ref>).
This is a particular interpretation of the Bible, presumably specific to the LDS. Firstly and most importantly it needs to be referenced. Secondly, while these prophets do indeed speak in the first person, since they are (claiming to) speak the very words of God, in most interpretations of scripture they don't claim to be omniscient or in any way God. DJ Clayworth 16:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
In the introduction, the second paragraph seems excessively long. Does anyone else agree it should be shortened, and if so, how should it be done? -- Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 21:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The main points should be (and few of them are even in the introduction):
Notice there is little doctrine other than that which pertains to the cration and history of the church. not much if anything about Jesus Christ. That should go into the body of the article under Beliefs->Jesus Christ. Bytebear 21:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought someone was working on a new header paragraph. I am seeing more and more beliefs and explainations being put into it. First it was a huge diatribe on belief in Christ, and now there is a huge paragraph on Faith and Works. I see mainstream Christians need to point out the differences and LDS trying to justify and explain their point of view. Both sides should be presented. They should NOT be presented in the intro section. It's way too long and way too detailed. Look at User:Ginkgo100/WiP02 and let's try to comform to something simpler and more structured. We have a dozen pages on LDS beliefs and practices. We don't need every detail of the faith spelled out in the first paragraph. Bytebear 16:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Some did shorten it, and the Trodel changed it back. Frankly not only is it too long, but it reads like an advertisement, or an evangelistic tract. We wouldn't accept "XYZ corp invites people everywhere to sample their tasty snack food" and we shouldn't accept language like that from a church. DJ Clayworth 17:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there a better temple image out there? The one on the site has some relections of light on the corner which makes it look kinda funny. Bytebear 20:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose to add a section on Family under the Major Beliefs section, or at least add it under Plan of Salvation. One of the major aspects of a Latter-day Saint's faith, as it might be inferred from the recent LDS General Conference, is the family. Yet nowhere in this article do I find a substantial paragraph of information concerning LDS beliefs about family relations. Such a section might include topics such as the Proclamation on the Family, Eternal Marriage, the Church's emphasis on the roles of fathers and mothers, the emphasis on raising children, Family Home Evening, etc. As a backup to my argument, one can find that the sole topic of the LDS Church's Worldwide Leadership Training earlier in 2006 was the Family. Any input/comments? Sylverdin 21:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
This was recently removed entirely for being redundant, and then put back; I'd like to ask that some serious discussion be had before someone considers removing it again. This article gets accused of being +POV all the time, and we need that section if we're to have any hope of seeming balanced. Even if it is a little redundant. -- Masamage 01:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
-- Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 19:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a weasel word tag on the controversy section at the moment. I have changed the following phrase from "Many doctrines and practices of the Church, both past and present, are viewed by many as controversial" to "Certain doctrines and practices of the Church, both past and present, are viewed as being controversial." Reason: what constitutes many and who are the "many" who view these as controversial? If it stays in the original, would it not require a citation? I'm relatively new to this, so tell me if that is right. Sylverdin 14:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the discussion/poll at Wikipedia:Mormon collaboration. To save you a trip to that page, you can vote or comment on it here and it will be counted. Comment as you want, but please only vote if you are able and willing to help with this collaboration.
The tone of this article strikes me as that of a member of the Church, rather than a NPOV and formal tone. It is currently
poorly referenced, uses
weasel words ("members believe", "some say", "many non-members", etc.) and might be
longer than is preferred. I would like to improve this to a point that I can submit it for
peer review without obvious flaws in the article.
(
vote or comment)
Support:
Comments:
There seem to be two things missing from here that I would have thought of as major beliefs. One is the status of Joseph Smith as a prophet. The second is the presence of pre-Columbian Christian civilisations in the Americas. Surely both of these deserve a mention. DJ Clayworth 13:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Trodel, you seem to have attempted to strip the entire criticism section down to one sentence per item. I think that needs some explanation. Why do you think this is a good idea? DJ Clayworth 19:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I think a little more explanation is required than a bald statement of the doctrine. For example the summary of the 'apostasy' section really gives no idea of why it is controversial, and you would have to wade through quite a lot of the article you are directed to in order to find out the details of it. I think you'll have even more trouble if you try to cut the 'Major doctrines' section down in the same way. Let's see what other people think.
Incidentally, I think the 'weasel words' section may be out of date now. Most of the controversies have been tidied up. DJ Clayworth 20:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's get the fuller version back. This article already has enough of the feel of an advert. DJ Clayworth 23:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I see several edits where additions of "Members believe ..." or "The church claims ...". I really think these although well intended do not really balance POV, in that the original statement isn't really NPOV to begin with. For example:
was changed to:
Is it just me or is it overkill to add NPOV statements three times in the same paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bytebear ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 12 October 2006
The problem (as I see it) is that if we state church doctrine and phrase it as if it were facts, that is POV. Indisputed facts can be stated plainly, but beliefs must be labeled as such. Again, IANAL, IMHO, etc. ;^) wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 03:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else see a leetle problem with the criticism that there is a causal relationship between the Law of Tithing and Utah's very high bankruptcy rate? The article cited as authority for the claim mentions Utah's elevated charitable giving and large family size in passing, but spends the bulk of its discussion on the problem of extremely high credit card debt. Is there some authoritative source that can document a causal relationship between the faithful paying of tithing and going bankrupt? It currently says The Law of Tithing is often criticized, except the cited article doesn't criticize it. the relation of tithing to bankruptcy is minimized or ignored in Mormon sources, except there's nothing backing that up, either. If there was no relation of tithing to bankruptcy then it would hardly be surprising that no-one mentioned it, would it? And if there were, perhaps somebody has documented it reliably somewhere. Otherwise I think this passage is somebody's lame attempt to sneak in POV. Mike 08:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I moved the criticism of tithing as related to bankruptcy to the criticism section and removed the POV material, such as However, the relation of tithing to bankruptcy is minimized or ignored in Mormon sources. I don't know what to do about the other parts, since they seem to be more a matter of statistic interest than anything else, but where should it go (if anywhere)? Mike 23:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Can we remove the weasel words "has been criticized" and name specific critics?
"Also, if everything has to positivistically "proven" to be included in this article, then the article is going to get short awfully quick."
That's not necessarily a bad thing ;)
"it is fact to state something like "some scholars and anecdotal evidence suggests there is a correlation between widespread LDS tithing and Utah's high bankruptcy rates""
See
Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words, as well as
Wikipedia:Verifiability, which states:
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research."
Like many other things in this article, this still needs verification. -- Lethargy 04:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't have an issue with the citation, or their coorelation. But I do think it is not really a controversy or even criticsm. The implication is that tithing should be abolished or that church members ae being pushed too hard into giving funds to the church (which is a criticsm but only to those who oppose the church, or organized religion in general). A couple things to consider. First, the church is not going to abolish tithing, and any reputable study would not suggest such a thing. Second, the church has always encouraged its members to be self sufficient and not rely on government intervention including bankruptsy. I think maybe a section on conserns or Church conserns. It is not just a criticsm from outside sources, but a real consern of the leadership within the church. Bytebear 20:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that missionaries are only mentioned twice, both in the Use of church funds section, stating that money is used to support missionary programs. Perhaps we should create a subsection about Mormon missionaries, since the Church has a very active missionary program, and all young men are encouraged to go on one. That being said, I don't know what sources to use to create this section. Where can I find how many missionaries there are and other statistics? -- Lethargy 19:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the Temple section to a main header, as I feel it is important enough to warrent it. There has been a bit of discussion on private talk pages regarding Baptism for the Dead, and it is sorely lacking in this article. I don't want the article to be bloated, but I am thinking categorically that we should include a section under Temples for "Endowment", "Eternal Marriage and Sealings", "Baptism for the Dead", and "Other ordinances". I don't want a lot of details but have See also headings for each section.
An alternative is to move the Temple section under Beliefs, but I don't want to end up throwing everything under Beliefs as a catch all. Bytebear 04:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
After reading some more about this subject I feel that an expanded section on it should be added to the page. I didn't realize how controversal it had become, epecially when it concerns Holocaust victims. Since it is an official policy of the church I feel that it should be included on this page; a separate article seems to lessen the severity of this practice. Duke53 | Talk 17:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I am working on beefing up the History section of the article. I added a good solid paragraph from the Utah article about early settlement, but it lacks citations. It even has a fairly even handed paragraph on Mountain Meadows Masacre, so don't accuse me of pro-LDS POV. I also changed the polygamy section to Plural Marriage. I think the main paragraph should be moved to the Beliefs section however as it is too broad to fit into any one paragraph of history. So PLEASE help make the article better by adding citations and correcting my errors.
And if anyone is reading Rough Stone Rolling, please highlight and annotate it. It's a great resource that we should be citing left and right.
Bytebear 05:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi I've moved the disambig page to -=The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (disambiguation)=- please do not link to it but link all pages to the appropriate article. The origianal Disambig page was the same name as this articl minus the THE and minus the hyphen. It was catching all sorts of links that were supposed to be sent here instead. So i switched it. :) Peace. -- Home Computer 15:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your comments. I understand your concern. The disambiguation page recieved over 100 misapropriated links. That is, OVER 100 links to it that meant to go to the mainpage instead, due to the obvious typos and what not. A real disambiguation page needs to be clearly differeentiated (such as with (disambiguation) after the title (see Bible (disambiguation))) and not generate accidental traffic due to typos as was unfortunately happening. The new disambiguation page is clearly marked as is this mainpage with links to all the others. Peace. -- Home Computer 18:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought, if you'd prefer moving the disambig pate to Latter Day Saint movement(disambig) I'd have no prob with that as it would fit categoriclly but it doesn't share the same titles in it's word for which the disambig was created. -- Home Computer 19:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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An image is repeated (picture of a vitraux).
I replaced the image with that of the Christus Statue. I think a good picture would be of a baptism or of laying on of hands for the obvious sections. Bytebear 22:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Did Smith shoot (and maybe kill) some people the night he himself was killed? I have read a couple articles that say that this is so. Duke53 | Talk 01:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the edits that incorporated this into the rest of the article. This section is a summary of a daughter article and needs to stay. CovenantD 04:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
<unindent>In many ways this article should function as a disambiguation page with summaries. Look through the rest of it and you'll see that most section branch off into their own articles. When a section gets too large, it is spun off into it's own article with a summary of that article here. By removing the Controversies section in this article, it ceases to function as that balanced point of further reading and becomes a footnote instead. CovenantD 00:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to read this link: [18] ^ Anderson, Karl Ricks, Joseph Smith's Kirtland: Eyewitness Accounts,1989 but it leads nowhere. Do I have to find a copy of this book somewhere to verify the cite (and many of the other cites)? Duke53 | Talk 04:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Should this be moved to the Culture section rather than the Beliefs section. Maybe break the section up on doctrinal vs. cultural lines? Thoughts. Bytebear 21:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't feel that the Worship service section adds very much useful information to the article, and for the sake of making the article shorter, and therefore easier to read, I think it should be removed or severely shortened, mentioning just the sacrament and testimony meeting perhaps. Additionally, it is not referenced enough, and is mostly original research and possibly incorrect, for instance "Although all women and girls meet together briefly at the beginning of the hour for a prayer, hymn, and announcements..." this is not done in my stake. -- Lethargy 22:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
For problems with neutrality, original research, lack of references, and stability, I have delisted this from GA standard. If you disagree, you can seek a review at Wikipedia:Good articles/Review. -- Lethargy 23:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
"Part of this 'perceived' threat may have resulted because of a speech given by Sidney Rigdon (and approved by Joseph Smith) on July 4th, 1838 that declared: "And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them until the last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to exterminate us, for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed". [10]"
This has been edited several times (the first time was by me, not sure who did it the other times) but has been reverted with the edit summary "this is an exact copy of the original; do not revert it again or I will report it as vandalism. Editors are not allowed to edit quotes to suit themselves."
The problems with the bold text (as well as the quotes for perceived) are that it advances a POV, and that the actual original does not have the text in bold, that was added by the website which hosts the quote. -- Lethargy 02:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Before putting in POV text like "illegal acts by Mormon members" I would recommend finding a verifiable source. Just a thought. Bytebear 03:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Folks lets calm down. Please read history of the church and comprehensive history of the church as to why the church migrated from ohio to Missouri. It was a planned move since 1832 based on the revelation to build up Zion and for the church to move there. That move was delayed by the revelation to build and finish the temple. The temple was dedicated and the "keys were restored" about the same time (1836-7) the Safety Society was established (as were other anti-banking institutions (see the Kirtland Eyewitness accounts book - easily available from Amazon, if you have any issues finding it at your local LDS/Deseret/Seagull or other bookstore). Smith fled to zion due to threats on his life, but it wasn't until 1838 that he a revelation was receieved that it was time for the rest of the saints to sell land and gather in missouri, which led to the election year and bloc voting issues over slavery that caused the gallatin battle, which led to the extermination order. The land sales were not complete until 1839 about the time that smith was imprisoned in richmond jail due to Boggs' executive order making being mormon an act of treason against the state. Having spend time with the smith papers and reading the actual sources mentioned (most of the sources mentioned can be found at just about any university library) this was a planned migration that was delayed due to the promise of temple blessings that seemed to take place at a convienent time, but was planned for long before. I can see why it is easy for duke and others to come to that conclusion, but from a historian's perspective it was more coincidental than cause and effect - especially when smith didn't direct the migration for some time thereafter. hope this context helps - and to be honest, volumes 1 and 2 of hsitory of the church really are the best sources - especially BH roberts footnotes - which tend to be controversial in many LDS circles (as they are not "faith promoting," but historically sound).
Now, as an admin - some advice. As far as verifiability - I'm confused at this discussion, as it quickly degenerated for absolutely no reason. Duke53 - you appear to be saying not to quote anything that is not online. I know that is not what you mean, but that is how it is coming across. Masamage, please slow down and try to understand what he is saying as far as verifiability. I think that with the current citing system, we can provide the quotes from the books in the footnotes. As far as bolded text, that is from the website you are referring to, not the original text - at least the copy I have. Bytebear, keep up your good work, but be slower to jump to historical conclusions without reading the primary documents. Too many of the editors on these pages try to follow secondary sources which have other's theories instead of looking at the primary documents, which then leads to POV in these articles. All I'm saying is taht the three of you in this dispute not draw historical conclusions where there is either no evidence, or where there is evidence pointing the otehr way. to state as much would qualify as WP:OR - statements such as "I say that the church left because their leader was going to be prosecuted for his criminal behavior (Duke53) and "The church left because either the government forced them to leave, or they were attacked by mobs and had their houses and farms burned" (bytebear) are not only both historically unsound, but are original research and theories promulgated by the uniformed, which neither of you should be with today's reseach technology. - Visorstuff 10:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Duke53, please slow down and actually read what I wrote. I'm not suggesting that we only use the history of the church (and, yes to your other question, much of it and smith's journals was published serially in the times and seasons, etc. by Smith during his life). I am suggesting we use primary documents and quotations from the sources on items rather than someones interpretation of someone elses interpretation of someone else's research on various topics. I'm just as happy quoting from Hurlburt as Roberts.
Yes, I am suggesting that if you need to verify something taht you take the time to do it properly. I am the geek that goes though footnotes in Britannica to read where they get information, and do the same with academic papers and here. Does it take effort? Yes. But if you want good articles, you need to use sources that are not always readily available. Most university libraries have sharing programs and can get copies of the sources listed in this article with very little effort. You should try it sometime.
And if it were that easy to read a source, we really wouldn't need an encylopedia (or wikipedia) to share information. We could just post a link instead of having an article.
Unfortunately there is something called copyright that disallows everything written to be posted on the internet. What I am suggesting is that you, me and everyone else read primary sources, rather than some internet site which would be a tertiary source. The history of the church, while it may be POV, is one such primary source. So would the Warsaw Signal (non-Mormon), Harper's weekly, and more.
I am going to guess you have no academic training, based on your questions "how does Joseph Smith's diary qualify as a source?" There are three type of sources used by historians. Let me break it down:
History of the church is one primary document, as it was published (for the most part) serially during Smith's life by himself. Yet, so are journal entries of Luke Johnson about this time period about persecuting the Mormons, which would corraberate the details I've shared above, but from the opposing side.
If you want to have a watered down version of the article without details and primary sources that are truly verifiablle, the article would read something to the effect that someone claiming to be the church has a web site at LDS.org. Everything else could be doctored as you say.
Based on your statement: "My idea of a verifiable source is one that I can show to anyone who questions a statement that I may add to an article" How do you suggest we prove that the document or book says what we say it does? - Visorstuff 21:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm 'guessing' that the plan to ignore me has spread from more than just
Bytebear and
Masamage so I will just continue as if people were truly willing to make the article as truthful as possible.
The reason I asked if Smith's diaries were published unedited (by him) was this little item I found while researching:
"The nineteenth-century propaganda mill was so adroit that few outside Brigham Young's inner circle were aware of the behind-the-scenes alterations so seamlessly stitched into church history. Charles Wesley Wandell, an assistant church historian, was aghast at these emendations. Commenting on the many changes made in the historical work as it was being serialized in the Deseret News, Wandell noted in his diary:
I notice the interpolations because having been employed in the Historian's office at Nauvoo by Doctor Richards, and employed, too, in 1845, in compiling this very autobiography, I know that after Joseph's death his memoir was 'doctored' to suit the new order of things, and this, too, by the direct order of Brigham Young to Doctor Richards and systematically by Richards. The Quorum of the Twelve, under Young's leadership, began altering the historical record shortly after Smith's death. Contrary to the introduction's claim, Smith did not author the History of the Church". [14]
If there is doubt about the truthfulness of the actual author of the History of the Church then perhaps there could be doubts about its contents is all I'm saying. Duke53 | Talk 05:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
A little higher up in this section wrp103 (Bill Pringle) commented:
Since I had heard rather the opposite about availability of historical records at some point, I went searching and found a post at Times and Seasons (yes, yes, a blog written by Mormons). In cogent point, the writer (who is evidently a profession researcher) states:
So much for official unavailability of historical documents. Mike 03:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not involved in this debate or in editing the article, but I would like to respond to Duke53's challenge of Smith's edited diaries as a valid source. The answer is yes it is. It is a POV source, which is good. Go back and read WP:NPOV, and notice that it does not say not to represent points of view, but to represent them equally. This means sourcing POV material, in the interest of creating an article that represents all points of view, even those an editor may find distasteful.
Aside from this, please assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. -- INTRIGUEBLUE ( talk| contribs) 01:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Just thought I'd point out: Since it was a *speech* given by Rigdon, the word "extermination" was neither bold nor non-bold in the original. It was spoken. Novel-Technology 16:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there are a number of individuals with very strong ideas concerning the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While having strong ideas is a good thing, it is also neccessary to share those ideas and feelings with respect. And we can't simply wait for the other person or persons to be respectful first. We have to begin it ourselves. Just a little reminder to remember that respect is essential in our conversations (EVEN if we don't agree with the other user). Have a great day (or night, whatever time zone you're in!) Sylverdin 19:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Duke53, I'm not sure why you have so much anomosity toward us - and me in particular. I've not contradicted you or any of your edits, only tried to share context and guide the discussion. Frankly I'm suprised at your reactions.
That said, you obviosuly believe in some aspects of Mormon (or exmormon or AntiMormon) folklore. Let me take each of your comments one by one.
First a definition. An autograph is something that is penned directly by someone. It is the ultimate of primary documents. An autograph is something like a journal or the original book of mormon manuscript in the handwriting of oliver cowdery. He later made a copy which is called the printers manuscript, which would not be called an autograph, as it is a copy. Hope this makes sense, as I'll use the term below.
Yes, portions of Smith's diary (uncut) were published under his direction during his life (please see a copy of early church publications - which contained even his now-controversial "egyptian alphabet work." Many more has been published as "the Papers of Joseph Smith" and "the Words of Joseph Smith" and "Personal Writings of Joseph Smith"- you can do an amazon.com search for Dean Jesse and other authors. Pretty much everything he has ever written is now published and available in autograph (scanned) format, and has been verifed by both mormon and non-Mormon historians as authentic. However, after the Saints came to utah, they republished the history of the church into seven volumes. Some items were changed to meet historical accuracy, to downplay some events (due to the political climate of the 1870s-1890s) and other items. If people want to read the original, you can still purchase originals of times and seasons and millenial star or even get scanned copies from multiple sources. I for one, have purchased them (I buy some rare Mormon books and other documents). Even in the preface of the history of the church volume 1, it says that many items were changed, and in some cases, footnotes describe why they were changed (in some cases they don't). It was never a big secret. Just like changes in the book of Mormon were discussed at length in the Ensign when they came out with the new version. The changes are the most accurate to autograph copies (not printer copies) of the transcribed Book of mormon manuscript.
The idea of a closed archives is a myth. I've never met a historian that has gone to the church archives that has made this claim and meant it, aside from the tanners. In fact, see a recent discussion of this myth at [15] by a well-respected historian. I've also spent time at the church historical office and church archives. You obviously have not, or you would not make such a claim. No you can't check out items, but you can transcribe whatever you want, and make copies of most other items. When you go in, everything is available except loose uncatalogued items and minutes from meetings of the following: the first presidency, the quorum of 12, the presiding bishopric, and the council of fifty (unless they have been supeoned during a court case. Also, specific revelations, such as the revelation discontinuing polygamy, the John taylor revelation on the priesthood are typically not made available to the casual researcher. Once something has been catalogued, it is made available to everyone. You just have to request it. Now, as for the "secrecy" of these minutes, I know of no CEO/CFO/lawyer minutes that any corporation lets go public. Each of these groups discuss financial matters, legal issue and other information that most corprations don't release eaither. Remember the Church is a non-profit corporation, and as such follows standard corporate procedures. This is yet one. The myth was created by two sources. Arrington and the Tanners. Arrington was the church historian, and tanners were an anti-Mormon group. Arrington's issue was that in teh 1970s, one could go through shoeboxes of letters prior to them being catalogued, and that you could see envelopes, and other historical items that to most would seem insignificant, but to ahistorian gives even more insight into the writer. That was done away with new catalogue systems - now a researcher must think to request a copy of the envelope, not jsut the letter. As for the tanners, It's easy to say something is not made avaialbe and that the church is "secretive" on items that way you don't have to prove what you are saying. Most of the stuff they wanted were either revelations or minutes of the above listed meetings.
That was in a speech given to seminary teachers of high school students. Of course they wouldn't share "everything" with a 15-year old. Who would? Your high school teacher probably didn't discuss why some believe gravity is a theory not a law, or what problems there are with evolutionary theory, or why geometric math makes 1+1 more than 2. Rather you learned gravity works, evolution is observable and 1+1=2. Are those wrong? No. But they don't paint a complete picture. In teh LDS church personal study is encouraged on the deeper topics, but not to teach to high schoolers.
See comments above about why things were changed in response to the first question.
There are doubts about every historical event. That is the nature of history. Again, had you had formal historical training, you'd know many of these details. Most of Smith's journals were actually written (under his direction and then approved) by his personal secretaries that were with him at the time of the events recorded. Like presidents of the United States, journals are recorded by diction or by staffers. No difference.
John spent no time at the church historical office doing any research for his book. He simply doesn't know. I rather think that what we have is a much more accurate picture of what happened. For instance: you have three peices of historical evidence. one journal entry says that on a a certain day smith said that he believed that men lived on the moon. Two other journal entries from that day by others say that he was in another town giving a speech about slavery. So, could he have made such a statement? Which do you believe? Answer: none of them - you throw out the incident, as there is no additional evidence to prove that smith was in either location. However, if you found a boat ticket, or other evidence showing smith was in one place at that time, then you can solidify which event took place. Does the church quote from either source in this instance? no. But a historian may quote from both.
Back to your original concern, there is enough evidence for many of the items in the article. I'm fine with including or un-including information that is or isn't accurate, but we have to be careful to include enough to help the reader understand context. In the instance above, we may include both sources on wikipedia, but let the reader decide. If you have some other primary evidence that seeminly discounts what is here, please add it in and let the reader decide what they think. No need to un-include something just because we think the source is POV. Every source has a POV, as we all see things through our own eyes. See Wikipedia:Verifiability.
Hope this helps, as you seem to have bought into a lot of folklore and half-truths that are promulgated by the uninformed (I do not think maliciously). Most claims and "groundbreaking findings" made by the exmormon community were discussed at length in the Ensign or Church news and are of no suprise to church members who read them - from changes in the book of Mormon to the Salamander letter. And you can verify what I'm saying on your next trip to SLC to the historical office. East wing of church office building, past the metal detectors and security guard. Why don't you find out for yourself by making a bit of sacrifice instead of being blindly obedience to those who say they know, but really don't?
I hope you are not offended as none is intended, but it does seem that you've obviously already made up your mind about this and have confirmation bias, which is fine. All i'm asking is that you spend time and effort checking sources for yourself, rather than trusting the internet. - Visorstuff 22:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Not quite sure what your question is, as it has nothing to do with what I wrote. I will answer, but please stay on topic, as you seem to be just wanting to argue rather than examine what is written. If I remember right the topic is integrity of sources.
If the book of mormon was translated today, it would undoubtedly use different word choices as vocabulary has changed. Even Joseph Smith and Brigham Young stated this. So are you saying we should have kept publishing errors in the Book of Mormon that are not what SMith gave in his dictation?
There are four different accounts of the process of translating - Whitmer's is only one. Harris claimed Smith used "spectacles" that were "the" urim and thummin. David Whitmers claimed he looked at a seer stone in a hat. His Brother said he would wear a breastplate and urim and thummim, and Cowdery said a seer stone, urim and thummim and after the priesthood was restored, he used no device to aid in translation. (I didn't include family member accounts, such as his wife and brother). None of the accounts contradict each other, but rather corraberate. Remember, Urim and Thummim is the process of using a device for getting divine answers. See Urim and Thummim. So whether or not smith used a breastplate with clear stones, a spectacle, a hat, one of two odd stones, himself or a palm pilot to translate is irrelevant, as the word usage the Smith used urim and thummim to translate would be correct in each case. Some just choose to interpret as a pair of glasses, including Brigham Young and yourself, niether of whom would know as you both weren't there.
The recent changes to the Book of Mormon, as stated in the book of Mormon introduction and the ensign magazine, which published the changes, is to bring the current text back in line with the original penned by Cowdery as dictated by Smith. When something is transcribed by a printer (especially with lead type) mistakes happen, such as an entire paragraph missing in Alma 32 that has been missing from every book of mormon prior to 1981, when the error was corrected after the church purchased that section of the original manuscript. Or "White and Delightsome" to "Pure and delightsome" as in the original text (and which was edited back to the original by Smith in the 1838 edition, but reverted to "white" in the 1842 edition. Simply put, no one knew these items were wrong until the originals were found and studies, as the printer's manuscript had some errors as well. Remember, (I'm sure you've read this in your study of the Book of Mormon) that Cowdery made two copies of what he wrote from Smith's mouth - the second had some transcription errors, just as hand-written bibles from the middle ages often do. That's what happens when you copy 600 pages by hand. Therefore, changes back to the original or what Smith edited (as he was the translator) should be allowed. It makes the text more accurate to the original and gives the book more integrity. However, no one seems to point out that part, they just claim that changes were made. I've actually gone through and made comparisons to versions myself I have an 1830 copy, and many other early utah period books of mormon that I've compared. Have you?
Please remember, Wikipedia is not a place for Apologetics - either pro or con. (if you don't know, apologetics is the systematic defense of a position - which you are engaged in and encouraging other mormon editors to engage in your and their respective positions). You and they are not here to convince each other of the wrongfulness or correctness of your respecive views or to prove a point. We are here to share sources and ideas and let the reader decide. If you have soruces, add them. If not, Wikipedia is not a forum to argue. If you want to do that, I'd recommend a Mormon or exmormon bullitin board or Yahoo Group. - Visorstuff 23:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, you haven't read what I wrote. How is whitmer's account wrong? How is cowdery's accoutn wrong? how is the HOC account wrong? They are consistent.
I'm not slamming your 'lack of education,' however, your responses lead me to asnwer you in this way, as you wouldn't respond how you do if you had that understanding - or if you read what is written.
I have handled multiple 1830 books of mormon. My replica is accurate to the original. I'm still not sure your point. - Visorstuff 00:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I do wish however, that you'd actually do some real research rather than taking someone else's internet site as fact. Of course holding a letter penned by Smith himself doesn't seem to satisfy as much as a the "accuracy" of some Geocities site to some. For example, there are multiple errors in transcription with the whitmer quote from the original pamphlet. Your quotation has been modernized. - Visorstuff 00:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm dizzy from your logic. You believe what you read on the internet, but you don't believe the original documents. Confirmation bias? Yes. Its always a conspiracy isn't it? This is a completely asinine conversation, as you only want to argue.
You asked two questions which I will answer.
1. "why are you so sure it's 'accurate' to the original?"
Cause I've actually spent time looking at both the original published versions, the text written by cowdery, the printers manuscript and my current edition (and others). As a historian, i'm positive that the documents i examined were what they were. This is what I do.
2. "... why not just use the 'original' always"
That's what we'd like to do here - but you have a problem with sourcing them as they are not on the internet. plus...
If the original you speak of is the manuscript written by cowdery: Its hard to pass around a 175+ year old handwritten piece of paper to everyone who wants to read the original text written by oliver for everyone who wants to read the book of mormon. There were no Xerox machines back then.
If its the printers manuscript - there were errors made when it was copied by hand from the original. Its close - and what was used in some versions.
If its the first edition, why use a copy that has ink smears from the printing process and misspellings from a printer who liked to spell words differently than Cowdery, and kept errors from the printers manuscript while the original was kept safe. and at times the printer accidentally left out entire paragraphs? He was human too.
Even the tanners discussed the changes in some of their work. They pointed out why the text changed in some cases, and they pointed out the doctrinal ramifications (albeit small in my opinion) that they made.
If you need to discuss further, please move this to my talk page, as we are completely off topic at this point. A question to start off for there - why do you think changes have been made? Maybe all of us are lying about that too? The church said they were going to make changes and discussed the changes before they were made in church publications - but since you don't believe anything they say, perhaps there aren't changes then? So then this discussion is moot and done.
Historical research takes effort. You apparently don't want to give effort. - Visorstuff 03:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This article is getting ridiculously long. As of now, it's 181 kB, which is twice as long as the article for the Roman Catholic Church, which has a history about five times as long, and 100 times the membership. The problem is, everyone thinks this page has to be everything to everybody, and we end up duplicating work that goes on in other pages. Much of this article is about church history, which is extensively covered in several other articles, including History of the Latter Day Saint movement and History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Another problem is that the article goes into too much detail on the various doctrinal issues, which are explained ad nauseum on other pages. There is no need to repeat everything here. There are too many other issues that should be discussed on this page to fill it up with duplicate historical or theological information. Considering interest in this article, it should have obtained featured status long ago. This article should essentially be a summary article—an introduction to meatier articles elsewhere. Is anybody interested in helping with the pruning? COGDEN 00:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Good work, however, i'm struggling a bit between Service of Worship (Mormonism) and Sacrament meeting. I think there is also a sunday school page. Is there too much overlap there. Also shouldn't it be Worship services (Latter-day Saint)? Wording is a bit clunky to me. But like the result/how it turned out in general. Thoughts? - Visorstuff 03:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Bytebear - I completely agree with you - you are onto something - lets merge where it makes sense. I actually think that Latter-day Saint worship services would be the ideal name, after having thought about it, and have it be more of a quick overview and disabiguation page that points to articles on Sunday School, Sacrament Meeting, General Conference, primary, stake conference and other articles.
COGDEN, what do you think about the (Latter-day Saint) appendage to articles for naming conventions. I see you've revisited the Latter Day Saint and Mormonism naming conventions lately - is it time to make some better changes to the conventions? - Visorstuff 16:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I merged two smaller sections (Unique Authority and Calling of the Prophet) under beliefs and placed them in Leadership and Priesthood. They were only a paragraph in length and much of the info already seemed to be stated in the other section. If someone can read it and see if there is still redundancy, that would be great!!! Thanks! Sylverdin 17:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I changed the article Service of worship (Mormonism) to Latter-day Saint worship services, but I still wonder if this should be the correct usage. What about these conventions ( I use Priesthood as an example with info from the naming convention guide):
Articles about the religion, doctrines, belief systems, and cultures of the Latter Day Saint movement, and that could apply to more than one Latter Day Saint denomination, should use the word "Mormonism".
Articles about only one Latter Day Saint denomination should use the full name of the denomination as it exists on the denomination's Wikipedia page.
So which should we use?
I am leaning toward the second as we can add info for other denominations somewhere in the article and "Services of worship" sounds too hoity toity. Bytebear 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Here are my suggestions for areas that can be summarized These are my opinions, so please give constructive feedback:
Bytebear 23:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Before I do any trimming on the article, I wanted to get some input. I think the first principles and ordinances section is too long and can be reduced to a single segment. I also like "The nature of God" as a title rather than "The Godhead". It just seems to be more understandable to the causual reader. The Plan of Salvation also seems a bit bloated. Maybe a section called "The nature of man" instead?
Bytebear
22:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the tags at the top of the article are not useful in identifying what sections/areas need improvement. For example, the intro has no weasel words that I can find and some sections have no neutrality problems - we should move tags to those sections that need the specific help.
-- Lethargy 19:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, is the largest denomination within the
Latter Day Saint movement, Its adherents describe itwhich describes itself as the
restoration of the original
1st century
Christian church and. Adherents view themselves as
Christians, though not part of the
Catholic,
Orthodox, or
Protestant traditions."
"The church teaches that
Jesus Christ appeared with
God the Father to
Joseph Smith, Jr. and
called him to be a prophet and to re-organize the original church established by Jesus Christ through a
restoration ofrestore elements that had been missing from
Christianity since the
Great Apostasy. This restoration> included the return of
priesthood authority, new
sacred texts, and the calling of
twelve apostles. Like other
Latter Day Saint denominations, the church claims succession tofrom the
Church of Christ founded by Smith in
April 6
1830, following his translation of the
Book of Mormon from which adherents—also called
Latter-day Saints—get their nickname Mormons."
"Smith led the church until his violent
death in 1844. After a period of confusion where the church was led by the
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and various
claims of succession were made,
Brigham Young led a group of
Mormon pioneers away from the former church headquarters in
Nauvoo, Illinois and eventually enteredto the
Salt Lake Valley of
Utah in July
1847. Young was ordained
President of the church in December 1847, and the group following him became The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The church is Now an international organization, the church has its world headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah remains the world church headquarters, where Gordon B. Hinckley serves as its fifteenth President. In 2005 the church reported a worldwide enrolled membership of over 12.5 million[2], although many of those members no longer affiliate with the organization.
Converts from areas where polygamy is an accepted practice typically must end such relationships.
This is probably a pretty rare thing, which explains why I have never heard this before. I would assume that this policy applies to those practicing polygamy where it is illegal as well, and I'm not sure if "typically" is accurate or not. Can we find a source which verifies this? -- Lethargy 02:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the image was deleted. Was there a source statement for that image? It looks like a bunch of non-sourced images were deleted recently.
Also, I noticed a red category on requested images. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 23:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
If you read The Godhead, 3rd paragraph, Joseph Smith comment is:
These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; --> yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children . . . It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.[46]
(Yea, that God himself, ...)Does this sound right or has someone changed the comment?
In an attempt to remove the non-neutrality tag from the article, can anyone and everyone chime in on what issues you feel are not neutral and what needs better or less coverage? If you feel the article is neutral note that as well. Bytebear 05:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the article needs a significant amount of revision to remove jargon. While people who are familiar with the topic may already know what the Godhead is, the casual inquirer isn't going to automatically understand that part. I believe that religions generally attempt to describe God and the relationship between God and man. Accordingly I believe that a note on the nature of God should come before faith in JC. The changes I've made have been scrapped, although the dispensations part has remained. I'd like to see a consensus reached on article order and I recommend the LDS Articles of Faith as the starting point. Article one, quoting from memory, states that the LDS Church believes in God the Eternal Father, Son JC, and the Holy Ghost. Eljamin 17:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Eljamin
I think you should try to research, somewhat, what the books, that the Latter-Day Saints believe in, actually say. There are a few places that have caught my eye, in which vague nouns are given to people that have been identified or have been said to have identified themselves by people in the Pearl of Great Price, namely in Joseph Smith - History, which is a written account by Joseph Smith himself. 24.9.89.152
I'd like to change the heading away from Godhead and to a less jargony title like, "The Nature of God." I would do it myself, but I'm afraid that I'd unlink a lot of things elsewhere in Wikipedia. I don't know much about editing. I also disagree with the factual points made in the Godhead section. Although it is true that the LDS church proclaims that God ("Elohim") is omnipotent, what is meant by that is quite different from what an evangelist Christian means, for example. He would insist that Elohim created everything ex nihilo - out of nothing. A simple reading of D&C 93:29 reveals that the D&C proclaims that Elohim is incapable of creating or destroying intelligence and that man is co-eternal with Elohim. These are blasphemous beliefs according to many Christians. A reading of BH Roberts ( http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=5) also raises a lot of points that fly in the face of the Wikipedia Godhead section. One can argue that BH Roberts is expressing BH Roberts opinion which is not the same as the 12 LDS Apostles officially blessing something as THE TRUTH, and I take that point as somewhat valid, but not enough to enable us to entirely dismiss these writings. I further quote: “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 61). http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Curriculum/aaronic%20priesthood.htm/ap3.htm/17%20the%20holy%20ghost.htm So the omnipresent part needs to be qualified, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eljamin ( talk • contribs)
In the name of trimming down this article, I have removed several paragraphs from the article which I consider too in-depth for an overview article such as this one. The largest removal was the last four paragraphs of "The Godhead" which you can find here. The other removal was the first two paragraphs from the Missionary program section. [16]
Since we are trying to shorten this article, I may have more removals to post later. -- Lethargy 23:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Please be reminded that this webpage was created with one purpose in mind. To discuss the content on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wiki. Comments or arguments that do not contribute to the construction and improvement of this article are not neccesary, and only hinder this wiki's progress. These include arguments on items not discussed in this wiki, such as reasons why the LDS religion is wrong as compared to others, hate messages, unprovoked arguments on undiscussed topics, and messages advocating the LDS religion without an opposing argument. Please keep Wikipedia a constructive and hate-free community. Thanks, 70.65.169.165 21:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I propose merging Animals in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with this article. If it is as important a topic as the people supporting the page on the AfD think it is, then it has every reason to be a bigger part of this article and not just a See also link. Peyna 02:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a link to this article from the Exmormonism article, backed up in the discussion section of Exmormonism. It seems only logical that there should be a link back. greenw47
Hi there. There has to be a neutral way of expressing what is meant by the words "Restorationist Christianity" in the opening paragraph. The current pair of words is non-neutral since it implies that the Latter-day Saint movement is Christian, which is a widely contested understanding. My formulation "Restorationist view of Christianity" was reverted, so I think a better phrase needs to be found. Sincerely, 82.181.198.55 14:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I think your proposal is good. Go for it. Storm Rider (talk) 23:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This conversation is fascinating, even though some of it isn't directly related to the article. I'm not sure if most Christians make any essential difference between "Christianity" and "Historic Christianity" (as groups of people, not as concepts); when viewing Mormons as non-Christians, their reasons are surely based on the Mormon doctrines that differ from those expressed in the patristic and conciliar writings. I could imagine that you believe the same, but we seem to draw different conclusions from that. If I understood you correctly, you stated that they actually think Mormons are Christians but just different Christians. My understanding is that they really do think Mormons are non-Christians and base this view on the mentioned differences. Even if you or I were of the opinion that the differences are not such that would make Mormons non-Christians, it is a non sequitur to therefore conclude that the opinion is generally shared. Or more simply put, when they say "Mormons are not Christians, you know, they don't believe in the Trinity" I would be very hesitant to interpret it as "Ok, Mormons are Christians but they don't believe in the Trinity." More likely, the correct interpretation is "Mormons are not Christians precisely because they don't believe in the Trinity." But again, this is only my understanding of what is generally held.
When conversing in the context of WP, I find the whole concept of "the standard interpretation of the Bible" very difficult. The essence of the question is, what should the encyclopedia say if a group holds a self-understanding that has very little support from outside? At least not bluntly state the Mormon position as a fact. I could say that numbers do matter in the case of an overwhelming majority (this is in the WP instructions, if I remember correctly), but the case is special because the group disagreeing with the others is the one the whole matter is about. Therefore, the article shouldn't state the matter from a non-Mormon position as a fact either. It should only say who thinks what, and I think the opening paragraph is good now. It states the Mormon position, not as an uncontested fact, but as a position. The counterexample about the Roman Catholic Church is not applicable, in my view, because the percentage of people who view Roman Catholics as non-Christians is small.
My understanding of the Protestant (or generally Christian) view of Mormon faith is that they think that one doesn't believe in the same Jesus as they do, the Jesus of Nazareth, if one rejects the understanding of him as the man-God. I agree that it is not self-evident where they should draw the line, but on the other hand, it is understandable that the line is drawn somewhere. If they viewed the Mormon understanding of God as being within the boundaries of Christianity, the next question would be, what about Hindus who feel highly of Jesus and view him as one among millions of gods - are they Christians, too? I also think that most Christians do believe in the possible salvation of non-Christians - for instance, the Roman Catholic position is that they can be saved (by and through Christ) if they are outside the visible boundaries of Christianity without their own fault and if they follow the law written in every heart. This has quite little to do with the article, though.
I think the word "consider" doesn't entail any rejection of what is considered; it simply states it as a position. This is very apparent because the same clause can speak of considerations opposed to each other: "Harry considers the apple tree as his own; Barry, on the other hand, considers that he owns the apple tree." Neither position is either supported or rejected. They're just mentioned, neutrally and accurately. I would of course find it understandable if the article on Harry told Harry's understanding first and vice versa. -- 82.181.198.55 11:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
We are getting a little further afield on this question; let's bring it back to the question as it relates to the LDS church. LDS prefer a 1st century definition of Christian. If one accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God, that he lived, was crucified, made the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and rose the 3rd day and now sits on the right hand of the Father; then one is Christian. This would fit some of the definitions that Trödel has stated above and.
Some Historic Christian churches have added another layer in order to define Christian: not only must you believe in Jesus in the manner stated above, but you must also accept certain additional 4th century beliefs i.e. the Nicene Creed. Those who accept this doctrine are rightly called part of the Historic Christian churches. LDS and others do not share in this genesis and are appropriately identified as such.
Being Christian does not require being part of Historic Christianity, being Christian means one believes in Jesus as the Christ. The problems develops when Historic Christian churches attempt to claim ownership of the term Christian. They are quite capable of saying "you are not part of us" or "you are not part of mainstream Christianity". However, I am loathe to reject any individual's claim they are Christian.
Your example above seems rather extreme. Is one Christian if one simply follows the teachings of Jesus? Many of our Christian brothers and sisters seem to doubt the divinity of Jesus Christ. At times I am thrown to feel that the label of Christian is not merited if one thinks Jesus was simply a good teacher, a bodhisattva, a philospher, or a prophet, etc. I want to make the standard higher; that they must accept him as the Son of God. However, I think when I do that I create possible distinctions where none should be. I think Christian should be an inclusive term. If we are to make distinctions it would have to be in beliefs. Accepting Jesus as the Christ is not the end of a journey, but it is the beginning of one. When then must strive to emulate His example and teachings. It is at the end that we wish to hear, "Well done thou good and faithful servant". Storm Rider (talk) 04:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
"the Latter-day Saint movement is Christian, which is a widely contested understanding."
I'm amazed at how so many who rely so heavily on the words and writings of others claim we Mormons are not Christians. Call me crazy, but my definition of being "Christian" implies that one follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Christ is at the center of this Church. No one has a greater love and reverence for the Savior than do the members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints." It is His Church and in fact is named after Him. The Book of Mormon testifies of Him in numerous ways. It is in fact a second witness that HE lives. This is why we don't use the symbolism of the cross in our buildings. It is because we worship the LIVING Christ and not the one who died on the cross. The Book of Mormon explicitly teaches of Jesus Christ and of His mission here in the Western Hemisphere. It is in His sacred name that we do all that we do, including prayer and the performing of various ordinances. We open and close our meetings in his name. It is in His name that we bless our families and friends. It is in His name that many thousands of our members, young and old, at personal expense and without compensation, embark on missions to spread His message around the world. Their only reward is the joy of bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ into the lives of those we come to know. All that we do is in hope of someday being reunited with Him and once again living in His presence. Spyneyes 02:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that the this LDS article is a good example of the weakeness of Wikipedia as a whole. This article has turned pretty much into an official sanitized description of the LDS faith and not an neutral one. Even the "Criticism and Controversy" section has turned more into a defense of any criticism than an explantion of the crisiticism themselves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.88.121.162 ( talk • contribs) .
I was just looking at the major beliefs section, and it is my prominent belief (get it) that it would be better in a different order. I propose the following order:
I believe that this order is more conducive to the precedence that Church members place on their beliefs, as is evidenced by the order of the missionary lessons (Plan of Salvation second) and discussion during Sunday School, along with sacrament meeting talks. We rarely have a talk on the Godhead's composition during sacrament meeting, but talks on the Plan of Salvation, the Book of Mormon, and each of the 1st principles, are much more prevalent. Likewise, testimonies concerning the nature of the Godhead are rarely borne, but testimonies on the value of faith, the Book of Mormon, and Priesthood power are frequent. The order which I proposed, I feel, is clearly more adequate than the current one to express this. Any objections or agreements? This is a rather major change, so discussion would be nice. -- Pahoran513 17:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
There. I did it. -- Pahoran513 17:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I am proposing that the Animals in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be merged into a yet to be created, and named, article that would cover the following subjects:
The article could pull together some info from the following articles: Holy Spirit#Non-Trinitarian Christian views, Pre-existence#Pre-mortal existence in Mormonism, Godhead (Mormonism), Plan of salvation, First War in Heaven, Animals, etc. Light of Christ could also be merged and redirected to the new article.
This would be a more coherent presentation of the theology and its implications. It would also allow sections on the related topics in the Mormonism articles - or in the non Latter Day Saint movement related articles to be summarized more succinctly while pointing those interested to a full treatment of the information. Comments, thoughts? Help on a name would be especially helpful (see also: Talk:Animals in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#New merge target) -- Trödel 19:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
In the archives there was talk about shortening this article by creating a new article about the Culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I went ahead and created it. However, it is mostly just a copy and paste from this article with a brief introduction added. Please contribute to it. -- Pahoran513 04:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I am suggesting that the above article be merged with the main LDS article. It is little more than a paragraph critical of the church Tithing program and looks more like a blurb on corporate Mormonism than a legitimate article. Bytebear 18:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
That is fine by me, though I wonder where you will add it; we are trying to reduce the size of this article (or at least keep it from growing). But overall the concept is good (but the Financial article will have to be re-written for redundancy). Pahoran513 23:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the suggestion to merge this article with "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", I believe it should not be merged.
My reasoning: a) I feel the article is not written well, or at the very least is incomplete and unbalanced; b) I also feel some readers could regard it as somewhat inflammatory.
Perhaps if there were also articles titled "The Financial Properity of The Roman Catholic Church/Baptist Church/Methodist Church" etc., then this article could well be in order. (Ok, I didn't actually look to see if their were such articles, but I'm guessing there aren't any. Am I right?) -- BigMack 20:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the sentence: "They work full-time for the Church, and those who need it receive a stipend from the Church"
I'm not sure this statement is correct. It's my understanding that church leaders are reimbursed for expenses only, like travel expenses. -- BigMack 20:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I saw the following article in the Des News that discusses membership statistics [1] of scientology. Intereesting that the LDS church gets beat up for having incorrect statistics by Anti-Mormons (in fact, their membership numbers are probably the most accurate according to stark and others), however, when you look at the following statement it is consistent with the southern baptist's definition and american penecostal assn definiation. Seems that catholicism and mormons actually define based on baptism/confirmation stats (and a few others). Hmmm. here's the statement:
In otherwords, if we used that definition, anyone who is a repeat caller to get the latest "family first" video or has visited a family history library more than once, or attended a sacrament meeting, would be considered part of the LDS church. - Visorstuff 18:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 08:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints → The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – Per Wikipedia's guidelines, this needs to be moved. As with The Nature Conservancy, the "The" is part of the name, which they specifically request be used. [2] -- Lethargy 19:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
There are an awful lot of statements in this article beginning with "members believe...". Something about these statements bothers me. Perhaps it is because in order to back up these statements we would need to cite church officials or doctrine, rather than members. Perhaps it would look better with "the Church teaches..."?
Whatever the reason, something about these statements smells a little fishy... or weaselly. Comments? -- Lethargy 02:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The reason "Members believe" is often used is because of "Members" writing the articles. I believe therfore "Members believe" (and they might be right). I very much agree with both of your statements. I do think "Church teaches..." should also have citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Impending ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 26 September 2006
There are situations where members believe, but the Church doesn't teach, so there can be differences. There is a considerable culture that has grown up among members of the church that is often confused with church teachings. For example, the Stake Presidency in my stake believes that priesthood leaders should wear white shirts and ties (as opposed to other colors). There is no church teaching that supports this position, but it is a common belief, just the same. If you look at General Conference, you won't see many non-white shirts, but you also can't find any church teaching that states that only white shirts should be worn. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 13:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Lethargy is right OR maybe you should add the "white shirts" angle to this page and all the other Mormon pages. VERIFICATION seems to be missing from all of these pages. Impending 04:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the History section is causing me trouble. The entire paragraph is what LDS believes is the case, not what is generally accepted. I hate the style of writing where we have to say "according to the LDS" in every sentence, but I can see that there might be confusion. I'm going to try something to make it more explicit. DJ Clayworth 20:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I just did the page move as requested. I checked, and you've got over 1500 links coming in now through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints redirect. I'll bet a bot could fix all of those. There are a few more redirects, though I think I snapped all the doubles. None of them except that big one has more than a hundred incoming links or so, and most have none at all.
Also, I found this page: -Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints-, which is a disambiguation page. Maybe some of those redirects should be pointed at it? I don't know. - GTBacchus( talk) 09:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of entries in this section that have been tagged as needing citations, but more than that some don't even mention why they are controversial, and others contain weasel words. A few of those that have particular problems which cannot be addressed with {{ who}} or {{ fact}} include:
"On June 9, 1978, a new revelation was announced, permitting all "worthy" males to receive the Priesthood."
Lethargy - I'll let you do more tagging if that works for you and revisit later. Keep up the good work. I don't have as much time to edit as I once had.
Sorry if this seems a bit blunt, Kmsiever, but I'm aware of exactly where each of the statements about utah's statehood and polygamy came from. That said, it, like the belief of some that polygamy will be re-instituted during the millenium is a case of mormon folklore. No president of the church, nor apostle has taught this (other general authorities, including BRMcC did in MD, but prior to being an apostle - other leaders disagreed with his assessment, including his father in law and all presidents of the church since that time who said we simply don't know), nor is there evidence to support these ideas were/are true or the motivation behind denouncing polygamy. Was it a factor? Possibly. Just the same as prison terms, disenfranchisement of members (regardeless if they practiced or not), loss of millions of church-owned acreages (which have never been returned) and other confiscation of personal properties, which was given to military and enforcement personell for personal use, as was done in Missouri. That said, there were much more pressing items such as a bill in congress giving death sentences to polygamists, confiscation of church properties and monies and other issues that were much more a factor than statehood by 1890. Please remember, that the confiscation of money and property led to the church's near bankrupsy issues that led President Snow to re-emphasize tithing. To put it blunt, between 1880 and 1890, the church lost millions (in 19th century money, not 20th century equivelents) of dollars due to polygamy. Cash and property and disenfranchisement were much more a motivation than statehood. The belief about statehood came from morgan's reading of smoot's belief that Mormon polygamy could not be prosecuted under the Edmunds and Edmunds-tucker acts as the act was specific to US territories (not states). That said, if utah got statehood, then polygamy couldn't be prosecuted. In any case, please cite a primary document I may have overlooked, rather than secondary sources and opinions of Compton or Morgan. If you have one, it is possible that I overlooked this as a main reason in any of the discussions leading up to the manifesto.
Masamage and Lethargy - hopefully the OD1 quote will help with wording.
Lethargy, I'll take a break while you fix and add in more cites? - Visorstuff 17:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
“ | Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. | ” |
-- Lethargy 17:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Haha. You sound like my boss today - she always reminds me I use "some" "a number of" "various" and similar phrases in my writing too much (and if i didn't write all day, i'd probably do a better job of spelink and CaPiTaliaTION. Point taken. Let me see if I can dig up some better examples for the Islamic criticism and look for word replacements for "some" and "others." I hope to come back to this later today. Good luck with your conjuntivitis - hope you feel better. - Visorstuff 18:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed: "(In a similar way, many times Biblical prophets speak in the first person as though they are the mouthpiece of the Lord<ref>{{lds|Isaiah|isa|53|12}}, {{lds|Isaiah|isa|61|1}}, {{lds|Revelation|rev|1|8}}, {{lds|Revelation|rev|22|16}}</ref>).
This is a particular interpretation of the Bible, presumably specific to the LDS. Firstly and most importantly it needs to be referenced. Secondly, while these prophets do indeed speak in the first person, since they are (claiming to) speak the very words of God, in most interpretations of scripture they don't claim to be omniscient or in any way God. DJ Clayworth 16:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
In the introduction, the second paragraph seems excessively long. Does anyone else agree it should be shortened, and if so, how should it be done? -- Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 21:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The main points should be (and few of them are even in the introduction):
Notice there is little doctrine other than that which pertains to the cration and history of the church. not much if anything about Jesus Christ. That should go into the body of the article under Beliefs->Jesus Christ. Bytebear 21:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought someone was working on a new header paragraph. I am seeing more and more beliefs and explainations being put into it. First it was a huge diatribe on belief in Christ, and now there is a huge paragraph on Faith and Works. I see mainstream Christians need to point out the differences and LDS trying to justify and explain their point of view. Both sides should be presented. They should NOT be presented in the intro section. It's way too long and way too detailed. Look at User:Ginkgo100/WiP02 and let's try to comform to something simpler and more structured. We have a dozen pages on LDS beliefs and practices. We don't need every detail of the faith spelled out in the first paragraph. Bytebear 16:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Some did shorten it, and the Trodel changed it back. Frankly not only is it too long, but it reads like an advertisement, or an evangelistic tract. We wouldn't accept "XYZ corp invites people everywhere to sample their tasty snack food" and we shouldn't accept language like that from a church. DJ Clayworth 17:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there a better temple image out there? The one on the site has some relections of light on the corner which makes it look kinda funny. Bytebear 20:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose to add a section on Family under the Major Beliefs section, or at least add it under Plan of Salvation. One of the major aspects of a Latter-day Saint's faith, as it might be inferred from the recent LDS General Conference, is the family. Yet nowhere in this article do I find a substantial paragraph of information concerning LDS beliefs about family relations. Such a section might include topics such as the Proclamation on the Family, Eternal Marriage, the Church's emphasis on the roles of fathers and mothers, the emphasis on raising children, Family Home Evening, etc. As a backup to my argument, one can find that the sole topic of the LDS Church's Worldwide Leadership Training earlier in 2006 was the Family. Any input/comments? Sylverdin 21:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
This was recently removed entirely for being redundant, and then put back; I'd like to ask that some serious discussion be had before someone considers removing it again. This article gets accused of being +POV all the time, and we need that section if we're to have any hope of seeming balanced. Even if it is a little redundant. -- Masamage 01:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
-- Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 19:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a weasel word tag on the controversy section at the moment. I have changed the following phrase from "Many doctrines and practices of the Church, both past and present, are viewed by many as controversial" to "Certain doctrines and practices of the Church, both past and present, are viewed as being controversial." Reason: what constitutes many and who are the "many" who view these as controversial? If it stays in the original, would it not require a citation? I'm relatively new to this, so tell me if that is right. Sylverdin 14:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the discussion/poll at Wikipedia:Mormon collaboration. To save you a trip to that page, you can vote or comment on it here and it will be counted. Comment as you want, but please only vote if you are able and willing to help with this collaboration.
The tone of this article strikes me as that of a member of the Church, rather than a NPOV and formal tone. It is currently
poorly referenced, uses
weasel words ("members believe", "some say", "many non-members", etc.) and might be
longer than is preferred. I would like to improve this to a point that I can submit it for
peer review without obvious flaws in the article.
(
vote or comment)
Support:
Comments:
There seem to be two things missing from here that I would have thought of as major beliefs. One is the status of Joseph Smith as a prophet. The second is the presence of pre-Columbian Christian civilisations in the Americas. Surely both of these deserve a mention. DJ Clayworth 13:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Trodel, you seem to have attempted to strip the entire criticism section down to one sentence per item. I think that needs some explanation. Why do you think this is a good idea? DJ Clayworth 19:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I think a little more explanation is required than a bald statement of the doctrine. For example the summary of the 'apostasy' section really gives no idea of why it is controversial, and you would have to wade through quite a lot of the article you are directed to in order to find out the details of it. I think you'll have even more trouble if you try to cut the 'Major doctrines' section down in the same way. Let's see what other people think.
Incidentally, I think the 'weasel words' section may be out of date now. Most of the controversies have been tidied up. DJ Clayworth 20:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's get the fuller version back. This article already has enough of the feel of an advert. DJ Clayworth 23:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I see several edits where additions of "Members believe ..." or "The church claims ...". I really think these although well intended do not really balance POV, in that the original statement isn't really NPOV to begin with. For example:
was changed to:
Is it just me or is it overkill to add NPOV statements three times in the same paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bytebear ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 12 October 2006
The problem (as I see it) is that if we state church doctrine and phrase it as if it were facts, that is POV. Indisputed facts can be stated plainly, but beliefs must be labeled as such. Again, IANAL, IMHO, etc. ;^) wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 03:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else see a leetle problem with the criticism that there is a causal relationship between the Law of Tithing and Utah's very high bankruptcy rate? The article cited as authority for the claim mentions Utah's elevated charitable giving and large family size in passing, but spends the bulk of its discussion on the problem of extremely high credit card debt. Is there some authoritative source that can document a causal relationship between the faithful paying of tithing and going bankrupt? It currently says The Law of Tithing is often criticized, except the cited article doesn't criticize it. the relation of tithing to bankruptcy is minimized or ignored in Mormon sources, except there's nothing backing that up, either. If there was no relation of tithing to bankruptcy then it would hardly be surprising that no-one mentioned it, would it? And if there were, perhaps somebody has documented it reliably somewhere. Otherwise I think this passage is somebody's lame attempt to sneak in POV. Mike 08:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I moved the criticism of tithing as related to bankruptcy to the criticism section and removed the POV material, such as However, the relation of tithing to bankruptcy is minimized or ignored in Mormon sources. I don't know what to do about the other parts, since they seem to be more a matter of statistic interest than anything else, but where should it go (if anywhere)? Mike 23:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Can we remove the weasel words "has been criticized" and name specific critics?
"Also, if everything has to positivistically "proven" to be included in this article, then the article is going to get short awfully quick."
That's not necessarily a bad thing ;)
"it is fact to state something like "some scholars and anecdotal evidence suggests there is a correlation between widespread LDS tithing and Utah's high bankruptcy rates""
See
Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words, as well as
Wikipedia:Verifiability, which states:
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research."
Like many other things in this article, this still needs verification. -- Lethargy 04:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't have an issue with the citation, or their coorelation. But I do think it is not really a controversy or even criticsm. The implication is that tithing should be abolished or that church members ae being pushed too hard into giving funds to the church (which is a criticsm but only to those who oppose the church, or organized religion in general). A couple things to consider. First, the church is not going to abolish tithing, and any reputable study would not suggest such a thing. Second, the church has always encouraged its members to be self sufficient and not rely on government intervention including bankruptsy. I think maybe a section on conserns or Church conserns. It is not just a criticsm from outside sources, but a real consern of the leadership within the church. Bytebear 20:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that missionaries are only mentioned twice, both in the Use of church funds section, stating that money is used to support missionary programs. Perhaps we should create a subsection about Mormon missionaries, since the Church has a very active missionary program, and all young men are encouraged to go on one. That being said, I don't know what sources to use to create this section. Where can I find how many missionaries there are and other statistics? -- Lethargy 19:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the Temple section to a main header, as I feel it is important enough to warrent it. There has been a bit of discussion on private talk pages regarding Baptism for the Dead, and it is sorely lacking in this article. I don't want the article to be bloated, but I am thinking categorically that we should include a section under Temples for "Endowment", "Eternal Marriage and Sealings", "Baptism for the Dead", and "Other ordinances". I don't want a lot of details but have See also headings for each section.
An alternative is to move the Temple section under Beliefs, but I don't want to end up throwing everything under Beliefs as a catch all. Bytebear 04:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
After reading some more about this subject I feel that an expanded section on it should be added to the page. I didn't realize how controversal it had become, epecially when it concerns Holocaust victims. Since it is an official policy of the church I feel that it should be included on this page; a separate article seems to lessen the severity of this practice. Duke53 | Talk 17:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I am working on beefing up the History section of the article. I added a good solid paragraph from the Utah article about early settlement, but it lacks citations. It even has a fairly even handed paragraph on Mountain Meadows Masacre, so don't accuse me of pro-LDS POV. I also changed the polygamy section to Plural Marriage. I think the main paragraph should be moved to the Beliefs section however as it is too broad to fit into any one paragraph of history. So PLEASE help make the article better by adding citations and correcting my errors.
And if anyone is reading Rough Stone Rolling, please highlight and annotate it. It's a great resource that we should be citing left and right.
Bytebear 05:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi I've moved the disambig page to -=The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (disambiguation)=- please do not link to it but link all pages to the appropriate article. The origianal Disambig page was the same name as this articl minus the THE and minus the hyphen. It was catching all sorts of links that were supposed to be sent here instead. So i switched it. :) Peace. -- Home Computer 15:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your comments. I understand your concern. The disambiguation page recieved over 100 misapropriated links. That is, OVER 100 links to it that meant to go to the mainpage instead, due to the obvious typos and what not. A real disambiguation page needs to be clearly differeentiated (such as with (disambiguation) after the title (see Bible (disambiguation))) and not generate accidental traffic due to typos as was unfortunately happening. The new disambiguation page is clearly marked as is this mainpage with links to all the others. Peace. -- Home Computer 18:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought, if you'd prefer moving the disambig pate to Latter Day Saint movement(disambig) I'd have no prob with that as it would fit categoriclly but it doesn't share the same titles in it's word for which the disambig was created. -- Home Computer 19:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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An image is repeated (picture of a vitraux).
I replaced the image with that of the Christus Statue. I think a good picture would be of a baptism or of laying on of hands for the obvious sections. Bytebear 22:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Did Smith shoot (and maybe kill) some people the night he himself was killed? I have read a couple articles that say that this is so. Duke53 | Talk 01:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the edits that incorporated this into the rest of the article. This section is a summary of a daughter article and needs to stay. CovenantD 04:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
<unindent>In many ways this article should function as a disambiguation page with summaries. Look through the rest of it and you'll see that most section branch off into their own articles. When a section gets too large, it is spun off into it's own article with a summary of that article here. By removing the Controversies section in this article, it ceases to function as that balanced point of further reading and becomes a footnote instead. CovenantD 00:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to read this link: [18] ^ Anderson, Karl Ricks, Joseph Smith's Kirtland: Eyewitness Accounts,1989 but it leads nowhere. Do I have to find a copy of this book somewhere to verify the cite (and many of the other cites)? Duke53 | Talk 04:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Should this be moved to the Culture section rather than the Beliefs section. Maybe break the section up on doctrinal vs. cultural lines? Thoughts. Bytebear 21:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't feel that the Worship service section adds very much useful information to the article, and for the sake of making the article shorter, and therefore easier to read, I think it should be removed or severely shortened, mentioning just the sacrament and testimony meeting perhaps. Additionally, it is not referenced enough, and is mostly original research and possibly incorrect, for instance "Although all women and girls meet together briefly at the beginning of the hour for a prayer, hymn, and announcements..." this is not done in my stake. -- Lethargy 22:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
For problems with neutrality, original research, lack of references, and stability, I have delisted this from GA standard. If you disagree, you can seek a review at Wikipedia:Good articles/Review. -- Lethargy 23:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
"Part of this 'perceived' threat may have resulted because of a speech given by Sidney Rigdon (and approved by Joseph Smith) on July 4th, 1838 that declared: "And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them until the last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to exterminate us, for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed". [10]"
This has been edited several times (the first time was by me, not sure who did it the other times) but has been reverted with the edit summary "this is an exact copy of the original; do not revert it again or I will report it as vandalism. Editors are not allowed to edit quotes to suit themselves."
The problems with the bold text (as well as the quotes for perceived) are that it advances a POV, and that the actual original does not have the text in bold, that was added by the website which hosts the quote. -- Lethargy 02:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Before putting in POV text like "illegal acts by Mormon members" I would recommend finding a verifiable source. Just a thought. Bytebear 03:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Folks lets calm down. Please read history of the church and comprehensive history of the church as to why the church migrated from ohio to Missouri. It was a planned move since 1832 based on the revelation to build up Zion and for the church to move there. That move was delayed by the revelation to build and finish the temple. The temple was dedicated and the "keys were restored" about the same time (1836-7) the Safety Society was established (as were other anti-banking institutions (see the Kirtland Eyewitness accounts book - easily available from Amazon, if you have any issues finding it at your local LDS/Deseret/Seagull or other bookstore). Smith fled to zion due to threats on his life, but it wasn't until 1838 that he a revelation was receieved that it was time for the rest of the saints to sell land and gather in missouri, which led to the election year and bloc voting issues over slavery that caused the gallatin battle, which led to the extermination order. The land sales were not complete until 1839 about the time that smith was imprisoned in richmond jail due to Boggs' executive order making being mormon an act of treason against the state. Having spend time with the smith papers and reading the actual sources mentioned (most of the sources mentioned can be found at just about any university library) this was a planned migration that was delayed due to the promise of temple blessings that seemed to take place at a convienent time, but was planned for long before. I can see why it is easy for duke and others to come to that conclusion, but from a historian's perspective it was more coincidental than cause and effect - especially when smith didn't direct the migration for some time thereafter. hope this context helps - and to be honest, volumes 1 and 2 of hsitory of the church really are the best sources - especially BH roberts footnotes - which tend to be controversial in many LDS circles (as they are not "faith promoting," but historically sound).
Now, as an admin - some advice. As far as verifiability - I'm confused at this discussion, as it quickly degenerated for absolutely no reason. Duke53 - you appear to be saying not to quote anything that is not online. I know that is not what you mean, but that is how it is coming across. Masamage, please slow down and try to understand what he is saying as far as verifiability. I think that with the current citing system, we can provide the quotes from the books in the footnotes. As far as bolded text, that is from the website you are referring to, not the original text - at least the copy I have. Bytebear, keep up your good work, but be slower to jump to historical conclusions without reading the primary documents. Too many of the editors on these pages try to follow secondary sources which have other's theories instead of looking at the primary documents, which then leads to POV in these articles. All I'm saying is taht the three of you in this dispute not draw historical conclusions where there is either no evidence, or where there is evidence pointing the otehr way. to state as much would qualify as WP:OR - statements such as "I say that the church left because their leader was going to be prosecuted for his criminal behavior (Duke53) and "The church left because either the government forced them to leave, or they were attacked by mobs and had their houses and farms burned" (bytebear) are not only both historically unsound, but are original research and theories promulgated by the uniformed, which neither of you should be with today's reseach technology. - Visorstuff 10:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Duke53, please slow down and actually read what I wrote. I'm not suggesting that we only use the history of the church (and, yes to your other question, much of it and smith's journals was published serially in the times and seasons, etc. by Smith during his life). I am suggesting we use primary documents and quotations from the sources on items rather than someones interpretation of someone elses interpretation of someone else's research on various topics. I'm just as happy quoting from Hurlburt as Roberts.
Yes, I am suggesting that if you need to verify something taht you take the time to do it properly. I am the geek that goes though footnotes in Britannica to read where they get information, and do the same with academic papers and here. Does it take effort? Yes. But if you want good articles, you need to use sources that are not always readily available. Most university libraries have sharing programs and can get copies of the sources listed in this article with very little effort. You should try it sometime.
And if it were that easy to read a source, we really wouldn't need an encylopedia (or wikipedia) to share information. We could just post a link instead of having an article.
Unfortunately there is something called copyright that disallows everything written to be posted on the internet. What I am suggesting is that you, me and everyone else read primary sources, rather than some internet site which would be a tertiary source. The history of the church, while it may be POV, is one such primary source. So would the Warsaw Signal (non-Mormon), Harper's weekly, and more.
I am going to guess you have no academic training, based on your questions "how does Joseph Smith's diary qualify as a source?" There are three type of sources used by historians. Let me break it down:
History of the church is one primary document, as it was published (for the most part) serially during Smith's life by himself. Yet, so are journal entries of Luke Johnson about this time period about persecuting the Mormons, which would corraberate the details I've shared above, but from the opposing side.
If you want to have a watered down version of the article without details and primary sources that are truly verifiablle, the article would read something to the effect that someone claiming to be the church has a web site at LDS.org. Everything else could be doctored as you say.
Based on your statement: "My idea of a verifiable source is one that I can show to anyone who questions a statement that I may add to an article" How do you suggest we prove that the document or book says what we say it does? - Visorstuff 21:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm 'guessing' that the plan to ignore me has spread from more than just
Bytebear and
Masamage so I will just continue as if people were truly willing to make the article as truthful as possible.
The reason I asked if Smith's diaries were published unedited (by him) was this little item I found while researching:
"The nineteenth-century propaganda mill was so adroit that few outside Brigham Young's inner circle were aware of the behind-the-scenes alterations so seamlessly stitched into church history. Charles Wesley Wandell, an assistant church historian, was aghast at these emendations. Commenting on the many changes made in the historical work as it was being serialized in the Deseret News, Wandell noted in his diary:
I notice the interpolations because having been employed in the Historian's office at Nauvoo by Doctor Richards, and employed, too, in 1845, in compiling this very autobiography, I know that after Joseph's death his memoir was 'doctored' to suit the new order of things, and this, too, by the direct order of Brigham Young to Doctor Richards and systematically by Richards. The Quorum of the Twelve, under Young's leadership, began altering the historical record shortly after Smith's death. Contrary to the introduction's claim, Smith did not author the History of the Church". [14]
If there is doubt about the truthfulness of the actual author of the History of the Church then perhaps there could be doubts about its contents is all I'm saying. Duke53 | Talk 05:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
A little higher up in this section wrp103 (Bill Pringle) commented:
Since I had heard rather the opposite about availability of historical records at some point, I went searching and found a post at Times and Seasons (yes, yes, a blog written by Mormons). In cogent point, the writer (who is evidently a profession researcher) states:
So much for official unavailability of historical documents. Mike 03:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not involved in this debate or in editing the article, but I would like to respond to Duke53's challenge of Smith's edited diaries as a valid source. The answer is yes it is. It is a POV source, which is good. Go back and read WP:NPOV, and notice that it does not say not to represent points of view, but to represent them equally. This means sourcing POV material, in the interest of creating an article that represents all points of view, even those an editor may find distasteful.
Aside from this, please assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. -- INTRIGUEBLUE ( talk| contribs) 01:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Just thought I'd point out: Since it was a *speech* given by Rigdon, the word "extermination" was neither bold nor non-bold in the original. It was spoken. Novel-Technology 16:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there are a number of individuals with very strong ideas concerning the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While having strong ideas is a good thing, it is also neccessary to share those ideas and feelings with respect. And we can't simply wait for the other person or persons to be respectful first. We have to begin it ourselves. Just a little reminder to remember that respect is essential in our conversations (EVEN if we don't agree with the other user). Have a great day (or night, whatever time zone you're in!) Sylverdin 19:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Duke53, I'm not sure why you have so much anomosity toward us - and me in particular. I've not contradicted you or any of your edits, only tried to share context and guide the discussion. Frankly I'm suprised at your reactions.
That said, you obviosuly believe in some aspects of Mormon (or exmormon or AntiMormon) folklore. Let me take each of your comments one by one.
First a definition. An autograph is something that is penned directly by someone. It is the ultimate of primary documents. An autograph is something like a journal or the original book of mormon manuscript in the handwriting of oliver cowdery. He later made a copy which is called the printers manuscript, which would not be called an autograph, as it is a copy. Hope this makes sense, as I'll use the term below.
Yes, portions of Smith's diary (uncut) were published under his direction during his life (please see a copy of early church publications - which contained even his now-controversial "egyptian alphabet work." Many more has been published as "the Papers of Joseph Smith" and "the Words of Joseph Smith" and "Personal Writings of Joseph Smith"- you can do an amazon.com search for Dean Jesse and other authors. Pretty much everything he has ever written is now published and available in autograph (scanned) format, and has been verifed by both mormon and non-Mormon historians as authentic. However, after the Saints came to utah, they republished the history of the church into seven volumes. Some items were changed to meet historical accuracy, to downplay some events (due to the political climate of the 1870s-1890s) and other items. If people want to read the original, you can still purchase originals of times and seasons and millenial star or even get scanned copies from multiple sources. I for one, have purchased them (I buy some rare Mormon books and other documents). Even in the preface of the history of the church volume 1, it says that many items were changed, and in some cases, footnotes describe why they were changed (in some cases they don't). It was never a big secret. Just like changes in the book of Mormon were discussed at length in the Ensign when they came out with the new version. The changes are the most accurate to autograph copies (not printer copies) of the transcribed Book of mormon manuscript.
The idea of a closed archives is a myth. I've never met a historian that has gone to the church archives that has made this claim and meant it, aside from the tanners. In fact, see a recent discussion of this myth at [15] by a well-respected historian. I've also spent time at the church historical office and church archives. You obviously have not, or you would not make such a claim. No you can't check out items, but you can transcribe whatever you want, and make copies of most other items. When you go in, everything is available except loose uncatalogued items and minutes from meetings of the following: the first presidency, the quorum of 12, the presiding bishopric, and the council of fifty (unless they have been supeoned during a court case. Also, specific revelations, such as the revelation discontinuing polygamy, the John taylor revelation on the priesthood are typically not made available to the casual researcher. Once something has been catalogued, it is made available to everyone. You just have to request it. Now, as for the "secrecy" of these minutes, I know of no CEO/CFO/lawyer minutes that any corporation lets go public. Each of these groups discuss financial matters, legal issue and other information that most corprations don't release eaither. Remember the Church is a non-profit corporation, and as such follows standard corporate procedures. This is yet one. The myth was created by two sources. Arrington and the Tanners. Arrington was the church historian, and tanners were an anti-Mormon group. Arrington's issue was that in teh 1970s, one could go through shoeboxes of letters prior to them being catalogued, and that you could see envelopes, and other historical items that to most would seem insignificant, but to ahistorian gives even more insight into the writer. That was done away with new catalogue systems - now a researcher must think to request a copy of the envelope, not jsut the letter. As for the tanners, It's easy to say something is not made avaialbe and that the church is "secretive" on items that way you don't have to prove what you are saying. Most of the stuff they wanted were either revelations or minutes of the above listed meetings.
That was in a speech given to seminary teachers of high school students. Of course they wouldn't share "everything" with a 15-year old. Who would? Your high school teacher probably didn't discuss why some believe gravity is a theory not a law, or what problems there are with evolutionary theory, or why geometric math makes 1+1 more than 2. Rather you learned gravity works, evolution is observable and 1+1=2. Are those wrong? No. But they don't paint a complete picture. In teh LDS church personal study is encouraged on the deeper topics, but not to teach to high schoolers.
See comments above about why things were changed in response to the first question.
There are doubts about every historical event. That is the nature of history. Again, had you had formal historical training, you'd know many of these details. Most of Smith's journals were actually written (under his direction and then approved) by his personal secretaries that were with him at the time of the events recorded. Like presidents of the United States, journals are recorded by diction or by staffers. No difference.
John spent no time at the church historical office doing any research for his book. He simply doesn't know. I rather think that what we have is a much more accurate picture of what happened. For instance: you have three peices of historical evidence. one journal entry says that on a a certain day smith said that he believed that men lived on the moon. Two other journal entries from that day by others say that he was in another town giving a speech about slavery. So, could he have made such a statement? Which do you believe? Answer: none of them - you throw out the incident, as there is no additional evidence to prove that smith was in either location. However, if you found a boat ticket, or other evidence showing smith was in one place at that time, then you can solidify which event took place. Does the church quote from either source in this instance? no. But a historian may quote from both.
Back to your original concern, there is enough evidence for many of the items in the article. I'm fine with including or un-including information that is or isn't accurate, but we have to be careful to include enough to help the reader understand context. In the instance above, we may include both sources on wikipedia, but let the reader decide. If you have some other primary evidence that seeminly discounts what is here, please add it in and let the reader decide what they think. No need to un-include something just because we think the source is POV. Every source has a POV, as we all see things through our own eyes. See Wikipedia:Verifiability.
Hope this helps, as you seem to have bought into a lot of folklore and half-truths that are promulgated by the uninformed (I do not think maliciously). Most claims and "groundbreaking findings" made by the exmormon community were discussed at length in the Ensign or Church news and are of no suprise to church members who read them - from changes in the book of Mormon to the Salamander letter. And you can verify what I'm saying on your next trip to SLC to the historical office. East wing of church office building, past the metal detectors and security guard. Why don't you find out for yourself by making a bit of sacrifice instead of being blindly obedience to those who say they know, but really don't?
I hope you are not offended as none is intended, but it does seem that you've obviously already made up your mind about this and have confirmation bias, which is fine. All i'm asking is that you spend time and effort checking sources for yourself, rather than trusting the internet. - Visorstuff 22:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Not quite sure what your question is, as it has nothing to do with what I wrote. I will answer, but please stay on topic, as you seem to be just wanting to argue rather than examine what is written. If I remember right the topic is integrity of sources.
If the book of mormon was translated today, it would undoubtedly use different word choices as vocabulary has changed. Even Joseph Smith and Brigham Young stated this. So are you saying we should have kept publishing errors in the Book of Mormon that are not what SMith gave in his dictation?
There are four different accounts of the process of translating - Whitmer's is only one. Harris claimed Smith used "spectacles" that were "the" urim and thummin. David Whitmers claimed he looked at a seer stone in a hat. His Brother said he would wear a breastplate and urim and thummim, and Cowdery said a seer stone, urim and thummim and after the priesthood was restored, he used no device to aid in translation. (I didn't include family member accounts, such as his wife and brother). None of the accounts contradict each other, but rather corraberate. Remember, Urim and Thummim is the process of using a device for getting divine answers. See Urim and Thummim. So whether or not smith used a breastplate with clear stones, a spectacle, a hat, one of two odd stones, himself or a palm pilot to translate is irrelevant, as the word usage the Smith used urim and thummim to translate would be correct in each case. Some just choose to interpret as a pair of glasses, including Brigham Young and yourself, niether of whom would know as you both weren't there.
The recent changes to the Book of Mormon, as stated in the book of Mormon introduction and the ensign magazine, which published the changes, is to bring the current text back in line with the original penned by Cowdery as dictated by Smith. When something is transcribed by a printer (especially with lead type) mistakes happen, such as an entire paragraph missing in Alma 32 that has been missing from every book of mormon prior to 1981, when the error was corrected after the church purchased that section of the original manuscript. Or "White and Delightsome" to "Pure and delightsome" as in the original text (and which was edited back to the original by Smith in the 1838 edition, but reverted to "white" in the 1842 edition. Simply put, no one knew these items were wrong until the originals were found and studies, as the printer's manuscript had some errors as well. Remember, (I'm sure you've read this in your study of the Book of Mormon) that Cowdery made two copies of what he wrote from Smith's mouth - the second had some transcription errors, just as hand-written bibles from the middle ages often do. That's what happens when you copy 600 pages by hand. Therefore, changes back to the original or what Smith edited (as he was the translator) should be allowed. It makes the text more accurate to the original and gives the book more integrity. However, no one seems to point out that part, they just claim that changes were made. I've actually gone through and made comparisons to versions myself I have an 1830 copy, and many other early utah period books of mormon that I've compared. Have you?
Please remember, Wikipedia is not a place for Apologetics - either pro or con. (if you don't know, apologetics is the systematic defense of a position - which you are engaged in and encouraging other mormon editors to engage in your and their respective positions). You and they are not here to convince each other of the wrongfulness or correctness of your respecive views or to prove a point. We are here to share sources and ideas and let the reader decide. If you have soruces, add them. If not, Wikipedia is not a forum to argue. If you want to do that, I'd recommend a Mormon or exmormon bullitin board or Yahoo Group. - Visorstuff 23:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, you haven't read what I wrote. How is whitmer's account wrong? How is cowdery's accoutn wrong? how is the HOC account wrong? They are consistent.
I'm not slamming your 'lack of education,' however, your responses lead me to asnwer you in this way, as you wouldn't respond how you do if you had that understanding - or if you read what is written.
I have handled multiple 1830 books of mormon. My replica is accurate to the original. I'm still not sure your point. - Visorstuff 00:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I do wish however, that you'd actually do some real research rather than taking someone else's internet site as fact. Of course holding a letter penned by Smith himself doesn't seem to satisfy as much as a the "accuracy" of some Geocities site to some. For example, there are multiple errors in transcription with the whitmer quote from the original pamphlet. Your quotation has been modernized. - Visorstuff 00:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm dizzy from your logic. You believe what you read on the internet, but you don't believe the original documents. Confirmation bias? Yes. Its always a conspiracy isn't it? This is a completely asinine conversation, as you only want to argue.
You asked two questions which I will answer.
1. "why are you so sure it's 'accurate' to the original?"
Cause I've actually spent time looking at both the original published versions, the text written by cowdery, the printers manuscript and my current edition (and others). As a historian, i'm positive that the documents i examined were what they were. This is what I do.
2. "... why not just use the 'original' always"
That's what we'd like to do here - but you have a problem with sourcing them as they are not on the internet. plus...
If the original you speak of is the manuscript written by cowdery: Its hard to pass around a 175+ year old handwritten piece of paper to everyone who wants to read the original text written by oliver for everyone who wants to read the book of mormon. There were no Xerox machines back then.
If its the printers manuscript - there were errors made when it was copied by hand from the original. Its close - and what was used in some versions.
If its the first edition, why use a copy that has ink smears from the printing process and misspellings from a printer who liked to spell words differently than Cowdery, and kept errors from the printers manuscript while the original was kept safe. and at times the printer accidentally left out entire paragraphs? He was human too.
Even the tanners discussed the changes in some of their work. They pointed out why the text changed in some cases, and they pointed out the doctrinal ramifications (albeit small in my opinion) that they made.
If you need to discuss further, please move this to my talk page, as we are completely off topic at this point. A question to start off for there - why do you think changes have been made? Maybe all of us are lying about that too? The church said they were going to make changes and discussed the changes before they were made in church publications - but since you don't believe anything they say, perhaps there aren't changes then? So then this discussion is moot and done.
Historical research takes effort. You apparently don't want to give effort. - Visorstuff 03:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This article is getting ridiculously long. As of now, it's 181 kB, which is twice as long as the article for the Roman Catholic Church, which has a history about five times as long, and 100 times the membership. The problem is, everyone thinks this page has to be everything to everybody, and we end up duplicating work that goes on in other pages. Much of this article is about church history, which is extensively covered in several other articles, including History of the Latter Day Saint movement and History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Another problem is that the article goes into too much detail on the various doctrinal issues, which are explained ad nauseum on other pages. There is no need to repeat everything here. There are too many other issues that should be discussed on this page to fill it up with duplicate historical or theological information. Considering interest in this article, it should have obtained featured status long ago. This article should essentially be a summary article—an introduction to meatier articles elsewhere. Is anybody interested in helping with the pruning? COGDEN 00:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Good work, however, i'm struggling a bit between Service of Worship (Mormonism) and Sacrament meeting. I think there is also a sunday school page. Is there too much overlap there. Also shouldn't it be Worship services (Latter-day Saint)? Wording is a bit clunky to me. But like the result/how it turned out in general. Thoughts? - Visorstuff 03:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Bytebear - I completely agree with you - you are onto something - lets merge where it makes sense. I actually think that Latter-day Saint worship services would be the ideal name, after having thought about it, and have it be more of a quick overview and disabiguation page that points to articles on Sunday School, Sacrament Meeting, General Conference, primary, stake conference and other articles.
COGDEN, what do you think about the (Latter-day Saint) appendage to articles for naming conventions. I see you've revisited the Latter Day Saint and Mormonism naming conventions lately - is it time to make some better changes to the conventions? - Visorstuff 16:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I merged two smaller sections (Unique Authority and Calling of the Prophet) under beliefs and placed them in Leadership and Priesthood. They were only a paragraph in length and much of the info already seemed to be stated in the other section. If someone can read it and see if there is still redundancy, that would be great!!! Thanks! Sylverdin 17:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I changed the article Service of worship (Mormonism) to Latter-day Saint worship services, but I still wonder if this should be the correct usage. What about these conventions ( I use Priesthood as an example with info from the naming convention guide):
Articles about the religion, doctrines, belief systems, and cultures of the Latter Day Saint movement, and that could apply to more than one Latter Day Saint denomination, should use the word "Mormonism".
Articles about only one Latter Day Saint denomination should use the full name of the denomination as it exists on the denomination's Wikipedia page.
So which should we use?
I am leaning toward the second as we can add info for other denominations somewhere in the article and "Services of worship" sounds too hoity toity. Bytebear 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Here are my suggestions for areas that can be summarized These are my opinions, so please give constructive feedback:
Bytebear 23:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Before I do any trimming on the article, I wanted to get some input. I think the first principles and ordinances section is too long and can be reduced to a single segment. I also like "The nature of God" as a title rather than "The Godhead". It just seems to be more understandable to the causual reader. The Plan of Salvation also seems a bit bloated. Maybe a section called "The nature of man" instead?
Bytebear
22:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the tags at the top of the article are not useful in identifying what sections/areas need improvement. For example, the intro has no weasel words that I can find and some sections have no neutrality problems - we should move tags to those sections that need the specific help.
-- Lethargy 19:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, is the largest denomination within the
Latter Day Saint movement, Its adherents describe itwhich describes itself as the
restoration of the original
1st century
Christian church and. Adherents view themselves as
Christians, though not part of the
Catholic,
Orthodox, or
Protestant traditions."
"The church teaches that
Jesus Christ appeared with
God the Father to
Joseph Smith, Jr. and
called him to be a prophet and to re-organize the original church established by Jesus Christ through a
restoration ofrestore elements that had been missing from
Christianity since the
Great Apostasy. This restoration> included the return of
priesthood authority, new
sacred texts, and the calling of
twelve apostles. Like other
Latter Day Saint denominations, the church claims succession tofrom the
Church of Christ founded by Smith in
April 6
1830, following his translation of the
Book of Mormon from which adherents—also called
Latter-day Saints—get their nickname Mormons."
"Smith led the church until his violent
death in 1844. After a period of confusion where the church was led by the
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and various
claims of succession were made,
Brigham Young led a group of
Mormon pioneers away from the former church headquarters in
Nauvoo, Illinois and eventually enteredto the
Salt Lake Valley of
Utah in July
1847. Young was ordained
President of the church in December 1847, and the group following him became The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The church is Now an international organization, the church has its world headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah remains the world church headquarters, where Gordon B. Hinckley serves as its fifteenth President. In 2005 the church reported a worldwide enrolled membership of over 12.5 million[2], although many of those members no longer affiliate with the organization.
Converts from areas where polygamy is an accepted practice typically must end such relationships.
This is probably a pretty rare thing, which explains why I have never heard this before. I would assume that this policy applies to those practicing polygamy where it is illegal as well, and I'm not sure if "typically" is accurate or not. Can we find a source which verifies this? -- Lethargy 02:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the image was deleted. Was there a source statement for that image? It looks like a bunch of non-sourced images were deleted recently.
Also, I noticed a red category on requested images. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 23:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
If you read The Godhead, 3rd paragraph, Joseph Smith comment is:
These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; --> yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children . . . It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.[46]
(Yea, that God himself, ...)Does this sound right or has someone changed the comment?
In an attempt to remove the non-neutrality tag from the article, can anyone and everyone chime in on what issues you feel are not neutral and what needs better or less coverage? If you feel the article is neutral note that as well. Bytebear 05:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the article needs a significant amount of revision to remove jargon. While people who are familiar with the topic may already know what the Godhead is, the casual inquirer isn't going to automatically understand that part. I believe that religions generally attempt to describe God and the relationship between God and man. Accordingly I believe that a note on the nature of God should come before faith in JC. The changes I've made have been scrapped, although the dispensations part has remained. I'd like to see a consensus reached on article order and I recommend the LDS Articles of Faith as the starting point. Article one, quoting from memory, states that the LDS Church believes in God the Eternal Father, Son JC, and the Holy Ghost. Eljamin 17:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Eljamin
I think you should try to research, somewhat, what the books, that the Latter-Day Saints believe in, actually say. There are a few places that have caught my eye, in which vague nouns are given to people that have been identified or have been said to have identified themselves by people in the Pearl of Great Price, namely in Joseph Smith - History, which is a written account by Joseph Smith himself. 24.9.89.152
I'd like to change the heading away from Godhead and to a less jargony title like, "The Nature of God." I would do it myself, but I'm afraid that I'd unlink a lot of things elsewhere in Wikipedia. I don't know much about editing. I also disagree with the factual points made in the Godhead section. Although it is true that the LDS church proclaims that God ("Elohim") is omnipotent, what is meant by that is quite different from what an evangelist Christian means, for example. He would insist that Elohim created everything ex nihilo - out of nothing. A simple reading of D&C 93:29 reveals that the D&C proclaims that Elohim is incapable of creating or destroying intelligence and that man is co-eternal with Elohim. These are blasphemous beliefs according to many Christians. A reading of BH Roberts ( http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=5) also raises a lot of points that fly in the face of the Wikipedia Godhead section. One can argue that BH Roberts is expressing BH Roberts opinion which is not the same as the 12 LDS Apostles officially blessing something as THE TRUTH, and I take that point as somewhat valid, but not enough to enable us to entirely dismiss these writings. I further quote: “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 61). http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Curriculum/aaronic%20priesthood.htm/ap3.htm/17%20the%20holy%20ghost.htm So the omnipresent part needs to be qualified, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eljamin ( talk • contribs)
In the name of trimming down this article, I have removed several paragraphs from the article which I consider too in-depth for an overview article such as this one. The largest removal was the last four paragraphs of "The Godhead" which you can find here. The other removal was the first two paragraphs from the Missionary program section. [16]
Since we are trying to shorten this article, I may have more removals to post later. -- Lethargy 23:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
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