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As Skeleton says, we can suppose all readers are going to move past the infobox and start reading the article. I have concerns about that too though. The early part of the article mentions only the succession crisis after Joseph Smith's death and this church's claim of succession through Sidney Rigdon. However, you have to read through much more of the article before you gain any hint that there was what was apparently a second succession crisis as Rigdon's church disintigrated, and Bickerton emerged to lay claim to be carrying on where Rigdon had fallen away. Not much info if there were any other significant competing claimants in that succession.
And further, you have to get most of the way down before you find out that there was what seems an awful lot like a third succession crisis, when Bickerton goes out west, and then there are simultaneous church presidents in the East and West, though this is all presented in what seems like a euphemistic style... "During this later time period, the First Presidency appears to have taken on a lesser role within the church...", and William Cadman enjoys strategic passive verbs on his way to finding himself "the president of the whole church" opposite a guy who had just been ordained to that position by Bickerton... with the only reference being to the victor who wrote the history, a book by Cadman himself!
I mean no offense to anyone who has faith in God having successively called Bickerton and Cadman to be His spokesman on Earth. But for purposes of objective history, this article is in serious need of some referenced sources independent of the apparently competing claimants within the church. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 00:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Your lack of understanding between WH Cadman and W Cadman is almost as great as your lack of understanding of this organization. 128.118.148.63 00:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to just say 1) College student - please tone it down. It is uncalled for. 2) If anybody would like to research and cite information to this page you are welcome, but lets cut the credibility questions and lack of faith in general of this organization. This groups history book is perfectly valid as are the rest of their sources. Tagging would be uncalled for completely, but researching is welcome. This is speculation from wiki editors against an organization and I also believe that to be uncalled for. Jcg5029 01:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
1) There is a cited second edition - not written by one man 2) If you feel this article needs more sources you are welcome to add them, however, your disbelief on their published records does not constitute a need for a tag. Tags are for article without citations or with incorrect citations. Find something besides speculation before adding a tag. Jcg5029 01:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
As we discussed, the LDS church articles have lots of sources from within and from outside the church. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 02:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
My bad on the style arguement. It was just to bring up a point. CSG 02:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CSG091006 ( talk • contribs)
Hey, guys, I think researching is great, but a tag is not needed -- until a consensus is reached on applying a tag do not apply it again. 146.186.44.179 11:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Folks, rather than going back into the discussion, I'll give my two cents here, but I beleive the way is clear to move forward. I'm not sure why there is so much discussion on this on when it seems clear cut.
We have a few precedences. When we outlined Mormon-ish naming conventions and the style guide on the Wiki in the early days of Wikipedia we decided to use the academic terminology as much as possible. That is why we use the term Latter Day Saint in so many cases rather than Mormon, etc. The academic term used is Bickertonite, I believe (Rigdonites are considered a defunt group by Mormon scholars, aren't they?). The second presedence is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite). We should adopt the same here. I realize that both the Strangite and Bickertonite appellations may be offensive (as is Mormon to LDS), but we are treating these from both an academic and historical perspective, and the page should reflect this. Therefore, I would suggest (The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite). I would then emphasize that the statetment in the lead paragraph that this appelation is not sanctioned by the church - similar to another presedence at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints where it states "widely known as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church." You'll aslo notice that Commmunity of Christ is also included in some (Mormonism) articles although they do not like it, but it must be from a historical and segmentation view point. That is the job of us historians - to lump them together in groups, even if there are a couple of exeptions here and there.
To be honest, the presedence on Wikipedia is clear, and this should be in line with LDS manual of Style and naming convention documents. I also know this is controversial, but it is the most NPOV thing to do - we follow academic norms. none of the above suggestions are academic, or sourced, so do not pass WP:Verify. We cannot make up our own term, but must use an existing one - and we should stick with the academic name. Thank the non-Mormon scholar Jan Shipps for this, as it is a wise course of action. Hope this helps. - Visorstuff 00:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't propose it, Visorstuff did. Maybe you didn't get that as you found it difficult to understand. I point out that a lot of name changes have occurred here without consensus, so I don't think any name for the article has a valid claim to one chosen "by consensus". I understand you are opposed to the name change because the one I mentioned offends you or members of the church, but that's typically not a good reason to avoid the name. There's probably a lot of stuff on WP that offends a lot of people, but it doesn't stop things from going forward. This being said, the name change has not been formally proposed yet. We are merely discussing the possibility of so proposing. When proposed, you'll have ample opportunity to present your view. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 01:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
(P.S. To Visorstuff's comment "(Rigdonites are considered a defunt group by Mormon scholars, aren't they?)", it seems they are indeed as a factual matter, since Bickerton started up his group with a substantial break in continuity in time and place after the disintigration of Rigdon's group, while Bickerton laid claim to continuity through the Rigdonite group. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 01:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that's a fantastic decision. We can finally get some consistency throughout WP by avoiding the use of articles on the names of organizations. This just creates all the more reason to have the name of this church include a disambiguation -Bickertonite, since there are many "Church of Jesus Christ"s out there. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what "the organization" uses when seemingly everyone else in the academic world does otherwise. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
That's simply not convincing when it's in wide usage by neutral academics. There is no consensus among them that it is "offensive", and I have yet to see a neutral source (or any source, for that matter) state that it is an offensive term. It's no more offensive than "Mormon" when applied to the Mormon Church, or "Josephite" to describe the Community of Christ, or Hedrickite for the Church of Christ (Temple Lot). If you are personally offended by the term, that's your prerogative, but we're not going to stop using it or suggesting its use as a term of disambiguation when it is in such wide usage with the neutral sources that do exist. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm unsure about some of your statements; for example, it conceivable that the guidelines could change for one denomination but not all others. There's no a priori reason a rule or standard cannot differ between denominations. But anyway, it's clear we see things differently. When the proposal to change is made, everyone will have their chance to have a say. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 06:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
When this issue came up last year, my main point was that The Church of Jesus Christ is the organization's official name, as well as the name it calls itself. Thus, under the guidelines of
Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Proper nouns, that weighs two to one in favor of keeping the article entitled
The Church of Jesus Christ.
Wikipedia:Disambiguation is also arguably implicated, because there are a couple of other entities that use that name. However, those entities (I think it was a church building in some former Soviet country and some sort of obscure internet church in the Deep South) aren't notable, and don't have their own pages. Thus, there's really no need to disambiguate. As to the thought that sometimes the LDS Church is called by that name, that's not a problem, because the LDS Church already has its own name,
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and there's no need to disambiguate. There's also no need for a "(Bickertonite)" parenthetical when there is no other article titled "The Church of Jesus Christ" (yet, at least).
COGDEN 18:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
As a side issue——why is it that these editors keep popping out of the woodwork on this page to make comments. They haven't made any edits since May, and then when discussions pick up here, they are suddenly keen to register their vote. ... Hmmm. Assuming good faith—Assuming good faith. But it is kind of funny. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
What do you want to know? I edited as an anon for a few months until I realized I had no credibility until I registered. So I did. Now I'm registered, and I continue to edit on a variety of articles. Not just this one when the talk page kicks up. Anything else? Now it's your turn. :) Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I was being civil. I just thought it was funny. If your lack of editing variety is a sore spot with you, I apologize. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Being civil means not accusing. Rich Uncle feel free to assume good faith. 146.186.44.179 11:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to gather some material from new sources, to move beyond theoretically discussing the possibility of gathering new material. It's worth noting the first Google hit on William Bickerton is to the Government of Ontario's religioustolerance.org website, under the heading... "The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)". It starts by explaining the need for the naming convention: "There are at least 20 different religious bodies in the U.S. which have adopted the name: 'The Church of Jesus Christ.'" It also includes several sources - including Cadman '45, and some apparently non-ingroup sources.
I also, on Google Scholar, found a PhD thesis on "The Mormons" from 2002, from an Italian university, in Italian... we'll come up with better sources as we keep looking. But it's worth noting this PhD student introduces us to some heterodox takes on the info so far presented in this article, in a few paragraphs on "The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)". Pardon my Translator - as I said, we'll find more sources, I am just starting - but it's worth contrasting what our Italian friend reports (emphases and interjections added):
Like I said, more information needed. This is from just one (poorly machine-translated) PhD thesis, but if anything it reconfirms the need for more, independent sources. Working; - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 02:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
More sources:
More on the way. Working... - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 03:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Another useful-looking source found:
- Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 02:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
TO CONSIDER: In your research you may find slightly smaller numbers on TJOJC's membership. I would accept the numbers as they currently stand because recently the church has boomed in some foreign areas like Africa. I would doubt any historical source would literally be that up to date, but the records are accurate. Sound good? Jcg5029 04:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The February 9, 1927 New York Times has an article entitled "Miners Pick Wage Board", about a miners' union having selected a committee to meet with the mining companies to negotiate wages, and one of the people selected for the committee is a William Cadman from Pennsylvania. Any idea if "our" William Cadman from Pennsylvania would have been a coal miner and labor union activist? (This would obviously be William Cadman Jr., i.e. William H. Cadman, not the dad, if it is the same guy at all.) - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 19:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I love the sources you guys are comming up with but I removed the tag. Until a consensus is reached do not apply the tag again. Your friend, 146.186.44.179 11:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It is simply an objective fact that almost all the sourced material on this page is from sources within the church - for example, the first 8 listed references include six in-church sources used for 23 citations.
Beyond that, there are pretty clear indications, as covered above, that additional, highly relevant facts are known that are not adequately covered by the current article - so this is not just a matter of picking out a few independent sources to confirm what is already there.
This is just a tag for more sources. It is needed. It does not mean we won't consider whatever other sources and information we come up with with due care. Finding more factual information should not be a source of controversy. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 15:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with all the concerns you express here, Jcg5029, except for the need for sources to be "recent" - primary sources may be old, yet deemed credible and valuable after careful evaluation, and indeed may be more valuable than only relying on recent sources to document long-past events. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 02:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
OKAY, over the past few weeks a few sources have been added. No information has come from these other sources to dispute the History of The Church of Jesus Christ and their other published documents. Because they have stood up to the test, I believe it is time to remove the tag with continued emphasis on further sources and added information. I would consider the History section right now verified (although not complete). 146.186.44.182 14:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Archive 1 of this talk page is currently red-linked. Is this intentionality or an oversight? -- 159.182.1.4 00:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Following from the discussion above under the section heading "Article name", it turns out TCOJC filed a federal trademark application in April of this year and got a first Office action last month from the Patent & Trademark Office, denying their application, in part for likelihood of confusion with prior registered marks of the LDS church. This isn't determinative of the issues related to disambiguation in Wikipedia, nor is it even a final resolution of the trademark application, but it does have probative value for the discussion here. So, I've reprinted a relevant section of the Office action below. (Note, no copyright applies to this Office action because it is a government-produced work.) (This can be looked up under the trademark application number 77159757.) Note that the trademark examining attorney also refuses to register the mark under the grounds that it is merely descriptive - which is relevant to the common usage of the term "the church of Jesus Christ" in a generic sense to refer to the unitary church in the time of the New Testament or to Christian churches in general. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 19:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is one example of what I see as the need for more objective sources for this article. By the article's own text as currently written, there's no indication that Bickerton ever acknowledged that Cadman should be his successor - in fact, it indicates that Bickerton ordained a different fellow to succeed him. But there is also no indication that this might be an issue subject to questioning. Instead, it seems to indicate that Cadman became the next church president through little more than Bickerton's absence and the magic of passive verbs. The justification provided includes indicating that the First Presidency (led by Bickerton) "appears to have taken on a lesser role within the church" while the Quorum of the Twelve (led by Cadman) became more important - though this seems to run precisely counter to the argument on which this church's original succession is based, i.e. that the only authoritative succession was through the First Presidency (in the form of its First Counselor, Rigdon), and not through the Quorum of the Twelve (i.e. Brigham Young and his supporters). This logically suggests itself as a potential controversy, but is entirely glossed over as the article is currently written. It's easy to see how, if the current church traces its authority through William Cadman, it might not want to emphasize facts that don't tend to support a clear succession of Cadman. But what happened to Bickerton and his group in St. John, Kansas? One of my sources I found recently says the COJC also founded a second colony in Comanche County, Kansas, 75 miles south of St. John, in 1909, that it was led first by Charles Tickhill and then by an A. B. Cadman, and that it disintigrated in 1928 after a string of disagreements and misfortunes. Where is that information, and how does it fit in? It's things like that I'd like to see better explained, and that are going to need out-of-church sources to do so. The article in its current state describes the COJC's history with an air of apologetics, of glossing over facts that a believer wouldn't find "faith-affirming" - in the same sort of way that official LDS publications like Truth Restored by Gordon B. Hinckley gloss over anything about LDS church history that its believers wouldn't consider "faith-affirming". The Wikipedia article on the LDS church though is much more objectively rigorous and academic in nature, which is what I'd like to see here. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 20:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have a source here (an academic thesis on Latter Day Saint schismatics) that mentions some of the schisms from TCOJC. First, there was a temporary break-off in 1873, that was led by George Barnes. (I'm not sure if this is the same as the Bickerton–Cadman schism of 1875 mentioned in the article...I haven't read up on it yet). Second, it states that in 1907 some apostles from TCOJC left the church and founded the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ". The split was over "the nature of life in the millennium". Third, in 1914, the Primitive Church of Jesus Christ was established by James Caldwell and other members of TCOJC. My source says they rejected the First Presidency as the legitimate governing body of the church. They also accepted the Book of Mormon but not Joseph Smith's First Vision. The Primitive Church and the RCOJC later merged.
I haven't looked into it in detail yet, but it appears to refer to TCOJC followers as "Bickertonites", and then post-schism refers to those who stayed loyal to TJOJC as "Cadmanites", precisely because Bickerton had not agreed with Cadman's succession. I'll add these mentions of schisms to the article with a citation.
I think there may be more history to be discussed than just the blunt statement of the current situation—"this church does not have a First Presidency". I too am researching and hope to find more. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 04:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
In my researching I found a reference to a William Cadman (I'm sure a different and unconnected one) that I found ironic, given the circumstances.
The December 12, 1895 New York Times has a brief article entitled, "A Remarkable English Polygamist". It notes that a William Cadman was convicted in London of polygamy for being married to seven wives. He was sentenced to seven years in prison - one year for each wife, maybe? He had 23 children. Here's a great line: "Some of his victims were rich when he married them, but did not long remain so."
Lots of William Cadmans out there, anyway, and each with a story. Now back to arguing over a rarefied academic debate on the nature of sources and NPOV. -
Reaverdrop (
talk/
nl) 05:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
See this edit. Confusion! Maybe a clarification in the article will help keep people straight. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 05:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Another example: See this article in the FARMS Review, third page (p. 261). The authors introduce "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" and later abbreviate it to "the Church of Jesus Christ".
This is just one example I happened to come across of what is in my experience a common habit for LDS Church members at least - who tend to abbreviate the name of their own church not as "the LDS Church" or "the Mormon Church", but as "the Church of Jesus Christ". More evidence for the likelihood of confusion in the article name. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 17:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
From the restoration up until today many people have left the church and tried to either found their own church or joined with another organization. I don't think it's necessary to cover all of the "schisms" just because people disagreed and left. You seem to be making a big deal about everything and trying to find faults with the church so that you can feel substatiated in your arguements that we have "glossed over" because it would hurt our faith too much to know that someone who lead the church was a man and had faults. It's your assumptions and not mine that are detrimental to the discussions here. I hope you can see the hypocrisy in your arguements.
I don't feel the need to correct the lds page because personally I would rather do something more productive on here, but thanks for the offer. JRN 12:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hey everyone, I think the research is great and we are really working together to improve the page. May I suggest doing these same edits to the history page. I think this page should have a condensed history with the expanded version on the history site. Check out the L-dS page to see what I am talking about. Sound good? Jcg5029 20:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is there such an extended discussion in this section about why the LDS Church's First Presidency under Brigham Young was invalidly constituted? If this article is about this church, why the focus on explaining why another church's succession claim is flawed? I can understand a short comment or an explanation in footnotes, as it used to be, but this is quite lengthy and detailed and seems to me to be distracting from the overall point of the section. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 01:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Corresponding to the comment above, Jcg5029 has done a major rewrite of this section - but it does not reflect the desired changes from the discussion here. See the rewrite in its current form here. It again includes a long discussion of matters relating mainly to the LDS Church (post 1844) and not to TCOJC. It also repeats itself two or three times about many statements within the first few paragraphs.
And, it jumps out of chronology, something that the earlier rewriting had improved on - that is, in the middle of the discussion of the events after Smith's death, it suddenly becomes a discussion of the viewpoints of TCOJC today, and goes back and forth without clarification. Maybe it would be more appropriate to have a separate section on TCOJC Interpretation of Succession, sometime after the History section.
Overall though, this still needs a lot of work. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 21:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The article has been changed back and forth a few times between saying Bickerton "joined" or merely "visited" or "investigated" the Utah LDS church at one point, with some edit comments saying he never joined that organization. However, if you read the reference that has been given for this statement, it says, speaking of William Bickerton, "He then joined the Utah Mormon Church for a short space of time until he heard the doctrine of polygamy advanced, causing him to separate himself from that group." [emphasis added] The statement is in the middle paragraph on p. 116. This document was written by V. James Lovalvo, at the time a member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of TCOJC. The document includes a header page saying it is "Approved by the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ", with a listing of the names of the 12, followed by the statement "Also endorsed by the ministers of The Church of Jesus Christ at the General Church Conference" in 1985, and that it is published and copyrighted by TCOJC itself. It is also still posted on the church's official website. This seems to make it a pretty authoritative statement at least of what TCOJC believes to be the facts of its history. With that in mind, the article should probably not be edited to remove the statement of Bickerton having joined the Utah LDS Church, unless someone can present convincing evidence why TCOJC's official document might be in error. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 18:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Cadman clarifies he visited for roughly ten months from Mar 25, 1851 to March 10, 1852 in page 6. Jcg5029 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with you because saying association we have concluded means the same thing, but joined could be misinterpreted. Until there is a consensus on the issue lets stick with the TWO history books of The Church of Jesus Christ. Jcg5029 21:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
If you find a L-dS Church clarifying that he did indeed join their organization lets stick with The Church of Jesus Christ's official church history volumes 1 and 2 which are in agreement on the wording. Jcg5029 21:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:CIVIL anyone? Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with you as stated multiple times above and will continue to reference the history volumes on this one to be as accurate as possible. Jcg5029 02:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
At President_of_the_Church#Presidents_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ, it lists Alexander Cherry, the 5th TCOJC president, with question marks for his birthdate. Anyone have more information on him? (And on the other presidents after Bickerton?)
I did a little looking around - there were only a few Alexander Cherrys in Pennsylvania; the International Genealogical Index (IGI) lists one who was born in June 1857 in Roscoe Township, Pennsylvania. Roscoe is only 11 miles from Monongahela. The 1880 U.S. Census has an Alexander Cherry born in PA at the same time, who in 1880 is living in Jefferson, PA, 21 miles from Roscoe (and working as a miner). President_of_the_Church#Presidents_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ says Cherry died on August 31, 1921, which would make him 64 at his passing away, if this is the same Roscoe from IGI and the 1880 census. I'm going to look into it further, but can anyone confirm or contradict this? - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 17:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
This article so far has little to no info on the church history after the 19th century or on any of its leaders after that time. It would be helpful to fill in some of that info. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 17:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is a new suggestion for the name of this article, to get around the issues of both confusion and offensiveness.
Take a look at this conference program for a conference last year of LDS/Restorationist organizations hosted by the John Whitmer Historical Association. Obviously this was an occasion in which it was important to prevent confusion among different organizations with a common background and similar names; and one in which TCOJC itself cooperated, with two apostles and its official church historian attending.
Take a look at how the conference program refers to the different organizations:
And, TCOJC repeats this reference for themselves, on their own official website.
This appears to show that TCOJC approved of this format for referencing themselves, in a setting in which there was a need to avoid an otherwise likelihood of confusion - a condition that also holds in the article titles of Wikipedia.
I think the best choice would be to move this article to the title "The Church of Jesus Christ (with Headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania)", with other shortcuts as appropriate (such as the current shortcut TCOJC, and maybe one like The Church of Jesus Christ (Pennsylvania)), and use the page titled "The Church of Jesus Christ" as a disambiguation page. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 17:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The current page has well over 10 direct citations from outside sources. I hope even more sources are added, but there is no need for a tag at this time. Could we all agree to that? Jcg5029 19:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
At the request of some editors I am planning on adding more current history to the page soon, as my course load allows. The caveat is there is very little recent information that I can add that is sourced outside of the organization. This is due to one main reason: For the past 100 years there has been little done that would warrant writers from the outside taking any interest. The reason stated before that so much outside information available for the lds page is because of the enormous amount of controversy that surrounds the organization. Unfortunately (or fortunately) that is not the case with the TCOJC so most sourcing will come from in house sources. I am actively seeking out good outside sources and would invite the input from some of the good editors here. I just want this to be put this out as to open a discussion and make sure there are no misconceptions about my actions. Thanks JRN 01:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
FYI, I went through and made a couple modifications to the recent changes by User:JNicklow to characterize a couple things a little more accurately, though I thought most of his recent changes added more information and clarity, such as this one for example. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 15:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
As Skeleton says, we can suppose all readers are going to move past the infobox and start reading the article. I have concerns about that too though. The early part of the article mentions only the succession crisis after Joseph Smith's death and this church's claim of succession through Sidney Rigdon. However, you have to read through much more of the article before you gain any hint that there was what was apparently a second succession crisis as Rigdon's church disintigrated, and Bickerton emerged to lay claim to be carrying on where Rigdon had fallen away. Not much info if there were any other significant competing claimants in that succession.
And further, you have to get most of the way down before you find out that there was what seems an awful lot like a third succession crisis, when Bickerton goes out west, and then there are simultaneous church presidents in the East and West, though this is all presented in what seems like a euphemistic style... "During this later time period, the First Presidency appears to have taken on a lesser role within the church...", and William Cadman enjoys strategic passive verbs on his way to finding himself "the president of the whole church" opposite a guy who had just been ordained to that position by Bickerton... with the only reference being to the victor who wrote the history, a book by Cadman himself!
I mean no offense to anyone who has faith in God having successively called Bickerton and Cadman to be His spokesman on Earth. But for purposes of objective history, this article is in serious need of some referenced sources independent of the apparently competing claimants within the church. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 00:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Your lack of understanding between WH Cadman and W Cadman is almost as great as your lack of understanding of this organization. 128.118.148.63 00:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to just say 1) College student - please tone it down. It is uncalled for. 2) If anybody would like to research and cite information to this page you are welcome, but lets cut the credibility questions and lack of faith in general of this organization. This groups history book is perfectly valid as are the rest of their sources. Tagging would be uncalled for completely, but researching is welcome. This is speculation from wiki editors against an organization and I also believe that to be uncalled for. Jcg5029 01:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
1) There is a cited second edition - not written by one man 2) If you feel this article needs more sources you are welcome to add them, however, your disbelief on their published records does not constitute a need for a tag. Tags are for article without citations or with incorrect citations. Find something besides speculation before adding a tag. Jcg5029 01:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
As we discussed, the LDS church articles have lots of sources from within and from outside the church. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 02:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
My bad on the style arguement. It was just to bring up a point. CSG 02:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CSG091006 ( talk • contribs)
Hey, guys, I think researching is great, but a tag is not needed -- until a consensus is reached on applying a tag do not apply it again. 146.186.44.179 11:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Folks, rather than going back into the discussion, I'll give my two cents here, but I beleive the way is clear to move forward. I'm not sure why there is so much discussion on this on when it seems clear cut.
We have a few precedences. When we outlined Mormon-ish naming conventions and the style guide on the Wiki in the early days of Wikipedia we decided to use the academic terminology as much as possible. That is why we use the term Latter Day Saint in so many cases rather than Mormon, etc. The academic term used is Bickertonite, I believe (Rigdonites are considered a defunt group by Mormon scholars, aren't they?). The second presedence is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite). We should adopt the same here. I realize that both the Strangite and Bickertonite appellations may be offensive (as is Mormon to LDS), but we are treating these from both an academic and historical perspective, and the page should reflect this. Therefore, I would suggest (The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite). I would then emphasize that the statetment in the lead paragraph that this appelation is not sanctioned by the church - similar to another presedence at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints where it states "widely known as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church." You'll aslo notice that Commmunity of Christ is also included in some (Mormonism) articles although they do not like it, but it must be from a historical and segmentation view point. That is the job of us historians - to lump them together in groups, even if there are a couple of exeptions here and there.
To be honest, the presedence on Wikipedia is clear, and this should be in line with LDS manual of Style and naming convention documents. I also know this is controversial, but it is the most NPOV thing to do - we follow academic norms. none of the above suggestions are academic, or sourced, so do not pass WP:Verify. We cannot make up our own term, but must use an existing one - and we should stick with the academic name. Thank the non-Mormon scholar Jan Shipps for this, as it is a wise course of action. Hope this helps. - Visorstuff 00:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't propose it, Visorstuff did. Maybe you didn't get that as you found it difficult to understand. I point out that a lot of name changes have occurred here without consensus, so I don't think any name for the article has a valid claim to one chosen "by consensus". I understand you are opposed to the name change because the one I mentioned offends you or members of the church, but that's typically not a good reason to avoid the name. There's probably a lot of stuff on WP that offends a lot of people, but it doesn't stop things from going forward. This being said, the name change has not been formally proposed yet. We are merely discussing the possibility of so proposing. When proposed, you'll have ample opportunity to present your view. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 01:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
(P.S. To Visorstuff's comment "(Rigdonites are considered a defunt group by Mormon scholars, aren't they?)", it seems they are indeed as a factual matter, since Bickerton started up his group with a substantial break in continuity in time and place after the disintigration of Rigdon's group, while Bickerton laid claim to continuity through the Rigdonite group. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 01:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that's a fantastic decision. We can finally get some consistency throughout WP by avoiding the use of articles on the names of organizations. This just creates all the more reason to have the name of this church include a disambiguation -Bickertonite, since there are many "Church of Jesus Christ"s out there. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what "the organization" uses when seemingly everyone else in the academic world does otherwise. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
That's simply not convincing when it's in wide usage by neutral academics. There is no consensus among them that it is "offensive", and I have yet to see a neutral source (or any source, for that matter) state that it is an offensive term. It's no more offensive than "Mormon" when applied to the Mormon Church, or "Josephite" to describe the Community of Christ, or Hedrickite for the Church of Christ (Temple Lot). If you are personally offended by the term, that's your prerogative, but we're not going to stop using it or suggesting its use as a term of disambiguation when it is in such wide usage with the neutral sources that do exist. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm unsure about some of your statements; for example, it conceivable that the guidelines could change for one denomination but not all others. There's no a priori reason a rule or standard cannot differ between denominations. But anyway, it's clear we see things differently. When the proposal to change is made, everyone will have their chance to have a say. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 06:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
When this issue came up last year, my main point was that The Church of Jesus Christ is the organization's official name, as well as the name it calls itself. Thus, under the guidelines of
Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Proper nouns, that weighs two to one in favor of keeping the article entitled
The Church of Jesus Christ.
Wikipedia:Disambiguation is also arguably implicated, because there are a couple of other entities that use that name. However, those entities (I think it was a church building in some former Soviet country and some sort of obscure internet church in the Deep South) aren't notable, and don't have their own pages. Thus, there's really no need to disambiguate. As to the thought that sometimes the LDS Church is called by that name, that's not a problem, because the LDS Church already has its own name,
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and there's no need to disambiguate. There's also no need for a "(Bickertonite)" parenthetical when there is no other article titled "The Church of Jesus Christ" (yet, at least).
COGDEN 18:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
As a side issue——why is it that these editors keep popping out of the woodwork on this page to make comments. They haven't made any edits since May, and then when discussions pick up here, they are suddenly keen to register their vote. ... Hmmm. Assuming good faith—Assuming good faith. But it is kind of funny. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
What do you want to know? I edited as an anon for a few months until I realized I had no credibility until I registered. So I did. Now I'm registered, and I continue to edit on a variety of articles. Not just this one when the talk page kicks up. Anything else? Now it's your turn. :) Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I was being civil. I just thought it was funny. If your lack of editing variety is a sore spot with you, I apologize. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Being civil means not accusing. Rich Uncle feel free to assume good faith. 146.186.44.179 11:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to gather some material from new sources, to move beyond theoretically discussing the possibility of gathering new material. It's worth noting the first Google hit on William Bickerton is to the Government of Ontario's religioustolerance.org website, under the heading... "The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)". It starts by explaining the need for the naming convention: "There are at least 20 different religious bodies in the U.S. which have adopted the name: 'The Church of Jesus Christ.'" It also includes several sources - including Cadman '45, and some apparently non-ingroup sources.
I also, on Google Scholar, found a PhD thesis on "The Mormons" from 2002, from an Italian university, in Italian... we'll come up with better sources as we keep looking. But it's worth noting this PhD student introduces us to some heterodox takes on the info so far presented in this article, in a few paragraphs on "The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)". Pardon my Translator - as I said, we'll find more sources, I am just starting - but it's worth contrasting what our Italian friend reports (emphases and interjections added):
Like I said, more information needed. This is from just one (poorly machine-translated) PhD thesis, but if anything it reconfirms the need for more, independent sources. Working; - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 02:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
More sources:
More on the way. Working... - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 03:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Another useful-looking source found:
- Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 02:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
TO CONSIDER: In your research you may find slightly smaller numbers on TJOJC's membership. I would accept the numbers as they currently stand because recently the church has boomed in some foreign areas like Africa. I would doubt any historical source would literally be that up to date, but the records are accurate. Sound good? Jcg5029 04:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The February 9, 1927 New York Times has an article entitled "Miners Pick Wage Board", about a miners' union having selected a committee to meet with the mining companies to negotiate wages, and one of the people selected for the committee is a William Cadman from Pennsylvania. Any idea if "our" William Cadman from Pennsylvania would have been a coal miner and labor union activist? (This would obviously be William Cadman Jr., i.e. William H. Cadman, not the dad, if it is the same guy at all.) - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 19:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I love the sources you guys are comming up with but I removed the tag. Until a consensus is reached do not apply the tag again. Your friend, 146.186.44.179 11:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It is simply an objective fact that almost all the sourced material on this page is from sources within the church - for example, the first 8 listed references include six in-church sources used for 23 citations.
Beyond that, there are pretty clear indications, as covered above, that additional, highly relevant facts are known that are not adequately covered by the current article - so this is not just a matter of picking out a few independent sources to confirm what is already there.
This is just a tag for more sources. It is needed. It does not mean we won't consider whatever other sources and information we come up with with due care. Finding more factual information should not be a source of controversy. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 15:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with all the concerns you express here, Jcg5029, except for the need for sources to be "recent" - primary sources may be old, yet deemed credible and valuable after careful evaluation, and indeed may be more valuable than only relying on recent sources to document long-past events. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 02:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
OKAY, over the past few weeks a few sources have been added. No information has come from these other sources to dispute the History of The Church of Jesus Christ and their other published documents. Because they have stood up to the test, I believe it is time to remove the tag with continued emphasis on further sources and added information. I would consider the History section right now verified (although not complete). 146.186.44.182 14:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Archive 1 of this talk page is currently red-linked. Is this intentionality or an oversight? -- 159.182.1.4 00:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Following from the discussion above under the section heading "Article name", it turns out TCOJC filed a federal trademark application in April of this year and got a first Office action last month from the Patent & Trademark Office, denying their application, in part for likelihood of confusion with prior registered marks of the LDS church. This isn't determinative of the issues related to disambiguation in Wikipedia, nor is it even a final resolution of the trademark application, but it does have probative value for the discussion here. So, I've reprinted a relevant section of the Office action below. (Note, no copyright applies to this Office action because it is a government-produced work.) (This can be looked up under the trademark application number 77159757.) Note that the trademark examining attorney also refuses to register the mark under the grounds that it is merely descriptive - which is relevant to the common usage of the term "the church of Jesus Christ" in a generic sense to refer to the unitary church in the time of the New Testament or to Christian churches in general. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 19:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is one example of what I see as the need for more objective sources for this article. By the article's own text as currently written, there's no indication that Bickerton ever acknowledged that Cadman should be his successor - in fact, it indicates that Bickerton ordained a different fellow to succeed him. But there is also no indication that this might be an issue subject to questioning. Instead, it seems to indicate that Cadman became the next church president through little more than Bickerton's absence and the magic of passive verbs. The justification provided includes indicating that the First Presidency (led by Bickerton) "appears to have taken on a lesser role within the church" while the Quorum of the Twelve (led by Cadman) became more important - though this seems to run precisely counter to the argument on which this church's original succession is based, i.e. that the only authoritative succession was through the First Presidency (in the form of its First Counselor, Rigdon), and not through the Quorum of the Twelve (i.e. Brigham Young and his supporters). This logically suggests itself as a potential controversy, but is entirely glossed over as the article is currently written. It's easy to see how, if the current church traces its authority through William Cadman, it might not want to emphasize facts that don't tend to support a clear succession of Cadman. But what happened to Bickerton and his group in St. John, Kansas? One of my sources I found recently says the COJC also founded a second colony in Comanche County, Kansas, 75 miles south of St. John, in 1909, that it was led first by Charles Tickhill and then by an A. B. Cadman, and that it disintigrated in 1928 after a string of disagreements and misfortunes. Where is that information, and how does it fit in? It's things like that I'd like to see better explained, and that are going to need out-of-church sources to do so. The article in its current state describes the COJC's history with an air of apologetics, of glossing over facts that a believer wouldn't find "faith-affirming" - in the same sort of way that official LDS publications like Truth Restored by Gordon B. Hinckley gloss over anything about LDS church history that its believers wouldn't consider "faith-affirming". The Wikipedia article on the LDS church though is much more objectively rigorous and academic in nature, which is what I'd like to see here. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 20:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have a source here (an academic thesis on Latter Day Saint schismatics) that mentions some of the schisms from TCOJC. First, there was a temporary break-off in 1873, that was led by George Barnes. (I'm not sure if this is the same as the Bickerton–Cadman schism of 1875 mentioned in the article...I haven't read up on it yet). Second, it states that in 1907 some apostles from TCOJC left the church and founded the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ". The split was over "the nature of life in the millennium". Third, in 1914, the Primitive Church of Jesus Christ was established by James Caldwell and other members of TCOJC. My source says they rejected the First Presidency as the legitimate governing body of the church. They also accepted the Book of Mormon but not Joseph Smith's First Vision. The Primitive Church and the RCOJC later merged.
I haven't looked into it in detail yet, but it appears to refer to TCOJC followers as "Bickertonites", and then post-schism refers to those who stayed loyal to TJOJC as "Cadmanites", precisely because Bickerton had not agreed with Cadman's succession. I'll add these mentions of schisms to the article with a citation.
I think there may be more history to be discussed than just the blunt statement of the current situation—"this church does not have a First Presidency". I too am researching and hope to find more. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 04:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
In my researching I found a reference to a William Cadman (I'm sure a different and unconnected one) that I found ironic, given the circumstances.
The December 12, 1895 New York Times has a brief article entitled, "A Remarkable English Polygamist". It notes that a William Cadman was convicted in London of polygamy for being married to seven wives. He was sentenced to seven years in prison - one year for each wife, maybe? He had 23 children. Here's a great line: "Some of his victims were rich when he married them, but did not long remain so."
Lots of William Cadmans out there, anyway, and each with a story. Now back to arguing over a rarefied academic debate on the nature of sources and NPOV. -
Reaverdrop (
talk/
nl) 05:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
See this edit. Confusion! Maybe a clarification in the article will help keep people straight. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 05:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Another example: See this article in the FARMS Review, third page (p. 261). The authors introduce "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" and later abbreviate it to "the Church of Jesus Christ".
This is just one example I happened to come across of what is in my experience a common habit for LDS Church members at least - who tend to abbreviate the name of their own church not as "the LDS Church" or "the Mormon Church", but as "the Church of Jesus Christ". More evidence for the likelihood of confusion in the article name. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 17:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
From the restoration up until today many people have left the church and tried to either found their own church or joined with another organization. I don't think it's necessary to cover all of the "schisms" just because people disagreed and left. You seem to be making a big deal about everything and trying to find faults with the church so that you can feel substatiated in your arguements that we have "glossed over" because it would hurt our faith too much to know that someone who lead the church was a man and had faults. It's your assumptions and not mine that are detrimental to the discussions here. I hope you can see the hypocrisy in your arguements.
I don't feel the need to correct the lds page because personally I would rather do something more productive on here, but thanks for the offer. JRN 12:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hey everyone, I think the research is great and we are really working together to improve the page. May I suggest doing these same edits to the history page. I think this page should have a condensed history with the expanded version on the history site. Check out the L-dS page to see what I am talking about. Sound good? Jcg5029 20:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is there such an extended discussion in this section about why the LDS Church's First Presidency under Brigham Young was invalidly constituted? If this article is about this church, why the focus on explaining why another church's succession claim is flawed? I can understand a short comment or an explanation in footnotes, as it used to be, but this is quite lengthy and detailed and seems to me to be distracting from the overall point of the section. Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 01:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Corresponding to the comment above, Jcg5029 has done a major rewrite of this section - but it does not reflect the desired changes from the discussion here. See the rewrite in its current form here. It again includes a long discussion of matters relating mainly to the LDS Church (post 1844) and not to TCOJC. It also repeats itself two or three times about many statements within the first few paragraphs.
And, it jumps out of chronology, something that the earlier rewriting had improved on - that is, in the middle of the discussion of the events after Smith's death, it suddenly becomes a discussion of the viewpoints of TCOJC today, and goes back and forth without clarification. Maybe it would be more appropriate to have a separate section on TCOJC Interpretation of Succession, sometime after the History section.
Overall though, this still needs a lot of work. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 21:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The article has been changed back and forth a few times between saying Bickerton "joined" or merely "visited" or "investigated" the Utah LDS church at one point, with some edit comments saying he never joined that organization. However, if you read the reference that has been given for this statement, it says, speaking of William Bickerton, "He then joined the Utah Mormon Church for a short space of time until he heard the doctrine of polygamy advanced, causing him to separate himself from that group." [emphasis added] The statement is in the middle paragraph on p. 116. This document was written by V. James Lovalvo, at the time a member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of TCOJC. The document includes a header page saying it is "Approved by the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ", with a listing of the names of the 12, followed by the statement "Also endorsed by the ministers of The Church of Jesus Christ at the General Church Conference" in 1985, and that it is published and copyrighted by TCOJC itself. It is also still posted on the church's official website. This seems to make it a pretty authoritative statement at least of what TCOJC believes to be the facts of its history. With that in mind, the article should probably not be edited to remove the statement of Bickerton having joined the Utah LDS Church, unless someone can present convincing evidence why TCOJC's official document might be in error. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 18:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Cadman clarifies he visited for roughly ten months from Mar 25, 1851 to March 10, 1852 in page 6. Jcg5029 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with you because saying association we have concluded means the same thing, but joined could be misinterpreted. Until there is a consensus on the issue lets stick with the TWO history books of The Church of Jesus Christ. Jcg5029 21:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
If you find a L-dS Church clarifying that he did indeed join their organization lets stick with The Church of Jesus Christ's official church history volumes 1 and 2 which are in agreement on the wording. Jcg5029 21:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:CIVIL anyone? Rich Uncle Skeleton (talk) 02:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with you as stated multiple times above and will continue to reference the history volumes on this one to be as accurate as possible. Jcg5029 02:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
At President_of_the_Church#Presidents_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ, it lists Alexander Cherry, the 5th TCOJC president, with question marks for his birthdate. Anyone have more information on him? (And on the other presidents after Bickerton?)
I did a little looking around - there were only a few Alexander Cherrys in Pennsylvania; the International Genealogical Index (IGI) lists one who was born in June 1857 in Roscoe Township, Pennsylvania. Roscoe is only 11 miles from Monongahela. The 1880 U.S. Census has an Alexander Cherry born in PA at the same time, who in 1880 is living in Jefferson, PA, 21 miles from Roscoe (and working as a miner). President_of_the_Church#Presidents_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ says Cherry died on August 31, 1921, which would make him 64 at his passing away, if this is the same Roscoe from IGI and the 1880 census. I'm going to look into it further, but can anyone confirm or contradict this? - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 17:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
This article so far has little to no info on the church history after the 19th century or on any of its leaders after that time. It would be helpful to fill in some of that info. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 17:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is a new suggestion for the name of this article, to get around the issues of both confusion and offensiveness.
Take a look at this conference program for a conference last year of LDS/Restorationist organizations hosted by the John Whitmer Historical Association. Obviously this was an occasion in which it was important to prevent confusion among different organizations with a common background and similar names; and one in which TCOJC itself cooperated, with two apostles and its official church historian attending.
Take a look at how the conference program refers to the different organizations:
And, TCOJC repeats this reference for themselves, on their own official website.
This appears to show that TCOJC approved of this format for referencing themselves, in a setting in which there was a need to avoid an otherwise likelihood of confusion - a condition that also holds in the article titles of Wikipedia.
I think the best choice would be to move this article to the title "The Church of Jesus Christ (with Headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania)", with other shortcuts as appropriate (such as the current shortcut TCOJC, and maybe one like The Church of Jesus Christ (Pennsylvania)), and use the page titled "The Church of Jesus Christ" as a disambiguation page. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 17:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The current page has well over 10 direct citations from outside sources. I hope even more sources are added, but there is no need for a tag at this time. Could we all agree to that? Jcg5029 19:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
At the request of some editors I am planning on adding more current history to the page soon, as my course load allows. The caveat is there is very little recent information that I can add that is sourced outside of the organization. This is due to one main reason: For the past 100 years there has been little done that would warrant writers from the outside taking any interest. The reason stated before that so much outside information available for the lds page is because of the enormous amount of controversy that surrounds the organization. Unfortunately (or fortunately) that is not the case with the TCOJC so most sourcing will come from in house sources. I am actively seeking out good outside sources and would invite the input from some of the good editors here. I just want this to be put this out as to open a discussion and make sure there are no misconceptions about my actions. Thanks JRN 01:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
FYI, I went through and made a couple modifications to the recent changes by User:JNicklow to characterize a couple things a little more accurately, though I thought most of his recent changes added more information and clarity, such as this one for example. - Reaverdrop ( talk/ nl) 15:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)