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The information contained in this article, as well as several others concerning "LDS denominations" is inaccurate in it's explanation of the "crisis of succession". When Joseph Smith was murdered, the procedures by which the next prophet and president was to be ordained were already established by revelation. The organization of the First Presidency and Quorom of Twelve Apostles followed the correct process, and by inspiration and common consent the Lord directed Brigham Young to continue the work.
These articles give the false impression that Brigham Young was leading a "secret faction" and that he essentially assumed power by misleading the entire church membership into voting for him. This could not be further from the truth since Young, along with the rest of apostles, actually adhered to church doctrine and followed the correct procedures after the death of Smith.
During this time there were several men who took it upon themselves to become the next prophet in opposition to everything that had been previously organized. These men left the Church and decided to disregard the approved process. They forgot that prophets are called by God through revelation, not by the personal desires of men who covet power.
The Bickertonites, Strangites, etc. all decided to seperate themselves from the Church based on what they thought should happen rather than simply following the proper procedures.
These articles paint the apostates as heroes while Young and other church leaders are denigrated for doing what they were directed to do by Joseph Smith himself.
Thanks, I thought I was being neutral. Can you tell me how to improve?
It should be pointed out to the writer above that Brigham Young created a new church when he had all members who followed him to the Great Basin baptized, thus rejecting the authority of God restored through Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and creating a new authority based on Young.
With regard to the above, no church members were rebaptized into the Mormon church of Brigham Young vs the Mormon church of Joseph Smith. Do you have a reference for the claim?
With regards to references and disputes above, check out the LDS Church History from 1844-1860 as well as writings by Paul Peterson and others. Rebaptism is an undisputed LDS Historical fact, even though many Utah Mormons are unaware. With regards to earlier historical issues from 1844 listen to the facts. Brigham Young was not placed in the position of the First Presidency until 1847. It seems odd he would claim any sense of leadership of the Church before that. As to Rigdon's true leadership, he was the only member of the Church who was still in the leadership position of the First Presidency -- which had ALWAYS governed the Church for the past fifteen years. Young took a less than majority vote (5) to replace Rigdon -- Rigdon's claim was to be a 'governor' for the Church during this time period of crisis until order could be restored. The Church requires a majority vote from the 12. If you don't believe me check out Church history and Rigdon's biography. Either way clearly The Church of Jesus Christ(Bickertonites) have as fair a claim as any other organization.
The article states, "Church members always greet each other with a "holy kiss" (following New Testament precedents)."
A holy kiss is an interesting concept and should be explained in more detail? What does it entail? A simple kiss on the cheek? An Eastern kiss? More detail on this would be nice to explain. Also a reference to the D&C on washing of the feet (or something similar) would be useful cross referece.
Speaking of the D&C, what are the Bickertonites scriptures? is it just the bible and book of mormon?
(Speaking as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ headquarters Monongahela PA, The scriptures that are accepted are the Bible, and Book of Mormon. None of Joseph Smiths other writings are accepted.)
"Hymns through a single sister" The entire last paragraph of the hyms section needs to be re-written - it is difficult to understand. Who is the single member? Is she married? Is it the same she as is referenced in the next sentence? Etc.
Just a few suggestions to make this better. - Visorstuff 23:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
The assertion that the procedures were already in place for selection of the next President of the LDS Church after Joseph Smith is entirely wrong. Eeven after John Taylor (the 3rd President) the succsssion order had not yet been established and it was nearly 3 years before Wilford Woodruff becaame the 4th President and it was with his Presidency that the succession order was established forever for the future of the Salt Lake City based LDS Church.
I realize that when one deals with religion it is very difficult to remove a point of view, but the quote from the article "The songs are quite beautiful and filled with the Spirit of God" definitely is not NPOV.
Agreed. This article in no way shape or form follows the NPOV Policy of Wikipedia. The article mentions how elders aren't called by "Father" or "Reverend" as they are volunteers and not paid (as according to Scripture)! I don't think it is an article's purpose to tell the reader what is and isn't scriptual. There are changes that are easy to make such as replacing the "as according to Scripture" with "as according to the scriptual interpretations of the Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite).",etc
"as according to scripture" is a NPOV. We are not interpreting scripture just merely stating what scriptures says. When Christ said "freely ye have received, freely give." He is clearly showing that payment for the Gospel was not in Christ's holy plan. When he said "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven", Christ clearly states to call no man your father. These are tenants of our beliefs founded upon scripture, not interpreted how we want to. Thus, statements "according to scripture" are NPOV.
and just for any future references there scriptures are found in the KJV as that is the version used in The Church of Jesus Christ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JNicklow ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
Excuse me, but IN CONTEXT, it should be clear to anyone with even the smallest mental capacity that this article is about The Church of Jesus Christ and its position on points that separate it from the rest of the Restoration Churches in the Latter Day Saint grouping.
I dispute this comment:
"When Joseph Smith was murdered, the procedures by which the next prophet and president was to be ordained were already established by revelation. The organization of the First Presidency and Quorom of Twelve Apostles followed the correct process, and by inspiration and common consent the Lord directed Brigham Young to continue the work."
This is NOT borne out by the facts. There was confusion and Smith left a number of possible succession models behind. There was no "one" procedure in place, but several possible succession models.
Not only was there no procedure in place but such did not happen until after the death of John Taylor, the 3rd President of the Salt Lake City LDS, when it went nearly 3 years before it was decided up Wilford Woodruff. It was not until this time that the procedure to be used forever forward in the Church was approved and sustained by the Twelve.
There was no policy that the Second Quorum succeed the First. That was the position taken by the faction of the church that eventually followed Young to Utah.
Since Sidney Rigdon was STILL alive, his position was as valid as any. You have to remember that what we see now as "obvious" was not so obvious back then.
The story about Sidney Rigdon being rejected by Smith has been shown to be an oft-repeated myth that was constructed later AFTER Rigdon and the Twelve went their separate ways. See Samuel Taylor's "Auntie Mormon" recap of the actual events, among others. So, while TRUE that the relationship between Smith and Rigdon was very strained at the time of Smith's death, it was not so bad that Ridgon was not part of the First Presidency as some haver falsified.
Brigham Young may well have felt right in his position and he did carry the vote of the majority as the Second Quorum was sustained in their calling. Rigdon's suggestion that he be appointed as guardian was rejected, partially on the strength that Young advanced on no one being able to replace the Prophet.
Rigdon was later excommunicted and he, in turn, excommunicated the Twelve.
At the time, he was denouncing the Twelve for POLYGAMY and POLYANDRY and he was called a liar and an apostate for doing so. Recall that a faction in the Church was practicing these at a time that BOTH the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon SPECIFICALLY denounced these abberations.
Young later re-instituted a First Presidency under less-than-full quorum conditions.
History has also shown that the LDS have been by far the most successful branch of this movement. That does not, however, give it exclusive rights to the claims of the movement!
"These articles give the false impression that Brigham Young was leading a "secret faction" and that he essentially assumed power by misleading the entire church membership into voting for him."
I think Brigham Young was an able and skilled leader. He believed in what he was doing. He exhibited the Alpha Male behaviour at times in doing so.
He was NOT universally accepted by all in the original church.
You Utah LDS have a right to claim to be PART of that history, but so do the others of us. We are NOT your "apostates" any more than YOU are ours. All of the resulting churches at the dispersion of the saints at Nauvoo have a claim to this legacy!
"This could not be further from the truth since Young, along with the rest of apostles, actually adhered to church doctrine and followed the correct procedures after the death of Smith."
I beg to differ.
The point that has been obscured by revisonist history is that it was but ONE of MANY possible "church doctrine and ... correct procedures" Smith left behind. Michael Quinn, formerly of your church, wrote an article that defined the 8 (as I recall) models of succssion Smith left behind. You may want to read it.
"During this time there were several men who took it upon themselves to become the next prophet in opposition to everything that had been previously organized. These men left the Church and decided to disregard the approved process. They forgot that prophets are called by God through revelation, not by the personal desires of men who covet power."
Now who is slipping in OPINION as fact? The above is the Utah LDS view. If we "Bickertonites" agreed with you, there would not be an issue, right?
"The Bickertonites, Strangites, etc. all decided to seperate themselves from the Church based on what they thought should happen rather than simply following the proper procedures."
Again easily demonstratable as OPINION.
"These articles paint the apostates as heroes while Young and other church leaders are denigrated for doing what they were directed to do by Joseph Smith himself."
Why do so many of you Utah LDS like the "A" word??? Is that your BEST answer to the legitimacy of other Restoration Christians? Why can't you just love us and let us love you back?
We were together for a mere 14 years and have existed APART for 161 years. We have ALL survived and we have disproven each other's "dire" predicitions of each other's failure.
Can we move on?
Why can't we do as Community of Christ President Steve Veazey suggests towards other Restoration churches and "be good neighbors"? Part of that process would eliminate the use of the "A" word and the ability to accept that there ARE legitimate reasons for other latter day saints to follow variant positions without name-calling. ..
In both Bibilical and Book of Mormon scripture, it is clearly outlined that "by their fruits, ye shall know them". The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints clearly fits the description, and any break off from the true restored church of God, separates itself from living revelation.
Whoever proposed this merge doesn't have a clue about this Church or what it represents. Yes, William Bickerton converted to Mormonism under Sidney Ridgon's influence, but Bickerton broke with Rigdon in 1846. The Ridgonite Church went on to other parts of Pennsylvania while Bickerton remained behind in Monongahela. Bickerton was largely a self-taught (autodidact) Mormon and founded his own Church completely independent of Rigdon. Therefore, this suggested merge is ridiculous. The two Churches are entirely separate and independent of each other. StudierMalMarburg 16:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Rename
Sorry for any confusion but the church's official name is "The Church of Jesus Christ" and not "Church of Jesus Christ" so I had to add "The" to the name according to WP:NCD. Thanks
McKay, While I understand the need for linked material you are obviously missing the point. First of all the pages you are trying to link are POV pages. The difficulty with that time period is that there is no sure understanding of exactly what was and what happened. Each restoration group has different claims. The linked pages are POV pages that only show the LDS POV. That is NOT concurrent with TCOJC beliefs and therefore does not explain to readers what we mean when we use those terms. You cannot link the pages unless the page contains the beliefs of the TCOJC accoring to WP:UNDUE you must give some weight to all sides of the issue. So untill there is information on the linked page to our beliefs you cannot link the page. So I am removing the link to all sides can be satisfied. JRN 17:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
You continue to keep editing this page regardless of what you edit is correct or not. I didn't ask you to stop editing altogether, I merely asked you to stop editing UNTIL you became more familiar with The Church so that you didn't keep making mistakes. Your current revision of the stand that we are not affiliated with any other churches will be reverted.
Sidney Rigdon was excommunicated by the LDS church therefore severing all ties and affiliations to the church. As he was not affiliated with the LDS from 1845 on anything he did after that is not affiliated with the LDS church. Although we share 14 years of history from 1830-1844 after that point there is no more affiliation because of Rigdon's excommunication. Please do not continue to make edits that are unsubstatiated. If you do not know what you are talking about then please don't make changes.
205.149.71.152 18:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
can you explain what is meant by the line "It claims true succession from all other Latter Day Saint sects." I think "secession" might be closer, but it can't have seceded from all of the sects, just the original sect. I'm confused by that statement. McKay 22:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonites) does not claim to have left anything. It claims to be the Church as restored by Joseph Smith, jr. According to The Church, all other Latter Day Saint movements broke off from The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite). Here in lies your lack of understanding to the previous topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcg5029 ( talk • contribs)
SESmith has made changes to the page that I totally approve of. I like the version that's up there. His addition of "officially" really helps the point I was trying to get across. Do we have any other problems with the header as is? McKay 05:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
The addition of "official" makes no change in meaning and is pretty much a ticky-tack change but if it shuts up McKay then I'm fine with it. 205.149.72.72 12:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
As it stands now, if this page is to stay in the "latter day saint movement" wikiproject then there needs to be major revisions and clarifications within the page. There is very little similar between the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ and other restorationist churches. Beliefs on Faith and Doctrine, Priesthood, Texts, and many others need to be more fully explained and clarified so as to not confuse the majortiy opinion of other restoration groups with those of The Church of Jesus Christ. I am going to try to make the additions and clarfications and I hope that everyone can work with me in adhering to wiki policy and keeping a NPOV. I just ask that instead of blanking my revisions you would make suggestions for corrections to adhere to policy pn the talk page. I am not a programmer and will undoubtedly need help. Your patience will be appreciated. JRN 13:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay I think the initial page looks really good. Are we able now to remove the trashy symbol above?
Also there are two huge issues that should be addressed. When a person types in The Church of Jesus Christ on Wiki, they are already relinked to the Utah Mormon's website. Since this type has just as much relevance for our site, shouldn't search results be displayed?
The more important issue is The Church of Jesus Christ with Headquarters in Monongahela, PA's name on WIKI. I understand and am content that many within the Restoration and others refer to us a Bickertonites. It should therefore be in bold and in the first paragraph, but shouldn't the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ be the site name??? I understand this will mean changing links and overall a large task, but I feel it is important to properly represent the Church. I am open to thoughts on the subject and know this is not a simple 'change the name' task. JCG5029
I agree with McKay. Placing a direct link only creates the same problem for a dozen other organizations. The way the search results show now are very relevant. So my question is slightly different, would it be possible to place the Church's official name first -- followed by the Bickertonite name and discussion? People who may at first think of The Church as 'Bickertonites' and click on the links would then see the official name clarifying the issue, but still understand this was the same Church they were researching...
JRN 16:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, Feel free to keep working on later sections, but I'm going to request a little more work on the head section. While I think the content is appropriate, I think we're going to need some additional sources for the verifiability of the intro paragraph. Don't misread the tags I'll be putting on the intro paragraph as malicious, I think the content is fine, I'm just trying to adhere to another core wikipedia policy of WP:Attributability. So feel free to leave the content present, just get the material sourced. McKay 16:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that the "tree link" added to the bottom of the page is
I think it should be removed JRN 22:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree and removed it. It would probably look nice at the Latter Day Saint movement page. Maybe whoever added it should place it there. Jcg5029 23:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There is another issue that should be addressed here concerning pictures attempting to portray the Latter Day Saint movement. The box on the stated issue contains a picture of Joseph Smith kneeling before two figures. This is a picture describing accounts by Joseph Smith and others. I am not here to argue with the validity of those writings. There are other accounts found written by the hand of Joseph Smith -- see Personal Writings by Joseph Smith claiming only one personage (that of Christ). This is a hotly debated topic for many within the Restoration and Latter Day Saint movements. Such a hot issue should not blatently be on display showcasing one (the Utah Mormon) opinion of the subject. That would be a POV issue, not that I am an expert on the WIKI policy. Clearly the controversy should not favor one side and all groups should be treated with equal respect. Maybe no picture should be there, or some other picture like one with different group's printed Book of Mormon. That way all groups are represented in a non offensive way within the box on the right hand side of the Links to the Latter Day Saint movement. Jcg5029 23:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is nothing being shown past scriptures? Why did the category box disappear??
I have re-added links to those other articles. If you note, all of those links actually have sections covering Bickertonite structure..., with the one exception of First Presidency which isn't referring to Bickertonite beliefs, but is referring to the historical position of Brigham Younch, of which First Presidency covers clearly. McKay 17:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
JNicklow just made a change to the article. I'm fine with such a change, but we have discussed approving changes before they are made. Can we agree to do this?
McKay 18:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought all discussion was closed and accepted on the first paragraph??? Unless somebody wants to add something to the discussion DO NOT change a statement without a clear reason. That discussion had ended before please to NOT change entire statement on this site without listing a reason SESMITH or you will be guilty of vandalism on this site. When discussion ends do not wait a week to rechange your opinion on this site. Thank you. Jcg5029 22:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that the sections on "Joseph Smith" and "Role of The Church" are out of place. I think maybe they should be moved toward the beginning of the page. I think it breaks up the flow of the page. What does everyone else think? JRN 15:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree flow is very important for The Church of Jesus Christ's site and changes could always be made to improve. Jcg5029 17:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I took out the sentence that everyone has been editing and re-editing and insert one that was clear and concise on the subject of affiliation. At the point of the succession The Church believes that Rigdon was correct in what he did and thus his excommunication ended the affiliation between TCOJC and other latter day saint denominations. I believe the statement is NPOV but please feel free to change some wording if you feel free, but I would ask to leave a message explaining why since this sentence has been so hotly debated recently. Thank you JRN 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There has been a question raised several times, by me and others, and I would like it answered. Though it's been asked, I think they've been skirting about the issue. I don't think we can get everything resolved until it has been answered. So I'm making a special post just to ask it, Does The Church of Jesus Christ with Headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania or it's members believe they are a part of the Latter Day Saint movement? We've seen links to that be removed on several occasions. It appears as if they resent the designation. Is that where some of the problems are coming from? McKay 16:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it necessary to include the total membership of The Church? It is not a piece of information that is widely published and is not one that I think we are going to be able to cite. Let me know what you think. CSG 12:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure, the problem is many of the current publications are out of date. When a group is small like The Church of Jesus Christ and they are growing at a rapid rate like they are -- it makes official number difficult to remain up to date. General Church Conference minutes might contain totals, but somehow I doubt it and doubt their useage on this site would be completely appropriate. Jcg5029 17:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Then would it be appropriate to eliminate that piece of data as it cannot be correctly cited and would be difficult to keep accurate? CSG 18:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought changing the name to The Church of Jesus Christ (Monongahela) was good as it incorporated the legal name of The Church. Also the Bickertonite part was covered in the opening paragraph. Can we come to a concensus before making anymore changes to the name so that we can limit reverts and arguements? JRN 12:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, SESmith, I had never looked at the Latter Day Saint naming conventions site before. Generally I believe its goals are to properly represent all Latter Day Saint movement groups. Lets start out with the first guidline...
1) Use accurate titles and terms.
2)Present titles and terms in a neutral point of view; avoid "endorsing" or "opposing" the views of any church.
Conclusions??? Obviously this is a very serious issue. None of us here desire TCOJC to be misrepresented at Wikipedia. Might I also say that most of the world considers the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as mormons, but that title is not officially the name of the site or within the name. Neither is Bickertonite within TCOJC's name. Now, since the majority of individuals within the Latter Day Saint movement do refer to TCOJC as Bickertonites, why don't the editors come to the obvious conclusion. That is the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ with Headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania -- SHOULD BE THE TITLE of this Church's site. Now because so many refer to them as Bickertonites then YES please leave links to The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) that redirect to the proper site. No person would be confused as to what group they were viewing and, in fact, the people may just learn the proper name of the Church and this form of misrepresentation might begin to be resolved.
What does everyone think?? Jcg5029 15:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
15:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC) Jcg5029
Now that the page has been moved, I have a question. Why the "dash" (-) in the name? Does the full legal name use the dash? If not, should it not be eliminated? Thanks. -
SESmith 22:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I had tried to leave it without the dash but initially I was not allowed, it seemed the most logical alternative. Jcg5029 23:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Our general conclusion was that TCOJC should be titled here with its official name. I assumed the official name was The Church of Jesus Christ with Headquarters in Monongahela, PA. This was because this WIKI site said that. I have just made a phone call to the General Church Trustee of The Church of Jesus Christ -- Joe Ross. The official name of this church is The Church of Jesus Christ. That is federally recognized and approved, US government stamped. So, in order to properly represent this Church with the official name. There have been legal attempts by the Utah Latter Day Saints to not allow The Church of Jesus Christ to keep the name. No attempt has succeeded and the official name remains The Church of Jesus Christ. I will fix the errors within this document and I recommend the name The Church of Jesus Christ because that is the legal name of this church, like it or not.
Jcg5029 00:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I just feel to remind everyone that this is to protect the membership of The Church of Jesus Christ and not an attack at any individual's POV. Jcg5029 15:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
As a Church, we are can bring out our Church Lawyer into this matter if this cannot be resolved in the immediate future. The nationally registered name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ. This is not POV, this is part of a nationally registered organization. CSG 12:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay, thank you for your POV (don't care about wiki policies of WP:A. The site currently begins with a link to the disambig page so that other groups who call themselves this same name can find their site without any problems. There is no issue there -- its not like someone would get lost at all. I understand you are LDS and have a strong POV on this subject, but User:COGDEN is also a Utah Latter-day Saint and he was able to take a WP:NPOV on this issue. I suggest you do the same. You wanted sources, we cited them. "A polite, coherent complaint in cases of copyright infringement or attacks is not a "legal threat". Feel free to check out the wiki policies you keep referring to before you make threats of your own. Its just not polite. Jcg5029 19:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay the consensus was made and the site edited to the proper state by a third party. These legal threats were not made to be interpreted as such but rather and encouragement to assist in making this a simple change rather than one that is long and drawn out. We appreciate all that you have contributed to this site. This however, is how it will stay. CSG 19:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I dont know how an agreement of four to one is not a consensus. CSG 21:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Right, even though you show no evidence that other organizations use the name I agree with you, McKay. Which is why the disambig page has not disappeared and is at the very beginning of the article. It was essential to keep the disambig page there. Your speculation of 'a majority' typing in The Church of Jesus Christ for other groups is unwarrented for reasons COGDEN addressed. You have yet to provide information or wiki policies that say the official name of an organization should not be used. The fact that the disambig page remains shows that nobody is playing favorites and all groups that associate with the name are represented equally, while the official name is represented in accordance to WIKI. Jcg5029 21:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay your accusations of WP:CANVASsing are completely unfounded and ridiculous. Yes your point about legal status of a name being subjective is correct "From WP:NCON: "Subjective criteria ... should not be used to determine usage. These include: ...Does the subject have a legal right to use the name? " but it also says in WP:NCON a number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
All of those criteria are met. I still don't see what the problem is Mckay. I wish you would discontinue your accusations of meatpuppetry and so forth and WP:AGF as you so often quote to me. I am hear trying to adhere to policy while also trying to get the correct information on the page. Please stop the WP:PA and try to be civil. Going to other peoples pages and claiming a conspiracy is ridiculous. JRN 22:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay, please refrain from calling The Church of Jesus Christ the 'Bickertonite Church' as it is offensive to TCOJC's membership. I would recommend the official name for further usage.
Jcg5029 18:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Within all of the states in which The Church of Jesus Christ is currently incorporated, the only name under which this organization is incorporated is "The Church of Jesus Christ" There is no other organization which claims this exact name at all. There is no arguement. The government of the United States supports the name of this organization. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is incorporated as such in all states in which it is incorporated. They dont even have a claim to the name under debate. Not even in the state of Utah (see the state departments website) has the LDS church registered under the name of The Church of Jesus Christ. There is no debate. Popularity is simply a POV statement. If we are trying to keep POV out of this entire debate, popularity cannot be used to determine the outcome of this discussion. That the biggest flaw in your arguement. It is as simple as that. Thank you again for your effort, but again there is simply no debate here. CSG 18:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay, the sources are cited and the term is offensive. Please refrain from using offensive terms on this site. It is rude and very disrespectful. Now most people when looking for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They commonly type in mormons. That term is offensive and so the official name of that Church is used. Same situation here. If you are able to change that site's name to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) then you may have an argument. Once again please refrain from ignoring a polite request to stop using offensive names on wikipedia. It is not the place for name calling.
128.118.72.88 22:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Once again the General Trustees made the name calling very clear and the reasons were legal and an association to a person as head of the Church other than Christ. That is what I was told. 128.118.72.88 22:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The Bickertonite church is not used "much more than any other" usage of "The Church of Jesus Christ"
The Church of Jesus Christ is not used "much more than any other" usage of "The Church of Jesus Christ"
To determine the balance of these criteria, editors may find it useful to construct a table like the following:
Criterion Option 1 Option 2 1. Most commonly used name in English 2. Current undisputed official name of entity 3. Current self-identifying name of entity 1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.
The most common historical name is bickertonite, but that term is offensive. Wikipedia strictly prohibits using a compromised name like (Monongahela) or whimp. The most current undisputed official name is The Church of Jesus Christ. The current self identitfying name is The Church of Jesus Christ. Clearly here the name should then be the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ. According to wiki rules when a common name is in question, which clearly is the case here than the official name should be the one used. This is the PERFECT example of that said case.
Now if McKay still has issues than it will come to a vote. That is how wikipedia closes disputed naming issues. All editors who have participated so far on this issue will have a vote so that there can be no lobbying. Once the vote is in then the naming dispute will be over. This is following wiki guidlines on naming disputes. I hope it does not reach this point, but so far the only person in favor of McKay is, well, McKay. This is not a dictatorship. Jcg5029 15:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I second the proposal to close this section of the discussion as proposed by Jcg5029. If there is still a dispute, I suggest that we have voting from now until 12:00am EST, 27 April 2007. I would encourage all who have had a hand in working on the page to vote. Once this is done, the decision is final and we will all move on to more important issues regarding the improvement of this page.
CSG 17:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I will counter it by saying no other organization refers to itself as such compared to The Church of Jesus Christ or otherwise. The Cutlerites refer to themselves as the Cutlerites. The LDS Church refers to itself as the LDS. Outsiders will search other terms that may not be politically correct like mormon, etc. For the extremely rare person who would type in all capital letters The Church of Jesus Christ in search for another organization -- this would be unbelievably rare, there is a disambig page. So there really is no issue and McKay has no point. Any other name being used would be an offense to the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ. If you doubt this McKay, you may contact the organization through the official website, through JRN, through any of the sources now cited on this page. You are asking for information already provided. Please stop referring to The Church of Jesus Christ by any other name because it offends the membership. No more warnings. If you continue arguing both LDS and other editors thus far we will vote and the discussion will be over. Look at Latter Day Saint denomination naming section which McKay, you have already referrenced.
1) Use most common name -- shown to be offensive 2)If not, use official name.
Sounds like we know what to do, the official name will continue as used. Jcg5029 19:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
You have yet to give any evidence for another church with the same name. Once again please stop referring to the Church by other names. It is rude and offensive. You are ignoring polite requests. Jcg5029 22:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have never sanctioned the use of any name for this organization other than the proper name of The Church of Jesus Christ. The site will not be changed as per your previous reference. You are contradicting yourself now McKay! This is CSG on a different computer.
"between other churches with this name" - what other church's with this name. I have yet to see any evidence any any other church's with the official name "The Church of Jesus Christ". What it looks like to me McKay is that you dislike the change any for about a week now you have scraped up every piece of wikipolicy that you can find to try and substatiate that you don't like the change. You have stated that it was against WP:NCON and realized that was untrue, you switched your tactics and then went on further to say that you have quoted twice now that WP:NCON is not the issue here and you are now stating that it is a WP:D while there is a disambig link at the top for other church's who may use Church of Jesus Christ unofficially. You have also now stated that the onus is on us to make proof that The Church of Jesus Christ is "meant "much more than any other" usage of "The Church of Jesus Christ" while you have yet to give any other proof of Official usage of that name. How I see it is that you have some dislike of us or The Church of Jesus Christ. Wikipedia is not a place to hold or enforce vendettas McKay. Please show some proof of official usage or there will be NO change, as it is on you to show proof in order to make a change. JRN 16:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay, you must not have read this...
1. Naming policy is not always about what is most popular. I see the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity) policy as an exception. The policy says that "considered pejorative, or have negative associations, even if they are quite commonly used". 2. There isn't really a naming conflict with the Cutlerite church, because the Cutlerite church has no problem with the term Cutlerite, and if we were as you suggest to always use the most popular terminology, we would rename their article to Cutlerite. (We could not rename this church to Bickertonite, however, because some in the church find it offensive (much, I suppose, as LDS Church members don't really like Brighamite or Mormon Church). 3. I didn't say the LDS church discouraged the use of "the Church of Jesus Christ", I said they make it clear that their proper name includes "Latter-day Saints". Also, you'll note that the church press release did not capitalize the the in "the Church of Jesus Christ". The LDS Church does not intend that "the Church" and "the Church of Jesus Christ" act as synonyms for the church's proper name, independent of the church's real name. Otherwise, there'd be a naming conflict with The Church, too. 4. Google's linking to the LDS Church first is a result of the LDS Church being so bigger and more written-about, and the fact that the name of this church is a subset of the name of the LDS Church. Likewise, doing a Google search for Church of Jesus brings up the LDS Church first, even though the LDS Church never refers to itself that way, yet there are several organizations that use that name. Even a search of "The Church of" brings up the LDS Church second. Interestingly, in a search for simply "Church", the LDS Church website is the first non-Wikipedia result. COGDEN 18:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
If you are willing to remove the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from this whole "popularity" issue '3. I've said before that I'm totally willing to remove the LDS church from consideration as to the primary topic of the article The Church of Jesus Christ' - McKay , then we must move to the next closest organization to The Church of Jesus Christ. This would be The Church of Jesus Christ - Cutlerites. However, using your own arguement, due to popularity The Church of Jesus Christ maintains the title (see all of the references to Google Searches). Your arguement simply does not hold water. CSG 18:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I am saying the page is correct under every single Wiki policy as is right now. Jcg5029 04:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe, McKay you should stop referring to sources that show false information like that and then discrediting them later. It is shady. The fact that The Church of Jesus Christ is titled The Church of Jesus Christ shows dominate usage, how could you argue otherwise? We are using proper naming guidlines from
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) No other organization commonly refers to themselves as The Church of Jesus Christ other than The Church of Jesus Christ. No other organization uses this term commonly.
Jcg5029 23:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Right, Dab aka disambig they all link to the same page.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The information contained in this article, as well as several others concerning "LDS denominations" is inaccurate in it's explanation of the "crisis of succession". When Joseph Smith was murdered, the procedures by which the next prophet and president was to be ordained were already established by revelation. The organization of the First Presidency and Quorom of Twelve Apostles followed the correct process, and by inspiration and common consent the Lord directed Brigham Young to continue the work.
These articles give the false impression that Brigham Young was leading a "secret faction" and that he essentially assumed power by misleading the entire church membership into voting for him. This could not be further from the truth since Young, along with the rest of apostles, actually adhered to church doctrine and followed the correct procedures after the death of Smith.
During this time there were several men who took it upon themselves to become the next prophet in opposition to everything that had been previously organized. These men left the Church and decided to disregard the approved process. They forgot that prophets are called by God through revelation, not by the personal desires of men who covet power.
The Bickertonites, Strangites, etc. all decided to seperate themselves from the Church based on what they thought should happen rather than simply following the proper procedures.
These articles paint the apostates as heroes while Young and other church leaders are denigrated for doing what they were directed to do by Joseph Smith himself.
Thanks, I thought I was being neutral. Can you tell me how to improve?
It should be pointed out to the writer above that Brigham Young created a new church when he had all members who followed him to the Great Basin baptized, thus rejecting the authority of God restored through Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and creating a new authority based on Young.
With regard to the above, no church members were rebaptized into the Mormon church of Brigham Young vs the Mormon church of Joseph Smith. Do you have a reference for the claim?
With regards to references and disputes above, check out the LDS Church History from 1844-1860 as well as writings by Paul Peterson and others. Rebaptism is an undisputed LDS Historical fact, even though many Utah Mormons are unaware. With regards to earlier historical issues from 1844 listen to the facts. Brigham Young was not placed in the position of the First Presidency until 1847. It seems odd he would claim any sense of leadership of the Church before that. As to Rigdon's true leadership, he was the only member of the Church who was still in the leadership position of the First Presidency -- which had ALWAYS governed the Church for the past fifteen years. Young took a less than majority vote (5) to replace Rigdon -- Rigdon's claim was to be a 'governor' for the Church during this time period of crisis until order could be restored. The Church requires a majority vote from the 12. If you don't believe me check out Church history and Rigdon's biography. Either way clearly The Church of Jesus Christ(Bickertonites) have as fair a claim as any other organization.
The article states, "Church members always greet each other with a "holy kiss" (following New Testament precedents)."
A holy kiss is an interesting concept and should be explained in more detail? What does it entail? A simple kiss on the cheek? An Eastern kiss? More detail on this would be nice to explain. Also a reference to the D&C on washing of the feet (or something similar) would be useful cross referece.
Speaking of the D&C, what are the Bickertonites scriptures? is it just the bible and book of mormon?
(Speaking as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ headquarters Monongahela PA, The scriptures that are accepted are the Bible, and Book of Mormon. None of Joseph Smiths other writings are accepted.)
"Hymns through a single sister" The entire last paragraph of the hyms section needs to be re-written - it is difficult to understand. Who is the single member? Is she married? Is it the same she as is referenced in the next sentence? Etc.
Just a few suggestions to make this better. - Visorstuff 23:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
The assertion that the procedures were already in place for selection of the next President of the LDS Church after Joseph Smith is entirely wrong. Eeven after John Taylor (the 3rd President) the succsssion order had not yet been established and it was nearly 3 years before Wilford Woodruff becaame the 4th President and it was with his Presidency that the succession order was established forever for the future of the Salt Lake City based LDS Church.
I realize that when one deals with religion it is very difficult to remove a point of view, but the quote from the article "The songs are quite beautiful and filled with the Spirit of God" definitely is not NPOV.
Agreed. This article in no way shape or form follows the NPOV Policy of Wikipedia. The article mentions how elders aren't called by "Father" or "Reverend" as they are volunteers and not paid (as according to Scripture)! I don't think it is an article's purpose to tell the reader what is and isn't scriptual. There are changes that are easy to make such as replacing the "as according to Scripture" with "as according to the scriptual interpretations of the Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite).",etc
"as according to scripture" is a NPOV. We are not interpreting scripture just merely stating what scriptures says. When Christ said "freely ye have received, freely give." He is clearly showing that payment for the Gospel was not in Christ's holy plan. When he said "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven", Christ clearly states to call no man your father. These are tenants of our beliefs founded upon scripture, not interpreted how we want to. Thus, statements "according to scripture" are NPOV.
and just for any future references there scriptures are found in the KJV as that is the version used in The Church of Jesus Christ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JNicklow ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
Excuse me, but IN CONTEXT, it should be clear to anyone with even the smallest mental capacity that this article is about The Church of Jesus Christ and its position on points that separate it from the rest of the Restoration Churches in the Latter Day Saint grouping.
I dispute this comment:
"When Joseph Smith was murdered, the procedures by which the next prophet and president was to be ordained were already established by revelation. The organization of the First Presidency and Quorom of Twelve Apostles followed the correct process, and by inspiration and common consent the Lord directed Brigham Young to continue the work."
This is NOT borne out by the facts. There was confusion and Smith left a number of possible succession models behind. There was no "one" procedure in place, but several possible succession models.
Not only was there no procedure in place but such did not happen until after the death of John Taylor, the 3rd President of the Salt Lake City LDS, when it went nearly 3 years before it was decided up Wilford Woodruff. It was not until this time that the procedure to be used forever forward in the Church was approved and sustained by the Twelve.
There was no policy that the Second Quorum succeed the First. That was the position taken by the faction of the church that eventually followed Young to Utah.
Since Sidney Rigdon was STILL alive, his position was as valid as any. You have to remember that what we see now as "obvious" was not so obvious back then.
The story about Sidney Rigdon being rejected by Smith has been shown to be an oft-repeated myth that was constructed later AFTER Rigdon and the Twelve went their separate ways. See Samuel Taylor's "Auntie Mormon" recap of the actual events, among others. So, while TRUE that the relationship between Smith and Rigdon was very strained at the time of Smith's death, it was not so bad that Ridgon was not part of the First Presidency as some haver falsified.
Brigham Young may well have felt right in his position and he did carry the vote of the majority as the Second Quorum was sustained in their calling. Rigdon's suggestion that he be appointed as guardian was rejected, partially on the strength that Young advanced on no one being able to replace the Prophet.
Rigdon was later excommunicted and he, in turn, excommunicated the Twelve.
At the time, he was denouncing the Twelve for POLYGAMY and POLYANDRY and he was called a liar and an apostate for doing so. Recall that a faction in the Church was practicing these at a time that BOTH the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon SPECIFICALLY denounced these abberations.
Young later re-instituted a First Presidency under less-than-full quorum conditions.
History has also shown that the LDS have been by far the most successful branch of this movement. That does not, however, give it exclusive rights to the claims of the movement!
"These articles give the false impression that Brigham Young was leading a "secret faction" and that he essentially assumed power by misleading the entire church membership into voting for him."
I think Brigham Young was an able and skilled leader. He believed in what he was doing. He exhibited the Alpha Male behaviour at times in doing so.
He was NOT universally accepted by all in the original church.
You Utah LDS have a right to claim to be PART of that history, but so do the others of us. We are NOT your "apostates" any more than YOU are ours. All of the resulting churches at the dispersion of the saints at Nauvoo have a claim to this legacy!
"This could not be further from the truth since Young, along with the rest of apostles, actually adhered to church doctrine and followed the correct procedures after the death of Smith."
I beg to differ.
The point that has been obscured by revisonist history is that it was but ONE of MANY possible "church doctrine and ... correct procedures" Smith left behind. Michael Quinn, formerly of your church, wrote an article that defined the 8 (as I recall) models of succssion Smith left behind. You may want to read it.
"During this time there were several men who took it upon themselves to become the next prophet in opposition to everything that had been previously organized. These men left the Church and decided to disregard the approved process. They forgot that prophets are called by God through revelation, not by the personal desires of men who covet power."
Now who is slipping in OPINION as fact? The above is the Utah LDS view. If we "Bickertonites" agreed with you, there would not be an issue, right?
"The Bickertonites, Strangites, etc. all decided to seperate themselves from the Church based on what they thought should happen rather than simply following the proper procedures."
Again easily demonstratable as OPINION.
"These articles paint the apostates as heroes while Young and other church leaders are denigrated for doing what they were directed to do by Joseph Smith himself."
Why do so many of you Utah LDS like the "A" word??? Is that your BEST answer to the legitimacy of other Restoration Christians? Why can't you just love us and let us love you back?
We were together for a mere 14 years and have existed APART for 161 years. We have ALL survived and we have disproven each other's "dire" predicitions of each other's failure.
Can we move on?
Why can't we do as Community of Christ President Steve Veazey suggests towards other Restoration churches and "be good neighbors"? Part of that process would eliminate the use of the "A" word and the ability to accept that there ARE legitimate reasons for other latter day saints to follow variant positions without name-calling. ..
In both Bibilical and Book of Mormon scripture, it is clearly outlined that "by their fruits, ye shall know them". The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints clearly fits the description, and any break off from the true restored church of God, separates itself from living revelation.
Whoever proposed this merge doesn't have a clue about this Church or what it represents. Yes, William Bickerton converted to Mormonism under Sidney Ridgon's influence, but Bickerton broke with Rigdon in 1846. The Ridgonite Church went on to other parts of Pennsylvania while Bickerton remained behind in Monongahela. Bickerton was largely a self-taught (autodidact) Mormon and founded his own Church completely independent of Rigdon. Therefore, this suggested merge is ridiculous. The two Churches are entirely separate and independent of each other. StudierMalMarburg 16:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Rename
Sorry for any confusion but the church's official name is "The Church of Jesus Christ" and not "Church of Jesus Christ" so I had to add "The" to the name according to WP:NCD. Thanks
McKay, While I understand the need for linked material you are obviously missing the point. First of all the pages you are trying to link are POV pages. The difficulty with that time period is that there is no sure understanding of exactly what was and what happened. Each restoration group has different claims. The linked pages are POV pages that only show the LDS POV. That is NOT concurrent with TCOJC beliefs and therefore does not explain to readers what we mean when we use those terms. You cannot link the pages unless the page contains the beliefs of the TCOJC accoring to WP:UNDUE you must give some weight to all sides of the issue. So untill there is information on the linked page to our beliefs you cannot link the page. So I am removing the link to all sides can be satisfied. JRN 17:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
You continue to keep editing this page regardless of what you edit is correct or not. I didn't ask you to stop editing altogether, I merely asked you to stop editing UNTIL you became more familiar with The Church so that you didn't keep making mistakes. Your current revision of the stand that we are not affiliated with any other churches will be reverted.
Sidney Rigdon was excommunicated by the LDS church therefore severing all ties and affiliations to the church. As he was not affiliated with the LDS from 1845 on anything he did after that is not affiliated with the LDS church. Although we share 14 years of history from 1830-1844 after that point there is no more affiliation because of Rigdon's excommunication. Please do not continue to make edits that are unsubstatiated. If you do not know what you are talking about then please don't make changes.
205.149.71.152 18:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
can you explain what is meant by the line "It claims true succession from all other Latter Day Saint sects." I think "secession" might be closer, but it can't have seceded from all of the sects, just the original sect. I'm confused by that statement. McKay 22:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonites) does not claim to have left anything. It claims to be the Church as restored by Joseph Smith, jr. According to The Church, all other Latter Day Saint movements broke off from The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite). Here in lies your lack of understanding to the previous topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcg5029 ( talk • contribs)
SESmith has made changes to the page that I totally approve of. I like the version that's up there. His addition of "officially" really helps the point I was trying to get across. Do we have any other problems with the header as is? McKay 05:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
The addition of "official" makes no change in meaning and is pretty much a ticky-tack change but if it shuts up McKay then I'm fine with it. 205.149.72.72 12:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
As it stands now, if this page is to stay in the "latter day saint movement" wikiproject then there needs to be major revisions and clarifications within the page. There is very little similar between the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ and other restorationist churches. Beliefs on Faith and Doctrine, Priesthood, Texts, and many others need to be more fully explained and clarified so as to not confuse the majortiy opinion of other restoration groups with those of The Church of Jesus Christ. I am going to try to make the additions and clarfications and I hope that everyone can work with me in adhering to wiki policy and keeping a NPOV. I just ask that instead of blanking my revisions you would make suggestions for corrections to adhere to policy pn the talk page. I am not a programmer and will undoubtedly need help. Your patience will be appreciated. JRN 13:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay I think the initial page looks really good. Are we able now to remove the trashy symbol above?
Also there are two huge issues that should be addressed. When a person types in The Church of Jesus Christ on Wiki, they are already relinked to the Utah Mormon's website. Since this type has just as much relevance for our site, shouldn't search results be displayed?
The more important issue is The Church of Jesus Christ with Headquarters in Monongahela, PA's name on WIKI. I understand and am content that many within the Restoration and others refer to us a Bickertonites. It should therefore be in bold and in the first paragraph, but shouldn't the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ be the site name??? I understand this will mean changing links and overall a large task, but I feel it is important to properly represent the Church. I am open to thoughts on the subject and know this is not a simple 'change the name' task. JCG5029
I agree with McKay. Placing a direct link only creates the same problem for a dozen other organizations. The way the search results show now are very relevant. So my question is slightly different, would it be possible to place the Church's official name first -- followed by the Bickertonite name and discussion? People who may at first think of The Church as 'Bickertonites' and click on the links would then see the official name clarifying the issue, but still understand this was the same Church they were researching...
JRN 16:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, Feel free to keep working on later sections, but I'm going to request a little more work on the head section. While I think the content is appropriate, I think we're going to need some additional sources for the verifiability of the intro paragraph. Don't misread the tags I'll be putting on the intro paragraph as malicious, I think the content is fine, I'm just trying to adhere to another core wikipedia policy of WP:Attributability. So feel free to leave the content present, just get the material sourced. McKay 16:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that the "tree link" added to the bottom of the page is
I think it should be removed JRN 22:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree and removed it. It would probably look nice at the Latter Day Saint movement page. Maybe whoever added it should place it there. Jcg5029 23:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There is another issue that should be addressed here concerning pictures attempting to portray the Latter Day Saint movement. The box on the stated issue contains a picture of Joseph Smith kneeling before two figures. This is a picture describing accounts by Joseph Smith and others. I am not here to argue with the validity of those writings. There are other accounts found written by the hand of Joseph Smith -- see Personal Writings by Joseph Smith claiming only one personage (that of Christ). This is a hotly debated topic for many within the Restoration and Latter Day Saint movements. Such a hot issue should not blatently be on display showcasing one (the Utah Mormon) opinion of the subject. That would be a POV issue, not that I am an expert on the WIKI policy. Clearly the controversy should not favor one side and all groups should be treated with equal respect. Maybe no picture should be there, or some other picture like one with different group's printed Book of Mormon. That way all groups are represented in a non offensive way within the box on the right hand side of the Links to the Latter Day Saint movement. Jcg5029 23:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is nothing being shown past scriptures? Why did the category box disappear??
I have re-added links to those other articles. If you note, all of those links actually have sections covering Bickertonite structure..., with the one exception of First Presidency which isn't referring to Bickertonite beliefs, but is referring to the historical position of Brigham Younch, of which First Presidency covers clearly. McKay 17:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
JNicklow just made a change to the article. I'm fine with such a change, but we have discussed approving changes before they are made. Can we agree to do this?
McKay 18:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought all discussion was closed and accepted on the first paragraph??? Unless somebody wants to add something to the discussion DO NOT change a statement without a clear reason. That discussion had ended before please to NOT change entire statement on this site without listing a reason SESMITH or you will be guilty of vandalism on this site. When discussion ends do not wait a week to rechange your opinion on this site. Thank you. Jcg5029 22:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that the sections on "Joseph Smith" and "Role of The Church" are out of place. I think maybe they should be moved toward the beginning of the page. I think it breaks up the flow of the page. What does everyone else think? JRN 15:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree flow is very important for The Church of Jesus Christ's site and changes could always be made to improve. Jcg5029 17:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I took out the sentence that everyone has been editing and re-editing and insert one that was clear and concise on the subject of affiliation. At the point of the succession The Church believes that Rigdon was correct in what he did and thus his excommunication ended the affiliation between TCOJC and other latter day saint denominations. I believe the statement is NPOV but please feel free to change some wording if you feel free, but I would ask to leave a message explaining why since this sentence has been so hotly debated recently. Thank you JRN 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There has been a question raised several times, by me and others, and I would like it answered. Though it's been asked, I think they've been skirting about the issue. I don't think we can get everything resolved until it has been answered. So I'm making a special post just to ask it, Does The Church of Jesus Christ with Headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania or it's members believe they are a part of the Latter Day Saint movement? We've seen links to that be removed on several occasions. It appears as if they resent the designation. Is that where some of the problems are coming from? McKay 16:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it necessary to include the total membership of The Church? It is not a piece of information that is widely published and is not one that I think we are going to be able to cite. Let me know what you think. CSG 12:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure, the problem is many of the current publications are out of date. When a group is small like The Church of Jesus Christ and they are growing at a rapid rate like they are -- it makes official number difficult to remain up to date. General Church Conference minutes might contain totals, but somehow I doubt it and doubt their useage on this site would be completely appropriate. Jcg5029 17:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Then would it be appropriate to eliminate that piece of data as it cannot be correctly cited and would be difficult to keep accurate? CSG 18:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought changing the name to The Church of Jesus Christ (Monongahela) was good as it incorporated the legal name of The Church. Also the Bickertonite part was covered in the opening paragraph. Can we come to a concensus before making anymore changes to the name so that we can limit reverts and arguements? JRN 12:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, SESmith, I had never looked at the Latter Day Saint naming conventions site before. Generally I believe its goals are to properly represent all Latter Day Saint movement groups. Lets start out with the first guidline...
1) Use accurate titles and terms.
2)Present titles and terms in a neutral point of view; avoid "endorsing" or "opposing" the views of any church.
Conclusions??? Obviously this is a very serious issue. None of us here desire TCOJC to be misrepresented at Wikipedia. Might I also say that most of the world considers the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as mormons, but that title is not officially the name of the site or within the name. Neither is Bickertonite within TCOJC's name. Now, since the majority of individuals within the Latter Day Saint movement do refer to TCOJC as Bickertonites, why don't the editors come to the obvious conclusion. That is the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ with Headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania -- SHOULD BE THE TITLE of this Church's site. Now because so many refer to them as Bickertonites then YES please leave links to The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) that redirect to the proper site. No person would be confused as to what group they were viewing and, in fact, the people may just learn the proper name of the Church and this form of misrepresentation might begin to be resolved.
What does everyone think?? Jcg5029 15:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
15:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC) Jcg5029
Now that the page has been moved, I have a question. Why the "dash" (-) in the name? Does the full legal name use the dash? If not, should it not be eliminated? Thanks. -
SESmith 22:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I had tried to leave it without the dash but initially I was not allowed, it seemed the most logical alternative. Jcg5029 23:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Our general conclusion was that TCOJC should be titled here with its official name. I assumed the official name was The Church of Jesus Christ with Headquarters in Monongahela, PA. This was because this WIKI site said that. I have just made a phone call to the General Church Trustee of The Church of Jesus Christ -- Joe Ross. The official name of this church is The Church of Jesus Christ. That is federally recognized and approved, US government stamped. So, in order to properly represent this Church with the official name. There have been legal attempts by the Utah Latter Day Saints to not allow The Church of Jesus Christ to keep the name. No attempt has succeeded and the official name remains The Church of Jesus Christ. I will fix the errors within this document and I recommend the name The Church of Jesus Christ because that is the legal name of this church, like it or not.
Jcg5029 00:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I just feel to remind everyone that this is to protect the membership of The Church of Jesus Christ and not an attack at any individual's POV. Jcg5029 15:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
As a Church, we are can bring out our Church Lawyer into this matter if this cannot be resolved in the immediate future. The nationally registered name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ. This is not POV, this is part of a nationally registered organization. CSG 12:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay, thank you for your POV (don't care about wiki policies of WP:A. The site currently begins with a link to the disambig page so that other groups who call themselves this same name can find their site without any problems. There is no issue there -- its not like someone would get lost at all. I understand you are LDS and have a strong POV on this subject, but User:COGDEN is also a Utah Latter-day Saint and he was able to take a WP:NPOV on this issue. I suggest you do the same. You wanted sources, we cited them. "A polite, coherent complaint in cases of copyright infringement or attacks is not a "legal threat". Feel free to check out the wiki policies you keep referring to before you make threats of your own. Its just not polite. Jcg5029 19:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay the consensus was made and the site edited to the proper state by a third party. These legal threats were not made to be interpreted as such but rather and encouragement to assist in making this a simple change rather than one that is long and drawn out. We appreciate all that you have contributed to this site. This however, is how it will stay. CSG 19:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I dont know how an agreement of four to one is not a consensus. CSG 21:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Right, even though you show no evidence that other organizations use the name I agree with you, McKay. Which is why the disambig page has not disappeared and is at the very beginning of the article. It was essential to keep the disambig page there. Your speculation of 'a majority' typing in The Church of Jesus Christ for other groups is unwarrented for reasons COGDEN addressed. You have yet to provide information or wiki policies that say the official name of an organization should not be used. The fact that the disambig page remains shows that nobody is playing favorites and all groups that associate with the name are represented equally, while the official name is represented in accordance to WIKI. Jcg5029 21:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay your accusations of WP:CANVASsing are completely unfounded and ridiculous. Yes your point about legal status of a name being subjective is correct "From WP:NCON: "Subjective criteria ... should not be used to determine usage. These include: ...Does the subject have a legal right to use the name? " but it also says in WP:NCON a number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
All of those criteria are met. I still don't see what the problem is Mckay. I wish you would discontinue your accusations of meatpuppetry and so forth and WP:AGF as you so often quote to me. I am hear trying to adhere to policy while also trying to get the correct information on the page. Please stop the WP:PA and try to be civil. Going to other peoples pages and claiming a conspiracy is ridiculous. JRN 22:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay, please refrain from calling The Church of Jesus Christ the 'Bickertonite Church' as it is offensive to TCOJC's membership. I would recommend the official name for further usage.
Jcg5029 18:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Within all of the states in which The Church of Jesus Christ is currently incorporated, the only name under which this organization is incorporated is "The Church of Jesus Christ" There is no other organization which claims this exact name at all. There is no arguement. The government of the United States supports the name of this organization. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is incorporated as such in all states in which it is incorporated. They dont even have a claim to the name under debate. Not even in the state of Utah (see the state departments website) has the LDS church registered under the name of The Church of Jesus Christ. There is no debate. Popularity is simply a POV statement. If we are trying to keep POV out of this entire debate, popularity cannot be used to determine the outcome of this discussion. That the biggest flaw in your arguement. It is as simple as that. Thank you again for your effort, but again there is simply no debate here. CSG 18:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay, the sources are cited and the term is offensive. Please refrain from using offensive terms on this site. It is rude and very disrespectful. Now most people when looking for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They commonly type in mormons. That term is offensive and so the official name of that Church is used. Same situation here. If you are able to change that site's name to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) then you may have an argument. Once again please refrain from ignoring a polite request to stop using offensive names on wikipedia. It is not the place for name calling.
128.118.72.88 22:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Once again the General Trustees made the name calling very clear and the reasons were legal and an association to a person as head of the Church other than Christ. That is what I was told. 128.118.72.88 22:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The Bickertonite church is not used "much more than any other" usage of "The Church of Jesus Christ"
The Church of Jesus Christ is not used "much more than any other" usage of "The Church of Jesus Christ"
To determine the balance of these criteria, editors may find it useful to construct a table like the following:
Criterion Option 1 Option 2 1. Most commonly used name in English 2. Current undisputed official name of entity 3. Current self-identifying name of entity 1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.
The most common historical name is bickertonite, but that term is offensive. Wikipedia strictly prohibits using a compromised name like (Monongahela) or whimp. The most current undisputed official name is The Church of Jesus Christ. The current self identitfying name is The Church of Jesus Christ. Clearly here the name should then be the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ. According to wiki rules when a common name is in question, which clearly is the case here than the official name should be the one used. This is the PERFECT example of that said case.
Now if McKay still has issues than it will come to a vote. That is how wikipedia closes disputed naming issues. All editors who have participated so far on this issue will have a vote so that there can be no lobbying. Once the vote is in then the naming dispute will be over. This is following wiki guidlines on naming disputes. I hope it does not reach this point, but so far the only person in favor of McKay is, well, McKay. This is not a dictatorship. Jcg5029 15:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I second the proposal to close this section of the discussion as proposed by Jcg5029. If there is still a dispute, I suggest that we have voting from now until 12:00am EST, 27 April 2007. I would encourage all who have had a hand in working on the page to vote. Once this is done, the decision is final and we will all move on to more important issues regarding the improvement of this page.
CSG 17:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I will counter it by saying no other organization refers to itself as such compared to The Church of Jesus Christ or otherwise. The Cutlerites refer to themselves as the Cutlerites. The LDS Church refers to itself as the LDS. Outsiders will search other terms that may not be politically correct like mormon, etc. For the extremely rare person who would type in all capital letters The Church of Jesus Christ in search for another organization -- this would be unbelievably rare, there is a disambig page. So there really is no issue and McKay has no point. Any other name being used would be an offense to the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ. If you doubt this McKay, you may contact the organization through the official website, through JRN, through any of the sources now cited on this page. You are asking for information already provided. Please stop referring to The Church of Jesus Christ by any other name because it offends the membership. No more warnings. If you continue arguing both LDS and other editors thus far we will vote and the discussion will be over. Look at Latter Day Saint denomination naming section which McKay, you have already referrenced.
1) Use most common name -- shown to be offensive 2)If not, use official name.
Sounds like we know what to do, the official name will continue as used. Jcg5029 19:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
You have yet to give any evidence for another church with the same name. Once again please stop referring to the Church by other names. It is rude and offensive. You are ignoring polite requests. Jcg5029 22:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have never sanctioned the use of any name for this organization other than the proper name of The Church of Jesus Christ. The site will not be changed as per your previous reference. You are contradicting yourself now McKay! This is CSG on a different computer.
"between other churches with this name" - what other church's with this name. I have yet to see any evidence any any other church's with the official name "The Church of Jesus Christ". What it looks like to me McKay is that you dislike the change any for about a week now you have scraped up every piece of wikipolicy that you can find to try and substatiate that you don't like the change. You have stated that it was against WP:NCON and realized that was untrue, you switched your tactics and then went on further to say that you have quoted twice now that WP:NCON is not the issue here and you are now stating that it is a WP:D while there is a disambig link at the top for other church's who may use Church of Jesus Christ unofficially. You have also now stated that the onus is on us to make proof that The Church of Jesus Christ is "meant "much more than any other" usage of "The Church of Jesus Christ" while you have yet to give any other proof of Official usage of that name. How I see it is that you have some dislike of us or The Church of Jesus Christ. Wikipedia is not a place to hold or enforce vendettas McKay. Please show some proof of official usage or there will be NO change, as it is on you to show proof in order to make a change. JRN 16:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
McKay, you must not have read this...
1. Naming policy is not always about what is most popular. I see the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity) policy as an exception. The policy says that "considered pejorative, or have negative associations, even if they are quite commonly used". 2. There isn't really a naming conflict with the Cutlerite church, because the Cutlerite church has no problem with the term Cutlerite, and if we were as you suggest to always use the most popular terminology, we would rename their article to Cutlerite. (We could not rename this church to Bickertonite, however, because some in the church find it offensive (much, I suppose, as LDS Church members don't really like Brighamite or Mormon Church). 3. I didn't say the LDS church discouraged the use of "the Church of Jesus Christ", I said they make it clear that their proper name includes "Latter-day Saints". Also, you'll note that the church press release did not capitalize the the in "the Church of Jesus Christ". The LDS Church does not intend that "the Church" and "the Church of Jesus Christ" act as synonyms for the church's proper name, independent of the church's real name. Otherwise, there'd be a naming conflict with The Church, too. 4. Google's linking to the LDS Church first is a result of the LDS Church being so bigger and more written-about, and the fact that the name of this church is a subset of the name of the LDS Church. Likewise, doing a Google search for Church of Jesus brings up the LDS Church first, even though the LDS Church never refers to itself that way, yet there are several organizations that use that name. Even a search of "The Church of" brings up the LDS Church second. Interestingly, in a search for simply "Church", the LDS Church website is the first non-Wikipedia result. COGDEN 18:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
If you are willing to remove the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from this whole "popularity" issue '3. I've said before that I'm totally willing to remove the LDS church from consideration as to the primary topic of the article The Church of Jesus Christ' - McKay , then we must move to the next closest organization to The Church of Jesus Christ. This would be The Church of Jesus Christ - Cutlerites. However, using your own arguement, due to popularity The Church of Jesus Christ maintains the title (see all of the references to Google Searches). Your arguement simply does not hold water. CSG 18:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I am saying the page is correct under every single Wiki policy as is right now. Jcg5029 04:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe, McKay you should stop referring to sources that show false information like that and then discrediting them later. It is shady. The fact that The Church of Jesus Christ is titled The Church of Jesus Christ shows dominate usage, how could you argue otherwise? We are using proper naming guidlines from
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) No other organization commonly refers to themselves as The Church of Jesus Christ other than The Church of Jesus Christ. No other organization uses this term commonly.
Jcg5029 23:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Right, Dab aka disambig they all link to the same page.