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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of California (province) was copied or moved into The Californias with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The Californias, or "Province of the Californias", or Spanish: Las Californias, "Provincia de las Californias" (1768–1804), was the northwestern-most area of the Viceroyalty of New Spain.
This statement is unsourced, because such a thing never existed. This article is about something somebody made up, who then cut and pasted information from other articles to make it look legitimate. The whole topic is unsourced because it did not exist. Wyeson 11:11, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
This article basically reproduces what is already said in the Las Californias article. "Las Californias" is the term I've seen used in Spanish for the territory/province before it's division in 1804 into Alta and Baja California, so I recommend that this article be merged into that article. Both articles do need more specifics, especially on the exact nature of the administration that they had, and the general history, such as the missions (I realize there is a separate article on that, but a quick summary would be in order). When were intendancies established? What was their relation to the Provinicas Internas Commandancy General? Etc. TriniMuñoz ( talk) 05:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
In doing the "What links here function" I've noticed that most authors of California, and even U.S.-related articles, overwhelmingly have chosen to Wikilink the original "Las Californias" article, not the oddly named "California (province)." Just something to consider. TriniMuñoz ( talk) 20:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
This article confuses two different things, a temporary title held by Gov. Portolá for one year and the later division of Baja California in 1804. The article creates a country that never existed. Baja and Alta always had separate governors and capitals from the beginning of Alta in 1768. This was quite an entertaining fiction, though. Wyeson 04:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
first, I commend editor TriniMuñoz for working on this article - it needs a lot of help. I think, however, that several statements in the article are incorrect and/or need reliable citations to back them up. We can discuss these questions here but, until they are resolved, I'm putting a "disputed" template at the top of the page. Some issues just in the first two sections:
That last edit was, obviously, mine. I did not source is because it was a quick edit—I will do more edits later on—and because it is mentioned both in the article on the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and in the text of the treaty itself: Article V, "The southern and western limits of New Mexico, mentioned in the article, are those laid down in the map entitled 'Map of the United Mexican States, as organized and defined by various acts of the Congress of said republic, and constructed according to the best authorities. Revised edition. Published at New York, in 1847, by J. Disturnell,' of which map a copy is added to this treaty, bearing the signatures and seals of the undersigned Plenipotentiaries." It is clear that as the 19th century progressed and as other nations became interested in Mexico's northern territories—the US had already made an offer to buy California—Mexico referred to the entire north as "Alta California" and "New Mexico," so yes, by the Mexican-American War it referred to areas east of the Sierra Nevada. The negotiators used this map, because it was the best one they could use that was also readily available. It did not necessarily reflect official lines, save perhaps with regard to New Mexico. Being a much older and established province, it is likely that a western border was defined by statute, but I have not seen any. Alta California's was not, so it could be projected out to New Mexico, when the area needed to be addressed. However, I don't think that based on this map one can retroactively say that Alta California was always seen to include these areas by the Spanish and early Mexican authorities, a state which is reflected in the confused state of the various maps. The Colorado River served as a defining geographic border, if not a political one, ever since Eusebio Kino established that California was not an island. TriniMuñoz ( talk) 01:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Unless a reliable source can be added to back up that language, I propose to remove it. WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I propose to correct those statements as noted above. WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Alvarado is not a reliable source (see Dispute #5) WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
The same is true of the Bandini document, so the footnoting of Bandini's statement is appropriate. The Alvarado statement (a translation must be retrieved from a reliable source) should be treated the same way. Better yet would be to move the Alvarado statement to the Portolà article - it's not important to this article (especially because its accuracy is disputed). WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
This dispute was resolved to my satisfaction by the "Revision as of 06:49, 14 August 2014". WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
The "Revision as of 22:22, 12 August 2014" added the text above, and removed the following paragraph, with the explanatory note "(removed original research and historical fictions)". I believe the earlier version to be accurate, supported by the linked article:
"Administratively, the Province was part of the Commandancy General of the Provincias Internas in the Viceroyalty of New Spain. Las Californias was a single province from 1768 to 1804, when the Alta California (Upper California) province/territory was created."
I propose a return to that language. WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I've attempted to clean up all the disputed points in the "Revision as of 06:59, 22 August 2014". Also, I replaced one of the 3 maps - one that seemed redundant - with a 1763 map. If there are further disagreements about any of this, let's work it out here rather than getting into any more edit wars. WCCasey ( talk) 07:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
This page should not be speedy deleted as pure vandalism or a blatant hoax, because verifiable, reliable sources exist. The article contains many links to other articles containing corroborating information. Attempts to add citations and/or discuss the alleged problems have been repeatedly reverted by User:Wighson. WCCasey ( talk) 07:20, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
I have restored a subsection of the article than can be obviously traced to reliable sources. Specifically, a Google Books search for Las Californias does reveal the existence of a province with that name in the late-18th century, and therefore I believe it's possible to write an encyclopedia topic on this article. The disputes above, and the large quantity of unsourced text in the original article, made me sceptical that such a topic genuinely existed, but provided somebody with a good knowledge of American history and Spanish comes along, I am happy to assume good faith that the article can be repaired. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:24, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
It seems more appropriate for the article to be named "Las Californias" with the English translation parenthesized, rather than the other way around. Thoughts? UpdateNerd ( talk) 04:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. EdJohnston ( talk) 05:04, 1 February 2020 (UTC) EdJohnston ( talk) 05:04, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
The Californias → Californias – WP:THE – definite article not capitalized in modern sources – no need to keep disambiguation page, as this is the only entry. Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 01:29, 22 January 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BegbertBiggs ( talk) 11:06, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of California (province) was copied or moved into The Californias with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The Californias, or "Province of the Californias", or Spanish: Las Californias, "Provincia de las Californias" (1768–1804), was the northwestern-most area of the Viceroyalty of New Spain.
This statement is unsourced, because such a thing never existed. This article is about something somebody made up, who then cut and pasted information from other articles to make it look legitimate. The whole topic is unsourced because it did not exist. Wyeson 11:11, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
This article basically reproduces what is already said in the Las Californias article. "Las Californias" is the term I've seen used in Spanish for the territory/province before it's division in 1804 into Alta and Baja California, so I recommend that this article be merged into that article. Both articles do need more specifics, especially on the exact nature of the administration that they had, and the general history, such as the missions (I realize there is a separate article on that, but a quick summary would be in order). When were intendancies established? What was their relation to the Provinicas Internas Commandancy General? Etc. TriniMuñoz ( talk) 05:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
In doing the "What links here function" I've noticed that most authors of California, and even U.S.-related articles, overwhelmingly have chosen to Wikilink the original "Las Californias" article, not the oddly named "California (province)." Just something to consider. TriniMuñoz ( talk) 20:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
This article confuses two different things, a temporary title held by Gov. Portolá for one year and the later division of Baja California in 1804. The article creates a country that never existed. Baja and Alta always had separate governors and capitals from the beginning of Alta in 1768. This was quite an entertaining fiction, though. Wyeson 04:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
first, I commend editor TriniMuñoz for working on this article - it needs a lot of help. I think, however, that several statements in the article are incorrect and/or need reliable citations to back them up. We can discuss these questions here but, until they are resolved, I'm putting a "disputed" template at the top of the page. Some issues just in the first two sections:
That last edit was, obviously, mine. I did not source is because it was a quick edit—I will do more edits later on—and because it is mentioned both in the article on the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and in the text of the treaty itself: Article V, "The southern and western limits of New Mexico, mentioned in the article, are those laid down in the map entitled 'Map of the United Mexican States, as organized and defined by various acts of the Congress of said republic, and constructed according to the best authorities. Revised edition. Published at New York, in 1847, by J. Disturnell,' of which map a copy is added to this treaty, bearing the signatures and seals of the undersigned Plenipotentiaries." It is clear that as the 19th century progressed and as other nations became interested in Mexico's northern territories—the US had already made an offer to buy California—Mexico referred to the entire north as "Alta California" and "New Mexico," so yes, by the Mexican-American War it referred to areas east of the Sierra Nevada. The negotiators used this map, because it was the best one they could use that was also readily available. It did not necessarily reflect official lines, save perhaps with regard to New Mexico. Being a much older and established province, it is likely that a western border was defined by statute, but I have not seen any. Alta California's was not, so it could be projected out to New Mexico, when the area needed to be addressed. However, I don't think that based on this map one can retroactively say that Alta California was always seen to include these areas by the Spanish and early Mexican authorities, a state which is reflected in the confused state of the various maps. The Colorado River served as a defining geographic border, if not a political one, ever since Eusebio Kino established that California was not an island. TriniMuñoz ( talk) 01:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Unless a reliable source can be added to back up that language, I propose to remove it. WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I propose to correct those statements as noted above. WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Alvarado is not a reliable source (see Dispute #5) WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
The same is true of the Bandini document, so the footnoting of Bandini's statement is appropriate. The Alvarado statement (a translation must be retrieved from a reliable source) should be treated the same way. Better yet would be to move the Alvarado statement to the Portolà article - it's not important to this article (especially because its accuracy is disputed). WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
This dispute was resolved to my satisfaction by the "Revision as of 06:49, 14 August 2014". WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
The "Revision as of 22:22, 12 August 2014" added the text above, and removed the following paragraph, with the explanatory note "(removed original research and historical fictions)". I believe the earlier version to be accurate, supported by the linked article:
"Administratively, the Province was part of the Commandancy General of the Provincias Internas in the Viceroyalty of New Spain. Las Californias was a single province from 1768 to 1804, when the Alta California (Upper California) province/territory was created."
I propose a return to that language. WCCasey ( talk) 04:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I've attempted to clean up all the disputed points in the "Revision as of 06:59, 22 August 2014". Also, I replaced one of the 3 maps - one that seemed redundant - with a 1763 map. If there are further disagreements about any of this, let's work it out here rather than getting into any more edit wars. WCCasey ( talk) 07:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
This page should not be speedy deleted as pure vandalism or a blatant hoax, because verifiable, reliable sources exist. The article contains many links to other articles containing corroborating information. Attempts to add citations and/or discuss the alleged problems have been repeatedly reverted by User:Wighson. WCCasey ( talk) 07:20, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
I have restored a subsection of the article than can be obviously traced to reliable sources. Specifically, a Google Books search for Las Californias does reveal the existence of a province with that name in the late-18th century, and therefore I believe it's possible to write an encyclopedia topic on this article. The disputes above, and the large quantity of unsourced text in the original article, made me sceptical that such a topic genuinely existed, but provided somebody with a good knowledge of American history and Spanish comes along, I am happy to assume good faith that the article can be repaired. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:24, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
It seems more appropriate for the article to be named "Las Californias" with the English translation parenthesized, rather than the other way around. Thoughts? UpdateNerd ( talk) 04:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. EdJohnston ( talk) 05:04, 1 February 2020 (UTC) EdJohnston ( talk) 05:04, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
The Californias → Californias – WP:THE – definite article not capitalized in modern sources – no need to keep disambiguation page, as this is the only entry. Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 01:29, 22 January 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BegbertBiggs ( talk) 11:06, 31 January 2020 (UTC)