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"The Bridge to Total Freedom" has been published by the Church of Scientology for many years, at least since 1980 and probably much longer. The video of a similar name might become a portion of a larger article which could be titled The Bridge to Total Freedom or simply, The Bridge because it is most widely know by the brief name. There are many copies in various sizes and there were a number of changes (mostly minor) over the years since its beginning. But its basic form of a processing side and a training side have been standard on all the copies I have seen. I'm not sure we could put a whole copy here, but it is a pretty well known piece of information. Terryeo 04:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This isn't a documentary, it's a fictional drama based on true events. The page needs to be moved to an accurate title and the article fixed. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 09:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
[2], Hanover's website, talks about "the Bridge" and says
"The Bridge" was a narrative feature which I directed in 2006. Due to copyright issues, I have asked that this film be removed from circulation. Please do not contact me regarding this production.
Yes, I deliberately removed the graphics and the attribution line. The graphics seem unecessary and distracting (I don't agree that text blocks need spicing up that way), but I won't quibble. The attribution line should go, though, because the the quote we are now using is not dated, and Hanover's name is redundant. Sorry to seem a stick-in-the-mud. BTfromLA 22:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
But what do y'all think? Yours, Joe1141 19:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC).
It's a no-brainer that Wikipedia isn't supposed to be pointing readers to where unauthorized copies of the film can be downloaded. Anyone who knows how to operate a search engine and wants to find it can easily do so anyway. Let it go. wikipediatrix 16:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I was disappointed in this film because, while it had the trappings of Scientology included in somewhat altered fashion, it failed to show the sense of Scientology and why the girl would even want to continue in it; she never has one win, one cognition; and she looks so down all the time. But this morning (while in the shower but that is probably way more than you wanted to know) I realize that the film maker had actually crafted a true representation of something, something that can be a part of Scientology, though it is not supposed to happen. The film shows what happens when the tech is bent to someone's personal agenda. That is considered suppressive in Scientology and the head of her org is a good candidate for an SP declare. He is squirrelling Scn tech to steer the girl where he wants her to go. In an actual session there is none of that "psych-style" evaluation you see going on, especially in the clay table part. You can see that she gets no gains from those actions and that is how it would be in a squirrel session. He invalidates her state of Clear by cutting her off in that unrealistic "graduation" (Scientologists give three hip hip hoorays as a sign of respect on occasion but not always and never as robots over and over again). I think he embezzled the funds for LRH's office and that is why it is missing. Of course, in any actual org the door is always open but roped off to prevent entry. I just thought it interesting that, in this light, it is quite a true film; it just is not really about Scientology but some alteration of it. -- Justanother 17:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The word "encyclopedia" is a Greek word. "EN-CYCLO-PEDIA" Something that includes the knowledge. (As a Greek i don't have to be an expert to know the meaning of the word). So let's keep that in mind. In this very site we see under " illegal drug trade" how drugs are distributed through borders and the internet. We even see pictures. Does this mean that Wikipedia wants us to learn how to do it ourselves? Of course not. It's just a fact that we should know about. Wikipedia would never promote the illegal drug distribution Now let's see... Isn't it a fact that some torrent sites have the torrent file and NOT the file itself, for " The Bridge (film)"? Yes it is and this makes the article not complete. The director removed the film but with a torrent client someone can download it. After I tried a couple of times to add this fact to the article, the user VPOCO removed it. He probably also removed the phrase that said sites like "youtube" and "Google video" hosted the actual file. I never wrote which sites had the torrent file and that people should download it, just like the article about illegal drug trade never even mentioned that we should use the methods of drug trade to our benefit Netslaveone 01:55 GMT+2 03/11/06
Is the current wording (not mentioning torrents but mentioning that the video is still available through unofficial channels) acceptable to all? I feel VERY strongly that we should not be giving people information on how to infringe a copyright. It's like putting into the article on Microsoft Office "Though it can be purchased, a cracked version can also be downloaded for free on various P2P sites." <strikeout>It's unacceptable. Vpoko 14:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Left. Yes, that is what I mean. OK, do we have a compromise here? -- Justanother 16:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
This is all academic anyhow, because Wikipedia forbids pointing to illegal and/or copyvio material and if the article persists in doing so, it will be reported and nipped in the bud by admins. So go out, enjoy the sunshine, hit a Starbucks, do some Xmas shopping. wikipediatrix 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
i dont think it is pointing at it, it says it exists and that it is illegal to use. I am of the belief that to point out that something is illegal is better than to close our eyes and let it be. we should point out everything even the things that are not necessarily just. If the bridge has become such a topic it is because of its ban and the people that try to pass it along. Someone who reads the article should know that even when they find it, that downloading it goes against laws and the wishes of the director. will not comment on this again, wish you all the best in resolving. ps i am happy with the wording of Justanother on this. irinid d
Rogue9 pointed out (above) that the copyright holder had granted a license to redistribute his work. The revokability of such a license without the legal element of consideration (without somebody "paying" for the right) is very questionable (a court would probably allow him to rescind the permission), but without a judgement (or at least a DMCA takedown notice sent to Wikimedia) to the contrary, I don't think we have any obligation to remove the material. Vpoko 16:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get in an edit war over this, but I can't understand how "several people have made a conscious effort to repost the movie on as many sites as possible following an outcry after the movie's censorship" belongs in the article. The fact that people are still posting the digital file is clearly implied by the previous sentence, "digital copies of the film continue to circulate on the internet." "Censorship" implies that there was some sort of governmental ban, and there is no reason to believe anything of the kind is true. What I think you want to say is that some people believe the church of scientology threated the filmmaker in order to suppress the film. While that may well be true, there's no evidence for that that I'm aware of, I don't see how it belongs in the article either. But the censorship bit is plain false. BTfromLA 20:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
If a film-maker illegally uses another's intellectual property without permissions (going well beyond "fair use" if such has applicability in fictional films) and the rights owner threatens the film-maker with legal action if he does not withdraw it (all assumptions on my part) how is that somehow "wrong" or "censorship"? The film-makers could have edited out the objectional bits and re-released. They apparently made the decision not to. -- Justanother 00:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
It amounts to giving an inappropriate forum to wild speculation. It reduces wikipedia to a gossip column. It does us all a disservice. -- Justanother 05:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. You brought up the subject of POV. I have no problem with your last edit though I do see a bit of an effort to use wikipedia to further an otherwise obscure rumor rather that simply report on the film. -- Justanother 06:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Two problems with this: first, it is hosted on a problematic site - the scientomogy site is polemical in nature - which is not provably associated with the subject. Second, it appears to violate the originator's copyright ( WP:EL, links to avoid). Please get over the "suppression of information" stuff and discuss this per policy and guidelines. Guy ( Help!) 10:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
To involved editors:
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"The Bridge to Total Freedom" has been published by the Church of Scientology for many years, at least since 1980 and probably much longer. The video of a similar name might become a portion of a larger article which could be titled The Bridge to Total Freedom or simply, The Bridge because it is most widely know by the brief name. There are many copies in various sizes and there were a number of changes (mostly minor) over the years since its beginning. But its basic form of a processing side and a training side have been standard on all the copies I have seen. I'm not sure we could put a whole copy here, but it is a pretty well known piece of information. Terryeo 04:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This isn't a documentary, it's a fictional drama based on true events. The page needs to be moved to an accurate title and the article fixed. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 09:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
[2], Hanover's website, talks about "the Bridge" and says
"The Bridge" was a narrative feature which I directed in 2006. Due to copyright issues, I have asked that this film be removed from circulation. Please do not contact me regarding this production.
Yes, I deliberately removed the graphics and the attribution line. The graphics seem unecessary and distracting (I don't agree that text blocks need spicing up that way), but I won't quibble. The attribution line should go, though, because the the quote we are now using is not dated, and Hanover's name is redundant. Sorry to seem a stick-in-the-mud. BTfromLA 22:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
But what do y'all think? Yours, Joe1141 19:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC).
It's a no-brainer that Wikipedia isn't supposed to be pointing readers to where unauthorized copies of the film can be downloaded. Anyone who knows how to operate a search engine and wants to find it can easily do so anyway. Let it go. wikipediatrix 16:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I was disappointed in this film because, while it had the trappings of Scientology included in somewhat altered fashion, it failed to show the sense of Scientology and why the girl would even want to continue in it; she never has one win, one cognition; and she looks so down all the time. But this morning (while in the shower but that is probably way more than you wanted to know) I realize that the film maker had actually crafted a true representation of something, something that can be a part of Scientology, though it is not supposed to happen. The film shows what happens when the tech is bent to someone's personal agenda. That is considered suppressive in Scientology and the head of her org is a good candidate for an SP declare. He is squirrelling Scn tech to steer the girl where he wants her to go. In an actual session there is none of that "psych-style" evaluation you see going on, especially in the clay table part. You can see that she gets no gains from those actions and that is how it would be in a squirrel session. He invalidates her state of Clear by cutting her off in that unrealistic "graduation" (Scientologists give three hip hip hoorays as a sign of respect on occasion but not always and never as robots over and over again). I think he embezzled the funds for LRH's office and that is why it is missing. Of course, in any actual org the door is always open but roped off to prevent entry. I just thought it interesting that, in this light, it is quite a true film; it just is not really about Scientology but some alteration of it. -- Justanother 17:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The word "encyclopedia" is a Greek word. "EN-CYCLO-PEDIA" Something that includes the knowledge. (As a Greek i don't have to be an expert to know the meaning of the word). So let's keep that in mind. In this very site we see under " illegal drug trade" how drugs are distributed through borders and the internet. We even see pictures. Does this mean that Wikipedia wants us to learn how to do it ourselves? Of course not. It's just a fact that we should know about. Wikipedia would never promote the illegal drug distribution Now let's see... Isn't it a fact that some torrent sites have the torrent file and NOT the file itself, for " The Bridge (film)"? Yes it is and this makes the article not complete. The director removed the film but with a torrent client someone can download it. After I tried a couple of times to add this fact to the article, the user VPOCO removed it. He probably also removed the phrase that said sites like "youtube" and "Google video" hosted the actual file. I never wrote which sites had the torrent file and that people should download it, just like the article about illegal drug trade never even mentioned that we should use the methods of drug trade to our benefit Netslaveone 01:55 GMT+2 03/11/06
Is the current wording (not mentioning torrents but mentioning that the video is still available through unofficial channels) acceptable to all? I feel VERY strongly that we should not be giving people information on how to infringe a copyright. It's like putting into the article on Microsoft Office "Though it can be purchased, a cracked version can also be downloaded for free on various P2P sites." <strikeout>It's unacceptable. Vpoko 14:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Left. Yes, that is what I mean. OK, do we have a compromise here? -- Justanother 16:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
This is all academic anyhow, because Wikipedia forbids pointing to illegal and/or copyvio material and if the article persists in doing so, it will be reported and nipped in the bud by admins. So go out, enjoy the sunshine, hit a Starbucks, do some Xmas shopping. wikipediatrix 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
i dont think it is pointing at it, it says it exists and that it is illegal to use. I am of the belief that to point out that something is illegal is better than to close our eyes and let it be. we should point out everything even the things that are not necessarily just. If the bridge has become such a topic it is because of its ban and the people that try to pass it along. Someone who reads the article should know that even when they find it, that downloading it goes against laws and the wishes of the director. will not comment on this again, wish you all the best in resolving. ps i am happy with the wording of Justanother on this. irinid d
Rogue9 pointed out (above) that the copyright holder had granted a license to redistribute his work. The revokability of such a license without the legal element of consideration (without somebody "paying" for the right) is very questionable (a court would probably allow him to rescind the permission), but without a judgement (or at least a DMCA takedown notice sent to Wikimedia) to the contrary, I don't think we have any obligation to remove the material. Vpoko 16:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get in an edit war over this, but I can't understand how "several people have made a conscious effort to repost the movie on as many sites as possible following an outcry after the movie's censorship" belongs in the article. The fact that people are still posting the digital file is clearly implied by the previous sentence, "digital copies of the film continue to circulate on the internet." "Censorship" implies that there was some sort of governmental ban, and there is no reason to believe anything of the kind is true. What I think you want to say is that some people believe the church of scientology threated the filmmaker in order to suppress the film. While that may well be true, there's no evidence for that that I'm aware of, I don't see how it belongs in the article either. But the censorship bit is plain false. BTfromLA 20:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
If a film-maker illegally uses another's intellectual property without permissions (going well beyond "fair use" if such has applicability in fictional films) and the rights owner threatens the film-maker with legal action if he does not withdraw it (all assumptions on my part) how is that somehow "wrong" or "censorship"? The film-makers could have edited out the objectional bits and re-released. They apparently made the decision not to. -- Justanother 00:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
It amounts to giving an inappropriate forum to wild speculation. It reduces wikipedia to a gossip column. It does us all a disservice. -- Justanother 05:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. You brought up the subject of POV. I have no problem with your last edit though I do see a bit of an effort to use wikipedia to further an otherwise obscure rumor rather that simply report on the film. -- Justanother 06:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Two problems with this: first, it is hosted on a problematic site - the scientomogy site is polemical in nature - which is not provably associated with the subject. Second, it appears to violate the originator's copyright ( WP:EL, links to avoid). Please get over the "suppression of information" stuff and discuss this per policy and guidelines. Guy ( Help!) 10:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
To involved editors:
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |