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I always figured the western boundary was Coxwell, not Woodbine. The beach itself, and the boardwalk, stretch to Coxwell. And everyone in the area between Coxwell and Woodbine always identify themselves as being in the Beaches or Upper Beaches. While those east of Coxwell don't. Nfitz 15:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no consensus. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 13:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, these are the boundaries: to the north, Gerrard St, to the south, Lake Ontario, to the west, Coxwell Ave, to the east, Victoria Park. Griffin Murphy 23:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The Beaches → The Beach (Toronto) – The article refers to the neighbourhood as "The Beaches", although there is a section of the article dealing with the perennial Beach vs. Beaches debate. The local Business Improvement Association recently held a straw poll to decide which name to use on street signs, and "The Beach" won out. The article has been subject to fairly regular POV edits on both sides of the name issue, edits which appear to be increasing in number due to the renewed media interest in the debate. I do not care which name is chosen, as long as we achieve some consensus on one and stick with it. -- Skeezix1000 17:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Official street signs will use the singular: [1]
Does this necessitate a move of the article to a new title? Radagast 18:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I am more concerned about process, however. Given the controversy over the name of the neighbourhood, if someone believes that the article should be moved to "The Beach (Toronto)" (I think "The Beach" is already taken), then we should go through a proper "Requested Move" process and seek consensus before any move is undertaken. I do hope that today's news does not lead someone to unilaterally move the article. Skeezix1000 19:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I voted for the plural form, so this is not coming from someone who has an axe to grind with regard to the name or the naming decision. It just seems wrong to retain the plural form as the name for the article when a majority of residents have opted for the singular version.
And yes you are right, The Beach is already taken, and arguably should be made into a disambig page if we go with The Beach (Toronto). Captmondo 19:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
But your comments on whether retaining the old article name is POV goes to the very point I was making -- others may diagree that the BIA vote represents any kind of consensus, and that is something for which there should be discussion here on Wikipedia before any move is undertaken. Personally, I have never really cared either way about this name debate, but have erred on the side of caution to retain the title as "The Beaches" because (a) that's how the article was originally written, and more importantly, (b) that's how it is designated by all levels of government (the riding and the ward). The BIA undertook a non-verifiable, unscientific poll to decide the name to put on street signs. Nothing more. I do believe that there are a number of good, debatable reasons to move the article to "The Beach", but the BIA vote, in my opinion, is really not one of them. See? We disagree on even the initial premise of whether or not the vote means a darn thing or not. And you and I usually see eye-to-eye on this article. I can only imagine that there are others who will also have strong opinions. Skeezix1000 20:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I also don't think Wikipedia as a whole should offer any judgment on the BIA vote in terms of its process, though it would be prudent to note how it was carried out.
And just as an aside it is amusing to note how local reporters are obviously taking a peek at the article as a basis for their own stories. (I had *never* heard of anyone using plural/singular form instead of "Beaches"/"Beach" prior to it being used here. Check out today's copy of Metro News to see it used liberally throughout the piece. ;-) Captmondo 15:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you that no one should undertake any original research in questioning the BIA vote (e.g. "was there ballot-stuffing?") for inclusion in the article, but Wikipedians are entitled to consider the significance of the vote (or lack thereof), the verifiable facts as to how it was conducted, and how much weight they attribute to the vote as compared to all the other facts in the great Beach-Beaches debate. The consensus may be that the vote if the best piece of evidence available, and is therefore determinative, or that it was meaningless.
I might be overstating the potential controversy over the proposed move. It may be that most Wikipedians don't care, or that a clear consensus emerges right away. However, given the history of this issue in the neighbourhood, and the history of some inappropriate edits to the article, there is potential for controversy, so it's best to move cautiously. -- Skeezix1000 13:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
POV-ful... suggest rewording. elpincha 15:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the word class shouldn't be used, like upper-middle class. It has a very negative tone. Perhaps it should read something like... The Beaches is a neighbourhood which is inhabited by mostly upper-middle income families. xero 18:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This section has always been problematic.
First, I propose that the section be limited to those persons that are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article. Thus, we avoid (or at least can reverse) the addition of persons who are of questionable notability. I'm tired of people adding their own names, the names of their friends, or the names of locals that they deem to be notable. We need an objective standard, and meriting inclusion in Wikipedia is a good one.
Second, the section needs to be sourced. Editors (mostly anons) routinely add names to this section, and it is impossible to tell whether or not these persons are actually from the Beaches/Beach or not. I've tagged the section as unreferenced for now. At some point, names that can't be verified should be removed, until someone can provide a source.
Third, and finally, in my opinion alumni lists for Malvern Collegiate belong in the article on Malvern Collegiate, not in this article. Heck, a lot of people believe that Malvern isn't even located in the Beaches, given its location north of Kingston Road. It may serve the Beaches neighbourhood, but that doesn't mean that its students who aren't from the Beaches suddenly become "notable people from the Beaches" by association with fellow students who happen to live in the Beaches.
Thoughts? Skeezix1000 ( talk) 17:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The description in the introductory paragraph of the neighbourhood's boundaries has been edited multiple times over the past years, all with a lack of back-up sources. Can anyone assist with finding a properly sourced description of the boundaries? Or even a properly sourced description that acknowledges that there is some ambiguity to the boundaries? Much thanks. -- Skeezix1000 ( talk) 14:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
So, the Toronto mapping is probably the best we have at the moment, but isn't necessarily determinative should other sources be identified. -- Skeezix1000 ( talk) 19:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. This can be revisited if common usage changes to prefer the singular usage as a result of the new signage, but per the article itself, the debate is unlikely to go away. Also note that article names on Wikipedia do not necessarily reflect official naming patterns. Dekimasu よ! 14:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
The City has now or is in the process of finishing the installation of signs saying "The Beach". News report at this location. Alaney2k ( talk) 18:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
"The lakefront is divided into two sections; Woodbine Beach to the west, Kew Beach in the centre, and Balmy Beach to the east. "
Does anybody know what the editor was trying to say with this sentence? Did they mean 3 sections? Because I've also seen Balmy and Kew Beach lumped together, which could explain the 'two sections' 68.179.102.105 ( talk) 14:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
An accurate geographic dash geological description of The Beaches would include more than the fact that the beach sand tends to erode away. Having lived on Lee near Kingston, I have first hand knowledge that the higher land north of Queen Street is sliding towards Lake Ontario, at what used to be a glacial pace before global warming. Foundation and basement cracks can graduate to full fissuredom. The entire area is under-laced by small streams which were covered during original construction. Nature, however, is only kind when beavers screw with water, not when humans do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.128.142.167 ( talk) 23:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
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Ken Westerfield is in the "Grew up in the neighbourhood" list, but according to his article, he graduated high school in Michigan, did not move to Canada until he was 23 years old, and now lives in Arizona. Therefore he does not fit in any of the 3 sub-lists in that section. I do see him as notable with respect to the area and suggest a fourth sub-list, for people associated with the Beaches. Hilmar ( talk) 21:11, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
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I always figured the western boundary was Coxwell, not Woodbine. The beach itself, and the boardwalk, stretch to Coxwell. And everyone in the area between Coxwell and Woodbine always identify themselves as being in the Beaches or Upper Beaches. While those east of Coxwell don't. Nfitz 15:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no consensus. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 13:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, these are the boundaries: to the north, Gerrard St, to the south, Lake Ontario, to the west, Coxwell Ave, to the east, Victoria Park. Griffin Murphy 23:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The Beaches → The Beach (Toronto) – The article refers to the neighbourhood as "The Beaches", although there is a section of the article dealing with the perennial Beach vs. Beaches debate. The local Business Improvement Association recently held a straw poll to decide which name to use on street signs, and "The Beach" won out. The article has been subject to fairly regular POV edits on both sides of the name issue, edits which appear to be increasing in number due to the renewed media interest in the debate. I do not care which name is chosen, as long as we achieve some consensus on one and stick with it. -- Skeezix1000 17:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Official street signs will use the singular: [1]
Does this necessitate a move of the article to a new title? Radagast 18:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I am more concerned about process, however. Given the controversy over the name of the neighbourhood, if someone believes that the article should be moved to "The Beach (Toronto)" (I think "The Beach" is already taken), then we should go through a proper "Requested Move" process and seek consensus before any move is undertaken. I do hope that today's news does not lead someone to unilaterally move the article. Skeezix1000 19:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I voted for the plural form, so this is not coming from someone who has an axe to grind with regard to the name or the naming decision. It just seems wrong to retain the plural form as the name for the article when a majority of residents have opted for the singular version.
And yes you are right, The Beach is already taken, and arguably should be made into a disambig page if we go with The Beach (Toronto). Captmondo 19:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
But your comments on whether retaining the old article name is POV goes to the very point I was making -- others may diagree that the BIA vote represents any kind of consensus, and that is something for which there should be discussion here on Wikipedia before any move is undertaken. Personally, I have never really cared either way about this name debate, but have erred on the side of caution to retain the title as "The Beaches" because (a) that's how the article was originally written, and more importantly, (b) that's how it is designated by all levels of government (the riding and the ward). The BIA undertook a non-verifiable, unscientific poll to decide the name to put on street signs. Nothing more. I do believe that there are a number of good, debatable reasons to move the article to "The Beach", but the BIA vote, in my opinion, is really not one of them. See? We disagree on even the initial premise of whether or not the vote means a darn thing or not. And you and I usually see eye-to-eye on this article. I can only imagine that there are others who will also have strong opinions. Skeezix1000 20:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I also don't think Wikipedia as a whole should offer any judgment on the BIA vote in terms of its process, though it would be prudent to note how it was carried out.
And just as an aside it is amusing to note how local reporters are obviously taking a peek at the article as a basis for their own stories. (I had *never* heard of anyone using plural/singular form instead of "Beaches"/"Beach" prior to it being used here. Check out today's copy of Metro News to see it used liberally throughout the piece. ;-) Captmondo 15:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you that no one should undertake any original research in questioning the BIA vote (e.g. "was there ballot-stuffing?") for inclusion in the article, but Wikipedians are entitled to consider the significance of the vote (or lack thereof), the verifiable facts as to how it was conducted, and how much weight they attribute to the vote as compared to all the other facts in the great Beach-Beaches debate. The consensus may be that the vote if the best piece of evidence available, and is therefore determinative, or that it was meaningless.
I might be overstating the potential controversy over the proposed move. It may be that most Wikipedians don't care, or that a clear consensus emerges right away. However, given the history of this issue in the neighbourhood, and the history of some inappropriate edits to the article, there is potential for controversy, so it's best to move cautiously. -- Skeezix1000 13:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
POV-ful... suggest rewording. elpincha 15:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the word class shouldn't be used, like upper-middle class. It has a very negative tone. Perhaps it should read something like... The Beaches is a neighbourhood which is inhabited by mostly upper-middle income families. xero 18:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This section has always been problematic.
First, I propose that the section be limited to those persons that are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article. Thus, we avoid (or at least can reverse) the addition of persons who are of questionable notability. I'm tired of people adding their own names, the names of their friends, or the names of locals that they deem to be notable. We need an objective standard, and meriting inclusion in Wikipedia is a good one.
Second, the section needs to be sourced. Editors (mostly anons) routinely add names to this section, and it is impossible to tell whether or not these persons are actually from the Beaches/Beach or not. I've tagged the section as unreferenced for now. At some point, names that can't be verified should be removed, until someone can provide a source.
Third, and finally, in my opinion alumni lists for Malvern Collegiate belong in the article on Malvern Collegiate, not in this article. Heck, a lot of people believe that Malvern isn't even located in the Beaches, given its location north of Kingston Road. It may serve the Beaches neighbourhood, but that doesn't mean that its students who aren't from the Beaches suddenly become "notable people from the Beaches" by association with fellow students who happen to live in the Beaches.
Thoughts? Skeezix1000 ( talk) 17:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The description in the introductory paragraph of the neighbourhood's boundaries has been edited multiple times over the past years, all with a lack of back-up sources. Can anyone assist with finding a properly sourced description of the boundaries? Or even a properly sourced description that acknowledges that there is some ambiguity to the boundaries? Much thanks. -- Skeezix1000 ( talk) 14:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
So, the Toronto mapping is probably the best we have at the moment, but isn't necessarily determinative should other sources be identified. -- Skeezix1000 ( talk) 19:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. This can be revisited if common usage changes to prefer the singular usage as a result of the new signage, but per the article itself, the debate is unlikely to go away. Also note that article names on Wikipedia do not necessarily reflect official naming patterns. Dekimasu よ! 14:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
The City has now or is in the process of finishing the installation of signs saying "The Beach". News report at this location. Alaney2k ( talk) 18:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
"The lakefront is divided into two sections; Woodbine Beach to the west, Kew Beach in the centre, and Balmy Beach to the east. "
Does anybody know what the editor was trying to say with this sentence? Did they mean 3 sections? Because I've also seen Balmy and Kew Beach lumped together, which could explain the 'two sections' 68.179.102.105 ( talk) 14:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
An accurate geographic dash geological description of The Beaches would include more than the fact that the beach sand tends to erode away. Having lived on Lee near Kingston, I have first hand knowledge that the higher land north of Queen Street is sliding towards Lake Ontario, at what used to be a glacial pace before global warming. Foundation and basement cracks can graduate to full fissuredom. The entire area is under-laced by small streams which were covered during original construction. Nature, however, is only kind when beavers screw with water, not when humans do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.128.142.167 ( talk) 23:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
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Ken Westerfield is in the "Grew up in the neighbourhood" list, but according to his article, he graduated high school in Michigan, did not move to Canada until he was 23 years old, and now lives in Arizona. Therefore he does not fit in any of the 3 sub-lists in that section. I do see him as notable with respect to the area and suggest a fourth sub-list, for people associated with the Beaches. Hilmar ( talk) 21:11, 14 August 2019 (UTC)