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Marriage, crossover, and first tour in the United States
Since there is no mention of marriage in this section, I have taken the initiative to delete "marriage" from the section title. I imagine it was a holdover from an earlier version of the article that must have been organized differently.
Nonstopdrivel (
talk)
01:45, 28 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 8 May 2022
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. Both sides disputed whether
WP:SMALLDETAILS applied to this title, or whether í vs. i was too small of a difference to fall under SMALLDETAILS' purview; on this front, there was no clear consensus. When that line of discussion was set aside, opponents of the move had a broader base of arguments:
WP:CONCISE was highlighted in favor of the current title, and the proposed disambiguator "(singer)" was identified as unsuitable, as it would overlook the article subject's acting career. (
non-admin closure)
ModernDayTrilobite (
talk •
contribs)
22:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Thalía → Thalía (singer) – per balance of
WP:CRITERIA, visually non-distinctive from the
Thalia dab page, restore parenthetical disambiguation but leave bare name Thalía as primary redirect. The tiny accent on i not visible to many readers and many English non-high MOS quality sources such as pop webpages can't show the accent. Reader unfriendly.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 10:57, 8 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (
投稿)
15:25, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose, ignoring the fact that she is a successful singer and actress, but you decided that her acting career is irrelevant,
readers disagree with you. Maybe it is because the five
WP:CRITERIA "should be seen as goals, not as rules" or maybe it is because "The tiny accent on i not visible to many readers" is a factually incorrect statement. Who knows.
(CC)Tbhotch™14:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Now, if "many English non-high MOS quality sources such as pop webpages can't show the accent" is correct, what you are actually asking is
Thalía → Thalia (singer) move, because, well, that's the English-language
WP:COMMONAME and actually follows the CRITERIA you are using as the reason to move the page:
"Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with". What's more recognizable for an English speaker, Thalía or Thalia. According to you, if "the tiny accent on i not visible to many readers [and some] webpages can't show the accent", then Thalia is the answer, thanks to
Thalia (Muse).
"Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use". If English readers can't use accents, then their probability of typing í is 0.
Support - IIO is absolutely right that the accent on the "i" is almost unnoticeable. I would also be somewhat inclined to support the move of
Thalia to a dab page for a primary redirect to the singer, though I haven't fully thought through the other uses.
RedSlash16:47, 11 May 2022 (UTC)reply
But I've already said that I believe that "for English speakers, the acute accent is insufficient disambiguation." What I meant is that for a common English speaker the acute acent is "invisible". It doesn't constitute a "small detail" or whatever. Cause the acute accent is not even a "visible detail". And I have demonstrated that it is invisible not only for a common Wikipedia reader, but for magazine editors. A common English editor can't distinguish "Thalia" from "Thalia". If someone has previously visited the page "
Thalía", he will just type "Thalia" in the Wikipedia search box and he will expect to be forwarded to the singer's page, but he won't be and he will be very confused. --
Moscow Connection (
talk)
15:44, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Btw, when I opened the disambiguation page today, I had a very hard time finding the link to the singer's page. Those were some very unpleasant 10 seconds or so. If the article was titled "Thalía (singer)" I would find the needed page much faster. --
Moscow Connection (
talk)
15:59, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
And "very unpleasant 10 seconds or so" is up to your connection and devices. There is no rule that says we should move pages just to satisfy your standards on connectivity.
(CC)Tbhotch™16:34, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I have a good (broadband) connection and a good device (a computer). But I couldn't see the singer mentioned on the page at first and I even thought he wasn't there. Everyone else had a short description in parentheses (or a family name), but she didn't. --
Moscow Connection (
talk)
16:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
From the disambiguation page:
Name of the section: People
Eighth entry: Thalía, Mexican singer, songwriter, actress, writer and businesswoman.
I don't know why it took you a "very hard time" to find the singer. Changing the entry to "Thalía (singer), Mexican singer, songwriter, actress, writer and businesswoman" has no impact, unless you only pay attention to paretheses and colors when you land on a dab page, rather than paying attention to the description. Now, if the problem is the disambiguation page itself, because these pages are supposed to be helpful and intuitive, then the layout should be replaced with one that is simplified: The "People, mythological and fictional characters" should be split into mythological and fictional characters subsections, the Media should be split into more subsections, including "music", and Thalía should be placed there. Then again, that not a concern of this RM.
(CC)Tbhotch™16:57, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose.
Nothing is broken here. If we add to this a proposed disambiguator that is only partially complete as
Tbhotch points out, the status quo is a no-brainer (unless that a compelling rationale for not using accent at all is elaborated: that is, a wholly different discussion than the current one).--Asqueladd (
talk)
19:12, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pop music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
pop music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Pop musicWikipedia:WikiProject Pop musicTemplate:WikiProject Pop musicPop music articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mexico, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Mexico on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MexicoWikipedia:WikiProject MexicoTemplate:WikiProject MexicoMexico articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Latin music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
Latin music (music performed in Spanish, Portuguese and the languages of Ibero-America, see project scope for more details) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Latin musicWikipedia:WikiProject Latin musicTemplate:WikiProject Latin musicLatin music articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women in Music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Women in music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women in MusicWikipedia:WikiProject Women in MusicTemplate:WikiProject Women in MusicWomen in music articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women writers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
women writers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women writersWikipedia:WikiProject Women writersTemplate:WikiProject Women writersWomen writers articles
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You must be logged-in, have 10 edits and an account age of 4 days
Marriage, crossover, and first tour in the United States
Since there is no mention of marriage in this section, I have taken the initiative to delete "marriage" from the section title. I imagine it was a holdover from an earlier version of the article that must have been organized differently.
Nonstopdrivel (
talk)
01:45, 28 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 8 May 2022
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. Both sides disputed whether
WP:SMALLDETAILS applied to this title, or whether í vs. i was too small of a difference to fall under SMALLDETAILS' purview; on this front, there was no clear consensus. When that line of discussion was set aside, opponents of the move had a broader base of arguments:
WP:CONCISE was highlighted in favor of the current title, and the proposed disambiguator "(singer)" was identified as unsuitable, as it would overlook the article subject's acting career. (
non-admin closure)
ModernDayTrilobite (
talk •
contribs)
22:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Thalía → Thalía (singer) – per balance of
WP:CRITERIA, visually non-distinctive from the
Thalia dab page, restore parenthetical disambiguation but leave bare name Thalía as primary redirect. The tiny accent on i not visible to many readers and many English non-high MOS quality sources such as pop webpages can't show the accent. Reader unfriendly.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 10:57, 8 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (
投稿)
15:25, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose, ignoring the fact that she is a successful singer and actress, but you decided that her acting career is irrelevant,
readers disagree with you. Maybe it is because the five
WP:CRITERIA "should be seen as goals, not as rules" or maybe it is because "The tiny accent on i not visible to many readers" is a factually incorrect statement. Who knows.
(CC)Tbhotch™14:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Now, if "many English non-high MOS quality sources such as pop webpages can't show the accent" is correct, what you are actually asking is
Thalía → Thalia (singer) move, because, well, that's the English-language
WP:COMMONAME and actually follows the CRITERIA you are using as the reason to move the page:
"Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with". What's more recognizable for an English speaker, Thalía or Thalia. According to you, if "the tiny accent on i not visible to many readers [and some] webpages can't show the accent", then Thalia is the answer, thanks to
Thalia (Muse).
"Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use". If English readers can't use accents, then their probability of typing í is 0.
Support - IIO is absolutely right that the accent on the "i" is almost unnoticeable. I would also be somewhat inclined to support the move of
Thalia to a dab page for a primary redirect to the singer, though I haven't fully thought through the other uses.
RedSlash16:47, 11 May 2022 (UTC)reply
But I've already said that I believe that "for English speakers, the acute accent is insufficient disambiguation." What I meant is that for a common English speaker the acute acent is "invisible". It doesn't constitute a "small detail" or whatever. Cause the acute accent is not even a "visible detail". And I have demonstrated that it is invisible not only for a common Wikipedia reader, but for magazine editors. A common English editor can't distinguish "Thalia" from "Thalia". If someone has previously visited the page "
Thalía", he will just type "Thalia" in the Wikipedia search box and he will expect to be forwarded to the singer's page, but he won't be and he will be very confused. --
Moscow Connection (
talk)
15:44, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Btw, when I opened the disambiguation page today, I had a very hard time finding the link to the singer's page. Those were some very unpleasant 10 seconds or so. If the article was titled "Thalía (singer)" I would find the needed page much faster. --
Moscow Connection (
talk)
15:59, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
And "very unpleasant 10 seconds or so" is up to your connection and devices. There is no rule that says we should move pages just to satisfy your standards on connectivity.
(CC)Tbhotch™16:34, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I have a good (broadband) connection and a good device (a computer). But I couldn't see the singer mentioned on the page at first and I even thought he wasn't there. Everyone else had a short description in parentheses (or a family name), but she didn't. --
Moscow Connection (
talk)
16:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
From the disambiguation page:
Name of the section: People
Eighth entry: Thalía, Mexican singer, songwriter, actress, writer and businesswoman.
I don't know why it took you a "very hard time" to find the singer. Changing the entry to "Thalía (singer), Mexican singer, songwriter, actress, writer and businesswoman" has no impact, unless you only pay attention to paretheses and colors when you land on a dab page, rather than paying attention to the description. Now, if the problem is the disambiguation page itself, because these pages are supposed to be helpful and intuitive, then the layout should be replaced with one that is simplified: The "People, mythological and fictional characters" should be split into mythological and fictional characters subsections, the Media should be split into more subsections, including "music", and Thalía should be placed there. Then again, that not a concern of this RM.
(CC)Tbhotch™16:57, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose.
Nothing is broken here. If we add to this a proposed disambiguator that is only partially complete as
Tbhotch points out, the status quo is a no-brainer (unless that a compelling rationale for not using accent at all is elaborated: that is, a wholly different discussion than the current one).--Asqueladd (
talk)
19:12, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.