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Why does "Teutones" appear so often in this article? Can I reach the Teutones at 867-5309? Shall I ask for Jenny? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neuroglider ( talk • contribs) 04:23, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Even from the quote only 300 in that given conflict, commited suicide... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.49.181.241 ( talk) 03:37, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
With respect to the Teuten / Tödden / Tattare: possibly there is a connection with the fact mentioned by Caesar in "De bello Gallico" (2,29), that the Cimbres and Teutons had left 6,000 men (then called "Atuatuci" bei the population of the region) to guard a part of their luggage in the region of Namurs. (Vittorio Ferretti, 07.03.07)
For this reason I would like to retain the comment on the possible link with these people
(Chris Geets, 07.05.30)
I've cleaned up the text to make it clearer, more direct and concise. I commented out a passage at the end, written by someone who hadn't read the article: it needs to be integrated with the text. ---- Wetman ( talk) 21:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Teuta- [hard "a"] - Tribe. 1. Germanic *theuda- [hard "a"], people, with derivative *theudiskaz, of the people, in Middle Dutch duutsch, German, of the Germans or Teutons: DUTCH, PLATIDEUTSCH. 2. Suffixed form *teut-onos [hard second "o"], "they of the tribe," in Germanic trival name *theudanoz [hard "o"], borrowed via Celtic into Latin as Teutoni [hard "o" and "i"], the Teutons: TEUTON. 3. Latin *totus [hard "o"], all, whole (?<"of the whole tribe"): TEETOTUM, TOTAL, TUTTI; FACTOTUS. [In Pok. teu- [hard "e"] 1080.] Note: linguistic convention - astericks indicate reconstructed form not attested in documents. Tesseract501 16:05, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph:
As a matter of fact the faction the writer meant was in fact the Order of the Teutonic Knights, not the Germanic tribe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.32.212.189 ( talk) 23:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________________
"Teutones"? Isn't it the Spanish word for Teutons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.119.136 ( talk) 03:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.147.131 ( talk) 00:58, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
In English, it usually refers to the Germans, another group entirely. I believe most recent scholarly sources refer to Teutones, not Teutons, and the Teutons page should probably be a dab page with Teutones to refer to the tribe best known as the Teutones. 173.66.211.53 ( talk) 00:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
"although the distinction between Celts and Teutons is not clearly realized by some earlier historians."
First, I can't figure out which "Teutons" the text refers to: the Teutones? the Germanic peoples generally [who may or may not include the Teutones]? hopefully not the modern Germans. Second, if this refers to the Teutones, then it assumes that they were not Celtic. Third, "not clearly realized by some earlier historians" is hard to make sense of. Is the whole thing saying that the earlier Roman historians didn't necessarily distinguish Celtic and Germanic peoples? And even when they did, that they didn't always do so in the same way modern historians would have done so? 173.66.211.53 ( talk) 01:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. -- BDD ( talk) 17:44, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Teutons → Teutones – Clarity/precision. "Teutones" clearly refers to the tribe. "Teutons" usually refers to the modern Germans or, sometimes, to many or most of the Germanic peoples, and rarely only refers to the Teutones themselves. To exclude the use of "Teutons" in the other sense, I suggest comparing Google scholar results for "Teutones" "Cimbri" (1520 without citations, 468 since 1963) and "Teutons" "Cimbri" (777 without citations, 193 since 1963). --Relisted. -- tariqabjotu 12:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC) 173.66.211.53 ( talk) 22:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Chances are better that the Teutons were ethnically celtic. Anti-Germanic historians just call them Germanic because it is beneficial for celtic people to say that the reason why the romans went to war with the celtic tribes of Europe and destroyed celts and enslaved them is because Germanic tribes sacked rome. Historians often lie to make the Celts look like they are nice people who never did anything wrong while assigning blame for everything that is considered bad to Germanic males. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.45.28.100 ( talk) 16:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Their is no real evidence that Pytheas referred to the Teutons. All his work is lost and The "Gutones" is a simplification of two manuscript variants, Guttonibus and Guionibus, which would be in the nominative case Guttones or Guiones, the Goths in the main opinion. This is not the Teutons and is only wishfull thinking it means Teuton.
HernánCortés1518 there has already been some discussion on your talk page, and now several back and forth edits.
This insistent reinsertion of your very specific speculation seems very inappropriate to me. As explained on your talk page, I think it is your own personal
WP:OR. You are claiming that the Romans were confused by their geographical term "Germania". This is clearly nonsense. The geographical term Germania clearly CAN'T be presumed to be the reason Julius Caesar called some peoples Germanic, as that concept seems to have solidified LATER (though it is true it is apparently based on Caesar's way of writing of it as being east of the Rhine). In other words Caesar himself certainly wasn't confused about the changing differences between the north and south of what is now Germany. He is one of our only sources for explaining this change! My understanding is that modern scholars like Walter Pohl suggest that Caesar compared the Cimbri and Teutons to the Germani under
Ariovistus in order to explain the similarity of the danger Rome and Gaul were facing, to the danger they had faced from the same general direction in the past. In any case, please remember that on WP we are summarizing what published sources say. You are NOT doing that. You have already mentioned that the text you are inserting "doesn't apply to the references presented since the sources themselves [...] I added a footnote without sources, until I found the time to make it in more appropriate "referenced" form.
[1] If you have no source, you should not insert something in a case like this where there are already sources. OTOH, just to be clear, I do agree with your original concern that simply asserting the Cimbri or Teutons to be Germanic, implying for most readers today that they spoke a Germanic language, is not what WP should be doing either. We should be reporting the uncertainty though, and not replacing one fake certainty with another?--
Andrew Lancaster (
talk) 06:02, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
Caesar, De Bello Gallico, 1.33: | |
That, moreover, the Germans should by degrees become accustomed to cross the Rhine , and that a great body of them should come into Gaul, he saw [would be] dangerous to the Roman people, and judged, that wild and savage men would not be likely to restrain themselves, after they had possessed themselves of all Gaul, from going forth into the province and thence marching into Italy (as the Cimbri and Teutones had done before them), particularly as the Rhone [was the sole barrier that] separated the Sequani from our province. Against which events he thought he ought to provide as speedily as possible. | Paulatim autem Germanos consuescere Rhenum transire et in Galliam magnam eorum multitudinem venire populo Romano periculosum videbat, neque sibi homines feros ac barbaros temperaturos existimabat quin, cum omnem Galliam occupavissent, ut ante Cimbri Teutonique fecissent, in provinciam exirent atque inde in Italiam contenderent [, praesertim cum Sequanos a provincia nostra Rhodanus divideret]; quibus rebus quam maturrime occurrendum putabat. |
7.77 | |
What, therefore, is my design? To do as our ancestors did in the war against the Cimbri and Teutones, [...] The Cimbri, after laying Gaul waste, and inflicting great calamities, at length departed from our country, and sought other lands; they left us our rights, laws, lands, and liberty. | Facere, quod nostri maiores nequaquam pari bello Cimbrorum Teutonumque fecerunt; [...] Depopulata Gallia Cimbri magnaque illata calamitate finibus quidem nostris aliquando excesserunt atque alias terras petierunt; iura, leges, agros, libertatem nobis reliquerunt. |
( edit conflict)Concerning the refs you are defending, we probably should put them in perspective. Eg. It seems the google books url we are using for Waldman and Mason is actually The Cambridge Medieval History from 1936, which is the next footnote (but we give that as being a 1957 work). This type of thing is common on all WP articles wherever the word Germanic is been inserted. The same types of material have been inserted in various mass edits over the years. Waldman and Mason is not a fantastic source, but more to the point it is NOT true that it disagrees with the idea that some scholars believe the Teutones were Celtic. See p.797. That source and others are among the typical bundle that are used selectively all over WP and frankly you can assume that 99% of the time they will NOT match what we report them to say. So we can't treat our past work on WP as safe to trust I'm afraid.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:07, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Da sowohl der Name der Kimbern als auch der der Teutonen in Jütland fortleben (Thy mit Hauptort Thisted n. und w., Himmerland s. und ö. des Limfjords), besteht kein Grund, die ant. Nachrichten von der Herkunft der beiden Stämme zu bezweifeln (so auch Neumann Kimbern S. 493-495). He has yet to show any sources saying that there was no migration from Jutland.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 15:54, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Since both the name of the Cimbrians as well as that of the Teutons lives on in Jutland ( Thy with the main settlement of Thysted to the north and to the west of Limfjord, Himmerland to its south and east), there is no reason to doubt the antique reports on the origin of the tribes (thus also Neumann Kimbern pp.493-495).
The name section is now containing discussion of their possible homeland, which was in the older version in the "Origins" sections. So we have some doubling up as we add things. Probably the article needs some resectioning at some point. I would say that distinct sections should eventually probably exist for Name, Possible geographical origins (where we can list the classical attestations about this topic), and evidence concerning their Language.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:23, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Daß Teutonen und Ambronen mit den K. zogen, beweist nun ebenfalls nicht zwingend, daß die K. urspr. aus deren Nachbarschaft stammten. Nach bereits angeführter Theorie könnten die K. auf ihrem Wanderzug nach Jütland gelangt sein, wo sie sich mit Teutonen und Ambronen verbanden, um von dort aus gemeinsam nach S zu wandern.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Alcaios would be interesting to add a remark in the Name section about the one personal name we have, Teutobod? I am reluctant to think he should have his own article.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
teut. Teutoboduus ist vollkommen gallisch, nicht nur in seiner ersten, sondern auch in seiner zweiten hälfte. He goes on to suggest that this could be because Gauls served as interpreters, and suggests an original equivalent to Old High German Deutbato.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 15:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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Why does "Teutones" appear so often in this article? Can I reach the Teutones at 867-5309? Shall I ask for Jenny? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neuroglider ( talk • contribs) 04:23, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Even from the quote only 300 in that given conflict, commited suicide... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.49.181.241 ( talk) 03:37, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
With respect to the Teuten / Tödden / Tattare: possibly there is a connection with the fact mentioned by Caesar in "De bello Gallico" (2,29), that the Cimbres and Teutons had left 6,000 men (then called "Atuatuci" bei the population of the region) to guard a part of their luggage in the region of Namurs. (Vittorio Ferretti, 07.03.07)
For this reason I would like to retain the comment on the possible link with these people
(Chris Geets, 07.05.30)
I've cleaned up the text to make it clearer, more direct and concise. I commented out a passage at the end, written by someone who hadn't read the article: it needs to be integrated with the text. ---- Wetman ( talk) 21:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Teuta- [hard "a"] - Tribe. 1. Germanic *theuda- [hard "a"], people, with derivative *theudiskaz, of the people, in Middle Dutch duutsch, German, of the Germans or Teutons: DUTCH, PLATIDEUTSCH. 2. Suffixed form *teut-onos [hard second "o"], "they of the tribe," in Germanic trival name *theudanoz [hard "o"], borrowed via Celtic into Latin as Teutoni [hard "o" and "i"], the Teutons: TEUTON. 3. Latin *totus [hard "o"], all, whole (?<"of the whole tribe"): TEETOTUM, TOTAL, TUTTI; FACTOTUS. [In Pok. teu- [hard "e"] 1080.] Note: linguistic convention - astericks indicate reconstructed form not attested in documents. Tesseract501 16:05, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph:
As a matter of fact the faction the writer meant was in fact the Order of the Teutonic Knights, not the Germanic tribe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.32.212.189 ( talk) 23:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________________
"Teutones"? Isn't it the Spanish word for Teutons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.119.136 ( talk) 03:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.147.131 ( talk) 00:58, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
In English, it usually refers to the Germans, another group entirely. I believe most recent scholarly sources refer to Teutones, not Teutons, and the Teutons page should probably be a dab page with Teutones to refer to the tribe best known as the Teutones. 173.66.211.53 ( talk) 00:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
"although the distinction between Celts and Teutons is not clearly realized by some earlier historians."
First, I can't figure out which "Teutons" the text refers to: the Teutones? the Germanic peoples generally [who may or may not include the Teutones]? hopefully not the modern Germans. Second, if this refers to the Teutones, then it assumes that they were not Celtic. Third, "not clearly realized by some earlier historians" is hard to make sense of. Is the whole thing saying that the earlier Roman historians didn't necessarily distinguish Celtic and Germanic peoples? And even when they did, that they didn't always do so in the same way modern historians would have done so? 173.66.211.53 ( talk) 01:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. -- BDD ( talk) 17:44, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Teutons → Teutones – Clarity/precision. "Teutones" clearly refers to the tribe. "Teutons" usually refers to the modern Germans or, sometimes, to many or most of the Germanic peoples, and rarely only refers to the Teutones themselves. To exclude the use of "Teutons" in the other sense, I suggest comparing Google scholar results for "Teutones" "Cimbri" (1520 without citations, 468 since 1963) and "Teutons" "Cimbri" (777 without citations, 193 since 1963). --Relisted. -- tariqabjotu 12:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC) 173.66.211.53 ( talk) 22:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Chances are better that the Teutons were ethnically celtic. Anti-Germanic historians just call them Germanic because it is beneficial for celtic people to say that the reason why the romans went to war with the celtic tribes of Europe and destroyed celts and enslaved them is because Germanic tribes sacked rome. Historians often lie to make the Celts look like they are nice people who never did anything wrong while assigning blame for everything that is considered bad to Germanic males. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.45.28.100 ( talk) 16:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Their is no real evidence that Pytheas referred to the Teutons. All his work is lost and The "Gutones" is a simplification of two manuscript variants, Guttonibus and Guionibus, which would be in the nominative case Guttones or Guiones, the Goths in the main opinion. This is not the Teutons and is only wishfull thinking it means Teuton.
HernánCortés1518 there has already been some discussion on your talk page, and now several back and forth edits.
This insistent reinsertion of your very specific speculation seems very inappropriate to me. As explained on your talk page, I think it is your own personal
WP:OR. You are claiming that the Romans were confused by their geographical term "Germania". This is clearly nonsense. The geographical term Germania clearly CAN'T be presumed to be the reason Julius Caesar called some peoples Germanic, as that concept seems to have solidified LATER (though it is true it is apparently based on Caesar's way of writing of it as being east of the Rhine). In other words Caesar himself certainly wasn't confused about the changing differences between the north and south of what is now Germany. He is one of our only sources for explaining this change! My understanding is that modern scholars like Walter Pohl suggest that Caesar compared the Cimbri and Teutons to the Germani under
Ariovistus in order to explain the similarity of the danger Rome and Gaul were facing, to the danger they had faced from the same general direction in the past. In any case, please remember that on WP we are summarizing what published sources say. You are NOT doing that. You have already mentioned that the text you are inserting "doesn't apply to the references presented since the sources themselves [...] I added a footnote without sources, until I found the time to make it in more appropriate "referenced" form.
[1] If you have no source, you should not insert something in a case like this where there are already sources. OTOH, just to be clear, I do agree with your original concern that simply asserting the Cimbri or Teutons to be Germanic, implying for most readers today that they spoke a Germanic language, is not what WP should be doing either. We should be reporting the uncertainty though, and not replacing one fake certainty with another?--
Andrew Lancaster (
talk) 06:02, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
Caesar, De Bello Gallico, 1.33: | |
That, moreover, the Germans should by degrees become accustomed to cross the Rhine , and that a great body of them should come into Gaul, he saw [would be] dangerous to the Roman people, and judged, that wild and savage men would not be likely to restrain themselves, after they had possessed themselves of all Gaul, from going forth into the province and thence marching into Italy (as the Cimbri and Teutones had done before them), particularly as the Rhone [was the sole barrier that] separated the Sequani from our province. Against which events he thought he ought to provide as speedily as possible. | Paulatim autem Germanos consuescere Rhenum transire et in Galliam magnam eorum multitudinem venire populo Romano periculosum videbat, neque sibi homines feros ac barbaros temperaturos existimabat quin, cum omnem Galliam occupavissent, ut ante Cimbri Teutonique fecissent, in provinciam exirent atque inde in Italiam contenderent [, praesertim cum Sequanos a provincia nostra Rhodanus divideret]; quibus rebus quam maturrime occurrendum putabat. |
7.77 | |
What, therefore, is my design? To do as our ancestors did in the war against the Cimbri and Teutones, [...] The Cimbri, after laying Gaul waste, and inflicting great calamities, at length departed from our country, and sought other lands; they left us our rights, laws, lands, and liberty. | Facere, quod nostri maiores nequaquam pari bello Cimbrorum Teutonumque fecerunt; [...] Depopulata Gallia Cimbri magnaque illata calamitate finibus quidem nostris aliquando excesserunt atque alias terras petierunt; iura, leges, agros, libertatem nobis reliquerunt. |
( edit conflict)Concerning the refs you are defending, we probably should put them in perspective. Eg. It seems the google books url we are using for Waldman and Mason is actually The Cambridge Medieval History from 1936, which is the next footnote (but we give that as being a 1957 work). This type of thing is common on all WP articles wherever the word Germanic is been inserted. The same types of material have been inserted in various mass edits over the years. Waldman and Mason is not a fantastic source, but more to the point it is NOT true that it disagrees with the idea that some scholars believe the Teutones were Celtic. See p.797. That source and others are among the typical bundle that are used selectively all over WP and frankly you can assume that 99% of the time they will NOT match what we report them to say. So we can't treat our past work on WP as safe to trust I'm afraid.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:07, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Da sowohl der Name der Kimbern als auch der der Teutonen in Jütland fortleben (Thy mit Hauptort Thisted n. und w., Himmerland s. und ö. des Limfjords), besteht kein Grund, die ant. Nachrichten von der Herkunft der beiden Stämme zu bezweifeln (so auch Neumann Kimbern S. 493-495). He has yet to show any sources saying that there was no migration from Jutland.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 15:54, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Since both the name of the Cimbrians as well as that of the Teutons lives on in Jutland ( Thy with the main settlement of Thysted to the north and to the west of Limfjord, Himmerland to its south and east), there is no reason to doubt the antique reports on the origin of the tribes (thus also Neumann Kimbern pp.493-495).
The name section is now containing discussion of their possible homeland, which was in the older version in the "Origins" sections. So we have some doubling up as we add things. Probably the article needs some resectioning at some point. I would say that distinct sections should eventually probably exist for Name, Possible geographical origins (where we can list the classical attestations about this topic), and evidence concerning their Language.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:23, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Daß Teutonen und Ambronen mit den K. zogen, beweist nun ebenfalls nicht zwingend, daß die K. urspr. aus deren Nachbarschaft stammten. Nach bereits angeführter Theorie könnten die K. auf ihrem Wanderzug nach Jütland gelangt sein, wo sie sich mit Teutonen und Ambronen verbanden, um von dort aus gemeinsam nach S zu wandern.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Alcaios would be interesting to add a remark in the Name section about the one personal name we have, Teutobod? I am reluctant to think he should have his own article.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
teut. Teutoboduus ist vollkommen gallisch, nicht nur in seiner ersten, sondern auch in seiner zweiten hälfte. He goes on to suggest that this could be because Gauls served as interpreters, and suggests an original equivalent to Old High German Deutbato.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 15:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)