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This is a Chaldean town. and I don't think that simply because Assyrian nationalists managed to get the Syriac Christians article named Assyrian people, it gives them a license to Assyrianize Chaldean articles. There is a kind of Assyrian fascism going on in Wikipedia. ܥܝܪܐܩ ( talk) 08:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry all I haven't participated in a discussion over Wikipedia before, but I am a long time lurker. Wikipedia has a wealth of information, and it is a very beautiful gift to the internet. With that being said, I recently re-read the Chaldean_Christian article and noticed that our numbers (in population) has dropped from an estimated 2.5 million to 1.4 million, and the Chaldean's that live in America (such as the metro-San Diego and Detroit areas) haven't been cited. The Chaldean Catholic Church has dioceses in at least 5 continents last time I checked, but this type of information belongs in that specific article. Sorry for this minor off-topic ranting. Now to get to the important stuff:
Shlama! We have here a great debate between what a Chaldean is and what an Assyrian is. A little background, I'm just a 23 year old Chaldo-Assyrian born and raised in the Detroit, MI area, the largest Chaldean community in North America. Growing up I have always called myself Chaldean, and so does 99% of the community. But what exactly is a Chaldean - can it be an ethnic group, a nationality, what is it exactly? It can't be a nationality, there is no nation (in the sense that we don't have our own borders and rule our own government... there is definitely a nation in a sense of community.) Can it be considered a race? I haven't read the term 'Chaldean' being used to describe the Aramaic-speaking Christians of the Fertile Crescent during pre-Islamic periods. Our race isn't 'Chaldean', it isn't 'Arab' as Arabs generally come from the Arabian desert (read: Arabian peninsula, southern Iraq and surrounding areas.) The basis for the Chaldean argument doesn't add up - we are not descendants of the Ancient Chaldea empire - this empire is like saying the Soviet's were not Russian. If the Chaldean's in that time were considered anything, it would have been Assyrian anyways. All who want to call themselves Chaldean live amongst the Nineveh Plains. This is the area of the Assyrian Empire, not to mention a province of great empires of the past (the most recent to my knowledge the province of Asuristan, with its boundaries from Mosul to Erbil, which is exactly where you'll find plenty of Chaldeans!)
You know where I am going with this - we are Assyrian by ethnicity/race. This is the only thing that makes sense. My parents are both from Alqosh, although my dad was raised in Baghdad. He said he never once called himself Chaldean back in Iraq. He didn't grow up in the Church like many did, but regardless Arab nationalism was imposed upon the majority of peoples. He was born two months after King Faisal II took office. He tells me they would call themselves Christian, so if anything they were considered Christian Arabs. It doesn't seem like Assyrians were recognized as indigenous peoples as they were now, and as Iraq was a newer nation with the Ottoman mandate, Arab nationalism was probably more important to the ruling party.
So with this current Assyrian Nationalism/Fascism accusations that are being made, please understand that this is a breakthrough point for our culture, never before were we included in the constitution, never before had our community had the chance to express itself. Finding out who we really are, and where we come from, is very important.
Other than using history to make the Chaldean = Assyrian connection, lets think about other things within our culture. As a Chaldean, do you believe you speak your language purely? Which word do you use for 'doctor'? Do you not mix Arabic with your Sureth? Besides this, from where does our liturgy come from? Is it not an Eastern Orthodox liturgy? Don't you ever think, how come every single Chaldean is Catholic? Does it make sense that a complete race/ethnicity follows a particular denomination of one religion? The Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics - the split between one church are the same people. There is nothing separating these two groups, that's like telling someone they're not American anymore because they're Republican and you're for the Democratic party.
Again everybody, there is no such thing as Assyrian Fascism and whatnot. This is the time for the truth, for us to find out who we really are. I am a Chaldean Catholic, born and raised in America, but as I've connected the dots... I am Assyrian. This is the truth, and this is what makes sense.
Syriacscholar ( talk) 13:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
To all so called Assyrians, this is not the place for your spams. You have your own villages, go spam there. We, the people of Tel Skuf, will take care of presenting our village, and we'll make sure it will remain Chaldean. Tel Skuf will never become Assyrian. If you decide to step on our toes again, we will do the same to you and we'll make sure to spam on your articles. You have been warned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tisqupnaia2010 ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Chaldeans are NOT a sub-group of Assyrians. Just by bullying Wikipedia, you won't make it a fact. The fact is that these are two separate groups. Here is an advice: To unite people, you don't eliminate 80% of them. -- Tisqupnaia2010 ( talk) 20:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
To Mr. Shmayo ----
About Assyrian and Chaldeans, see my answer Talk:Chaldean Christians#Chaldean and Assyrian nationalists. About "Suraya/Suryoyo", your topic below. Assyrian people is the most common name on our people, so that's why the article is called so. And "Suraya" is enough proof (even if more is written in your topic below). I know that the people of Tel Skuf belong to the Chaldean Catholic Church, and their ethnicity is Assyrian. Shmayo ( talk) 18:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
As I've told you a several times "Syrian" is derived from "Assyrian" (see sources below). Yes, we were called Assyrians even before the church split. For example, in the 6th century there was 13 munks who visited Georgia who was called the "thirteen Assyrian fathers" (in Georgian atsamet'i asureli mamani) [2] [3](commonly known, just search for more sources about them). The Christian writer Tatian called himself Assyrian. [4] The Syriac Orthodox patriarch Michael The Great said that we are Assyrian, and even said that Syrians comes from Assyrians [5] And in a letter from Pope Paul V to the Persian king Shah Abbas I 1612 he wrote: "Those in particular who are called Assyrians or Jacobites and inhabit Isfahan will be compelled to sell their very children in order to pay the heavy tax you have imposed on them, unless You take pity on their misfortune."" [6] ( Jacobite meaning Syriac Orthodox). So, there you had some neutral sources telling us people where called Assyrians. I'm pretty sure there is plenty more. Shmayo ( talk) 22:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I have protected the article from editing in order to stop the edit warring that was going on here. I could just as easily have handed out a few blocks to the warring parties. Please engage in a civilized discussion here, and keep the ethnic/religious discrimination out of it. Pursue some form of dispute resolution if needed. If edit warring starts back up after the protection expires, all participants should expect to be blocked. Follow the bold, revert, discuss cycle as opposed to edit warring and that won't have to happen. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
You are historically wrong. There is no such thing as Assyrian ethnicity. The people who identify themselves as Assyrians are in no way related to the ancient Assyrians. The two names, "Assyrians" and "Chaldeans", have been given after the Church of the East split. Those who united with the Catholic Church became Chaldeans, and the others became Assyrians. Thus both parties have equal status that is separated only by their religious affiliation and NOT by their ethnicity. They could both belong to the Ancient Assyrians or the Ancient Chaldeans, but no one can tell for sure. Some could argue that since these people are living in northern Iraq, they must be Assyrian (relating them to the lands of Assyria); however, you should know that Chaldea in 612 BC destroyed Nineveh and the Assyrian empire. In its place, Chaldeans set up a new empire. So, those people living in the north could as well be Chaldeans. Thus, your argument has no basis! The irony, however, is that those who did not unite with the Catholic Church set up a page with the title "Assyrian People", which ignores all History and claims things that we both know are wrong but still expect Wikipedians to believe it. Moreover, you keep on relating to it as if it is the Bible!! ..... instead of presenting false information, perhaps it is time for you and your people to start acknowledging others. A good start would be stating your real identity (User: Chaldean), rather than masking it with the name: Iraqi. -- Tisqupnaia2010 ( talk) 08:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
There is evidences showing that Assyrians continued living in the area, for example: This is what Cyrus II said: "From Nineveh, Assura and Susa, Akkad, Eshnunna, the towns Zamban, Me-turnu, Der as well as the region of the Gutium, I returned to these sacred cities on the other side of the Tigris the sanctuaries of which have been ruins for a long time, the images which used to live therein and established for them permanent sanctuaries. I also gathered all their former inhabitants and returned them to their habitations." [7], and Assyrians can be found in a list of peoples living in the Persian empire. [8] I've done more research regarding this! The etymology of Syria/Syrian is clear. If you want to call it "the worst argument", do so, but please read all these and then say something about the etymology of the word: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]. I'm pretty sure you'll understand that it's clear to most people that the orgin of the word is Assyria/Assyrian. What do you know what I'm calling myself? I call myself Suraya/Suryoyo, which I see as a synonym to Atouraya/Othuroyo. And to your theory about "the men from the mountain", I can just laugh about that. Atouraya/Othuroyo is spelled "ܐܬܘܪܝܐ" , with "taw" (ܬ) not with "teth" (ܜ). Mountain however, is spelled with teth (ܜܘܪܐ). So there is no truth in that. And Suraya/Suryoyo does absolutely not mean christian. The word for christian is Mshekhaya/Mshihoyo. Of course I understand what you mean, because Suraya/Suryoyo almost became a synonym to christian for our people in the home land, this because the people living next to us where muslims. So it's not strange that you connect Suraya/Suryoyo with christian, but to say that the word actually mean christian is so wrong. I can't remember hearing anybody calling the christians living closest to us, the Armenians, Suraya/Suryoyo. Of course this because this word doesn't mean chritian. Please again, read the sources I posted. Shmayo ( talk) 17:54, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
"The people of the Plain of Mosul are ethnically East Syrians" See there! You said it yourself! I just gave you five very, very good sources showing you the etymology of that word. But of course you ignore that. "who believes that current day Assyrians are descendants of the Ancient Assyrians." Then tell me what we are my friend! I proved Assyrians survived fall of Nineveh and that they were still living in the Nineveh plains. The same place, same language and we are calling ourselves Suraye/Suryoye, which I've already explained the etymology. How can we be anything else?! And yes, I can give you proof that we've been called Assyrians before the church split and before Henry Layarad was born. But I want to hear from you? Are we East Syrians as you said? Well good, I've explained (with excellent sources) where "Syrians" come from. Shmayo ( talk) 21:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia standards we will use the term which is used most, and it has come to Wikipedias attention that the term "Assyrian" is used more in the English language worldwide than the "Chaldean" or "Aramean" or "Syriac" ones. Therefore we shall have Tel Skuf as an Assyrian village belonging to the Chaldean Church. Religious denomiations do not make you another distinct people. E.g. Brazilians who are Roman Catholic are not anywhere Roman in ethnicity but only Roman Catholic in religion. In the same way the Chaldeans are only Chaldeans by faith and Assyrians in ethnicity. In the recent elections the Assyrian Democratic Movement managed to win 3/5 seats and yet we have a religious Chaldean majority, how do you explain this even though thousands of votes for the ADM were thrown? I am an Assyrian of the Syriac Orthodox Church and we need to accept facts and embrace true nationalism. By the way, most Chaldeans in Europe are Assyrians. --
Yohanun (
talk)
23:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Stop saying all Chaldean Catholic identify themselves as an distict ethnic group. As Yohanun said, ADM won in many Chaldean Catholiv villages (see election result). And again, read US census, we are called Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs [16] Shmayo ( talk) 14:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
You know that Chaldean Catholics wouldn't vote for ADM if they didn't identify themselves as Assyrian. There were pro-Chaldean parties, why didn't they vote for them? So stop saying no Chaldean Catholic identify himself Assyrian, because there are many. And again, just ask User:Chaldean. Shmayo ( talk) 14:38, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I can not understand that you're actually saying those words. Who are these Assyrian terrorist?! All Christians in Iraq are oppressed, by Muslims. They really don't oppress each other. Nestorians, Chaldean Catholics, Syriac Orhodoxes/Catholics are oppressed becaused they are Christians, why are you making it look like something else? You're just trying to get support here, so absurd. Shmayo ( talk) 19:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
The only thing that Assyrians and Chaldeans disagree on is their ethnicity. I believe that once anything relating to the ethnicity is removed, there would be no warring.
What I propose is that since both sides agree that the people of
Tel Skuf are
Chaldean Christians who are comonly known as Chaldeans, we should make the intro read as follows:
Tel Skuf (Syriac: ܬܠܐ ܙܩܝܦܐ Tilla Zqeepa; Arabic: تللسقف) is a town located approximately 19 miles (about 28 Kilometres) north of
Mosul. Its population is estimated at 7,000, all being
Chaldean members of the Chaldean Catholic Church.
I have made two changes to remove any notion of ethnicity. First, I removed the first Chaldean word from the first line so that no ethnic identity is given. Second, I have corrected "vast majority" since all are Chaldean Christians. Also, the link states the common name of Chaldean Christians and it directs viewers to the right page explaining the denomination of the people of Tel Skuf. Of course this should be backed by keeping the current
Chaldean Christians article the way it is, by reversing Assyrian nationalists inputs to keep it focused on Church denominations. --
Tisqupnaia2010 (
talk)
00:43, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Why do you leave out the ethnicity? As Taivo says, it looks like Chaldeans are an ethnic group now when you're saying "Chaldeans who are members of...", so as the reached conscious on the name of the people it should be " Assyrians members of the Chaldean Catholic Church", which both show their ethnicity and which religious group they are members of. And just to show that this is just to remove things that you don't like, see this sentence which you edited: "to the hill next to it that contains the ruins of an ancient Chaldean town." Is this a joke? Clearly shows what your interest are. Shmayo ( talk) 14:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
My answer to the proposed change was Why do you leave out the ethnicity?. Shmayo ( talk) 15:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Me and the people who have actually discussed this topic in the Talk:Assyrian people want the ethnic name to be "Assyrians". Just because most of the people are Chaldean Catholic it doesn't mean that it should say "* is a Chaldean Catholic village", just as articles on Kurdish villages doesn't say "* is a Sunni Islamic village." Shmayo ( talk) 15:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
** Nothing else to be Said **
Dear Mr.
Beeblebrox,
After the excellent work of
Prof. Taivo who was willing to read Archives and go through his own research to give his own input on the matter, and after we have been honored to have
Dr. Wilmshurst himself to give his most appreciated input on the article (
see here), I must add one last thing. When I didn't have any sources (beside my word and that of my people) I offered Mr. Shmayo giving up on my Chaldean ethnicity by excluding it from the article and keeping only the reference to the religious denomination of the village to stop warring. However, he refused my generous offer. Now, Thank God, with the help of two generous gentlemen who were willing to give my humble village their precious time, we know and have proved that this is a Chaldean village. It is for this that I must now refuse giving up on my ethnicity. I have to ask you to please keep the intro exactly the way it is in the article (after adding the correct name). This is only to teach Mr. Shmayo that such misleading attempts against ethnic affiliations of others are not appreciated in Wikipedia. He did seem to know before hand that there was no consensus regarding his claim about Chaldean Ethnicity.
My deepest thanks to you,
Prof. Taivo, and
Dr. Wilmshurst. --
Tisqupnaia2010 (
talk)
03:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
"And just to show that this is just to remove things that you don't like, see this sentence which you edited: "to the hill next to it that contains the ruins of an ancient Chaldean town." Is this a joke? Clearly shows what your interest are" I wrote that before (bad temperament, sorry). But I'm reverting it to the old right. Shmayo ( talk) 13:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm reading this and wondering, "Why do the Assyrians want to call the Chaldeans 'Assyrian'?" Why is it so important? Usually, the reason why one ethnic group wants to appropriate another is for political reasons that have nothing to do with Wikipedia. I see this in Ukrainian articles all the time, where Ukrainian nationalists want to remove all reference to the Russian language even in articles about cities where nearly the entire population speaks Russian as their native language. If the majority of Chaldeans want to be known as "Chaldean", then Wikipedia should reflect that fact. It's all a question of numbers. Here in the Wikipedia world, the fundamental question is "Do the majority of Chaldeans (in the real world) want to be known as 'Chaldean' or 'Assyrian'?" What are the sources? I don't want to hear, "X says he wants to be known as an Assyrian" or "Y says he wants to be known as a Chaldean". Are there any sources that talk about what the majority of Chaldeans want to be called? The U.S. Census doesn't actually support Shmayo's view that all Assyrians, Chaldeans, and Syriacs are "Assyrian". It supports the view that all three are distinctly labelled and that the differences between them aren't relevant for counting United States citizens. It has nothing to do with facts on the ground in Iraq. So, very briefly, what is the reason you are fighting the Chaldeans, Shmayo? Why do you care? Why do you want them to be Assyrians? ( Taivo ( talk) 01:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
Then what kind of evidence do you want, Taivo? If the only pro-Assyrian party won most Christian seats in a country were most Christians are Chaldean Catholic then isn't obvious what they consider themselves to be?! Please also read the discussion I and Tisqopnaya2010(?) had about the word Suraya. Shmayo ( talk) 15:31, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Who is anybody to say that Chaldeans wants to be called anything? Do you mean like an historian saying Chaldean Catholics are Assyrians? Because otherwise I really don't know what you're asking for. And in the same way, find a source saying Chaldean Catholics want to be called ethnical Chaldeans. I'm sure we can't find the source you're looking for (if there isn't a person that have not asked all Chaldean Catholics what they identify themselves as, lol). So looking at the talk page the Assyrian name should be used as an ethnic name. How can you even say there is no consensus there? Please check the archive and see the voting about this. It's been discussed! And even if Talk:Assyrian people isn't an "official" page to discuss the whole name controversy, this is the page that allways have been used. One thing you also should now is that many Chaldean nationalist mean that the whole people (members of CCC, ACOE, SOC) are Chaldeans. Of course this isn't spread that wide because the people saying we're Chaldeans aren't many. Again, don't forget that the majority of us are Chaldean Catholic, but still the organisations and parties promoting the Assyrian name are the biggest. Shmayo ( talk) 16:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
"First, if there is a group of people who call themselves "Chaldean", that's the default position." And who have said that they want to be called Chaldeans? Their old patriarch (Mar Raphael J Bidawid) have stated that their ethnicity is Assyrian [17](an interview: 1) Yes, religiously they are Chaldean Catholic (a name the pope gave the church) but the they are really not related to the Chaldeans of Chaldea. Assyriologists have even stated that modern day Chaldeans are Assyrians. [18] You must at the same time understand that it's a difference in these parties, so it's a bad comparison. ADM is an ethnic Assyrian party. In archive 9 you can see voting and long discussion about this. Of course there still are some people saying "we are Arameans", "we are Chaldeans", etc. but Assyrians is the common name. See whole archive 9. And something I've tried to explain a several times now. See the artice Assyrian people, it's actually about the whole Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac people. All the flags are there and so on. But again, it's called Assyrian people because it's the common name. Shmayo ( talk) 20:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Ironically, as members of the Chaldean Catholic Church established in 1553, many modern Assyrians originating from central Assyria now identify themselves as “Chaldeans”, a term inevitably associated with the Babylonian dynasty that destroyed Nineveh and the Assyrian Empire!
...it's actually about the whole Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac people. All the flags are there and so on. But again, it's called Assyrian people because it's the common name. That is very important to remember. Several articles about an independent "Syriac-Aramaic people" have been created, they've been removed, this because it's have been discussed that they should be under one article. The admin who have removed some of these and several times said that it's the same group is User:Dbachmann. He have been active in many discussions regarding this. Many have been held at the removed articles' talk pages. Shmayo ( talk) 13:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I didn't say he want to unite the people under the name Assyrian. He say and have done many times that it is the same people. Now just because they followed WP:common name, does mean they want Assyrians to be the umbrella name. Of course there are people calling themselves Chaldeans. But he didn't mean that all Chaldean Catholics do so. Chaldeans don't want to be called "Assyrian", Syriacs don't want to be called "Assyrian", only the Assyrians want to be called "Assyrian". Now this is so false. I said it before, myself I'm a "Syriac" (member of the Syriac Orthodox Church), but I see myself as an ethnic Assyrian, and so do all my relatives. Most of our people in Sweden are Syriac Orthodox, still there is a football team (started by Syriac Orthodoxes) called Assyriska FF, an Assyrian association started by Syriac Orthodoxes and so on. The same with Chaldean Catholics. I've seen Chaldean Catholic Churches with the Assyrian flag inside, and some even called "Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church". Shmayo ( talk) 14:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
It did not. Again, it's an ethnic party, and it won in most Chaldean Catholic villages. Because we are not getting a better source than that on what Chaldean Catholics consider themselves as. Shmayo ( talk) 16:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, there are people identifying themselves Chaldeans, I know that, Taivo. Parpola is not saying all do so, some of them. Still I haven't seen any source saying Chaldean Catholics want to be known as Chaldeans ethnically. And then don't forget that many villages are not 100% Chaldean Catholic just because the majority is. So calling every villages with 50%+ for Chaldean Christian villages is not acceptable. There is an significant Nestorian population in these villages too. Shmayo ( talk) 17:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
No, why should they be called after the religious denomination? You've really not understood that there are many Chaldean Catholics and Syriac Orthodoxes (like me) who call themselves Assyrians. Of course we can not find a source saying "these people identify themselves as *", who is anybody to say something like that. I've already shown that there are associations and organisation and other with the Assyrian name started by Syriac Orthodoxes and Chaldean Catholics. The people who've contribued most to the Assyrian articles on Wikipedia are Chaldean Catholics. Just because some people recently have started to call themselves ethnic Chaldeans doesn't mean everything here have to change. Shmayo ( talk) 21:01, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
And Tiscopnaia2010(?) said it himself in the begining "The people of the Plain of Mosul are ethnically East Syrians [In Syriac; Suraye Madenkhaye]" And the etymology of Syria/Syrian/Suraye we know. Shmayo ( talk) 21:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
And if the old patriarch himself said he was Assyrian [19], how can people even say that "no Chaldean call himslef Assyrian"? Shmayo ( talk) 21:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
The changing from Chaldean to Assyrian is to show the ethnicity and not religious. What is Assyrian? What is an Assyrian article? The people belong to the C C Church, Nestorian Church and the Syriac church, what is Assyrian?! To say "that villages is mostly Chaldean, but the other one Assyrian" is wrong. How did Assyrian become a religious term when it have described this people in all these years. The term Chaldean nowdays do not have with ethnicity to do, many agree with this [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25](some actually saying the members of the Chaldean Catholic Church are Assyrians). Shmayo ( talk) 23:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
"“In 1551, the Assyrian community refused to accept the appointment of Shim’un VII Denka as Patriarch of the Church of the East. They sent a monk, Youhanna Sulaqa, to Rome, where he was appointed Patriarch of Babylon and head of the first church in the Middle East to unite with Rome. While the name Assyrian refers to an ethnic identity, the name Chaldean refers to the (Catholic) ‘rite’. He later died as a martyr in Diyarbekr (Eastern Turkey) at the hands of the anti-Catholic community." [26]"“Today’s Chaldean term is new to us, it came from the west, and from Rome precisely. You people, the inhabitants of the above mentioned villages are originally Assyrians, descendants of the Assyrians of antiquity. I, for example, was born in Mosul, and belong to the Chaldean Church, yet I am Assyrian and we all are Assyrians, being Syrians, Chaldeans, or Maronites.” [27]"Chaldean is the name given to those Assyrians who in 1552, led by one of their bishops, accepted the authority of Rome. They retain to a certain extent their own ecclesiastical constitutions and discipline, and have within their fold approximately 70% of the Assyrians." [28]"“The Portuguese found an Assyrian Church in India in Malabar in the 16th century. It was reunited with Rome in 1599 and strongly Latinized. In 1830 a Catholic patriarch, called “Chaldean” was created in Mesopotamia, so there now are some Assyrians in union with Rome.” [29]. Some quotes from them, as you asked for. The translation to what the patriarch said: "I personally think that these different names serve to add confusion. The original name of our Church was the ‘Church of the East’ ... When a portion of the Church of the East became Catholic, the name given was ‘Chaldean’ based on the Magi kings who came from the land of the Chaldean, to Bethlehem. The name ‘Chaldean’ does not represent an ethnicity... We have to separate what is ethnicity and what is religion... I myself, my sect is Chaldean, but ethnically, I am Assyrian." Shmayo ( talk) 11:19, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
[30] [31] [32]. If Bahnam Abu al-Soof is an Assyrian nationalist I don't know, but he is professor of archaeology, therefore I thought it could be usable. I've left out that source now. And something more interesting is the source used in this article. The could can be found here. Read the intro (forth page) and see how he uses Chaldean as an religious term. And several times in the book he uses the terms Nestorian and Chaldean together, which again shows that he is refering to it as an religious term. And many other time he is uses Syriac Orthodox and Chaldean together again showing it's a religious term. Shmayo ( talk) 13:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Maybe not the last one I wrote, but the one above. Clearly shows that the term "Chaldean" is used to describe a religious group. Shmayo ( talk) 14:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't want to get involved in the ongoing debate on whether Tel Skuf counts as an Assyrian or a Chaldean town, as these absurd disputes are only of interest to Assyrian nationalists, but I would like to suggest that you choose a more familiar English name for the purposes of a Wikipedia encyclopedia article. Ever since Badger's time, the town has been known as Tel Isqof to Europeans and Americans. Most people who consult Wikipedia for information on Tel Isqof will have found its name in one of the classic European studies of the Church of the East (Badger, Cutts, Wigram, etc. in the nineteenth century, and more recently Fiey and Wilmshurst). I think Tel Isqof is more user-friendly than Tel Skuf. By all means give all its aliases in the lead paragraph: Tel Zqipa, Tesqopa, etc.
For what it's worth, Tel Isqof is a Chaldean town, and has been since the eighteenth century (Wilmshurst, Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 234–6).
Beam me up, Scottie, I think it's time to go.
Djwilms ( talk) 02:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
As ܥܝܪܐܩ suggested, we probably should rename this article to the correct spelling of the commonly used names: either Tel Isqof or Tel Eskof. I personally prefer the first, for it is closer to the way the name is pronounced in Arabic. -- Tisqupnaia2010 ( talk) 21:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Which ancient empire controlled the area around Tel Isqof? The Neo-Babylonian or the Assyrian? Have the ruins of the town been excavated and when are they dated? ( Taivo ( talk) 14:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC))
This area is the Assyrian heartland. Assyrians didn't just controll the area as they did with Babylon or any other city far away from the heartland, this was the heartland of Assyria. So of course Nineveh and the area around was founded by Assyrians. And it's not even really clear if it was the Medes or the Babylonians who controlled the area later, but it really doesn't matter. If this isn't Assyrian ruins, then there are no Assyrian ruins. But sure, I can agree on just "ancient village". Shmayo ( talk) 10:55, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
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There seems to be general agreement that "Chaldean Christian" is an acceptable term in most cases of usage. When "Chaldean Christian" occurs in an article as the first (and second) usage, then it can be shortened to "Chaldean" in subsequent usages without implying that it is something different. However, the short form cannot be used as the first (and only) reference in an article. This is standard practice for names in Wikipedia that have long and short forms, especially when the short form can be controversial when used alone. The first reference in this article must remain "Chaldean Christian". ( Taivo ( talk) 16:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC))
Could anyone supply a source for the alleged Mongol attack on Tel Isqof in 1436? There was an attack in 1235, and another attack in 1508, but not (as far as I am aware) one in 1436. I suspect that the date is wrong, and that this passage refers to the attack in 1235 commemorated by Giwargis Warda.
If there WAS an attack in 1436, it would represent a very important addition to our scanty knowledge of the history of the Church of the East in the fifteenth century ...
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This is a Chaldean town. and I don't think that simply because Assyrian nationalists managed to get the Syriac Christians article named Assyrian people, it gives them a license to Assyrianize Chaldean articles. There is a kind of Assyrian fascism going on in Wikipedia. ܥܝܪܐܩ ( talk) 08:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry all I haven't participated in a discussion over Wikipedia before, but I am a long time lurker. Wikipedia has a wealth of information, and it is a very beautiful gift to the internet. With that being said, I recently re-read the Chaldean_Christian article and noticed that our numbers (in population) has dropped from an estimated 2.5 million to 1.4 million, and the Chaldean's that live in America (such as the metro-San Diego and Detroit areas) haven't been cited. The Chaldean Catholic Church has dioceses in at least 5 continents last time I checked, but this type of information belongs in that specific article. Sorry for this minor off-topic ranting. Now to get to the important stuff:
Shlama! We have here a great debate between what a Chaldean is and what an Assyrian is. A little background, I'm just a 23 year old Chaldo-Assyrian born and raised in the Detroit, MI area, the largest Chaldean community in North America. Growing up I have always called myself Chaldean, and so does 99% of the community. But what exactly is a Chaldean - can it be an ethnic group, a nationality, what is it exactly? It can't be a nationality, there is no nation (in the sense that we don't have our own borders and rule our own government... there is definitely a nation in a sense of community.) Can it be considered a race? I haven't read the term 'Chaldean' being used to describe the Aramaic-speaking Christians of the Fertile Crescent during pre-Islamic periods. Our race isn't 'Chaldean', it isn't 'Arab' as Arabs generally come from the Arabian desert (read: Arabian peninsula, southern Iraq and surrounding areas.) The basis for the Chaldean argument doesn't add up - we are not descendants of the Ancient Chaldea empire - this empire is like saying the Soviet's were not Russian. If the Chaldean's in that time were considered anything, it would have been Assyrian anyways. All who want to call themselves Chaldean live amongst the Nineveh Plains. This is the area of the Assyrian Empire, not to mention a province of great empires of the past (the most recent to my knowledge the province of Asuristan, with its boundaries from Mosul to Erbil, which is exactly where you'll find plenty of Chaldeans!)
You know where I am going with this - we are Assyrian by ethnicity/race. This is the only thing that makes sense. My parents are both from Alqosh, although my dad was raised in Baghdad. He said he never once called himself Chaldean back in Iraq. He didn't grow up in the Church like many did, but regardless Arab nationalism was imposed upon the majority of peoples. He was born two months after King Faisal II took office. He tells me they would call themselves Christian, so if anything they were considered Christian Arabs. It doesn't seem like Assyrians were recognized as indigenous peoples as they were now, and as Iraq was a newer nation with the Ottoman mandate, Arab nationalism was probably more important to the ruling party.
So with this current Assyrian Nationalism/Fascism accusations that are being made, please understand that this is a breakthrough point for our culture, never before were we included in the constitution, never before had our community had the chance to express itself. Finding out who we really are, and where we come from, is very important.
Other than using history to make the Chaldean = Assyrian connection, lets think about other things within our culture. As a Chaldean, do you believe you speak your language purely? Which word do you use for 'doctor'? Do you not mix Arabic with your Sureth? Besides this, from where does our liturgy come from? Is it not an Eastern Orthodox liturgy? Don't you ever think, how come every single Chaldean is Catholic? Does it make sense that a complete race/ethnicity follows a particular denomination of one religion? The Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics - the split between one church are the same people. There is nothing separating these two groups, that's like telling someone they're not American anymore because they're Republican and you're for the Democratic party.
Again everybody, there is no such thing as Assyrian Fascism and whatnot. This is the time for the truth, for us to find out who we really are. I am a Chaldean Catholic, born and raised in America, but as I've connected the dots... I am Assyrian. This is the truth, and this is what makes sense.
Syriacscholar ( talk) 13:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
To all so called Assyrians, this is not the place for your spams. You have your own villages, go spam there. We, the people of Tel Skuf, will take care of presenting our village, and we'll make sure it will remain Chaldean. Tel Skuf will never become Assyrian. If you decide to step on our toes again, we will do the same to you and we'll make sure to spam on your articles. You have been warned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tisqupnaia2010 ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Chaldeans are NOT a sub-group of Assyrians. Just by bullying Wikipedia, you won't make it a fact. The fact is that these are two separate groups. Here is an advice: To unite people, you don't eliminate 80% of them. -- Tisqupnaia2010 ( talk) 20:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
To Mr. Shmayo ----
About Assyrian and Chaldeans, see my answer Talk:Chaldean Christians#Chaldean and Assyrian nationalists. About "Suraya/Suryoyo", your topic below. Assyrian people is the most common name on our people, so that's why the article is called so. And "Suraya" is enough proof (even if more is written in your topic below). I know that the people of Tel Skuf belong to the Chaldean Catholic Church, and their ethnicity is Assyrian. Shmayo ( talk) 18:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
As I've told you a several times "Syrian" is derived from "Assyrian" (see sources below). Yes, we were called Assyrians even before the church split. For example, in the 6th century there was 13 munks who visited Georgia who was called the "thirteen Assyrian fathers" (in Georgian atsamet'i asureli mamani) [2] [3](commonly known, just search for more sources about them). The Christian writer Tatian called himself Assyrian. [4] The Syriac Orthodox patriarch Michael The Great said that we are Assyrian, and even said that Syrians comes from Assyrians [5] And in a letter from Pope Paul V to the Persian king Shah Abbas I 1612 he wrote: "Those in particular who are called Assyrians or Jacobites and inhabit Isfahan will be compelled to sell their very children in order to pay the heavy tax you have imposed on them, unless You take pity on their misfortune."" [6] ( Jacobite meaning Syriac Orthodox). So, there you had some neutral sources telling us people where called Assyrians. I'm pretty sure there is plenty more. Shmayo ( talk) 22:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I have protected the article from editing in order to stop the edit warring that was going on here. I could just as easily have handed out a few blocks to the warring parties. Please engage in a civilized discussion here, and keep the ethnic/religious discrimination out of it. Pursue some form of dispute resolution if needed. If edit warring starts back up after the protection expires, all participants should expect to be blocked. Follow the bold, revert, discuss cycle as opposed to edit warring and that won't have to happen. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
You are historically wrong. There is no such thing as Assyrian ethnicity. The people who identify themselves as Assyrians are in no way related to the ancient Assyrians. The two names, "Assyrians" and "Chaldeans", have been given after the Church of the East split. Those who united with the Catholic Church became Chaldeans, and the others became Assyrians. Thus both parties have equal status that is separated only by their religious affiliation and NOT by their ethnicity. They could both belong to the Ancient Assyrians or the Ancient Chaldeans, but no one can tell for sure. Some could argue that since these people are living in northern Iraq, they must be Assyrian (relating them to the lands of Assyria); however, you should know that Chaldea in 612 BC destroyed Nineveh and the Assyrian empire. In its place, Chaldeans set up a new empire. So, those people living in the north could as well be Chaldeans. Thus, your argument has no basis! The irony, however, is that those who did not unite with the Catholic Church set up a page with the title "Assyrian People", which ignores all History and claims things that we both know are wrong but still expect Wikipedians to believe it. Moreover, you keep on relating to it as if it is the Bible!! ..... instead of presenting false information, perhaps it is time for you and your people to start acknowledging others. A good start would be stating your real identity (User: Chaldean), rather than masking it with the name: Iraqi. -- Tisqupnaia2010 ( talk) 08:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
There is evidences showing that Assyrians continued living in the area, for example: This is what Cyrus II said: "From Nineveh, Assura and Susa, Akkad, Eshnunna, the towns Zamban, Me-turnu, Der as well as the region of the Gutium, I returned to these sacred cities on the other side of the Tigris the sanctuaries of which have been ruins for a long time, the images which used to live therein and established for them permanent sanctuaries. I also gathered all their former inhabitants and returned them to their habitations." [7], and Assyrians can be found in a list of peoples living in the Persian empire. [8] I've done more research regarding this! The etymology of Syria/Syrian is clear. If you want to call it "the worst argument", do so, but please read all these and then say something about the etymology of the word: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]. I'm pretty sure you'll understand that it's clear to most people that the orgin of the word is Assyria/Assyrian. What do you know what I'm calling myself? I call myself Suraya/Suryoyo, which I see as a synonym to Atouraya/Othuroyo. And to your theory about "the men from the mountain", I can just laugh about that. Atouraya/Othuroyo is spelled "ܐܬܘܪܝܐ" , with "taw" (ܬ) not with "teth" (ܜ). Mountain however, is spelled with teth (ܜܘܪܐ). So there is no truth in that. And Suraya/Suryoyo does absolutely not mean christian. The word for christian is Mshekhaya/Mshihoyo. Of course I understand what you mean, because Suraya/Suryoyo almost became a synonym to christian for our people in the home land, this because the people living next to us where muslims. So it's not strange that you connect Suraya/Suryoyo with christian, but to say that the word actually mean christian is so wrong. I can't remember hearing anybody calling the christians living closest to us, the Armenians, Suraya/Suryoyo. Of course this because this word doesn't mean chritian. Please again, read the sources I posted. Shmayo ( talk) 17:54, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
"The people of the Plain of Mosul are ethnically East Syrians" See there! You said it yourself! I just gave you five very, very good sources showing you the etymology of that word. But of course you ignore that. "who believes that current day Assyrians are descendants of the Ancient Assyrians." Then tell me what we are my friend! I proved Assyrians survived fall of Nineveh and that they were still living in the Nineveh plains. The same place, same language and we are calling ourselves Suraye/Suryoye, which I've already explained the etymology. How can we be anything else?! And yes, I can give you proof that we've been called Assyrians before the church split and before Henry Layarad was born. But I want to hear from you? Are we East Syrians as you said? Well good, I've explained (with excellent sources) where "Syrians" come from. Shmayo ( talk) 21:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia standards we will use the term which is used most, and it has come to Wikipedias attention that the term "Assyrian" is used more in the English language worldwide than the "Chaldean" or "Aramean" or "Syriac" ones. Therefore we shall have Tel Skuf as an Assyrian village belonging to the Chaldean Church. Religious denomiations do not make you another distinct people. E.g. Brazilians who are Roman Catholic are not anywhere Roman in ethnicity but only Roman Catholic in religion. In the same way the Chaldeans are only Chaldeans by faith and Assyrians in ethnicity. In the recent elections the Assyrian Democratic Movement managed to win 3/5 seats and yet we have a religious Chaldean majority, how do you explain this even though thousands of votes for the ADM were thrown? I am an Assyrian of the Syriac Orthodox Church and we need to accept facts and embrace true nationalism. By the way, most Chaldeans in Europe are Assyrians. --
Yohanun (
talk)
23:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Stop saying all Chaldean Catholic identify themselves as an distict ethnic group. As Yohanun said, ADM won in many Chaldean Catholiv villages (see election result). And again, read US census, we are called Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs [16] Shmayo ( talk) 14:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
You know that Chaldean Catholics wouldn't vote for ADM if they didn't identify themselves as Assyrian. There were pro-Chaldean parties, why didn't they vote for them? So stop saying no Chaldean Catholic identify himself Assyrian, because there are many. And again, just ask User:Chaldean. Shmayo ( talk) 14:38, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I can not understand that you're actually saying those words. Who are these Assyrian terrorist?! All Christians in Iraq are oppressed, by Muslims. They really don't oppress each other. Nestorians, Chaldean Catholics, Syriac Orhodoxes/Catholics are oppressed becaused they are Christians, why are you making it look like something else? You're just trying to get support here, so absurd. Shmayo ( talk) 19:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
The only thing that Assyrians and Chaldeans disagree on is their ethnicity. I believe that once anything relating to the ethnicity is removed, there would be no warring.
What I propose is that since both sides agree that the people of
Tel Skuf are
Chaldean Christians who are comonly known as Chaldeans, we should make the intro read as follows:
Tel Skuf (Syriac: ܬܠܐ ܙܩܝܦܐ Tilla Zqeepa; Arabic: تللسقف) is a town located approximately 19 miles (about 28 Kilometres) north of
Mosul. Its population is estimated at 7,000, all being
Chaldean members of the Chaldean Catholic Church.
I have made two changes to remove any notion of ethnicity. First, I removed the first Chaldean word from the first line so that no ethnic identity is given. Second, I have corrected "vast majority" since all are Chaldean Christians. Also, the link states the common name of Chaldean Christians and it directs viewers to the right page explaining the denomination of the people of Tel Skuf. Of course this should be backed by keeping the current
Chaldean Christians article the way it is, by reversing Assyrian nationalists inputs to keep it focused on Church denominations. --
Tisqupnaia2010 (
talk)
00:43, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Why do you leave out the ethnicity? As Taivo says, it looks like Chaldeans are an ethnic group now when you're saying "Chaldeans who are members of...", so as the reached conscious on the name of the people it should be " Assyrians members of the Chaldean Catholic Church", which both show their ethnicity and which religious group they are members of. And just to show that this is just to remove things that you don't like, see this sentence which you edited: "to the hill next to it that contains the ruins of an ancient Chaldean town." Is this a joke? Clearly shows what your interest are. Shmayo ( talk) 14:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
My answer to the proposed change was Why do you leave out the ethnicity?. Shmayo ( talk) 15:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Me and the people who have actually discussed this topic in the Talk:Assyrian people want the ethnic name to be "Assyrians". Just because most of the people are Chaldean Catholic it doesn't mean that it should say "* is a Chaldean Catholic village", just as articles on Kurdish villages doesn't say "* is a Sunni Islamic village." Shmayo ( talk) 15:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
** Nothing else to be Said **
Dear Mr.
Beeblebrox,
After the excellent work of
Prof. Taivo who was willing to read Archives and go through his own research to give his own input on the matter, and after we have been honored to have
Dr. Wilmshurst himself to give his most appreciated input on the article (
see here), I must add one last thing. When I didn't have any sources (beside my word and that of my people) I offered Mr. Shmayo giving up on my Chaldean ethnicity by excluding it from the article and keeping only the reference to the religious denomination of the village to stop warring. However, he refused my generous offer. Now, Thank God, with the help of two generous gentlemen who were willing to give my humble village their precious time, we know and have proved that this is a Chaldean village. It is for this that I must now refuse giving up on my ethnicity. I have to ask you to please keep the intro exactly the way it is in the article (after adding the correct name). This is only to teach Mr. Shmayo that such misleading attempts against ethnic affiliations of others are not appreciated in Wikipedia. He did seem to know before hand that there was no consensus regarding his claim about Chaldean Ethnicity.
My deepest thanks to you,
Prof. Taivo, and
Dr. Wilmshurst. --
Tisqupnaia2010 (
talk)
03:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
"And just to show that this is just to remove things that you don't like, see this sentence which you edited: "to the hill next to it that contains the ruins of an ancient Chaldean town." Is this a joke? Clearly shows what your interest are" I wrote that before (bad temperament, sorry). But I'm reverting it to the old right. Shmayo ( talk) 13:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm reading this and wondering, "Why do the Assyrians want to call the Chaldeans 'Assyrian'?" Why is it so important? Usually, the reason why one ethnic group wants to appropriate another is for political reasons that have nothing to do with Wikipedia. I see this in Ukrainian articles all the time, where Ukrainian nationalists want to remove all reference to the Russian language even in articles about cities where nearly the entire population speaks Russian as their native language. If the majority of Chaldeans want to be known as "Chaldean", then Wikipedia should reflect that fact. It's all a question of numbers. Here in the Wikipedia world, the fundamental question is "Do the majority of Chaldeans (in the real world) want to be known as 'Chaldean' or 'Assyrian'?" What are the sources? I don't want to hear, "X says he wants to be known as an Assyrian" or "Y says he wants to be known as a Chaldean". Are there any sources that talk about what the majority of Chaldeans want to be called? The U.S. Census doesn't actually support Shmayo's view that all Assyrians, Chaldeans, and Syriacs are "Assyrian". It supports the view that all three are distinctly labelled and that the differences between them aren't relevant for counting United States citizens. It has nothing to do with facts on the ground in Iraq. So, very briefly, what is the reason you are fighting the Chaldeans, Shmayo? Why do you care? Why do you want them to be Assyrians? ( Taivo ( talk) 01:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
Then what kind of evidence do you want, Taivo? If the only pro-Assyrian party won most Christian seats in a country were most Christians are Chaldean Catholic then isn't obvious what they consider themselves to be?! Please also read the discussion I and Tisqopnaya2010(?) had about the word Suraya. Shmayo ( talk) 15:31, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Who is anybody to say that Chaldeans wants to be called anything? Do you mean like an historian saying Chaldean Catholics are Assyrians? Because otherwise I really don't know what you're asking for. And in the same way, find a source saying Chaldean Catholics want to be called ethnical Chaldeans. I'm sure we can't find the source you're looking for (if there isn't a person that have not asked all Chaldean Catholics what they identify themselves as, lol). So looking at the talk page the Assyrian name should be used as an ethnic name. How can you even say there is no consensus there? Please check the archive and see the voting about this. It's been discussed! And even if Talk:Assyrian people isn't an "official" page to discuss the whole name controversy, this is the page that allways have been used. One thing you also should now is that many Chaldean nationalist mean that the whole people (members of CCC, ACOE, SOC) are Chaldeans. Of course this isn't spread that wide because the people saying we're Chaldeans aren't many. Again, don't forget that the majority of us are Chaldean Catholic, but still the organisations and parties promoting the Assyrian name are the biggest. Shmayo ( talk) 16:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
"First, if there is a group of people who call themselves "Chaldean", that's the default position." And who have said that they want to be called Chaldeans? Their old patriarch (Mar Raphael J Bidawid) have stated that their ethnicity is Assyrian [17](an interview: 1) Yes, religiously they are Chaldean Catholic (a name the pope gave the church) but the they are really not related to the Chaldeans of Chaldea. Assyriologists have even stated that modern day Chaldeans are Assyrians. [18] You must at the same time understand that it's a difference in these parties, so it's a bad comparison. ADM is an ethnic Assyrian party. In archive 9 you can see voting and long discussion about this. Of course there still are some people saying "we are Arameans", "we are Chaldeans", etc. but Assyrians is the common name. See whole archive 9. And something I've tried to explain a several times now. See the artice Assyrian people, it's actually about the whole Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac people. All the flags are there and so on. But again, it's called Assyrian people because it's the common name. Shmayo ( talk) 20:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Ironically, as members of the Chaldean Catholic Church established in 1553, many modern Assyrians originating from central Assyria now identify themselves as “Chaldeans”, a term inevitably associated with the Babylonian dynasty that destroyed Nineveh and the Assyrian Empire!
...it's actually about the whole Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac people. All the flags are there and so on. But again, it's called Assyrian people because it's the common name. That is very important to remember. Several articles about an independent "Syriac-Aramaic people" have been created, they've been removed, this because it's have been discussed that they should be under one article. The admin who have removed some of these and several times said that it's the same group is User:Dbachmann. He have been active in many discussions regarding this. Many have been held at the removed articles' talk pages. Shmayo ( talk) 13:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I didn't say he want to unite the people under the name Assyrian. He say and have done many times that it is the same people. Now just because they followed WP:common name, does mean they want Assyrians to be the umbrella name. Of course there are people calling themselves Chaldeans. But he didn't mean that all Chaldean Catholics do so. Chaldeans don't want to be called "Assyrian", Syriacs don't want to be called "Assyrian", only the Assyrians want to be called "Assyrian". Now this is so false. I said it before, myself I'm a "Syriac" (member of the Syriac Orthodox Church), but I see myself as an ethnic Assyrian, and so do all my relatives. Most of our people in Sweden are Syriac Orthodox, still there is a football team (started by Syriac Orthodoxes) called Assyriska FF, an Assyrian association started by Syriac Orthodoxes and so on. The same with Chaldean Catholics. I've seen Chaldean Catholic Churches with the Assyrian flag inside, and some even called "Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church". Shmayo ( talk) 14:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
It did not. Again, it's an ethnic party, and it won in most Chaldean Catholic villages. Because we are not getting a better source than that on what Chaldean Catholics consider themselves as. Shmayo ( talk) 16:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, there are people identifying themselves Chaldeans, I know that, Taivo. Parpola is not saying all do so, some of them. Still I haven't seen any source saying Chaldean Catholics want to be known as Chaldeans ethnically. And then don't forget that many villages are not 100% Chaldean Catholic just because the majority is. So calling every villages with 50%+ for Chaldean Christian villages is not acceptable. There is an significant Nestorian population in these villages too. Shmayo ( talk) 17:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
No, why should they be called after the religious denomination? You've really not understood that there are many Chaldean Catholics and Syriac Orthodoxes (like me) who call themselves Assyrians. Of course we can not find a source saying "these people identify themselves as *", who is anybody to say something like that. I've already shown that there are associations and organisation and other with the Assyrian name started by Syriac Orthodoxes and Chaldean Catholics. The people who've contribued most to the Assyrian articles on Wikipedia are Chaldean Catholics. Just because some people recently have started to call themselves ethnic Chaldeans doesn't mean everything here have to change. Shmayo ( talk) 21:01, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
And Tiscopnaia2010(?) said it himself in the begining "The people of the Plain of Mosul are ethnically East Syrians [In Syriac; Suraye Madenkhaye]" And the etymology of Syria/Syrian/Suraye we know. Shmayo ( talk) 21:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
And if the old patriarch himself said he was Assyrian [19], how can people even say that "no Chaldean call himslef Assyrian"? Shmayo ( talk) 21:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
The changing from Chaldean to Assyrian is to show the ethnicity and not religious. What is Assyrian? What is an Assyrian article? The people belong to the C C Church, Nestorian Church and the Syriac church, what is Assyrian?! To say "that villages is mostly Chaldean, but the other one Assyrian" is wrong. How did Assyrian become a religious term when it have described this people in all these years. The term Chaldean nowdays do not have with ethnicity to do, many agree with this [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25](some actually saying the members of the Chaldean Catholic Church are Assyrians). Shmayo ( talk) 23:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
"“In 1551, the Assyrian community refused to accept the appointment of Shim’un VII Denka as Patriarch of the Church of the East. They sent a monk, Youhanna Sulaqa, to Rome, where he was appointed Patriarch of Babylon and head of the first church in the Middle East to unite with Rome. While the name Assyrian refers to an ethnic identity, the name Chaldean refers to the (Catholic) ‘rite’. He later died as a martyr in Diyarbekr (Eastern Turkey) at the hands of the anti-Catholic community." [26]"“Today’s Chaldean term is new to us, it came from the west, and from Rome precisely. You people, the inhabitants of the above mentioned villages are originally Assyrians, descendants of the Assyrians of antiquity. I, for example, was born in Mosul, and belong to the Chaldean Church, yet I am Assyrian and we all are Assyrians, being Syrians, Chaldeans, or Maronites.” [27]"Chaldean is the name given to those Assyrians who in 1552, led by one of their bishops, accepted the authority of Rome. They retain to a certain extent their own ecclesiastical constitutions and discipline, and have within their fold approximately 70% of the Assyrians." [28]"“The Portuguese found an Assyrian Church in India in Malabar in the 16th century. It was reunited with Rome in 1599 and strongly Latinized. In 1830 a Catholic patriarch, called “Chaldean” was created in Mesopotamia, so there now are some Assyrians in union with Rome.” [29]. Some quotes from them, as you asked for. The translation to what the patriarch said: "I personally think that these different names serve to add confusion. The original name of our Church was the ‘Church of the East’ ... When a portion of the Church of the East became Catholic, the name given was ‘Chaldean’ based on the Magi kings who came from the land of the Chaldean, to Bethlehem. The name ‘Chaldean’ does not represent an ethnicity... We have to separate what is ethnicity and what is religion... I myself, my sect is Chaldean, but ethnically, I am Assyrian." Shmayo ( talk) 11:19, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
[30] [31] [32]. If Bahnam Abu al-Soof is an Assyrian nationalist I don't know, but he is professor of archaeology, therefore I thought it could be usable. I've left out that source now. And something more interesting is the source used in this article. The could can be found here. Read the intro (forth page) and see how he uses Chaldean as an religious term. And several times in the book he uses the terms Nestorian and Chaldean together, which again shows that he is refering to it as an religious term. And many other time he is uses Syriac Orthodox and Chaldean together again showing it's a religious term. Shmayo ( talk) 13:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Maybe not the last one I wrote, but the one above. Clearly shows that the term "Chaldean" is used to describe a religious group. Shmayo ( talk) 14:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't want to get involved in the ongoing debate on whether Tel Skuf counts as an Assyrian or a Chaldean town, as these absurd disputes are only of interest to Assyrian nationalists, but I would like to suggest that you choose a more familiar English name for the purposes of a Wikipedia encyclopedia article. Ever since Badger's time, the town has been known as Tel Isqof to Europeans and Americans. Most people who consult Wikipedia for information on Tel Isqof will have found its name in one of the classic European studies of the Church of the East (Badger, Cutts, Wigram, etc. in the nineteenth century, and more recently Fiey and Wilmshurst). I think Tel Isqof is more user-friendly than Tel Skuf. By all means give all its aliases in the lead paragraph: Tel Zqipa, Tesqopa, etc.
For what it's worth, Tel Isqof is a Chaldean town, and has been since the eighteenth century (Wilmshurst, Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 234–6).
Beam me up, Scottie, I think it's time to go.
Djwilms ( talk) 02:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
As ܥܝܪܐܩ suggested, we probably should rename this article to the correct spelling of the commonly used names: either Tel Isqof or Tel Eskof. I personally prefer the first, for it is closer to the way the name is pronounced in Arabic. -- Tisqupnaia2010 ( talk) 21:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Which ancient empire controlled the area around Tel Isqof? The Neo-Babylonian or the Assyrian? Have the ruins of the town been excavated and when are they dated? ( Taivo ( talk) 14:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC))
This area is the Assyrian heartland. Assyrians didn't just controll the area as they did with Babylon or any other city far away from the heartland, this was the heartland of Assyria. So of course Nineveh and the area around was founded by Assyrians. And it's not even really clear if it was the Medes or the Babylonians who controlled the area later, but it really doesn't matter. If this isn't Assyrian ruins, then there are no Assyrian ruins. But sure, I can agree on just "ancient village". Shmayo ( talk) 10:55, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
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There seems to be general agreement that "Chaldean Christian" is an acceptable term in most cases of usage. When "Chaldean Christian" occurs in an article as the first (and second) usage, then it can be shortened to "Chaldean" in subsequent usages without implying that it is something different. However, the short form cannot be used as the first (and only) reference in an article. This is standard practice for names in Wikipedia that have long and short forms, especially when the short form can be controversial when used alone. The first reference in this article must remain "Chaldean Christian". ( Taivo ( talk) 16:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC))
Could anyone supply a source for the alleged Mongol attack on Tel Isqof in 1436? There was an attack in 1235, and another attack in 1508, but not (as far as I am aware) one in 1436. I suspect that the date is wrong, and that this passage refers to the attack in 1235 commemorated by Giwargis Warda.
If there WAS an attack in 1436, it would represent a very important addition to our scanty knowledge of the history of the Church of the East in the fifteenth century ...