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What is the relation between the Atesot tribe and the Iteso? See article Enoch Olinga. Wiki-uk 11:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The people are called Iteso, the male person is called Etesot, the female person is called Atesot and the language is called Ateso. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.0.7.5 ( talk) 13:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Ezeu you are on point Isamait ( talk) 16:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
Sakwara, you need to discuss here what you want to change, as it has been reverted by multiple editors and not without reason. For one thing, stop messing up the hatnote, which is correct already. Two, please carefully look at the result of your editing. You have duplicated multiple paragraphs in the text. And third, you need to bring a reliable source. That KenyaCradle page has literally copied at least one portion of this Wikipedia article, so we can't possibly trust them as a source. I didn't find what you're referring to on everyculture.com, although I'm not at all sure about that website either. I'll try to search a bit to see if something else can be found. -- Fyrael ( talk) 04:09, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael, respectfully, I do not need to discuss what I need to change with you. This incorrect information that you keep changing has come to the notice of many and sincerely please stop citing wrong information about a whole group of people. You are demonizing a whole sect of people with incorrect information. Before I made any changes, I double checked with several sources and individuals who have written and are currently writing an in-depth history on the Teso people. I have in fact told them to sign onto Wikipedia as well to rectify this. My background: I have studied about this culture and I am deeply connected with the museum that they have in Nairobi and in Teso (western). I am also a Teso, deeply connected with my culture. I strongly urge you to do some research before making further edits to this, as this information is highly inaccurate. What is your source that Ateso means graves? Besides legend has it? For years this information was never on Wikipedia until you showed up. 2) As to the duplicated paragraph, I have corrected it. This was obviously a small error on my part. 3) what hatnote have I messed with? Everculture and Kenyacradle have individuals who are versed with the history of the Teso as well hence me referencing them. Kenya Cradle had this information on their website for years before you came and added the one on graves. Importantly, as mentioned, my reference are anthropologists, professors and those at the Teso museum - these individuals carry a deep history of the Teso people. The information you are supporting simply does not exist. You're asking for citation yet you have not provided one.
I am literally on the phone with people who carry the history of Teso in their hands and even in museums, and this is what's written. They have all denied the existence of any cultural history that references the Ateso to mean graves.
About Tesos: This is what you might be confusing on their history. Tesos are known to be very brave and they go out fearlessly not being afraid of anything. Many people would observe them and advise them to be very careful because they will end up in graves – meaning ‘Ates’, because of the way they’re moving ahead, they might run into problems and end up dying, that they must slow down. This is where the graves reference comes in.
Ateso, Iteso or Teso (a whole group pf people) however does not mean graves. You have to remember that although many tribes can come from the same linguistic group, they carry different cultures and practices. Ateso does not mean graves, and I believe you are confusing histories here. Please I urge you to do proper research on this as the information is readily available. Sakwara ( talk) 18:53, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael I have also contacted Wikipedia to help solve this issue and they've advised on how to go on about it. When adding sensitive content about a whole group of people, consider the impact you're making and the history you're re-writing especially on a platform like Wikipedia. I am glad that we caught on to this. If there's no actual reference to back up your claims, I am urging you to not demonize a group of people with such information. I will add other users to this discussion so they can add to this conversation shortly. The answer is not to go back and forth changing the information, but to come to a mutual understanding on what is verifiable. As I mentioned, I am not sure when you came and changed this information on Wikipedia, but it did not exist here before you added it.
Sakwara (
talk)
19:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael you are still changing the information on this page without citing your references. Please stop. It is beyond unprofessional to demonize a whole group of people with fables that you picked up. I explained myself and you're still pasting your own things. Sakwara ( talk) 19:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael what is your source that the word Ateso means graves? You're asking me to back up what I am saying, facts that have existed for years, yet you do not have any credible source. You're telling me not to change information, yet you came and changed it. Does what you're saying making any sense? So for you to have added that information, you cannot come and say legend has it. Legend from where? who are you that you can challenge a whole group of people without any references, yet you are asking me to provide a reference. As for the websites you are refering to I have read them for over ten years now. If you do not have any credible source as to Ateso meaning graves, please do not include it. It's okay for a whole group of people to grow and change, however what you are writing is incorrect and inaccurate. If it's a collaborative platform, which I know, and I am not sure why you're even brining that up. The burden rests on you, as you came to change information that yo know nothing of. And if you do not have any proof or reference other than legend has it, you leave the information as it is, not fables told to you by your friends and peers which you think its okay to change. You also need to understand how things work.
Sakwara (
talk)
19:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael My thing with the not needing to discuss - I am sure you didn't discuss with other contributors on adding the graves bit. Did you? There are so many contributors that make up Wikipedia as we know, and we need to approach each other with respect. You just came off very demeaning and trying to educate me on Wikipedia instead of addressing the matter on hand. I too am like you, making sure the proper information is updated. I am sorry, but the one you indicated does not exist with any historian I've contacted. I will contact others tomorrow as well.
I tried to add the URL (everyculture) but for some reason, a part of it is blacklisted (they cover different cultures so who knows who reported what) and Wikipedia has a process to remove it, so I am trying to follow through. I even tried to shorten the URL to paste it here but it didn't allow it. Just type Teso people on that website and it'll come up. As for Kenyacradle they have had that information up for as long as I can remember (and there are other sites as well) and it always used to line up with Wikipedia. I thought I referenced it. The best source of information is the museum. I also urge you to contact the Teso museum in Nairobi or if you're in Kenya, you can visit them; to learn more about their history. Sakwara ( talk) 20:07, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
joanafrica Greetings sir, pulling you in. Many thanks Sakwara ( talk) 20:37, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael Thanks for making this clear. For better understanding and clarity, if you are not disputing the graves part, then why do you keep reinstating it? I am lost. Do you work for Wikipedia or are you an editor on the article like I am. If you're not disputing the graves part, could you please not keep adding it back? As this is inaccurate information kindly. It's not forcing information as I could say the same for your actions. You changed it back maybe 5 times completely disregarding my explanations. If you want to add it back, what is the reference that you're standing on so I can study it?
You've also mentioned that I'll have to deal with the author, which I am happy to. I will discuss this on the talk page when the time comes. I haven't logged on to my account for a while as I said and as you can see you even indicate that this information was added two years ago. Added, not a newly written article. Added from where? It cannot be that this new information is accepted without being challenged because there's simply no reference for it.
I just need to understand why you keep adding the graves information back on the page if you saw this article 4 days ago for the first time and also if you're not the author who changed it, why is it important for you to edit the page? What is your role in all this? I also hope that what I wrote is clear because you spoke of the word 'etymology'. I then explained this was not my dispute. The dispute is that someone added new information on the graves part without proper citation (you said its not you).
I am not forcing information. Wikipedia states that editors must take proper precaution while adding information to living persons and this includes some groups. Even if museum ends up not being accepted, another editor should not add information stating that legend has it. In this regard, anyone could come and write anything and say legend has it. If this information existed, then this would be part of history and should be left published, however I am challenging it because this information is false. I will also see how to go about this because as you know museums hold factual information.
Common knowledge and narration indicate the biblical reference re: history and that's why that was always left up. Karamojong people although from the same linguistic group do not hold not carry the same culture as the Tesos. It's like saying the Masaai and the Teso have the same traditions when we are different (with some similarities).
I already asked Wikipedia for direction on adding citations not from articles. I will refer to their guidelines as I see they responded.
Please do not keep reinstating the graves part if you're not the author. It also becomes difficult to discuss this with you because you have no knowledge on this topic and so we cannot reach any consensus. Please explain my concerns above. Many thanks Sakwara ( talk) 04:31, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been moved from my talk page
M.Bitton (
talk)
20:08, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello Bitton,
I just saw your message after I made the edit on the Teso people. There was another gentleman who was going back and forth with another user, but he claimed that he was not the author of the page and so on. So it was rather confusing to be talking with someone who kept editing the page to have incorrect information, yet he was not the author who put that there. So I want to understand how this works.
I was pulled in to the discussion because individuals are adding information without there being correct citation, stating that the Ateso name means graves. I was contacted and joined in the conversation. The information I have cited comes from long standing tradition and cultures that are recorded in the museums of Kenya. There are two museums and I work in one of them, and both hold this information.
If we cannot write that this comes from tradition, then how is it possible that Wikipedia allowed wrong information for the past two years without proper citation? Unless that was an error that went unchecked.
Please explain the process. I do understand that we cannot let just anyone write what they please. Very understandable and logical. If you indeed work for Wikipedia, can we get information from the Teso museum and use as citation? If not, I am happy to look for other types of publication.
Lastly, there are websites that hold the same view. I can post these later on here. As for museum work, For example, this link( https://artsandculture.google.com/story/oduk-the-story-of-the-iteso-conqueror/JQICN_PZag-0LQ) has produced this work on the Iteso people based on information found in the Teso museum. If you scroll below, you can see that they credit the Teso museum. There are two museums in Kenya which carry the knowledge of the Iteso people. Everyone finds their source from these two. Let me know how to proceed please?
Best, Joan. Joanafrica ( talk) 23:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners.At first glance, the Museum source (whose reliability needs to be established) that you cited above does not seem to support what you added to the article, but now that the discussion has been moved here, other editors will have a chance to weigh in. M.Bitton ( talk) 20:04, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I have recently rewritten large blocks of the History Section and reorganized the entire article for better reading and pacing. I mostly focused on the history section, but I welcome any sourced additions to the culture, as it is rather lacking. Also, a better opening for the article is also needed. Thanks! Wdonghan ( talk) 23:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
What is the relation between the Atesot tribe and the Iteso? See article Enoch Olinga. Wiki-uk 11:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The people are called Iteso, the male person is called Etesot, the female person is called Atesot and the language is called Ateso. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.0.7.5 ( talk) 13:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Ezeu you are on point Isamait ( talk) 16:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
Sakwara, you need to discuss here what you want to change, as it has been reverted by multiple editors and not without reason. For one thing, stop messing up the hatnote, which is correct already. Two, please carefully look at the result of your editing. You have duplicated multiple paragraphs in the text. And third, you need to bring a reliable source. That KenyaCradle page has literally copied at least one portion of this Wikipedia article, so we can't possibly trust them as a source. I didn't find what you're referring to on everyculture.com, although I'm not at all sure about that website either. I'll try to search a bit to see if something else can be found. -- Fyrael ( talk) 04:09, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael, respectfully, I do not need to discuss what I need to change with you. This incorrect information that you keep changing has come to the notice of many and sincerely please stop citing wrong information about a whole group of people. You are demonizing a whole sect of people with incorrect information. Before I made any changes, I double checked with several sources and individuals who have written and are currently writing an in-depth history on the Teso people. I have in fact told them to sign onto Wikipedia as well to rectify this. My background: I have studied about this culture and I am deeply connected with the museum that they have in Nairobi and in Teso (western). I am also a Teso, deeply connected with my culture. I strongly urge you to do some research before making further edits to this, as this information is highly inaccurate. What is your source that Ateso means graves? Besides legend has it? For years this information was never on Wikipedia until you showed up. 2) As to the duplicated paragraph, I have corrected it. This was obviously a small error on my part. 3) what hatnote have I messed with? Everculture and Kenyacradle have individuals who are versed with the history of the Teso as well hence me referencing them. Kenya Cradle had this information on their website for years before you came and added the one on graves. Importantly, as mentioned, my reference are anthropologists, professors and those at the Teso museum - these individuals carry a deep history of the Teso people. The information you are supporting simply does not exist. You're asking for citation yet you have not provided one.
I am literally on the phone with people who carry the history of Teso in their hands and even in museums, and this is what's written. They have all denied the existence of any cultural history that references the Ateso to mean graves.
About Tesos: This is what you might be confusing on their history. Tesos are known to be very brave and they go out fearlessly not being afraid of anything. Many people would observe them and advise them to be very careful because they will end up in graves – meaning ‘Ates’, because of the way they’re moving ahead, they might run into problems and end up dying, that they must slow down. This is where the graves reference comes in.
Ateso, Iteso or Teso (a whole group pf people) however does not mean graves. You have to remember that although many tribes can come from the same linguistic group, they carry different cultures and practices. Ateso does not mean graves, and I believe you are confusing histories here. Please I urge you to do proper research on this as the information is readily available. Sakwara ( talk) 18:53, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael I have also contacted Wikipedia to help solve this issue and they've advised on how to go on about it. When adding sensitive content about a whole group of people, consider the impact you're making and the history you're re-writing especially on a platform like Wikipedia. I am glad that we caught on to this. If there's no actual reference to back up your claims, I am urging you to not demonize a group of people with such information. I will add other users to this discussion so they can add to this conversation shortly. The answer is not to go back and forth changing the information, but to come to a mutual understanding on what is verifiable. As I mentioned, I am not sure when you came and changed this information on Wikipedia, but it did not exist here before you added it.
Sakwara (
talk)
19:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael you are still changing the information on this page without citing your references. Please stop. It is beyond unprofessional to demonize a whole group of people with fables that you picked up. I explained myself and you're still pasting your own things. Sakwara ( talk) 19:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael what is your source that the word Ateso means graves? You're asking me to back up what I am saying, facts that have existed for years, yet you do not have any credible source. You're telling me not to change information, yet you came and changed it. Does what you're saying making any sense? So for you to have added that information, you cannot come and say legend has it. Legend from where? who are you that you can challenge a whole group of people without any references, yet you are asking me to provide a reference. As for the websites you are refering to I have read them for over ten years now. If you do not have any credible source as to Ateso meaning graves, please do not include it. It's okay for a whole group of people to grow and change, however what you are writing is incorrect and inaccurate. If it's a collaborative platform, which I know, and I am not sure why you're even brining that up. The burden rests on you, as you came to change information that yo know nothing of. And if you do not have any proof or reference other than legend has it, you leave the information as it is, not fables told to you by your friends and peers which you think its okay to change. You also need to understand how things work.
Sakwara (
talk)
19:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael My thing with the not needing to discuss - I am sure you didn't discuss with other contributors on adding the graves bit. Did you? There are so many contributors that make up Wikipedia as we know, and we need to approach each other with respect. You just came off very demeaning and trying to educate me on Wikipedia instead of addressing the matter on hand. I too am like you, making sure the proper information is updated. I am sorry, but the one you indicated does not exist with any historian I've contacted. I will contact others tomorrow as well.
I tried to add the URL (everyculture) but for some reason, a part of it is blacklisted (they cover different cultures so who knows who reported what) and Wikipedia has a process to remove it, so I am trying to follow through. I even tried to shorten the URL to paste it here but it didn't allow it. Just type Teso people on that website and it'll come up. As for Kenyacradle they have had that information up for as long as I can remember (and there are other sites as well) and it always used to line up with Wikipedia. I thought I referenced it. The best source of information is the museum. I also urge you to contact the Teso museum in Nairobi or if you're in Kenya, you can visit them; to learn more about their history. Sakwara ( talk) 20:07, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
joanafrica Greetings sir, pulling you in. Many thanks Sakwara ( talk) 20:37, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Fyrael Thanks for making this clear. For better understanding and clarity, if you are not disputing the graves part, then why do you keep reinstating it? I am lost. Do you work for Wikipedia or are you an editor on the article like I am. If you're not disputing the graves part, could you please not keep adding it back? As this is inaccurate information kindly. It's not forcing information as I could say the same for your actions. You changed it back maybe 5 times completely disregarding my explanations. If you want to add it back, what is the reference that you're standing on so I can study it?
You've also mentioned that I'll have to deal with the author, which I am happy to. I will discuss this on the talk page when the time comes. I haven't logged on to my account for a while as I said and as you can see you even indicate that this information was added two years ago. Added, not a newly written article. Added from where? It cannot be that this new information is accepted without being challenged because there's simply no reference for it.
I just need to understand why you keep adding the graves information back on the page if you saw this article 4 days ago for the first time and also if you're not the author who changed it, why is it important for you to edit the page? What is your role in all this? I also hope that what I wrote is clear because you spoke of the word 'etymology'. I then explained this was not my dispute. The dispute is that someone added new information on the graves part without proper citation (you said its not you).
I am not forcing information. Wikipedia states that editors must take proper precaution while adding information to living persons and this includes some groups. Even if museum ends up not being accepted, another editor should not add information stating that legend has it. In this regard, anyone could come and write anything and say legend has it. If this information existed, then this would be part of history and should be left published, however I am challenging it because this information is false. I will also see how to go about this because as you know museums hold factual information.
Common knowledge and narration indicate the biblical reference re: history and that's why that was always left up. Karamojong people although from the same linguistic group do not hold not carry the same culture as the Tesos. It's like saying the Masaai and the Teso have the same traditions when we are different (with some similarities).
I already asked Wikipedia for direction on adding citations not from articles. I will refer to their guidelines as I see they responded.
Please do not keep reinstating the graves part if you're not the author. It also becomes difficult to discuss this with you because you have no knowledge on this topic and so we cannot reach any consensus. Please explain my concerns above. Many thanks Sakwara ( talk) 04:31, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been moved from my talk page
M.Bitton (
talk)
20:08, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello Bitton,
I just saw your message after I made the edit on the Teso people. There was another gentleman who was going back and forth with another user, but he claimed that he was not the author of the page and so on. So it was rather confusing to be talking with someone who kept editing the page to have incorrect information, yet he was not the author who put that there. So I want to understand how this works.
I was pulled in to the discussion because individuals are adding information without there being correct citation, stating that the Ateso name means graves. I was contacted and joined in the conversation. The information I have cited comes from long standing tradition and cultures that are recorded in the museums of Kenya. There are two museums and I work in one of them, and both hold this information.
If we cannot write that this comes from tradition, then how is it possible that Wikipedia allowed wrong information for the past two years without proper citation? Unless that was an error that went unchecked.
Please explain the process. I do understand that we cannot let just anyone write what they please. Very understandable and logical. If you indeed work for Wikipedia, can we get information from the Teso museum and use as citation? If not, I am happy to look for other types of publication.
Lastly, there are websites that hold the same view. I can post these later on here. As for museum work, For example, this link( https://artsandculture.google.com/story/oduk-the-story-of-the-iteso-conqueror/JQICN_PZag-0LQ) has produced this work on the Iteso people based on information found in the Teso museum. If you scroll below, you can see that they credit the Teso museum. There are two museums in Kenya which carry the knowledge of the Iteso people. Everyone finds their source from these two. Let me know how to proceed please?
Best, Joan. Joanafrica ( talk) 23:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners.At first glance, the Museum source (whose reliability needs to be established) that you cited above does not seem to support what you added to the article, but now that the discussion has been moved here, other editors will have a chance to weigh in. M.Bitton ( talk) 20:04, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I have recently rewritten large blocks of the History Section and reorganized the entire article for better reading and pacing. I mostly focused on the history section, but I welcome any sourced additions to the culture, as it is rather lacking. Also, a better opening for the article is also needed. Thanks! Wdonghan ( talk) 23:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)