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Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter
I would rather edit than tag {Cleanup|date=September 2007}} but I really do not have the background knowledge to do the article justice Aatomic1 16:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
This blog post could serve as a starting point for an expansion of this article: "Major terrorist attacks in China, 1997-2007" Amygdala ( talk) 00:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This page suffers a number of problems, and I would like to try to propose an approach to remedy them. First, there are a few things that need to handled with more caution. When I was editing the lede just now, I noticed that Uyghur separatism was linked to a page on Islamic terrorism. Just because most ethnic Uyghurs are Muslim does not mean that they share the same religious, ideological, or political objectives as transnational Islamic terrorists (as the term is usually understood). Quite the opposite, really. They are best understood as a separatist movement motivated by localized political interests, not religious ideology.
We also need to be careful with definitions. I edited the lede to reflect the divergence in the understanding of this term. It's a loaded one, and is particularly controversial in the context of China. Namely, the PRC government has been criticized for labeling non-violent religious or political dissidents as terrorists as a means of legitimizing strike-hard campaigns against them. There should be a section that deals with this in more depth so that a reader can properly contextually and evaluate divergent claims of terrorism. Another section that should be added would examine the laws and legal practices that govern the prosecution of terror cases.
The page in its current form seems to contain only accounts of terrorism by Muslims or in Xinjiang. There are a lot of other instances of terrorism that do not fall within this category (the Fuzhou bombings last year comes to mind [1]). It would therefore be prudent to describe the different manifestations of terrorism in more detail. I should also note that, in keeping with the understanding of terrorism as it was conceptualized after the French Revolution (ie. by states against people), some sources have described the Communist Party's political campaigns are forms of state terrorism, and we can also explore that.
Finally, I would like to ask whether there are any opinions about whether the article should contain a chronological list of events, or whether we should describe trends and notable events in a more integrated manner. Thoughts? Homunculus ( duihua) 18:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure there are other things. I'll come back to it another day. Homunculus ( duihua) 00:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
An editor has deleted the section dealing with manifestations of terrorism, arguing elsewhere that the term is contentious, is not necessarily synonymous with political violence or guerrilla warfare, etc. Editor also said that I misrepresented the Martin source, who discusses Mao's campaigns in the Chinese Civil War as including terror tactics. So, here's a rebuttal. Like genocide and similarly loaded terms, there will never be consensus over what constitutes terrorism. Depending on where one's sympathies lie, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. The line between guerrilla warfare and terrorism, in particular, is frequently blurred. That's why I added a section on etymology and use, which noted the divergent definitions and usages. That section notes that some forms of violence directed against political authorities (for instance, as anti-colonial or secession movements) are not necessarily defined as terrorist activities. In light of this, the argument could be made that Mao's guerrilla tactics were not a manifestation of terrorism. The source I used, Gus Martin's "Understanding terrorism: challenges, perspectives, and issues," also delineates between guerrilla warfare and terrorism by saying that the terms are not synonymous. However, the fact that they are not synonymous does not mean that guerrilla warfare is never terrorism. It means simply that it is not necessarily terrorism. In the case of Mao's campaign, Martin explains that terrorism was a strategic instrument in the "people's war" practiced by Mao. Here's the relevant excerpt:
I will try to rewrite the section again, and will take care to be more explicit in providing necessary qualifiers. As to the section on state terror, editor who deleted said (elsewhere) that state terrorism does not comport with the common usage of terrorism as acts committed by non-state actors, and that Mao's campaigns were simply political repression. That is true in the contemporary context. As I wrote in the section on etymology, however, this has not always been the case. Several sources, three of which were cited, do describe Mao's political campaigns as forms of terror (sometimes directly comparing these campaigns to those of Robespierre, after whom the term was devised). I would also exhort deleting editor to explore the genre of Cultural Revolution memoirs. Doing so might disabuse him of the notion that the Cultural Revolution was merely repression.
I also feel obligated to note that most of the events described by Chinese officials today as acts of Uyghur terrorism are not true terrorism either, but are instead part of a secessionist movement. Furthermore, Uyghur violence is directed almost exclusively against organs of the state, and the intent to induce terror in the civilian population does not appear to be a major component. Does this mean that those events should all be deleted off the page? I don't think so. I think it just means that we should be careful in describing these events, making clear the sources of contentious claims, the political context in which allegations of terrorism are made and, where available, divergent accounts.
Lastly, I really would like to work collaboratively with other editors on this page to ensure that it is nuanced, complete, and impeccably sourced. I would welcome in particular editors with expertise in the relevant field; terrorism studies were in vogue when I was in grad school, but I remember little and retained only a couple books. Ultimately, I think this page could become a good article. But deleting massive, sourced sections of content without discussion is not really constructive. Homunculus ( duihua) 19:16, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I just ordered the chronology of events as a table. This section was badly lacking in sources before, so I went and read articles on almost all the events listed, adding references and clarifying details. I think it's important to note when allegations originated with Chinese state-run media. Very, very few events are ever independently corroborated, and when journalists do attempt to travel to Xinjiang, they are generally thwarted. I also removed a couple things that appeared to be non-events (eg. video messages warning Uyghur not to hang out with Han Chinese during the Olympics), and incidents that were clearly not terrorist incidents (eg. a bus burning in Hubei. No one called this a terrorist event). Additional scrutiny is still needed. Also, several events that much more readily meet the criteria for terrorist attacks are not currently included on the page. I will do some more research and add more. Homunculus ( duihua) 19:42, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I just updated the page with the following changes:
There are a several things that are still missing, as I see it:
Maybe there are things I've overlooked. (Constructive) feedback is welcome. Homunculus ( duihua) 20:19, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Another editor deleted the section addressing Tibet within the subheading of ethnic separatism, calling it "appalling editorialization". Now, I'll concede that the section (which I started earlier today) needed to be expanded with more sources, and I just wanted to get it started by drawing on Suzanne Ogden's survey of terrorism in contemporary China. I don't think my edits were especially "appalling," but maybe I'm suffering some kind of strange cognitive filter that is impeding self awareness. Here's a comparison. This is what I wrote (ref tags removed):
Here's what the source writes:
Now, in the event that I have failed to do justice to the source, I would strongly encourage others to try constructively improve upon what I've written, and expand this section with additional sources. Homunculus ( duihua) 02:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
A note regarding edits recently made to this section (and others): some of these changes did improve the concision and quality of the prose, I think, though there are a couple things I'd like to point out that still need to be refined. First, the editor deleted some references that refer to non-violent acts (including simply emigrating from China, or participating in "illegal" religious activity) is sometimes labelled terrorism by Chinese officials. This was replaced with a very specific (I think too specific) example of how authorities condemned the recent self-immolations of Tibetans as terrorism. I would also note that the Dalai Lama, who was accused of "terrorism in disguise" for fasting and praying for the self-immolators, was not actually condoning these, though authorities claimed he was. The text, as currently written, does not make that clear.
Another problem is that the section on Tibet may be interpreted to suggest that Tibetans have no ongoing, legitimate reason to feel aggrieved. I wrote in a previous version that repressive policies were eased beginning in 1980. While this was an improvement, we must remember that policies under Mao involved human rights abuses of a staggering scale and the near-complete destruction of Tibetan culture. Human rights abuses and restrictions to religious freedom persist, as do (admittedly less aggressive) attempts at assimilation. It's partly my fault, but none of this made clear in the article. I will make some edits to address this, but will wait for a reply to see if anyone has thoughts on the best approach. Homunculus ( duihua) 00:39, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
An editor has deleted the section about state terror for a second time. [4] As is typical, editor has refused to discuss the reason for deletion on the talk page, but said in the edit summary that "state terror has been widely disputed." I would like to be educated about the nature of that dispute. Specifically, I'm interested to see explicit rebuttals against the scholars who have characterized campaigns under Mao as state-sanctioned terrorism. Please don't delete again without discussing this. Homunculus ( duihua) 04:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
The Chairman of the United Nations Counter-Terrorism Committee has stated that the twelve previous international conventions on terrorism had never referred to state terrorism, which was not an international legal concept, and that when states abuse their powers they should be judged against international conventions dealing with war crimes, international human rights and international humanitarian law, rather than against international anti-terrorism statutes. In a similar vein, Kofi Annan, at the time United Nations Secretary-General, stated that it is "time to set aside debates on so-called 'state terrorism'. The use of force by states is already regulated under international law" Annan added, "...regardless of the differences between governments on the question of definition of terrorism, what is clear and what we can all agree on is any deliberate attack on innocent civilians, regardless of one's cause, is unacceptable and fits into the definition of terrorism."
Dr. Bruce Hoffman has argued that failing to differentiate between state and non-state violence ignores the fact that there is a “fundamental qualitative difference between the two types of violence.” Hoffman argues that even in war there are rules and accepted norms of behavior that prohibit certain types of weapons and tactics and outlaw attacks on specific categories of targets. For instance, rules codified in the Geneva and Hague conventions on warfare prohibit taking civilians as hostages, outlaw reprisals against either civilians or POW’s, recognize neutral territory, etc. Hoffman states that “even the most cursory review of terrorist tactics and targets over the past quarter century reveals that terrorists have violated all these rules.” Hoffman also states that when states transgress these rules of war “the term “war crime” is used to describe such acts.
Walter Laqueur has stated that those who argue that state terrorism should be included in studies of terrorism ignore the fact that “The very existence of a state is based on its monopoly on violence. If it were different, states would not have the right, nor be in a position, to maintain that minimum of order on which all civilized life rests.” Calling the concept a “red herring” he stated: “This argument has been used by the terrorists themselves, arguing that there is no difference between their activities and those by governments and states. It has also been employed by some sympathizers, and rests on the deliberate obfuscation between all kinds of violence...”
What you're doing here is effectively editorializing and spin the article into some sort of justification of terrorism by non-state actors against the PRC government.-- PCPP ( talk) 04:45, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
':::::I don't care what KMT sponsored academics like Dikkoter thinks, they're not experts on terrorism or even state terrorism. And "Red Terror", "mass terror", and "state terrorism" are not interchangeable words as you're trying to claim, considering that the Anti-Movements and Cultural Revolution are largely seen as political repression and mass movements respectively. In contrast, terrorism specialists like Hoffman and Laqueur already pointed out why "state terrorism" is not terrorism - that states have a monopoly on violence and are subject to international conventions which non-state actors are not bound by. Furthermore, UNSC Resolution 1566 defined terrorism as "criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act". You are, in fact, trying to synthesize your own definition of terrorism.-- PCPP ( talk) 12:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Having researched the subject there are numerous critiques of Dikotter and other western historians (from which the notion of state terrorism in the cultural revolution is entirely synthesised) essentially they do not have legitimate sources and their argument is bereft of factual, verifiable sources. The specific sources they mention of violence in the cultural revolution were not planned or initiated by the state. ( duihua) 06:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.241.184 ( talk)
I was invited to review this article by Homunculus.
The article Definitions of terrorism explains why there is no universally agreed meaning to the term terrorism, and the section Terrorism#Pejorative use explains why the use of terrorism carries non neutral connotations. So given that there are several things that are problematic about this article.
The first is the title of the article. "Terrorism in the People's Republic of China" it implies that in the opinion of Wikipedia editors there is terrorism in the China.
The next problem is the lead. It is in clear violation of WP:TERRORISM. The best way to handle accusation of terrorism is to state what the action are and then who describes those actions as terrorism. To see a good example of this look at the lead in the al Quada article. Until recently it included the line:
It now says:
and this change was accepted after a long debate because in the same lead the article says
So it was agreed that there was no need for Wikipedia to express the opinion that al Quada in the passive narrative voice of the article.
I suggest that the article is rewritten to completely remove the passive narrative use of the term terrorism and terrorist and always attribute it to the article. Once that is done rewrite the lead in a similar way to remove the current POV.
For example the article currently says:
Most instances of terrorism by non-state actors in contemporary China involve members of the largely Muslim Uyghur ethnic group, who are concentrated in the Northwestern province of Xinjiang. According to Suzanne Ogden, only six incidents in China from 1990 to 2005 meet the strictest definition of terrorism, meaning the use of "random" violence against innocent civilians to cause terror, and excluding calculated violence against the state to advance a secessionist movement.[5] Among these unambiguous acts of terrorism was an incident on 6 February 1992 when Muslim extremists (possibly belonging to the East Turkestan Islamic Party) detonated a bomb on a public bus in Urumqi, and a bomb attack on a hotel in Kashgar on 17 June 1992.[11] Instances of violence by ethnic Uyghurs against security forces, organs or infrastructure of the state are far more common, and are also classified as terrorism under Chinese law.
Consider rewriting it along these lines:
According to Suzanne Ogden, six incidents in China from 1990 to 2005 involved "random" violence against innocent civilians to cause terror, and excluding calculated violence against the state to advance a secessionist movement.[5] Ogden includes under this definition of terrorism an incident on 6 February 1992 when Muslim extremists (possibly belonging to the East Turkestan Islamic Party) detonated a bomb on a public bus in Urumqi, and a bomb attack on a hotel in Kashgar on 17 June 1992.[11] Instances of violence by ethnic Uyghurs against security forces, organs or infrastructure of the state are common, and are classified as terrorism under Chinese law. citation needed [What law? Here is an opportunity to discuss what the Chinese define as terrorism]
The above is not meant to be perfect and I have not checked [11] to see if it is an attack discussed by Suzanne Ogden but it is an attempt to give an example of how this article can be rewritten so that it contains the same information but does not editorialise about what is or is not terrorism. -- PBS ( talk) 22:08, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
A number of rather significant changes were made to the article quite recently [6]. I have not yet reviewed these thoroughly, and since some appear constructive, I did not revert. However, I have some objections to register, and hope for a cogent response:
I think that's all, but I may have missed some things. Homunculus ( duihua) 01:09, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with some of the changes shown in this diff [12] because I think transparency in sourcing is important, and the reader should be clear that they are reading official accounts of things--in the text. These accounts should not be represented as plain facts, but as facts according to Xinhua, or other state media. Does anyone else disagree, and think that readers should be expected to check the reference, and that the sources not be mentioned in the text? The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 18:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Another question: PCPP, what is this Elizabeth Van Wie Davis source? Is it a conference paper? It's not clear. The author appears to be a professor at a mining school specializing in energy issues. I'm asking because of the statement that members of the Hui ethnic group regard Uyghurs as separatists giving Muslims a bad name. Van Wei Davis appears to have taken this phrasing from this New York Times article [13], which she cites. It might be better to simply cite the Times in this case (though I would prefer a scholarly source that gives a little more nuance; surely not all Hui think this way). Homunculus ( duihua) 21:50, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Information about actual incidents should be classified as most political and social science information in China is. We would only have information if an external organization has it or it is released by China in answer to external coverage or to make a point. In other words, we have no access to neutral Chinese information, only to biased information they chose to release, or distort. User:Fred Bauder Talk 19:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Looking at the page now, do you have any thoughts on where it needs to be expanded / improved / made more nuanced? There are a couple things on my list, but would appreciate feedback on the general direction. My next step is to expand section on counter-terrorism efforts. For domestic terrorism, this should include more present-day information, as well as perhaps a subsection noting the human rights concerns that the policies have engendered. For international cooperation, need to add information on cooperation with the UN, United States, and an account of the Uyghurs who were sent to Guantanamo. Homunculus ( duihua) 18:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
This edit has removed inappropriate language from a biased source; however, it has also removed even a summary of the conditions in Tibet prior to the reforms instituted after Hu Yaobang's visit in 1980; he is said to have wept openly upon hearing Tibetan grievances. User:Fred Bauder Talk 09:30, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Edits look good to me. Homunculus ( duihua) 16:54, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I added a request for citation for the statement "The group [ETIM] has a close relation with al-Qaeda and Taliban," but was reverted. I see now that one of the sources cited earlier in that paragraph, MSNBC, does say this [14]. However, I'm wondering if we could get more clarity on this point, as most of the sources I've read don't make such categorical affirmative statements. My understanding is that the Chinese government asserts this connection, but that there is little definitive proof. Here is what I've found in reports:
I think we need a more even-handed approach when describing the alleged links to al Qaeda. Homunculus ( duihua) 18:55, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
References
Chung
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This article has an anti-Tibetan POV. Comparing Tibetan resistance with bombings in Xinjiang is complete nonsense. Despite Chinese hatred of the Tibetans, the Chinese government hasn't even officially listed any Tibetan organizations as terrorist! No one outside of China's propaganda offices takes the claims of terrorism seriously.-- JeremyMiller ( talk) 05:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I also have an issue with heading above Xinjiang. It implies that terrorism in Xinjiang is strictly related to ethnic separatism, when the reality, as explained by the sources, is that Xinjiang incidents are motivated by a variety of ideologies, including Uyghur nationalism, pan-Turkism, and Islam. There is no unified Uyghur ideology in Xinjiang, and different segments of Uyghur society are motivated by different ideologies. Some Uyghurs only demand autonomy, others demand government respect for their religious and political rights, to say that all of this is "ethnic separatism" is to blindly accept the PRC's line.-- JeremyMiller ( talk) 07:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Unrelated mistakes: We have articles on the specific acts of terrorism ( 1992 Ürümqi bombings, 1997 Ürümqi bus bombings, April 2014 Ürümqi attack, May 2014 Ürümqi attack, &c. &c. &c.) and—at minimum—should be linking those articles when discussion of those attacks come up in the overview treatment presented here, even if the concensus is not to laundry list them all here. Among other things, it will help point out mistakes: the article here said the 1992 bombings in Ürümqi occurred on a bus on 6 February when they actually occurred on 2 buses and in 2 buildings on 5 February. (If the dedicated article is wrong on any of those points, obviously fix it instead. Point stands that the linkthrough is all to the good and should happen.) — LlywelynII 10:17, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter
I would rather edit than tag {Cleanup|date=September 2007}} but I really do not have the background knowledge to do the article justice Aatomic1 16:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
This blog post could serve as a starting point for an expansion of this article: "Major terrorist attacks in China, 1997-2007" Amygdala ( talk) 00:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This page suffers a number of problems, and I would like to try to propose an approach to remedy them. First, there are a few things that need to handled with more caution. When I was editing the lede just now, I noticed that Uyghur separatism was linked to a page on Islamic terrorism. Just because most ethnic Uyghurs are Muslim does not mean that they share the same religious, ideological, or political objectives as transnational Islamic terrorists (as the term is usually understood). Quite the opposite, really. They are best understood as a separatist movement motivated by localized political interests, not religious ideology.
We also need to be careful with definitions. I edited the lede to reflect the divergence in the understanding of this term. It's a loaded one, and is particularly controversial in the context of China. Namely, the PRC government has been criticized for labeling non-violent religious or political dissidents as terrorists as a means of legitimizing strike-hard campaigns against them. There should be a section that deals with this in more depth so that a reader can properly contextually and evaluate divergent claims of terrorism. Another section that should be added would examine the laws and legal practices that govern the prosecution of terror cases.
The page in its current form seems to contain only accounts of terrorism by Muslims or in Xinjiang. There are a lot of other instances of terrorism that do not fall within this category (the Fuzhou bombings last year comes to mind [1]). It would therefore be prudent to describe the different manifestations of terrorism in more detail. I should also note that, in keeping with the understanding of terrorism as it was conceptualized after the French Revolution (ie. by states against people), some sources have described the Communist Party's political campaigns are forms of state terrorism, and we can also explore that.
Finally, I would like to ask whether there are any opinions about whether the article should contain a chronological list of events, or whether we should describe trends and notable events in a more integrated manner. Thoughts? Homunculus ( duihua) 18:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure there are other things. I'll come back to it another day. Homunculus ( duihua) 00:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
An editor has deleted the section dealing with manifestations of terrorism, arguing elsewhere that the term is contentious, is not necessarily synonymous with political violence or guerrilla warfare, etc. Editor also said that I misrepresented the Martin source, who discusses Mao's campaigns in the Chinese Civil War as including terror tactics. So, here's a rebuttal. Like genocide and similarly loaded terms, there will never be consensus over what constitutes terrorism. Depending on where one's sympathies lie, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. The line between guerrilla warfare and terrorism, in particular, is frequently blurred. That's why I added a section on etymology and use, which noted the divergent definitions and usages. That section notes that some forms of violence directed against political authorities (for instance, as anti-colonial or secession movements) are not necessarily defined as terrorist activities. In light of this, the argument could be made that Mao's guerrilla tactics were not a manifestation of terrorism. The source I used, Gus Martin's "Understanding terrorism: challenges, perspectives, and issues," also delineates between guerrilla warfare and terrorism by saying that the terms are not synonymous. However, the fact that they are not synonymous does not mean that guerrilla warfare is never terrorism. It means simply that it is not necessarily terrorism. In the case of Mao's campaign, Martin explains that terrorism was a strategic instrument in the "people's war" practiced by Mao. Here's the relevant excerpt:
I will try to rewrite the section again, and will take care to be more explicit in providing necessary qualifiers. As to the section on state terror, editor who deleted said (elsewhere) that state terrorism does not comport with the common usage of terrorism as acts committed by non-state actors, and that Mao's campaigns were simply political repression. That is true in the contemporary context. As I wrote in the section on etymology, however, this has not always been the case. Several sources, three of which were cited, do describe Mao's political campaigns as forms of terror (sometimes directly comparing these campaigns to those of Robespierre, after whom the term was devised). I would also exhort deleting editor to explore the genre of Cultural Revolution memoirs. Doing so might disabuse him of the notion that the Cultural Revolution was merely repression.
I also feel obligated to note that most of the events described by Chinese officials today as acts of Uyghur terrorism are not true terrorism either, but are instead part of a secessionist movement. Furthermore, Uyghur violence is directed almost exclusively against organs of the state, and the intent to induce terror in the civilian population does not appear to be a major component. Does this mean that those events should all be deleted off the page? I don't think so. I think it just means that we should be careful in describing these events, making clear the sources of contentious claims, the political context in which allegations of terrorism are made and, where available, divergent accounts.
Lastly, I really would like to work collaboratively with other editors on this page to ensure that it is nuanced, complete, and impeccably sourced. I would welcome in particular editors with expertise in the relevant field; terrorism studies were in vogue when I was in grad school, but I remember little and retained only a couple books. Ultimately, I think this page could become a good article. But deleting massive, sourced sections of content without discussion is not really constructive. Homunculus ( duihua) 19:16, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I just ordered the chronology of events as a table. This section was badly lacking in sources before, so I went and read articles on almost all the events listed, adding references and clarifying details. I think it's important to note when allegations originated with Chinese state-run media. Very, very few events are ever independently corroborated, and when journalists do attempt to travel to Xinjiang, they are generally thwarted. I also removed a couple things that appeared to be non-events (eg. video messages warning Uyghur not to hang out with Han Chinese during the Olympics), and incidents that were clearly not terrorist incidents (eg. a bus burning in Hubei. No one called this a terrorist event). Additional scrutiny is still needed. Also, several events that much more readily meet the criteria for terrorist attacks are not currently included on the page. I will do some more research and add more. Homunculus ( duihua) 19:42, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I just updated the page with the following changes:
There are a several things that are still missing, as I see it:
Maybe there are things I've overlooked. (Constructive) feedback is welcome. Homunculus ( duihua) 20:19, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Another editor deleted the section addressing Tibet within the subheading of ethnic separatism, calling it "appalling editorialization". Now, I'll concede that the section (which I started earlier today) needed to be expanded with more sources, and I just wanted to get it started by drawing on Suzanne Ogden's survey of terrorism in contemporary China. I don't think my edits were especially "appalling," but maybe I'm suffering some kind of strange cognitive filter that is impeding self awareness. Here's a comparison. This is what I wrote (ref tags removed):
Here's what the source writes:
Now, in the event that I have failed to do justice to the source, I would strongly encourage others to try constructively improve upon what I've written, and expand this section with additional sources. Homunculus ( duihua) 02:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
A note regarding edits recently made to this section (and others): some of these changes did improve the concision and quality of the prose, I think, though there are a couple things I'd like to point out that still need to be refined. First, the editor deleted some references that refer to non-violent acts (including simply emigrating from China, or participating in "illegal" religious activity) is sometimes labelled terrorism by Chinese officials. This was replaced with a very specific (I think too specific) example of how authorities condemned the recent self-immolations of Tibetans as terrorism. I would also note that the Dalai Lama, who was accused of "terrorism in disguise" for fasting and praying for the self-immolators, was not actually condoning these, though authorities claimed he was. The text, as currently written, does not make that clear.
Another problem is that the section on Tibet may be interpreted to suggest that Tibetans have no ongoing, legitimate reason to feel aggrieved. I wrote in a previous version that repressive policies were eased beginning in 1980. While this was an improvement, we must remember that policies under Mao involved human rights abuses of a staggering scale and the near-complete destruction of Tibetan culture. Human rights abuses and restrictions to religious freedom persist, as do (admittedly less aggressive) attempts at assimilation. It's partly my fault, but none of this made clear in the article. I will make some edits to address this, but will wait for a reply to see if anyone has thoughts on the best approach. Homunculus ( duihua) 00:39, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
An editor has deleted the section about state terror for a second time. [4] As is typical, editor has refused to discuss the reason for deletion on the talk page, but said in the edit summary that "state terror has been widely disputed." I would like to be educated about the nature of that dispute. Specifically, I'm interested to see explicit rebuttals against the scholars who have characterized campaigns under Mao as state-sanctioned terrorism. Please don't delete again without discussing this. Homunculus ( duihua) 04:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
The Chairman of the United Nations Counter-Terrorism Committee has stated that the twelve previous international conventions on terrorism had never referred to state terrorism, which was not an international legal concept, and that when states abuse their powers they should be judged against international conventions dealing with war crimes, international human rights and international humanitarian law, rather than against international anti-terrorism statutes. In a similar vein, Kofi Annan, at the time United Nations Secretary-General, stated that it is "time to set aside debates on so-called 'state terrorism'. The use of force by states is already regulated under international law" Annan added, "...regardless of the differences between governments on the question of definition of terrorism, what is clear and what we can all agree on is any deliberate attack on innocent civilians, regardless of one's cause, is unacceptable and fits into the definition of terrorism."
Dr. Bruce Hoffman has argued that failing to differentiate between state and non-state violence ignores the fact that there is a “fundamental qualitative difference between the two types of violence.” Hoffman argues that even in war there are rules and accepted norms of behavior that prohibit certain types of weapons and tactics and outlaw attacks on specific categories of targets. For instance, rules codified in the Geneva and Hague conventions on warfare prohibit taking civilians as hostages, outlaw reprisals against either civilians or POW’s, recognize neutral territory, etc. Hoffman states that “even the most cursory review of terrorist tactics and targets over the past quarter century reveals that terrorists have violated all these rules.” Hoffman also states that when states transgress these rules of war “the term “war crime” is used to describe such acts.
Walter Laqueur has stated that those who argue that state terrorism should be included in studies of terrorism ignore the fact that “The very existence of a state is based on its monopoly on violence. If it were different, states would not have the right, nor be in a position, to maintain that minimum of order on which all civilized life rests.” Calling the concept a “red herring” he stated: “This argument has been used by the terrorists themselves, arguing that there is no difference between their activities and those by governments and states. It has also been employed by some sympathizers, and rests on the deliberate obfuscation between all kinds of violence...”
What you're doing here is effectively editorializing and spin the article into some sort of justification of terrorism by non-state actors against the PRC government.-- PCPP ( talk) 04:45, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
':::::I don't care what KMT sponsored academics like Dikkoter thinks, they're not experts on terrorism or even state terrorism. And "Red Terror", "mass terror", and "state terrorism" are not interchangeable words as you're trying to claim, considering that the Anti-Movements and Cultural Revolution are largely seen as political repression and mass movements respectively. In contrast, terrorism specialists like Hoffman and Laqueur already pointed out why "state terrorism" is not terrorism - that states have a monopoly on violence and are subject to international conventions which non-state actors are not bound by. Furthermore, UNSC Resolution 1566 defined terrorism as "criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act". You are, in fact, trying to synthesize your own definition of terrorism.-- PCPP ( talk) 12:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Having researched the subject there are numerous critiques of Dikotter and other western historians (from which the notion of state terrorism in the cultural revolution is entirely synthesised) essentially they do not have legitimate sources and their argument is bereft of factual, verifiable sources. The specific sources they mention of violence in the cultural revolution were not planned or initiated by the state. ( duihua) 06:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.241.184 ( talk)
I was invited to review this article by Homunculus.
The article Definitions of terrorism explains why there is no universally agreed meaning to the term terrorism, and the section Terrorism#Pejorative use explains why the use of terrorism carries non neutral connotations. So given that there are several things that are problematic about this article.
The first is the title of the article. "Terrorism in the People's Republic of China" it implies that in the opinion of Wikipedia editors there is terrorism in the China.
The next problem is the lead. It is in clear violation of WP:TERRORISM. The best way to handle accusation of terrorism is to state what the action are and then who describes those actions as terrorism. To see a good example of this look at the lead in the al Quada article. Until recently it included the line:
It now says:
and this change was accepted after a long debate because in the same lead the article says
So it was agreed that there was no need for Wikipedia to express the opinion that al Quada in the passive narrative voice of the article.
I suggest that the article is rewritten to completely remove the passive narrative use of the term terrorism and terrorist and always attribute it to the article. Once that is done rewrite the lead in a similar way to remove the current POV.
For example the article currently says:
Most instances of terrorism by non-state actors in contemporary China involve members of the largely Muslim Uyghur ethnic group, who are concentrated in the Northwestern province of Xinjiang. According to Suzanne Ogden, only six incidents in China from 1990 to 2005 meet the strictest definition of terrorism, meaning the use of "random" violence against innocent civilians to cause terror, and excluding calculated violence against the state to advance a secessionist movement.[5] Among these unambiguous acts of terrorism was an incident on 6 February 1992 when Muslim extremists (possibly belonging to the East Turkestan Islamic Party) detonated a bomb on a public bus in Urumqi, and a bomb attack on a hotel in Kashgar on 17 June 1992.[11] Instances of violence by ethnic Uyghurs against security forces, organs or infrastructure of the state are far more common, and are also classified as terrorism under Chinese law.
Consider rewriting it along these lines:
According to Suzanne Ogden, six incidents in China from 1990 to 2005 involved "random" violence against innocent civilians to cause terror, and excluding calculated violence against the state to advance a secessionist movement.[5] Ogden includes under this definition of terrorism an incident on 6 February 1992 when Muslim extremists (possibly belonging to the East Turkestan Islamic Party) detonated a bomb on a public bus in Urumqi, and a bomb attack on a hotel in Kashgar on 17 June 1992.[11] Instances of violence by ethnic Uyghurs against security forces, organs or infrastructure of the state are common, and are classified as terrorism under Chinese law. citation needed [What law? Here is an opportunity to discuss what the Chinese define as terrorism]
The above is not meant to be perfect and I have not checked [11] to see if it is an attack discussed by Suzanne Ogden but it is an attempt to give an example of how this article can be rewritten so that it contains the same information but does not editorialise about what is or is not terrorism. -- PBS ( talk) 22:08, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
A number of rather significant changes were made to the article quite recently [6]. I have not yet reviewed these thoroughly, and since some appear constructive, I did not revert. However, I have some objections to register, and hope for a cogent response:
I think that's all, but I may have missed some things. Homunculus ( duihua) 01:09, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with some of the changes shown in this diff [12] because I think transparency in sourcing is important, and the reader should be clear that they are reading official accounts of things--in the text. These accounts should not be represented as plain facts, but as facts according to Xinhua, or other state media. Does anyone else disagree, and think that readers should be expected to check the reference, and that the sources not be mentioned in the text? The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 18:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Another question: PCPP, what is this Elizabeth Van Wie Davis source? Is it a conference paper? It's not clear. The author appears to be a professor at a mining school specializing in energy issues. I'm asking because of the statement that members of the Hui ethnic group regard Uyghurs as separatists giving Muslims a bad name. Van Wei Davis appears to have taken this phrasing from this New York Times article [13], which she cites. It might be better to simply cite the Times in this case (though I would prefer a scholarly source that gives a little more nuance; surely not all Hui think this way). Homunculus ( duihua) 21:50, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Information about actual incidents should be classified as most political and social science information in China is. We would only have information if an external organization has it or it is released by China in answer to external coverage or to make a point. In other words, we have no access to neutral Chinese information, only to biased information they chose to release, or distort. User:Fred Bauder Talk 19:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Looking at the page now, do you have any thoughts on where it needs to be expanded / improved / made more nuanced? There are a couple things on my list, but would appreciate feedback on the general direction. My next step is to expand section on counter-terrorism efforts. For domestic terrorism, this should include more present-day information, as well as perhaps a subsection noting the human rights concerns that the policies have engendered. For international cooperation, need to add information on cooperation with the UN, United States, and an account of the Uyghurs who were sent to Guantanamo. Homunculus ( duihua) 18:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
This edit has removed inappropriate language from a biased source; however, it has also removed even a summary of the conditions in Tibet prior to the reforms instituted after Hu Yaobang's visit in 1980; he is said to have wept openly upon hearing Tibetan grievances. User:Fred Bauder Talk 09:30, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Edits look good to me. Homunculus ( duihua) 16:54, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I added a request for citation for the statement "The group [ETIM] has a close relation with al-Qaeda and Taliban," but was reverted. I see now that one of the sources cited earlier in that paragraph, MSNBC, does say this [14]. However, I'm wondering if we could get more clarity on this point, as most of the sources I've read don't make such categorical affirmative statements. My understanding is that the Chinese government asserts this connection, but that there is little definitive proof. Here is what I've found in reports:
I think we need a more even-handed approach when describing the alleged links to al Qaeda. Homunculus ( duihua) 18:55, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
References
Chung
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This article has an anti-Tibetan POV. Comparing Tibetan resistance with bombings in Xinjiang is complete nonsense. Despite Chinese hatred of the Tibetans, the Chinese government hasn't even officially listed any Tibetan organizations as terrorist! No one outside of China's propaganda offices takes the claims of terrorism seriously.-- JeremyMiller ( talk) 05:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I also have an issue with heading above Xinjiang. It implies that terrorism in Xinjiang is strictly related to ethnic separatism, when the reality, as explained by the sources, is that Xinjiang incidents are motivated by a variety of ideologies, including Uyghur nationalism, pan-Turkism, and Islam. There is no unified Uyghur ideology in Xinjiang, and different segments of Uyghur society are motivated by different ideologies. Some Uyghurs only demand autonomy, others demand government respect for their religious and political rights, to say that all of this is "ethnic separatism" is to blindly accept the PRC's line.-- JeremyMiller ( talk) 07:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Unrelated mistakes: We have articles on the specific acts of terrorism ( 1992 Ürümqi bombings, 1997 Ürümqi bus bombings, April 2014 Ürümqi attack, May 2014 Ürümqi attack, &c. &c. &c.) and—at minimum—should be linking those articles when discussion of those attacks come up in the overview treatment presented here, even if the concensus is not to laundry list them all here. Among other things, it will help point out mistakes: the article here said the 1992 bombings in Ürümqi occurred on a bus on 6 February when they actually occurred on 2 buses and in 2 buildings on 5 February. (If the dedicated article is wrong on any of those points, obviously fix it instead. Point stands that the linkthrough is all to the good and should happen.) — LlywelynII 10:17, 1 May 2023 (UTC)