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Dr. Michael Baden was the forensic pathologist who suggested that Terri Schiavo may have been the victim of trauma. The article stated that he since retracted this suggestion. But after searching several permutations of "baden", "schiavo", "potassium", "infarction", and "cardiac arrest" I have yet to find an article which states that Dr. Michael Baden retracted his assessment. I have commented out the paragraph which read "However, this pathologist has since reviewed the medical record, and retracted his statements as they were made under the assumption that she was claimed to have had a heart attack rather than a cardiac arrest. Physical trauma would not be necessary to explain her collapse, as her potassium and calcium levels were more than sufficiently low to cause cardiac arrest."
If you can find a citation for this retraction, please replace the paragraph (and cite its source). Rhobite 19:44, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
I also searched for it, and I also failed to find it.
Also, Baden's primary expertise is forensic pathology. His opinion about whether Terri was the victim of domestic violence is highly relevant (he says she was). However, he is not a neurologist or therapist, so he is not the best person to ask about the prospects for improvement in Terri's condition, from the therapy that she has been denied. So why is his opinion on that subject singled out for inclusion in this article, rather than the more expert (and contrary) opinion of two speech therapists and nine doctors (such as neurologist Hammesfahr), who say that they think she could benefit from therapy? NCdave 16:27, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
March 15, 2005 Answer: Indeed, Baden's assessment is highly relevant. The statements he made long ago were based only on the bone scan he was shown by the producer at Fox News. 3 weeks ago, however, he came back on Greta and discussed her entire medical profile, explaining the eating disorder -> -> severely low potassium --> cardiac arrest. The only reference is at [1] -- note at the bottom of the page, you will see that Greta writes: At P.S. In case you missed it, I have posted my interview with attorney Gary Fox and Dr. Michael Baden as they examine how Terri Schiavo (search) came to be in her current state. Click on the link in the video box above to watch it. I am unable to watch it from here, but saw the original broadcast, and read about the disappointment among the friends of Terri's parents that he had changed his views.
In addition, [2] is a link to the unedited disposition of the radiologist (who wrote the report, having never seen Mrs Schiavo, and knowing nothing about her medical history.) The physicians who saw and treated Mrs Schiavo at the time, and followed up on more radiology, found nothing suspicious. --gretchen
Both of those are good & informative links; thanks for posting them.
The Greta/Foxnews link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148742,00.html worked fine for me. In the (very brief) interview, Dr. Baden did not discuss or recant his previously stated opinion that Terri was abused, but he did briefly discuss how fad diets and bulimia could cause a potassium imbalance which could cause cardiac arrest, which is certainly a change from his previous statements in which he said, "It's extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases," and [such an occurrence would be] "extremely unusual unless she had certain kind of diseases, which she doesn't have." NCdave 09:50, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have replaced "euthanasia" with "right-to-die" in the headings. My reasoning is that this is not a case of euthanasia - no life-support is going to be turned off. Nobody will actually be actively causing Terri's death if the feeding tube is removed, rather, her death will be the passive result. As such, I do not believe that it fits the dfinition of "euthanasia".
A dictionary definition to support this, taken from: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=euthanasia
"The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment."
Again, I don't think that removing the feeding tube qualifies here, since that mere act will not end her life, whereas a lethal injection or the removal of life-support would.
Now, if anybody thinks that "right-to-die" is too loaded a term, it can be changed, I'm not particularly attached to it. I just thought it fit, under the circumstances.
Thanks, by the way, to whoever it was who actually went around and added headings. It was reading like quite a rambling monologue before, after being split up it's much easier on the eyes. Cheers!
Lankiveil 12:20, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC).
Too clinical sounding? Give me a break.
As several other participants on here seem to agree we had a pretty good NPOV article with the version from March 14. Since then there has been a whole string of, in my view, less NPOV edits. It is however pretty hard for me to "fight" such a dedicated editor as NCDave who obviously feels quite strongly about this subject. NCDave, please realize that we're not vandals who believe Schiavo must be killed. We just like our encyclopedia to be as neutral as it can be, and inserting tons of links to very biased groups' articles and using inflammatory language is not the way to achieve this. Your compassion for this woman is admirable, but this is not the place to fight the good fight. Try calling the ACLU and give them a piece of your mind instead ;) Preisler 23:25, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I must admit, I don't know too much about this controversy, but I decided to do my part by adding the George Greer article with a mini biography of all the objective stuff I've heard about him. Since I am not a Terri Schiavo expert, I would appreciate it if someone went on there and did all they could to bring it up to par a little. I have no real opinion in this matter, I just decided to add the page. Thanks.
-- Jan 21:38, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
This is missing from the article.
I came into the story late and I don't understand why Michael wants to remove the feeding tube. It is just "shes suffering and wants to die"? I'm totally confused. Someone please explain why he wants to remove it.
-- Uncle Bungle 21:50, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Michael claims she would not want to live like this. Others dispute this claiming he wants the rest of the money she won in a medical malpractice suit (do note however he was offered a lot more money by others to hand care of her over to her parents) or that he just wants to marry the other woman (why exactly he wouldn't just divorce her is never explained by these people tho). Personally for me the bigger queston is why don't her parents want the tube withdrawn. I'm not so convinced it's really because they consider it against their beliefs. Personally, I'm inclined to believe they want to punish her for marrying her husband and for getting herself into her condition in the first place --
I'm not sure how much more clearly it can be explained (without resorting to opinion). "Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband, is her legal guardian. He contends that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state and that he is carrying out her wishes to not be kept alive in that state." That's what he claims, anyway. Anything else is speculation, but in my opinion you have to speculate in order to discover his true motives. After all, why would her wishes matter if she is not conscious? anthony 警告 03:44, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The more I read here, the more I realize that this Talk: page is indeed a flaming wreck. Is vegetative disparaging??? Good luck sorting this out. -- AStanhope 03:00, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think a point worthy of inclusion somewhere is the fact that if she were very such a devout Roman Catholic who would never do anything to hurt herself why exactly would she allow herself to suffer from bulimia, which appears to be the likely cause of her condition BTW. I'm pretty sure harming yourself by bulimia is not something a devout Roman Catholic should do...
I also think another related issue that needs including is the fact that she would likely have not wanted to discuss the issue of her wishes not do want to be kept alive artificially with her parents and family if they were so vehemently opposed to the idea, especially given the fact it appears they never liked her husband and therefore were probably already disappointed with her as it is. Once again I should point out I'm not suggesting we include this whole thing. Simply something like "she may not have wanted to mention her views to her family if they were strongly opposed to to this idea"
Since there appears to be a lot of confusion on what the death process is like by withdrawl of feeding tube, I have added a link outlining it. Hope this is not disputed
Proposing a clarification on the parents' view. They believe she is in a "minimally conscious state" rather than a "persistent vegetative state." Apparently the former is a recent medical description of mental state.
However I do have another proposed clarification. I think one thing which should be added is that if I understand correctly, her doctors never used any of the supposed evidence that her husband abused her and may have partially caused her condition in their defence in the medicla malpratice suit. They had all the info available but the fact they did not use it suggest strongly to me that they did not think it is worth anything. I'm not saying we should say this in the article but I think it should at least be mentioned that they did not use any of it
Also another thing I think that needs clarification is about the xray scan and associated report that her parents are trying to use to claim she was abused. It's said in the article that it was not hidden and that they had access to it for a while. I think this point need clarificiation. Had the parents seen it before or is it simply that it was in a file her parents had access to but never viewed?
As if this article isn't already complicated enough, I think we ought to either include here a discussion about how the issue is playing out on a national, Congressional, and (ultimately) Constitutional level. If the temperature runs too hot here, we should have a link to a separate entry on the political angle of Schiavo. Again, I'm someone coming to this entry from the NPOV perspective, with a believe in Wikipedia's power to objectively describe history, including history as it evolves. 24.25.219.8 07:15, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am quite sure that "right to privacy" issues are at the fundamental center of the legal controversy surrounding the Federal government's intervention in this case. Senator Rick Santorum is at the center of a far-right effort to spearhead the end of right to privacy in this country, and has been particularly outspoken against Griswold v. Connecticut, the 1965 Supreme Court decision which legalized the use of birth control by married [heterosexual, obviously] couples. The lack of the Constitution's mention of the word "marriage" is one reason why the far right demanded both the first and second sentences of the proposed Federal Marriage Amendment, which gives to the Federal government untold new powers of super-jurisdiction over the value and validity of state constitutions within the United States. The Terri Schiavo effort is of primary important in this larger, and as yet unremarked upon, agenda of the far right. This needs to be addressed. 24.25.219.8 22:13, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
SS451, you wrote: "In the wake of the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003), the enforceability of this statute is doubtful."
But, to my knowledge, Lawrence said nothing about adultery. On what do you base that statement? NCdave 09:38, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have now removed those two sentences about the adultery statute, for three main reasons. First of all, this isn't an argument even Terri's parents are making, so it certainly isn't our place to make it for them, then put it in the article. Second, adultery statutes are, by widespread practice, not currently enforced in the United States. If someone can demonstrate that the Florida law is an exception, by, say, providing evidence that any person has been charged, convicted, and sentenced under this law in the last decade, this point could possibly be put back in. Third, the Supreme Court decision in Lawrence renders the whole thing moot, since the statute is almost certainly impossible to enforce. SS451 19:05, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
I found the article has a wavering POV, but such a topic is bound to cause 'emotions' and 'emotions' lead to lack of thought and people making statements without fully thinking them out.
This incident will play out as it has to. It's both a legalistic disgrace and a perverse sideshow. Should the parents be able to force their wishes onto the situation? One thing is for sure, that opens a whole new can of worms that I don't think people really want to open.
Should the 'abuse' allegations be made on Wiki? Since that was the first time that I'd heard of them, considering the potential 'bombshell' effect of them outside of a court of law, I'd say that they just add to the emotional baggage that this incident has. IF they were part of a valid case, AND found by that lawsuit to be valid, then they deserve to be here. Accusations are like rumours and opinions...
What needs to be covered is the machinations of the legislative bodies and the immense coverage that the protesters are both demanding and getting.
This incident I feel will go down as an embarrasment of the American justice and legislative system.
The hypocrisy of a government throwing lives away in pointless wars and yet championing the 'cause du jour' of the 'religious' right I feel is an issue. This is adding tremendously to the ability of Tom DeLay and others to shift the focus off of his lack of ethics as a House of Representatives member.
Everybody likes seeing other people's dirty laundry... This case could set a very dangerous precedent of future legislative meddling in private matters.
Has anyone seen a source for this statement? The paragraph it appears in includes a citation link, but the BBC story at the link refers only to a (very real) $1 million offer. I think that the $10 million offer is presented in a way that merits continued inclusion in the article... I am simply curious what citations, if any, there are. -- AStanhope 18:00, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There has been a lot of talk about how painful her death is supposedly going to be. This is not really backed up by doctors from what I can see and the article I linked to supports. So does anyone else think it might good to mention this where it mentioned her death? Something like although this may sound like a painful way to do, the experience of most doctors suggest otherwise. and then link to the article. Or does this sound too POV?
The article is filled with "Terri" and "Michael". Is this the usual practice? I would prefer Ms. Schiavo or Mrs. Sciavo and Mr. Schiavo or just their full names. Calling them only by first name seems a bit too involved. What's your feelings on this? And does Wikipedia have a policy on this? Preisler 21:11, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why in the beggining of the article does it state there is no evidence ofr abuse, but later in the article it states very bluntly that they have found strong evidence of abuse through bone scans.
The number of links needs to be trimmed down. Hopefully during consensus in the coming days, we can weed out the ones that don't need to be there. Mike H 03:16, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Dr. Michael Baden was the forensic pathologist who suggested that Terri Schiavo may have been the victim of trauma. The article stated that he since retracted this suggestion. But after searching several permutations of "baden", "schiavo", "potassium", "infarction", and "cardiac arrest" I have yet to find an article which states that Dr. Michael Baden retracted his assessment. I have commented out the paragraph which read "However, this pathologist has since reviewed the medical record, and retracted his statements as they were made under the assumption that she was claimed to have had a heart attack rather than a cardiac arrest. Physical trauma would not be necessary to explain her collapse, as her potassium and calcium levels were more than sufficiently low to cause cardiac arrest."
If you can find a citation for this retraction, please replace the paragraph (and cite its source). Rhobite 19:44, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
I also searched for it, and I also failed to find it.
Also, Baden's primary expertise is forensic pathology. His opinion about whether Terri was the victim of domestic violence is highly relevant (he says she was). However, he is not a neurologist or therapist, so he is not the best person to ask about the prospects for improvement in Terri's condition, from the therapy that she has been denied. So why is his opinion on that subject singled out for inclusion in this article, rather than the more expert (and contrary) opinion of two speech therapists and nine doctors (such as neurologist Hammesfahr), who say that they think she could benefit from therapy? NCdave 16:27, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
March 15, 2005 Answer: Indeed, Baden's assessment is highly relevant. The statements he made long ago were based only on the bone scan he was shown by the producer at Fox News. 3 weeks ago, however, he came back on Greta and discussed her entire medical profile, explaining the eating disorder -> -> severely low potassium --> cardiac arrest. The only reference is at [1] -- note at the bottom of the page, you will see that Greta writes: At P.S. In case you missed it, I have posted my interview with attorney Gary Fox and Dr. Michael Baden as they examine how Terri Schiavo (search) came to be in her current state. Click on the link in the video box above to watch it. I am unable to watch it from here, but saw the original broadcast, and read about the disappointment among the friends of Terri's parents that he had changed his views.
In addition, [2] is a link to the unedited disposition of the radiologist (who wrote the report, having never seen Mrs Schiavo, and knowing nothing about her medical history.) The physicians who saw and treated Mrs Schiavo at the time, and followed up on more radiology, found nothing suspicious. --gretchen
Both of those are good & informative links; thanks for posting them.
The Greta/Foxnews link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148742,00.html worked fine for me. In the (very brief) interview, Dr. Baden did not discuss or recant his previously stated opinion that Terri was abused, but he did briefly discuss how fad diets and bulimia could cause a potassium imbalance which could cause cardiac arrest, which is certainly a change from his previous statements in which he said, "It's extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases," and [such an occurrence would be] "extremely unusual unless she had certain kind of diseases, which she doesn't have." NCdave 09:50, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have replaced "euthanasia" with "right-to-die" in the headings. My reasoning is that this is not a case of euthanasia - no life-support is going to be turned off. Nobody will actually be actively causing Terri's death if the feeding tube is removed, rather, her death will be the passive result. As such, I do not believe that it fits the dfinition of "euthanasia".
A dictionary definition to support this, taken from: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=euthanasia
"The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment."
Again, I don't think that removing the feeding tube qualifies here, since that mere act will not end her life, whereas a lethal injection or the removal of life-support would.
Now, if anybody thinks that "right-to-die" is too loaded a term, it can be changed, I'm not particularly attached to it. I just thought it fit, under the circumstances.
Thanks, by the way, to whoever it was who actually went around and added headings. It was reading like quite a rambling monologue before, after being split up it's much easier on the eyes. Cheers!
Lankiveil 12:20, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC).
Too clinical sounding? Give me a break.
As several other participants on here seem to agree we had a pretty good NPOV article with the version from March 14. Since then there has been a whole string of, in my view, less NPOV edits. It is however pretty hard for me to "fight" such a dedicated editor as NCDave who obviously feels quite strongly about this subject. NCDave, please realize that we're not vandals who believe Schiavo must be killed. We just like our encyclopedia to be as neutral as it can be, and inserting tons of links to very biased groups' articles and using inflammatory language is not the way to achieve this. Your compassion for this woman is admirable, but this is not the place to fight the good fight. Try calling the ACLU and give them a piece of your mind instead ;) Preisler 23:25, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I must admit, I don't know too much about this controversy, but I decided to do my part by adding the George Greer article with a mini biography of all the objective stuff I've heard about him. Since I am not a Terri Schiavo expert, I would appreciate it if someone went on there and did all they could to bring it up to par a little. I have no real opinion in this matter, I just decided to add the page. Thanks.
-- Jan 21:38, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
This is missing from the article.
I came into the story late and I don't understand why Michael wants to remove the feeding tube. It is just "shes suffering and wants to die"? I'm totally confused. Someone please explain why he wants to remove it.
-- Uncle Bungle 21:50, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Michael claims she would not want to live like this. Others dispute this claiming he wants the rest of the money she won in a medical malpractice suit (do note however he was offered a lot more money by others to hand care of her over to her parents) or that he just wants to marry the other woman (why exactly he wouldn't just divorce her is never explained by these people tho). Personally for me the bigger queston is why don't her parents want the tube withdrawn. I'm not so convinced it's really because they consider it against their beliefs. Personally, I'm inclined to believe they want to punish her for marrying her husband and for getting herself into her condition in the first place --
I'm not sure how much more clearly it can be explained (without resorting to opinion). "Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband, is her legal guardian. He contends that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state and that he is carrying out her wishes to not be kept alive in that state." That's what he claims, anyway. Anything else is speculation, but in my opinion you have to speculate in order to discover his true motives. After all, why would her wishes matter if she is not conscious? anthony 警告 03:44, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The more I read here, the more I realize that this Talk: page is indeed a flaming wreck. Is vegetative disparaging??? Good luck sorting this out. -- AStanhope 03:00, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think a point worthy of inclusion somewhere is the fact that if she were very such a devout Roman Catholic who would never do anything to hurt herself why exactly would she allow herself to suffer from bulimia, which appears to be the likely cause of her condition BTW. I'm pretty sure harming yourself by bulimia is not something a devout Roman Catholic should do...
I also think another related issue that needs including is the fact that she would likely have not wanted to discuss the issue of her wishes not do want to be kept alive artificially with her parents and family if they were so vehemently opposed to the idea, especially given the fact it appears they never liked her husband and therefore were probably already disappointed with her as it is. Once again I should point out I'm not suggesting we include this whole thing. Simply something like "she may not have wanted to mention her views to her family if they were strongly opposed to to this idea"
Since there appears to be a lot of confusion on what the death process is like by withdrawl of feeding tube, I have added a link outlining it. Hope this is not disputed
Proposing a clarification on the parents' view. They believe she is in a "minimally conscious state" rather than a "persistent vegetative state." Apparently the former is a recent medical description of mental state.
However I do have another proposed clarification. I think one thing which should be added is that if I understand correctly, her doctors never used any of the supposed evidence that her husband abused her and may have partially caused her condition in their defence in the medicla malpratice suit. They had all the info available but the fact they did not use it suggest strongly to me that they did not think it is worth anything. I'm not saying we should say this in the article but I think it should at least be mentioned that they did not use any of it
Also another thing I think that needs clarification is about the xray scan and associated report that her parents are trying to use to claim she was abused. It's said in the article that it was not hidden and that they had access to it for a while. I think this point need clarificiation. Had the parents seen it before or is it simply that it was in a file her parents had access to but never viewed?
As if this article isn't already complicated enough, I think we ought to either include here a discussion about how the issue is playing out on a national, Congressional, and (ultimately) Constitutional level. If the temperature runs too hot here, we should have a link to a separate entry on the political angle of Schiavo. Again, I'm someone coming to this entry from the NPOV perspective, with a believe in Wikipedia's power to objectively describe history, including history as it evolves. 24.25.219.8 07:15, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am quite sure that "right to privacy" issues are at the fundamental center of the legal controversy surrounding the Federal government's intervention in this case. Senator Rick Santorum is at the center of a far-right effort to spearhead the end of right to privacy in this country, and has been particularly outspoken against Griswold v. Connecticut, the 1965 Supreme Court decision which legalized the use of birth control by married [heterosexual, obviously] couples. The lack of the Constitution's mention of the word "marriage" is one reason why the far right demanded both the first and second sentences of the proposed Federal Marriage Amendment, which gives to the Federal government untold new powers of super-jurisdiction over the value and validity of state constitutions within the United States. The Terri Schiavo effort is of primary important in this larger, and as yet unremarked upon, agenda of the far right. This needs to be addressed. 24.25.219.8 22:13, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
SS451, you wrote: "In the wake of the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003), the enforceability of this statute is doubtful."
But, to my knowledge, Lawrence said nothing about adultery. On what do you base that statement? NCdave 09:38, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have now removed those two sentences about the adultery statute, for three main reasons. First of all, this isn't an argument even Terri's parents are making, so it certainly isn't our place to make it for them, then put it in the article. Second, adultery statutes are, by widespread practice, not currently enforced in the United States. If someone can demonstrate that the Florida law is an exception, by, say, providing evidence that any person has been charged, convicted, and sentenced under this law in the last decade, this point could possibly be put back in. Third, the Supreme Court decision in Lawrence renders the whole thing moot, since the statute is almost certainly impossible to enforce. SS451 19:05, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
I found the article has a wavering POV, but such a topic is bound to cause 'emotions' and 'emotions' lead to lack of thought and people making statements without fully thinking them out.
This incident will play out as it has to. It's both a legalistic disgrace and a perverse sideshow. Should the parents be able to force their wishes onto the situation? One thing is for sure, that opens a whole new can of worms that I don't think people really want to open.
Should the 'abuse' allegations be made on Wiki? Since that was the first time that I'd heard of them, considering the potential 'bombshell' effect of them outside of a court of law, I'd say that they just add to the emotional baggage that this incident has. IF they were part of a valid case, AND found by that lawsuit to be valid, then they deserve to be here. Accusations are like rumours and opinions...
What needs to be covered is the machinations of the legislative bodies and the immense coverage that the protesters are both demanding and getting.
This incident I feel will go down as an embarrasment of the American justice and legislative system.
The hypocrisy of a government throwing lives away in pointless wars and yet championing the 'cause du jour' of the 'religious' right I feel is an issue. This is adding tremendously to the ability of Tom DeLay and others to shift the focus off of his lack of ethics as a House of Representatives member.
Everybody likes seeing other people's dirty laundry... This case could set a very dangerous precedent of future legislative meddling in private matters.
Has anyone seen a source for this statement? The paragraph it appears in includes a citation link, but the BBC story at the link refers only to a (very real) $1 million offer. I think that the $10 million offer is presented in a way that merits continued inclusion in the article... I am simply curious what citations, if any, there are. -- AStanhope 18:00, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There has been a lot of talk about how painful her death is supposedly going to be. This is not really backed up by doctors from what I can see and the article I linked to supports. So does anyone else think it might good to mention this where it mentioned her death? Something like although this may sound like a painful way to do, the experience of most doctors suggest otherwise. and then link to the article. Or does this sound too POV?
The article is filled with "Terri" and "Michael". Is this the usual practice? I would prefer Ms. Schiavo or Mrs. Sciavo and Mr. Schiavo or just their full names. Calling them only by first name seems a bit too involved. What's your feelings on this? And does Wikipedia have a policy on this? Preisler 21:11, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why in the beggining of the article does it state there is no evidence ofr abuse, but later in the article it states very bluntly that they have found strong evidence of abuse through bone scans.
The number of links needs to be trimmed down. Hopefully during consensus in the coming days, we can weed out the ones that don't need to be there. Mike H 03:16, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)