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It was debated earlier but seems to have returned: inaccurate terminology with respect to "end of life". Usage of this term presumes that in some sense Terri was at "end of life" in 1990 or prior to 2005. The more accurate (and frankly more neutral) terms to use here are "medical choices for the incapacitated" or "health care proxy". patsw 20:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
The use of "sic" to describe a spelling transcription error in oral testimony is not appropriate, both in a legal and a journalistic sense. The testimony did not include the misspelling, and, as such, "thus" is not an appropriate term to describe it. Hipocrite 19:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC) (late sig)
I agree with Hipocrite. Michael Schiavo did not misspell his wife's name in the oral testimony. So, if we're quoting Michael's spoken words, and just acknowledging the transcript as the source of information, we should say, "Michael said . . . Terri". If we're quoting the court transcript, we should say, "According to the court transcript, Michael said . . . Terry [sic.]" The article, as it currently stands, is quoting Michael ("Michael explained", rather than, "According to the court transcript, Michael explained".) Ann Heneghan (talk) 22:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Hipocrite: The reason I couldn't initially find the quotes on the page was due to my searching for a phrase which had been fragmented or broken up by the mandatory line breaks; If I had searched for a smaller section of the phrase, I would have avoided that problem. I generally agree with FuelWagon that this is a minor problem, and don't see it is damaging the article; however, to be actually correct, we look at the textbook definition of "sic", and we find that it is plain and strait forward: If the source is misspelling the word, then we use it. If you want to avoid using it, you might then list the actual source as the real transcript -and either list it's online source as a link to a webpage -or, if not available online, note that it is unavailable online, and cite the second source as having quoted the first source.-- GordonWattsDotCom 14:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Definition: sic1 (sĭk) adv.
Thus; so. Used to indicate that a quoted passage, especially one containing an error or unconventional spelling, has been retained in its original form or written intentionally.
[Latin sīc.] [1]
(Please note that the actual definition does not give any exceptions, such as the one you and Ann suggest, but I think and hope both of my alternatives fit within the meaning of this grammatical rule.) As Mr. Spock might say, "That's what logic would lead us to conclude."-- GordonWattsDotCom 14:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not weighing in as of yet, but I wanted to give everybody a heads up: Neutrality has made a lot of changes without discussion or consensus recently. Most appear minor or otherwise innocuous, but one was a major rewrite of the intro. The paragraphs didn't line up, so it's hard to see what the exact changes were, and he doesn't tell us -and I wanted to make a note of it. One of the more notable changes he made was addition of this section:
The judicial and legislative battles over the removal of her feeding tube spawned considerable media coverage during the last few weeks of her life and sparked a fierce debate over bioethics, legal guardianship, federalism, and civil rights.
He ominously omits mention of euthanasia, even though this was the most preeminent issue over which debate was sparked. It smacks of POV pushing, when we take into account his similar edit in the past on this issue, but I'm merely like FOX News: I report; You decide.-- GordonWattsDotCom 18:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
FYI,
From the CHINESE Wiki, we find this quote: "夏沃丈夫坚持移除其 zh:生命支持系统的行为导致了一系列关于 zh:生物伦理学, zh:安乐死, zh:监护人制度, zh:联邦制以及 zh:民权的严重争论," which is to say:
"...persisted 移除 its life support program behavior has caused a series of about the biological ethics, the euthanasia, the guardian system, the federal system as well as the civil rights serious argument."
From the Hispanic Wiki, we find this: "Theresa Marie Schiavo ( 3 de diciembre 1963 – † 31 de marzo 2005), más conocida como Terri Schiavo era una mujer estadounidense en estado vegetativo irreversible que abrió un acalorado debate sobre temas como la eutanasia, la bioética, tutela legal, federalismo, y los derechos civiles en su país."
From http://Google.com we can find that the points from the debate were more about euthanasia than any of the other terss, or so I found at last looking:
-- GordonWattsDotCom 18:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Wagon, here above are my arguments regarding the slight modifications I made on neutrality's version; I make no specific arguments on his original version other than these two:
1) He supported it, and i do, so that is a little bit of consensus; 2) His version is superior to the version that was before, and I tweaked it to make it even better. Additionally, (#3), you may evaluate my changes here in talk at no major risk. -- GordonWattsDotCom 20:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
While I certainly don't agree with Neutrality's POV, the fact is that on Wikipedia, anyone who isn't a vandal is entitled to make changes, regardless of invisible instructions, regardless of consensus, regardless of past votes. I don't endorse Neutrality's changes, but this is a wiki, and he does not need to obtain majority approval before he edits. It may be wise and courteous to do so, but it's not a requirement. If an edit goes against general consensus, it will probably be reverted pretty soon.
If I remember correctly, Neutrality was one of the ones who kept taking out the reference to euthanasia. People may argue that this wasn't euthanasia under Florida law - although it was certainly a violation of the official teaching of Terri's religion concerning euthansia - but I don't see how they can possible argue that the case did not cause a huge debate over euthanasia, among other things.
By the way, since there are doubts over the bulimia theory, I'm wondering do we really need all that stuff about her eating habits and dieting in the "Early Life" section? How reliable is the Miami Herald? (I read the article a few months ago, but you have to register now.) A few interviews with friends? (I can think of a few interviews with friends that would meet with strong opposition if a Schindler supporter tried to insert them!) Can we make the article shorter, not longer? Ann Heneghan (talk) 22:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I made said changes; The accuracy of the changes is not a problem, nor is the POV, Wagon. If you want to make an argument against me, your best bet is to take a two-fold approach here:
* 1 - Argue for length, as in "it's too long for an intro."
* 2 - Get additional concensus for your version.
* BONUS 3 - Read the recent diff HERE from the page history -to see the exact changes, and read the page to see "how it flows." Read, listen, look, think, twelve times before acting or editing once.-- GordonWattsDotCom 19:08, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't have to do anything. You're attempts to insert "euthanasia" are transparent POV pushing. People have objected to that word since I started working on this article. It's POV, which makes it against policy. The entire laundry list of subjective descriptors are problematic. And the solution that worked was to delet all of them. Rather than have a list with euthenasia, and have people complain, there is NO list, and pretty much everyone went along with that. Except you, Gordon. "euthenasia" is completely POV, and it doesn't belong. FuelWagon 20:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for demonstrating the very reason why I oppose this laundry list of subjective and highly partisan terms. This has nothing to do with reporting facts and has everything to do with people wanting to insert their righteous anger and accusations of witchcraft into the article. I call Terri's death a tragedy that resulted from her heart attack 15 years ago. And I call the decision to withdraw life support to have been true to her desire not to be hooked up on a machine in a persistent vegatative state. FuelWagon 21:25, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
" Bioethics" is a term that includes " euthanasia." Neutrality talk 21:34, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
The "diagnosis dispute" section mentions 33 affidavits. I just found a decent link here that explains that these 33 affidavits include Iyer and Hammersfar over the course of a couple of years. Some of these 33 affidavits are already covered in other sections of the article. In other words, 33 misrepresents the number of affidavits that disputed the diagnosis, because it reads as if they were additional affidavits, when then were actually part of some of the already mentioned affidavits. Apparently 17 of the affidavits were submitted Mar 5, just before Terri died according to this. I want to move these 28 into chronological order, and I would like a link to the court's response. Anyone got anything? FuelWagon 21:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I've got one bit left over from the "Michael Schiavo" section.
I don't think this is important enough to put in its own subsection. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where it could go? Or just leave it out? FuelWagon 00:42, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I think I've got all the chunks, bits, and subsections that were floating around with odd bits of information and have managed to put the entire article into mostly chronological order. No doubt it is not perfect, but I think it qualifies as an improvement over what it was before. FuelWagon 00:56, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
How is the word "euthanasia" POV pushing? Especially in reference to the debate that was fueled by the Terri Schiavo case...how is it pushing POV by using the word? The "case" on Terri Schiavo may not have been 'euthanasia-specific', but many of the "debates" that were fueled by it were very definitely 'euthanasia-specific', so how is it pushing POV in that instance? The argument makes no sense. The word "euthanasia" should be used when talking about the debates. Lord I give up on this article. Stanselmdoc 21:16, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon...it...it almost hurts to respond to you. How often do you hear the term "euthanasia" on the news? Eh, frequently enough I suppose. People use it in regular conversations every now and then. It's in medical dictionaries and such. But um...last time I checked, didn't hear the word "nigger" on tv anywhere. Nor in any newspaper, regular conversations, or in any sort of medical dictionary. I can't believe you're trying to compare a medical term to what most people consider a foul word and don't use it. Next you're going to tell me that the very word "abortion" is "inherently POV", along with "coma" and "paralyzed". Your very argument is flawed. What you said wasn't even "uncivil" as patsw says; it was just dumb. It makes no sense. You attempted to assert that "euthenasia" is a subset of "bioethics" like "golfer" is a subset of "athlete" with your Tiger Woods analogy. What do you mean he attempted? He drew a much better analogy than you did. Golfer IS a subset of Athlete. Euthanasia IS a subset of general Bioethics. It's right there next to mercy killing, right-to-die issues, etc.
"Polls show that the majority of americans don't think this was euthanasia" - First, what polls are you speaking of? Where's the research? And second, it doesn't matter anyway, because wiki isn't supposed to be about presenting the "popular" or the "majority" idea. It's supposed to present the facts, like an encyclopedia. AND YOU JUST PROVED OUR ARGUMENT. Someone had to have asked these people if they felt Terri Schiavo’s death was euthanasia, and they clearly answered yay or nay = there was a debate over it! If there’s a poll on it, clearly people were discussing it! Hence, clearly it should be mentioned that people were debating euthanasia as a result of Terri.
And once again, this isn't about whether to say Terri was "euthanized" or not. This is about whether her death sparked discussions on euthanasia. IT DID! It was all over the news. I agree with you, FuelWagon, if you want to display all sides of the argument blah blah blah and make the article much longer than it should be, whatever, let's do it. But the FACT is, it would be much simpler to say that her death sparked hot debates from all sides of the euthanasia debate, including exactly how to define euthanasia. Geez, I can't even believe I took the time to write this. This is like arguing whether or not the word "abortion" should be used in the article on Roe v. Wade. Stanselmdoc 17:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
So what you're saying is your argument has changed? Before, you were saying that "euthanasia" shouldn't be mentioned in the article, now it seems that you would be willing to put it in, as long as it's in a neutral tone. Is that correct? If so, would you mind if it was worded like "Terri's case generated huge debate over bioethics, guardianship, judicial homicide, and the definition of euthanasia." OR "Terri's case generated huge debate over bioethics, guardianship, and judicial homicide. In some instances, many people argued Terri's death was an act of euthanasia." OR something else like that? I think it sounds reasonable enough to state that there were discussions on euthanasia after her death, even if her death wasn't ruled as euthanasia.
And the term "euthanasia" is not POV. What would you prefer to have? "Mercy killing"? "Right-to-Die"? I don't think "bioethics" is good enough, because it's so broad. And I'm glad you compared "euthanasia" to "murdering the unborn", but you skipped from NPOV to POV. "Murdering the unborn" is obviously POV (even though it's true, so it makes no sense), but you should have compared it to "abortion". Again, your analogy makes no sense. It would either have to be: "euthanasia" is to "abortion" OR it would have to be: "murdering the handicapped" is to "murdering the unborn". But this doesn't matter anyway because you're still avoiding the point. The question is: was the term "euthanasia" used in the debates sparked by Terri's case? And the answer is YES. So it should be mentioned just as it is, and regardless of whether you think it's POV, or regardless of whether you want to hide the truth of the instance behind pretty words, it shouldn't be sugar-coated if that's what they were talking about. If the Roe v. Wade article said the case sparked debate over "murdering the unborn", I would change it to the medical term "abortion". Just like if this article said the case sparked debate over "murdering the handicapped", I would change it to the medical term "euthanasia". Not the social term "mercy killing" just because some people don't want to think about what euthanasia really means. Stanselmdoc 18:50, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
This whole thing is about semantics, Fox1! I didn't start this argument, I came in in the middle, so I don't see how your accusation of me using semantics to argue semantics means anything. It would only prove 1. that the argument over the word "euthanasia" is dumb and 2. that the people arguing it are dumb. Well.....yes. This is a dumb argument and frankly we're all dumb for continuing the argument. And this whole article is dumb as well for that matter. TERRI IS DEAD. And we're arguing over a crappy wiki article. A woman died, has been dead for some time, and we don't have the respect to lay off of the petty details of her article. That's so sad. And I'm including myself in that. But I'd at least like to defend her any chance I can, since she got no defense on this earth.
And I wasn't arguing against the word "bioethics" at all. I was arguing FOR the word "euthanasia". Don't confuse the two. What I specifically said was I don't think "bioethics" is good enough, because it's so broad. If we have a consensus to use the word "bioethics", that's fine. I was just giving my opinion, because (God forbid) I prefer being specific rather than broad. But I don't have any particular hatred of the word "bioethics" being used. Except that FuelWagon himself got mad when patsw tried to place euthanasia under bioethics. So by his own reasoning, bioethics isn't a sufficient word to use, since it doesn't cover euthanasia. I'm just trying to cover to euthanasia. And the point I was trying to make (which obviously didn't work, since you misunderstood) wasn't about the different words used in the debates. It was about the subjects of the debates. One of the subjects was euthanasia. Another one was bioethics. So I don't see the point in removing the word "euthanasia" just because someone thinks the word is inherently POV. We may as well remove the judicial homicide because "judicial homicide" is a POV term against judges and lawyers. That's the kind of reasoning I'm seeing. And I think it's bogus reasoning. And don't tell me I'm arguing for arguing's sake. That's an attempt at trying to get me to let it go and just let FuelWagon have his PC way. But you know what, I may just do that anyway. Terri's memory is already too caught up in legal crap for anyone to realize anymore that she was actually a human person who died of dehydration as a result of her feeding tube being removed (euthanasia), and not as a result of her collapse years before. Where has our common sense gone? Out the PC window. God bless, Stanselmdoc 19:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh and thanks for completely ignoring my very honest and pointed question, FuelWagon, when I asked if you would consider something like "Terri's case generated huge debate over bioethics, guardianship, judicial homicide, and the definition of euthanasia." OR "Terri's case generated huge debate over bioethics, guardianship, and judicial homicide. In some instances, many people argued Terri's death was an act of euthanasia." I was actually trying to find a way to write something to represent what you were saying. But since it's all or nothing for you, I'll just forget about compromise. God bless, Stanselmdoc 19:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
...until Gordon got obsessed with "euthanasia"... Maybe I was a little "obsessed" over accuracy and consistency, by using what had been a good solution for ALL THREE wikis (English, Chinese, Hispanic) until recently --however it was NEUTRALITY, not myself, that reintroduced the "laundry list." I merely "cleaned up" the incomplete list.-- GordonWattsDotCom 22:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
How about a small sentence saying that "In addition to the massive legal debates, the Schiavo case fueled many human rights debates before and after her death." or something. I think (in the interest of keeping the already really long article as short as possible) that a small mention is enough, without needing any defense per side. Stanselmdoc 20:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
There are several disputes, and I fear that we are getting them confused:
First, not in dispute, but worth mentioning, Wagon, when I left a note on SlimVirgin's page, asking for her to weigh in and vote (as an editor, not as an admin), I made a point that you had made many positive edit contributions. Hold on a sec, and let me get that diff: Here it is, "Revision as of 19:48, 9 August 2005" on SlimV's page.
CONCLUSION: It looks like My version has enough more than enough votes, but I haven't checked the page to see if it was allowed to stand. If it is, FuelWagon, you can relax, because the "laundry list," as you call it, was accepted by the Hispanic AND Chinese wikis, and your only objection (and a weak argument, I think) would be that it is too long: It pushes no point of view and merely states facts: The controversy sparked debate. Period. -- GordonWattsDotCom 01:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I think arbcom reports should be reserved for more serious matters. Yes, I disagree with Neutrality, but removing euthanasia from an article is something that any Wikipedian has the power to do; it doesn't require admin powers so it can't be an abuse of admin powers. I think invisible instructions of the "do not change this" nature should be used very sparingly, mainly in cases where new editors frequently arrive and insert or remove something without knowing that has been discussed thoroughly on the talk page. As SlimVirgin said some time ago, you can't insert invisible instructions and expect future editors to obey them on Wikipedia. I think they shouldn't be used for something where there is a current disagreement and where the only people likely to make a change are people who are already engaged in the discussion on the talk page. So, I don't think Neutrality should have inserted <!--Bioethics is a general term that includes many of the issues involved in the case including euthanasia. Do not remove, replace, or add the term "euthanasia"--> [2], but any ordinary contributor can insert invisible comments - I've done so in the past - so it has nothing to do with use or abuse of admin status. Also, I don't think a vote can be closed so quickly. And, to quote SlimVirgin again, past votes have no effect on future editors - this is a wiki. Can we keep up the discussion? Ann Heneghan (talk) 07:01, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
FW made a revert here of my edit; and my edit was effectively a revert (or "revision") of Neutrality's edit.-- GordonWattsDotCom 22:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
If my argument really has merit, another editor will probably replace the offensive deletion. If that doesn't happen, then our arguments weren't meritous enough.
I won't "revert" per se, because that would not be the "wiki" thing to do, but I may attempt a compromise as Stan and Wagon were discussing below -even though this would increase the word length and is not favored.-- GordonWattsDotCom 22:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Wagon speaks: "revert Gordon. There was no "compromise". the matter is still in discussion on talk. and "some" and "others" often qualifies as weasel words. Anything to say "euthanasia", eh Gordon?" Now, don't put words into my mouth: I didn't say "Euthanasia." I said that is sparked debate, and even bent to your requests to provide other views -and links.
You'll do anything to suppress accurate and complete reporting of the facts, won't you? Part of the story is all you want to get out. You didn't lie; you merely selectively reported the truth, but incomplete is inherently POV, so, you suggest a solution that would include the FACTS and TRUTH about the "debate on euthanasia." (Be glad I'm not a weirdo, or I'd insist on language that included "murder" and "starvation," which, by the way, are factually true and correct, but probably a bit POV.) Wagon disputes acceptance of compromise; However, what would HE propose to report the truth and the WHOLE truth? Scratch that; He answered me as I was typing...--
GordonWattsDotCom
23:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"Do you have a quote from..." OK, when I was typing this, I had not seen your recent edit, and had an edit conflict. I may be able to scare up something concrete -and, yes, I'll try to get "both" sides of the story from "reputable main player" and with links/sources. Was hoping y'all would, but let's see what can be done...-- GordonWattsDotCom 23:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Since Gordon insist that the intro somehow (any way possible) include the word euthanasia, he introduced it by quoting the Vatican and the Schindlers' support of their statement. He then listed Michael's POV that this was Terri's wishes and links to the neutral source of "fox news" for a source.
Since he left out several other POV's, in an effort to bring the article back into NPOV, I added mention Greer's opinion from the 2000 trial that determined that yes, in fact, this WAS Terri's wishes, the guardian ad litem's position that this was well within florida statutes and that that evidence was sound, and the 2005 ruling that clarifies that no, really, after serveral dozen legal rulings, this really, really, is Terri's wishes, and really really satisfies any requirement for due process.
Yes, the intro has exploded. But if you want to show all the POV's around whether this qualifies as active euthanasia (an illegal act in the US) or whether it qualifies as following a patient's wishes not to be kept on a machine within the law and determined by due process, this is what it looks like. FuelWagon 01:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I listed the article for peer review. It looks good to me, but not everyone's happy. I thought maybe some fresh eyes might help the article. I just hope it doesn't spawn an edit war. FuelWagon 23:35, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Yo homies. I moved the TOC on the article up a bit, as it looked like ass on an 800x600 screen alongside the Schiavo template. If you don't like that and want it back where it was, move it, don't blind revert (as I also threw in a few typo fixes), and move the Schiavo template instead. They shouldn't be alongside one another. Proto t c 23:12, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It was debated earlier but seems to have returned: inaccurate terminology with respect to "end of life". Usage of this term presumes that in some sense Terri was at "end of life" in 1990 or prior to 2005. The more accurate (and frankly more neutral) terms to use here are "medical choices for the incapacitated" or "health care proxy". patsw 20:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
The use of "sic" to describe a spelling transcription error in oral testimony is not appropriate, both in a legal and a journalistic sense. The testimony did not include the misspelling, and, as such, "thus" is not an appropriate term to describe it. Hipocrite 19:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC) (late sig)
I agree with Hipocrite. Michael Schiavo did not misspell his wife's name in the oral testimony. So, if we're quoting Michael's spoken words, and just acknowledging the transcript as the source of information, we should say, "Michael said . . . Terri". If we're quoting the court transcript, we should say, "According to the court transcript, Michael said . . . Terry [sic.]" The article, as it currently stands, is quoting Michael ("Michael explained", rather than, "According to the court transcript, Michael explained".) Ann Heneghan (talk) 22:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Hipocrite: The reason I couldn't initially find the quotes on the page was due to my searching for a phrase which had been fragmented or broken up by the mandatory line breaks; If I had searched for a smaller section of the phrase, I would have avoided that problem. I generally agree with FuelWagon that this is a minor problem, and don't see it is damaging the article; however, to be actually correct, we look at the textbook definition of "sic", and we find that it is plain and strait forward: If the source is misspelling the word, then we use it. If you want to avoid using it, you might then list the actual source as the real transcript -and either list it's online source as a link to a webpage -or, if not available online, note that it is unavailable online, and cite the second source as having quoted the first source.-- GordonWattsDotCom 14:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Definition: sic1 (sĭk) adv.
Thus; so. Used to indicate that a quoted passage, especially one containing an error or unconventional spelling, has been retained in its original form or written intentionally.
[Latin sīc.] [1]
(Please note that the actual definition does not give any exceptions, such as the one you and Ann suggest, but I think and hope both of my alternatives fit within the meaning of this grammatical rule.) As Mr. Spock might say, "That's what logic would lead us to conclude."-- GordonWattsDotCom 14:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not weighing in as of yet, but I wanted to give everybody a heads up: Neutrality has made a lot of changes without discussion or consensus recently. Most appear minor or otherwise innocuous, but one was a major rewrite of the intro. The paragraphs didn't line up, so it's hard to see what the exact changes were, and he doesn't tell us -and I wanted to make a note of it. One of the more notable changes he made was addition of this section:
The judicial and legislative battles over the removal of her feeding tube spawned considerable media coverage during the last few weeks of her life and sparked a fierce debate over bioethics, legal guardianship, federalism, and civil rights.
He ominously omits mention of euthanasia, even though this was the most preeminent issue over which debate was sparked. It smacks of POV pushing, when we take into account his similar edit in the past on this issue, but I'm merely like FOX News: I report; You decide.-- GordonWattsDotCom 18:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
FYI,
From the CHINESE Wiki, we find this quote: "夏沃丈夫坚持移除其 zh:生命支持系统的行为导致了一系列关于 zh:生物伦理学, zh:安乐死, zh:监护人制度, zh:联邦制以及 zh:民权的严重争论," which is to say:
"...persisted 移除 its life support program behavior has caused a series of about the biological ethics, the euthanasia, the guardian system, the federal system as well as the civil rights serious argument."
From the Hispanic Wiki, we find this: "Theresa Marie Schiavo ( 3 de diciembre 1963 – † 31 de marzo 2005), más conocida como Terri Schiavo era una mujer estadounidense en estado vegetativo irreversible que abrió un acalorado debate sobre temas como la eutanasia, la bioética, tutela legal, federalismo, y los derechos civiles en su país."
From http://Google.com we can find that the points from the debate were more about euthanasia than any of the other terss, or so I found at last looking:
-- GordonWattsDotCom 18:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Wagon, here above are my arguments regarding the slight modifications I made on neutrality's version; I make no specific arguments on his original version other than these two:
1) He supported it, and i do, so that is a little bit of consensus; 2) His version is superior to the version that was before, and I tweaked it to make it even better. Additionally, (#3), you may evaluate my changes here in talk at no major risk. -- GordonWattsDotCom 20:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
While I certainly don't agree with Neutrality's POV, the fact is that on Wikipedia, anyone who isn't a vandal is entitled to make changes, regardless of invisible instructions, regardless of consensus, regardless of past votes. I don't endorse Neutrality's changes, but this is a wiki, and he does not need to obtain majority approval before he edits. It may be wise and courteous to do so, but it's not a requirement. If an edit goes against general consensus, it will probably be reverted pretty soon.
If I remember correctly, Neutrality was one of the ones who kept taking out the reference to euthanasia. People may argue that this wasn't euthanasia under Florida law - although it was certainly a violation of the official teaching of Terri's religion concerning euthansia - but I don't see how they can possible argue that the case did not cause a huge debate over euthanasia, among other things.
By the way, since there are doubts over the bulimia theory, I'm wondering do we really need all that stuff about her eating habits and dieting in the "Early Life" section? How reliable is the Miami Herald? (I read the article a few months ago, but you have to register now.) A few interviews with friends? (I can think of a few interviews with friends that would meet with strong opposition if a Schindler supporter tried to insert them!) Can we make the article shorter, not longer? Ann Heneghan (talk) 22:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I made said changes; The accuracy of the changes is not a problem, nor is the POV, Wagon. If you want to make an argument against me, your best bet is to take a two-fold approach here:
* 1 - Argue for length, as in "it's too long for an intro."
* 2 - Get additional concensus for your version.
* BONUS 3 - Read the recent diff HERE from the page history -to see the exact changes, and read the page to see "how it flows." Read, listen, look, think, twelve times before acting or editing once.-- GordonWattsDotCom 19:08, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't have to do anything. You're attempts to insert "euthanasia" are transparent POV pushing. People have objected to that word since I started working on this article. It's POV, which makes it against policy. The entire laundry list of subjective descriptors are problematic. And the solution that worked was to delet all of them. Rather than have a list with euthenasia, and have people complain, there is NO list, and pretty much everyone went along with that. Except you, Gordon. "euthenasia" is completely POV, and it doesn't belong. FuelWagon 20:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for demonstrating the very reason why I oppose this laundry list of subjective and highly partisan terms. This has nothing to do with reporting facts and has everything to do with people wanting to insert their righteous anger and accusations of witchcraft into the article. I call Terri's death a tragedy that resulted from her heart attack 15 years ago. And I call the decision to withdraw life support to have been true to her desire not to be hooked up on a machine in a persistent vegatative state. FuelWagon 21:25, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
" Bioethics" is a term that includes " euthanasia." Neutrality talk 21:34, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
The "diagnosis dispute" section mentions 33 affidavits. I just found a decent link here that explains that these 33 affidavits include Iyer and Hammersfar over the course of a couple of years. Some of these 33 affidavits are already covered in other sections of the article. In other words, 33 misrepresents the number of affidavits that disputed the diagnosis, because it reads as if they were additional affidavits, when then were actually part of some of the already mentioned affidavits. Apparently 17 of the affidavits were submitted Mar 5, just before Terri died according to this. I want to move these 28 into chronological order, and I would like a link to the court's response. Anyone got anything? FuelWagon 21:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I've got one bit left over from the "Michael Schiavo" section.
I don't think this is important enough to put in its own subsection. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where it could go? Or just leave it out? FuelWagon 00:42, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I think I've got all the chunks, bits, and subsections that were floating around with odd bits of information and have managed to put the entire article into mostly chronological order. No doubt it is not perfect, but I think it qualifies as an improvement over what it was before. FuelWagon 00:56, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
How is the word "euthanasia" POV pushing? Especially in reference to the debate that was fueled by the Terri Schiavo case...how is it pushing POV by using the word? The "case" on Terri Schiavo may not have been 'euthanasia-specific', but many of the "debates" that were fueled by it were very definitely 'euthanasia-specific', so how is it pushing POV in that instance? The argument makes no sense. The word "euthanasia" should be used when talking about the debates. Lord I give up on this article. Stanselmdoc 21:16, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon...it...it almost hurts to respond to you. How often do you hear the term "euthanasia" on the news? Eh, frequently enough I suppose. People use it in regular conversations every now and then. It's in medical dictionaries and such. But um...last time I checked, didn't hear the word "nigger" on tv anywhere. Nor in any newspaper, regular conversations, or in any sort of medical dictionary. I can't believe you're trying to compare a medical term to what most people consider a foul word and don't use it. Next you're going to tell me that the very word "abortion" is "inherently POV", along with "coma" and "paralyzed". Your very argument is flawed. What you said wasn't even "uncivil" as patsw says; it was just dumb. It makes no sense. You attempted to assert that "euthenasia" is a subset of "bioethics" like "golfer" is a subset of "athlete" with your Tiger Woods analogy. What do you mean he attempted? He drew a much better analogy than you did. Golfer IS a subset of Athlete. Euthanasia IS a subset of general Bioethics. It's right there next to mercy killing, right-to-die issues, etc.
"Polls show that the majority of americans don't think this was euthanasia" - First, what polls are you speaking of? Where's the research? And second, it doesn't matter anyway, because wiki isn't supposed to be about presenting the "popular" or the "majority" idea. It's supposed to present the facts, like an encyclopedia. AND YOU JUST PROVED OUR ARGUMENT. Someone had to have asked these people if they felt Terri Schiavo’s death was euthanasia, and they clearly answered yay or nay = there was a debate over it! If there’s a poll on it, clearly people were discussing it! Hence, clearly it should be mentioned that people were debating euthanasia as a result of Terri.
And once again, this isn't about whether to say Terri was "euthanized" or not. This is about whether her death sparked discussions on euthanasia. IT DID! It was all over the news. I agree with you, FuelWagon, if you want to display all sides of the argument blah blah blah and make the article much longer than it should be, whatever, let's do it. But the FACT is, it would be much simpler to say that her death sparked hot debates from all sides of the euthanasia debate, including exactly how to define euthanasia. Geez, I can't even believe I took the time to write this. This is like arguing whether or not the word "abortion" should be used in the article on Roe v. Wade. Stanselmdoc 17:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
So what you're saying is your argument has changed? Before, you were saying that "euthanasia" shouldn't be mentioned in the article, now it seems that you would be willing to put it in, as long as it's in a neutral tone. Is that correct? If so, would you mind if it was worded like "Terri's case generated huge debate over bioethics, guardianship, judicial homicide, and the definition of euthanasia." OR "Terri's case generated huge debate over bioethics, guardianship, and judicial homicide. In some instances, many people argued Terri's death was an act of euthanasia." OR something else like that? I think it sounds reasonable enough to state that there were discussions on euthanasia after her death, even if her death wasn't ruled as euthanasia.
And the term "euthanasia" is not POV. What would you prefer to have? "Mercy killing"? "Right-to-Die"? I don't think "bioethics" is good enough, because it's so broad. And I'm glad you compared "euthanasia" to "murdering the unborn", but you skipped from NPOV to POV. "Murdering the unborn" is obviously POV (even though it's true, so it makes no sense), but you should have compared it to "abortion". Again, your analogy makes no sense. It would either have to be: "euthanasia" is to "abortion" OR it would have to be: "murdering the handicapped" is to "murdering the unborn". But this doesn't matter anyway because you're still avoiding the point. The question is: was the term "euthanasia" used in the debates sparked by Terri's case? And the answer is YES. So it should be mentioned just as it is, and regardless of whether you think it's POV, or regardless of whether you want to hide the truth of the instance behind pretty words, it shouldn't be sugar-coated if that's what they were talking about. If the Roe v. Wade article said the case sparked debate over "murdering the unborn", I would change it to the medical term "abortion". Just like if this article said the case sparked debate over "murdering the handicapped", I would change it to the medical term "euthanasia". Not the social term "mercy killing" just because some people don't want to think about what euthanasia really means. Stanselmdoc 18:50, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
This whole thing is about semantics, Fox1! I didn't start this argument, I came in in the middle, so I don't see how your accusation of me using semantics to argue semantics means anything. It would only prove 1. that the argument over the word "euthanasia" is dumb and 2. that the people arguing it are dumb. Well.....yes. This is a dumb argument and frankly we're all dumb for continuing the argument. And this whole article is dumb as well for that matter. TERRI IS DEAD. And we're arguing over a crappy wiki article. A woman died, has been dead for some time, and we don't have the respect to lay off of the petty details of her article. That's so sad. And I'm including myself in that. But I'd at least like to defend her any chance I can, since she got no defense on this earth.
And I wasn't arguing against the word "bioethics" at all. I was arguing FOR the word "euthanasia". Don't confuse the two. What I specifically said was I don't think "bioethics" is good enough, because it's so broad. If we have a consensus to use the word "bioethics", that's fine. I was just giving my opinion, because (God forbid) I prefer being specific rather than broad. But I don't have any particular hatred of the word "bioethics" being used. Except that FuelWagon himself got mad when patsw tried to place euthanasia under bioethics. So by his own reasoning, bioethics isn't a sufficient word to use, since it doesn't cover euthanasia. I'm just trying to cover to euthanasia. And the point I was trying to make (which obviously didn't work, since you misunderstood) wasn't about the different words used in the debates. It was about the subjects of the debates. One of the subjects was euthanasia. Another one was bioethics. So I don't see the point in removing the word "euthanasia" just because someone thinks the word is inherently POV. We may as well remove the judicial homicide because "judicial homicide" is a POV term against judges and lawyers. That's the kind of reasoning I'm seeing. And I think it's bogus reasoning. And don't tell me I'm arguing for arguing's sake. That's an attempt at trying to get me to let it go and just let FuelWagon have his PC way. But you know what, I may just do that anyway. Terri's memory is already too caught up in legal crap for anyone to realize anymore that she was actually a human person who died of dehydration as a result of her feeding tube being removed (euthanasia), and not as a result of her collapse years before. Where has our common sense gone? Out the PC window. God bless, Stanselmdoc 19:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh and thanks for completely ignoring my very honest and pointed question, FuelWagon, when I asked if you would consider something like "Terri's case generated huge debate over bioethics, guardianship, judicial homicide, and the definition of euthanasia." OR "Terri's case generated huge debate over bioethics, guardianship, and judicial homicide. In some instances, many people argued Terri's death was an act of euthanasia." I was actually trying to find a way to write something to represent what you were saying. But since it's all or nothing for you, I'll just forget about compromise. God bless, Stanselmdoc 19:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
...until Gordon got obsessed with "euthanasia"... Maybe I was a little "obsessed" over accuracy and consistency, by using what had been a good solution for ALL THREE wikis (English, Chinese, Hispanic) until recently --however it was NEUTRALITY, not myself, that reintroduced the "laundry list." I merely "cleaned up" the incomplete list.-- GordonWattsDotCom 22:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
How about a small sentence saying that "In addition to the massive legal debates, the Schiavo case fueled many human rights debates before and after her death." or something. I think (in the interest of keeping the already really long article as short as possible) that a small mention is enough, without needing any defense per side. Stanselmdoc 20:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
There are several disputes, and I fear that we are getting them confused:
First, not in dispute, but worth mentioning, Wagon, when I left a note on SlimVirgin's page, asking for her to weigh in and vote (as an editor, not as an admin), I made a point that you had made many positive edit contributions. Hold on a sec, and let me get that diff: Here it is, "Revision as of 19:48, 9 August 2005" on SlimV's page.
CONCLUSION: It looks like My version has enough more than enough votes, but I haven't checked the page to see if it was allowed to stand. If it is, FuelWagon, you can relax, because the "laundry list," as you call it, was accepted by the Hispanic AND Chinese wikis, and your only objection (and a weak argument, I think) would be that it is too long: It pushes no point of view and merely states facts: The controversy sparked debate. Period. -- GordonWattsDotCom 01:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I think arbcom reports should be reserved for more serious matters. Yes, I disagree with Neutrality, but removing euthanasia from an article is something that any Wikipedian has the power to do; it doesn't require admin powers so it can't be an abuse of admin powers. I think invisible instructions of the "do not change this" nature should be used very sparingly, mainly in cases where new editors frequently arrive and insert or remove something without knowing that has been discussed thoroughly on the talk page. As SlimVirgin said some time ago, you can't insert invisible instructions and expect future editors to obey them on Wikipedia. I think they shouldn't be used for something where there is a current disagreement and where the only people likely to make a change are people who are already engaged in the discussion on the talk page. So, I don't think Neutrality should have inserted <!--Bioethics is a general term that includes many of the issues involved in the case including euthanasia. Do not remove, replace, or add the term "euthanasia"--> [2], but any ordinary contributor can insert invisible comments - I've done so in the past - so it has nothing to do with use or abuse of admin status. Also, I don't think a vote can be closed so quickly. And, to quote SlimVirgin again, past votes have no effect on future editors - this is a wiki. Can we keep up the discussion? Ann Heneghan (talk) 07:01, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
FW made a revert here of my edit; and my edit was effectively a revert (or "revision") of Neutrality's edit.-- GordonWattsDotCom 22:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
If my argument really has merit, another editor will probably replace the offensive deletion. If that doesn't happen, then our arguments weren't meritous enough.
I won't "revert" per se, because that would not be the "wiki" thing to do, but I may attempt a compromise as Stan and Wagon were discussing below -even though this would increase the word length and is not favored.-- GordonWattsDotCom 22:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Wagon speaks: "revert Gordon. There was no "compromise". the matter is still in discussion on talk. and "some" and "others" often qualifies as weasel words. Anything to say "euthanasia", eh Gordon?" Now, don't put words into my mouth: I didn't say "Euthanasia." I said that is sparked debate, and even bent to your requests to provide other views -and links.
You'll do anything to suppress accurate and complete reporting of the facts, won't you? Part of the story is all you want to get out. You didn't lie; you merely selectively reported the truth, but incomplete is inherently POV, so, you suggest a solution that would include the FACTS and TRUTH about the "debate on euthanasia." (Be glad I'm not a weirdo, or I'd insist on language that included "murder" and "starvation," which, by the way, are factually true and correct, but probably a bit POV.) Wagon disputes acceptance of compromise; However, what would HE propose to report the truth and the WHOLE truth? Scratch that; He answered me as I was typing...--
GordonWattsDotCom
23:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"Do you have a quote from..." OK, when I was typing this, I had not seen your recent edit, and had an edit conflict. I may be able to scare up something concrete -and, yes, I'll try to get "both" sides of the story from "reputable main player" and with links/sources. Was hoping y'all would, but let's see what can be done...-- GordonWattsDotCom 23:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Since Gordon insist that the intro somehow (any way possible) include the word euthanasia, he introduced it by quoting the Vatican and the Schindlers' support of their statement. He then listed Michael's POV that this was Terri's wishes and links to the neutral source of "fox news" for a source.
Since he left out several other POV's, in an effort to bring the article back into NPOV, I added mention Greer's opinion from the 2000 trial that determined that yes, in fact, this WAS Terri's wishes, the guardian ad litem's position that this was well within florida statutes and that that evidence was sound, and the 2005 ruling that clarifies that no, really, after serveral dozen legal rulings, this really, really, is Terri's wishes, and really really satisfies any requirement for due process.
Yes, the intro has exploded. But if you want to show all the POV's around whether this qualifies as active euthanasia (an illegal act in the US) or whether it qualifies as following a patient's wishes not to be kept on a machine within the law and determined by due process, this is what it looks like. FuelWagon 01:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I listed the article for peer review. It looks good to me, but not everyone's happy. I thought maybe some fresh eyes might help the article. I just hope it doesn't spawn an edit war. FuelWagon 23:35, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Yo homies. I moved the TOC on the article up a bit, as it looked like ass on an 800x600 screen alongside the Schiavo template. If you don't like that and want it back where it was, move it, don't blind revert (as I also threw in a few typo fixes), and move the Schiavo template instead. They shouldn't be alongside one another. Proto t c 23:12, 12 August 2005 (UTC)