This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The original valentines day argument is presented in pretty much from Mary Schindler's point of view. I removed it and placed it here, for review:
I replaced it with excerpts from the wolfson and pearse reports which are a bit more neutral. I also moved it to the section "family relationship" so it isn't specific to the Schindlers any more. I'd like to trim down some of the stuff that is in the Michael section but should be in the "relationship" section.
Complaints about the cut, move, and rewrite? FuelWagon 23:59, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article is getting seriously lengthy. I propose turning it into a private/public split as was earlier proposed by another user who's name eludes me. Essentialy one could make an article about the Public involvement in the Terri Schiavo case with sections 7, 8, 9, 9.1, 9.2, 9.2.1, 9.2.2, 9.2.3, 9.3, 9.4, 9.5 & 9.6. This would be an intelligent fork in the article as the rest of the sections deal with the private aspects of the Schiavo case. It would at least help in reducing it in size. Any comments? Professor Ninja 00:23, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I checked the diffs. I reverted your edit along with the vandalism. Which was not my intention, as there was nothing wrong with your edits. I apologize. Professor Ninja 23:08, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. Ann Heneghan 23:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've been watching this war (and responding a time or two myself) for some time. I believe I was the first to make the observation that NCDave was merely a troll, and recent events have completely erased any doubt in my mind. On usenet and other fora we have found the most effective method for dealing with persons of that ilk are the age old practice of shunning. Do not respond to him. Do not acknowledge him. Do not rise to your own defense when he attacks, misquotes, or otherwise abuses you or the article or the process. All we need to do is watch for his stealth oh-dark-hundred vandalisms and revert as quickly as possible. He is clearly starved for attention and is not worthy of one nanosecond of anyone's time. LRod 216.76.216.65 23:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Judge Greer denies a motion to provide food and water to Terri by "natural means" here: http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/030805orderdenyfood.pdf
Unfortunately, it references another motion, which I don't have a URL for.
The order to deny food and water by natural means: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder030805.pdf StuartGathman 14:49, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone added it to the intro saying Greer prohibited foor and water by natural means. I tweaked it to say he denied a motion for food and water by natural means. but I would like to add the explanation. Unfortunately, Greer references some other motion which I don't have a URL for and he also says "Both require an experimental procedure". Does anyone have plain language explanation of why the motion was denied? It sounds like it is a duplicate of another motion, and the otehr motion was denied for some reason. FuelWagon 07:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone explain the legalease going on in this motion being rejected? Greer references some other document or some other motion or something, and I don't know how to trace back to the original from his cryptographic text. I want to know what legal basis was to reject the motion, leaving it as "just rejected" leaves too many interpretations open. need more facts. FuelWagon 23:47, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My best guess, which is at least somewhere to start, is that this is the earlier motion that the later denial of motion refers to: document here
The denial order (the one dated March 8) mentions that the content of the motion is part and parcel of the previous "motion on medical evaluations." I believe the court is talking about the motion where the Schindlers asked for new tests. That motion was itself denied on March 9: document here That would be consistent with the language in the March 8 denial, as it refers to the previous motion as if it had not yet been ruled on.-- Minaflorida 20:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
from Tropix, via my user talk page:
Here is my concern: The second motion does not contain any reference to experimental procedures. Maybe something was attached to the motion, I don't know, but the body of the motion is only about feeding by mouth, no tests. I suggest you might delete the statement "It contained the same requests for fMRI scans, the same request for VitalStim swallowing therapy, and the same affadavits." if that statement is wrong. I agree that the judge in his denial order refers to both motions as requesting experimental procedures, but this appears to be an error on his part. Perhaps the first one did, but not the second.
You may wish also wish to read the 2000 order, page 10, where Judge Greer orders the discontinuance of Micheal's artificial life support. I assume that even a judge can make minor errors from time to time.
Tropix 05:07, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
I noted your change this morning, and thank you for removing that sentence. Since you added the judge's wording (in which he apparently spoke in error) it would neutralize the remaining inaccuracy to add a comment that the second motion did not, in fact, request experimental procedures. Otherwise, the reader is given the direct but wrong impression that it did, when we know it didn't. Tropix 15:13, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FuelWagon"
Tropix, if you can find the original motions and show that one doesn't mention fMRI, then put it in. If you can show a court document from the Schindlers or something from their lawyer were they object to this comment, then link to that and put it in. But unless you have something that solid to show Greer made a provable mistake, and the Schindlers or someone else neutral didn't dispute it, then you can't just say Greer's decision is wrong, when the Shindlers never disputed it or something. if an appeal court or something looked at everything and said, "yeah, Greer should have treated these as two separate motions" then go for it. Otherwise, we're "in the minutia" as Mia-Cle said. If Greer MISPOKE but his decision to deny would still stand, what is the point, reallY? If an appeal court or something woudl say his decision was valid, then who are you trying to hang by bringing this up? If the Schindlers or their lawyer said something about Greer's wording or decision, then put that in as a direct dispute. But the opinion of some armchair lawyer on a third-party blog and a demonstrated bias should probably stay out. Do you get what I'm trying to say? I don't mind putting in any valid disputes, but I don't want this to be a way for some "Culture of Death" comment from some outside website to be snuck into the article. There is a fundamental difference. It really comes down to the source of who is disputing the decision. If the Schindlers didn't try to show Greer was wrong or had misread the motions, then why bring in some third party with a political agenda? do you get where I'm coming from? FuelWagon 16:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think we need a lawyer to go over the life-prolonging-procedures/life support/feeding tube section. There are motions and motions and rulings and rulings and a lot of explanations and I'd like to see a lawyer comb through it and at least confirm that it isn't factually wrong. It may not be complete, but at least it isn't factually wrong. I'd also like to include the swallowing tests and when they occurred. They're mentioned in a report, but no dates are given as to when they occurred.
FuelWagon 04:57, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon: I am a lawyer, licensed to practice (and do) in the State of Florida, etc., etc., etc., and I would be happy to look it over and remark; however, my concern is not with the factuality of the nit-picky detail, it's that this nit-picky analysis of minute detail is occurring. I tried to read the article last night to see how the legal issues/cases were addressed and I had to stop in frustration. The elements of the court case have been so separated and broken down in order to make political/social points that it lacks any coherence and is confusing. What I would like to see happen is more organizational (and this is a quick, rough outline): the probate case needs to be addressed separately. Why was this in court (in Florida every person--competent and incompetent--has a right to refuse medical treatment, what the Fla. Stat. say on the subject, the role of the court when the person is incompetent), what the legal issues were before the court (was TS in PVS, what were TS end-of-life wishes)who the parties were, what were their respective arguments, evidence presented, and the judge's decision. Then the appellate process (what happened--what courts did what and why). The initial attempt to get into federal court (which was dimissed I believe). Then "Terri's Law" (what happened; its separate legal case with legal issues unrelated to the probate case--can the legislature/governor do this). Then back to probate court (post-trial motions). Then the feds (law; its unique legal issues and how it went through the federal court system). Then back to probate court (yet more post trial motions). This kind of framework will not exclude all the interesting social/political stuff. What needs to be made clear is that such-and-such a side points to and excises a particular element of the court case to make its social commentary. Mia-Cle 14:06, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Mia-Cle, if you can do that, I salute you. I'm no lawyer, so it's WAY over my head. to Mia-Cle and Minaflorida, I think this bit about the "natural means" motion is making a mountain out of a molehill. I looked at the motions and Greer's denial and realized that Greer is calling feeding by natural means an "experimental procedure" (same conclusion as you, Minaflorida, I thought of it indiependently in the shower this morning, honest), a "different pleading" of the same thing. Basically, the first motion asks for VitalStim swallowing therapy, which had never been done on a PVS patient, the second motion doesn't call it "swallowing therapy" but says "can we try to feed her? Maybe we can get her to swallow", which is swallowing therapy with a different label. The only reason I want to keep it in is because it's obviously become a hot button issue for people who want to hang Greer. "My God, he won't let them feed her by natural means? He's a monster!" I would like to put in when swallowing tests were performed. A report mentions the tests and says she failed them, but no dates were given. Anyway, I tried to tweak teh article a little bit to explain the motions and denials for those who wish to hang the judge. FuelWagon 14:37, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wrote a little e-mail to Matt Conigliaro at abstractappeal, asking him a couple of questions about these two motions. He's been really helpful for me in the past, so I hope to get a response in the next few days. I invited him to come edit the page, if he's interested. I don't know what the odds are on that--dude is one busy mofo--but it's a try. (:--
Minaflorida 17:04, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is universally agreed that the discontinuance of hydration and feeding caused Terri to die. At the time of these two motions (First, request for time for experimental procedures
[8], and second, request to feed by natural means
[9]) there was an order in place to remove her feeding tube. The denial of these orders extended that to prohibiting feeding by "natural means". It is possible that the judge considered it experimental, but, whatever his reasoning, it was prohibited and enforced. The issue of feeding by natural means became a significant part of the final controversy. Over 50 demonstrators were arrested at the hospice trying to bring her water, presumably for attempted feeding by mouth. No demonstrators were attempted to bring her a feeding tube. Feeding by natural means is not life support under Florida law, so the controversy and discussion have a rational basis. So these motions should be referenced and described. There should not be any paraphrasing slanting a point of view, as the documents are direct and speak for themselves. While they are legal documents, and subject to all the formalities of the legal process, they are still comprehensible and clear. Legal analysis is fine, but will not be a service to obscure these motions in formalities. They will be important for readers wishing to reference and study this issue.
Tropix 17:37, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)
You are absolutely correct, that they were arrested for trespassing. When I said they were arrested trying to bring her water, I didn't mean to imply that was the reason for arrest. It was the nature of the protest I meant to describe. Tropix 20:56, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The original valentines day argument is presented in pretty much from Mary Schindler's point of view. I removed it and placed it here, for review:
I replaced it with excerpts from the wolfson and pearse reports which are a bit more neutral. I also moved it to the section "family relationship" so it isn't specific to the Schindlers any more. I'd like to trim down some of the stuff that is in the Michael section but should be in the "relationship" section.
Complaints about the cut, move, and rewrite? FuelWagon 23:59, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article is getting seriously lengthy. I propose turning it into a private/public split as was earlier proposed by another user who's name eludes me. Essentialy one could make an article about the Public involvement in the Terri Schiavo case with sections 7, 8, 9, 9.1, 9.2, 9.2.1, 9.2.2, 9.2.3, 9.3, 9.4, 9.5 & 9.6. This would be an intelligent fork in the article as the rest of the sections deal with the private aspects of the Schiavo case. It would at least help in reducing it in size. Any comments? Professor Ninja 00:23, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I checked the diffs. I reverted your edit along with the vandalism. Which was not my intention, as there was nothing wrong with your edits. I apologize. Professor Ninja 23:08, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. Ann Heneghan 23:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've been watching this war (and responding a time or two myself) for some time. I believe I was the first to make the observation that NCDave was merely a troll, and recent events have completely erased any doubt in my mind. On usenet and other fora we have found the most effective method for dealing with persons of that ilk are the age old practice of shunning. Do not respond to him. Do not acknowledge him. Do not rise to your own defense when he attacks, misquotes, or otherwise abuses you or the article or the process. All we need to do is watch for his stealth oh-dark-hundred vandalisms and revert as quickly as possible. He is clearly starved for attention and is not worthy of one nanosecond of anyone's time. LRod 216.76.216.65 23:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Judge Greer denies a motion to provide food and water to Terri by "natural means" here: http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/030805orderdenyfood.pdf
Unfortunately, it references another motion, which I don't have a URL for.
The order to deny food and water by natural means: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder030805.pdf StuartGathman 14:49, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone added it to the intro saying Greer prohibited foor and water by natural means. I tweaked it to say he denied a motion for food and water by natural means. but I would like to add the explanation. Unfortunately, Greer references some other motion which I don't have a URL for and he also says "Both require an experimental procedure". Does anyone have plain language explanation of why the motion was denied? It sounds like it is a duplicate of another motion, and the otehr motion was denied for some reason. FuelWagon 07:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone explain the legalease going on in this motion being rejected? Greer references some other document or some other motion or something, and I don't know how to trace back to the original from his cryptographic text. I want to know what legal basis was to reject the motion, leaving it as "just rejected" leaves too many interpretations open. need more facts. FuelWagon 23:47, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My best guess, which is at least somewhere to start, is that this is the earlier motion that the later denial of motion refers to: document here
The denial order (the one dated March 8) mentions that the content of the motion is part and parcel of the previous "motion on medical evaluations." I believe the court is talking about the motion where the Schindlers asked for new tests. That motion was itself denied on March 9: document here That would be consistent with the language in the March 8 denial, as it refers to the previous motion as if it had not yet been ruled on.-- Minaflorida 20:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
from Tropix, via my user talk page:
Here is my concern: The second motion does not contain any reference to experimental procedures. Maybe something was attached to the motion, I don't know, but the body of the motion is only about feeding by mouth, no tests. I suggest you might delete the statement "It contained the same requests for fMRI scans, the same request for VitalStim swallowing therapy, and the same affadavits." if that statement is wrong. I agree that the judge in his denial order refers to both motions as requesting experimental procedures, but this appears to be an error on his part. Perhaps the first one did, but not the second.
You may wish also wish to read the 2000 order, page 10, where Judge Greer orders the discontinuance of Micheal's artificial life support. I assume that even a judge can make minor errors from time to time.
Tropix 05:07, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
I noted your change this morning, and thank you for removing that sentence. Since you added the judge's wording (in which he apparently spoke in error) it would neutralize the remaining inaccuracy to add a comment that the second motion did not, in fact, request experimental procedures. Otherwise, the reader is given the direct but wrong impression that it did, when we know it didn't. Tropix 15:13, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FuelWagon"
Tropix, if you can find the original motions and show that one doesn't mention fMRI, then put it in. If you can show a court document from the Schindlers or something from their lawyer were they object to this comment, then link to that and put it in. But unless you have something that solid to show Greer made a provable mistake, and the Schindlers or someone else neutral didn't dispute it, then you can't just say Greer's decision is wrong, when the Shindlers never disputed it or something. if an appeal court or something looked at everything and said, "yeah, Greer should have treated these as two separate motions" then go for it. Otherwise, we're "in the minutia" as Mia-Cle said. If Greer MISPOKE but his decision to deny would still stand, what is the point, reallY? If an appeal court or something woudl say his decision was valid, then who are you trying to hang by bringing this up? If the Schindlers or their lawyer said something about Greer's wording or decision, then put that in as a direct dispute. But the opinion of some armchair lawyer on a third-party blog and a demonstrated bias should probably stay out. Do you get what I'm trying to say? I don't mind putting in any valid disputes, but I don't want this to be a way for some "Culture of Death" comment from some outside website to be snuck into the article. There is a fundamental difference. It really comes down to the source of who is disputing the decision. If the Schindlers didn't try to show Greer was wrong or had misread the motions, then why bring in some third party with a political agenda? do you get where I'm coming from? FuelWagon 16:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think we need a lawyer to go over the life-prolonging-procedures/life support/feeding tube section. There are motions and motions and rulings and rulings and a lot of explanations and I'd like to see a lawyer comb through it and at least confirm that it isn't factually wrong. It may not be complete, but at least it isn't factually wrong. I'd also like to include the swallowing tests and when they occurred. They're mentioned in a report, but no dates are given as to when they occurred.
FuelWagon 04:57, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon: I am a lawyer, licensed to practice (and do) in the State of Florida, etc., etc., etc., and I would be happy to look it over and remark; however, my concern is not with the factuality of the nit-picky detail, it's that this nit-picky analysis of minute detail is occurring. I tried to read the article last night to see how the legal issues/cases were addressed and I had to stop in frustration. The elements of the court case have been so separated and broken down in order to make political/social points that it lacks any coherence and is confusing. What I would like to see happen is more organizational (and this is a quick, rough outline): the probate case needs to be addressed separately. Why was this in court (in Florida every person--competent and incompetent--has a right to refuse medical treatment, what the Fla. Stat. say on the subject, the role of the court when the person is incompetent), what the legal issues were before the court (was TS in PVS, what were TS end-of-life wishes)who the parties were, what were their respective arguments, evidence presented, and the judge's decision. Then the appellate process (what happened--what courts did what and why). The initial attempt to get into federal court (which was dimissed I believe). Then "Terri's Law" (what happened; its separate legal case with legal issues unrelated to the probate case--can the legislature/governor do this). Then back to probate court (post-trial motions). Then the feds (law; its unique legal issues and how it went through the federal court system). Then back to probate court (yet more post trial motions). This kind of framework will not exclude all the interesting social/political stuff. What needs to be made clear is that such-and-such a side points to and excises a particular element of the court case to make its social commentary. Mia-Cle 14:06, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Mia-Cle, if you can do that, I salute you. I'm no lawyer, so it's WAY over my head. to Mia-Cle and Minaflorida, I think this bit about the "natural means" motion is making a mountain out of a molehill. I looked at the motions and Greer's denial and realized that Greer is calling feeding by natural means an "experimental procedure" (same conclusion as you, Minaflorida, I thought of it indiependently in the shower this morning, honest), a "different pleading" of the same thing. Basically, the first motion asks for VitalStim swallowing therapy, which had never been done on a PVS patient, the second motion doesn't call it "swallowing therapy" but says "can we try to feed her? Maybe we can get her to swallow", which is swallowing therapy with a different label. The only reason I want to keep it in is because it's obviously become a hot button issue for people who want to hang Greer. "My God, he won't let them feed her by natural means? He's a monster!" I would like to put in when swallowing tests were performed. A report mentions the tests and says she failed them, but no dates were given. Anyway, I tried to tweak teh article a little bit to explain the motions and denials for those who wish to hang the judge. FuelWagon 14:37, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wrote a little e-mail to Matt Conigliaro at abstractappeal, asking him a couple of questions about these two motions. He's been really helpful for me in the past, so I hope to get a response in the next few days. I invited him to come edit the page, if he's interested. I don't know what the odds are on that--dude is one busy mofo--but it's a try. (:--
Minaflorida 17:04, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is universally agreed that the discontinuance of hydration and feeding caused Terri to die. At the time of these two motions (First, request for time for experimental procedures
[8], and second, request to feed by natural means
[9]) there was an order in place to remove her feeding tube. The denial of these orders extended that to prohibiting feeding by "natural means". It is possible that the judge considered it experimental, but, whatever his reasoning, it was prohibited and enforced. The issue of feeding by natural means became a significant part of the final controversy. Over 50 demonstrators were arrested at the hospice trying to bring her water, presumably for attempted feeding by mouth. No demonstrators were attempted to bring her a feeding tube. Feeding by natural means is not life support under Florida law, so the controversy and discussion have a rational basis. So these motions should be referenced and described. There should not be any paraphrasing slanting a point of view, as the documents are direct and speak for themselves. While they are legal documents, and subject to all the formalities of the legal process, they are still comprehensible and clear. Legal analysis is fine, but will not be a service to obscure these motions in formalities. They will be important for readers wishing to reference and study this issue.
Tropix 17:37, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)
You are absolutely correct, that they were arrested for trespassing. When I said they were arrested trying to bring her water, I didn't mean to imply that was the reason for arrest. It was the nature of the protest I meant to describe. Tropix 20:56, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)