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Was the Livonian Confederation (and for that matter, the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights) actually IN the Holy Roman Empire? Most sources I have seen point to no, just wondering if there is any sources that say whether or not these nations actually WERE in the HRE. Rcduggan ( talk) 00:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
This is to Albert Krantz regarding the map of Livonian Confederation. Please note that it's one thing that meant Livonia in the 16th century and another what it is today on Wikipedia. And on wikipedia this is a map of Livonian Confederation, not Livonia. As Livonia in the 21st century on WP can mean anything from the land of indigenous Livonian people - Livonia up to Livonia, a province of Russian empire etc. If you'd click on the link Livonia, it would be possible to find out all the different meanings that Livonia can have. there is something called wikifying that keeps articles organized and that is the reason this map should link to Livonian Confederation. -- Termer ( talk) 02:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Albert but I just didn't get it. First of all the article here is about history of "Baltic lands", literally. And for second the name "Livonian Confederation" has been only used by modern historians exactly like "Old Livonia". "Livonian Confederation" or "Old Livonia" is a modern English name as Alt-Livonia is a modern German, one of the native names to this former country. But in case you were after the original native name, thats fine. Provintz Lyfflandt was used by Balthasar Russow in his Livonian Chronicle from the 16th century.-- Termer ( talk) 01:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
"Livonian Confederation" and "Old Livonia" are not interchangeable? And "Old Livonia" is not used for the state but just the territory? You can't be serious, there are enough historians who are using "Old Livonia" to denote the state thats also called "Livonian Confederation" nowadays:
Saying that Old Livonia can be used just for the territory, not the state would be like saying, Germany can be used just for territory, not for the state.
Now, in fact the "Livonian Confederation" didn't exist before 1418 [1], therefore actually Old Livonia would be much more accurate title for the article since William of Modena didn't create any confederations, just divided the lands between the Church and the Order. etc. also I regret that you have chosen to insist calling the map of Livonia that shows borders that didn't exist in 1573.
Since I think all your reverts have been unreasonable, but I'm not willing to get dragged into an edit war, I need to tag the article accordingly for now. thanks!-- Termer ( talk) 23:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, here is the deal, since Livonian Confederation was only formed in the 15th century, but we still need an article that would cover the history for the period from after the Livonian Crusade up to Livonian War, and since this article has been fulfilling the purpose, it would need a new and appropriate name. If we go with the pattern, Polish Livonia, Swedish Livonia this article should be called either German Livonia 23 returns at google books or Teutonic Livonia 4 returns at googe books or also a bit ambiguous Old Livonia has been used by historians -138 returns at google books. The bottom line, there were 3 major periods in the history of Old-Teutonic-German Livonia. The era of Swordbrothers, the era of Ordenstaat after the Swordbrothers were merged with Teutonic Order, and finally the era of Livonian Confedertaion after the 1410 Battle of Grunwald the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order , the Livonian Order continued de facto rule in Livonia independently and more in cooperation with local Prince Bishops by signing the confederation agreement. Any comments and thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!-- Termer ( talk) 21:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The Swedish flag is the military flag and the Danish the governmental administrative flag and not the state flags. Zzalpha ( talk) 16:36, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 2, 2012, February 2, 2013, February 2, 2016, and February 2, 2020. |
Was the Livonian Confederation (and for that matter, the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights) actually IN the Holy Roman Empire? Most sources I have seen point to no, just wondering if there is any sources that say whether or not these nations actually WERE in the HRE. Rcduggan ( talk) 00:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
This is to Albert Krantz regarding the map of Livonian Confederation. Please note that it's one thing that meant Livonia in the 16th century and another what it is today on Wikipedia. And on wikipedia this is a map of Livonian Confederation, not Livonia. As Livonia in the 21st century on WP can mean anything from the land of indigenous Livonian people - Livonia up to Livonia, a province of Russian empire etc. If you'd click on the link Livonia, it would be possible to find out all the different meanings that Livonia can have. there is something called wikifying that keeps articles organized and that is the reason this map should link to Livonian Confederation. -- Termer ( talk) 02:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Albert but I just didn't get it. First of all the article here is about history of "Baltic lands", literally. And for second the name "Livonian Confederation" has been only used by modern historians exactly like "Old Livonia". "Livonian Confederation" or "Old Livonia" is a modern English name as Alt-Livonia is a modern German, one of the native names to this former country. But in case you were after the original native name, thats fine. Provintz Lyfflandt was used by Balthasar Russow in his Livonian Chronicle from the 16th century.-- Termer ( talk) 01:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
"Livonian Confederation" and "Old Livonia" are not interchangeable? And "Old Livonia" is not used for the state but just the territory? You can't be serious, there are enough historians who are using "Old Livonia" to denote the state thats also called "Livonian Confederation" nowadays:
Saying that Old Livonia can be used just for the territory, not the state would be like saying, Germany can be used just for territory, not for the state.
Now, in fact the "Livonian Confederation" didn't exist before 1418 [1], therefore actually Old Livonia would be much more accurate title for the article since William of Modena didn't create any confederations, just divided the lands between the Church and the Order. etc. also I regret that you have chosen to insist calling the map of Livonia that shows borders that didn't exist in 1573.
Since I think all your reverts have been unreasonable, but I'm not willing to get dragged into an edit war, I need to tag the article accordingly for now. thanks!-- Termer ( talk) 23:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, here is the deal, since Livonian Confederation was only formed in the 15th century, but we still need an article that would cover the history for the period from after the Livonian Crusade up to Livonian War, and since this article has been fulfilling the purpose, it would need a new and appropriate name. If we go with the pattern, Polish Livonia, Swedish Livonia this article should be called either German Livonia 23 returns at google books or Teutonic Livonia 4 returns at googe books or also a bit ambiguous Old Livonia has been used by historians -138 returns at google books. The bottom line, there were 3 major periods in the history of Old-Teutonic-German Livonia. The era of Swordbrothers, the era of Ordenstaat after the Swordbrothers were merged with Teutonic Order, and finally the era of Livonian Confedertaion after the 1410 Battle of Grunwald the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order , the Livonian Order continued de facto rule in Livonia independently and more in cooperation with local Prince Bishops by signing the confederation agreement. Any comments and thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!-- Termer ( talk) 21:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The Swedish flag is the military flag and the Danish the governmental administrative flag and not the state flags. Zzalpha ( talk) 16:36, 12 February 2023 (UTC)