This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 13 September 2012. The result of the move review was Decision endorsed. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Tenedos → Bozcaada – There is clear evidence that Bozcaada is the preferred English language name. To ease the discussion, I made a usage table of key source in Google here: Naming Chart. As is seen, Bozcaada or the equivalent is the preferred usage in: Encyclopedia Britanica, Oxford and National Geographic Atlas of the World, Google Maps, Library of Congress Subject Heading, Major English Language Newspapers, and is the translated use in BBC wire services. Tenedos is the preferred use in Webster's Dictionary(although online version uses Bozcaada) and in Google Scholar/Books Searches (inflated because of use of the word in the Iliad and the Aenead). Newspaper references to the island clearly show the preference for Bozcaada over Tenedos (see Google table here). All contemporary references to the island use Bozcaada, including the New York Times, Reuters, AP, The Guardian, BBC, Sunday Telegram, and others. Tenedos is used to refer to the island almost exclusively in the contest of the Iliad or Gallipoli campaign, which does not satisfy the Wikipedia criteria for modern use. The Wikipedia Naming Conventions are clear about the best practices for this decision: 1. the widely accepted English Name. 2. If no widely accepted English name exists, "the modern official name...should be used." Tenedos is neither the widely accepted English name, nor is it the modern official name. Bozcaada is much preferred and the modern official name. I am not a partisan in this fight, let's just get it right. Please look at my evidence before opposing, and tell us why Tenedos should be considered the "widely accepted English name" when a lot of smart people aren't using it? AbstractIllusions ( talk) 20:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC) Support - all voters must pay attention to the empirical evidence assembled by AbstractIllusions. Thanks to the latter for compiling this data, which clearly demonstrates that Bozcaada is the preferred modern English term. The Independent (UK, national) is yet another newspaper that uses Bozcaada, see here. Leading guidebooks also refer to the island as Bozcaada, see Fodor's and Lonely Planet. Mlepori ( talk) 22:23, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Oppose, for the 100th time. What's this another move request by a new redlinked account? Didn't we just have another one less than a month ago? There have been innumerable move requests in the past, and they have all failed. There is a good reason for that: "Tenedos" is much more widely used in reliable English-language sources than "Bozcaada", as reflected both on Google Books ( 272,000 vs. 16,000 hits) or Google Scholar ( 8900 vs. 1400 hits). It means nothing that one reason may be due to the wealth of literature on the Iliad, it matters that these are reliable sources, and that they use Tenedos. There are several reasons for this. First, "Tenedos" has been the island's name from antiquity. Second, the name "Bozcaada" is part of a process of Turkification and has never really caught on in the English world. Third, Tenedos is a small, relatively insignificant island by any standard. It's main claim to fame is its association with the Iliad. Any source dealing with Tenedos in an archeological and/or mythological context, regardless of publication date, will obviously refer to it as "Tenedos". Since Tenedos' only other claim to fame is tourism, that pretty much leaves tourist guidebooks as the main English-language sources referring to it as "Bozcaada" (and also official government publications). But there is no question that among reliable English-language sources, Tenedos is by far the more widely used name. Selective searches such as the one above mean nothing, nor the fact that tourist guidebooks use "Bozcaada" (they are not really considered reliable sources). Another important point is that while many sources mention "Bozcaada" in passing because it's the official name, they use Tenedos throughout: [1] [2]. Athenean ( talk) 19:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Support - It's been shown many times that Bozcaada is the preferred English name for this island. This is a fact. Takabeg provided the most detailed analysis on why this is a fact and AbstractIllusions further builds on that. All that is left is people's vote and we move this article to it's correct name. Athenean's flawed arguments are debunked by Takabeg is the utmost detail on this page above from August 2011. It could be convenient for editors to check on those posts for those arguments. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 02:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Oppose We cannot have a new move proposal every month. The rejected proposal of July 2012 is hardly a month old. This is getting ridiculous. Δρ.Κ. λόγος πράξις 02:44, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Support - I agree with Mlepori (high above). We should have one standard for names: The actual one, i.e. the actual name. If not we should go to many articles about Greece and several other countries and make changes of name thereat, instead. If we do not have special rules for Greek language here in WP it is a meaningless discussion. Bozcaada is Bozcaada and should be named so in WP; somewhere in the Bozcaada article we may refer to its ancient name, of course, not in the lead though... -- E4024 ( talk) 17:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Support - it's a Turkish island with a majority Turkish population. It makes no sense to retain the Greek toponym as the article name. Similarly, the article İskenderun is not named Alexandretta, Istanbul is not named Constantinople, Izmir is not named Smyrna etc. etc. - TaalVerbeteraar ( talk) 19:25, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Support - the desire to maintain Hellenic culture (Homer, etc) should not take precedence over everyday English language. If English media use Bozcaada then so too should Wikipedia. Wikipedia is for all English speakers21:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC) 71.192.24.73 ( talk) 21:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Oppose and quick close: The Google Books search proves beyond doubt that Tenedos is the standard word still used for the island ( 272,000 for Tenedos vs. 16,000 for Bozcaada). Can't see a single argument which disproves this clear count. The last vote took place in July, so the August vote looks a pretty protracted case of WP:IDHT or monthly voting until the 'right' result is reached. Given the sensitive nature of the matter and the dubious circumstances of this vote, I would advise to ignore the votes of all IPs and single-purpose accounts, even if this vote is not quickly closed which I believe should be. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 23:03, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Some people who support the move claim to have "data" and keep clamoring for "data". But they overlook the most important piece of data, that "Tenedos" is far more widely used in English usage compared to "Bozcaada". This graph makes the point very compellingly [3]. While the use of "Bozcaada" has been increasing, and that of "Tenedos" decreasing, we are still very, very far off from the time when Bozcaada will be more common, if ever. Athenean ( talk) 21:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Does the fact that so many major English media sources use Bozcaada not matter? Why are we supposed to ignore this? Why is this supposed to have no effect upon our decision? 71.192.30.158 ( talk) 14:22, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
Support I read the New York Times article on Bozcaada and then came here, and was quite surprised to find that Wikipedia is using Tenedos, the Homeric name! Homer is great and all, but that is insufficient reason for having the US Wikipedia use Tenedos. It by rule uses the common English media word or phrasing. 64.134.223.42 ( talk) 01:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Note:Heh, yet another IP editor with virtually no contributions to wikipedia. What's that, like the 3rd or 4th? NoteFocus on the dispute, not the editors. Thanks! Cinque stelle ( talk) 21:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Support I understand why you call it Florence and not Firenze, because English media calls it Florence. I have never seen it referred to as Tenedos in the contemporary media! I traveled there and did a lot of research prior to going and all articles referred to it as Bozcaada ... Tenedos was used only when referencing its past. Cinque stelle ( talk) 17:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Support See please Talk:Tenedos#Has_anyone_suggested_nameing_it_.22Tenedos_or_Bozcaada.22_or_.22Bozcaada_or_Tenedos_.22.3F, in which I try to but cannot find any reason to oppose the move. Chrisrus ( talk) 15:35, 26 August 2012 (UTC) 'Strong Oppose' I visit the island every summer the locals and the diaspora spell it TENEDOS. Bazca what? thia name is just used by Turkish authorities for turkification reasons from the60's. never thought that a wikipedia adopts thia policies. 79.129.111.236 ( talk) 08:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
-- E4024 ( talk) 09:00, 4 September 2012 (UTC) Bold text
Oppose Again new one. How many times will those two island be nominated. Current one is most common English name, and that is already explained above by several editors. Oppose this proposition. -- WhiteWriter speaks 09:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Support Looking up and down this discussion page I'm amazed such time and effort has been expended in such denialism and specious argument. I can't actually accept that people even believe half of what they're saying. The idea that Tenedos is the common name in English in 2012 for this island is one of the more ridiculous claims I've seen recently in any RM. And simply asserting it, as ever, does not make it any truer. Virtually every news source, map, reference work and guide book cited has this place as Bozcaada and this has been demonstrated above. When it comes to Google returns, regardless of the numbers - which are usually misleading, as they are in this case, for a variety of reasons - looking at the opening hits, in books, news and general search, clears up any confusion about the context in which the terms are used, and which is more commonly used for the island today, in seconds. As for trying to wangle out of the obvious and decisive rebuttal that Tenedos is only so common in Google Books because of archaic and historical references by arguing that such usage still somehow counts for the purposes of this sort of discussion, the less said about that the better. Maybe this has come up once too often too recently in the past, but that's because we've got this so badly wrong and for some reason one or two people manage to veto any correction each time. N-HH talk/ edits 13:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Support per my RfC comment. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 20:51, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Somebody (probably a user unlogged for anonymity) is trying to play game. But this is not a playground, this is an encyclopaedia. The name of the district and the island is Bozcaada, not Bzcaqhat. For English speakers it is simpler than the names of most foreign places. Anyway, since Wikipedia uses valid names rather than the historical names (as I have shown before) it has to be named Bozcaada. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 19:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Everybody has right to state his/her opinion. But nobody has right to make fun of names. What is Bzcaqhat ? As for my POV, actually this is not solely my POV . It is in a way, WP's POV. I have shown many examples where valid names are used instead of former names (which have more written English sources). It is normal. Check modern maps. No map uses source-rich historical names anymore. Keeping the former name of Bozacaada would only prove a double standart which I wouldn't ascribe to Wikipedia. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 19:48, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
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I regret to have to do this but feel I have to. Here is the link of a talk between me and the "former closing admin" dating 23 August 2012. On that date I made a random call to several users -most of whom I did not know before- and asked them to join the discussion in this page. Some of them, like Mike Cline, an admin, accepted my invitation and came to the talk page to opine. Others declined or ignored the invitation. (Another reminded me this activity could be taken as canvassing, so I stopped inviting people.) Drmies did not come to the discussion page but -I think- made a hint of his choice between the two discussed names as can be seen at the link. Now I wish he had instead come to the discussion page then, like his colleague Cline, and write down his opinion there. That way he could be now in a better position to come forward to close the discussion. I am not sure about the extent of the word "uninvolved" in this context, as he has not directly taken part in the discussion, but is it correct for an admin to use authority on such a move after discussing it even in some other place? I have no aspirations for any status that brings together certain limitations and responsibilities so I think I can allow myself to say this: If I was in the aforementioned admin's shoes I would withdraw my controversial act without any more efforts of justification. Independendently from the foregoing, I would consider getting rid of extra responsibilities to be able to edit WP more freely. I have just returned from a block, admin Drmies, please do not block me for this audacity...-- E4024 ( talk) 23:52, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Evidence record in Naming Dispute 2012Thought it might be helpful with the August 2012 name dispute to collect the evidence analyzed. Because a lot was said and a good record can help future editors and in any future naming requests. The list was done alphabetically (last name of source if it was a book) to avoid any bias in presentation. It need not be reminded, but not all evidence is equal, the weight of evidence is not the discussion here. Any evidence that was claimed is put in with the claimed use of the island in 2012. If you think that evidence that was discussed is missing (I'm sincerely sorry) please include it. If you think that evidence was not claimed correctly regarding its use, please discuss in the Comments before changing its Use Designation. If you have new or additional evidence, this is not the space for it. This is just an easier to read collection of all the evidence used. AbstractIllusions ( talk) 20:26, 14 September 2012 (UTC) List of EvidenceCan be edited by any editor, but please do not post evidence which was not discussed in the August 2012 Move request or change the use designation without discussion in the Comments section.
Comments
Note/Analysis re Google BooksThis was the key evidence cited in favour of Tenedos. The raw hits claimed by User:Athenean, via Google.com, set Tenedos at 272,000 vs 16,000 for Bozcaada, as noted in the above table. The more focused search (specifying “island” in a bid to avoid mis-hits on ships, horses, other geographic locations etc, excluding books published in the 19th century etc) claimed stats of 2240 vs 313. Now, WP rules are explicit all over the place about not simply taking Google hit numbers, for books or any other sub-set of its search facilities. And here’s the reason why in this case. Taking the second set of returns for Tenedos, here are the 20 first books that come up, most of which do indeed use Tenedos to refer to the island:
Even being generous, that makes only three out of the 20 carry any weight as evidence for the modern, common name. We should also bear in mind that Danzig beats Gdansk by about 5:1 and Dimetoka beats Didymoteicho by about 20:1. The weight of historical references should not overturn the predominance of the modern form in the modern context. N-HH talk/ edits 10:11, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Sources that comment on the nameOK, we've got a schedule above of maps, atlases, modern guide-books etc that all prefer Bozcaada. We've also got some evidence there that Tenedos is also sometimes still used in modern contexts, although most commonly in a historical context. Below I've tried to pull together a sample of sources based not on use but on direct assertions and statements about use. The sources all use or prefer Bozcaada, but then explicitly note that Tenedos is an old or Greek name - not only does this offer further supporting evidence for the proposition that Bozcaada is the proper modern name, but it clarifies the prevalence of Tenedos in older published sources and sources focused on history. Unlike the above schedule not all were cited in the move request itself. Some were, but not necessarily with the quote highlighted. Major international news sources and dictionaries etc are all specifically recommended by WP:NCGN as being good sources for naming decisions. Even if we acknowledge that some would not be suitable as references for substantive or complex content, they all undoubtedly work well as evidence for the simple question: what do people commonly call, or not call, this place in 2012? Media
Dictionaries
Historical/Academic Books
Guide Books & Publishers
They don't on their own necessarily prove everything - but they show a widespread acknowledgement and explicit assertion by modern English-language sources that the modern Turkish name is the one in standard use today, with Tenedos as a largely historical or Greek alternate. And I can be pretty certain there aren't going to be many sources that make the opposite claim - explicitly, by asserting as much - that Tenedos is the common modern name, but I would happily see them. N-HH talk/ edits 11:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Could it be that both names are essentially equally common?I have become aware of this title dispute due to a question at WP:Article Titles. Having read the above discussions (starting with the page move request in early August, and continuing through the RFC and other threads)... I see a lot of evidence and arguments centered on demonstrating that either Tenedos or Bozcaada is the WP:COMMONNAME. The problem is that both sides believe the evidence supports their sides of the debate. What is becoming clear is that in determining the WP:COMMONNAME, a lot depends on how you search and what tools you use to search. Those who support Tenedos point to one set of statistics and say "according to X search, Tenedos is more common", those who support Bozcaada point to a different set of statistics and say "no, according to Y search, Bozcaada is more common". What we end up with is a stalemate, with each group pointing to their search results, and trying to discredit the other group's search results. I would like to propose a way out (as a neutral third party who does not care which name is used)... could we reach a consensus that neither name is really significantly more common than the other? If we accept this idea, and can agree that both names are essentially equally common, then we must look to policy and guideline provisions other than WP:COMMONNAME to resolve the dispute. I think it is at least worth exploring. What do other policy and guideline provisions tell us, and which name do they indicate should be used as a title? Blueboar ( talk) 20:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
@Blueboar - The only factor that supports the name " Tenedos" over " Bozcaada" is the Google Books results which give the most results for an other name of the island " Phoenice". Unfortunately, that's where the (partially )supporting evidence ends. A detailed look at Google Books results will show that a lot of them are not about the modern island. I went for 20 pages and saw that majority of them were history books or the like while the results for "Bozcaada" returned more modern context. In this page there is extensive amount of work provided by other editors how many reliable sources (news agencies, maps, official government bodies, international organizations, encyclopedias, travel guides etc.) commonly use "Bozcaada". "Tenedos" is still used but mainly when referring to island's old name or if the author is Greek. Exceptions are rare but exists. That said, what does the policies and guidelines tell us? I'll tell what I've told in the place you camefrom: "In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies and scientific journals." The policy continues to tell us: "Search engine results are subject to certain biases and technical limitations; for detailed advice on the use of search engines and the interpretation of their results, see Wikipedia:Search engine test." This leads us to WP:GOOGLETEST. The entirety of the article cautions you against Google search results and tries to better them. When we move on the policy page we also see this: "For ideas on how to deal with situations where there are several competing foreign terms, see "Multiple local names" and "Use modern names" in the geographical naming guideline." Now we reach this guidline: WP:MODERNPLACENAME. This guidelines puts the last nail: "For an article about a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one." So, we look at reliable English sources first. Google results can be helpful but they can't be used to ignore the rest of the evidence. Hence, I don't think there is two equally common names for this island. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 22:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Can anyone point to anything inconsistant with the conclusion that the name of this place has changed? It's very simple. The name of this place has changed! The name of this place has changed. It's a simple knowable fact. It's no more a person's personal point of view to say that the name of this island has changed than it would be to say "In my opinion, Istanbul was called Constantinople, but the Turks changed the name." That's not your opinion, it's a knowable fact. It reminds me of the time Peggy Hill wrote in her "musings" that "In my opinion, kindling is the small pieces of wood that you use to get a fire going." That's not an opinion, it's a known fact! "In my opinion, the flag of South Africa has changed." "In my opinion, New York was once called New Amsterdam." Don't take it from me, get an Atlas and check! They changed the name after they did a treaty with the like ninety years ago, going on a century ago, almost. The treaty gave the island to the Turks. Once it was in their possession, they changed the name. Map makers and such, ever vigilent, changed the name on the maps. Journalists and such followed suit. It's not called Tenedos anymore. Here's a version I'm sure you'll all enjoy. Chrisrus ( talk) 02:10, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
@Blueboar - Let's take a look at those policies:
Were these the policies you were asking for? TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 20:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 13 September 2012. The result of the move review was Decision endorsed. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Extended content
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Tenedos → Bozcaada – There is clear evidence that Bozcaada is the preferred English language name. To ease the discussion, I made a usage table of key source in Google here: Naming Chart. As is seen, Bozcaada or the equivalent is the preferred usage in: Encyclopedia Britanica, Oxford and National Geographic Atlas of the World, Google Maps, Library of Congress Subject Heading, Major English Language Newspapers, and is the translated use in BBC wire services. Tenedos is the preferred use in Webster's Dictionary(although online version uses Bozcaada) and in Google Scholar/Books Searches (inflated because of use of the word in the Iliad and the Aenead). Newspaper references to the island clearly show the preference for Bozcaada over Tenedos (see Google table here). All contemporary references to the island use Bozcaada, including the New York Times, Reuters, AP, The Guardian, BBC, Sunday Telegram, and others. Tenedos is used to refer to the island almost exclusively in the contest of the Iliad or Gallipoli campaign, which does not satisfy the Wikipedia criteria for modern use. The Wikipedia Naming Conventions are clear about the best practices for this decision: 1. the widely accepted English Name. 2. If no widely accepted English name exists, "the modern official name...should be used." Tenedos is neither the widely accepted English name, nor is it the modern official name. Bozcaada is much preferred and the modern official name. I am not a partisan in this fight, let's just get it right. Please look at my evidence before opposing, and tell us why Tenedos should be considered the "widely accepted English name" when a lot of smart people aren't using it? AbstractIllusions ( talk) 20:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC) Support - all voters must pay attention to the empirical evidence assembled by AbstractIllusions. Thanks to the latter for compiling this data, which clearly demonstrates that Bozcaada is the preferred modern English term. The Independent (UK, national) is yet another newspaper that uses Bozcaada, see here. Leading guidebooks also refer to the island as Bozcaada, see Fodor's and Lonely Planet. Mlepori ( talk) 22:23, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Oppose, for the 100th time. What's this another move request by a new redlinked account? Didn't we just have another one less than a month ago? There have been innumerable move requests in the past, and they have all failed. There is a good reason for that: "Tenedos" is much more widely used in reliable English-language sources than "Bozcaada", as reflected both on Google Books ( 272,000 vs. 16,000 hits) or Google Scholar ( 8900 vs. 1400 hits). It means nothing that one reason may be due to the wealth of literature on the Iliad, it matters that these are reliable sources, and that they use Tenedos. There are several reasons for this. First, "Tenedos" has been the island's name from antiquity. Second, the name "Bozcaada" is part of a process of Turkification and has never really caught on in the English world. Third, Tenedos is a small, relatively insignificant island by any standard. It's main claim to fame is its association with the Iliad. Any source dealing with Tenedos in an archeological and/or mythological context, regardless of publication date, will obviously refer to it as "Tenedos". Since Tenedos' only other claim to fame is tourism, that pretty much leaves tourist guidebooks as the main English-language sources referring to it as "Bozcaada" (and also official government publications). But there is no question that among reliable English-language sources, Tenedos is by far the more widely used name. Selective searches such as the one above mean nothing, nor the fact that tourist guidebooks use "Bozcaada" (they are not really considered reliable sources). Another important point is that while many sources mention "Bozcaada" in passing because it's the official name, they use Tenedos throughout: [1] [2]. Athenean ( talk) 19:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Support - It's been shown many times that Bozcaada is the preferred English name for this island. This is a fact. Takabeg provided the most detailed analysis on why this is a fact and AbstractIllusions further builds on that. All that is left is people's vote and we move this article to it's correct name. Athenean's flawed arguments are debunked by Takabeg is the utmost detail on this page above from August 2011. It could be convenient for editors to check on those posts for those arguments. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 02:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Oppose We cannot have a new move proposal every month. The rejected proposal of July 2012 is hardly a month old. This is getting ridiculous. Δρ.Κ. λόγος πράξις 02:44, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Support - I agree with Mlepori (high above). We should have one standard for names: The actual one, i.e. the actual name. If not we should go to many articles about Greece and several other countries and make changes of name thereat, instead. If we do not have special rules for Greek language here in WP it is a meaningless discussion. Bozcaada is Bozcaada and should be named so in WP; somewhere in the Bozcaada article we may refer to its ancient name, of course, not in the lead though... -- E4024 ( talk) 17:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Support - it's a Turkish island with a majority Turkish population. It makes no sense to retain the Greek toponym as the article name. Similarly, the article İskenderun is not named Alexandretta, Istanbul is not named Constantinople, Izmir is not named Smyrna etc. etc. - TaalVerbeteraar ( talk) 19:25, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Support - the desire to maintain Hellenic culture (Homer, etc) should not take precedence over everyday English language. If English media use Bozcaada then so too should Wikipedia. Wikipedia is for all English speakers21:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC) 71.192.24.73 ( talk) 21:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Oppose and quick close: The Google Books search proves beyond doubt that Tenedos is the standard word still used for the island ( 272,000 for Tenedos vs. 16,000 for Bozcaada). Can't see a single argument which disproves this clear count. The last vote took place in July, so the August vote looks a pretty protracted case of WP:IDHT or monthly voting until the 'right' result is reached. Given the sensitive nature of the matter and the dubious circumstances of this vote, I would advise to ignore the votes of all IPs and single-purpose accounts, even if this vote is not quickly closed which I believe should be. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 23:03, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Some people who support the move claim to have "data" and keep clamoring for "data". But they overlook the most important piece of data, that "Tenedos" is far more widely used in English usage compared to "Bozcaada". This graph makes the point very compellingly [3]. While the use of "Bozcaada" has been increasing, and that of "Tenedos" decreasing, we are still very, very far off from the time when Bozcaada will be more common, if ever. Athenean ( talk) 21:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Does the fact that so many major English media sources use Bozcaada not matter? Why are we supposed to ignore this? Why is this supposed to have no effect upon our decision? 71.192.30.158 ( talk) 14:22, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
Support I read the New York Times article on Bozcaada and then came here, and was quite surprised to find that Wikipedia is using Tenedos, the Homeric name! Homer is great and all, but that is insufficient reason for having the US Wikipedia use Tenedos. It by rule uses the common English media word or phrasing. 64.134.223.42 ( talk) 01:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Note:Heh, yet another IP editor with virtually no contributions to wikipedia. What's that, like the 3rd or 4th? NoteFocus on the dispute, not the editors. Thanks! Cinque stelle ( talk) 21:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Support I understand why you call it Florence and not Firenze, because English media calls it Florence. I have never seen it referred to as Tenedos in the contemporary media! I traveled there and did a lot of research prior to going and all articles referred to it as Bozcaada ... Tenedos was used only when referencing its past. Cinque stelle ( talk) 17:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Support See please Talk:Tenedos#Has_anyone_suggested_nameing_it_.22Tenedos_or_Bozcaada.22_or_.22Bozcaada_or_Tenedos_.22.3F, in which I try to but cannot find any reason to oppose the move. Chrisrus ( talk) 15:35, 26 August 2012 (UTC) 'Strong Oppose' I visit the island every summer the locals and the diaspora spell it TENEDOS. Bazca what? thia name is just used by Turkish authorities for turkification reasons from the60's. never thought that a wikipedia adopts thia policies. 79.129.111.236 ( talk) 08:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
-- E4024 ( talk) 09:00, 4 September 2012 (UTC) Bold text
Oppose Again new one. How many times will those two island be nominated. Current one is most common English name, and that is already explained above by several editors. Oppose this proposition. -- WhiteWriter speaks 09:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Support Looking up and down this discussion page I'm amazed such time and effort has been expended in such denialism and specious argument. I can't actually accept that people even believe half of what they're saying. The idea that Tenedos is the common name in English in 2012 for this island is one of the more ridiculous claims I've seen recently in any RM. And simply asserting it, as ever, does not make it any truer. Virtually every news source, map, reference work and guide book cited has this place as Bozcaada and this has been demonstrated above. When it comes to Google returns, regardless of the numbers - which are usually misleading, as they are in this case, for a variety of reasons - looking at the opening hits, in books, news and general search, clears up any confusion about the context in which the terms are used, and which is more commonly used for the island today, in seconds. As for trying to wangle out of the obvious and decisive rebuttal that Tenedos is only so common in Google Books because of archaic and historical references by arguing that such usage still somehow counts for the purposes of this sort of discussion, the less said about that the better. Maybe this has come up once too often too recently in the past, but that's because we've got this so badly wrong and for some reason one or two people manage to veto any correction each time. N-HH talk/ edits 13:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Support per my RfC comment. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 20:51, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Somebody (probably a user unlogged for anonymity) is trying to play game. But this is not a playground, this is an encyclopaedia. The name of the district and the island is Bozcaada, not Bzcaqhat. For English speakers it is simpler than the names of most foreign places. Anyway, since Wikipedia uses valid names rather than the historical names (as I have shown before) it has to be named Bozcaada. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 19:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Everybody has right to state his/her opinion. But nobody has right to make fun of names. What is Bzcaqhat ? As for my POV, actually this is not solely my POV . It is in a way, WP's POV. I have shown many examples where valid names are used instead of former names (which have more written English sources). It is normal. Check modern maps. No map uses source-rich historical names anymore. Keeping the former name of Bozacaada would only prove a double standart which I wouldn't ascribe to Wikipedia. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 19:48, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
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I regret to have to do this but feel I have to. Here is the link of a talk between me and the "former closing admin" dating 23 August 2012. On that date I made a random call to several users -most of whom I did not know before- and asked them to join the discussion in this page. Some of them, like Mike Cline, an admin, accepted my invitation and came to the talk page to opine. Others declined or ignored the invitation. (Another reminded me this activity could be taken as canvassing, so I stopped inviting people.) Drmies did not come to the discussion page but -I think- made a hint of his choice between the two discussed names as can be seen at the link. Now I wish he had instead come to the discussion page then, like his colleague Cline, and write down his opinion there. That way he could be now in a better position to come forward to close the discussion. I am not sure about the extent of the word "uninvolved" in this context, as he has not directly taken part in the discussion, but is it correct for an admin to use authority on such a move after discussing it even in some other place? I have no aspirations for any status that brings together certain limitations and responsibilities so I think I can allow myself to say this: If I was in the aforementioned admin's shoes I would withdraw my controversial act without any more efforts of justification. Independendently from the foregoing, I would consider getting rid of extra responsibilities to be able to edit WP more freely. I have just returned from a block, admin Drmies, please do not block me for this audacity...-- E4024 ( talk) 23:52, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Evidence record in Naming Dispute 2012Thought it might be helpful with the August 2012 name dispute to collect the evidence analyzed. Because a lot was said and a good record can help future editors and in any future naming requests. The list was done alphabetically (last name of source if it was a book) to avoid any bias in presentation. It need not be reminded, but not all evidence is equal, the weight of evidence is not the discussion here. Any evidence that was claimed is put in with the claimed use of the island in 2012. If you think that evidence that was discussed is missing (I'm sincerely sorry) please include it. If you think that evidence was not claimed correctly regarding its use, please discuss in the Comments before changing its Use Designation. If you have new or additional evidence, this is not the space for it. This is just an easier to read collection of all the evidence used. AbstractIllusions ( talk) 20:26, 14 September 2012 (UTC) List of EvidenceCan be edited by any editor, but please do not post evidence which was not discussed in the August 2012 Move request or change the use designation without discussion in the Comments section.
Comments
Note/Analysis re Google BooksThis was the key evidence cited in favour of Tenedos. The raw hits claimed by User:Athenean, via Google.com, set Tenedos at 272,000 vs 16,000 for Bozcaada, as noted in the above table. The more focused search (specifying “island” in a bid to avoid mis-hits on ships, horses, other geographic locations etc, excluding books published in the 19th century etc) claimed stats of 2240 vs 313. Now, WP rules are explicit all over the place about not simply taking Google hit numbers, for books or any other sub-set of its search facilities. And here’s the reason why in this case. Taking the second set of returns for Tenedos, here are the 20 first books that come up, most of which do indeed use Tenedos to refer to the island:
Even being generous, that makes only three out of the 20 carry any weight as evidence for the modern, common name. We should also bear in mind that Danzig beats Gdansk by about 5:1 and Dimetoka beats Didymoteicho by about 20:1. The weight of historical references should not overturn the predominance of the modern form in the modern context. N-HH talk/ edits 10:11, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Sources that comment on the nameOK, we've got a schedule above of maps, atlases, modern guide-books etc that all prefer Bozcaada. We've also got some evidence there that Tenedos is also sometimes still used in modern contexts, although most commonly in a historical context. Below I've tried to pull together a sample of sources based not on use but on direct assertions and statements about use. The sources all use or prefer Bozcaada, but then explicitly note that Tenedos is an old or Greek name - not only does this offer further supporting evidence for the proposition that Bozcaada is the proper modern name, but it clarifies the prevalence of Tenedos in older published sources and sources focused on history. Unlike the above schedule not all were cited in the move request itself. Some were, but not necessarily with the quote highlighted. Major international news sources and dictionaries etc are all specifically recommended by WP:NCGN as being good sources for naming decisions. Even if we acknowledge that some would not be suitable as references for substantive or complex content, they all undoubtedly work well as evidence for the simple question: what do people commonly call, or not call, this place in 2012? Media
Dictionaries
Historical/Academic Books
Guide Books & Publishers
They don't on their own necessarily prove everything - but they show a widespread acknowledgement and explicit assertion by modern English-language sources that the modern Turkish name is the one in standard use today, with Tenedos as a largely historical or Greek alternate. And I can be pretty certain there aren't going to be many sources that make the opposite claim - explicitly, by asserting as much - that Tenedos is the common modern name, but I would happily see them. N-HH talk/ edits 11:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Could it be that both names are essentially equally common?I have become aware of this title dispute due to a question at WP:Article Titles. Having read the above discussions (starting with the page move request in early August, and continuing through the RFC and other threads)... I see a lot of evidence and arguments centered on demonstrating that either Tenedos or Bozcaada is the WP:COMMONNAME. The problem is that both sides believe the evidence supports their sides of the debate. What is becoming clear is that in determining the WP:COMMONNAME, a lot depends on how you search and what tools you use to search. Those who support Tenedos point to one set of statistics and say "according to X search, Tenedos is more common", those who support Bozcaada point to a different set of statistics and say "no, according to Y search, Bozcaada is more common". What we end up with is a stalemate, with each group pointing to their search results, and trying to discredit the other group's search results. I would like to propose a way out (as a neutral third party who does not care which name is used)... could we reach a consensus that neither name is really significantly more common than the other? If we accept this idea, and can agree that both names are essentially equally common, then we must look to policy and guideline provisions other than WP:COMMONNAME to resolve the dispute. I think it is at least worth exploring. What do other policy and guideline provisions tell us, and which name do they indicate should be used as a title? Blueboar ( talk) 20:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
@Blueboar - The only factor that supports the name " Tenedos" over " Bozcaada" is the Google Books results which give the most results for an other name of the island " Phoenice". Unfortunately, that's where the (partially )supporting evidence ends. A detailed look at Google Books results will show that a lot of them are not about the modern island. I went for 20 pages and saw that majority of them were history books or the like while the results for "Bozcaada" returned more modern context. In this page there is extensive amount of work provided by other editors how many reliable sources (news agencies, maps, official government bodies, international organizations, encyclopedias, travel guides etc.) commonly use "Bozcaada". "Tenedos" is still used but mainly when referring to island's old name or if the author is Greek. Exceptions are rare but exists. That said, what does the policies and guidelines tell us? I'll tell what I've told in the place you camefrom: "In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies and scientific journals." The policy continues to tell us: "Search engine results are subject to certain biases and technical limitations; for detailed advice on the use of search engines and the interpretation of their results, see Wikipedia:Search engine test." This leads us to WP:GOOGLETEST. The entirety of the article cautions you against Google search results and tries to better them. When we move on the policy page we also see this: "For ideas on how to deal with situations where there are several competing foreign terms, see "Multiple local names" and "Use modern names" in the geographical naming guideline." Now we reach this guidline: WP:MODERNPLACENAME. This guidelines puts the last nail: "For an article about a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one." So, we look at reliable English sources first. Google results can be helpful but they can't be used to ignore the rest of the evidence. Hence, I don't think there is two equally common names for this island. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 22:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Can anyone point to anything inconsistant with the conclusion that the name of this place has changed? It's very simple. The name of this place has changed! The name of this place has changed. It's a simple knowable fact. It's no more a person's personal point of view to say that the name of this island has changed than it would be to say "In my opinion, Istanbul was called Constantinople, but the Turks changed the name." That's not your opinion, it's a knowable fact. It reminds me of the time Peggy Hill wrote in her "musings" that "In my opinion, kindling is the small pieces of wood that you use to get a fire going." That's not an opinion, it's a known fact! "In my opinion, the flag of South Africa has changed." "In my opinion, New York was once called New Amsterdam." Don't take it from me, get an Atlas and check! They changed the name after they did a treaty with the like ninety years ago, going on a century ago, almost. The treaty gave the island to the Turks. Once it was in their possession, they changed the name. Map makers and such, ever vigilent, changed the name on the maps. Journalists and such followed suit. It's not called Tenedos anymore. Here's a version I'm sure you'll all enjoy. Chrisrus ( talk) 02:10, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
@Blueboar - Let's take a look at those policies:
Were these the policies you were asking for? TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 20:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
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