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America, please limited the use of the word " to believe in" here in this article and every where else in society. I am not going to enumerate its meanings here, but I often see people use it without its apprehension at best, and quite belligerently at worst, especially in interrogative form. I am no linguistic expert, but I suspect that it is as semantic as the word capital.
I like to speak of all of America when I say that we have no idea what you are talking about. You don't have to be a linguisist, but you do have to have an idea, and express it in a way that other people will understand.
Removed this part: -- Amillar 19:32, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm taking this part out:
How much time actually passed between Exodus and Deuteronomy? I doubt it was enough time for women to have any big change in their social status. I also doubt that their position in the belongings is even reflective of their social status. Show some evidence first.
Hmph! No mention of agnostics? ;-) -- Koyaanis Qatsi
If an agnostic is someone who doesn't even know what he believes himself, how can he complain that a certain expression of belief is incompatible with his? An atheist can certainly say that reference to God is contrary to his beliefs, but an agnostic can't. --LDC
Agnostics know what they believe, and what they believe is that humans are incapable of reaching any true understanding of whether there is a God. -- Koyaanis Qatsi
That "no other gods before me" is explicitly a statement of primacy not of monotheism. This is part of the actual Entry Subject, whereas the reactions of unidentified straw man "Liberal groups" is not. Wetman 14:48, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I can't speak for Christians, but Yahweh of the Bible certainly allowed for polytheism. A jealous god, jealous of what? Of not existent gods? Does that make any sense. Plus, direct ref to other gods, Baal, Moloch. And the devil sure seems to have god like powers. And don’t forget the ’sons of gods that found the daughters of men fair and had sexual intercourse with them, producing a race a giants’ (Genesis). Sounds like polytheism to me. SAK
Not all Christians make or worship images of Jesus (see iconoclast, if someone's written it). I've edited to, I hope, clarify that. I also noted that opposition to posting the commandments on public property includes some church groups.
What translation of the bible is quoted there? That has a King James version, but ID would be useful. Vicki Rosenzweig
Can anyone tell me why half of the introductory paragraph is devoted to explaining the Muslim position? It just seems very out of place, and probably ought to be moved somewhere to the bottom of the article, along with (or probably after) the Jewish, Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic positions. Ben
But does it need to be in the introductory paragraph? Certainly there's plenty of criticism in the Qur'an article, but it's all down towards the end. Ben
I wonder where the authors of the section Muslim understanding have found their information. It should be well expressed that although there is an overlap between the most important teachings of islam and those of the ten commmandments the consept of the ten commandments does not exist in islam. The part of the introduction to the article that mentions "They feature prominently in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. " should be re-edited to a higher calrity too. Hakeem.gadi 08:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this statement: Roman Catholics have criticized the Orthodox veneration of icons ? When did they, and who exactly? I'm not aware of any such criticism, and would be glad to learn of it. Wesley 22:10 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC) (shifted into this section for its logical context. Wetman 14:48, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC))
Now really, does it make sense to gloss over the conflict in interpretation between different brances of Christianity? The sentence "the Roman Catholics tradition does not emphasize iconography as strongly as the Orthodox" is simply disingenuous: the Orthodox venerate icons, and the iconoclastic controversy of the 7th (or so) century was all about that. While the RCC today finds no problem with icon veneration, it occasionally criticised the Orthodox practice in the past and it's worth mentioning that. The differences of interpretation between different sects (whether real, or merely polemical) are essential to the part of the article that addresses different interpretations of that commandment. It should be possible to cover the controversy without sacrificing NPOV. Ideally, we'd go into a bit of history of iconoclasm within Christianity, as it's been entirely based on this commandment. Ben
Excellent suggestion! Text within each section should be worded in such a way as to bring up links to further discussion of controversy round each of the Commandments.
- I am concerned that the idea that the Jehovah's witnesses are "conveniently ignoring the phallic" symbolism of the stake maay be a little POV. Perhaps it should be edited into a new sentence saying that critics on the other hand, charge that they are avoiding the phallic idea? Mishac 06:00, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Something a little peculiar: it now includes (for the Jewish interpretation) "(3) "You shall swear falsely by the name of the Lord..."" I'm no expert, but I think there's a missing negative here. Vicki Rosenzweig
Hi, everybody. Several days ago, I expanded to a great degree the section on Judaism and copyedited the part on Catholicism. For some reason, the old version keeps coming back. Now I don't care whether this is a Wiki engine error or someone returning the old version, but I ask you to respect the changes that I had introduced. Thank you. Uriyan
The article quotes from the King James Version and goes into a lot of discussion of problems in that version (but not, interestingly, the translation of "kill"). I suggest that a modern, scholarly translation of the Ten Commandments be used instead, either (New) JPS or NRSV. I would prefer the former but I don't have ready access to the text, so if there are no takers I'll use the NRSV wording instead. SCCarlson 04:31 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)
The Orthodox view of the Ten Commandments is not properly presented. The following is stated: "Catholic and Orthodox Christian understanding of the Ten Commandments Catholic and Orthodox Christians understand the Ten commandments in the following way: (Deuteronomy, RSV) ..."
Actually, Catholic and Orthodox Christians divide Ex. 20: vv 2-6 and v 17 differently. The differences between the Catholic and Orthodox divisions can be seen by comparing the following sites: 1) Summary of the Commandments from 'Catechism of the Catholic Church': http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm 2) The Ten Commandments from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7115.asp 3) The Ten Commandments from the OCA (Orthodox Church of America): http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/orthodox-faith/bible-and-church-history/the-ten-commandments.html
The following page has a nice table that compares the four different traditions of numbering: Philonic (P); Talmudic (T); Augustinian (A); and Lutheran (L). http://www.bible-researcher.com/decalogue.html
some have criticized the version as archaic (e.g. "thou shalt not" instead of "do not") There's that old Some who's responsible for so much "legend has it..." The use of "some" is a disguised passive voice which means to avoid attribution. It is a widespread Wikisin. Do complaints about the language he uses belong in the entry Geoffrey Chaucer? Wetman 14:48, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This page is quite confusing and badly needs a copy-edit. There is much repeated text and much mixing of differing views. Consider having one separate section for each religion, and putting all statements sbout religion X in the section of religon X (i.e. avoid phrases like "Xs understand this but Y read that" or "Unlike Xs, Ys understand that..."). Each section should include the corresponding text from the corresponding edition of the Bible. Jorge Stolfi 22:12, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sorry for being ignorant, but in my experience I don't think I have met anyone of any faith that worshipped the object rather than what the object represents. Even Hindus (e.g. Krishna Vaishnavites) who treat a statue of Krishna with meals and washes say that the statue is representative of Krishna.
Have I missed something? Is there any definitive proof that early middle-eastern religions did otherwise than every modern counterpart? My experience appears to severely damage the Christian interpretation of idolatory, as I doubt that there has really ever been someone who worshipped the physical reference as being an identity with the referent. ( 20040302)
Precisely. The statues of Baal were representations of THE God, not of "Baal". The name "Baal" means "Lord", or basically it can be interpreted as "Master/Highest Being". The prohibition of the second commandment is not just meant to exclude statues of gods and goddesses, but any sort of representational object of anything. However, this might only apply to 3-dimensional objects, or the Cherubim on the Ark being some kind of exception.
Anonymous users keep on pushing a version where a third set of commandments (in Exodus 34) is mentioned. Does anyone know what they're trying to say? The commandments in that chapter have very few parallels to the actual Ten Commandments. I would have found Leviticus 19 closer to the mark. JFW | T@lk 19:43, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You use the term "the actual ten commandment" to ref to those in Leviticus 19 (that's a new one on me, most people site Ex 20 or Dt 5). The bible ref's to those in EX 34 (see EX 34.28 I think) as "The Ten Commandents". So, we anonymous users are ref'ing to that which the bible ID's as "the ten commandents" as "the ten commandents". So now you have to ask yourself, 'why did I think that those in Ex 20 (or Lev 19)were "real", the ones written in stone on the moutain'. See "Ten Commandments on TV", just added at the end of this section. You are getting your "truth" from TV producers and Sunday school teachers, then pulling out of the bible only what you you "know" as "true", and not reading what is there!
SAK
==The final set of 10 commandments== The story as follows: Exodus 32 While Moses is up on the mountain the golden calf is made. Moses sees calf and breaks tablets. Severe punishment.
Exodus 33 Tabernacle placed outside of camp. Moses enters. God shows himself to Moses.
Exodus 34 God tells Moses to make new tablets and God will again put the words on them. Last or 3rd set of 10 Commandments. 34:17-1, 34:18-2, 34:19-3, 34:20-4, 34:21-5, 34:22-6, 34:23-7, 34:24-8, 34:25-9, 34:26-10. The last commandment being: do not cook a goat kid in their mother's milk. These are the set to be carried in the ark. (Since the first set were broken and now replaced.)The explanation for the difference can only be one thing. God has changed his mind. (God is allowed to do that!) Kazuba I have genuine curiosity and a passion for the obscure. I'm a grunt. Also see: Resurrection added a couple things, then scroll down to Bodily Disappearances. Bet you learned something new. 7 Oct 2004
I have added a sentence mentioning the status of Exodus 34:14-28 among many academic biblical scholars according to the documentary hypothesis. It is believed to represent a layer of the Torah that was written after the establishment of the Jerusalem Temple, a period in history where ritual concerns were beginning to take precedence over ethical obligations. The other decalogue in Exodus is assigned by them to the "P" (Priestly) source and Deuteronomy's to the "Dtr" (Deuteronomist) source. Fire Star 20:42, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is at odds with what Fire Star is saying. The DH hypothesis is that the Ex 34 commandments were more ritualistic and hence came after the "original" 10C. Disclaimer: I don't subscribe to the DH. JFW | T@lk 13:28, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Everyone has the right to disagree or agree. It's no big deal. We are trying to discuss ancient, remote, ill- documented things here. There is no way we can tell "what really happened" about 3,000 years ago. We are only human. Kazuba 13 Oct 2004
Hi Fire Star, I think you are getting off the track. In the present Exodus text do we have two different traditions which define the Ten Commandments or not? What would you tell your 10 year old grand child if you were asked this question? Then surely the next question, if you know kids, Why did we pick only one? Isn't the whole Bible the Divine Word? Kazuba 14 Oct 2004
Hi Jfdwolff, I certainly apologize if I did something wrong. I mean no harm. It is difficult for me to understand "boundaries of curiosity". Please don't use unfamiliar words like patronise. I looked it up in a dictionary and I still don't know what it means. I'm just a grunt. Kazuba 14 Oct 2004
Please explain the series of edits you have attempted to place in the article before actually re-writing the article in this way. You have inserted Yahweh instead of God at various apparently random points. You have confused the issue of the controversial "third" set of 10 commandments. The theophany you describe is contoversial at best. etc. Jayjg 19:01, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
YHWH is actually used throughout Genesis, and (according to the Jewish commentators) the "theophany" He introduced Himself to Moses by this name in Exodus 6:3. It is a non-issue. JFW | T@lk 15:54, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
How does this prove that there were more than "10 commandments"? The text records God as saying " I will inscribe upon the tablets the words that were on the first tablets". In contrast, he tells Moses to "Inscribe these words for yourself, for according to these words I have formed a covenant with you and with Israel". "These words", being the commands he had just been given. This is a completely different set of commands.--Josiah 00:08, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning were removed by User:Yoshiah ap, and I happen to agree with him here. Hopefully, pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:59, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was reading one of my Jewish Theology Books (The Book of Jewish Values) and at one point the author- one Rabbi Joseph Telushkin- states, without naming his source, that a scholar of ancient hebrew had told him the third commandment was imperfectly translated; that idiomatically, the word 'take' is closer to 'carry', and that the commandment should be interpreted not as meaning that God's name was sacred but that one must never act falsely in the name of god. As evidence, Telushkin pointed out that why else would it be that God says things like "God will not allow the one who takes His name in vain to go unpunished." God doesn't seem to think that the commandment against murder needs that extra emphasis. I can't remember where from, but Telushkin also quotes a bible passage that says that this is the one sin which will not be forgiven. Telushkin argued that falsely carrying the name of God would be the only sin which makes God the victim, by damaging his reputation.
Needless to say this makes so much sense that I cannot easily dismiss it. Have any of you heard anything remotely like this before?
- Robin Moshe
Uhm, probably not the most trusting sources :), but I think I heard it more than once, and so it is at least an, well, urban legend: I got told that the Ten Commandments are mistranslated and actually should be the Ten Promises or so. Instead of "Thou shalt not kill" it should be "Hey, lad, you'll never need to kill anymore as long as we're in this together, OK?". Well, usually it's not that informal, but I would like to know if there's any truth in it (anyone knows enough ancient hebraic to check that, or maybe give any source for this story)? -- denny vrandečić (hp) (talk) 00:10, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, "tirtzcah", means to murder. To kill a man is "laharog". This is a commandement not to murder. Obviously execution by a court, or killing your enemy during war falls outside this rule.
I'm curious as to why the text identified in the Bible as the Ten Commandments is not covered in the article. I came to this article hoping to find a discussion of why they are not followed today. I believe the phrase עשרת הדברות only occurs three times in the Old Testament, twice as an injunction to follow them, and once identifying them. The identification is in Ex34, with the ritual commandments. These are bracketed by
And these commandments easily number ten, without any fudging like the commandments enumerated in the article. Certainly for a fundamentalist, these are the terms of the Covenant one must follow? And even if not, doesn't this deserve coverage? — kwami 00:34, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Fuhgettaboudid. No original research please. JFW | T@lk 00:11, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
So provide a reference please. It is certainly not mainstream Jewish or Christian thought. JFW | T@lk 20:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
As long as you quote one autoratitive source, there is no problem. It is still a revisionist theory. Judaism still believes that there is only ONE set of ten commandments, namely the "ethical" ones (which are also very practical, see
Shabbat), and the "ritual" ones are treated as equals of the 603 others. Please do make this clear if you feel the distinction needs to be made.
JFW |
T@lk
16:59, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I have added the Jews and Judaism template to the "Jewish understanding" section of this article, to mirror the Christianity template usage in the "Christian understanding" section. It does seem to be unusual to have an article with two templates -- perhaps the better solution would be to remove both. For now, the balance seemed important, as I could not see a reason why the article should prefer Christianity over Judaism. ~CS 4 July 2005 00:45 (UTC)
I would much prefer to have the page moved to Decalogue. The present title Ten Commandments reminds me uncomfortably of the "Ten Commandments" monuments in the United States that are so steeped in the Protestant tradition. Pilatus 12:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Pilatus, to respond to your suggestion of making Decalogue a disambiguation page linking to Ten Commandments and Ritual Decalogue... It's the same problem. If you ask a Biblical scholar where the Decalogue is, he will respond that traditionally, Ex 20 and Deut 5 are understood as such. The "ritual decalogue" is called such to disambiguate from the "main decalogue".
I hope you understand my considerations. Wikipedia is a powerful knowledge tool, but when naming and organising pages it has to be borne in mind that articles have relative prominence. I think the situation as it stands is the best one. JFW | T@lk 14:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The samaritan script, while derived from Paleo-Hebrew, is quite distinct from the "original hebrew alphabet". Also doesn't saying that the Samaritan pentateuch "harmonizes many of (the Judaic Pentateuch)'s contradictions" break NPOV? -- 216.80.8.142
I don't get it: There are two pages full of musings, but not a single commandment. Is that on purpose? Do you all think your babbling is more important than the word of God? God Bless America 18:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Why on earth was this page turned into a faux disambig? 3 billion people believe that "Ten Commandments" refers to the ones in Ex 20 and Deut 5. A few hundred academics think there's a set in Ex 34 as well. Can we PLEASE undo this disastrous move and get the "ethical decalogue" back to this page title? I'm completely sickened by the lack of consensus-seeking that has gone into this move, and protest most vociferously FDuffy ( talk · contribs)'s pushing of DH POV. JFW | T@lk 12:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Articles should be designed to be useful to the average reader, not to a tiny number of academics, and we've already been over this whole issue in August. Jayjg (talk) 02:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
This NPOV-rebalancing has been up for discussion since August, and since nobody opposed the move, FDuffy was very justified in making the change. But now that everyone has awoken from their slumber, we should definitely address the issue. This article has to be more than a disambiguation page; however, we have to be careful about sacrificing the NPOV principle on the altar of "what people expect". If we have the text of the Ethical decalogue here, we needto also include the text of the Ritual decalogue, with an explanation of why there are two decalogues. For further detailed information about either particular decalogue, people can be referred to the appropriate article. Anything less than this violates the NPOV principle. COGDEN 04:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
The article already points out, in the intro no less, that scholars recognise another, distinct set of commandments. That's all we need. No more. Please. JFW | T@lk 15:32, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
We should first understand what it means for there to be two. It does not mean that any person alive considers the Ritual decalogue as the "Ten Commandments" rather, it is an opinion that when the bible text refers to a set of Ten Commandments, that it could also be referring to this other text. It is thus not being POV at all to refer primarily to the Ethical decalogue, while mentioning the scholarly contention and linking to an article on the ritual decalogue. There is plenty to discuss on the conventional "Ten Commandments" and it is foolish to make this merely a disambiguation page when, like some disambiguations, the vast majority would consider one interpretation as primary. An article on the Ten Commandments or Decalogue that considers the two of equal relevance for the article is not being encyclopaedic, but overly-scholarly. -- jnothman talk 12:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Kwami, to force an "uncommon" usage onto a page is a form of POV, of which I hold yourself and Francis guilty. Judaism and Christianity agree that there are ten and that they are in Ex 20 and Deut 5. I think that by pushing the Ritual Decalogue any further than it is now, you would be violating NPOV.
I also hotly disagree with COGDEN. This is the same mistake as Francis and Kwami have been making. Just because scholars recognise two sets of commandments does not make them equivalent encyclopedically. I gave the Berlin example above. Will any of you please tell me why this situation is any different? JFW | T@lk 21:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Please re-read WP:NPOV.
Undue Weight: Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. To give such undue weight to the lesser held view may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties.
The vast majority of "concerned parties" consider the "Ten Commandments" to be, well, the Ten Commandments, and not the "Ethical decalogue" that a small number of biblical critics have postulated. Attempts to change the focus of this page will place undue weight on a minority opinion. Jayjg (talk) 02:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
We're not talking here about an extreme minority or fringe opinion. The idea that there are two sets of "ten commandments" is a mainstream opinion, probably the predominant opinion in theological circles. It's only in pop religion where the one set only view reigns. The concerns about "undue weight" were never meant to suppress a mainstream but unpopular opinion. Otherwise, the History of Mesopotamia article would begin with a long description of the Garden of Eden and the Deluge, with a footnote to a sub-article about paleolithic people in the Middle East. Look at the polls: that's what most Americans believe, so we shoudldn't give undue weight to the views of a few elite scholars who don't go with the majority, right? COGDEN 04:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Whatever happened to Francis? His opinion would be appreciated in this interesting discussion that he sparked. Kwami: do you think the 3 billion people are wrong, then, or just unenlightened?
COGDEN: you seem to completely misunderstand the passage from WP:NPOV quoted by Jayjg above. The "ritual decalogue" is a fringe theory. Face it. The DH is the plaything of academicians and has not found much of an audience with the general public, apart perhaps from some particularly imaginative rubbish from Wellhausen, such as the two Creation narratives. I have already outlined, above, the "principle of least astonishment" as applied to this article. When a reader looks for the Ten Commandments he will expect something on the ones listed in Ex 20 and Deut 5. It is interesting that some theorists think there is also another set as listed in Ex 34, but without a modifier "Ten Commandments" refers to the ones we all know.
The discussion is becoming rather circular. I suggest we leave things in their present state, and carry on with whatever we are good at. JFW | T@lk 22:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
The ritual decalogue is not a fringe theory. 90% of academics, AND the vatican does not constitute the fringe, the 10% that disagree are the fringe.
The only thing which is, in fact, a matter of debate, is why it is Exodus 34 that has the wording "the ten commandments" and not Exodus 20, and what significance the list of commands at Exodus 34 may or may not have had.
Quite why the fact that
is in anyway controversial, is something I do not understand. --francis 21:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I am pleased Francis has finally come to the aid of his move. I'm disappointed that he was childish enough to change the title of this discussion [1].
The section in Ex 34, which I read quite closely today with the commentary of S.R. Hirsch, does not in any way state that the mitzvoth given between the hewing of the second set of tables and the sentence "these are the words of the convenant" refer to the Ten Commandments. The flow of the text is also strange: what was Moses doing on the mountain anyway? Why was he hewing a second set of tablets and what had been on the first ones? In the absence of a ban on idolatry, who cared about the Golden Calf anyway?
It's all injunction, speculation and cleverness for the sake of nothing. The theory raises more issues than it solves, and this is why: until Goethe, nobody had interpreted those few lines in Ex 34 as being "the Ten Commandments", and to speculate that they were was an innovation not supported by a shred of historical evidence.
Now on to the matter of naming this page. Francis counters that few people know about the Ten Commandments anyway. As a student of theology he should know better. It is one of those concepts that has forcefully found its way into Western Culture, and whole books of popular literature are woven around their subject matter. Ask any student with a general education. I suspect that of the people who have heard about the Ten Commandments (a subset of the world's population), about 0.1% will have heard about the set in Ex 34. That's frighteningly small, and I suspect Francis already knew this.
I am all for naming articles according to their academic nomenclature. I was the admin who moved heart attack to myocardial infarction because the latter is the only correct term for that disease entity. However, one cannot ignore the most common use of a term, even amongst academicians.
I urge Francis, COGDEN and all concerned to rest this battle. The "ritual decalogue" is exactly where it should be: mentioned prominently in the article intro, with its own page for considerations of space. I would have supported a seperate paragraph in this article as well, but the present solution is perfect. JFW | T@lk 22:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
The section in Ex 34, which I read quite closely today with the commentaries of Friedmann, Noth, the Jewish Encyclopedia, and the brief comments from Israel Finkelstein, clearly implies that the mitzvoth given between the hewing of the second set of tables and the sentence "these are the words of the convenant" refer to the Ten Commandments, as described only at Exodus 34:28. The fact that these words are 14 chapters away from the commandments of Exodus 20, but right next to the mitzvoth of Exodus 34 is a huge clue. Its like having a map with a label saying "France" over the country containing Calais, and then claiming that France is the country on the map that contains Bombay.
The flow of the text is indeed also strange. The documentary hypothesis explains this quite neatly.
To speculate that Exodus 34 were the Ten Commandments is a process supported by over 90% of academics in the field of Biblical Criticism. That should tell you something about how much such speculation is respected academically.
"Francis counters that few people know about the Ten Commandments anyway" No I don't. I do however counter that few people know all the academic information about the Ten Commandments. While it is one of those concepts that has forcefully found its way into Western Culture, and whole books of popular literature are woven around the subject matter, it is nethertheless the case that few of these indicate any academic knowledge of the subject whatsoever, many inaccurately using "thou shalt not kill" rather than "thou shalt not murder", for example. Ask any student with a general education.
While only about 0.1% of the world will have heard about the set in Exodus 34, even less have heard about Jan van Eyck. That doesn't mean his skill is not substantially noteworthy, or worthy of being a major component in discussion of certain aspects of art. The number of American Jews who are also Haredi, and dispute any critical scholarship is only about 0.1% of the population of the world, and that's frighteningly small, and I already knew this.
The term is deliberately avoided by academics in the subject area, precisely because it is ambiguous, only mentioning the term when they are going to mention both Exodus 34 and Exodus 20.
The ritual decalogue is exactly where it should be. The ethical decalogue is not. Considerations of space have to reflect NPOV, and forcing one into a subpage, wheras the other gets a huge chunk of the article, completely violates this.
Ordering one side to stand down isn't a very consensus based approach, violates NPOV, and is completely against the spirit of Wikipedia. As is hurling insults around.
--francis 22:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
There is no "imprecision" about the name "Ten Commandements". Everyone knows precisely what the term means, including the tiny number of academics who insist that there is also an "ethical decalogue". Jayjg (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
"I'm urging you and your friends to consider something".
"Nor am I insulting you as a person by referring to your manipulation of section titles as childish".
"if I had 4 sources at my disposal I could juggle anything to fit my preferred theory".
"The word "Convenant" can be applied with equal ease to all mitzvot given between Ex 21 and Ex 34."
"The fact that there are ten commandments sandwitched between the writing of the [second] tablets and this pronouncement makes for interesting ideas"
"I gather the "original" J, E and P sources are not extant?"
"Jan van Eyck it is immediately obvious that he was a Flemish painter."
"for those people who recognise the term Ten Commandments, the vast majority will say that they contain instructions like "don't kill" and "don't steal". "
"There is no "imprecision" about the name "Ten Commandements". Everyone knows precisely what the term means,"
"including the tiny number of academics who insist that there is also an "ethical decalogue"."
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house", mean?"
The text states these explicitly. JFW | T@lk 22:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The best translations I've seen have a colon after the word house or household, indicating that what follows is an amplification of what proceeds. That seems to me to be a pretty good bet for the Exodus 20 version, since the word for house/household is separated out from the rest. With the Deuteronomy 5 version, however, there's probably a greater case that it should be translated as house, meaning the actual dwelling. Here's how I'd translate the commandment:
Of course, this is just my opinion. COGDEN 23:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
In the section Written in Stone, we have:
What traditional belif is that? I can't find a source for this, and will remove it until someone can, discussing other options in its place. jnothman talk 23:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The origins section seems to be typical late 19th century / early 20th century modernist claptrap. I think it should be replaced by a NPOV section on comparison between the 10 commandments and other ancient moral codes and maxims. There are legitimate statements that can be made regarding similarities with Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Ugaritic texts as well as regarding significant differences (only one God, no graven images) without simplistic nonsense that its all borrowed from Egyptian religion. Even Judaism recognizes that commandments in common with other cultures belong to the category of mishpatim i.e. common sense laws that one typically finds in any civilization. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:34, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no mention (yet) of OT Greek texts of the decalogue. The commandments are often quoted in the NT. There is room for expansion here. 23:00, 18 November 2005 (DAW)
A comment in the introduction that this article covers the Ethical Decalogue has been removed several times. I think it's appropriate that it cover the Ethical Decalogue, but in the interest of NPOV we shouldn't pretend that's the only possibility. We've debated this ad nauseum, but it wouldn't take much to make it NPOV:
kwami 20:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Would it work to have an article called "the ten commandments issue/debate/scandal/appocoplyse" that summarizes these issues, and a sentence in the ten commandemnts article, like, "There is a difference in the scholarly understanding of the ten commandments and what is commonly accepted as such. This article deals with the commonly accepted notions, for further information, see the ten commandments _____
OR
have a subsection of this article, AT THE BOTTOM, since this article seems to be about the non-scholarly perception of the ten commandments
peace
Sethie
23:19, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Notwithstanding the various confusion between Jews - Christians - Muslims etc about the articulation of the Commandments (statements).
There is very little in the article about the founding basis of the Commandments.
The Abrahamic religions founding father Abraham was borne in Ur, during the time of Semetic rulers (Babylonian rulers). In turn the early Semetic peoples used Sumerian writing and myths (See Genesis vs Gilgamesh). From the translation of many Sumerian texts, we find the origin of much of Abrahamic religions.
The commandments have their origin in older legal systems and are simply a reproduction of pre Abrahamic codes for the legal stabilisation (coalescence) of society.
It would be very worthwhile for a learned person to expand on this topic, because if "God" wrote the laws down, "He" was only copying them from Sumerian and Babylonian laws and in some part plagerising the Sumerian Pantheon. However, it is very interesting how the article informs that, even the followers of Abraham (or Abrahamic Religions) cant agree among themselves on what their "God" commanded them to do. No disrespect intended to the followers of those religions, but a profoundly obvious fact.
Very enlightning article, many thanks for taking the trouble to write it!
On 13 December 2005, I translated Exodus 34:28 as "...and He wrote the words of the covenant upon the tablets - the ten statements." Later that day, Kwamikagami changed it to "... and he wrote...", with the comment that "'he' not normally capitalized when it refers to Moses".
We agree that 'he' is capitalized only when it refers to God. Our dispute is who the verse refers to.
I will begin by conceding that since this verse is spoken by the Narrator of the story, rather than being a quote from any of the story's characters, it can be taken as somewhat ambiguous (especially as compared to Deut. 10:4, which I'll cite below). I further concede that the first two "he"s of this verse certainly refer to Moses, and that many popular translations (including KJV, RSV, and JPS) also translate this third one as "he", uncapitalized.
Now I'd like to present the other view, that the first two "he"s of this verse refer to Moses, but that the third refers to God.
Namely, it is clear from Exodus 34:1 (God said to Moses, "Carve for yourself two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you shattered.") and from Deut. 10:3-4 (I ascended the mountain... and He wrote on the tablets..., where it is clearly Moses who is speaking) that it was God, not Moses, who wrote the words onto the second tablets.
This view is explained by many classical commentaries on Exodus 34:28, including Nahmanides, ibn Ezra, and Rashbam. Furthermore, although the Jewish Publication Society of America Version translation does use the lower-case "he", the commentary of the Soncino Press edition edited by Rabbi Abraham Cohen ([ [2]]) corrects this to "He", and the ArtScroll edition has "He" in the translation text itself.
My personal feeling, based on all the above, is that if "the covenant" and "the ten statements" of this verse refer to the famous Ten Commandments of Exodus 20:2-14, then it must refer to God, and be translated as "He"; if one insists on translating it as "he", then it cannot refer to Ex. 20, but must refer to Moses writing the covenant of Exodus 34:10-26.
-- Keeves 13:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I concede defeat. But consider this: Someday in the future, someone may come along and re-capitalize it, not realizing that the issue had already come up in the past. I think that there should be an active way of alerting people to this, without passively relying on them to look on that Talk page, and hoping that they see it if they do look. Oh, hey! I just figured out how to do that! This is what <!-- Comments --> are for! -- Keeves 16:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I hate to reopen this debate, but when I saw this I was very surprised because considering the 11 miracles associated with the 1st set of tablets, that were NOT associated with the second, I always understood that it was the hand of G•d that the bible meant to imply as the actual author/creator of the tablets. Having read your arguments, I referred to the Hebrew and found something interesting in the language of Exodus 34:28. It does not actually refer to Moses by name at any point, as does almost every other passage. In fact, it translates closer to 'And there with G•d, 40 days and 40 nights for them there was no eating nor drinking of water and written on the tablets were the things of the ten things.' In neither Modern nor Ancient Hebrew does is there a "he" "writing" anything. If one must translate it with a "he" at all, it should likely be capitalized because when the bible says something was done, without referring to the personage responsible, the intention is that it was done through divine provenance. I admit that the Ancient Hebrew is almost always ambiguous when translated, and often ambiguous even when not, but this should be re-examined. Soch 09:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Glad to see rationalrevolution linked! :) That particular article is really good. - FrancisTyers 17:20, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
America, please limited the use of the word " to believe in" here in this article and every where else in society. I am not going to enumerate its meanings here, but I often see people use it without its apprehension at best, and quite belligerently at worst, especially in interrogative form. I am no linguistic expert, but I suspect that it is as semantic as the word capital.
I like to speak of all of America when I say that we have no idea what you are talking about. You don't have to be a linguisist, but you do have to have an idea, and express it in a way that other people will understand.
Removed this part: -- Amillar 19:32, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm taking this part out:
How much time actually passed between Exodus and Deuteronomy? I doubt it was enough time for women to have any big change in their social status. I also doubt that their position in the belongings is even reflective of their social status. Show some evidence first.
Hmph! No mention of agnostics? ;-) -- Koyaanis Qatsi
If an agnostic is someone who doesn't even know what he believes himself, how can he complain that a certain expression of belief is incompatible with his? An atheist can certainly say that reference to God is contrary to his beliefs, but an agnostic can't. --LDC
Agnostics know what they believe, and what they believe is that humans are incapable of reaching any true understanding of whether there is a God. -- Koyaanis Qatsi
That "no other gods before me" is explicitly a statement of primacy not of monotheism. This is part of the actual Entry Subject, whereas the reactions of unidentified straw man "Liberal groups" is not. Wetman 14:48, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I can't speak for Christians, but Yahweh of the Bible certainly allowed for polytheism. A jealous god, jealous of what? Of not existent gods? Does that make any sense. Plus, direct ref to other gods, Baal, Moloch. And the devil sure seems to have god like powers. And don’t forget the ’sons of gods that found the daughters of men fair and had sexual intercourse with them, producing a race a giants’ (Genesis). Sounds like polytheism to me. SAK
Not all Christians make or worship images of Jesus (see iconoclast, if someone's written it). I've edited to, I hope, clarify that. I also noted that opposition to posting the commandments on public property includes some church groups.
What translation of the bible is quoted there? That has a King James version, but ID would be useful. Vicki Rosenzweig
Can anyone tell me why half of the introductory paragraph is devoted to explaining the Muslim position? It just seems very out of place, and probably ought to be moved somewhere to the bottom of the article, along with (or probably after) the Jewish, Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic positions. Ben
But does it need to be in the introductory paragraph? Certainly there's plenty of criticism in the Qur'an article, but it's all down towards the end. Ben
I wonder where the authors of the section Muslim understanding have found their information. It should be well expressed that although there is an overlap between the most important teachings of islam and those of the ten commmandments the consept of the ten commandments does not exist in islam. The part of the introduction to the article that mentions "They feature prominently in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. " should be re-edited to a higher calrity too. Hakeem.gadi 08:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this statement: Roman Catholics have criticized the Orthodox veneration of icons ? When did they, and who exactly? I'm not aware of any such criticism, and would be glad to learn of it. Wesley 22:10 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC) (shifted into this section for its logical context. Wetman 14:48, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC))
Now really, does it make sense to gloss over the conflict in interpretation between different brances of Christianity? The sentence "the Roman Catholics tradition does not emphasize iconography as strongly as the Orthodox" is simply disingenuous: the Orthodox venerate icons, and the iconoclastic controversy of the 7th (or so) century was all about that. While the RCC today finds no problem with icon veneration, it occasionally criticised the Orthodox practice in the past and it's worth mentioning that. The differences of interpretation between different sects (whether real, or merely polemical) are essential to the part of the article that addresses different interpretations of that commandment. It should be possible to cover the controversy without sacrificing NPOV. Ideally, we'd go into a bit of history of iconoclasm within Christianity, as it's been entirely based on this commandment. Ben
Excellent suggestion! Text within each section should be worded in such a way as to bring up links to further discussion of controversy round each of the Commandments.
- I am concerned that the idea that the Jehovah's witnesses are "conveniently ignoring the phallic" symbolism of the stake maay be a little POV. Perhaps it should be edited into a new sentence saying that critics on the other hand, charge that they are avoiding the phallic idea? Mishac 06:00, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Something a little peculiar: it now includes (for the Jewish interpretation) "(3) "You shall swear falsely by the name of the Lord..."" I'm no expert, but I think there's a missing negative here. Vicki Rosenzweig
Hi, everybody. Several days ago, I expanded to a great degree the section on Judaism and copyedited the part on Catholicism. For some reason, the old version keeps coming back. Now I don't care whether this is a Wiki engine error or someone returning the old version, but I ask you to respect the changes that I had introduced. Thank you. Uriyan
The article quotes from the King James Version and goes into a lot of discussion of problems in that version (but not, interestingly, the translation of "kill"). I suggest that a modern, scholarly translation of the Ten Commandments be used instead, either (New) JPS or NRSV. I would prefer the former but I don't have ready access to the text, so if there are no takers I'll use the NRSV wording instead. SCCarlson 04:31 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)
The Orthodox view of the Ten Commandments is not properly presented. The following is stated: "Catholic and Orthodox Christian understanding of the Ten Commandments Catholic and Orthodox Christians understand the Ten commandments in the following way: (Deuteronomy, RSV) ..."
Actually, Catholic and Orthodox Christians divide Ex. 20: vv 2-6 and v 17 differently. The differences between the Catholic and Orthodox divisions can be seen by comparing the following sites: 1) Summary of the Commandments from 'Catechism of the Catholic Church': http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm 2) The Ten Commandments from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7115.asp 3) The Ten Commandments from the OCA (Orthodox Church of America): http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/orthodox-faith/bible-and-church-history/the-ten-commandments.html
The following page has a nice table that compares the four different traditions of numbering: Philonic (P); Talmudic (T); Augustinian (A); and Lutheran (L). http://www.bible-researcher.com/decalogue.html
some have criticized the version as archaic (e.g. "thou shalt not" instead of "do not") There's that old Some who's responsible for so much "legend has it..." The use of "some" is a disguised passive voice which means to avoid attribution. It is a widespread Wikisin. Do complaints about the language he uses belong in the entry Geoffrey Chaucer? Wetman 14:48, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This page is quite confusing and badly needs a copy-edit. There is much repeated text and much mixing of differing views. Consider having one separate section for each religion, and putting all statements sbout religion X in the section of religon X (i.e. avoid phrases like "Xs understand this but Y read that" or "Unlike Xs, Ys understand that..."). Each section should include the corresponding text from the corresponding edition of the Bible. Jorge Stolfi 22:12, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sorry for being ignorant, but in my experience I don't think I have met anyone of any faith that worshipped the object rather than what the object represents. Even Hindus (e.g. Krishna Vaishnavites) who treat a statue of Krishna with meals and washes say that the statue is representative of Krishna.
Have I missed something? Is there any definitive proof that early middle-eastern religions did otherwise than every modern counterpart? My experience appears to severely damage the Christian interpretation of idolatory, as I doubt that there has really ever been someone who worshipped the physical reference as being an identity with the referent. ( 20040302)
Precisely. The statues of Baal were representations of THE God, not of "Baal". The name "Baal" means "Lord", or basically it can be interpreted as "Master/Highest Being". The prohibition of the second commandment is not just meant to exclude statues of gods and goddesses, but any sort of representational object of anything. However, this might only apply to 3-dimensional objects, or the Cherubim on the Ark being some kind of exception.
Anonymous users keep on pushing a version where a third set of commandments (in Exodus 34) is mentioned. Does anyone know what they're trying to say? The commandments in that chapter have very few parallels to the actual Ten Commandments. I would have found Leviticus 19 closer to the mark. JFW | T@lk 19:43, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You use the term "the actual ten commandment" to ref to those in Leviticus 19 (that's a new one on me, most people site Ex 20 or Dt 5). The bible ref's to those in EX 34 (see EX 34.28 I think) as "The Ten Commandents". So, we anonymous users are ref'ing to that which the bible ID's as "the ten commandents" as "the ten commandents". So now you have to ask yourself, 'why did I think that those in Ex 20 (or Lev 19)were "real", the ones written in stone on the moutain'. See "Ten Commandments on TV", just added at the end of this section. You are getting your "truth" from TV producers and Sunday school teachers, then pulling out of the bible only what you you "know" as "true", and not reading what is there!
SAK
==The final set of 10 commandments== The story as follows: Exodus 32 While Moses is up on the mountain the golden calf is made. Moses sees calf and breaks tablets. Severe punishment.
Exodus 33 Tabernacle placed outside of camp. Moses enters. God shows himself to Moses.
Exodus 34 God tells Moses to make new tablets and God will again put the words on them. Last or 3rd set of 10 Commandments. 34:17-1, 34:18-2, 34:19-3, 34:20-4, 34:21-5, 34:22-6, 34:23-7, 34:24-8, 34:25-9, 34:26-10. The last commandment being: do not cook a goat kid in their mother's milk. These are the set to be carried in the ark. (Since the first set were broken and now replaced.)The explanation for the difference can only be one thing. God has changed his mind. (God is allowed to do that!) Kazuba I have genuine curiosity and a passion for the obscure. I'm a grunt. Also see: Resurrection added a couple things, then scroll down to Bodily Disappearances. Bet you learned something new. 7 Oct 2004
I have added a sentence mentioning the status of Exodus 34:14-28 among many academic biblical scholars according to the documentary hypothesis. It is believed to represent a layer of the Torah that was written after the establishment of the Jerusalem Temple, a period in history where ritual concerns were beginning to take precedence over ethical obligations. The other decalogue in Exodus is assigned by them to the "P" (Priestly) source and Deuteronomy's to the "Dtr" (Deuteronomist) source. Fire Star 20:42, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is at odds with what Fire Star is saying. The DH hypothesis is that the Ex 34 commandments were more ritualistic and hence came after the "original" 10C. Disclaimer: I don't subscribe to the DH. JFW | T@lk 13:28, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Everyone has the right to disagree or agree. It's no big deal. We are trying to discuss ancient, remote, ill- documented things here. There is no way we can tell "what really happened" about 3,000 years ago. We are only human. Kazuba 13 Oct 2004
Hi Fire Star, I think you are getting off the track. In the present Exodus text do we have two different traditions which define the Ten Commandments or not? What would you tell your 10 year old grand child if you were asked this question? Then surely the next question, if you know kids, Why did we pick only one? Isn't the whole Bible the Divine Word? Kazuba 14 Oct 2004
Hi Jfdwolff, I certainly apologize if I did something wrong. I mean no harm. It is difficult for me to understand "boundaries of curiosity". Please don't use unfamiliar words like patronise. I looked it up in a dictionary and I still don't know what it means. I'm just a grunt. Kazuba 14 Oct 2004
Please explain the series of edits you have attempted to place in the article before actually re-writing the article in this way. You have inserted Yahweh instead of God at various apparently random points. You have confused the issue of the controversial "third" set of 10 commandments. The theophany you describe is contoversial at best. etc. Jayjg 19:01, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
YHWH is actually used throughout Genesis, and (according to the Jewish commentators) the "theophany" He introduced Himself to Moses by this name in Exodus 6:3. It is a non-issue. JFW | T@lk 15:54, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
How does this prove that there were more than "10 commandments"? The text records God as saying " I will inscribe upon the tablets the words that were on the first tablets". In contrast, he tells Moses to "Inscribe these words for yourself, for according to these words I have formed a covenant with you and with Israel". "These words", being the commands he had just been given. This is a completely different set of commands.--Josiah 00:08, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning were removed by User:Yoshiah ap, and I happen to agree with him here. Hopefully, pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:59, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was reading one of my Jewish Theology Books (The Book of Jewish Values) and at one point the author- one Rabbi Joseph Telushkin- states, without naming his source, that a scholar of ancient hebrew had told him the third commandment was imperfectly translated; that idiomatically, the word 'take' is closer to 'carry', and that the commandment should be interpreted not as meaning that God's name was sacred but that one must never act falsely in the name of god. As evidence, Telushkin pointed out that why else would it be that God says things like "God will not allow the one who takes His name in vain to go unpunished." God doesn't seem to think that the commandment against murder needs that extra emphasis. I can't remember where from, but Telushkin also quotes a bible passage that says that this is the one sin which will not be forgiven. Telushkin argued that falsely carrying the name of God would be the only sin which makes God the victim, by damaging his reputation.
Needless to say this makes so much sense that I cannot easily dismiss it. Have any of you heard anything remotely like this before?
- Robin Moshe
Uhm, probably not the most trusting sources :), but I think I heard it more than once, and so it is at least an, well, urban legend: I got told that the Ten Commandments are mistranslated and actually should be the Ten Promises or so. Instead of "Thou shalt not kill" it should be "Hey, lad, you'll never need to kill anymore as long as we're in this together, OK?". Well, usually it's not that informal, but I would like to know if there's any truth in it (anyone knows enough ancient hebraic to check that, or maybe give any source for this story)? -- denny vrandečić (hp) (talk) 00:10, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, "tirtzcah", means to murder. To kill a man is "laharog". This is a commandement not to murder. Obviously execution by a court, or killing your enemy during war falls outside this rule.
I'm curious as to why the text identified in the Bible as the Ten Commandments is not covered in the article. I came to this article hoping to find a discussion of why they are not followed today. I believe the phrase עשרת הדברות only occurs three times in the Old Testament, twice as an injunction to follow them, and once identifying them. The identification is in Ex34, with the ritual commandments. These are bracketed by
And these commandments easily number ten, without any fudging like the commandments enumerated in the article. Certainly for a fundamentalist, these are the terms of the Covenant one must follow? And even if not, doesn't this deserve coverage? — kwami 00:34, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Fuhgettaboudid. No original research please. JFW | T@lk 00:11, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
So provide a reference please. It is certainly not mainstream Jewish or Christian thought. JFW | T@lk 20:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
As long as you quote one autoratitive source, there is no problem. It is still a revisionist theory. Judaism still believes that there is only ONE set of ten commandments, namely the "ethical" ones (which are also very practical, see
Shabbat), and the "ritual" ones are treated as equals of the 603 others. Please do make this clear if you feel the distinction needs to be made.
JFW |
T@lk
16:59, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I have added the Jews and Judaism template to the "Jewish understanding" section of this article, to mirror the Christianity template usage in the "Christian understanding" section. It does seem to be unusual to have an article with two templates -- perhaps the better solution would be to remove both. For now, the balance seemed important, as I could not see a reason why the article should prefer Christianity over Judaism. ~CS 4 July 2005 00:45 (UTC)
I would much prefer to have the page moved to Decalogue. The present title Ten Commandments reminds me uncomfortably of the "Ten Commandments" monuments in the United States that are so steeped in the Protestant tradition. Pilatus 12:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Pilatus, to respond to your suggestion of making Decalogue a disambiguation page linking to Ten Commandments and Ritual Decalogue... It's the same problem. If you ask a Biblical scholar where the Decalogue is, he will respond that traditionally, Ex 20 and Deut 5 are understood as such. The "ritual decalogue" is called such to disambiguate from the "main decalogue".
I hope you understand my considerations. Wikipedia is a powerful knowledge tool, but when naming and organising pages it has to be borne in mind that articles have relative prominence. I think the situation as it stands is the best one. JFW | T@lk 14:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The samaritan script, while derived from Paleo-Hebrew, is quite distinct from the "original hebrew alphabet". Also doesn't saying that the Samaritan pentateuch "harmonizes many of (the Judaic Pentateuch)'s contradictions" break NPOV? -- 216.80.8.142
I don't get it: There are two pages full of musings, but not a single commandment. Is that on purpose? Do you all think your babbling is more important than the word of God? God Bless America 18:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Why on earth was this page turned into a faux disambig? 3 billion people believe that "Ten Commandments" refers to the ones in Ex 20 and Deut 5. A few hundred academics think there's a set in Ex 34 as well. Can we PLEASE undo this disastrous move and get the "ethical decalogue" back to this page title? I'm completely sickened by the lack of consensus-seeking that has gone into this move, and protest most vociferously FDuffy ( talk · contribs)'s pushing of DH POV. JFW | T@lk 12:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Articles should be designed to be useful to the average reader, not to a tiny number of academics, and we've already been over this whole issue in August. Jayjg (talk) 02:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
This NPOV-rebalancing has been up for discussion since August, and since nobody opposed the move, FDuffy was very justified in making the change. But now that everyone has awoken from their slumber, we should definitely address the issue. This article has to be more than a disambiguation page; however, we have to be careful about sacrificing the NPOV principle on the altar of "what people expect". If we have the text of the Ethical decalogue here, we needto also include the text of the Ritual decalogue, with an explanation of why there are two decalogues. For further detailed information about either particular decalogue, people can be referred to the appropriate article. Anything less than this violates the NPOV principle. COGDEN 04:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
The article already points out, in the intro no less, that scholars recognise another, distinct set of commandments. That's all we need. No more. Please. JFW | T@lk 15:32, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
We should first understand what it means for there to be two. It does not mean that any person alive considers the Ritual decalogue as the "Ten Commandments" rather, it is an opinion that when the bible text refers to a set of Ten Commandments, that it could also be referring to this other text. It is thus not being POV at all to refer primarily to the Ethical decalogue, while mentioning the scholarly contention and linking to an article on the ritual decalogue. There is plenty to discuss on the conventional "Ten Commandments" and it is foolish to make this merely a disambiguation page when, like some disambiguations, the vast majority would consider one interpretation as primary. An article on the Ten Commandments or Decalogue that considers the two of equal relevance for the article is not being encyclopaedic, but overly-scholarly. -- jnothman talk 12:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Kwami, to force an "uncommon" usage onto a page is a form of POV, of which I hold yourself and Francis guilty. Judaism and Christianity agree that there are ten and that they are in Ex 20 and Deut 5. I think that by pushing the Ritual Decalogue any further than it is now, you would be violating NPOV.
I also hotly disagree with COGDEN. This is the same mistake as Francis and Kwami have been making. Just because scholars recognise two sets of commandments does not make them equivalent encyclopedically. I gave the Berlin example above. Will any of you please tell me why this situation is any different? JFW | T@lk 21:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Please re-read WP:NPOV.
Undue Weight: Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. To give such undue weight to the lesser held view may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties.
The vast majority of "concerned parties" consider the "Ten Commandments" to be, well, the Ten Commandments, and not the "Ethical decalogue" that a small number of biblical critics have postulated. Attempts to change the focus of this page will place undue weight on a minority opinion. Jayjg (talk) 02:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
We're not talking here about an extreme minority or fringe opinion. The idea that there are two sets of "ten commandments" is a mainstream opinion, probably the predominant opinion in theological circles. It's only in pop religion where the one set only view reigns. The concerns about "undue weight" were never meant to suppress a mainstream but unpopular opinion. Otherwise, the History of Mesopotamia article would begin with a long description of the Garden of Eden and the Deluge, with a footnote to a sub-article about paleolithic people in the Middle East. Look at the polls: that's what most Americans believe, so we shoudldn't give undue weight to the views of a few elite scholars who don't go with the majority, right? COGDEN 04:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Whatever happened to Francis? His opinion would be appreciated in this interesting discussion that he sparked. Kwami: do you think the 3 billion people are wrong, then, or just unenlightened?
COGDEN: you seem to completely misunderstand the passage from WP:NPOV quoted by Jayjg above. The "ritual decalogue" is a fringe theory. Face it. The DH is the plaything of academicians and has not found much of an audience with the general public, apart perhaps from some particularly imaginative rubbish from Wellhausen, such as the two Creation narratives. I have already outlined, above, the "principle of least astonishment" as applied to this article. When a reader looks for the Ten Commandments he will expect something on the ones listed in Ex 20 and Deut 5. It is interesting that some theorists think there is also another set as listed in Ex 34, but without a modifier "Ten Commandments" refers to the ones we all know.
The discussion is becoming rather circular. I suggest we leave things in their present state, and carry on with whatever we are good at. JFW | T@lk 22:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
The ritual decalogue is not a fringe theory. 90% of academics, AND the vatican does not constitute the fringe, the 10% that disagree are the fringe.
The only thing which is, in fact, a matter of debate, is why it is Exodus 34 that has the wording "the ten commandments" and not Exodus 20, and what significance the list of commands at Exodus 34 may or may not have had.
Quite why the fact that
is in anyway controversial, is something I do not understand. --francis 21:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I am pleased Francis has finally come to the aid of his move. I'm disappointed that he was childish enough to change the title of this discussion [1].
The section in Ex 34, which I read quite closely today with the commentary of S.R. Hirsch, does not in any way state that the mitzvoth given between the hewing of the second set of tables and the sentence "these are the words of the convenant" refer to the Ten Commandments. The flow of the text is also strange: what was Moses doing on the mountain anyway? Why was he hewing a second set of tablets and what had been on the first ones? In the absence of a ban on idolatry, who cared about the Golden Calf anyway?
It's all injunction, speculation and cleverness for the sake of nothing. The theory raises more issues than it solves, and this is why: until Goethe, nobody had interpreted those few lines in Ex 34 as being "the Ten Commandments", and to speculate that they were was an innovation not supported by a shred of historical evidence.
Now on to the matter of naming this page. Francis counters that few people know about the Ten Commandments anyway. As a student of theology he should know better. It is one of those concepts that has forcefully found its way into Western Culture, and whole books of popular literature are woven around their subject matter. Ask any student with a general education. I suspect that of the people who have heard about the Ten Commandments (a subset of the world's population), about 0.1% will have heard about the set in Ex 34. That's frighteningly small, and I suspect Francis already knew this.
I am all for naming articles according to their academic nomenclature. I was the admin who moved heart attack to myocardial infarction because the latter is the only correct term for that disease entity. However, one cannot ignore the most common use of a term, even amongst academicians.
I urge Francis, COGDEN and all concerned to rest this battle. The "ritual decalogue" is exactly where it should be: mentioned prominently in the article intro, with its own page for considerations of space. I would have supported a seperate paragraph in this article as well, but the present solution is perfect. JFW | T@lk 22:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
The section in Ex 34, which I read quite closely today with the commentaries of Friedmann, Noth, the Jewish Encyclopedia, and the brief comments from Israel Finkelstein, clearly implies that the mitzvoth given between the hewing of the second set of tables and the sentence "these are the words of the convenant" refer to the Ten Commandments, as described only at Exodus 34:28. The fact that these words are 14 chapters away from the commandments of Exodus 20, but right next to the mitzvoth of Exodus 34 is a huge clue. Its like having a map with a label saying "France" over the country containing Calais, and then claiming that France is the country on the map that contains Bombay.
The flow of the text is indeed also strange. The documentary hypothesis explains this quite neatly.
To speculate that Exodus 34 were the Ten Commandments is a process supported by over 90% of academics in the field of Biblical Criticism. That should tell you something about how much such speculation is respected academically.
"Francis counters that few people know about the Ten Commandments anyway" No I don't. I do however counter that few people know all the academic information about the Ten Commandments. While it is one of those concepts that has forcefully found its way into Western Culture, and whole books of popular literature are woven around the subject matter, it is nethertheless the case that few of these indicate any academic knowledge of the subject whatsoever, many inaccurately using "thou shalt not kill" rather than "thou shalt not murder", for example. Ask any student with a general education.
While only about 0.1% of the world will have heard about the set in Exodus 34, even less have heard about Jan van Eyck. That doesn't mean his skill is not substantially noteworthy, or worthy of being a major component in discussion of certain aspects of art. The number of American Jews who are also Haredi, and dispute any critical scholarship is only about 0.1% of the population of the world, and that's frighteningly small, and I already knew this.
The term is deliberately avoided by academics in the subject area, precisely because it is ambiguous, only mentioning the term when they are going to mention both Exodus 34 and Exodus 20.
The ritual decalogue is exactly where it should be. The ethical decalogue is not. Considerations of space have to reflect NPOV, and forcing one into a subpage, wheras the other gets a huge chunk of the article, completely violates this.
Ordering one side to stand down isn't a very consensus based approach, violates NPOV, and is completely against the spirit of Wikipedia. As is hurling insults around.
--francis 22:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
There is no "imprecision" about the name "Ten Commandements". Everyone knows precisely what the term means, including the tiny number of academics who insist that there is also an "ethical decalogue". Jayjg (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
"I'm urging you and your friends to consider something".
"Nor am I insulting you as a person by referring to your manipulation of section titles as childish".
"if I had 4 sources at my disposal I could juggle anything to fit my preferred theory".
"The word "Convenant" can be applied with equal ease to all mitzvot given between Ex 21 and Ex 34."
"The fact that there are ten commandments sandwitched between the writing of the [second] tablets and this pronouncement makes for interesting ideas"
"I gather the "original" J, E and P sources are not extant?"
"Jan van Eyck it is immediately obvious that he was a Flemish painter."
"for those people who recognise the term Ten Commandments, the vast majority will say that they contain instructions like "don't kill" and "don't steal". "
"There is no "imprecision" about the name "Ten Commandements". Everyone knows precisely what the term means,"
"including the tiny number of academics who insist that there is also an "ethical decalogue"."
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house", mean?"
The text states these explicitly. JFW | T@lk 22:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The best translations I've seen have a colon after the word house or household, indicating that what follows is an amplification of what proceeds. That seems to me to be a pretty good bet for the Exodus 20 version, since the word for house/household is separated out from the rest. With the Deuteronomy 5 version, however, there's probably a greater case that it should be translated as house, meaning the actual dwelling. Here's how I'd translate the commandment:
Of course, this is just my opinion. COGDEN 23:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
In the section Written in Stone, we have:
What traditional belif is that? I can't find a source for this, and will remove it until someone can, discussing other options in its place. jnothman talk 23:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The origins section seems to be typical late 19th century / early 20th century modernist claptrap. I think it should be replaced by a NPOV section on comparison between the 10 commandments and other ancient moral codes and maxims. There are legitimate statements that can be made regarding similarities with Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Ugaritic texts as well as regarding significant differences (only one God, no graven images) without simplistic nonsense that its all borrowed from Egyptian religion. Even Judaism recognizes that commandments in common with other cultures belong to the category of mishpatim i.e. common sense laws that one typically finds in any civilization. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:34, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no mention (yet) of OT Greek texts of the decalogue. The commandments are often quoted in the NT. There is room for expansion here. 23:00, 18 November 2005 (DAW)
A comment in the introduction that this article covers the Ethical Decalogue has been removed several times. I think it's appropriate that it cover the Ethical Decalogue, but in the interest of NPOV we shouldn't pretend that's the only possibility. We've debated this ad nauseum, but it wouldn't take much to make it NPOV:
kwami 20:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Would it work to have an article called "the ten commandments issue/debate/scandal/appocoplyse" that summarizes these issues, and a sentence in the ten commandemnts article, like, "There is a difference in the scholarly understanding of the ten commandments and what is commonly accepted as such. This article deals with the commonly accepted notions, for further information, see the ten commandments _____
OR
have a subsection of this article, AT THE BOTTOM, since this article seems to be about the non-scholarly perception of the ten commandments
peace
Sethie
23:19, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Notwithstanding the various confusion between Jews - Christians - Muslims etc about the articulation of the Commandments (statements).
There is very little in the article about the founding basis of the Commandments.
The Abrahamic religions founding father Abraham was borne in Ur, during the time of Semetic rulers (Babylonian rulers). In turn the early Semetic peoples used Sumerian writing and myths (See Genesis vs Gilgamesh). From the translation of many Sumerian texts, we find the origin of much of Abrahamic religions.
The commandments have their origin in older legal systems and are simply a reproduction of pre Abrahamic codes for the legal stabilisation (coalescence) of society.
It would be very worthwhile for a learned person to expand on this topic, because if "God" wrote the laws down, "He" was only copying them from Sumerian and Babylonian laws and in some part plagerising the Sumerian Pantheon. However, it is very interesting how the article informs that, even the followers of Abraham (or Abrahamic Religions) cant agree among themselves on what their "God" commanded them to do. No disrespect intended to the followers of those religions, but a profoundly obvious fact.
Very enlightning article, many thanks for taking the trouble to write it!
On 13 December 2005, I translated Exodus 34:28 as "...and He wrote the words of the covenant upon the tablets - the ten statements." Later that day, Kwamikagami changed it to "... and he wrote...", with the comment that "'he' not normally capitalized when it refers to Moses".
We agree that 'he' is capitalized only when it refers to God. Our dispute is who the verse refers to.
I will begin by conceding that since this verse is spoken by the Narrator of the story, rather than being a quote from any of the story's characters, it can be taken as somewhat ambiguous (especially as compared to Deut. 10:4, which I'll cite below). I further concede that the first two "he"s of this verse certainly refer to Moses, and that many popular translations (including KJV, RSV, and JPS) also translate this third one as "he", uncapitalized.
Now I'd like to present the other view, that the first two "he"s of this verse refer to Moses, but that the third refers to God.
Namely, it is clear from Exodus 34:1 (God said to Moses, "Carve for yourself two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you shattered.") and from Deut. 10:3-4 (I ascended the mountain... and He wrote on the tablets..., where it is clearly Moses who is speaking) that it was God, not Moses, who wrote the words onto the second tablets.
This view is explained by many classical commentaries on Exodus 34:28, including Nahmanides, ibn Ezra, and Rashbam. Furthermore, although the Jewish Publication Society of America Version translation does use the lower-case "he", the commentary of the Soncino Press edition edited by Rabbi Abraham Cohen ([ [2]]) corrects this to "He", and the ArtScroll edition has "He" in the translation text itself.
My personal feeling, based on all the above, is that if "the covenant" and "the ten statements" of this verse refer to the famous Ten Commandments of Exodus 20:2-14, then it must refer to God, and be translated as "He"; if one insists on translating it as "he", then it cannot refer to Ex. 20, but must refer to Moses writing the covenant of Exodus 34:10-26.
-- Keeves 13:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I concede defeat. But consider this: Someday in the future, someone may come along and re-capitalize it, not realizing that the issue had already come up in the past. I think that there should be an active way of alerting people to this, without passively relying on them to look on that Talk page, and hoping that they see it if they do look. Oh, hey! I just figured out how to do that! This is what <!-- Comments --> are for! -- Keeves 16:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I hate to reopen this debate, but when I saw this I was very surprised because considering the 11 miracles associated with the 1st set of tablets, that were NOT associated with the second, I always understood that it was the hand of G•d that the bible meant to imply as the actual author/creator of the tablets. Having read your arguments, I referred to the Hebrew and found something interesting in the language of Exodus 34:28. It does not actually refer to Moses by name at any point, as does almost every other passage. In fact, it translates closer to 'And there with G•d, 40 days and 40 nights for them there was no eating nor drinking of water and written on the tablets were the things of the ten things.' In neither Modern nor Ancient Hebrew does is there a "he" "writing" anything. If one must translate it with a "he" at all, it should likely be capitalized because when the bible says something was done, without referring to the personage responsible, the intention is that it was done through divine provenance. I admit that the Ancient Hebrew is almost always ambiguous when translated, and often ambiguous even when not, but this should be re-examined. Soch 09:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Glad to see rationalrevolution linked! :) That particular article is really good. - FrancisTyers 17:20, 23 December 2005 (UTC)