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The sign for Tall al-Hammam in Jordan (Arabic) can be found here https://www.facebook.com/DigSodom/photos/10159569637979778. The site is sometimes spelled as Tell el-Hammam (Hebrew). Both are used variously in publications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deg777 ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
It should be either both with a, or both with e. Traditionally it's tell, el-. The Jordanian Department of Antiquities has started around 2002 to send directives with lists of names with a general tendency towards tall, al-, etc. (see Jarash instead of Jerash), and some PC-obsessed Anglos are hurrying to conform, although the lists were constantly a-changin' for years, and the typical mess. "Normal ppl" stick to how they always wrote the names, but that's their problem, Jordan is emancipating on the spelling front, no matter the losses. Jordan being a traditional democracy, people who have went through school lately are marching to the tune of al-tall. Poor Lawrence of Arabiyah, he once explained (was it in his introduction to the Seven Pillars?) that he purposely spelled even the same, frequently occurring names in different ways, being inconsistent for a reason, because academic squabbles about how to reproduce in Latin alphabet the sounds of spoken Arabic, with its regional differences (I don't remember if he added: and disregard for vowels, which seems to be the lot of Semitic languages), is just one thing: ridiculous. Old school British humour, lost among today's PC soldiers. Here we have Tell el-Hammam (Nelson Glueck, 1930s; David Kennedy and APAAME, probably since the 70s), Tell al-Hammam (Kay Prag, 1990s), now Tall el-Hammam (Collins, 2000s). That's what I call progress. Long live anticolonialism! Down with Lawrence! Oh, sorry, he's OK... Or mostly. Whatever. The Levant is alive and kicking - probably itself in the hard-to-spell parts. Arminden ( talk) 08:11, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
You claim that the dates for "the Roman, Byzantine, and Umayyad periods (165 BC[dubious – discuss]–AD 750)." I am the field supervisor of the Roman, Byzantine and Islamic excavation at Tall el-Hammam from 2005-2017 and can say based on published parallels of the pottery that they date from 1st cent. BC-10th cent. AD). Our finds have been published both in Graves, David E., and D. Scott Stripling. ‘Examination of the Location for the Ancient City of Livias’. Levant 43, no. 2 (August 2011): 178–200 and in Graves, David E., A Preliminary Report on the Tall al-Hammam Excavation Project: Roman, Byzantine, and Islamic Remains: Field LR (2005–2014). Edited by Steven Collins, Gary Byers and D. Scott Stripling. 2021. Both are peer reviewed. My PhD is from the University of Aberdeen, Scotland under I. Howard Marshall not Dr. Collins. [unsigned, by all appearance posted by Deg777. Hi, would you please confirm? Thanks.]
The quoted book (Steven Collins & al., An Introduction..., Eisenbrauns 2015) is not accessible online. The quote seems very fishy to me:
My conclusion: not a trustworthy quote. Prove me wrong. EAMENA source more concise, to the point - and accessible online! The old quote has some additional, potentially useful info, that's my main reason for leaving it as is, but now it's confusing for the user who has to choose betw. 2 partially contradictory quotations. Arminden ( talk) 08:51, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Great. Still, mine were two concrete, maybe narrow issues: are there any LBA sherds at the site? No architectural remains, OK, but what about other findings? Ms Banks mentions LBA too, but she's writing on a website about a far larger topic and might have been slightly careless. Or not. Second, the years for each period. That's my beef for now. Apart from that, of course, Christian Bible apoligists have a strong agenda and need to be taken with great caution. But they got the digging license, so... we're stuck with them, and the site is indeed fascinating and not properly researched. Maybe you can find some opinion by Finkelstein, Ussishkin and the other usual suspects of the minimalist camp. Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 11:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Experts Say ‘Pseudoarchaelogists’ Are Threatening the Field With Pet Theories About the Ancient World Engineered to Go Viral The "viral" bit is about the alleged discovery of Sodom and the alleged airburst over Tell el-Hammam. Doug Weller talk 16:06, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
In the chapter "Research history" the initiator of the archaeological investigations Steven Collins is labled as a young earth creationist, but no source is provided for this claim. I've spent some hours trying to see if I could find a reliable source (or even an unreliable source) for such a statement, but nothing of that kind turned up for me (besides Wikipedia itself) (on the other hand neither did I find any sources in my search that dwelled upon Collins' keen interest in evolution and Darwin in his youth). Since Steven Collins is very much alive such personal claim can only be presented in an article here on Wikipedia if it is supported by a reliable source to the claim. Oleryhlolsson ( talk) 01:53, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Paper dated May 2023. [3] Doug Weller talk 14:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
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![]() | The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
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autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
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The sign for Tall al-Hammam in Jordan (Arabic) can be found here https://www.facebook.com/DigSodom/photos/10159569637979778. The site is sometimes spelled as Tell el-Hammam (Hebrew). Both are used variously in publications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deg777 ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
It should be either both with a, or both with e. Traditionally it's tell, el-. The Jordanian Department of Antiquities has started around 2002 to send directives with lists of names with a general tendency towards tall, al-, etc. (see Jarash instead of Jerash), and some PC-obsessed Anglos are hurrying to conform, although the lists were constantly a-changin' for years, and the typical mess. "Normal ppl" stick to how they always wrote the names, but that's their problem, Jordan is emancipating on the spelling front, no matter the losses. Jordan being a traditional democracy, people who have went through school lately are marching to the tune of al-tall. Poor Lawrence of Arabiyah, he once explained (was it in his introduction to the Seven Pillars?) that he purposely spelled even the same, frequently occurring names in different ways, being inconsistent for a reason, because academic squabbles about how to reproduce in Latin alphabet the sounds of spoken Arabic, with its regional differences (I don't remember if he added: and disregard for vowels, which seems to be the lot of Semitic languages), is just one thing: ridiculous. Old school British humour, lost among today's PC soldiers. Here we have Tell el-Hammam (Nelson Glueck, 1930s; David Kennedy and APAAME, probably since the 70s), Tell al-Hammam (Kay Prag, 1990s), now Tall el-Hammam (Collins, 2000s). That's what I call progress. Long live anticolonialism! Down with Lawrence! Oh, sorry, he's OK... Or mostly. Whatever. The Levant is alive and kicking - probably itself in the hard-to-spell parts. Arminden ( talk) 08:11, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
You claim that the dates for "the Roman, Byzantine, and Umayyad periods (165 BC[dubious – discuss]–AD 750)." I am the field supervisor of the Roman, Byzantine and Islamic excavation at Tall el-Hammam from 2005-2017 and can say based on published parallels of the pottery that they date from 1st cent. BC-10th cent. AD). Our finds have been published both in Graves, David E., and D. Scott Stripling. ‘Examination of the Location for the Ancient City of Livias’. Levant 43, no. 2 (August 2011): 178–200 and in Graves, David E., A Preliminary Report on the Tall al-Hammam Excavation Project: Roman, Byzantine, and Islamic Remains: Field LR (2005–2014). Edited by Steven Collins, Gary Byers and D. Scott Stripling. 2021. Both are peer reviewed. My PhD is from the University of Aberdeen, Scotland under I. Howard Marshall not Dr. Collins. [unsigned, by all appearance posted by Deg777. Hi, would you please confirm? Thanks.]
The quoted book (Steven Collins & al., An Introduction..., Eisenbrauns 2015) is not accessible online. The quote seems very fishy to me:
My conclusion: not a trustworthy quote. Prove me wrong. EAMENA source more concise, to the point - and accessible online! The old quote has some additional, potentially useful info, that's my main reason for leaving it as is, but now it's confusing for the user who has to choose betw. 2 partially contradictory quotations. Arminden ( talk) 08:51, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Great. Still, mine were two concrete, maybe narrow issues: are there any LBA sherds at the site? No architectural remains, OK, but what about other findings? Ms Banks mentions LBA too, but she's writing on a website about a far larger topic and might have been slightly careless. Or not. Second, the years for each period. That's my beef for now. Apart from that, of course, Christian Bible apoligists have a strong agenda and need to be taken with great caution. But they got the digging license, so... we're stuck with them, and the site is indeed fascinating and not properly researched. Maybe you can find some opinion by Finkelstein, Ussishkin and the other usual suspects of the minimalist camp. Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 11:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Experts Say ‘Pseudoarchaelogists’ Are Threatening the Field With Pet Theories About the Ancient World Engineered to Go Viral The "viral" bit is about the alleged discovery of Sodom and the alleged airburst over Tell el-Hammam. Doug Weller talk 16:06, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
In the chapter "Research history" the initiator of the archaeological investigations Steven Collins is labled as a young earth creationist, but no source is provided for this claim. I've spent some hours trying to see if I could find a reliable source (or even an unreliable source) for such a statement, but nothing of that kind turned up for me (besides Wikipedia itself) (on the other hand neither did I find any sources in my search that dwelled upon Collins' keen interest in evolution and Darwin in his youth). Since Steven Collins is very much alive such personal claim can only be presented in an article here on Wikipedia if it is supported by a reliable source to the claim. Oleryhlolsson ( talk) 01:53, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Paper dated May 2023. [3] Doug Weller talk 14:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)