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Yamara 08:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Passed.
Urve (
talk) 07:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Will review. My first thought is that I'm surprised that the Greek rendering of her name, Τελέσιλλα, is not here; Robbins gives it and the alternative transliteration Telésilla.
Urve (
talk) 09:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for your comments! I've replied inline to them. I have added the Greek spelling of Telesilla
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult, below I am just wondering what the state of scholarship is. Maybe my comments come off as asking for things that aren't required by
WP:GA?, but I'm seeing the sources I listed below as part of the broadness criterion - you can't know if something is broad without taking a look at scholarship and seeing if there are things that aren't included here. So all I'm really asking for your feedback on whether it's something that should be included, and if not, why we should omit it - it's not a demand to include these things, some of which (like the Apollo-Sun connection) may be inconsequential to this poet's biography. And of course, I might be totally off base with everything... this is my first look into Greek poetry on WP, so be gentle ;)
Urve (
talk) 22:14, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Please do be difficult – this is really useful feedback!
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Urve: I think I've now addressed all of your comments :)
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 19:38, 24 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Well-written:
later
Verifiable, broad, neutral:
Looking through some sources, I am genuinely unsure whether we can say "the story was probably not true". This chapter – Martinez Morales, Jennifer (2019). "Women on the Walls? The Role and Impact of Women in Classical Greek Sieges". In Armstrong, Jeremy; Trundle, Matthew (eds.). Brill's Companion to Sieges in the Ancient Mediterranean. Brill's Companions to Classical Studies. Brill.
ISBN978-90-04-41374-0. – has a much less authoritative stance on the matter, saying that while "Many modern scholars are somewhat sceptical" of the Pausanian account, "there is nothing ... to suggest this is an implausible story" because of other attested accounts of women's involvement in Greek sieges, and because women would have been left behind to defend.
I could add a mention of Martinez Morales' position, but I think "the story was probably not true" is a fair description of current scholarship; Davies' commentary in LAFGP 2021 says that Telesilla's involvement at Sepeia is "usually regarded as a later invention", and he doesn't mention any scholars who disagree. And even Martinez Morales' extreme position only goes so far as saying that "with the exception of Telesilla's leadership role" there is nothing unusual about the story and that other than the fact that the one nearly contemporary source about the battle doesn't mention it it's not inherently implausible.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Davies' writing on Telesilla in LAFGP is not without criticism. "As regards the method used for Telesilla, both the bibliography (outdated) and the contextualisation of the references to her dating are poor" says D'Alfonso, Francesca (2021). "A Commentary on Greek Lyric Fragments". Classical Review. 71 (2): 291–292.
doi:
10.1017/S0009840X21001293. If its bibliography is outdated, can we rely on it? Not trying to be difficult - I really don't know the answer to this and am genuinely asking. I don't research much classical antiquity, but what I do look at (biblical apocrypha), some subjects can change rapidly in scholarly understanding within a few years, and others are essentially moribund for centuries.
There is a collection of writings that treat the story as historical, albeit an old one (and scholarship has doubtless changed since then?), at fn 28 of Leahy, D. M. (1958).
"The Spartan Defeat at Orchomenus". Phoenix. 12 (4): 141–165.
I can't read Italian and can't find it, so I don't know whether this book is saying something different than what the article is (our statement of "probably invented" makes me think it is?). But according to a review at
doi:
10.1017/S0009840X14000444, the book E. Franchi; G. Proietti, eds. (2012). Forme della memoria e dinamiche identitarie nell'antichità greco-romana. Università degli Studi di Trento.
ISBN978-88-8443-447-0. suggests a mapping rather than invention.
Hmm, I shall have to do some thinking. Along with Martinez Morales, Tomlinson (1972) Argos and the Argolid is on team the story of the women defending Argos is not impossible, though Telesilla's role is likely exaggerated, and Valdes Guia ("La batalla de Sepea y las Hybristika"), as far as I can make out with my very limited Spanish, also talks about a "historical nucleus" to the story, so possibly that's a sufficiently mainstream viewpoint to merit some mention in the article. I don't have access to Franchi's chapter on Telesilla from Forme della memoria, and my Italian is basically nonexistent, but the English-language abstract
here seems to be broadly in agreement with the article's current viewpoint (and
this 2022 article also seems to broadly agree). I will try to write up some more nuance on this at the weekend.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Martinez Morales discusses a "statue of Telesilla" - are you familiar with it? Can any more info be added? Thorsen, Thea Selliaas (2012). "Sappho, Corinna and Colleagues in Ancient Rome. Tatian's Catalogue of Statues (Oratio ad Graecos 33-4) Reconsidered". Mnemosyne. 65: 695–715. says it was made by Niceratus.
The statue of Telesilla by Niceratus is already mentioned in the article. We could maybe add that Tatian saw the statue in Rome, but other than that I don't think anything else is known about it.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I thought I deleted this comment - not sure what was actually deleted! Thank you.
Martinez Morales says Argos had no men; so should it be "the old men, slaves, and women of the city"? Or possibly "the women of the city, including the old and the enslaved"? Martinez Morales also says the Pausanian story describes her only giving arms to those "'in their prime' or 'most vigorous'". And Martinez Morales gives more details on what we mean by "defend it until the Spartans withdrew" - "they surrounded the walls (τείχη) with arms"
On that point, Scott also says it was women in the city because the men were gone. (Appendix 6, n 4)
Rayor explicitly says old men. Plant says "all those left in the city, including the women", which implies some men. Pausanias says that Telesilla sent "those who were too young or too old to bear arms"; as no women served in the Argive army regardless of their age we can presume that he means men who were too young or old to bear arms. (And Scott, when he discusses the Telesilla story in depth, also says "she manned the walls with the household servants, the old men, the youths, and the women" [App.15 §7])
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I trust you on this - out of my own curiosity I'll keep reading, though, and report back if I have anything to say :)
More information on her Apollo writings (relating him to the Sun as Φιληλιάς, an early identification with some debate) can be found in Bilić, Tomislav (2021). "Early Identifications of Apollo with the Physical Sun in Ancient Greece: Tradition and Interpretation". Mnemosyne. 74: 709–736.
Interesting article, but I don't think super important for a discussion of Telesilla.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 19:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)reply
A description of the stele can be found in Pretzler, Maria (2017). "Pausanias". In Koen De Temmerman; Evert van Emde Boas (eds.). Characterization in Ancient Greek Literature. Ancient Greek Narrative. Brill.
ISBN978-90-04-35631-3.
I have added a brief description of the stele.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks, this is what my comment about the statue was supposed to be :)
more later
I found an interesting discussion on the purpose of some of Telesilla's writing - not only women's lives, but placing women in choral ceremonies. Ingalls, Wayne B. (2000).
"Ritual Performance as Training for Daughters in Archaic Greece". Phoenix. 54 (1/2): 1–20.
Thanks - not much new in this, but I've added a little more on the role of choruses of young girls
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Wikipedia's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our
project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our
talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women writers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
women writers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women writersWikipedia:WikiProject Women writersTemplate:WikiProject Women writersWomen writers articles
Want to help write or improve biographies? Check out
WikiProject Biography Tips for writing better articles. --
Yamara 08:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Passed.
Urve (
talk) 07:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Will review. My first thought is that I'm surprised that the Greek rendering of her name, Τελέσιλλα, is not here; Robbins gives it and the alternative transliteration Telésilla.
Urve (
talk) 09:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for your comments! I've replied inline to them. I have added the Greek spelling of Telesilla
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult, below I am just wondering what the state of scholarship is. Maybe my comments come off as asking for things that aren't required by
WP:GA?, but I'm seeing the sources I listed below as part of the broadness criterion - you can't know if something is broad without taking a look at scholarship and seeing if there are things that aren't included here. So all I'm really asking for your feedback on whether it's something that should be included, and if not, why we should omit it - it's not a demand to include these things, some of which (like the Apollo-Sun connection) may be inconsequential to this poet's biography. And of course, I might be totally off base with everything... this is my first look into Greek poetry on WP, so be gentle ;)
Urve (
talk) 22:14, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Please do be difficult – this is really useful feedback!
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Urve: I think I've now addressed all of your comments :)
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 19:38, 24 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Well-written:
later
Verifiable, broad, neutral:
Looking through some sources, I am genuinely unsure whether we can say "the story was probably not true". This chapter – Martinez Morales, Jennifer (2019). "Women on the Walls? The Role and Impact of Women in Classical Greek Sieges". In Armstrong, Jeremy; Trundle, Matthew (eds.). Brill's Companion to Sieges in the Ancient Mediterranean. Brill's Companions to Classical Studies. Brill.
ISBN978-90-04-41374-0. – has a much less authoritative stance on the matter, saying that while "Many modern scholars are somewhat sceptical" of the Pausanian account, "there is nothing ... to suggest this is an implausible story" because of other attested accounts of women's involvement in Greek sieges, and because women would have been left behind to defend.
I could add a mention of Martinez Morales' position, but I think "the story was probably not true" is a fair description of current scholarship; Davies' commentary in LAFGP 2021 says that Telesilla's involvement at Sepeia is "usually regarded as a later invention", and he doesn't mention any scholars who disagree. And even Martinez Morales' extreme position only goes so far as saying that "with the exception of Telesilla's leadership role" there is nothing unusual about the story and that other than the fact that the one nearly contemporary source about the battle doesn't mention it it's not inherently implausible.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Davies' writing on Telesilla in LAFGP is not without criticism. "As regards the method used for Telesilla, both the bibliography (outdated) and the contextualisation of the references to her dating are poor" says D'Alfonso, Francesca (2021). "A Commentary on Greek Lyric Fragments". Classical Review. 71 (2): 291–292.
doi:
10.1017/S0009840X21001293. If its bibliography is outdated, can we rely on it? Not trying to be difficult - I really don't know the answer to this and am genuinely asking. I don't research much classical antiquity, but what I do look at (biblical apocrypha), some subjects can change rapidly in scholarly understanding within a few years, and others are essentially moribund for centuries.
There is a collection of writings that treat the story as historical, albeit an old one (and scholarship has doubtless changed since then?), at fn 28 of Leahy, D. M. (1958).
"The Spartan Defeat at Orchomenus". Phoenix. 12 (4): 141–165.
I can't read Italian and can't find it, so I don't know whether this book is saying something different than what the article is (our statement of "probably invented" makes me think it is?). But according to a review at
doi:
10.1017/S0009840X14000444, the book E. Franchi; G. Proietti, eds. (2012). Forme della memoria e dinamiche identitarie nell'antichità greco-romana. Università degli Studi di Trento.
ISBN978-88-8443-447-0. suggests a mapping rather than invention.
Hmm, I shall have to do some thinking. Along with Martinez Morales, Tomlinson (1972) Argos and the Argolid is on team the story of the women defending Argos is not impossible, though Telesilla's role is likely exaggerated, and Valdes Guia ("La batalla de Sepea y las Hybristika"), as far as I can make out with my very limited Spanish, also talks about a "historical nucleus" to the story, so possibly that's a sufficiently mainstream viewpoint to merit some mention in the article. I don't have access to Franchi's chapter on Telesilla from Forme della memoria, and my Italian is basically nonexistent, but the English-language abstract
here seems to be broadly in agreement with the article's current viewpoint (and
this 2022 article also seems to broadly agree). I will try to write up some more nuance on this at the weekend.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Martinez Morales discusses a "statue of Telesilla" - are you familiar with it? Can any more info be added? Thorsen, Thea Selliaas (2012). "Sappho, Corinna and Colleagues in Ancient Rome. Tatian's Catalogue of Statues (Oratio ad Graecos 33-4) Reconsidered". Mnemosyne. 65: 695–715. says it was made by Niceratus.
The statue of Telesilla by Niceratus is already mentioned in the article. We could maybe add that Tatian saw the statue in Rome, but other than that I don't think anything else is known about it.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I thought I deleted this comment - not sure what was actually deleted! Thank you.
Martinez Morales says Argos had no men; so should it be "the old men, slaves, and women of the city"? Or possibly "the women of the city, including the old and the enslaved"? Martinez Morales also says the Pausanian story describes her only giving arms to those "'in their prime' or 'most vigorous'". And Martinez Morales gives more details on what we mean by "defend it until the Spartans withdrew" - "they surrounded the walls (τείχη) with arms"
On that point, Scott also says it was women in the city because the men were gone. (Appendix 6, n 4)
Rayor explicitly says old men. Plant says "all those left in the city, including the women", which implies some men. Pausanias says that Telesilla sent "those who were too young or too old to bear arms"; as no women served in the Argive army regardless of their age we can presume that he means men who were too young or old to bear arms. (And Scott, when he discusses the Telesilla story in depth, also says "she manned the walls with the household servants, the old men, the youths, and the women" [App.15 §7])
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I trust you on this - out of my own curiosity I'll keep reading, though, and report back if I have anything to say :)
More information on her Apollo writings (relating him to the Sun as Φιληλιάς, an early identification with some debate) can be found in Bilić, Tomislav (2021). "Early Identifications of Apollo with the Physical Sun in Ancient Greece: Tradition and Interpretation". Mnemosyne. 74: 709–736.
Interesting article, but I don't think super important for a discussion of Telesilla.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 19:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)reply
A description of the stele can be found in Pretzler, Maria (2017). "Pausanias". In Koen De Temmerman; Evert van Emde Boas (eds.). Characterization in Ancient Greek Literature. Ancient Greek Narrative. Brill.
ISBN978-90-04-35631-3.
I have added a brief description of the stele.
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks, this is what my comment about the statue was supposed to be :)
more later
I found an interesting discussion on the purpose of some of Telesilla's writing - not only women's lives, but placing women in choral ceremonies. Ingalls, Wayne B. (2000).
"Ritual Performance as Training for Daughters in Archaic Greece". Phoenix. 54 (1/2): 1–20.
Thanks - not much new in this, but I've added a little more on the role of choruses of young girls
Caeciliusinhorto (
talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.