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This is just a general comment to say that the NPOV work has been excellent over the last couple of days. Let's hope it keeps up for a good article. Zz414 23:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll post the full transcript of the interview (as presented in the program) here for reference.
It's not a big deal either way, but personally, I'm not convinced that we need to mention the "parking lot altercation" at all. It's a minor bit of information at best, and also suffers from the fact that it's an incident described -- and quite possibly spun -- by Dawkins. — Matt Crypto 20:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I vote for keeping it. It is anecdotal, but so is much of history--accounts of people who have met other people qualify easily in biographies, whether critical or not, and though youtube isn't hosting the video anymore, the video still exists and can be seen as biographical. The problem is not the account, but the horrible paucity of other accounts. I'd suggest anyone who has POV problems with it to consider adding more accounts, and anyone who thinks it isn't important to consider how much the dawkins' documentary actually fits into examination of both haggard's political and spiritual notoriety. i personally find dawkins to be a total bore (and really rather un-imaginative) but even still would argue for at least some mention of this conversation. It's also really important for anyone examining the larger issues of what the christians and the media have called "the culture war," in which both Haggard and Dawkins could be seen as a "combatants."-- Chalyres 10:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm "voting" for both the reference AND the text.-- Chalyres 02:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I modified the text so there are at least fewer POV problems. I still think the real issue is that it doesn't belong here at all but will compromise on this. I don't like adding more text to a minor incident, but since it's there, I think it should be presented as fairly as possible. Odometer 17:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Remarkably, Ted_Haggard#Relationship_with_President_George_W._Bush this mention of the All Saints Church tax status issue is the first in Wikipedia. Does someone have a citation for Haggard's view? And does someone want to start an article on the broader matter? Jmabel | Talk November 23, 2005
As an encyclopedia article, one would expect a fair, unbiased look at a subject. It is obvious by some quotes used, as well as by the links provided, that this article was written with an agenda in mind. Also, the theology section is far from what Haggard believes and teaches. (I admit, I am a New Life Church attendee and I have NEVER heard the terms "Third Wave" or "Open Theism." If you are satisfied with reading an article written by a critic, with the agenda of a critic then you should be happy here. If you would rather read Ted Haggards beliefs first hand, go to newlifechurch.org. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.177.130.98 ( talk • contribs) 25 Jan 2006
I as well, go to New Life Church. But Ted Haggard has never stated that he believes God doesn't know the future. He's stated multiple times that he believes God knows what will happen. Don't you think the crucifixion of Jesus Christ would be a little pointless if he wasn't sure that the "master plan" would work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.248.122.86 ( talk • contribs) 21 April 2006.
If God knows who will fall and who will not, then they have no choice in the matter
The following comment was added in the middle of the second "The Root of All Evil?" quotation:
There is no attribution for this comment, and it certainly wasn't part of the programme. It clearly adds information to make an argument, and so is a violation of WP:NOR. If properly sourced it could be added after the whole quotation, making it clear who is making the argument, but certainly shouldn't be in the middle. .. dave souza, talk 18:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section on media appearances for the second time. I feel it is unsatisfactory to include a large section which is merely copied from another article, and to which this article already refers. I also feel that having so much of this article based on ten minutes of video is unbalanced. I would suggest we create this section when we have at least more than one media appearance to describe. Laurence Boyce 10:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this section again as it was getting quite ridiculous. It is totally unbalanced to have this article dominated by ten minutes of video. Laurence Boyce 19:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
[a small room set aside for prayer and speaking in tongues at New Life Church] lol, who wrote this? That's entirely not true. This article needs more sourcing and cleaning up. Just because it's posted on a site, doesn't make it true. 68.207.165.200 05:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed some material which was unreferenced, or rather it was referenced but the links were broken. Please re-insert this material if you can fix the links. I have also reduced some new material regarding some recent allegations. Please let's not go overboard with this while it remains an unsubstantiated story. Laurence Boyce 18:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
First: Could we possibly find a better picture? The one on the article right now could not be less flatering short of photoshop. Aside form being a bit prejudicial I think it actually detracts form the article. Second: The opening paragraph and media reporting describes him as an Evangelicals but this article is in Category:Pentecostals and the two are not percisly speaking the same thing. Which is true? Dalf | Talk 07:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe some people are asking for a 'better' picture. This is an encyclopedia, not a religious fundermentalist sales brochure. The picture on the page represents exactly the image of Ted Haggard that I have seen and such I think it is accurate. how on earth can te picture be 'prejudical' ? - as said, that's what he looks like. 81.76.103.5 18:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Not former. The page was recently edited to say that Haggard was a former evangelical pastor. He has merely stepped down pending an investigation. While he probably won't return to his post, we should save the "past tense" until it has been announced that he definitely won't return. Joshfriel 02:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Not going to attempt to add or edit anything, but i thought i'd just add this on the talk page for now. new acting senior pastor/interim senior pastor Parsley stated in an inteview with link posted here that "some indiscretion was admitted" and clarifies that only some, not all. video link: http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/4557411.html not trying to stir up any trouble, by the way...just help people keep updated. -- Chalyres 08:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
If he is (potentially) embroiled in a scandal over homosexual sex and prostitution, and if he is a religious teacher, shouldn't his views on both issues be included?? Surely he has made statements about what he believes about homosexual sex, and prostitution -- and if he is married, adultery? If the charges are false, these might help to clarify how they attack his beliefs. If the charges are true, these will help might help clarify whether he is consistent or corrupt. Popster1
So "core" that they weren't included in the article until this news broke? Dubious POV fork. And Haggard is not a Fundamentalist. Watch before slinging term there, unknown user. Zz414 18:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to break up the different kinds of news, there are several general articles about Haggard, and then a few about the scandal. They should be divided up because they are distinct items, at least for now. Zz414 20:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
From http://www.9news.com - " A look at the contradictions in the different statements Pastor Ted Haggard has made to 9NEWS. 9NEWS at 5 p.m. November 1, 2006." (Windows Media Video file)— Wasabe3543 01:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
The Biography link is dead. Here is a better one, with a lot of background on his family. His father was famous in his day as an inventor of Gaines Burgers. [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bucksburg ( talk • contribs) 22:55, 3 November 2006)
Just so we're clear, Haggard's not a televangelist. He's a preacher, yes, but that's distinct from being a televangelist. Zz414 18:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I divided the accusations into two sections because they were getting a little long. I think it's easiest to classify them as Jones's allegations and reactions, and Haggard's responses and contradictions. Fair? Zz414 18:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm changing "methamphetamines" to methamphetamine, there is only one form (methyl-substituted amphetamine) so it is somewhat misleading. Reb42 22:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
They've officially dismissed him now: http://www.newlifechurch.org/pressrelease110606.pdf Somebody might want to add that to the article.-- Injoy 00:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Haggard has only confessed to knowing Jones, receiving a massage from him, buying drugs, and "some sexual immorality." He's denied a homosexual affair and drug use. Until we see a criminal conviction, a confession, or a smoking gun, we'll have to settle for the "allegations" tag for now. Zz414 19:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's appropriate to include links to Jones's personal promotional sites on Haggard's page. I won't get into a revert war, but I'm open to discussion. This is Haggard's page, not Jones. Zz414 23:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have quotes of the Barbara Walter's special with Ted Haggard (& others) where sex in heaven was a topic? Gemini79 20:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
The Gazette also published Gayle Haggard's letter to New Life Church on November 5, 2006. Should her letter (or a summary) be on this page? Also, it doesn't look like she has her own wikipedia page. Should she?
Here's her letter:
"Dear Women of New Life Church,
I am so sorry for the circumstances that have led me to write this letter to you today. I know your hearts are broken; mine is as well. Yet my hope rests steadfastly in the Lord who is forever faithful.
What I want you to know is that I love my husband, Ted Haggard, with all my heart. I am committed to him until death "do us part". We started this journey together and with the grace of God, we will finish together.
If I were standing before you today, I would not change one iota of what I have been teaching the women of our church. For those of you who have been concerned that my marriage was so perfect I could not possibly relate to the women who are facing great difficulties, know that this will never again be the case. My test has begun; watch me. I will try to prove myself faithful.
I love you all so much, especially you young women - you were my delight.
To all the church family of New Life Church - Ted and I are so proud of you. You are all we hoped you would be. In our minds, there is no greater church.
As you try to make sense of these past few days, know that Ted believes with all his heart and soul everything he has ever taught you, those things you are putting into practice. He is now the visible and public evidence that every man (woman and child) needs a Savior.
We are grateful for your prayers for our family.
I hold you forever in my heart."
- Gayle Haggard, letter to New Life Church ( http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326185&secid=1)
Kylebrotherton 08:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The article mentions how there are some voicemails that are likely Ted Haggard that orginated from Jones but nothing else about these voice mails. What is said in them and why are they significant? As far as I know they could be Haggard allegedly saying he's an alien for mars who likes to have sex with dolphins and smoke sugar Nil Einne 16:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
They are significant because Ted Haggard initially denied even knowing Mike Jones. These voice mails were important in linking the two, and essentially, being the evidence that caught Ted Haggard in his lies. -- Ubiq 02:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
In the article Ross Parsley is sometimes spelled Ross Parsely and other times Ross Parsley. On the New Life Church website it is Ross Parsley (unless there is more than one person there with the same name) 24.117.66.114 17:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Minor quibble, but the description of the board process is technically incorrect:
"The board cited the bylaws of the mega-church and said his conduct required them to remove him from his job."
"Required" is not accurate. Maybe "compelled"?
From the statement by the board, the bylaws indicate that they must make a decision about discipline, of which removal is simply one option.
Direct quote:
"The language of our church and bylaws state that as Overseers we must decide in cases where the Senior Pastor has ' demonstrated immoral conduct ' whether we must ' remove the pastor from his position or to discipline him in any way that they deem necessary.' "
4.79.137.4 20:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
It should be recorded that many people find the latest sex and drugs scandal very very funny. 213.202.133.218 23:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Second ! -- 130.89.190.134 00:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Here, here. I also might be in the minority, though, 'cause i totally wouldn't have charged haggard. I think he's kinda cute. -- Chalyres 02:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Even though it's vandalism, I agree, I laughed my ass off. H2P ( Yell at me for what I've done) 04:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Rev Ted is now the most prolific testament to the failure of reparative therapy. This article should reflect this.
In the section titled "Haggard's Response," there is a small correction needed. The article currently says:
Later however, Haggard stepped down as president of the National Association of Evangelicals.[28] He stated, "I am voluntarily stepping aside from leadership so that the overseer process can be allowed to proceed with integrity. I hope to be able to discuss this matter in more detail at a later date. In the interim, I will seek both spiritual advice and guidance."[29]
The quote that is given by Ted Haggard is not referring to stepping down from the NAE. He stepped aside from leadership at New Life Church (placing himself on administrative leave) which is where the quote comes from. He did step down from the NAE as well, but the overseer process came from the church, not the NAE.
If you read footnote 29 ( http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5112770,00.html) you will see the quote is in context to leaving the church, not the NAE.
Kylel2005 20:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
You're correct. I've further edited this passage to reflect the fact that he only went on "administrative leave" from his position at the church. He didn't step down. I don't have a specific citation. 68.178.2.110 00:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Based on published reports, I don't think the term affair acurately reflects Haggard's relationship/arrangement with Jones. The allegations are Haggard paid a male prostitute for sex over a three year span (and the dope part). Does paying for sex constitute an affair? Was Haggrad secretly sending Jones flowers, buying him gifts, meeting him for lunch/dinner, taking him on vacations or doing any of the things we typically think of when we think of an affair. Has Jones claimed Haggard ever expressed any romantic love or affection for him? Aren't affairs generally between two people who have some sort of affection for one another and not the result of a paid sexual liason? In fact should we call it a sexual liason instead of an affair? I'd like to hear other opinions on the subject. Mr Christopher 15:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
"affair, n. 8. A romantic and sexual relationship, sometimes one of brief duration, between two people who are not married to each other." Just some icing on the cake for you guys. The most important part there is "romantic AND sexual". Mike Jones has hinted on more than one occasion that their relationship was sexual, not romantic. So most of us can agree affair wouldn't work. I do, however, think it would be fitting to say he cheated on his wife with a man. I don't see "alleged homosexual relationship" as NPOV. Mike seems to be able to recall every detail of their relationship, not to mention Haggard has lied on more than one occasion about all this and it's a bit obvious he's being intentionally vague by saying he was guilty of "sexual immorality". Keep in mind also, that Haggard is not still denying the homosexual relationship part. I imagine if he was guilty of sexual immorality but not guilty of a gay relationship, that he would clarify what he really did. My two. -- Ubiq 14:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe Dobson had initially blamed the media and democrats for the story about Haggard, but I do not recall where I read him saying that. Is anyone familiar with this? Mr Christopher 17:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's from the rockymountain news: "James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, a nationally known conservative Christian organization based in Colorado Springs, blasted the media for its "unconscionable" reporting of "a rumor like this based on nothing but one man's accusation."
"Ted Haggard is a friend of mine, and it appears someone is trying to damage his reputation as a way of influencing the outcome of Tuesday's election - especially the vote on Colorado's marriage-protection amendment - which Ted strongly supports," Dobson said in a statement. " http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5115230,00.html
That isn't the full text of his statements, but i think it may not have been Dobson but actually Falwell or Robertson that specifically mentioned the Dems. then again, i seem to remember it being Dobson and can't find anything more than that at the moment. -- Chalyres 03:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
-- Ubiq 05:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is that section still titled as such, when many of these allegations have been confirmed or confessed? I suggest "Improprieties involving homosexuality and drugs." Haiduc 17:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Totally for Scandal, because it actually frees up a lot of NPOV conflict problems. Scandal gives you a bit more leverage to talk about the allegations without slipping into speculation, and since it's moving out of a current event (i DON'T think that much more info will be coming out on this, now overshadowed by the election results, etc.).-- Chalyres 03:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
What we have now is
What if we changed "Admission and removal from job" to "Aftermath" (or something close) where we can cover more than just Haggard's removal. There has been quite a bit written about Haggard's confession, criticisms and prominant evangelical leaders have weighed in on the subject.
Second point - What if we changed "Haggard's response" to "Response to allegations" so we can more clearly cover more than just Haggard's reactions? So we'd end up with:
I think these changes would allow us to cover more than just the "he said she said" between Jones and Haggard.
Thoughts, concerns, opinions? Can I get a witness? Mr Christopher 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of other things that could be added to the political ideology section, and it seems important to expand it. One of the reasons everyone even heard of the allegations in the first place was his impact on politics and the vast amount of interviews he was giving, as well as the Harper's and other's articles about him focusing on his politics. However, something really important ought to be discussed--in some of haggard's interviews, he seems to make it clear that his "pro-free market" stance is actually part of his theology. One important source here is Christopher's Lydon's Open Source, an NPR blog-styled radio discussion program. Furthermore, there is such a blending of politics and theology in some of the most well-known evangelical figures. Witness Falwell's remarks about gays and lesbians right after 9-11. was that a theological statement or a political statement? I argue it would be both, and such would be the case with Haggard's remarks. Part of this might just be that it's difficult to hear someone you look towards for spiritual advice talk about something in the political sphere and not make the connection (you consider him trustworthy already, etc.). A lot of the criticism about Haggard actually came from other christians angry over his blending of free-market capitalism, foreign intervention, and top-heavy tax cuts with his biblical stance. It'll probably be a lot of work, but it'd be interesting and would help put the scandal in context, too. http://www.radioopensource.org/index.php?s=haggard, audio file from dec 19th (christian america). -- Chalyres 21:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
That section starts with Haggard's initial denials and I think we should include the initial reaction of various leaders in the evangelical community (and any other noteworthy ones for that matter, be they christian or not). Then go back into focussing on Haggard's specific responses we now see beginning in the remaining paragraphs. I'll try and add more to it this evening. Mr Christopher 21:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Can be found here Enjoy! Mr Christopher 18:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I know this is a emotionally/polititally charged subject but I really object to us categorizing him as gay or bisexual. The fact that someone has sex with the same sex does not mean they consider themselves to be gay or lesbian. Haggard has not admitted to being gay or bisexual so us putting him in that category is an act of outing on our part in my opinion. Is it wiki policy to add every person who has same sex relations to be added to those categories? Is the mainstream media referring to Haggard as a homosexual? I'm not trying to defend haggard, I am just voicing my concers about these categories. I suspect Haggard would deny he is gay, in spite of his hobbies with Mike Jones:-) What next, do we add him to a Wiki list of drug addicts? This is just wrong in my opinion. I think adding him to those categories is very POV. Again, has Haggard claimed he is gay or bisexual? Does the mainstream media now refer to him as a gay or bisexual man? I'd like to hear the opinions of others on the subject. Mr Christopher 18:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Ditto, though one might note that he might be homosexual without being gay. Or maybe he's bi... Or maybe.... Exploding Boy 19:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm a little confused. I'm homosexual/gay/queer (i'm not even slightly confused about that part) but where does this "having homosexual sex doesn't make you gay?" come from? i think the only reason we could not call him gay in the article is because he has not admitted to it. I guess i have decidedly different ideas about outing. can someone please explain to me how one can be homosexual without being gay? It seems to be pre-supposed as axiomatic here, but i've never heard of such an idea (and neither has my queer-history master's degree partner), so i'm really lost here. -- Chalyres 21:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I hate to debate this too much, but i kind of feel like i ought to, only because i still don't understand the rationale. If you have forced homosexual or heterosexual sex, then that's rape. If you pay for homosexual sex monthly for three years, i think that's something different. The category "gay" is a difficult one, i'll admit (i usually refer to myself as anarchoqueer, but we're not talking about me), but i think the much larger issue here is the indentification of homosex as an abberation within a specific context. within a religious-cultural context that sees homosex as fallen, unnatural, etc, in which it can be "changed" and is not a default preference, than having gay sex all you want still doesn't make you gay as long as you repent or "fought against" it. What i'm arguing is this. The only NPOV reason to not label Haggard as gay is that so far the accusations are un-admitted. IF Haggard had sex with the man as often as is claimed, then there would be nothing biased about calling him gay or bisexual. -- Chalyres 22:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
" Gay" is an identity. Being gay suggests an exclusive attraction to members of one's own sex, and at least some type of identification with the large gay culture. If Haggard identifies as "gay," then he's been doing a good job of hiding it, and he hasn't said so publicly. A homosexual is someone who is more or less exclusively attracted to members of his or her own sex; we don't know if that's the case with Haggard or not, since, again, he hasn't said anything about it. We do know he has 5 kids, so that might make him bisexual, but again, we can't say with any certainty. In all likelihood he's deeply conflicted about his exclusive same-sex desires--that would explain the meth--and has been fighting them his entire life, partly by becoming invovled in religion. But that's simple speculation on my part. Exploding Boy 22:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
(except, of course, adding "allegedly." I'm only half-serious, by the way).
Haggard sodomized a man for 3 years while high on drugs, and you guys "have a problem with the gay" category?? ROFL!! umm... sorry but it doesn't get any more homosexual than that. 68.7.67.96 20:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
JoshuaZ is 100% correct. I'll acknowledge Savage as an RS regarding which kind of lube to use in any given situation, and even on some of the more exotic uses for hard-boiled eggs, but in terms of which labels he applies to people (and his reasons for doing so) his credibilty is somewhat diminished. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 05:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Practice and identity seem to me to be two different matters. If we had a category "hopeless closet cases", which we don't and shouldn't, I'd gladly put him in there (and lock the door). But to call a person, not an act, "gay" involves a matter of identity, and clearly Haggard does not embrace that identity. - Jmabel | Talk 01:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This section is well-written and very well referenced, but does anyone else agree that it contains sufficient allegations at this point? What's there now is good, but I think adding any more might be overkill. Just a thought...-- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 21:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Hard to say until someone adds something that we feel is redundant :-) Mr Christopher 22:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
What we have now is
Haggard believes in what is known as the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit and subscribes to the concept referred to as the Five-fold ministry – beliefs often associated with the charismatic movement. He believes that there is one, all-knowing God, and that humans were created to be with him. His beliefs reflect biblical inerrancy and biblical literalism.[9]
The link or the archived one that Matt crypto found, goes to Haggard's website. There is no mention of the "third wave" or "five-fold ministry" on Haggard's website. I googled both terms with Haggards name and I came up with what appears to be very sketchy results at best. I am not familiar with what is considered reliable christian oriented web sites and the ones I did find mentioned these concepts with Haggard's name only briefly. They read more like accusations than evidence. I did not find Haggard claiming either the third wave" or "five-fold ministry" anywhere. If we cannot find reliable sources for these claims I think we might want to remove them. My search skilles are probably not the best so maybe someone else can do a better job of supporting these claims, but again, if we cannot support the claims I think we should remove them until better evidence is found. Mr Christopher 22:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Your tubes must be broken. Haggard is a contributing author in a book called Understanding the fivefold ministry, edited by Matthew Green, ISBN 1591856221. The table of contents says he wrote chapter 21, "The Pastor and the Fivefold Ministry". I'll go look for the "third wave" stuff now. — Coelacan | talk 03:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a different issue with the theology section. This sentence: He believes that there is one, all-knowing God, and that humans were created to be with him. Isn't that just generic Christian boilerplate? Including it makes it sound as though it were distinctive, as though most other Christians don't believe this. — Coelacan | talk 21:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey Guys, I know you are all into this subject, and although wiki may not be the best place, I was wondering if you could help me out with a bit of research here; as a UC student, I am open to both sides, the pro-Haggard side (i.e. Haggard was a great pastor, but...) and the anti-Haggard side (i.e this is how power corrupts evangelicals...) and also anything in between.
"Identify an exclusive political story/scoop generated by the mainstream media. From there, track the dissemination of that story to other media (television, newspapers, online media and bloggers). Detail how the story is reshaped as it makes its way through the media, and who is doing the spinning."
If this is deemed inappropriate in any way, shape or form by you, honorable wiki users, then I am sorry, and please continiue with the discussion, and ignore this comment.
Thank You,
- UC student
Link is here: [10] says Haggard had admitted already to the ministers before any of the interviews to "sexual immorality." i think that a rethink of the homosexual allegations should be done, seeing as it seems the ministers are using code to refer to it. little logic: he is said to have had sex with a man at least 36 times (once a month for three years). He admits to sexual immorality. there are no other allegations. therfore, he had sex with a man 36 times. that makes you, at the very least, bisexual. -- Chalyres 23:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
In the last part of the section titled "Admission and removal from job" ( [11]), counseling might perhaps be pipered to re-education or thought reform... That's what comes to my mind when reading the section. Scoo 10:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Been on the mailing list for New Life Church since the scandal broke. Here's an excerpt that i received today from Ross Parsley. There is no copyright disclaimer on the email, by the way. You can also get on the email list by going to the New Life website.
while. It was a good time of sharing and healing. They've been spending
their days talking and praying together, seeing a counselor, and working
toward the restoration process. Over the next several weeks and months,
they will receive in-depth ministry that will tend to their emotional,
physical, and spiritual well-being. Ted remains humbly submitted to the
authority of the overseers, and he and Gayle are trusting God for
healing and direction. Be assured that the trustees and overseers are making
wise decisions to ensure they are taken care of in every way. Ted and
Gayle asked me to tell you how much they love and appreciate you and
your prayers during this difficult time for them. Please continue to pray
for their family.'
--
Chalyres
02:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
It would be interesting to see if anyone could find information on the content of Bill Bright's sermon that Haggard heard at age sixteen when it is said that his views (obviously not his actions) turned to those of fundamental born-again Christianity. Maybe there is a connection to the "sexual immorality" that he's "been warring against" from the time of reaching adulthood and the time when he first espoused those beliefs (although, again, not actions).
Just on a personal note, it seems that those with the most extreme demonising views against any particular thing are almost always those that actually endulge in the very deed themselves, but have never reconciled it. They then compensate the guilt by forcefully crusading against it. People that are just against something but have not themselves ever done it, don't ever seem to radicals about whatever the issue is. Al-Andalus 03:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, according to the article, our boy Ted is from Indiana. But, wait, he's also from Colorado. And he's also from Baton Rouge (Louisiana). Just how many places can he come from? Do we add him to every geographic area that he's ever lived in? Seems like he should only "be from" (people from ____) one place, the place where he was born, no? Or am I mistaken? Mr Christopher 00:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
(I can't believe that I'm writing this...) An anonymous person from 70.39.4.252 changed the description of Ted Haggard's sex with Mike Jones from anal sex to oral sex. Is there a resource that has what kind of sex Mike Jones allegedly had with Ted Haggard? Chip Unicorn 05:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
i prefer anal. (sorry, that was begging to happen). the allegations are definitely of anal, though i'm sure there was probably some oral sex. we could just make it "sodomy," but unfortunately, that applies to hets as well as homos. i think it's funny someone changed it, though. i really don't care one way or the other. -- Chalyres 01:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The source says "about six young college guys ranging from 18 to 22 in age". It did not mention twinks (blonds with little hair and swimmers bodies, etc). For us to define what Haggard's fanatasies are is to indulge in POV. Mr Christopher 05:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Common parlance suggests "twinks" can also have brown, black, or red hair. I think the only requirements is that they be thin, young, and annoyingly stupid. Is there a wiki entry for twink yet? -- Chalyres 00:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Check the edit history on the article, it used to link to a twink article which I reverted for the reasons above. Question - what makes them annoyingly stupid? Mr Christopher 04:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
twinks are the gay equivalent of dumb easy girls. personally, i tend to call them "matress mops." nevermind. -- Chalyres 11:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't have the pop up thing and don't have the time right now to revert everything he'she is writing Mr Christopher 17:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
nevermind...didn't realise the vandal was erasing the aforementioned "repulsive and dark" comment. how annoying after all this collective work. -- Chalyres 11:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The opening paragraph of a biography should avoid detailed scandal information. While it's common to start out that way after a scandal breaks, eventually the biography goes back to being more encylopedic. We have a scandal section under Ted Haggard. Putting in the same information twice is unnecessary. Most scandals aren't contained in the opening biography paragraph, although in this case I can understand it. See Gary Hart or Hugh Grant for examples. 66.75.8.138 16:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. WP:LEAD says, "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and describing its notable controversies, if there are any. It should be between one and four paragraphs long, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear and accessible style so that the reader is encouraged to read the rest of the article." We should not simply mention "oh and he resigned amidst controversy" and leave it at that. The lead should be a mini-article, and considering that this is now Haggard's primary source of notability, it makes sense to give a detailed summary of the controversy before the table of contents. I don't think the lead is problematic at this time. The reader should be able to glean from the lead: what the allegations were, why the allegations were made, whether they were true, and how the incident affected his life and career. There may be room to add more detail of Haggard's non-scandal life to the lead, for some balance, but I don't see anything that should be taken out. — coelacan talk — 17:31, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ted Haggard/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Holy geez, I ran into this entry on 11/2 after reading an 11/2 article about Haggard's -r-a-n-k-h-y-p-o-c-r-a-c-y- err, I mean recent problems. Much to my amazement and respect, the author has already updated this page on, you guessed it, 11/2. Outstanding! (nice article, besides it's uncanny currency). |
Last edited at 01:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:50, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ted Haggard/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Holy geez, I ran into this entry on 11/2 after reading an 11/2 article about Haggard's -r-a-n-k-h-y-p-o-c-r-a-c-y- err, I mean recent problems. Much to my amazement and respect, the author has already updated this page on, you guessed it, 11/2. Outstanding! (nice article, besides it's uncanny currency). |
Last edited at 01:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC).
Substituted at 21:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This is just a general comment to say that the NPOV work has been excellent over the last couple of days. Let's hope it keeps up for a good article. Zz414 23:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll post the full transcript of the interview (as presented in the program) here for reference.
It's not a big deal either way, but personally, I'm not convinced that we need to mention the "parking lot altercation" at all. It's a minor bit of information at best, and also suffers from the fact that it's an incident described -- and quite possibly spun -- by Dawkins. — Matt Crypto 20:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I vote for keeping it. It is anecdotal, but so is much of history--accounts of people who have met other people qualify easily in biographies, whether critical or not, and though youtube isn't hosting the video anymore, the video still exists and can be seen as biographical. The problem is not the account, but the horrible paucity of other accounts. I'd suggest anyone who has POV problems with it to consider adding more accounts, and anyone who thinks it isn't important to consider how much the dawkins' documentary actually fits into examination of both haggard's political and spiritual notoriety. i personally find dawkins to be a total bore (and really rather un-imaginative) but even still would argue for at least some mention of this conversation. It's also really important for anyone examining the larger issues of what the christians and the media have called "the culture war," in which both Haggard and Dawkins could be seen as a "combatants."-- Chalyres 10:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm "voting" for both the reference AND the text.-- Chalyres 02:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I modified the text so there are at least fewer POV problems. I still think the real issue is that it doesn't belong here at all but will compromise on this. I don't like adding more text to a minor incident, but since it's there, I think it should be presented as fairly as possible. Odometer 17:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Remarkably, Ted_Haggard#Relationship_with_President_George_W._Bush this mention of the All Saints Church tax status issue is the first in Wikipedia. Does someone have a citation for Haggard's view? And does someone want to start an article on the broader matter? Jmabel | Talk November 23, 2005
As an encyclopedia article, one would expect a fair, unbiased look at a subject. It is obvious by some quotes used, as well as by the links provided, that this article was written with an agenda in mind. Also, the theology section is far from what Haggard believes and teaches. (I admit, I am a New Life Church attendee and I have NEVER heard the terms "Third Wave" or "Open Theism." If you are satisfied with reading an article written by a critic, with the agenda of a critic then you should be happy here. If you would rather read Ted Haggards beliefs first hand, go to newlifechurch.org. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.177.130.98 ( talk • contribs) 25 Jan 2006
I as well, go to New Life Church. But Ted Haggard has never stated that he believes God doesn't know the future. He's stated multiple times that he believes God knows what will happen. Don't you think the crucifixion of Jesus Christ would be a little pointless if he wasn't sure that the "master plan" would work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.248.122.86 ( talk • contribs) 21 April 2006.
If God knows who will fall and who will not, then they have no choice in the matter
The following comment was added in the middle of the second "The Root of All Evil?" quotation:
There is no attribution for this comment, and it certainly wasn't part of the programme. It clearly adds information to make an argument, and so is a violation of WP:NOR. If properly sourced it could be added after the whole quotation, making it clear who is making the argument, but certainly shouldn't be in the middle. .. dave souza, talk 18:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section on media appearances for the second time. I feel it is unsatisfactory to include a large section which is merely copied from another article, and to which this article already refers. I also feel that having so much of this article based on ten minutes of video is unbalanced. I would suggest we create this section when we have at least more than one media appearance to describe. Laurence Boyce 10:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this section again as it was getting quite ridiculous. It is totally unbalanced to have this article dominated by ten minutes of video. Laurence Boyce 19:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
[a small room set aside for prayer and speaking in tongues at New Life Church] lol, who wrote this? That's entirely not true. This article needs more sourcing and cleaning up. Just because it's posted on a site, doesn't make it true. 68.207.165.200 05:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed some material which was unreferenced, or rather it was referenced but the links were broken. Please re-insert this material if you can fix the links. I have also reduced some new material regarding some recent allegations. Please let's not go overboard with this while it remains an unsubstantiated story. Laurence Boyce 18:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
First: Could we possibly find a better picture? The one on the article right now could not be less flatering short of photoshop. Aside form being a bit prejudicial I think it actually detracts form the article. Second: The opening paragraph and media reporting describes him as an Evangelicals but this article is in Category:Pentecostals and the two are not percisly speaking the same thing. Which is true? Dalf | Talk 07:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe some people are asking for a 'better' picture. This is an encyclopedia, not a religious fundermentalist sales brochure. The picture on the page represents exactly the image of Ted Haggard that I have seen and such I think it is accurate. how on earth can te picture be 'prejudical' ? - as said, that's what he looks like. 81.76.103.5 18:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Not former. The page was recently edited to say that Haggard was a former evangelical pastor. He has merely stepped down pending an investigation. While he probably won't return to his post, we should save the "past tense" until it has been announced that he definitely won't return. Joshfriel 02:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Not going to attempt to add or edit anything, but i thought i'd just add this on the talk page for now. new acting senior pastor/interim senior pastor Parsley stated in an inteview with link posted here that "some indiscretion was admitted" and clarifies that only some, not all. video link: http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/4557411.html not trying to stir up any trouble, by the way...just help people keep updated. -- Chalyres 08:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
If he is (potentially) embroiled in a scandal over homosexual sex and prostitution, and if he is a religious teacher, shouldn't his views on both issues be included?? Surely he has made statements about what he believes about homosexual sex, and prostitution -- and if he is married, adultery? If the charges are false, these might help to clarify how they attack his beliefs. If the charges are true, these will help might help clarify whether he is consistent or corrupt. Popster1
So "core" that they weren't included in the article until this news broke? Dubious POV fork. And Haggard is not a Fundamentalist. Watch before slinging term there, unknown user. Zz414 18:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to break up the different kinds of news, there are several general articles about Haggard, and then a few about the scandal. They should be divided up because they are distinct items, at least for now. Zz414 20:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
From http://www.9news.com - " A look at the contradictions in the different statements Pastor Ted Haggard has made to 9NEWS. 9NEWS at 5 p.m. November 1, 2006." (Windows Media Video file)— Wasabe3543 01:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
The Biography link is dead. Here is a better one, with a lot of background on his family. His father was famous in his day as an inventor of Gaines Burgers. [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bucksburg ( talk • contribs) 22:55, 3 November 2006)
Just so we're clear, Haggard's not a televangelist. He's a preacher, yes, but that's distinct from being a televangelist. Zz414 18:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I divided the accusations into two sections because they were getting a little long. I think it's easiest to classify them as Jones's allegations and reactions, and Haggard's responses and contradictions. Fair? Zz414 18:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm changing "methamphetamines" to methamphetamine, there is only one form (methyl-substituted amphetamine) so it is somewhat misleading. Reb42 22:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
They've officially dismissed him now: http://www.newlifechurch.org/pressrelease110606.pdf Somebody might want to add that to the article.-- Injoy 00:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Haggard has only confessed to knowing Jones, receiving a massage from him, buying drugs, and "some sexual immorality." He's denied a homosexual affair and drug use. Until we see a criminal conviction, a confession, or a smoking gun, we'll have to settle for the "allegations" tag for now. Zz414 19:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's appropriate to include links to Jones's personal promotional sites on Haggard's page. I won't get into a revert war, but I'm open to discussion. This is Haggard's page, not Jones. Zz414 23:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have quotes of the Barbara Walter's special with Ted Haggard (& others) where sex in heaven was a topic? Gemini79 20:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
The Gazette also published Gayle Haggard's letter to New Life Church on November 5, 2006. Should her letter (or a summary) be on this page? Also, it doesn't look like she has her own wikipedia page. Should she?
Here's her letter:
"Dear Women of New Life Church,
I am so sorry for the circumstances that have led me to write this letter to you today. I know your hearts are broken; mine is as well. Yet my hope rests steadfastly in the Lord who is forever faithful.
What I want you to know is that I love my husband, Ted Haggard, with all my heart. I am committed to him until death "do us part". We started this journey together and with the grace of God, we will finish together.
If I were standing before you today, I would not change one iota of what I have been teaching the women of our church. For those of you who have been concerned that my marriage was so perfect I could not possibly relate to the women who are facing great difficulties, know that this will never again be the case. My test has begun; watch me. I will try to prove myself faithful.
I love you all so much, especially you young women - you were my delight.
To all the church family of New Life Church - Ted and I are so proud of you. You are all we hoped you would be. In our minds, there is no greater church.
As you try to make sense of these past few days, know that Ted believes with all his heart and soul everything he has ever taught you, those things you are putting into practice. He is now the visible and public evidence that every man (woman and child) needs a Savior.
We are grateful for your prayers for our family.
I hold you forever in my heart."
- Gayle Haggard, letter to New Life Church ( http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326185&secid=1)
Kylebrotherton 08:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The article mentions how there are some voicemails that are likely Ted Haggard that orginated from Jones but nothing else about these voice mails. What is said in them and why are they significant? As far as I know they could be Haggard allegedly saying he's an alien for mars who likes to have sex with dolphins and smoke sugar Nil Einne 16:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
They are significant because Ted Haggard initially denied even knowing Mike Jones. These voice mails were important in linking the two, and essentially, being the evidence that caught Ted Haggard in his lies. -- Ubiq 02:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
In the article Ross Parsley is sometimes spelled Ross Parsely and other times Ross Parsley. On the New Life Church website it is Ross Parsley (unless there is more than one person there with the same name) 24.117.66.114 17:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Minor quibble, but the description of the board process is technically incorrect:
"The board cited the bylaws of the mega-church and said his conduct required them to remove him from his job."
"Required" is not accurate. Maybe "compelled"?
From the statement by the board, the bylaws indicate that they must make a decision about discipline, of which removal is simply one option.
Direct quote:
"The language of our church and bylaws state that as Overseers we must decide in cases where the Senior Pastor has ' demonstrated immoral conduct ' whether we must ' remove the pastor from his position or to discipline him in any way that they deem necessary.' "
4.79.137.4 20:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
It should be recorded that many people find the latest sex and drugs scandal very very funny. 213.202.133.218 23:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Second ! -- 130.89.190.134 00:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Here, here. I also might be in the minority, though, 'cause i totally wouldn't have charged haggard. I think he's kinda cute. -- Chalyres 02:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Even though it's vandalism, I agree, I laughed my ass off. H2P ( Yell at me for what I've done) 04:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Rev Ted is now the most prolific testament to the failure of reparative therapy. This article should reflect this.
In the section titled "Haggard's Response," there is a small correction needed. The article currently says:
Later however, Haggard stepped down as president of the National Association of Evangelicals.[28] He stated, "I am voluntarily stepping aside from leadership so that the overseer process can be allowed to proceed with integrity. I hope to be able to discuss this matter in more detail at a later date. In the interim, I will seek both spiritual advice and guidance."[29]
The quote that is given by Ted Haggard is not referring to stepping down from the NAE. He stepped aside from leadership at New Life Church (placing himself on administrative leave) which is where the quote comes from. He did step down from the NAE as well, but the overseer process came from the church, not the NAE.
If you read footnote 29 ( http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5112770,00.html) you will see the quote is in context to leaving the church, not the NAE.
Kylel2005 20:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
You're correct. I've further edited this passage to reflect the fact that he only went on "administrative leave" from his position at the church. He didn't step down. I don't have a specific citation. 68.178.2.110 00:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Based on published reports, I don't think the term affair acurately reflects Haggard's relationship/arrangement with Jones. The allegations are Haggard paid a male prostitute for sex over a three year span (and the dope part). Does paying for sex constitute an affair? Was Haggrad secretly sending Jones flowers, buying him gifts, meeting him for lunch/dinner, taking him on vacations or doing any of the things we typically think of when we think of an affair. Has Jones claimed Haggard ever expressed any romantic love or affection for him? Aren't affairs generally between two people who have some sort of affection for one another and not the result of a paid sexual liason? In fact should we call it a sexual liason instead of an affair? I'd like to hear other opinions on the subject. Mr Christopher 15:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
"affair, n. 8. A romantic and sexual relationship, sometimes one of brief duration, between two people who are not married to each other." Just some icing on the cake for you guys. The most important part there is "romantic AND sexual". Mike Jones has hinted on more than one occasion that their relationship was sexual, not romantic. So most of us can agree affair wouldn't work. I do, however, think it would be fitting to say he cheated on his wife with a man. I don't see "alleged homosexual relationship" as NPOV. Mike seems to be able to recall every detail of their relationship, not to mention Haggard has lied on more than one occasion about all this and it's a bit obvious he's being intentionally vague by saying he was guilty of "sexual immorality". Keep in mind also, that Haggard is not still denying the homosexual relationship part. I imagine if he was guilty of sexual immorality but not guilty of a gay relationship, that he would clarify what he really did. My two. -- Ubiq 14:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe Dobson had initially blamed the media and democrats for the story about Haggard, but I do not recall where I read him saying that. Is anyone familiar with this? Mr Christopher 17:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's from the rockymountain news: "James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, a nationally known conservative Christian organization based in Colorado Springs, blasted the media for its "unconscionable" reporting of "a rumor like this based on nothing but one man's accusation."
"Ted Haggard is a friend of mine, and it appears someone is trying to damage his reputation as a way of influencing the outcome of Tuesday's election - especially the vote on Colorado's marriage-protection amendment - which Ted strongly supports," Dobson said in a statement. " http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5115230,00.html
That isn't the full text of his statements, but i think it may not have been Dobson but actually Falwell or Robertson that specifically mentioned the Dems. then again, i seem to remember it being Dobson and can't find anything more than that at the moment. -- Chalyres 03:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
-- Ubiq 05:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is that section still titled as such, when many of these allegations have been confirmed or confessed? I suggest "Improprieties involving homosexuality and drugs." Haiduc 17:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Totally for Scandal, because it actually frees up a lot of NPOV conflict problems. Scandal gives you a bit more leverage to talk about the allegations without slipping into speculation, and since it's moving out of a current event (i DON'T think that much more info will be coming out on this, now overshadowed by the election results, etc.).-- Chalyres 03:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
What we have now is
What if we changed "Admission and removal from job" to "Aftermath" (or something close) where we can cover more than just Haggard's removal. There has been quite a bit written about Haggard's confession, criticisms and prominant evangelical leaders have weighed in on the subject.
Second point - What if we changed "Haggard's response" to "Response to allegations" so we can more clearly cover more than just Haggard's reactions? So we'd end up with:
I think these changes would allow us to cover more than just the "he said she said" between Jones and Haggard.
Thoughts, concerns, opinions? Can I get a witness? Mr Christopher 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of other things that could be added to the political ideology section, and it seems important to expand it. One of the reasons everyone even heard of the allegations in the first place was his impact on politics and the vast amount of interviews he was giving, as well as the Harper's and other's articles about him focusing on his politics. However, something really important ought to be discussed--in some of haggard's interviews, he seems to make it clear that his "pro-free market" stance is actually part of his theology. One important source here is Christopher's Lydon's Open Source, an NPR blog-styled radio discussion program. Furthermore, there is such a blending of politics and theology in some of the most well-known evangelical figures. Witness Falwell's remarks about gays and lesbians right after 9-11. was that a theological statement or a political statement? I argue it would be both, and such would be the case with Haggard's remarks. Part of this might just be that it's difficult to hear someone you look towards for spiritual advice talk about something in the political sphere and not make the connection (you consider him trustworthy already, etc.). A lot of the criticism about Haggard actually came from other christians angry over his blending of free-market capitalism, foreign intervention, and top-heavy tax cuts with his biblical stance. It'll probably be a lot of work, but it'd be interesting and would help put the scandal in context, too. http://www.radioopensource.org/index.php?s=haggard, audio file from dec 19th (christian america). -- Chalyres 21:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
That section starts with Haggard's initial denials and I think we should include the initial reaction of various leaders in the evangelical community (and any other noteworthy ones for that matter, be they christian or not). Then go back into focussing on Haggard's specific responses we now see beginning in the remaining paragraphs. I'll try and add more to it this evening. Mr Christopher 21:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Can be found here Enjoy! Mr Christopher 18:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I know this is a emotionally/polititally charged subject but I really object to us categorizing him as gay or bisexual. The fact that someone has sex with the same sex does not mean they consider themselves to be gay or lesbian. Haggard has not admitted to being gay or bisexual so us putting him in that category is an act of outing on our part in my opinion. Is it wiki policy to add every person who has same sex relations to be added to those categories? Is the mainstream media referring to Haggard as a homosexual? I'm not trying to defend haggard, I am just voicing my concers about these categories. I suspect Haggard would deny he is gay, in spite of his hobbies with Mike Jones:-) What next, do we add him to a Wiki list of drug addicts? This is just wrong in my opinion. I think adding him to those categories is very POV. Again, has Haggard claimed he is gay or bisexual? Does the mainstream media now refer to him as a gay or bisexual man? I'd like to hear the opinions of others on the subject. Mr Christopher 18:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Ditto, though one might note that he might be homosexual without being gay. Or maybe he's bi... Or maybe.... Exploding Boy 19:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm a little confused. I'm homosexual/gay/queer (i'm not even slightly confused about that part) but where does this "having homosexual sex doesn't make you gay?" come from? i think the only reason we could not call him gay in the article is because he has not admitted to it. I guess i have decidedly different ideas about outing. can someone please explain to me how one can be homosexual without being gay? It seems to be pre-supposed as axiomatic here, but i've never heard of such an idea (and neither has my queer-history master's degree partner), so i'm really lost here. -- Chalyres 21:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I hate to debate this too much, but i kind of feel like i ought to, only because i still don't understand the rationale. If you have forced homosexual or heterosexual sex, then that's rape. If you pay for homosexual sex monthly for three years, i think that's something different. The category "gay" is a difficult one, i'll admit (i usually refer to myself as anarchoqueer, but we're not talking about me), but i think the much larger issue here is the indentification of homosex as an abberation within a specific context. within a religious-cultural context that sees homosex as fallen, unnatural, etc, in which it can be "changed" and is not a default preference, than having gay sex all you want still doesn't make you gay as long as you repent or "fought against" it. What i'm arguing is this. The only NPOV reason to not label Haggard as gay is that so far the accusations are un-admitted. IF Haggard had sex with the man as often as is claimed, then there would be nothing biased about calling him gay or bisexual. -- Chalyres 22:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
" Gay" is an identity. Being gay suggests an exclusive attraction to members of one's own sex, and at least some type of identification with the large gay culture. If Haggard identifies as "gay," then he's been doing a good job of hiding it, and he hasn't said so publicly. A homosexual is someone who is more or less exclusively attracted to members of his or her own sex; we don't know if that's the case with Haggard or not, since, again, he hasn't said anything about it. We do know he has 5 kids, so that might make him bisexual, but again, we can't say with any certainty. In all likelihood he's deeply conflicted about his exclusive same-sex desires--that would explain the meth--and has been fighting them his entire life, partly by becoming invovled in religion. But that's simple speculation on my part. Exploding Boy 22:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
(except, of course, adding "allegedly." I'm only half-serious, by the way).
Haggard sodomized a man for 3 years while high on drugs, and you guys "have a problem with the gay" category?? ROFL!! umm... sorry but it doesn't get any more homosexual than that. 68.7.67.96 20:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
JoshuaZ is 100% correct. I'll acknowledge Savage as an RS regarding which kind of lube to use in any given situation, and even on some of the more exotic uses for hard-boiled eggs, but in terms of which labels he applies to people (and his reasons for doing so) his credibilty is somewhat diminished. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 05:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Practice and identity seem to me to be two different matters. If we had a category "hopeless closet cases", which we don't and shouldn't, I'd gladly put him in there (and lock the door). But to call a person, not an act, "gay" involves a matter of identity, and clearly Haggard does not embrace that identity. - Jmabel | Talk 01:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This section is well-written and very well referenced, but does anyone else agree that it contains sufficient allegations at this point? What's there now is good, but I think adding any more might be overkill. Just a thought...-- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 21:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Hard to say until someone adds something that we feel is redundant :-) Mr Christopher 22:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
What we have now is
Haggard believes in what is known as the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit and subscribes to the concept referred to as the Five-fold ministry – beliefs often associated with the charismatic movement. He believes that there is one, all-knowing God, and that humans were created to be with him. His beliefs reflect biblical inerrancy and biblical literalism.[9]
The link or the archived one that Matt crypto found, goes to Haggard's website. There is no mention of the "third wave" or "five-fold ministry" on Haggard's website. I googled both terms with Haggards name and I came up with what appears to be very sketchy results at best. I am not familiar with what is considered reliable christian oriented web sites and the ones I did find mentioned these concepts with Haggard's name only briefly. They read more like accusations than evidence. I did not find Haggard claiming either the third wave" or "five-fold ministry" anywhere. If we cannot find reliable sources for these claims I think we might want to remove them. My search skilles are probably not the best so maybe someone else can do a better job of supporting these claims, but again, if we cannot support the claims I think we should remove them until better evidence is found. Mr Christopher 22:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Your tubes must be broken. Haggard is a contributing author in a book called Understanding the fivefold ministry, edited by Matthew Green, ISBN 1591856221. The table of contents says he wrote chapter 21, "The Pastor and the Fivefold Ministry". I'll go look for the "third wave" stuff now. — Coelacan | talk 03:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a different issue with the theology section. This sentence: He believes that there is one, all-knowing God, and that humans were created to be with him. Isn't that just generic Christian boilerplate? Including it makes it sound as though it were distinctive, as though most other Christians don't believe this. — Coelacan | talk 21:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey Guys, I know you are all into this subject, and although wiki may not be the best place, I was wondering if you could help me out with a bit of research here; as a UC student, I am open to both sides, the pro-Haggard side (i.e. Haggard was a great pastor, but...) and the anti-Haggard side (i.e this is how power corrupts evangelicals...) and also anything in between.
"Identify an exclusive political story/scoop generated by the mainstream media. From there, track the dissemination of that story to other media (television, newspapers, online media and bloggers). Detail how the story is reshaped as it makes its way through the media, and who is doing the spinning."
If this is deemed inappropriate in any way, shape or form by you, honorable wiki users, then I am sorry, and please continiue with the discussion, and ignore this comment.
Thank You,
- UC student
Link is here: [10] says Haggard had admitted already to the ministers before any of the interviews to "sexual immorality." i think that a rethink of the homosexual allegations should be done, seeing as it seems the ministers are using code to refer to it. little logic: he is said to have had sex with a man at least 36 times (once a month for three years). He admits to sexual immorality. there are no other allegations. therfore, he had sex with a man 36 times. that makes you, at the very least, bisexual. -- Chalyres 23:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
In the last part of the section titled "Admission and removal from job" ( [11]), counseling might perhaps be pipered to re-education or thought reform... That's what comes to my mind when reading the section. Scoo 10:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Been on the mailing list for New Life Church since the scandal broke. Here's an excerpt that i received today from Ross Parsley. There is no copyright disclaimer on the email, by the way. You can also get on the email list by going to the New Life website.
while. It was a good time of sharing and healing. They've been spending
their days talking and praying together, seeing a counselor, and working
toward the restoration process. Over the next several weeks and months,
they will receive in-depth ministry that will tend to their emotional,
physical, and spiritual well-being. Ted remains humbly submitted to the
authority of the overseers, and he and Gayle are trusting God for
healing and direction. Be assured that the trustees and overseers are making
wise decisions to ensure they are taken care of in every way. Ted and
Gayle asked me to tell you how much they love and appreciate you and
your prayers during this difficult time for them. Please continue to pray
for their family.'
--
Chalyres
02:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
It would be interesting to see if anyone could find information on the content of Bill Bright's sermon that Haggard heard at age sixteen when it is said that his views (obviously not his actions) turned to those of fundamental born-again Christianity. Maybe there is a connection to the "sexual immorality" that he's "been warring against" from the time of reaching adulthood and the time when he first espoused those beliefs (although, again, not actions).
Just on a personal note, it seems that those with the most extreme demonising views against any particular thing are almost always those that actually endulge in the very deed themselves, but have never reconciled it. They then compensate the guilt by forcefully crusading against it. People that are just against something but have not themselves ever done it, don't ever seem to radicals about whatever the issue is. Al-Andalus 03:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, according to the article, our boy Ted is from Indiana. But, wait, he's also from Colorado. And he's also from Baton Rouge (Louisiana). Just how many places can he come from? Do we add him to every geographic area that he's ever lived in? Seems like he should only "be from" (people from ____) one place, the place where he was born, no? Or am I mistaken? Mr Christopher 00:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
(I can't believe that I'm writing this...) An anonymous person from 70.39.4.252 changed the description of Ted Haggard's sex with Mike Jones from anal sex to oral sex. Is there a resource that has what kind of sex Mike Jones allegedly had with Ted Haggard? Chip Unicorn 05:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
i prefer anal. (sorry, that was begging to happen). the allegations are definitely of anal, though i'm sure there was probably some oral sex. we could just make it "sodomy," but unfortunately, that applies to hets as well as homos. i think it's funny someone changed it, though. i really don't care one way or the other. -- Chalyres 01:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The source says "about six young college guys ranging from 18 to 22 in age". It did not mention twinks (blonds with little hair and swimmers bodies, etc). For us to define what Haggard's fanatasies are is to indulge in POV. Mr Christopher 05:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Common parlance suggests "twinks" can also have brown, black, or red hair. I think the only requirements is that they be thin, young, and annoyingly stupid. Is there a wiki entry for twink yet? -- Chalyres 00:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Check the edit history on the article, it used to link to a twink article which I reverted for the reasons above. Question - what makes them annoyingly stupid? Mr Christopher 04:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
twinks are the gay equivalent of dumb easy girls. personally, i tend to call them "matress mops." nevermind. -- Chalyres 11:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't have the pop up thing and don't have the time right now to revert everything he'she is writing Mr Christopher 17:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
nevermind...didn't realise the vandal was erasing the aforementioned "repulsive and dark" comment. how annoying after all this collective work. -- Chalyres 11:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The opening paragraph of a biography should avoid detailed scandal information. While it's common to start out that way after a scandal breaks, eventually the biography goes back to being more encylopedic. We have a scandal section under Ted Haggard. Putting in the same information twice is unnecessary. Most scandals aren't contained in the opening biography paragraph, although in this case I can understand it. See Gary Hart or Hugh Grant for examples. 66.75.8.138 16:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. WP:LEAD says, "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and describing its notable controversies, if there are any. It should be between one and four paragraphs long, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear and accessible style so that the reader is encouraged to read the rest of the article." We should not simply mention "oh and he resigned amidst controversy" and leave it at that. The lead should be a mini-article, and considering that this is now Haggard's primary source of notability, it makes sense to give a detailed summary of the controversy before the table of contents. I don't think the lead is problematic at this time. The reader should be able to glean from the lead: what the allegations were, why the allegations were made, whether they were true, and how the incident affected his life and career. There may be room to add more detail of Haggard's non-scandal life to the lead, for some balance, but I don't see anything that should be taken out. — coelacan talk — 17:31, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ted Haggard/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Holy geez, I ran into this entry on 11/2 after reading an 11/2 article about Haggard's -r-a-n-k-h-y-p-o-c-r-a-c-y- err, I mean recent problems. Much to my amazement and respect, the author has already updated this page on, you guessed it, 11/2. Outstanding! (nice article, besides it's uncanny currency). |
Last edited at 01:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:50, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ted Haggard/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Holy geez, I ran into this entry on 11/2 after reading an 11/2 article about Haggard's -r-a-n-k-h-y-p-o-c-r-a-c-y- err, I mean recent problems. Much to my amazement and respect, the author has already updated this page on, you guessed it, 11/2. Outstanding! (nice article, besides it's uncanny currency). |
Last edited at 01:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC).
Substituted at 21:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |