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This article should be reassessed. Ted Frank of the neoconservative AEI vetted Sarah Palin. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] I tried adding a section about that to the article, which seems a lot more important than the stuff that was in there, and was told it couldn't be included because there are "next to no sources" and that I made "invalid edits". Why are the edits invalid? Doesn't it violate NPOV to mention a radio interview but not the two most notable news stories about Frank? There's also lengthy discussion about a case Frank lost without mentioning that Frank lost the case. There is a large mismatch between what reliable sources say about Frank and what the article says about Frank. There's uncited stuff praising Frank, but my cite-needed tags were removed without explanation. I have complained about NPOV in this article several times. 64.55.78.101 ( talk)
Again I ask you to stop with the conspiracy theories and address exactly what you want altered. You are bringing to light sources which were only published last week. Write in bullet points on the article talk page exactly what you want added and reliable sources to back it up and I'll respond and change/add it if I think its correct. Which case did he lose where it isn't mentioned. Contrary to your belief, nobody is hiding anything and it may just be you are more familiar with Ted's work than I am. I belief I wrote a pretty good article based on the sources I had at the time and I think its clearly GA quality and I'm sure others would agree. Some adjustments can be made to meet your concerns, but please stop with the attacks. The article would not have passed GA if it was strongly a POV.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Right I looked at your edits exactly and the majority of its was inappropriate.
" In 2004, Frank won $215,000 investing in Greg Raymer in that year's World Series of Poker. Frank used the money to leave the full-time practice of law and engage in writing. But he lost thousands of dollars betting on the movement of Wal-Mart stock in the aftermath of Wal-Mart v. Dukes when he incorrectly predicted the result of the case. rank "comes across as more of an eccentric professor than a crusading lawyer." [1] He "has slicked-back hair, favors dark suits, and looks altogether like a member of the Federalist Society, which he is." [2] This is unencyclopedic trivia. Its none of our business what he does with his money and its unrelated to what is encyclopedic, his legal career. It is inappropriate to take swipes at his appearance. The one solid point I can see is that GQ has recently cited the document as the most infamous in vetting history. I've added that to the article and I agree it should now have its own section. But you state "the public perception that it was a failure" is POV and a gross generalization.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
With all due respect Tony you also thought Justin Bieber on Twitter was encyclopedic... I have taken the time to evaluate things and agree with much of what 64.55.78.101 has done, except he seems to be confusing information about work Frank has contributed to books and newspapers as somehow a POV and I don't think we should speculate on what his future job might be. The way he has edited makes it look as if he's a vandal. its a pity he couldn't approach me first time in a more constructive manner without the attacks and conspiracy theories. Must be the salt getting to his head.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
"Blofeld is so intent on promoting Frank". Um, my motive for doing so? You say "People who are really notable don't have unencyclopedic content about talks on college campus and right-wing radio shows, unless you're trying to write an advertisement, ". So your motive then is to prove he is more notable by increasing the profile of the vetting case and diminishing other things he's done because articles on really notable legal figures, more notable than Frank ignore it too? Is this actually Ted Frank himself? Because your motive here is starting to look as if you are actually trying to raise his profile and disguising it with the added criticism. Link me three reliable sources which state that the "public perception is that the vetting was a failure" and I'll add it to the article. See the diff anyway, you got what you wanted, just show me the sources for stating the above.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
So your motives for trying to delist this article and add a lot of criticism are purely political and a conflict of interest then? I figured there was some motive behind your actions, as this doesn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell of being delisted. Not really, if you google book search Ted Frank Palin and Ted Frank vetting the only source that turns up on a quick check is the 2011 book which wasn't there at the time of writing. And there is no mention of Ted Frank in that LA Times article from 2008. I'm sorry you live in a legal world where everything is suspicious and belligerent. I had the choice to be a lawyer myself but I feared turning into a cynical paranoid bastard.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Even added a quote. Still protecting him? Ah I see, that explains why sources have suddenly come to light on the 2008 vetting with the 2012 election coming up in November. Believe you me, there was nothing which extensively discussed Ted Frank and Palin's vetting when I wrote it. And most of my fellow editors know I'm one of the best researchers we have and frequently find sources to support articles which are facing deletion which others struggle to find. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
"Are you going to add reliable sources for the uncited praise and other original research about Franks expertise". And what might that be? Specialist on tort reform sourced. Other issues he is concerned with are sourced without saying he is an "expert".♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
One reason that this article needs reassessment is that it is internally inconsistent. The Grand Theft Auto case is discussed in two different sections of the article and in two different ways as if whoever wrote the second section was unaware of the first section. Where should we consolidate them? The case was in 2008, but its in the Class Action Center section, though the article says that Frank founded the Class Action Center in 2009. It reads out of place in both places unless one reads the underlying articles.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203554104577002190221107960.html says But he didn't start objecting to class-action settlements until 2008, when he found himself a member of a class himself. The allegation: that Take-Two Interactive Software Inc., TTWO +4.24% the maker of the videogame "Grand Theft Auto," had defrauded consumers by including on the game disc some software code that contained illicit scenes. Mr. Frank objected to the settlement between the class and Take-Two, which gave class members a partial refund on their games but gave the plaintiffs' lawyers a seven-figure fee. The judge rejected the settlement on other grounds, but the case prompted Mr. Frank to switch his emphasis, and the following year, he launched his current organization, the Center for Class Action Fairness.
http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/unsettling_advocate/ says Frank’s efforts to create the center were spurred by his objection to a $1 million settlement for attorney fees (less than $30,000 was allocated to class members) for In re Grand Theft Auto Video Game Consumer Litigation. Frank was a member of the class objecting to sexual depictions in the video game. The trial judge decertified the class, and that decision is being appealed.
http://www.setexasrecord.com/arguments/235378-legally-speaking-hardly-a-class-act Several years ago, Frank-at his own expense-traveled to New York and filed an objection to a proposed class action settlement involving the video game "Grand Theft Auto." Spurred by complaints about excessive sexual content in the game, class action attorneys sued its makers, Take Two Interactive Software. Although the software giant had received only $27,000 in claims from irate consumers, it agreed to a settlement in which the plaintiffs' lawyers themselves would collect a cool $1 million. Frank's objection succeeded, and the settlement was halted and the class decertified (the plaintiffs' lawyers appealed the ruling). Bolstered by this success, Frank was inspired to found the Center for Class Action Fairness, a nonprofit group that represents consumers contesting class action settlements.
http://www.americanlawyer.com/PubArticleTAL.jsp?id=1202484335985&A_Conversation_With_Class_Action_Objector_Ted_Frank Ted Frank's purchase of a Grand Theft Auto video game eventually led him to quit his fellowship at the American Enterprise Institute and devote himself to objecting to class actions settlements that he believes are orchestrated mainly to enrich plaintiffs lawyers.
That explains why its in the Class Action Center section, but then it shouldn't be in the tort reform section. The article has random unattributed quotes from random articles without regard to whether the Frank-enstein-result is coherent, and whoever gave it a GA didnt read it carefully. A rewrite is needed before it gets a GA. 64.55.78.101 ( talk) 22:30, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
The GA reviewer did review it properly but like myself he is not a legal expert as you so obviously are. The article was and is fairly well written and GA quality. But it might have placed too much emphasis on some issues and not given a full picture of others to a level considered great to a legal professional but is generally acceptable to the average wikipedia reader, myself included. This is why experts are needed in so many fields to improve wikipedia and to see that certain issued aren't overlooked and that is it as accurate and balanced as possible. So you can't expect either him or myself to be aware of certain things. The article won't be demoted, trust me on that. But you are free to make the improvements that you feel would improve the article so long as you fill out sources adequately with publisher and date/author info and don't go the other way and make the article a scathing criticism. Yes ideally the Grand Theft Auto coverage should be addressed in one paragraph, but there was some overlap in discussing issues and cases.♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
This page is just like any other talk page and it should not be blanked or deleted except in certain circumstances. This does not seem to be one of those circumstances. I think the best solution would be for 64.55.78.101 or another editor to say exactly which of the criteria this fails and how it can be fixed. The aim is to always keep the article at GA. Then this should be closed just like any other re-assessment and recorded in the article history. This appears to be challenging the articles broadness and neutrality, but it needs to state specifically how it fails these criteria. You might also want to read this essay, the standards for Good articles are not really that high. There is a citation need tag that was present before this started that should be sorted out at least. AIRcorn (talk) 10:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
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This article should be reassessed. Ted Frank of the neoconservative AEI vetted Sarah Palin. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] I tried adding a section about that to the article, which seems a lot more important than the stuff that was in there, and was told it couldn't be included because there are "next to no sources" and that I made "invalid edits". Why are the edits invalid? Doesn't it violate NPOV to mention a radio interview but not the two most notable news stories about Frank? There's also lengthy discussion about a case Frank lost without mentioning that Frank lost the case. There is a large mismatch between what reliable sources say about Frank and what the article says about Frank. There's uncited stuff praising Frank, but my cite-needed tags were removed without explanation. I have complained about NPOV in this article several times. 64.55.78.101 ( talk)
Again I ask you to stop with the conspiracy theories and address exactly what you want altered. You are bringing to light sources which were only published last week. Write in bullet points on the article talk page exactly what you want added and reliable sources to back it up and I'll respond and change/add it if I think its correct. Which case did he lose where it isn't mentioned. Contrary to your belief, nobody is hiding anything and it may just be you are more familiar with Ted's work than I am. I belief I wrote a pretty good article based on the sources I had at the time and I think its clearly GA quality and I'm sure others would agree. Some adjustments can be made to meet your concerns, but please stop with the attacks. The article would not have passed GA if it was strongly a POV.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Right I looked at your edits exactly and the majority of its was inappropriate.
" In 2004, Frank won $215,000 investing in Greg Raymer in that year's World Series of Poker. Frank used the money to leave the full-time practice of law and engage in writing. But he lost thousands of dollars betting on the movement of Wal-Mart stock in the aftermath of Wal-Mart v. Dukes when he incorrectly predicted the result of the case. rank "comes across as more of an eccentric professor than a crusading lawyer." [1] He "has slicked-back hair, favors dark suits, and looks altogether like a member of the Federalist Society, which he is." [2] This is unencyclopedic trivia. Its none of our business what he does with his money and its unrelated to what is encyclopedic, his legal career. It is inappropriate to take swipes at his appearance. The one solid point I can see is that GQ has recently cited the document as the most infamous in vetting history. I've added that to the article and I agree it should now have its own section. But you state "the public perception that it was a failure" is POV and a gross generalization.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
With all due respect Tony you also thought Justin Bieber on Twitter was encyclopedic... I have taken the time to evaluate things and agree with much of what 64.55.78.101 has done, except he seems to be confusing information about work Frank has contributed to books and newspapers as somehow a POV and I don't think we should speculate on what his future job might be. The way he has edited makes it look as if he's a vandal. its a pity he couldn't approach me first time in a more constructive manner without the attacks and conspiracy theories. Must be the salt getting to his head.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
"Blofeld is so intent on promoting Frank". Um, my motive for doing so? You say "People who are really notable don't have unencyclopedic content about talks on college campus and right-wing radio shows, unless you're trying to write an advertisement, ". So your motive then is to prove he is more notable by increasing the profile of the vetting case and diminishing other things he's done because articles on really notable legal figures, more notable than Frank ignore it too? Is this actually Ted Frank himself? Because your motive here is starting to look as if you are actually trying to raise his profile and disguising it with the added criticism. Link me three reliable sources which state that the "public perception is that the vetting was a failure" and I'll add it to the article. See the diff anyway, you got what you wanted, just show me the sources for stating the above.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
So your motives for trying to delist this article and add a lot of criticism are purely political and a conflict of interest then? I figured there was some motive behind your actions, as this doesn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell of being delisted. Not really, if you google book search Ted Frank Palin and Ted Frank vetting the only source that turns up on a quick check is the 2011 book which wasn't there at the time of writing. And there is no mention of Ted Frank in that LA Times article from 2008. I'm sorry you live in a legal world where everything is suspicious and belligerent. I had the choice to be a lawyer myself but I feared turning into a cynical paranoid bastard.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Even added a quote. Still protecting him? Ah I see, that explains why sources have suddenly come to light on the 2008 vetting with the 2012 election coming up in November. Believe you me, there was nothing which extensively discussed Ted Frank and Palin's vetting when I wrote it. And most of my fellow editors know I'm one of the best researchers we have and frequently find sources to support articles which are facing deletion which others struggle to find. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
"Are you going to add reliable sources for the uncited praise and other original research about Franks expertise". And what might that be? Specialist on tort reform sourced. Other issues he is concerned with are sourced without saying he is an "expert".♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
One reason that this article needs reassessment is that it is internally inconsistent. The Grand Theft Auto case is discussed in two different sections of the article and in two different ways as if whoever wrote the second section was unaware of the first section. Where should we consolidate them? The case was in 2008, but its in the Class Action Center section, though the article says that Frank founded the Class Action Center in 2009. It reads out of place in both places unless one reads the underlying articles.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203554104577002190221107960.html says But he didn't start objecting to class-action settlements until 2008, when he found himself a member of a class himself. The allegation: that Take-Two Interactive Software Inc., TTWO +4.24% the maker of the videogame "Grand Theft Auto," had defrauded consumers by including on the game disc some software code that contained illicit scenes. Mr. Frank objected to the settlement between the class and Take-Two, which gave class members a partial refund on their games but gave the plaintiffs' lawyers a seven-figure fee. The judge rejected the settlement on other grounds, but the case prompted Mr. Frank to switch his emphasis, and the following year, he launched his current organization, the Center for Class Action Fairness.
http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/unsettling_advocate/ says Frank’s efforts to create the center were spurred by his objection to a $1 million settlement for attorney fees (less than $30,000 was allocated to class members) for In re Grand Theft Auto Video Game Consumer Litigation. Frank was a member of the class objecting to sexual depictions in the video game. The trial judge decertified the class, and that decision is being appealed.
http://www.setexasrecord.com/arguments/235378-legally-speaking-hardly-a-class-act Several years ago, Frank-at his own expense-traveled to New York and filed an objection to a proposed class action settlement involving the video game "Grand Theft Auto." Spurred by complaints about excessive sexual content in the game, class action attorneys sued its makers, Take Two Interactive Software. Although the software giant had received only $27,000 in claims from irate consumers, it agreed to a settlement in which the plaintiffs' lawyers themselves would collect a cool $1 million. Frank's objection succeeded, and the settlement was halted and the class decertified (the plaintiffs' lawyers appealed the ruling). Bolstered by this success, Frank was inspired to found the Center for Class Action Fairness, a nonprofit group that represents consumers contesting class action settlements.
http://www.americanlawyer.com/PubArticleTAL.jsp?id=1202484335985&A_Conversation_With_Class_Action_Objector_Ted_Frank Ted Frank's purchase of a Grand Theft Auto video game eventually led him to quit his fellowship at the American Enterprise Institute and devote himself to objecting to class actions settlements that he believes are orchestrated mainly to enrich plaintiffs lawyers.
That explains why its in the Class Action Center section, but then it shouldn't be in the tort reform section. The article has random unattributed quotes from random articles without regard to whether the Frank-enstein-result is coherent, and whoever gave it a GA didnt read it carefully. A rewrite is needed before it gets a GA. 64.55.78.101 ( talk) 22:30, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
The GA reviewer did review it properly but like myself he is not a legal expert as you so obviously are. The article was and is fairly well written and GA quality. But it might have placed too much emphasis on some issues and not given a full picture of others to a level considered great to a legal professional but is generally acceptable to the average wikipedia reader, myself included. This is why experts are needed in so many fields to improve wikipedia and to see that certain issued aren't overlooked and that is it as accurate and balanced as possible. So you can't expect either him or myself to be aware of certain things. The article won't be demoted, trust me on that. But you are free to make the improvements that you feel would improve the article so long as you fill out sources adequately with publisher and date/author info and don't go the other way and make the article a scathing criticism. Yes ideally the Grand Theft Auto coverage should be addressed in one paragraph, but there was some overlap in discussing issues and cases.♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
This page is just like any other talk page and it should not be blanked or deleted except in certain circumstances. This does not seem to be one of those circumstances. I think the best solution would be for 64.55.78.101 or another editor to say exactly which of the criteria this fails and how it can be fixed. The aim is to always keep the article at GA. Then this should be closed just like any other re-assessment and recorded in the article history. This appears to be challenging the articles broadness and neutrality, but it needs to state specifically how it fails these criteria. You might also want to read this essay, the standards for Good articles are not really that high. There is a citation need tag that was present before this started that should be sorted out at least. AIRcorn (talk) 10:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)