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Uhh. So... is he a psychopath? I've read the articles on Psychopathy, Antisocial Personality Disorder, Hare Psychopathy Checklist, etc. And even though colloquially, his name is a synonym for "psychopath", I'm not entirely sure, at least from reading this article, that he meets the criteria. Obviously he was a sociopath, for he was a violent serial killer. And he was manipulative and superficially charming, which is characteristic of psychopathy.
But sections of this article seem to suggest that he because a serial killer because of his break up. Like, he loved someone so much that losing her made him evil. I would object to such a stance, of course, but is there any evidence to support that hypothesis? It would rely on the assumption that he could love, or at least be affected by the loss or departure of a "loved" one. And if he were a psychopath, wouldn't he simply calculate whether he needed Stephanie Brooks, and if he concluded that he did, manipulate her to stay? The "Pathology" section cites one source who says Bundy was a manic depressive whose crimes usually occurred during his depressive episodes. How much merit is there to this assessment? And would that diagnosis rule out psychopathy or is there co-morbidity? Additionally, nowhere in the article is there a claim of sadism, does that mean that he was sanguinary not because he derived pleasure from women's pain but for a different reason?
I know Wikipedia is about quotation, not original research, so I'm not asking for breaking news or new info; I'm simply curious as to whether more information can be found regarding the subject: Is there a consensus on his motivations and psychopathology?
Also, how has public perception of his life and his crimes changed over time? This article would benefit from answering those questions, I think. In the "Conviction and Execution" section, it's stated that "writing in 1992, Ressler said of Bundy that 'This guy was an animal, and it amazed me that the media seemed unable to understand that'" Does this mean that at the time there was sympathy for Bundy in the media? Is there sympathy today?
Well, I hope someone reads my rant. I guess in a nutshell I'm just saying, "WTF, I'm even more confused now." -- Plavalagunanbanshee ( talk) 03:29, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
According to Criminal Justice Today; an Introductory Text for the 21st Century, by Frank Schmallger, published by Pearson, a sociopath is simply a different name for a psychopath. They are defined as a person whose defining characteristic is the inability to accurately imagine how others think and feel. So, sure he may have gotten hurt from the break up or damaged from his addiction to porn. However, the fact that he didn't care nor feel for his victims proves him to be a psychopath/sociopath. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.71.16.41 ( talk) 01:06, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Hi all, just a quick question. In the lead in the third paragraph is this sentence; The victim, once near or inside his rusty, light-bronze Volkswagen Beetle, would be overpowered, bludgeoned, sexually assaulted, and strangled, then transported to a secondary site (often a significant distance away) and dumped. I have a problem with this sentence because it sounds as if he did these things to all of his victims which he didn't. My problem is I can think of anything to correct it the way I want it to be. ;) The only thing I can think of is an and/or at the last and which of course won't do. It could be that I'm just not awake enough yet so I'll try to come back here and see if I can look at this again. But I'd be open to ideas too. Be well all, -- CrohnieGal Talk 10:25, 13 April 2011 (UTC) just want to say the work done of late has been great though less reliance on Rule for sources should be attempted though I too love her work, I have to get her rewrite.
Hi there. It's been a while since I've been to this article and I saw that it's gotten a bit messy, so I cleaned it up. I removed a fair amount of pointless natter, including various opinions by Ann Rule, irrelevant details of the relationship between Bundy and Kloepfer, and nattering about the psychology of serial killers in general. I also took out at least three factual errors: the assertion that the plea bargain in Florida came during the trial (it was before), the assertion that Levy and Bowman were roommates (they weren't), and the assertion that Boone only left Florida and Bundy when he started confessing at the end (she left in 1986). Vidor ( talk) 02:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, just because something is strongly referenced doesn't mean it is useful for the article. Ann Rule's comment about how her dog didn't like Bundy is solidly referenced to The Stranger Beside Me, but it doesn't seem particularly relevant to the article, so I deleted it. Ditto the bit from Rule's book about the psychic, which really isn't useful at all. And not all of it was reliably sourced--namely, the bit about the daughter and the link to the Serial Killers gallery and the Polaroid of Ted, Carole, and the little girl. I've seen that picture and it certainly LOOKS like Ted and Carole, and I for one believe that it's genuine, but AFAIK it's never been reliably sourced. I have never seen that picture in any of the Bundy biographies or any website that one might regard as a reliable source (like the Crime Library). And in any case, even if the picture was reliably sourced, the degree to which a toddler resembled Ted Bundy isn't of relevance to the article. Carole said the girl was Ted's baby, Ted believed it was his baby, and that's all we need to know. (It does make one wonder where that little girl is now, almost 29 years old, and whether or not she even knows who her father was.) I'd support adding the picture itself to the article if we could reliably source it and figure out some kind of appropriate license (fair use?). And speaking of pictures, I'm not sure how useful the sentencing document is. It's interesting, but does it clutter up the article? Ditto the picture of the Pitkin County Courthouse--I took that picture myself and added it to the article but now that I look at it I wonder if it should go. Vidor ( talk) 04:32, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't see the need for "get consensus before removing sourced content", to be honest. If something is boring it is boring, and if something is pointless it is pointless, and that's true whether it's sourced or not. I can find a good source giving the names and the birthdates of all of Ted's siblings. That wouldn't make the article better. And if it's going to be FA status, it needs to focus on the relevant details of Ted Bundy's life and crimes. So Elizabeth Kloepfer visited him in the Utah jail. True. Verifiable. Sourced. Who cares? The article needs to focus on Bundy and his crimes. We don't need to say that Liz thought they were both alcoholics, general theorizing about the nature of sociopaths should be in the article on sociopaths rather than here, "enrolled" is a better word than "matriculated", etc.
Regarding Carole Ann Boone, the sources appear to disagree. My 2000 Signet paperback edition of "The Stranger Beside Me" specifically says that Boone "never came back" after leaving Florida in 1986. (page 494) On page 532, she further states that "Carole Ann Boone did not visit." Polly Nelson, in her book, says on page 114 that Boone's move back to Washington was "permanent" (page 114). On page 306 she recounts her last conversation with Ted, in which he says he doesn't even think Carole will call. On page 271 she notes that "Neither Carole nor Louise came to Florida for the execution." Nelson, of course, was actually there at the scene. For that matter, I have two editions of "The Only Living Witness", the 1999 version that I originally used when editing and a 1989 paperback that I obtained later. The 1989 paperback honestly is a much better book; it's longer and contains more material, has some pictures, and does not suffer from the printing errors of the ultra-cheapo 1999 edition. The 1989 paperback does not contain the bit about Boone leaving the prison in tears. I think the preponderance of the evidence is that Boone was not there. Can we find any contemporary evidence, like 1989 newspaper articles? Vidor ( talk) 18:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any rule that says I can't edit whatever I want. As for alcohol being an important factor, that was already in the article. It already included Ted saying that he drank alcohol to pump himself up, and Carol DaRonch's testimony that she smelled alcohol on Ted's breath. Ted being an alcoholic is of questionable relevance to the article, and Liz being an alcoholic is certainly of no relevance to the article. Not to mention that Liz Kloepfer was a secretary and not qualified to make a diagnosis of alcoholism.
I noted several places in the article where bits from Liz's book had been added in. I got ahold of a library copy of "The Phantom Prince" and read it, and my impression at the time was that there wasn't much in it of use. Most of the more interesting stories Liz tells--Ted throwing her off a dock, Ted threatening to break her neck, Ted having plaster of paris in his room--was covered in other books. The rest of it was tales of a dysfunctional relationship. Other than her account of the letter Ted sent her from jail in Colorado, the one where he talks about people who radiate vulnerability, there wasn't much in that book that was relevant to the article.
We should probably ask ourselves how long this article needs to be. It has grown by 30,000 bytes in 2011, nearly a 50% increase, and I'm not sure how much of that is useful. Vidor ( talk) 00:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Eventually he discovered the truth, but how and when is not clear: he told biographers Stephen Michaud and Hugh Aynesworth that one day a cousin called him a "bastard", and then to prove it, showed him a copy of his birth certificate that he had found; [1] but biographer and true crime writer Ann Rule, who knew Bundy personally, believes he did not find unequivocal proof until he tracked down his original birth record in Vermont in 1969, after a traumatic breakup with his college girlfriend.
guess you didn't read the book very carefully It wasn't a very good book. And like I said above, I wasn't reading for details of Ted and Liz's relationship that had no bearing on the crimes. As for Diannaa's quote above, I think it's typical of the wordiness and poor flow that have crept into the article. Vidor ( talk) 20:32, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and thanks to Diannaa for seeing what I'm trying to do here--make the article shorter, more relevant, and more readable by excising extraneous material. I think we have everything we need well-sources in at least one of the books in the Bundy canon. Now all the article needs is editing. Vidor ( talk) 20:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Let me know if you disagree. I do. I don't think the article mentions more than what it had before, re: Liz, "Stephanie" (t/n Diane Edwards), and Carole--Liz called the cops on him, Edwards may have been a motivating factor in his murder spree, and Carole bore him a daughter. That's enough. As for a table--eh, whichever you think looks better. Vidor ( talk) 23:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes we can leave out the "Pathology" section entirely. And we probably should. I'd like to cut this article by at least 30%. I can't see how Bundy's manipulation of women is relevant to the article. Ted Bundy isn't notable because he manipulated women. He's notable because he killed thirty of them (at least).
You are quite correct about the irrationality of Bundy's escape attempts. In the Campbell murder, really all they had was a hair from the VW that matched Campbell (this b/f the DNA era; at the time hair analysis was not determinative in the way that fingerprint analysis was), gas receipts that placed him in the area, and Bundy's lie about never having been to Colorado to impeach him with. They had a witness who apparently saw Bundy at the Wildwood but she identified the wrong person in court. He stood a pretty good chance of beating the rap. Now this is a part of the article where material about sociopathy might actually be relevant. Among the signs of sociopathy are impulsivity and poor behavorial controls and an inability to understand the consequences of one's actions. That would seem to imply why Ted foolishly escaped twice from prison in Colorado. It also probably explains his suicidally reckless behavior in Florida when he probably could have stayed free indefinitely if he'd found some kind of job and laid low long enough to get a fake ID.
I can't agree that there were any grounds for indicting Boone as an accessory. They simply didn't have any proof that she knew of his escape. We still don't know how much of that $500 she actually gave him. Vidor ( talk) 07:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I base the 30% figure on the fact that in just one month, since late March of this year, this article has metastasized from 70,000 bytes to 100,000 bytes. I really don't see how much of this was useful. We don't need to write that Liz visited Ted in prison. Liz thinking Ted was an alcoholic is not relevant and does not make the article better. Information on the general nature of psychopathology belongs in the article on psychopathology, not the article on Ted Bundy. As for his manipulation of women, back before the article grew by 30,000 bytes for no particular reason, it already noted that he dated Liz throughtout his murder spree in Washington and that he got Carole to marry him and bear his child while he was on Death Row. How much more do we need? Vidor ( talk) 07:32, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, there's my latest edit. 3,000 bytes removed as opposed to 10,000 bytes removed when I visited the article a few days ago. I changed the detail about Carole Ann Boone's departure again. As noted above, while the sources do not agree, at least two out of the three state specifically that she never returned after leaving Florida. One of those two sources is Polly Nelson who was actually there in Bundy's last days. I removed the bit about the photo of Ted, Carole, and the little girl--again, that photo has never been definitively sourced, and even if it were, opinions on how much the little girl resembled Ted are pure speculation. We still don't need to know who was visiting Bundy in the Utah jail. The bit about Rodney Alcala has to go. And I think that both the Robertson and Cooley entries should go under "possible additional victims" because Ted did not confess by name to either of those crimes. Vidor ( talk) 08:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Another example: the killing began after Brooks's rejection, which everyone agrees devastated him. So why is the concept of rejection irrelevant to the article? Makes no sense. Well, I'd say the chronology is shaky there. "Brooks"/Edwards dumped him in--what, 1968? I forget. And he did not start killing in earnest until 1974. And for that matter I don't recall anywhere that Ted said Stephanie dumping him led him on a path to murder. I agree that we should have info about Stephanie dumping him. What else do we need? As for the article length, if we want to cut further and we are worried about IMDb as a source, we could simply delete the section about Ted Bundy movies. Vidor ( talk) 01:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
So I went ahead and deleted it. No "citation needed" and the article is 1400 bytes shorter. Personally I think IMDb should suffice simply to confirm that a movie exists, but I'd rather get rid of the section than have a bunch of "citation needed". Thoughts? Vidor ( talk) 02:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Recently the following claim was re-added: "Bundy was superficially handsome, charming, and charismatic, and used these qualities to full advantage." Can this claim be substantiated? Please provide sufficient evidence or an authoritative source that can confirm Bundy (i) possessed these qualities and (ii) used said qualities to full advantage. Otherwise, it just sounds like some random editor's unsubstantiated opinion, in which case it should be deleted from this article. -- 82.31.164.172 ( talk) 14:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
I have read through an exhaustive archive of this material. I've read every Ted Bundy book ever written. And they all agree on, and include testimony about, the fact that he was superficially handsome, charming, and charismatic. Ann Rule, who knew him personally before he was a murder suspect, described him as "courtly". And it does belong in the article, because it's highly relevant. Bundy's charm and sophistication was how he manipulated people, and specifically how he got intelligent young women to follow him to his car. Vidor ( talk) 20:35, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Do you know how encyclopedia articles work? I sure do! I also know that you don't appear to know very much about Ted Bundy. And you definitely don't know how to not be a jackass. Sure, there was no point in changing "colouration" to "coloration" or whatever Actually, this isn't true. Ted Bundy was an American and the article should be written in American English with appropriate American spellings. I'll have to go through and check that. Vidor ( talk) 23:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I have added a link to Multiple Personality Disorder but that directs the reader to our article on Dissociative identity disorder. Did Bundy have Dissociative identity disorder, or when you say he had multiple personality disorders are you saying he had more than one personality disorder (borderline, sociopathic, etc as quoted from Rule below)? This section may have to be re-worded as if you say he had Multiple Personality Disorder the reader will assume you meant Dissociative identity disorder. Thanks. -- Diannaa ( Talk) 04:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't think there's any convincing evidence that Bundy had multiple personality disorder. Not sure that such a disorder actually exists, frankly. Vidor ( talk) 07:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Regarding bulleted lists, I think it's essential to the article to include the list of known, identified victims. I'll defer to others on what form that should take. Vidor ( talk) 01:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
As for Multiple Personality Disorder, yes it's in the DSM-IV, but there is still debate as to whether it's real, as the Wikipedia article notes. For the purposes of this article, I'd say that we don't need to know that Ann Rule thought he was a split personality, b/c Ann Rule is no more qualified to make that diagnosis than I am, but it's valid to say in the article that Dr. Lewis made that diagnosis. Vidor ( talk) 01:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
She was his last victim, the youngest, and the one he was executed for. He deserved it ten times over. The article currently has one sentence about her murder, and it needs two more good ones that can encapsulate the event better. I'm not going to squibble about whether its a "hog" or a "pig farrowing" shed (three out of four sources I've seen call it a "hog shed" with only Rule describing it otherwise), but there are serious conflicting facts between reliable sources. Foreman and Michaud/Aynesworth say her body was found "under/beneath" a hog shed, while Rule and Sullivan state she was in the the shed; Foreman and Sullivan state that she was killed in the shed, but M/A and Rule state she was killed and then dumped there. Etc. There needs to be a brief sentence describing how she was abducted and the fact that he almost had a head-on collision after abducting her. Any input on this issue would be appreciated :> Doc talk 06:04, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I said it was better a month ago, and it was. We should have gone with the content at the end of March, fixed up and tweaked as necessary for a GA review. But that ship has sailed and I'm not going to whack 30,000 bytes from this article like I'd like to. Regarding the pig shed, there isn't much difference between "under" and "in". The hog shed wasn't actually resting on her body. What happened is that someone looked under the wall of the shed, where there was some kind of clearance between the bottom of the wall and the ground, and saw a sneaker with leg bones sticking out of it. Regarding the witness who saw Ted on the highway--pretty sure her testimony was ruled inadmissible. Regarding whether she was killed in the pigshed or just dumped there, I can't remember. It seems that I keep coming back to this article at work when I don't have my Bundy books at hand. As for the initial point, that not enough attention to the Leach murder is paid in the article, I can't agree. About as much attention is paid to the Leach murder as is to all other murders, namely, not a lot. Incidentally, George Dekle, the Leach prosecutor, has a book coming out this summer specifically dedicated to the Leach murder and investigation. We'll have to list it in the Bibliography section after it's published. Vidor ( talk) 22:37, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Vidor, Would be grateful if you could keep me informed of George Dekle's book, as we are unlikely to hear about publication in the UK. Best regards David J Johnson ( talk) 22:43, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't think Dekle feels any need for anything other than to make money. It's not like there is any doubt 31 years later that the correct verdict was reached in the Leach trial. As for what was "undermined" by defense counsel, that too is speculative. Here's what was presented as evidence in the Leach trial: 1) Bundy approaching another little girl of similar age, Leslie Parmenter, the day before 2) Leslie and her brother's testimony regarding the license plate # on the van 3) fibers found from a van with that license plate # being matched to Ted's clothing and Kimberly Leach's clothing 4) Andy Anderson's testimony regarding seeing Ted lead Kimberly Leach away from the school to the van. The article, as it stands, mentions the Parmenter incident, mentions the fiber analysis, and mentions the eyewitness (Anderson) who testified seeing Bundy with Leach. It seems like enough to me; I don't think we need to mention the eyewitness testimony twice like Doc9871 suggests above. Additionally I think that the Dekle book, when it comes out, should be the primary source we use for accounts of the Leach murder and should resolve any discrepancies between sources such as have been pointed out here. It is, after all, written by someone involved in events. (Similarly I think Polly Nelson's book and its unequivocal statement that Carole Boone did not return to Florida after 1986 should be used to resolve that dispute, since Nelson was at the scene in Bundy's final days.) Vidor ( talk) 13:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Without creating a separate section, there's another thing that needs to be addressed. The entire first paragraph under the "Modus operandi and victim profiles" section is completely unsourced, and you what we we're supposed to do in those cases. As it reads now, it could be inferred, e.g., that he always used a British accent, and the "All the victim's clothing was removed and later burned." sentence absolutely needs some kind of reference for that claim. As it is currently, it looks like a paragraph of original research. Cheers :> Doc talk 03:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi, since I've been inactive on this article since most of the new writings, I am now doing a reread of the article to see what has been done and if improvements could be needed. In the lead is this sentence "On a few occasions, largely at the beginning and end of his homicidal career, he abandoned all pretense of deception and simply broke into dwellings in the dead of night, assaulting his victims as they slept in their own beds." I think this needs sourcing but I'm not sure to be honest. My main issue is the largely at the beginning and end since I do not remember this except for the rampage he went on just prior to his arrest in FL but not the beginning of his killings. I couldn't find anything like this in the main part of the article so I am bringing it here for opinions and/or sourcing. I don't have any of the new books being used so I'm not sure where this was taken from. Thanks in advance, -- CrohnieGal Talk 13:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC) I hope my comment is clear to understand, can't seem to get my concerns properly with this writing.
My rule of thumb is to include every header in the lead in some way Yeah, that's a bad rule of thumb. Vidor ( talk) 22:09, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
More Referencing Needed: "Reports of the six missing women and Lenz's brutal beating appeared prominently in newspapers and on television throughout Washington and Oregon. Fear spread among the population; hitchhiking by young women dropped sharply. Pressure mounted on law enforcement agencies but the complete lack of physical evidence hampered them severely." These three unreferenced sentences are next to the picture of the VW Bug. Thoughts? Doc talk 05:29, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Note - While it's probably not worth mentioning in the article (and may be original research), it should interest those involved with/watching the article that many of Bundy's victims were women of short stature. While Healy, Parks and Aime were described as tall girls, Manson and Ott were a mere 5 feet tall, Rancourt and Hawkins were 5'2", Ball and Smith were 5'3", and Naslund and Campbell were 5'4". At 5'11", Bundy had a distinct advantage when selecting victims much shorter than himself. Doc talk 01:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
OK sure, lets try for some consensus: I propose to remove this sentence at the end of the lead:
My rationale is that:
eug ( talk) 14:13, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I strongly agree with the original suggestion. Remove it, and don't put it back anywhere else. And goodness, no "media reaction" section. Shorter, shorter, shorter. Vidor ( talk) 22:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Getting back to what I wrote above, here is what I'd cut.
Actually, now that I have made that list, it isn't as long as I thought it would be. I still wish the article weren't over 100K and that number could still be reduced by simple copyediting, like going through the article and seeing how much of it can be phrased in fewer words, but I'd definitely say there is quite a bit less extraneous material in here than there used to be. I'll check tomorrow to see if any of the sources indicate that Boone actually filed for divorce. I was under the impression that she simply cut ties and went back to Washington without taking any formal action to end the marriage. Vidor ( talk) 07:57, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello, my name is Kevin M. Sullivan, and I'm the author of The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History. I must say, the work that has been put into the Bundy article is very good indeed. I did want to point out that Lynette Culver was not raped prior to her death. Bundy made this clear to the Idaho investigator, and I received this information from him. As such, my book states the sexual assault occurred after she was killed. This isn't surprising, as Bundy was constantly involved with necrophilia. Now, I did not want to personally make the change to the page, as I felt that informing those who regularly edit this site should do so. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 23:15, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
After further thought, I decided to make the minor correction myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmsullivan12 ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Has anybody read a self-published book with the above title, by Wilson and Keiss? (Tracking Hound Press, 2009, ISBN-10: 0615291112) Purports to present evidence that Bundy killed some people in Columbus, Georgia en route to Tallahassee. Can't use it as a direct reference, of course, but I'm wondering if it's worth the trouble to track down a copy as deep background. Anybody had a look at it? DoctorJoeE ( talk) 23:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
"self-published"=stay away Vidor ( talk) 00:56, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
For anyone curious about this book:
official site:
http://www.bundybook.com/#/home/4533721550
author site:
http://www.timwilsonamerica.com/#/the-book/4533995820
amazon US:
http://www.amazon.com/Happy-New-Year-Revolutionary-Stranglings/dp/0615291112
VulpineLady ( talk) 03:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
I came across this article which came out last week and thought I would share it since I don't see it mentioned. Police say a backhoe operator found a body of a girl, Kerry May-Hardy, missing from Seattle since 1972. She had long dark hair parted in the middle, and apparently was naked since there is no mention of clothing, although a wedding band and "blue material" were found with her skeletal (bone) remains. The article makes mention of Bundy, but there is no proof yet that he killed her, so its only speculation at this point. Police are still looking into the events surrounding her disappearance. Here's the article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015224554_remains04m.html
Another article, with her photo and sketch as well:
http://www.co.kittitas.wa.us/press/default.asp?prID=47
Just an observation, but Kittitas County (where the bones were found) is the same county where Rancourt (in the city of Ellensburg) was abducted. May-hardy may have nothing to do with Bundy, but it was interesting at any rate. ( Anotherdaytripper ( talk) 22:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC))
The above book (about the Kim Leach trial, by the prosecutor) is finally out. I received my copy over the weekend and I'm a third of the way through it -- not a quick read, by any means -- it's written like a very long police report, and so far it repeats facts already well known, but in excruciating detail. (e.g. Bundy used Thomas Evans's credit card to pay for gas in Lake City; do we need to know that?) In the forward, Dekle states his goal as demonstrating that Bundy's confession re: how he killed Leach (suffocated her in mud as he sexually assaulted her) was a lie. If that's all the new information he's got -- and it's going to take 225 pages just to make that case -- I'm not optimistic. But I will soldier on. Cheers, DoctorJoeE ( talk) 14:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch has graciously peer-reviewed the article and his opinions can be seen here. I think it's a good review with plenty of tips on how to improve the article further, personally. I've made the changes #1, #2 & #11 that he suggested as I can't anticipate there being objections to them, and I'm hoping for input from others on the many changes he suggests. I'm working on the fourth suggested change: apparently Eleanor Louise Cowell began calling herself simply "Louise" when she had Ted's name legally changed to Theodore Robert Nelson in October of 1950 in Philadelphia (Rule 1989, p.8). Anyhoo, hopefully editors will read the peer review and put forth their opinions on it. Cheers :> Doc talk 20:04, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
In the lead, we link to the article Psychopathy via a piped link [[Psychopathy|sociopath]]. However, the terminology used today is Antisocial personality disorder. Do we want this link to direct the reader to the article Psychopathy, or the article Antisocial personality disorder? -- Diannaa ( talk) 21:18, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone believe the site would benefit from having the current picture (May 2005) of Bundy's murder kit? It is the same one taken in my home and appears in my book, is displayed at Executed Today, and I know it has been "pirated" by other sites as well. I don't care either way if it is used, but if it is of interest to those who do the bulk of the work here, then I would grant the use of it Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 23:55, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi Doc. Well, the current picture was supplied by me anyway. Not directly, of course, but I supplied it to the headsman at the website "Executed Today" for the January 24, 2009 article about Bundy. The 1975 photo that you have, at one time, displayed a hand written caption along the bottom of the photo, and that is my writing. I received this picture from Jim Massie, who received it from Jerry Thompson, the former Utah homicide detective. Anyway, if you go to the site Executed Today, you can see the picture of the items I took of Bundy's murder kit in May of 2005, and the comparison picture taken by the Utah police in 1975 (also, I have been answering questions about Bundy at ET since that time, and we just passed 3,700 Q&A's). If you have access to my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS, both pictures are contained therein. I believe my 2005 photo is the only one available of this kit besides the 1975 photo. Now, you folks are the editors here, and I certainly don't want to intrude into the fine work you all have done on this site. But thinking of other people, and their possible interest in seeing Bundy's murder kit, taken 30 years after the original (and in color) might be of some interest to them. If you all would like to have it, then I believe it should be here. If the answer is yes, then I will contact the headsman at ET and we will work out an electronic transfer, as the PC I used to write the book is long dead, and my files of the case (including photos) are now stored. In any event, it can be worked out. So just let me know. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:27, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Great. Now, should there be a consensus among editors? Also, someone (don't ask me, LOL!) will need to post it, arrange where it should be placed, etc. As I said earlier, I can have the headsman of Executed Today transfer it electronically (back to me, or to one of you), and the rest should be easy. Logistically, if you all can figure this out, I will be a happy camper. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 21:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
It's been a tad silent here, so I'm just checking in to see where we might go with the photo idea. DoctorJoeE seems to think it's a good idea, but does anyone have an opposing view? If there is a consensus that yes, the site would benefit from having it, then state so here, and I will contact ET and get this moving. Per my above comments, I will be looking to someone else to actually post it. Also,is there a way to leave a personal message for one of the editors willing to do this, as I will need to let them know (without telling the world) how to go about obtaining it? Any thoughts? Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 12:55, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
There is this: The photo in question was published by McFarland in THE BUNDY MURDERS. However, I do in fact own the photo, so does anyone see a problem with posting it here? DoctorJoeE: You said "assuming it is indeed cleared for free public use", so do you see a problem with using the photo? If you do, then I have others that I can send you that did not end up in the book. I will be contacting you, so let me know what you think. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 18:51, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
@Diannaa: There should not be a question of authenticity regarding this photo, as the source of the photo(s) (mine, taken in 2005, and the "official" one I received and is now displayed here) has been authenticated by the signatures of retired detective Jerry Thompson, and these documents are on file with the publisher. Every picture and every quote contained within the book comes with a signed release from those participating. Anyway, I just wanted to put you at ease concerning this. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 18:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, Diannaa, I wouldn't call it "lying in a heap", but rather a a collage of items displayed not as evidence (as the 1975 photo required, displaying each item in its entirety), but in a way that might be interesting to viewers. And you know, my goal was not to remove one photo to make room for another,this is why I provided ET with both pictures. The picture is in my book, it's at Executed Today, and as I said earlier, others have made use of it too. It was my intention to show viewers of the Ted Bundy site here at Wikipedia a newer, color version of the same kit. Color is a big deal to people, and it is the only other photo available of the kit; and certainly the most recent picture of Bundy's items. But as to removing one for the other, I would say the 1975 photo should be the official photo. It just makes sense. However, if anyone believes the newer photo should come on board, then just say so here, Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 21:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
The crowbar, handcuffs, and the pantyhose mask never made it to Louisville. Judge Hanson from Utah (now deceased) had the crowbar and I believe the handcuffs as well. Jerry Thompson transported the pantyhose mask personally to Florida to try to have it admitted as evidence (it was rejected)so I'm not sure where it is now. Within the bag when it came to Louisville, were five of six little tins containing pubic hair of some of the victims, and the head hair of Carol DaRonch. These were recovered from Bundy's car and all had been tested at the FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 04:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I have to vote for the black and white picture. It shows the individual items more clearly, and more importantly it shows the two most important items, the crowbar and the handcuffs, which the color photo lacks. Mr. Sullivan makes a generous offer but the B&W photo is better. Vidor ( talk) 02:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Once again, let me say that I believe that the official, 1975 photo is the most important picture between the two. The 1975 photo is actually a part of the case. The question, in my mind, has never been one of replacing the official picture with the one I took of Bundy's items in 2005. If anything, it was meant to complement the original, and provide folks with a modern, color shot of these very important artifacts. But if it's a question of either/or, then yes, the 1975 photo is the most appropriate. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:17, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:59, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
I peer reviewed this and feel it is close to FA standards and more than meets the GA criteria. For suggestions for improvement, please see Wikipedia:Peer review/Ted Bundy/archive2. I also note that the dab link finder finds one disambiguation link that needs to be fixed. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
I hope it's ok with the editors here that I added MiszaBot to archive this talk page and added a search feature to it. This talk page is huge and a lot of reader's and editor's cannot download pages if they become too big. If you see a need for adjustments or anything, please go ahead. I've not set one of these up in a long time so having what I done looked at and/or edited will never cause me hard feelings. Hope all is well, -- CrohnieGal Talk 13:51, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
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Clearly, this article is going to FA, and there's really no reason to wait in sending it to that set of judges. Ruhrfisch's excellent recommendations have all mostly been accomplished except for a scant few. I move that we address the remaining concerns in a timely manner and nominate the article at FAC. Here they are:
So, aside from those concerns being addressed I see no reason why not to push forward. This is an excellent article that has been the product of collaboration between multiple editors with diverse backgrounds. It's taken time to get it to where it is, and it's improved exponentially in recent months. I'm pushing it to FAC and hope you all are ready to go with me. Cheers :> Doc talk 04:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
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A newcomer has "spelled out" the implication that I think was perfectly obvious the way it was. Some of you will recall that I spelled it out way back when, and by consensus we removed all that, since there is no publicly-available proof that Boone's daughter was fathered by Bundy, other than that one photo I referenced, which we decided wasn't verifiable enough to be cited. Ann Rule does spell it out in the latest incarnation of her book -- that she believes Bundy fathered Boone's daughter -- but do we really need to explain that in the article? Isn't that kind of patronizing? Just asking -- I'm willing to abide by whatever the group (by whom I mean those of us who have been doing this rewrite forever) decides. Cheers, DoctorJoeE ( talk) 12:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree with you DoctorJoeE, I don't think we really need to mention the possible daughter in the article - it's not verifiable. Best regards - as always. David J Johnson ( talk) 17:00, 22 July 2011 (UTC) 22 July 2011
It isn't Wikipedia's job to make unfounded speculations. Everyone involved believed the little girl was Ted's daughter. If Boone knew differently she kept it a secret. I say we call the girl Ted's daughter, as we have no source to state otherwise, and different sources state that prisoners could arrange for sex with visitors. Vidor ( talk) 19:42, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
This article just came out today and I thought I would share it:
http://www.wftv.com/news/28727794/detail.html
a recently developed profile of Bundy's DNA is complete enough that it can (and will) be "uploaded" to the FBI national database. Investigators working on the Burr case are seeking a match. ThisLaughingGuyRightHere ( talk) 06:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Bundy did link himself to the Burr disappearance in 1987, during an interview with Ron Holmes. That information was published in the May 9, 1987 issue of the Tacoma News Tribune. In turn, I include this info in the preface of my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS. I think it's great the blood was discovered,but I doubt it will lead to any answers in the Burr case. There just wasn't any real evidence left at the crime scene. But I suppose we can hope. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 23:00, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
@DoctorJoeE" Bundy, speaking in the third person, made reference to a person involved with murders in WA near Lake Sammamish (himself) and the murder of a young girl. The conversation was about Ann Marie Burr, so Bundy implicated himself in her murder. He intentionally linked himself to her murder. When I interviewed Holmes in January of 2007, he was very emphatic about Bundy's role in her disappearance, per Bundy's conversation with him. Why Bundy decided to do this I can't say. But it made absolutely no sense to do so unless it were true, and the article contains several statements from Bundy that are quite believable, and sound like legitimate confessions; albeit in the third person. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 12:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
So true, Bundy was as much a liar as he was a killer. I'll be very surprised if they're able to DNA match anything connected to the Burr case, but we will soon have an answer. There may always be a sense of mystery attached to this particular crime, but I do not believe Bundy will ever be taken out of the equation unless substantial evidence emerges pointing in another direction. Then again, a sense of mystery will continue to pervade the case as a whole, as there are still many things we don't know about the murders. Even the number of women he killed is in question. Cheers to you, also Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 13:56, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Blood from the Burr residence? That would be interesting, and new information for me. A miniscule trace from the window, perhaps? Beside the footprint in the muddy grass below the window (and next to the overturned bench) in which the killer entered, and some grass clippings inside the home, I was not aware anything else existed. This is certainly getting interesting. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:29, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed the piece did not mention the Burr home and blood evidence. Indeed, I'm certain it doesn't exist, but we'll see. The strange thing about the Tacoma News Tribune article is how Bundy states that the "person" may have led the girl next door, killed her, and then had sex with her. Well, Bundy and necrophilia go hand-in-hand, and it does have the ring of truth. The Lake Sammamish statement is very damaging too. As I say in my book, if Bundy did kill Burr, then it must have been his first murder, and when he killed little Kim Leach, it was like he was coming full circle. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 23:41, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
So true! There had been a gap of a number of years between Bundy books, until my book in 2009. Of course, Tim Wilson's book was published the same year. But with Dekle's book, and the one about the Burr case, and one about possible Bundy cases, it looks like things are picking up steam. Of course, I've always said that Ted Bundy will no doubt be studied a hundred years from now, much like Jack the Ripper. The fascination with him appears to be unending. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 02:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I think the notion that Bundy "implicated himself" in the Burr murder is greatly overstated, since he specifically denied on numerous occasions having killed Burr. As far as the article goes, I would not mention the DNA profile in the article unless and until it actually makes a difference, that is, Ted is either implicated in a cold case or cleared of involvement in said cold case. Vidor ( talk) 15:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Many of the images here (probably everything of Bundy post-arrest) are now tagged for deletion at Commons. See Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Images from the Florida Photographic Collection Andy Dingley ( talk) 23:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Brilliant. Who was it above that said pushing this article for FA status might risk getting the images wiped out? Really wonderful. What a terrible idea it was to push this article for FA. Bye bye, images. Vidor ( talk) 05:08, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, as far as pictures of Ted are concerned, we are going to be left with nothing but the 1980 mug shot. I suppose we MIGHT be able to hold onto the 1978 press conference closeup under fair use. Vidor ( talk) 05:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
I must admit I didn't think this would end in a hatchet being taken to the entire Florida Photographic Collection. That actually was worse than I expected. As for Bundy and Casey Anthony, Bundy was already an inmate of the Florida State Prison system, so it's licensed as a work of a state employee. The Orange County Sheriff's Office is not employed by the State of Florida. Meh. This whole business dims my enthusiasm for Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons. Work this hard and someone comes in and screws it up. Vidor ( talk) 07:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
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This should not even be an issue: The Ted Bundy photographs on this page have been reproduced countless times in both the print and online media. As far as the Florida State Archives, all they require is "courtesy of Florida State Archives", as I used the Levy/Bowman photo in my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS. I find it absolutely amazing the issue of deletion is even being considered. We are not talking about obscure or rarely used photographs, but images widely distributed. Now, if deletion occurs, I would suggest we need to go through the King County Archives in Washington State. They have an immense number of photographs (many digitized)and are extremely inexpensive to obtain. Plus, gaining rights to reproduce is very simple. Stay away from photographs obtained through the Associated Press, however, as they wanted to charge me $225 for the use of one photo. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 16:24, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I have contacted the State of Florida archives questioning whether or not they have the ability to license these photos, and have received an answer. Here is the e-mail I sent:
There has been question as to your ability to license some of the images (with fair attribution to you) that the State is not the explicit copyright owner of. Others have expressed the belief that by attributing all these photos to you and providing you as the source, we would be in compliance with a Creative Commons (CC-by-SA) license that would allow these images on the educational site. Are there any copyright issues with these specific photos that the State is aware of that would prevent us from using these images on Wikipedia? Any insight on this matter would be greatly appreciated, and please contact me at your earliest convenience. Thank you!
This was the response:
We are not aware of any copyright issues with these photos. Our only requirement is that you credit the State Archives of Florida with any use or reproduction of the images. For additional information, please see our disclaimer at: http://www.floridamemory.com/photographiccollection/disclaimer.php
So again Florida seems to confirm that there is no issue with us using these images as long as we credit them. Doc talk 20:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
I asked the nominator several days ago if she would withdraw it and was informed that she would not unless certain conditions were met. I think any conditions for their use here have been more then met, personally. Doc talk 22:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay, here is the deal as I see it: The response you received from SAF is exactly the same one I received when adding a photo for my book. The ONLY request from the State Archives of Florida is that THEY be credited for the photo, which is STANDARD PROCEDURE. I believe (understanding human nature as I do)that the person responsible for suggesting deletion for these commonly used photos does not understand the process at all. Also (and I say this with the utmost respect) there seems to be an issue with control here. As I said in an earlier post, this is something we shouldn't even be dealing with. From the start, it was absurd to even suggest deletion of these rather generic photos. I could "see it" if we wanted to use a particular picture taken by, say, Liz Kendall (Bundy's girlfriend), but this is not the case. So good luck to all participants fighting to "save" these images, as it's a worthy effort. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:22, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
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Now that the key image questions have been addressed: what other serious obstacles are there to FA? I know the rewrites are worrisome, but that's part of the price of doing business around here, no? Would there still be a backlash if the goal was to push this article to FA? I'd love to hear from my fellow editors who have improved this article well beyond its humble beginnings, and wouldn't dream of nominating it again without better advice beforehand. Obviously ;> Doc talk 12:28, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
In trying to replace the unfortunately lost ref from the Vermont State Police concerning the Curran murder, I came across several news reports from the time. In one interesting report is the following quote: "Detective Lt. Richard Beaulieu said his men were checking for a connection between the girl's slaying and several assaults on UVM coeds and other women in the Burlington area last winter." [5] Now, of course, this would mean the winter of 1970 and not 1969. Unfortunately, there's more evidence that Bundy could have made a trip out to Vermont in 1969 rather than 1970, and Rule states that Bundy saved the child from drowning in Washington in the Summer of 1970 (and he was enrolled at UW for this semester). So I don't know what to make of it, but I thought it was an interesting tidbit. Any opinions are always appreciated! Doc talk 20:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I have added the following quote, but it was reverted:
When caught, he defended his actions in terms of the fact-value distinction. He scoffed at those, like the professors from whom he learned the fact-value distinction, who still lived their lives as if there were truth-value to value claims. He thought they were fools and that he was one of the few who had the courage and integrity to live a consistent life in light of the truth that value judgments, including the command "Thou shall not kill," are merely subjective assertions.<ref> Zuckert, Catherine H.; Zuckert, Michael P. (2006). "Strauss—Modernity—America". The truth about Leo Strauss: political philosophy and American democracy. Chicago, London: The University of Chicago Press. p. 73. ISBN 978-0-226-99332-4.
{{ cite book}}
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suggested) ( help)</ref>— Zuckert and Zuckert, The truth about Leo Strauss: political philosophy and American democracy
I think it is relevant for the way Ted Bundy saw himself: a man acting with courage and integrity starting from the assumption that all moral claims are subjective, i.e. that "killing is wrong" is a mere preference, just as "I like chocolate ice-cream but not vanilla ice-cream" is. Contrary to what Doc said on my discussion page, the link works in my browser and it shows the page which was quoted. Perhaps Google Books selectively chooses the pages it won't display, depending on the IP/country of the user which accesses Google Books. Anyway, the book can be found at libraries if one wants to verify the quote.
I don't know exactly where it belongs into the article, but I think it is highly relevant to present a reference about how Ted Bundy saw himself and what it motivated him to do what he did. It is not to be misunderstood as an apology, Strauss and the Zuckerts were perfectly clear about condemning Ted Bundy's moral relativism. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
So, every college freshman in America knows how to appeal to the claim "That's only a value judgment" to cut off discussion about issues of the good and the just. Some of the more extreme consequences rise to the surface from time to time. In the 1980s, for example, there was a famous serial killer named Ted Bundy, who was young, good looking, and well educated. He searched out young women on college campuses, impressing them with his knowledge of philosophy, among other things. When caught, he defended his actions in terms of the fact-value distinction. He scoffed at those, like the professors from whom he learned the fact-value distinction, who still lived their lives as if there were truth-value to value claims. He thought they were fools and that he was one of the few who had the courage and integrity to live a consistent life in light of the truth that value judgments, including the command "Thou shall not kill," are merely subjective assertions.
I think the quote is far too opinionated in its amateurish conclusion, and really just the view of someone who wrote a book about Bundy. I don't see any value in keeping the quote in the article: there are many more quotes that are far more worthy of inclusion out there right now.
Doc
talk 07:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Take a look at the sentence "Bundy was handsome and charismatic, traits he exploited in winning the confidence of his young, attractive female victims." Bundy being handsome and charismatic is down to opinion, no? I think he looks rather average-looking (not "handsome") and probably others do as well. The same goes with his female victims being attractive. One person can be considered attractive by one dude and unattractive to another. I'm not sure why this elementary mistake is allowed to persist in a GA-rated article. -- 81.100.44.233 ( talk) 03:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
at one point in the pathology section it says something like "he was a psychopath meaning he knew what he was doing was wrong but still did it" and later it says that "he didnt take responsibility for any of his crimes". does that mean he just said that he wasnt responsible? was he just trying to get sympathy maybe? i feel that maybe there should be a small mention of that if that is what it probably means. how do we know that he knew the difference between right and wrong if he wouldnt admit that the murders were his fault? couldnt he have been deluding himself?
"A significant element of delusion permeated his thinking: "Bundy was always surprised when anyone noticed that one of his victims was missing, because he imagined America to be a place where everyone is invisible except to themselves. And he was always astounded when people testified that they had seen him in incriminating places, because Bundy did not believe people noticed each other."[303] But blame shifting and outright denial were his principal defense mechanisms: "I don't know why everyone is out to get me," he complained to Lewis. "He really and truly did not have any sense of the enormity of what he had done," she said.[297] "A long-term serial killer erects powerful barriers to his guilt," Keppel wrote, "walls of denial that can sometimes never be breached.""
isnt this section saying that he was delusional, and not a person who knew the difference between right and wrong? or can you be a psycopath and delusional at the same time (i assume you can)? if so why would he need "barriers to his guilt" if he is a psycopath? wouldnt the only barrier he would need in keeping himself from realizing that others noticed him etc? i guess there is variance in opinions as to whether he was a psychopath? i guess maybe this is part of the bigger argument of nature vs nurture and we're trying to incorporate both arguments? it seems pretty clear he was a psychopath based on the info on this page. maybe there should be some info on the varience of opinion between sources, one side vs the other type of thing. maybe i just dont know what im talking about at all? thats my suspicion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.15.165.150 ( talk) 05:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I know this has been brought up before, but I'm going to bring it up again. I've seen a different picture of Ted's corpse recently, here. Now, I know part of the reason images like this were deemed unacceptable earlier was because of basic "squeamishness" - but since WP is not censored, and this is a somewhat historical image, I'm wondering if we shouldn't have it here. Since it can only be assumed that the image was taken by an employee of the Florida Medical Examiner's office, the image would have to be considered PD on the Commons per {{ PD-FLGov}}. Is it too graphic for the article? Doc talk 05:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
DoctorJoeE, could you please tell me the source for your statements mentioning the conversation between Polly Nelson and Diana Weiner regarding the undertaker? I knew that Bundy authorized Diana Weiner to handle all his postmortem issues (this information has been abundantly published online, and I also read about Bundy's wishes in his Testament, also available online), but I didn't know Nelson advised Weiner to use a discrete undertaker from Tallahassee whom she trusted, yet Weiner used a Gainesville undertaker who turned out to be an outspoken death penalty proponent... Where did you read / hear this? Best regards, Maria Serban
I can't see any use in putting such an image in the article. I don't see what purpose it serves. Load the image to Wikimedia Commons, maybe, if it's possible, but how is the article improved by a picture of his corpse? Vidor ( talk) 12:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
An editor has been reverted many times now for putting reduntant information in about Bundy about his attacking of women. We all worked hard to get this article to good status and the information being forced in it totally unnecessary. Please explain why you feel it is necessary to quote again from Michaud book about Bundy. Thanks. -- CrohnieGal Talk 18:56, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Regarding this reference from a reliable source, as well as something I'd read in Rule (I'll look for it, as it was years ago) about a Temple University student being fatally stabbed in the library, I think that there should be something on this in the possible additional victims section. "In rambling confessions and confusing statements made in the third person, Bundy never directly said he had killed the two women, who were roommates at an Illinois junior college, but he implied that his first murders were at the Shore, and he described picking up two women in Ocean City that spring. His psychologist-interviewer notified Atlantic County authorities immediately after Bundy’s execution in Florida in 1989." Bundy spent the first half of 1969 in this area, and it is certainly worth including, in my opinion. Thoughts? Doc talk 04:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
The girl in the stacks was named Betsy Aardsma. There is actually more connecting Bundy to the Atlantic City murders, those of Susan Davis and Elizabeth Perry. But I think we need to name them beyond what is in the section. What I was suggesting is a short, referenced blurb between the Safeway murders and the Curran murder, mentioning all three victims and that he was a suspect. Aside from these three, I don't know if there are any truly credible claims out there that could be added to the possible section: I think these would probably be the last. I'll draft something at some point for consideration. Cheers :> Doc talk 21:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Good point, hadn't looked too carefully at it yet - it was the first article I found on it, and I'll have to look at Rule's mention again. I'm still reeling from Levon Helm's death today (I saw him just last year at one of his "Midnight Rambles", and he was amazing), so Bundy will be taking a backseat for a bit. Never a rush anyway. Cheers... Doc talk 23:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Just a note to those interested: Dr. Al Carlisle, who picked the brain of Ted Bundy after his incarceration in Utah, has written a book about his experiences with the killer. Although it is deemed a novel (perhaps for reasons of the medical Hippa laws here in the United States), it is nevertheless a look into the mind of Bundy and it should be most interesting. Al is sending me a copy, and once I've devoured it, I'll post my observations. I do not know how widely it is or will be available, but I gave Al information pertaining to a marketing strategy, and that I'll be posting info at Executed Today where I've been answering questions about Theodore Bundy for the past several years. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 15:11, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
My pleasure, Doc! BTW: I received the book yesterday, and so far, I really like what I see. But I'm holding my judgement until the completion of the book. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 20:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
@DoctorJoeE: Yes, I couldn't agree with you more as to the "novel" aspect of this book. My main reason for mentioning it here is to let everyone know of its existence so that all can judge its veracity. The book is based on a fictional question and answer session between Bundy and Carlisle just prior to Bundy's execution. And it's in this Q & A that the personality of Bundy comes to the surface. These are, of course, observations Carlisle has attained through much contact with Ted, and so far I have found the book to be very interesting. That said, it may never be considered "Canon" within the Bundy library, as it were, yet it seems to be an important work anyway, as it's coming from a person who had a great deal of contact with the killer; and in fact, the two liked each other, and Bundy trusted Carlisle.
As to the publisher: I'm not sure if it's published by a small press, or if he self-published. Personally, either way is fine with me, as I'm interested in the information presented, and because he has an editor, everything looks good thus far. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 16:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Google "Al Carlisle", and you will find his website. I believe you can order books directly from his site. I told Al he needs a marketing plan and he needs to have it available on Amazon, etc to really get his book out there, so we'll see. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 20:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Okay. Al Carlisle emailed me and informed me that the current work is "the World Horror edition" (he is a part of the convention) and it is a self-published work. No matter. However, he has obtained a publisher, and I have asked him to send me that info so I can pass along this information to others who are interested in his book. Also (and as I intimated in the above posts), the book itself is an interesting look into the killer's personality. That said, I found two errors pertaining to factors not related to Bundy's personality and Carlisle's dealings with him. First, there is a mistake as to how Bundy was put to death, and the second has to do with a particular author and the type of books she writes. I informed him of these errors and he will correct them. Even so, the real "meat" of the book is found in his astute evaluation of Theodore Bundy, and it is this in-depth look into his psychological make-up that makes the book worthwhile. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 16:52, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Recently, an anonymous editor added a reference to the November 1973 murder of Pamela Darlington in Canada. The cited reference was a 25-year-old newspaper article stating that a Canadian investigator suspected that Bundy was involved. However, this far more recent article says that "Bundy ... was once thought to be a suspect in Darlington's death, but that theory was later disproved." I have therefore reverted the content. DoctorJoeE talk to me! 00:29, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
I have uploaded two of my own photos to the Commons. They are a picture of the rooming house Ted Bundy lived at in Salt Lake City, and a picture of the utility room where he is known to have kept Polaroid snapshots of his victims. I took photos of the fire escapes on the left and right sides of the house--Bundy is known to have snuck in via fire escape--but I do not know which side room #2 was on so I did not upload those. I guess the article probably would not be materially improved by posting either of these photos, but anyone who feels differently can of course add them to the article. Vidor ( talk) 00:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Vidor: Facing the house from the sidewalk, I believe it is the fire escape on the left. When I was doing my research in 2006, I not only photographed the house, but I went inside as well. No. 2 apartment is no longer upstairs, but this side would have certainly afforded him more privacy. I tried to ascertain from Jerry Thompson and Ira Beal which one led to his apartment, but they couldn't remember. BTW: as of 2006 the place was still housing college kids. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 03:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
It seems to be still hosting college kids now. There was mail in the mailboxes and a couple of cars in the back. Kind of looked like it hadn't been painted since Ted got arrested. In other news, I downloaded the new book co-written by Bob Keppel and Stephen Michaud. Am kind of surprised that Michaud has written a new Bundy book after having written the definitive Bundy book, The Only Living Witness, but a guy's got to make a living. Vidor ( talk) 15:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
The house does look much the same as when Bundy was there. Can't swear about the paint job, however. Per the new Michaud/Keppel collaboration,I've been aware of it for sometime. Indeed, a fellow who contacted me over a year ago (Mike McCann) was doing a documentary about other possible victims of Bundy, and wanted to interview me. He had already purchased a copy of my book (then purchased the e-book as well), told me how much he liked it, appreciated all the new information I'd uncovered, and liked the way I approached the story in general. Now, when I learned he was in Seattle, I asked him if he'd talked with Bob Keppel. He said no, so I advised him to make contact, explaining how gracious Bob had been with me. This he did, and as things got moving, he arranged an interview with Michaud. I also advised him to get with the King County Archives for additional case file information. Well, Mike has become very close with both Keppel and Michaud, and from this came the new book. The documentary, Chasing the Darkness, is apparently still under construction, although they did my filmed interview in July of last year. I don't expect any real "bombshells" from the new book, but I'm certain it's very interesting. So let us know, will you? Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 21:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not finished, but the book, which is pretty short, has almost no new info. What it DOES have is an amazing set of illustrations--crime scene photos (nothing gory), MISSING posters, photos of victims I'd never seen, etc. Worth it for the photos. And it answers my question--Bundy's fire escape was on the right side from the perspective of someone facing the house. I will upload that photo, of the fire escape, and I think I might add it to the article. Vidor ( talk) 03:42, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad we have a definitive answer as to which fire escape Bundy used. When I photographed the shot I have in my book, I remember thinking the fire escape he used had to be on the other side, as this one above the driveway would expose him to a greater risk of being seen. BTW: A friend of Kathy Parks,who'd purchased a copy of my book, sent me one of the missing persons posters of Kathy that she and Loraine Fargo were putting up all over the area. I have additional info concerning Loraine Fargo and I'll post that tomorrow. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 05:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
As a biographer of Theodore Bundy, I would like to make the following observations: There is no one definitive book about Theodore Bundy. Every biography has its own flavor, insights, and the author has weaved the story in their own particular way. To say one stands above another, like it is an American Idol for books, does a disservice to the subject matter itself. For example, two books rarely talked about these days, are both excellent works which need to be read by every person desiring "the whole truth", as it were, about Ted Bundy. They are: Bundy: The Deliberate Stranger, by Richard Larsen; and, Ted Bundy: The Killer Next Door by Steve Winn and David Merrill. These books are rich treatments of the case and every bit as good as any other book on the subject. Sadly, they are rarely in the forefront of discussion these days, and to not read them is to lessen ones knowledge about the case. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 15:33, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Good for you, DoctorJoeE. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 19:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Several months after my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS, was published, Lorraine Fargo made contact with me through Amazon reviews of my book. I was certainly happy to hear from her as I wrote about her in the book. Lorraine was a good friend of Kathy Parks, and was in fact, the last person to speak with her before she ran into Ted Bundy. From this initial meeting we started to exchange emails on a regular basis. We discussed Bundy, Kathy, and the case in general. In the course of our conversations, I wanted to ask her about a couple of theories I had about the night Kathy disappeared. The first theory was that a letter Kathy mailed which has a May 7th postmark (she disappeared on May 6, 1974), may have been made around the same time she was out for her nocturnal stroll (see page 28 in my book). The second theory I had was that Bundy may have been following Lorraine, and perhaps, switched his attention towards Kathy after the two women stopped to talk. What follows are Lorraine's answers to both questions. I am including them here as they are not contained in my book (my theories could not be presented as facts, although I considered them to be accurate assumptions), and it's important to the overall case that this information be remembered:
"I also didn’t realize, until reading Kevin’s book, that the letter Christy received from Kathy, dated May 7th, 1974, was ever questioned. Kathy, in fact, had that letter in her hand as we spoke, and I watched her mail it in the small mailbox in front of the Commons just after we parted. The place we met and talked was just across the street from The Commons…. her destination after we spoke was no more than 50 feet away." Lorraine posted this particular piece at Executed Today where I chair the discussion on Bundy.
And concerning the possibility that Bundy was following Lorraine (this too was posted at Executed Today):
"Anyway, it was not until I read the excerpt from Kevin’s book that I made the “library” connection. I couldn’t help but notice, in his writing, that in many of Bundy’s 1st abductions and attempted abductions, he and his victims were in or near a university library. Well…… I had been studying at the library the night that Kathy was abducted, and I did have a slightly strange experience while I was there. There was this guy who seemed to be EVERYWHERE I was. I had a lot to do to complete my report, due the following day, and I was in “serious study mode.” When I went to the card catalog, there was a guy standing next to me looking through a different drawer. When I went to find the books on the shelves, he was again, right next to me, searching the shelves. He said something to the effect of “I can never find what I’m looking for here…” I pretty much ignored him, having found what I needed, and went to a table to begin working. A few minutes later he came and sat down at the same table, opposite side, a few chairs over. He asked if I had an extra pen, which I gave him. I proceeded to work, and he started to speak again. I said “Excuse me, but I have a ton of work to do”, and I gathered up my stuff and went to another table. I was annoyed because I had a lot to do, but didn’t think much more than that. It was getting late and they had announced that the library was closing soon. As I prepared to leave, I noticed the same guy, a short distance away. I remember being creeped out enough to take the stairs (in a group of students)rather than the elevator, and making sure I exited the library’s front door with a number of other students. I stayed very close to a group headed in the same direction that was slightly ahead of me. They crossed the street right about the time I spotted Kathy. I was very close to the dorm at that point, and there were still several people walking in the vicinity, so I pretty much forgot about “the guy” and proceeded on to Sackett Hall after talking with Kathy."
It was good getting this information from one who was there. Sadly, Lorraine passed away in April of 2011. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 22:02, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
The new book by Bob Keppel and Stephen Michaud, while largely useless as a source of Bundy info (I read it, and while it was published as Terrible Secrets it is basically a condensed version of The Riverman) contains several photos including one of the fire escape Ted used to sneak into his boarding house. I have posted my own photo to the article, now that we have a source indicating which fire escape it was. I also deleted another photo. We had two Ted mugshots in the same section. I deleted the one that was of smaller size and lower quality, keeping the bigger, higher quality photo from the Florida Archives. Vidor ( talk) 07:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I think we want to delete free images if they're pointless, like that one is. Vidor ( talk) 07:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I see two black and white mug shots. One is of lower resolution and shows him looking to the camera with a fairly blank expression. Another is of better resolution and size, and shows him looking depressed. The poses in each are exactly the same. I don't care enough about it to start an edit war or anything, so fine. Vidor ( talk) 08:08, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Anyway, I also found, randomly, a 1979 newspaper article that says Bundy pulled Carol DaRonch over in front of McMillan Elementary School in Murray. Link here. That is only half a mile from the Fashion Place Mall. Is it worth putting in the article as evidence of how quickly Bundy turned on a victim that he lured into his car? Probably not. Vidor ( talk) 07:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Concerning the attack on Carol DaRonch in front of McMillan Elementary, I have a shot of that location in my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS. It is very close to the Fashion Place Mall, and it does give a good indication of how "worked up" Bundy was to attack her even before he'd cleared civilization, as it were. Once he did the U-turn on the side street which runs between the mall and the cleaners, it was only half a block until he turned left onto Fashion Blvd (this street may have had a different name at that time?), and then only several blocks until he reached the school which was on their right. Of course, being in such a predatory state of mind and failing to capture DaRonch, ensured the destruction of Kent later that evening. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:33, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I agree the attack was "born of necessity" too, as she was becoming very suspicious of him. However, Bundy's usual ploy of articulate lies flowing through the mask wasn't even attempted by him at this time. At the point Carol DaRonch became uncomfortable, I don't believe she was a hundred percent convinced he wasn't a policeman, but she was getting there quickly. As such, it is a bit surprising (at least to me) that he didn't try to calm her fears through the same tactics he'd used dozens of times before, so as to reach a better location for the attack. In my opinion, his departure from this has to do with his predatory state of mind (altered state), along with the alcohol, and as such, he lost control of the situation. I do not believe he was drunk, as she would have noticed intoxication prior to merely smelling alcohol on his breath. Perhaps I'm wrong, but personally, I believe that Bundy's state of mind worked against him at that moment, and perhaps the altered state he reveled in when he truly had his victims safely with him, got the best of him in the midst of the hunt. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 18:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
"but I can't help it" Yes, me too! Oh yes, they were flowing, but they flew out the window on the drive away from the mall (I'll stop now, LOL!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmsullivan12 ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
We've got an IP editor from Denmark who is editing the article in violation of WP:CONSISTENCY, switching listing kilometers before miles. [8] I have pointed out the error of their ways on their talk page, but they will not listen. Will someone kindly revert their third attempt to introduce this incorrect and useless change? I am well within avoiding 3RR, but I want others to show them that them reverting over and over is not the way to "win" around here. Thanks. Doc talk 23:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
The article states: "In mid-1988 the Eleventh Circuit ruled against Bundy, and in December the Supreme Court denied a motion to review the ruling. Within hours of that final denial a firm execution date—January 24, 1989—was announced."
In December 1988 Bundy's lawyers filed their petition to review the ruling. It was denied on January 17, 1989 at 10:00 AM. Within minutes the execution date was set [Mello 104]. Martinez had signed a one-week warrant rather than the usual one-month warrant. Raduffus ( talk) 02:49, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I know I've brought this up before, but I can't find it: at least I can't find a section for this issue. I'm aware that Michaud & Aynesworth claim that Joni Lenz was assaulted with a speculum, and go into detail about it; and I'm also aware that the majority of sources claim that it was a bed rod from her own bed, and make no mention of a speculum whatsoever. The sources claim that he beat her and sexually assaulted her with a rod from her own bed frame. Whether this is true or not: it is quite reliably sourced. My concern is that we are not representing the consensus of reliable sources by not even mentioning the bed rod scenario, and the speculum scenario is only (to my knowledge) found in one instance. I think this needs to be addressed, and I'd appreciate any input on how it should be best be done before I boldly attempt to do it. Doc talk 08:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
You have raised an interesting point. Now, I can't be completely certain, but there may be something in the official record about it being a speculum. I have thousands of pages of documents from the case (all now packed away), and during my research, I believe the speculum is mentioned. I do not believe a bed rod is mentioned, but this isn't conclusive proof it wasn't a bed rod. And, I assumed Bundy received the speculum from his time with Ped Line Medical Supplies where he began working in May of 1970. That said, since the issue of the bed rod has been raised, then perhaps it should be mentioned as possibly being the "weapon" Bundy used that night; if, in fact,there is something in the record pointing to it. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 17:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi Doc...Well, very often, documentaries are rife with mistakes about particulars of the case, so these mentions do not move me. However, the mention from Ann Rule I would consider, as the info may have come from someone close to the case. It doesn't "prove" anything, of course, but it may be something that can give validity to the bed rod thing. Not so much the docs, however.
As to my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS: Try to pick up a copy from a library or through some other source, as I think you'll be surprised at how much new information is there (and thankfully, the publisher finally reduced the price of both the trade paper and eBook editions!). When writing it, I was not just on the "hunt" for new info, but I triple checked (or more) all the facts, dates, etc. I was determined to leave nothing to speculation, and where something couldn't be positively presented as fact, it was never presented as such Kmsullivan12 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I do identify the instrument as a speculum. M&A stated it, and as I say, I seem to remember actually finding a reference to it in the record. There is nothing in the records I have stating anything like a bed rod. Because of this, I had no reason to believe otherwise; and in fact, it's just the type of medical device Bundy could have obtained at Ped Line. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 20:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, I can't speak for what Rule found in the official record, but whatever she was privy to at that time from any actual report, is housed today (and available to all) in the King County Archives. When I made mention above on what Rule may have obtained, I was thinking the info may have come from a source close to the case other than a written report (a conversation with a detective?), and as such, it could very well be valid. I say this as I just don't recall anything in the written record about a rod. And if it isn't in the massive records that I was privy to when doing my research, then perhaps it doesn't exist in any official record. In any event, you're correct that this info, valid or not, is "out there", so it's wise to include it here. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 03:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I would leave it speculum, as I feel this was most likely what Bundy used. That said, it would be permissible --perhaps even wise-- to say: (some sources have cited a bed rod as being the instrument Bundy used during the attack), or something of this nature. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
It's fine with me if the instrument is identified as a bed rod, with the addition of: "some sources have cited a speculum as being the instrument Bundy used during the attack". We cannot prove which is correct, of course, so mentioning both is a plus for the article. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 18:36, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I just checked The Only Living Witness at Google Books and searched "speculum". It's first listed on page 28: "He took a heavy metal rod to her head, thrashing at her repeatedly. A speculum, or vaginal probe...had been thrust..." Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 01:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
So apparently, according to M&A, both a rod and a speculum were used. In my book, I say she was beaten about the head (no mention of the rod), and that he vaginally assaulted her with the speculum Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 02:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, the issue of bed rod verses speculum may not be an issue at all. Perhaps they were both used. I wish I had the time to unpack my Bundy boxes and look for those references to the speculum, etc, but I'm just too busy. Maybe a small point, yes, but it's like we're a part of this Bundy case think-tank and we won't be satisfied until we find out the truth; that is, if the truth is still available. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 22:15, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
So I applied a few edits (
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ted_Bundy&diff=520379602&oldid=520379122) and explained why, but they were quickly reverted twice. I was invited to justify my edits (elaborating beyond the explanation in the Edit Summary, presumably), so I'll start. One of the most significant edits pertained to Bundy's diagnosis.
The statement that the 'majority of evidence' suggested Ted Bundy was probably not mentally disturbed but had ASPD appears to be based on this passage on p13 in The Only Living Witness: The True Story of Serial Sex Killer Ted Bundy: 'the only doctor who did not assume Ted Bundy was a killer was also the only doctor not to conclude he was mentally disturbed. Once the assumption of guilt was made, nearly all the classic criteria of Antisocial Personality Disorder were identified and duly noted in him; violence, disregard for truth and social norms, thieving, impulsivity, inability to feel guilt or remorse and all the rest.'
It looks as if one doctor's diagnosis has been treated in this article as the 'probable diagnosis', and alternative diagnoses, e.g. of possible bipolar, various psychoses, etc. have been treated as 'much less likely', although the passage suggests that the former view was in the overwhelming minority! It appears that one or two editors have favored the view of one diagnosis and downplayed the diagnoses of other experts in the field, resulting in a non-
neutral statement. That the 'the majority of evidence pointed away from bipolar disorder or other psychoses, and toward antisocial personality disorder (ASPD)' looks to be
synthesized at best as there doesn't appear to be any confirmation of this in the sources used.
For instance, there doesn't appear to be anything about Bundy on p136 if at all in A Layperson's Guide to Criminal Law, nor in the other sources merely describing attributes of ASPD or related personality disorders. The only source close to the statement that associates Bundy with a possible diagnosis of ASPD is the one mentioned above, which, as explained, doesn't appear to support the statement. --
Xagg (
talk) 22:48, 29 October 2012 (UTC); updated 14:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
I realize DSM IV does not have a diagnosis of "evil" but the two statements about the episodes of "dissociation" are not correlates of ASPD. The statement from his attorney Browne in an interview needs more attention too. "Bundy knew what he was doing. 'Most sociopaths never admit they’re evil at all,' said Mr Browne. 'Ted really knew he was evil. Evil, evil, evil. And, believe me, really evil.' Dale Matson ( talk) 23:03, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Another thing I'm confused about is that the paragraph on his ASPD diagnosis also seems to imply ASPD is synonymous with modern notions of sociopathy or psychopathy. The paragraph says ASPD used to be referred to as those (not sure if that's true as there's nothing about it in the citation), but regardless of that, supposedly - nowadays at least - they are not synonymous with ASPD (although occasionally they are used liberally as synonyms), yet a few of the sources in the paragraph are references to modern usage of sociopathy or psychopathy, with nothing about ASPD in them. One example is the sentence using this source:
And the next sentence then refers to sociopaths, in its modern meaning, as having a certain characteristic, when the source used for it is a diagnosis of ASPD, not sociopathy:
So it looks like over time a few statements got through that confused ASPD with the modern meanings of sociopathy or psychopathy, or vice versa. Bundy's diagnosis was ASPD, and even if it used to be referred to as sociopathy or psychopathy, they apparently have their own meanings now, which the above sources appear to be referring to, in which case they are probably misplaced in that paragraph.
I'm sure that Bundy would be considered a psychopath or sociopath by today's standards, but currently there isn't any connection established in the article between Bundy's ASPD diagnosis and modern notions of sociopathy or psychopathy, so if the stuff about the modern notions of sociopathy or psychopathy aren't removed from the paragraph then maybe a connection should be established.--
Xagg (
talk) 14:49, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Confusion about ASPD, sociopathy and psychopathy seems to be rampant on Wikipedia lately. The short story is that they all mean the exact same thing. ASPD is a term that was created by the APA to be the new name for sociopath, which earlier was created to be the new name for psychopath. The APA is an American organization, so right away there are lots of people around the world using the original terms. Popular sources also use the terms that are not as long and awkward. The terms are interchangeable because when professional groups refer to old studies talking about psychopathy or sociopathy before ASPD was even created as a term they refer to the old study as a study on ASPD.
It is trivial to find reliable sources calling Ted Bundy a psychopath or a sociopath, whether in their popular or professional contexts.
Part of the problem might be that somebody introduced the incorrect idea into the ASPD WIkipedia article that it was completely different from psychopathy. Maybe people read that and took it at its word despite the poor sourcing and ignoring the previous versions of the article and the article talk page that already discussed the situation in more detail. DreamGuy ( talk) 03:29, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree that a some of this is more properly discussed on these terms' talk pages -- but since the original assertion, above, was that the terms were all synonymous, it's important to demonstrate -- here -- that that statement is incorrect. Here is a historical perspective from a Professor of Psychiatry acquaintance -- and before anyone says anything, I get that the following does not constitute RS; and I have already asked him to point me toward some published sources that I can use as citations -- but clearly, the distinction is not as simple as DreamGuy and others would like to believe:
Well, I guess that's clear as mud. The fact, though, is that the 3 terms are not interchangeable -- and the present wording in the article, which implies that they are, is not correct, despite all of the misinformed stuff, written by people who are not mental health professionals, asserting the opposite. I'm now working on assembling some real RS (as opposed to the lay literature cited above) so we can put this to bed, at least for a while. DoctorJoeE talk to me! 15:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Of the sources I provided, two of them (Robert Hare and Martin Kantor) are *undeniably* amongst the foremost experts on this area of psychology. To claim that they are "misinformed" or "lay literature" is just absurd. The other sources are equally valid per WP:RS rules as secondary sources demonstrating wide agreement in the field. I am not seeing any policy-based reason to ignore these sources. Arguments that are variations of "well, what *I* think is..." or "I'm not seeing..." or "my anonymous friend says..." certainly do not cut it. DreamGuy ( talk) 03:36, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I should also point out that it's bizarre that people were disputing a diagnosis that is widely supported and reported on pretty much in any source ever written about the case as supposedly having insufficient sources while at the same time a section totally pulling a claim of evidence of dissociative identity disorder out of thin air based upon some editor's personal interpretation of some things a couple people said remained in the article untouched the whole time. I removed it as an obvious violation of policy. DreamGuy ( talk) 04:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, Doc, your instinct was right on; so much for assuming good faith. Might even have been the same troll. I'll be a little less naive next time. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/ talk to me! 15:19, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Trolls on parade, LOL! Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 02:59, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Uhh. So... is he a psychopath? I've read the articles on Psychopathy, Antisocial Personality Disorder, Hare Psychopathy Checklist, etc. And even though colloquially, his name is a synonym for "psychopath", I'm not entirely sure, at least from reading this article, that he meets the criteria. Obviously he was a sociopath, for he was a violent serial killer. And he was manipulative and superficially charming, which is characteristic of psychopathy.
But sections of this article seem to suggest that he because a serial killer because of his break up. Like, he loved someone so much that losing her made him evil. I would object to such a stance, of course, but is there any evidence to support that hypothesis? It would rely on the assumption that he could love, or at least be affected by the loss or departure of a "loved" one. And if he were a psychopath, wouldn't he simply calculate whether he needed Stephanie Brooks, and if he concluded that he did, manipulate her to stay? The "Pathology" section cites one source who says Bundy was a manic depressive whose crimes usually occurred during his depressive episodes. How much merit is there to this assessment? And would that diagnosis rule out psychopathy or is there co-morbidity? Additionally, nowhere in the article is there a claim of sadism, does that mean that he was sanguinary not because he derived pleasure from women's pain but for a different reason?
I know Wikipedia is about quotation, not original research, so I'm not asking for breaking news or new info; I'm simply curious as to whether more information can be found regarding the subject: Is there a consensus on his motivations and psychopathology?
Also, how has public perception of his life and his crimes changed over time? This article would benefit from answering those questions, I think. In the "Conviction and Execution" section, it's stated that "writing in 1992, Ressler said of Bundy that 'This guy was an animal, and it amazed me that the media seemed unable to understand that'" Does this mean that at the time there was sympathy for Bundy in the media? Is there sympathy today?
Well, I hope someone reads my rant. I guess in a nutshell I'm just saying, "WTF, I'm even more confused now." -- Plavalagunanbanshee ( talk) 03:29, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
According to Criminal Justice Today; an Introductory Text for the 21st Century, by Frank Schmallger, published by Pearson, a sociopath is simply a different name for a psychopath. They are defined as a person whose defining characteristic is the inability to accurately imagine how others think and feel. So, sure he may have gotten hurt from the break up or damaged from his addiction to porn. However, the fact that he didn't care nor feel for his victims proves him to be a psychopath/sociopath. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.71.16.41 ( talk) 01:06, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Hi all, just a quick question. In the lead in the third paragraph is this sentence; The victim, once near or inside his rusty, light-bronze Volkswagen Beetle, would be overpowered, bludgeoned, sexually assaulted, and strangled, then transported to a secondary site (often a significant distance away) and dumped. I have a problem with this sentence because it sounds as if he did these things to all of his victims which he didn't. My problem is I can think of anything to correct it the way I want it to be. ;) The only thing I can think of is an and/or at the last and which of course won't do. It could be that I'm just not awake enough yet so I'll try to come back here and see if I can look at this again. But I'd be open to ideas too. Be well all, -- CrohnieGal Talk 10:25, 13 April 2011 (UTC) just want to say the work done of late has been great though less reliance on Rule for sources should be attempted though I too love her work, I have to get her rewrite.
Hi there. It's been a while since I've been to this article and I saw that it's gotten a bit messy, so I cleaned it up. I removed a fair amount of pointless natter, including various opinions by Ann Rule, irrelevant details of the relationship between Bundy and Kloepfer, and nattering about the psychology of serial killers in general. I also took out at least three factual errors: the assertion that the plea bargain in Florida came during the trial (it was before), the assertion that Levy and Bowman were roommates (they weren't), and the assertion that Boone only left Florida and Bundy when he started confessing at the end (she left in 1986). Vidor ( talk) 02:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, just because something is strongly referenced doesn't mean it is useful for the article. Ann Rule's comment about how her dog didn't like Bundy is solidly referenced to The Stranger Beside Me, but it doesn't seem particularly relevant to the article, so I deleted it. Ditto the bit from Rule's book about the psychic, which really isn't useful at all. And not all of it was reliably sourced--namely, the bit about the daughter and the link to the Serial Killers gallery and the Polaroid of Ted, Carole, and the little girl. I've seen that picture and it certainly LOOKS like Ted and Carole, and I for one believe that it's genuine, but AFAIK it's never been reliably sourced. I have never seen that picture in any of the Bundy biographies or any website that one might regard as a reliable source (like the Crime Library). And in any case, even if the picture was reliably sourced, the degree to which a toddler resembled Ted Bundy isn't of relevance to the article. Carole said the girl was Ted's baby, Ted believed it was his baby, and that's all we need to know. (It does make one wonder where that little girl is now, almost 29 years old, and whether or not she even knows who her father was.) I'd support adding the picture itself to the article if we could reliably source it and figure out some kind of appropriate license (fair use?). And speaking of pictures, I'm not sure how useful the sentencing document is. It's interesting, but does it clutter up the article? Ditto the picture of the Pitkin County Courthouse--I took that picture myself and added it to the article but now that I look at it I wonder if it should go. Vidor ( talk) 04:32, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't see the need for "get consensus before removing sourced content", to be honest. If something is boring it is boring, and if something is pointless it is pointless, and that's true whether it's sourced or not. I can find a good source giving the names and the birthdates of all of Ted's siblings. That wouldn't make the article better. And if it's going to be FA status, it needs to focus on the relevant details of Ted Bundy's life and crimes. So Elizabeth Kloepfer visited him in the Utah jail. True. Verifiable. Sourced. Who cares? The article needs to focus on Bundy and his crimes. We don't need to say that Liz thought they were both alcoholics, general theorizing about the nature of sociopaths should be in the article on sociopaths rather than here, "enrolled" is a better word than "matriculated", etc.
Regarding Carole Ann Boone, the sources appear to disagree. My 2000 Signet paperback edition of "The Stranger Beside Me" specifically says that Boone "never came back" after leaving Florida in 1986. (page 494) On page 532, she further states that "Carole Ann Boone did not visit." Polly Nelson, in her book, says on page 114 that Boone's move back to Washington was "permanent" (page 114). On page 306 she recounts her last conversation with Ted, in which he says he doesn't even think Carole will call. On page 271 she notes that "Neither Carole nor Louise came to Florida for the execution." Nelson, of course, was actually there at the scene. For that matter, I have two editions of "The Only Living Witness", the 1999 version that I originally used when editing and a 1989 paperback that I obtained later. The 1989 paperback honestly is a much better book; it's longer and contains more material, has some pictures, and does not suffer from the printing errors of the ultra-cheapo 1999 edition. The 1989 paperback does not contain the bit about Boone leaving the prison in tears. I think the preponderance of the evidence is that Boone was not there. Can we find any contemporary evidence, like 1989 newspaper articles? Vidor ( talk) 18:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any rule that says I can't edit whatever I want. As for alcohol being an important factor, that was already in the article. It already included Ted saying that he drank alcohol to pump himself up, and Carol DaRonch's testimony that she smelled alcohol on Ted's breath. Ted being an alcoholic is of questionable relevance to the article, and Liz being an alcoholic is certainly of no relevance to the article. Not to mention that Liz Kloepfer was a secretary and not qualified to make a diagnosis of alcoholism.
I noted several places in the article where bits from Liz's book had been added in. I got ahold of a library copy of "The Phantom Prince" and read it, and my impression at the time was that there wasn't much in it of use. Most of the more interesting stories Liz tells--Ted throwing her off a dock, Ted threatening to break her neck, Ted having plaster of paris in his room--was covered in other books. The rest of it was tales of a dysfunctional relationship. Other than her account of the letter Ted sent her from jail in Colorado, the one where he talks about people who radiate vulnerability, there wasn't much in that book that was relevant to the article.
We should probably ask ourselves how long this article needs to be. It has grown by 30,000 bytes in 2011, nearly a 50% increase, and I'm not sure how much of that is useful. Vidor ( talk) 00:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Eventually he discovered the truth, but how and when is not clear: he told biographers Stephen Michaud and Hugh Aynesworth that one day a cousin called him a "bastard", and then to prove it, showed him a copy of his birth certificate that he had found; [1] but biographer and true crime writer Ann Rule, who knew Bundy personally, believes he did not find unequivocal proof until he tracked down his original birth record in Vermont in 1969, after a traumatic breakup with his college girlfriend.
guess you didn't read the book very carefully It wasn't a very good book. And like I said above, I wasn't reading for details of Ted and Liz's relationship that had no bearing on the crimes. As for Diannaa's quote above, I think it's typical of the wordiness and poor flow that have crept into the article. Vidor ( talk) 20:32, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and thanks to Diannaa for seeing what I'm trying to do here--make the article shorter, more relevant, and more readable by excising extraneous material. I think we have everything we need well-sources in at least one of the books in the Bundy canon. Now all the article needs is editing. Vidor ( talk) 20:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Let me know if you disagree. I do. I don't think the article mentions more than what it had before, re: Liz, "Stephanie" (t/n Diane Edwards), and Carole--Liz called the cops on him, Edwards may have been a motivating factor in his murder spree, and Carole bore him a daughter. That's enough. As for a table--eh, whichever you think looks better. Vidor ( talk) 23:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes we can leave out the "Pathology" section entirely. And we probably should. I'd like to cut this article by at least 30%. I can't see how Bundy's manipulation of women is relevant to the article. Ted Bundy isn't notable because he manipulated women. He's notable because he killed thirty of them (at least).
You are quite correct about the irrationality of Bundy's escape attempts. In the Campbell murder, really all they had was a hair from the VW that matched Campbell (this b/f the DNA era; at the time hair analysis was not determinative in the way that fingerprint analysis was), gas receipts that placed him in the area, and Bundy's lie about never having been to Colorado to impeach him with. They had a witness who apparently saw Bundy at the Wildwood but she identified the wrong person in court. He stood a pretty good chance of beating the rap. Now this is a part of the article where material about sociopathy might actually be relevant. Among the signs of sociopathy are impulsivity and poor behavorial controls and an inability to understand the consequences of one's actions. That would seem to imply why Ted foolishly escaped twice from prison in Colorado. It also probably explains his suicidally reckless behavior in Florida when he probably could have stayed free indefinitely if he'd found some kind of job and laid low long enough to get a fake ID.
I can't agree that there were any grounds for indicting Boone as an accessory. They simply didn't have any proof that she knew of his escape. We still don't know how much of that $500 she actually gave him. Vidor ( talk) 07:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I base the 30% figure on the fact that in just one month, since late March of this year, this article has metastasized from 70,000 bytes to 100,000 bytes. I really don't see how much of this was useful. We don't need to write that Liz visited Ted in prison. Liz thinking Ted was an alcoholic is not relevant and does not make the article better. Information on the general nature of psychopathology belongs in the article on psychopathology, not the article on Ted Bundy. As for his manipulation of women, back before the article grew by 30,000 bytes for no particular reason, it already noted that he dated Liz throughtout his murder spree in Washington and that he got Carole to marry him and bear his child while he was on Death Row. How much more do we need? Vidor ( talk) 07:32, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, there's my latest edit. 3,000 bytes removed as opposed to 10,000 bytes removed when I visited the article a few days ago. I changed the detail about Carole Ann Boone's departure again. As noted above, while the sources do not agree, at least two out of the three state specifically that she never returned after leaving Florida. One of those two sources is Polly Nelson who was actually there in Bundy's last days. I removed the bit about the photo of Ted, Carole, and the little girl--again, that photo has never been definitively sourced, and even if it were, opinions on how much the little girl resembled Ted are pure speculation. We still don't need to know who was visiting Bundy in the Utah jail. The bit about Rodney Alcala has to go. And I think that both the Robertson and Cooley entries should go under "possible additional victims" because Ted did not confess by name to either of those crimes. Vidor ( talk) 08:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Another example: the killing began after Brooks's rejection, which everyone agrees devastated him. So why is the concept of rejection irrelevant to the article? Makes no sense. Well, I'd say the chronology is shaky there. "Brooks"/Edwards dumped him in--what, 1968? I forget. And he did not start killing in earnest until 1974. And for that matter I don't recall anywhere that Ted said Stephanie dumping him led him on a path to murder. I agree that we should have info about Stephanie dumping him. What else do we need? As for the article length, if we want to cut further and we are worried about IMDb as a source, we could simply delete the section about Ted Bundy movies. Vidor ( talk) 01:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
So I went ahead and deleted it. No "citation needed" and the article is 1400 bytes shorter. Personally I think IMDb should suffice simply to confirm that a movie exists, but I'd rather get rid of the section than have a bunch of "citation needed". Thoughts? Vidor ( talk) 02:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Recently the following claim was re-added: "Bundy was superficially handsome, charming, and charismatic, and used these qualities to full advantage." Can this claim be substantiated? Please provide sufficient evidence or an authoritative source that can confirm Bundy (i) possessed these qualities and (ii) used said qualities to full advantage. Otherwise, it just sounds like some random editor's unsubstantiated opinion, in which case it should be deleted from this article. -- 82.31.164.172 ( talk) 14:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
I have read through an exhaustive archive of this material. I've read every Ted Bundy book ever written. And they all agree on, and include testimony about, the fact that he was superficially handsome, charming, and charismatic. Ann Rule, who knew him personally before he was a murder suspect, described him as "courtly". And it does belong in the article, because it's highly relevant. Bundy's charm and sophistication was how he manipulated people, and specifically how he got intelligent young women to follow him to his car. Vidor ( talk) 20:35, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Do you know how encyclopedia articles work? I sure do! I also know that you don't appear to know very much about Ted Bundy. And you definitely don't know how to not be a jackass. Sure, there was no point in changing "colouration" to "coloration" or whatever Actually, this isn't true. Ted Bundy was an American and the article should be written in American English with appropriate American spellings. I'll have to go through and check that. Vidor ( talk) 23:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I have added a link to Multiple Personality Disorder but that directs the reader to our article on Dissociative identity disorder. Did Bundy have Dissociative identity disorder, or when you say he had multiple personality disorders are you saying he had more than one personality disorder (borderline, sociopathic, etc as quoted from Rule below)? This section may have to be re-worded as if you say he had Multiple Personality Disorder the reader will assume you meant Dissociative identity disorder. Thanks. -- Diannaa ( Talk) 04:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't think there's any convincing evidence that Bundy had multiple personality disorder. Not sure that such a disorder actually exists, frankly. Vidor ( talk) 07:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Regarding bulleted lists, I think it's essential to the article to include the list of known, identified victims. I'll defer to others on what form that should take. Vidor ( talk) 01:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
As for Multiple Personality Disorder, yes it's in the DSM-IV, but there is still debate as to whether it's real, as the Wikipedia article notes. For the purposes of this article, I'd say that we don't need to know that Ann Rule thought he was a split personality, b/c Ann Rule is no more qualified to make that diagnosis than I am, but it's valid to say in the article that Dr. Lewis made that diagnosis. Vidor ( talk) 01:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
She was his last victim, the youngest, and the one he was executed for. He deserved it ten times over. The article currently has one sentence about her murder, and it needs two more good ones that can encapsulate the event better. I'm not going to squibble about whether its a "hog" or a "pig farrowing" shed (three out of four sources I've seen call it a "hog shed" with only Rule describing it otherwise), but there are serious conflicting facts between reliable sources. Foreman and Michaud/Aynesworth say her body was found "under/beneath" a hog shed, while Rule and Sullivan state she was in the the shed; Foreman and Sullivan state that she was killed in the shed, but M/A and Rule state she was killed and then dumped there. Etc. There needs to be a brief sentence describing how she was abducted and the fact that he almost had a head-on collision after abducting her. Any input on this issue would be appreciated :> Doc talk 06:04, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I said it was better a month ago, and it was. We should have gone with the content at the end of March, fixed up and tweaked as necessary for a GA review. But that ship has sailed and I'm not going to whack 30,000 bytes from this article like I'd like to. Regarding the pig shed, there isn't much difference between "under" and "in". The hog shed wasn't actually resting on her body. What happened is that someone looked under the wall of the shed, where there was some kind of clearance between the bottom of the wall and the ground, and saw a sneaker with leg bones sticking out of it. Regarding the witness who saw Ted on the highway--pretty sure her testimony was ruled inadmissible. Regarding whether she was killed in the pigshed or just dumped there, I can't remember. It seems that I keep coming back to this article at work when I don't have my Bundy books at hand. As for the initial point, that not enough attention to the Leach murder is paid in the article, I can't agree. About as much attention is paid to the Leach murder as is to all other murders, namely, not a lot. Incidentally, George Dekle, the Leach prosecutor, has a book coming out this summer specifically dedicated to the Leach murder and investigation. We'll have to list it in the Bibliography section after it's published. Vidor ( talk) 22:37, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Vidor, Would be grateful if you could keep me informed of George Dekle's book, as we are unlikely to hear about publication in the UK. Best regards David J Johnson ( talk) 22:43, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't think Dekle feels any need for anything other than to make money. It's not like there is any doubt 31 years later that the correct verdict was reached in the Leach trial. As for what was "undermined" by defense counsel, that too is speculative. Here's what was presented as evidence in the Leach trial: 1) Bundy approaching another little girl of similar age, Leslie Parmenter, the day before 2) Leslie and her brother's testimony regarding the license plate # on the van 3) fibers found from a van with that license plate # being matched to Ted's clothing and Kimberly Leach's clothing 4) Andy Anderson's testimony regarding seeing Ted lead Kimberly Leach away from the school to the van. The article, as it stands, mentions the Parmenter incident, mentions the fiber analysis, and mentions the eyewitness (Anderson) who testified seeing Bundy with Leach. It seems like enough to me; I don't think we need to mention the eyewitness testimony twice like Doc9871 suggests above. Additionally I think that the Dekle book, when it comes out, should be the primary source we use for accounts of the Leach murder and should resolve any discrepancies between sources such as have been pointed out here. It is, after all, written by someone involved in events. (Similarly I think Polly Nelson's book and its unequivocal statement that Carole Boone did not return to Florida after 1986 should be used to resolve that dispute, since Nelson was at the scene in Bundy's final days.) Vidor ( talk) 13:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Without creating a separate section, there's another thing that needs to be addressed. The entire first paragraph under the "Modus operandi and victim profiles" section is completely unsourced, and you what we we're supposed to do in those cases. As it reads now, it could be inferred, e.g., that he always used a British accent, and the "All the victim's clothing was removed and later burned." sentence absolutely needs some kind of reference for that claim. As it is currently, it looks like a paragraph of original research. Cheers :> Doc talk 03:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi, since I've been inactive on this article since most of the new writings, I am now doing a reread of the article to see what has been done and if improvements could be needed. In the lead is this sentence "On a few occasions, largely at the beginning and end of his homicidal career, he abandoned all pretense of deception and simply broke into dwellings in the dead of night, assaulting his victims as they slept in their own beds." I think this needs sourcing but I'm not sure to be honest. My main issue is the largely at the beginning and end since I do not remember this except for the rampage he went on just prior to his arrest in FL but not the beginning of his killings. I couldn't find anything like this in the main part of the article so I am bringing it here for opinions and/or sourcing. I don't have any of the new books being used so I'm not sure where this was taken from. Thanks in advance, -- CrohnieGal Talk 13:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC) I hope my comment is clear to understand, can't seem to get my concerns properly with this writing.
My rule of thumb is to include every header in the lead in some way Yeah, that's a bad rule of thumb. Vidor ( talk) 22:09, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
More Referencing Needed: "Reports of the six missing women and Lenz's brutal beating appeared prominently in newspapers and on television throughout Washington and Oregon. Fear spread among the population; hitchhiking by young women dropped sharply. Pressure mounted on law enforcement agencies but the complete lack of physical evidence hampered them severely." These three unreferenced sentences are next to the picture of the VW Bug. Thoughts? Doc talk 05:29, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Note - While it's probably not worth mentioning in the article (and may be original research), it should interest those involved with/watching the article that many of Bundy's victims were women of short stature. While Healy, Parks and Aime were described as tall girls, Manson and Ott were a mere 5 feet tall, Rancourt and Hawkins were 5'2", Ball and Smith were 5'3", and Naslund and Campbell were 5'4". At 5'11", Bundy had a distinct advantage when selecting victims much shorter than himself. Doc talk 01:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
OK sure, lets try for some consensus: I propose to remove this sentence at the end of the lead:
My rationale is that:
eug ( talk) 14:13, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I strongly agree with the original suggestion. Remove it, and don't put it back anywhere else. And goodness, no "media reaction" section. Shorter, shorter, shorter. Vidor ( talk) 22:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Getting back to what I wrote above, here is what I'd cut.
Actually, now that I have made that list, it isn't as long as I thought it would be. I still wish the article weren't over 100K and that number could still be reduced by simple copyediting, like going through the article and seeing how much of it can be phrased in fewer words, but I'd definitely say there is quite a bit less extraneous material in here than there used to be. I'll check tomorrow to see if any of the sources indicate that Boone actually filed for divorce. I was under the impression that she simply cut ties and went back to Washington without taking any formal action to end the marriage. Vidor ( talk) 07:57, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello, my name is Kevin M. Sullivan, and I'm the author of The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History. I must say, the work that has been put into the Bundy article is very good indeed. I did want to point out that Lynette Culver was not raped prior to her death. Bundy made this clear to the Idaho investigator, and I received this information from him. As such, my book states the sexual assault occurred after she was killed. This isn't surprising, as Bundy was constantly involved with necrophilia. Now, I did not want to personally make the change to the page, as I felt that informing those who regularly edit this site should do so. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 23:15, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
After further thought, I decided to make the minor correction myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmsullivan12 ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Has anybody read a self-published book with the above title, by Wilson and Keiss? (Tracking Hound Press, 2009, ISBN-10: 0615291112) Purports to present evidence that Bundy killed some people in Columbus, Georgia en route to Tallahassee. Can't use it as a direct reference, of course, but I'm wondering if it's worth the trouble to track down a copy as deep background. Anybody had a look at it? DoctorJoeE ( talk) 23:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
"self-published"=stay away Vidor ( talk) 00:56, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
For anyone curious about this book:
official site:
http://www.bundybook.com/#/home/4533721550
author site:
http://www.timwilsonamerica.com/#/the-book/4533995820
amazon US:
http://www.amazon.com/Happy-New-Year-Revolutionary-Stranglings/dp/0615291112
VulpineLady ( talk) 03:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
I came across this article which came out last week and thought I would share it since I don't see it mentioned. Police say a backhoe operator found a body of a girl, Kerry May-Hardy, missing from Seattle since 1972. She had long dark hair parted in the middle, and apparently was naked since there is no mention of clothing, although a wedding band and "blue material" were found with her skeletal (bone) remains. The article makes mention of Bundy, but there is no proof yet that he killed her, so its only speculation at this point. Police are still looking into the events surrounding her disappearance. Here's the article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015224554_remains04m.html
Another article, with her photo and sketch as well:
http://www.co.kittitas.wa.us/press/default.asp?prID=47
Just an observation, but Kittitas County (where the bones were found) is the same county where Rancourt (in the city of Ellensburg) was abducted. May-hardy may have nothing to do with Bundy, but it was interesting at any rate. ( Anotherdaytripper ( talk) 22:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC))
The above book (about the Kim Leach trial, by the prosecutor) is finally out. I received my copy over the weekend and I'm a third of the way through it -- not a quick read, by any means -- it's written like a very long police report, and so far it repeats facts already well known, but in excruciating detail. (e.g. Bundy used Thomas Evans's credit card to pay for gas in Lake City; do we need to know that?) In the forward, Dekle states his goal as demonstrating that Bundy's confession re: how he killed Leach (suffocated her in mud as he sexually assaulted her) was a lie. If that's all the new information he's got -- and it's going to take 225 pages just to make that case -- I'm not optimistic. But I will soldier on. Cheers, DoctorJoeE ( talk) 14:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch has graciously peer-reviewed the article and his opinions can be seen here. I think it's a good review with plenty of tips on how to improve the article further, personally. I've made the changes #1, #2 & #11 that he suggested as I can't anticipate there being objections to them, and I'm hoping for input from others on the many changes he suggests. I'm working on the fourth suggested change: apparently Eleanor Louise Cowell began calling herself simply "Louise" when she had Ted's name legally changed to Theodore Robert Nelson in October of 1950 in Philadelphia (Rule 1989, p.8). Anyhoo, hopefully editors will read the peer review and put forth their opinions on it. Cheers :> Doc talk 20:04, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
In the lead, we link to the article Psychopathy via a piped link [[Psychopathy|sociopath]]. However, the terminology used today is Antisocial personality disorder. Do we want this link to direct the reader to the article Psychopathy, or the article Antisocial personality disorder? -- Diannaa ( talk) 21:18, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone believe the site would benefit from having the current picture (May 2005) of Bundy's murder kit? It is the same one taken in my home and appears in my book, is displayed at Executed Today, and I know it has been "pirated" by other sites as well. I don't care either way if it is used, but if it is of interest to those who do the bulk of the work here, then I would grant the use of it Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 23:55, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi Doc. Well, the current picture was supplied by me anyway. Not directly, of course, but I supplied it to the headsman at the website "Executed Today" for the January 24, 2009 article about Bundy. The 1975 photo that you have, at one time, displayed a hand written caption along the bottom of the photo, and that is my writing. I received this picture from Jim Massie, who received it from Jerry Thompson, the former Utah homicide detective. Anyway, if you go to the site Executed Today, you can see the picture of the items I took of Bundy's murder kit in May of 2005, and the comparison picture taken by the Utah police in 1975 (also, I have been answering questions about Bundy at ET since that time, and we just passed 3,700 Q&A's). If you have access to my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS, both pictures are contained therein. I believe my 2005 photo is the only one available of this kit besides the 1975 photo. Now, you folks are the editors here, and I certainly don't want to intrude into the fine work you all have done on this site. But thinking of other people, and their possible interest in seeing Bundy's murder kit, taken 30 years after the original (and in color) might be of some interest to them. If you all would like to have it, then I believe it should be here. If the answer is yes, then I will contact the headsman at ET and we will work out an electronic transfer, as the PC I used to write the book is long dead, and my files of the case (including photos) are now stored. In any event, it can be worked out. So just let me know. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:27, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Great. Now, should there be a consensus among editors? Also, someone (don't ask me, LOL!) will need to post it, arrange where it should be placed, etc. As I said earlier, I can have the headsman of Executed Today transfer it electronically (back to me, or to one of you), and the rest should be easy. Logistically, if you all can figure this out, I will be a happy camper. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 21:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
It's been a tad silent here, so I'm just checking in to see where we might go with the photo idea. DoctorJoeE seems to think it's a good idea, but does anyone have an opposing view? If there is a consensus that yes, the site would benefit from having it, then state so here, and I will contact ET and get this moving. Per my above comments, I will be looking to someone else to actually post it. Also,is there a way to leave a personal message for one of the editors willing to do this, as I will need to let them know (without telling the world) how to go about obtaining it? Any thoughts? Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 12:55, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
There is this: The photo in question was published by McFarland in THE BUNDY MURDERS. However, I do in fact own the photo, so does anyone see a problem with posting it here? DoctorJoeE: You said "assuming it is indeed cleared for free public use", so do you see a problem with using the photo? If you do, then I have others that I can send you that did not end up in the book. I will be contacting you, so let me know what you think. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 18:51, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
@Diannaa: There should not be a question of authenticity regarding this photo, as the source of the photo(s) (mine, taken in 2005, and the "official" one I received and is now displayed here) has been authenticated by the signatures of retired detective Jerry Thompson, and these documents are on file with the publisher. Every picture and every quote contained within the book comes with a signed release from those participating. Anyway, I just wanted to put you at ease concerning this. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 18:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, Diannaa, I wouldn't call it "lying in a heap", but rather a a collage of items displayed not as evidence (as the 1975 photo required, displaying each item in its entirety), but in a way that might be interesting to viewers. And you know, my goal was not to remove one photo to make room for another,this is why I provided ET with both pictures. The picture is in my book, it's at Executed Today, and as I said earlier, others have made use of it too. It was my intention to show viewers of the Ted Bundy site here at Wikipedia a newer, color version of the same kit. Color is a big deal to people, and it is the only other photo available of the kit; and certainly the most recent picture of Bundy's items. But as to removing one for the other, I would say the 1975 photo should be the official photo. It just makes sense. However, if anyone believes the newer photo should come on board, then just say so here, Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 21:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
The crowbar, handcuffs, and the pantyhose mask never made it to Louisville. Judge Hanson from Utah (now deceased) had the crowbar and I believe the handcuffs as well. Jerry Thompson transported the pantyhose mask personally to Florida to try to have it admitted as evidence (it was rejected)so I'm not sure where it is now. Within the bag when it came to Louisville, were five of six little tins containing pubic hair of some of the victims, and the head hair of Carol DaRonch. These were recovered from Bundy's car and all had been tested at the FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 04:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I have to vote for the black and white picture. It shows the individual items more clearly, and more importantly it shows the two most important items, the crowbar and the handcuffs, which the color photo lacks. Mr. Sullivan makes a generous offer but the B&W photo is better. Vidor ( talk) 02:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Once again, let me say that I believe that the official, 1975 photo is the most important picture between the two. The 1975 photo is actually a part of the case. The question, in my mind, has never been one of replacing the official picture with the one I took of Bundy's items in 2005. If anything, it was meant to complement the original, and provide folks with a modern, color shot of these very important artifacts. But if it's a question of either/or, then yes, the 1975 photo is the most appropriate. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:17, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:59, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
I peer reviewed this and feel it is close to FA standards and more than meets the GA criteria. For suggestions for improvement, please see Wikipedia:Peer review/Ted Bundy/archive2. I also note that the dab link finder finds one disambiguation link that needs to be fixed. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
I hope it's ok with the editors here that I added MiszaBot to archive this talk page and added a search feature to it. This talk page is huge and a lot of reader's and editor's cannot download pages if they become too big. If you see a need for adjustments or anything, please go ahead. I've not set one of these up in a long time so having what I done looked at and/or edited will never cause me hard feelings. Hope all is well, -- CrohnieGal Talk 13:51, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
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Clearly, this article is going to FA, and there's really no reason to wait in sending it to that set of judges. Ruhrfisch's excellent recommendations have all mostly been accomplished except for a scant few. I move that we address the remaining concerns in a timely manner and nominate the article at FAC. Here they are:
So, aside from those concerns being addressed I see no reason why not to push forward. This is an excellent article that has been the product of collaboration between multiple editors with diverse backgrounds. It's taken time to get it to where it is, and it's improved exponentially in recent months. I'm pushing it to FAC and hope you all are ready to go with me. Cheers :> Doc talk 04:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
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A newcomer has "spelled out" the implication that I think was perfectly obvious the way it was. Some of you will recall that I spelled it out way back when, and by consensus we removed all that, since there is no publicly-available proof that Boone's daughter was fathered by Bundy, other than that one photo I referenced, which we decided wasn't verifiable enough to be cited. Ann Rule does spell it out in the latest incarnation of her book -- that she believes Bundy fathered Boone's daughter -- but do we really need to explain that in the article? Isn't that kind of patronizing? Just asking -- I'm willing to abide by whatever the group (by whom I mean those of us who have been doing this rewrite forever) decides. Cheers, DoctorJoeE ( talk) 12:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree with you DoctorJoeE, I don't think we really need to mention the possible daughter in the article - it's not verifiable. Best regards - as always. David J Johnson ( talk) 17:00, 22 July 2011 (UTC) 22 July 2011
It isn't Wikipedia's job to make unfounded speculations. Everyone involved believed the little girl was Ted's daughter. If Boone knew differently she kept it a secret. I say we call the girl Ted's daughter, as we have no source to state otherwise, and different sources state that prisoners could arrange for sex with visitors. Vidor ( talk) 19:42, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
This article just came out today and I thought I would share it:
http://www.wftv.com/news/28727794/detail.html
a recently developed profile of Bundy's DNA is complete enough that it can (and will) be "uploaded" to the FBI national database. Investigators working on the Burr case are seeking a match. ThisLaughingGuyRightHere ( talk) 06:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Bundy did link himself to the Burr disappearance in 1987, during an interview with Ron Holmes. That information was published in the May 9, 1987 issue of the Tacoma News Tribune. In turn, I include this info in the preface of my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS. I think it's great the blood was discovered,but I doubt it will lead to any answers in the Burr case. There just wasn't any real evidence left at the crime scene. But I suppose we can hope. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 23:00, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
@DoctorJoeE" Bundy, speaking in the third person, made reference to a person involved with murders in WA near Lake Sammamish (himself) and the murder of a young girl. The conversation was about Ann Marie Burr, so Bundy implicated himself in her murder. He intentionally linked himself to her murder. When I interviewed Holmes in January of 2007, he was very emphatic about Bundy's role in her disappearance, per Bundy's conversation with him. Why Bundy decided to do this I can't say. But it made absolutely no sense to do so unless it were true, and the article contains several statements from Bundy that are quite believable, and sound like legitimate confessions; albeit in the third person. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 12:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
So true, Bundy was as much a liar as he was a killer. I'll be very surprised if they're able to DNA match anything connected to the Burr case, but we will soon have an answer. There may always be a sense of mystery attached to this particular crime, but I do not believe Bundy will ever be taken out of the equation unless substantial evidence emerges pointing in another direction. Then again, a sense of mystery will continue to pervade the case as a whole, as there are still many things we don't know about the murders. Even the number of women he killed is in question. Cheers to you, also Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 13:56, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Blood from the Burr residence? That would be interesting, and new information for me. A miniscule trace from the window, perhaps? Beside the footprint in the muddy grass below the window (and next to the overturned bench) in which the killer entered, and some grass clippings inside the home, I was not aware anything else existed. This is certainly getting interesting. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:29, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed the piece did not mention the Burr home and blood evidence. Indeed, I'm certain it doesn't exist, but we'll see. The strange thing about the Tacoma News Tribune article is how Bundy states that the "person" may have led the girl next door, killed her, and then had sex with her. Well, Bundy and necrophilia go hand-in-hand, and it does have the ring of truth. The Lake Sammamish statement is very damaging too. As I say in my book, if Bundy did kill Burr, then it must have been his first murder, and when he killed little Kim Leach, it was like he was coming full circle. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 23:41, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
So true! There had been a gap of a number of years between Bundy books, until my book in 2009. Of course, Tim Wilson's book was published the same year. But with Dekle's book, and the one about the Burr case, and one about possible Bundy cases, it looks like things are picking up steam. Of course, I've always said that Ted Bundy will no doubt be studied a hundred years from now, much like Jack the Ripper. The fascination with him appears to be unending. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 02:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I think the notion that Bundy "implicated himself" in the Burr murder is greatly overstated, since he specifically denied on numerous occasions having killed Burr. As far as the article goes, I would not mention the DNA profile in the article unless and until it actually makes a difference, that is, Ted is either implicated in a cold case or cleared of involvement in said cold case. Vidor ( talk) 15:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Many of the images here (probably everything of Bundy post-arrest) are now tagged for deletion at Commons. See Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Images from the Florida Photographic Collection Andy Dingley ( talk) 23:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Brilliant. Who was it above that said pushing this article for FA status might risk getting the images wiped out? Really wonderful. What a terrible idea it was to push this article for FA. Bye bye, images. Vidor ( talk) 05:08, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, as far as pictures of Ted are concerned, we are going to be left with nothing but the 1980 mug shot. I suppose we MIGHT be able to hold onto the 1978 press conference closeup under fair use. Vidor ( talk) 05:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
I must admit I didn't think this would end in a hatchet being taken to the entire Florida Photographic Collection. That actually was worse than I expected. As for Bundy and Casey Anthony, Bundy was already an inmate of the Florida State Prison system, so it's licensed as a work of a state employee. The Orange County Sheriff's Office is not employed by the State of Florida. Meh. This whole business dims my enthusiasm for Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons. Work this hard and someone comes in and screws it up. Vidor ( talk) 07:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
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This should not even be an issue: The Ted Bundy photographs on this page have been reproduced countless times in both the print and online media. As far as the Florida State Archives, all they require is "courtesy of Florida State Archives", as I used the Levy/Bowman photo in my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS. I find it absolutely amazing the issue of deletion is even being considered. We are not talking about obscure or rarely used photographs, but images widely distributed. Now, if deletion occurs, I would suggest we need to go through the King County Archives in Washington State. They have an immense number of photographs (many digitized)and are extremely inexpensive to obtain. Plus, gaining rights to reproduce is very simple. Stay away from photographs obtained through the Associated Press, however, as they wanted to charge me $225 for the use of one photo. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 16:24, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I have contacted the State of Florida archives questioning whether or not they have the ability to license these photos, and have received an answer. Here is the e-mail I sent:
There has been question as to your ability to license some of the images (with fair attribution to you) that the State is not the explicit copyright owner of. Others have expressed the belief that by attributing all these photos to you and providing you as the source, we would be in compliance with a Creative Commons (CC-by-SA) license that would allow these images on the educational site. Are there any copyright issues with these specific photos that the State is aware of that would prevent us from using these images on Wikipedia? Any insight on this matter would be greatly appreciated, and please contact me at your earliest convenience. Thank you!
This was the response:
We are not aware of any copyright issues with these photos. Our only requirement is that you credit the State Archives of Florida with any use or reproduction of the images. For additional information, please see our disclaimer at: http://www.floridamemory.com/photographiccollection/disclaimer.php
So again Florida seems to confirm that there is no issue with us using these images as long as we credit them. Doc talk 20:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
I asked the nominator several days ago if she would withdraw it and was informed that she would not unless certain conditions were met. I think any conditions for their use here have been more then met, personally. Doc talk 22:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay, here is the deal as I see it: The response you received from SAF is exactly the same one I received when adding a photo for my book. The ONLY request from the State Archives of Florida is that THEY be credited for the photo, which is STANDARD PROCEDURE. I believe (understanding human nature as I do)that the person responsible for suggesting deletion for these commonly used photos does not understand the process at all. Also (and I say this with the utmost respect) there seems to be an issue with control here. As I said in an earlier post, this is something we shouldn't even be dealing with. From the start, it was absurd to even suggest deletion of these rather generic photos. I could "see it" if we wanted to use a particular picture taken by, say, Liz Kendall (Bundy's girlfriend), but this is not the case. So good luck to all participants fighting to "save" these images, as it's a worthy effort. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:22, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
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Now that the key image questions have been addressed: what other serious obstacles are there to FA? I know the rewrites are worrisome, but that's part of the price of doing business around here, no? Would there still be a backlash if the goal was to push this article to FA? I'd love to hear from my fellow editors who have improved this article well beyond its humble beginnings, and wouldn't dream of nominating it again without better advice beforehand. Obviously ;> Doc talk 12:28, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
In trying to replace the unfortunately lost ref from the Vermont State Police concerning the Curran murder, I came across several news reports from the time. In one interesting report is the following quote: "Detective Lt. Richard Beaulieu said his men were checking for a connection between the girl's slaying and several assaults on UVM coeds and other women in the Burlington area last winter." [5] Now, of course, this would mean the winter of 1970 and not 1969. Unfortunately, there's more evidence that Bundy could have made a trip out to Vermont in 1969 rather than 1970, and Rule states that Bundy saved the child from drowning in Washington in the Summer of 1970 (and he was enrolled at UW for this semester). So I don't know what to make of it, but I thought it was an interesting tidbit. Any opinions are always appreciated! Doc talk 20:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I have added the following quote, but it was reverted:
When caught, he defended his actions in terms of the fact-value distinction. He scoffed at those, like the professors from whom he learned the fact-value distinction, who still lived their lives as if there were truth-value to value claims. He thought they were fools and that he was one of the few who had the courage and integrity to live a consistent life in light of the truth that value judgments, including the command "Thou shall not kill," are merely subjective assertions.<ref> Zuckert, Catherine H.; Zuckert, Michael P. (2006). "Strauss—Modernity—America". The truth about Leo Strauss: political philosophy and American democracy. Chicago, London: The University of Chicago Press. p. 73. ISBN 978-0-226-99332-4.
{{ cite book}}
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suggested) ( help)</ref>— Zuckert and Zuckert, The truth about Leo Strauss: political philosophy and American democracy
I think it is relevant for the way Ted Bundy saw himself: a man acting with courage and integrity starting from the assumption that all moral claims are subjective, i.e. that "killing is wrong" is a mere preference, just as "I like chocolate ice-cream but not vanilla ice-cream" is. Contrary to what Doc said on my discussion page, the link works in my browser and it shows the page which was quoted. Perhaps Google Books selectively chooses the pages it won't display, depending on the IP/country of the user which accesses Google Books. Anyway, the book can be found at libraries if one wants to verify the quote.
I don't know exactly where it belongs into the article, but I think it is highly relevant to present a reference about how Ted Bundy saw himself and what it motivated him to do what he did. It is not to be misunderstood as an apology, Strauss and the Zuckerts were perfectly clear about condemning Ted Bundy's moral relativism. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
So, every college freshman in America knows how to appeal to the claim "That's only a value judgment" to cut off discussion about issues of the good and the just. Some of the more extreme consequences rise to the surface from time to time. In the 1980s, for example, there was a famous serial killer named Ted Bundy, who was young, good looking, and well educated. He searched out young women on college campuses, impressing them with his knowledge of philosophy, among other things. When caught, he defended his actions in terms of the fact-value distinction. He scoffed at those, like the professors from whom he learned the fact-value distinction, who still lived their lives as if there were truth-value to value claims. He thought they were fools and that he was one of the few who had the courage and integrity to live a consistent life in light of the truth that value judgments, including the command "Thou shall not kill," are merely subjective assertions.
I think the quote is far too opinionated in its amateurish conclusion, and really just the view of someone who wrote a book about Bundy. I don't see any value in keeping the quote in the article: there are many more quotes that are far more worthy of inclusion out there right now.
Doc
talk 07:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Take a look at the sentence "Bundy was handsome and charismatic, traits he exploited in winning the confidence of his young, attractive female victims." Bundy being handsome and charismatic is down to opinion, no? I think he looks rather average-looking (not "handsome") and probably others do as well. The same goes with his female victims being attractive. One person can be considered attractive by one dude and unattractive to another. I'm not sure why this elementary mistake is allowed to persist in a GA-rated article. -- 81.100.44.233 ( talk) 03:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
at one point in the pathology section it says something like "he was a psychopath meaning he knew what he was doing was wrong but still did it" and later it says that "he didnt take responsibility for any of his crimes". does that mean he just said that he wasnt responsible? was he just trying to get sympathy maybe? i feel that maybe there should be a small mention of that if that is what it probably means. how do we know that he knew the difference between right and wrong if he wouldnt admit that the murders were his fault? couldnt he have been deluding himself?
"A significant element of delusion permeated his thinking: "Bundy was always surprised when anyone noticed that one of his victims was missing, because he imagined America to be a place where everyone is invisible except to themselves. And he was always astounded when people testified that they had seen him in incriminating places, because Bundy did not believe people noticed each other."[303] But blame shifting and outright denial were his principal defense mechanisms: "I don't know why everyone is out to get me," he complained to Lewis. "He really and truly did not have any sense of the enormity of what he had done," she said.[297] "A long-term serial killer erects powerful barriers to his guilt," Keppel wrote, "walls of denial that can sometimes never be breached.""
isnt this section saying that he was delusional, and not a person who knew the difference between right and wrong? or can you be a psycopath and delusional at the same time (i assume you can)? if so why would he need "barriers to his guilt" if he is a psycopath? wouldnt the only barrier he would need in keeping himself from realizing that others noticed him etc? i guess there is variance in opinions as to whether he was a psychopath? i guess maybe this is part of the bigger argument of nature vs nurture and we're trying to incorporate both arguments? it seems pretty clear he was a psychopath based on the info on this page. maybe there should be some info on the varience of opinion between sources, one side vs the other type of thing. maybe i just dont know what im talking about at all? thats my suspicion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.15.165.150 ( talk) 05:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I know this has been brought up before, but I'm going to bring it up again. I've seen a different picture of Ted's corpse recently, here. Now, I know part of the reason images like this were deemed unacceptable earlier was because of basic "squeamishness" - but since WP is not censored, and this is a somewhat historical image, I'm wondering if we shouldn't have it here. Since it can only be assumed that the image was taken by an employee of the Florida Medical Examiner's office, the image would have to be considered PD on the Commons per {{ PD-FLGov}}. Is it too graphic for the article? Doc talk 05:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
DoctorJoeE, could you please tell me the source for your statements mentioning the conversation between Polly Nelson and Diana Weiner regarding the undertaker? I knew that Bundy authorized Diana Weiner to handle all his postmortem issues (this information has been abundantly published online, and I also read about Bundy's wishes in his Testament, also available online), but I didn't know Nelson advised Weiner to use a discrete undertaker from Tallahassee whom she trusted, yet Weiner used a Gainesville undertaker who turned out to be an outspoken death penalty proponent... Where did you read / hear this? Best regards, Maria Serban
I can't see any use in putting such an image in the article. I don't see what purpose it serves. Load the image to Wikimedia Commons, maybe, if it's possible, but how is the article improved by a picture of his corpse? Vidor ( talk) 12:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
An editor has been reverted many times now for putting reduntant information in about Bundy about his attacking of women. We all worked hard to get this article to good status and the information being forced in it totally unnecessary. Please explain why you feel it is necessary to quote again from Michaud book about Bundy. Thanks. -- CrohnieGal Talk 18:56, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Regarding this reference from a reliable source, as well as something I'd read in Rule (I'll look for it, as it was years ago) about a Temple University student being fatally stabbed in the library, I think that there should be something on this in the possible additional victims section. "In rambling confessions and confusing statements made in the third person, Bundy never directly said he had killed the two women, who were roommates at an Illinois junior college, but he implied that his first murders were at the Shore, and he described picking up two women in Ocean City that spring. His psychologist-interviewer notified Atlantic County authorities immediately after Bundy’s execution in Florida in 1989." Bundy spent the first half of 1969 in this area, and it is certainly worth including, in my opinion. Thoughts? Doc talk 04:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
The girl in the stacks was named Betsy Aardsma. There is actually more connecting Bundy to the Atlantic City murders, those of Susan Davis and Elizabeth Perry. But I think we need to name them beyond what is in the section. What I was suggesting is a short, referenced blurb between the Safeway murders and the Curran murder, mentioning all three victims and that he was a suspect. Aside from these three, I don't know if there are any truly credible claims out there that could be added to the possible section: I think these would probably be the last. I'll draft something at some point for consideration. Cheers :> Doc talk 21:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Good point, hadn't looked too carefully at it yet - it was the first article I found on it, and I'll have to look at Rule's mention again. I'm still reeling from Levon Helm's death today (I saw him just last year at one of his "Midnight Rambles", and he was amazing), so Bundy will be taking a backseat for a bit. Never a rush anyway. Cheers... Doc talk 23:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Just a note to those interested: Dr. Al Carlisle, who picked the brain of Ted Bundy after his incarceration in Utah, has written a book about his experiences with the killer. Although it is deemed a novel (perhaps for reasons of the medical Hippa laws here in the United States), it is nevertheless a look into the mind of Bundy and it should be most interesting. Al is sending me a copy, and once I've devoured it, I'll post my observations. I do not know how widely it is or will be available, but I gave Al information pertaining to a marketing strategy, and that I'll be posting info at Executed Today where I've been answering questions about Theodore Bundy for the past several years. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 15:11, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
My pleasure, Doc! BTW: I received the book yesterday, and so far, I really like what I see. But I'm holding my judgement until the completion of the book. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 20:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
@DoctorJoeE: Yes, I couldn't agree with you more as to the "novel" aspect of this book. My main reason for mentioning it here is to let everyone know of its existence so that all can judge its veracity. The book is based on a fictional question and answer session between Bundy and Carlisle just prior to Bundy's execution. And it's in this Q & A that the personality of Bundy comes to the surface. These are, of course, observations Carlisle has attained through much contact with Ted, and so far I have found the book to be very interesting. That said, it may never be considered "Canon" within the Bundy library, as it were, yet it seems to be an important work anyway, as it's coming from a person who had a great deal of contact with the killer; and in fact, the two liked each other, and Bundy trusted Carlisle.
As to the publisher: I'm not sure if it's published by a small press, or if he self-published. Personally, either way is fine with me, as I'm interested in the information presented, and because he has an editor, everything looks good thus far. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 16:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Google "Al Carlisle", and you will find his website. I believe you can order books directly from his site. I told Al he needs a marketing plan and he needs to have it available on Amazon, etc to really get his book out there, so we'll see. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 20:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Okay. Al Carlisle emailed me and informed me that the current work is "the World Horror edition" (he is a part of the convention) and it is a self-published work. No matter. However, he has obtained a publisher, and I have asked him to send me that info so I can pass along this information to others who are interested in his book. Also (and as I intimated in the above posts), the book itself is an interesting look into the killer's personality. That said, I found two errors pertaining to factors not related to Bundy's personality and Carlisle's dealings with him. First, there is a mistake as to how Bundy was put to death, and the second has to do with a particular author and the type of books she writes. I informed him of these errors and he will correct them. Even so, the real "meat" of the book is found in his astute evaluation of Theodore Bundy, and it is this in-depth look into his psychological make-up that makes the book worthwhile. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 16:52, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Recently, an anonymous editor added a reference to the November 1973 murder of Pamela Darlington in Canada. The cited reference was a 25-year-old newspaper article stating that a Canadian investigator suspected that Bundy was involved. However, this far more recent article says that "Bundy ... was once thought to be a suspect in Darlington's death, but that theory was later disproved." I have therefore reverted the content. DoctorJoeE talk to me! 00:29, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
I have uploaded two of my own photos to the Commons. They are a picture of the rooming house Ted Bundy lived at in Salt Lake City, and a picture of the utility room where he is known to have kept Polaroid snapshots of his victims. I took photos of the fire escapes on the left and right sides of the house--Bundy is known to have snuck in via fire escape--but I do not know which side room #2 was on so I did not upload those. I guess the article probably would not be materially improved by posting either of these photos, but anyone who feels differently can of course add them to the article. Vidor ( talk) 00:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Vidor: Facing the house from the sidewalk, I believe it is the fire escape on the left. When I was doing my research in 2006, I not only photographed the house, but I went inside as well. No. 2 apartment is no longer upstairs, but this side would have certainly afforded him more privacy. I tried to ascertain from Jerry Thompson and Ira Beal which one led to his apartment, but they couldn't remember. BTW: as of 2006 the place was still housing college kids. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 03:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
It seems to be still hosting college kids now. There was mail in the mailboxes and a couple of cars in the back. Kind of looked like it hadn't been painted since Ted got arrested. In other news, I downloaded the new book co-written by Bob Keppel and Stephen Michaud. Am kind of surprised that Michaud has written a new Bundy book after having written the definitive Bundy book, The Only Living Witness, but a guy's got to make a living. Vidor ( talk) 15:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
The house does look much the same as when Bundy was there. Can't swear about the paint job, however. Per the new Michaud/Keppel collaboration,I've been aware of it for sometime. Indeed, a fellow who contacted me over a year ago (Mike McCann) was doing a documentary about other possible victims of Bundy, and wanted to interview me. He had already purchased a copy of my book (then purchased the e-book as well), told me how much he liked it, appreciated all the new information I'd uncovered, and liked the way I approached the story in general. Now, when I learned he was in Seattle, I asked him if he'd talked with Bob Keppel. He said no, so I advised him to make contact, explaining how gracious Bob had been with me. This he did, and as things got moving, he arranged an interview with Michaud. I also advised him to get with the King County Archives for additional case file information. Well, Mike has become very close with both Keppel and Michaud, and from this came the new book. The documentary, Chasing the Darkness, is apparently still under construction, although they did my filmed interview in July of last year. I don't expect any real "bombshells" from the new book, but I'm certain it's very interesting. So let us know, will you? Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 21:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not finished, but the book, which is pretty short, has almost no new info. What it DOES have is an amazing set of illustrations--crime scene photos (nothing gory), MISSING posters, photos of victims I'd never seen, etc. Worth it for the photos. And it answers my question--Bundy's fire escape was on the right side from the perspective of someone facing the house. I will upload that photo, of the fire escape, and I think I might add it to the article. Vidor ( talk) 03:42, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad we have a definitive answer as to which fire escape Bundy used. When I photographed the shot I have in my book, I remember thinking the fire escape he used had to be on the other side, as this one above the driveway would expose him to a greater risk of being seen. BTW: A friend of Kathy Parks,who'd purchased a copy of my book, sent me one of the missing persons posters of Kathy that she and Loraine Fargo were putting up all over the area. I have additional info concerning Loraine Fargo and I'll post that tomorrow. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 05:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
As a biographer of Theodore Bundy, I would like to make the following observations: There is no one definitive book about Theodore Bundy. Every biography has its own flavor, insights, and the author has weaved the story in their own particular way. To say one stands above another, like it is an American Idol for books, does a disservice to the subject matter itself. For example, two books rarely talked about these days, are both excellent works which need to be read by every person desiring "the whole truth", as it were, about Ted Bundy. They are: Bundy: The Deliberate Stranger, by Richard Larsen; and, Ted Bundy: The Killer Next Door by Steve Winn and David Merrill. These books are rich treatments of the case and every bit as good as any other book on the subject. Sadly, they are rarely in the forefront of discussion these days, and to not read them is to lessen ones knowledge about the case. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 15:33, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Good for you, DoctorJoeE. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 19:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Several months after my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS, was published, Lorraine Fargo made contact with me through Amazon reviews of my book. I was certainly happy to hear from her as I wrote about her in the book. Lorraine was a good friend of Kathy Parks, and was in fact, the last person to speak with her before she ran into Ted Bundy. From this initial meeting we started to exchange emails on a regular basis. We discussed Bundy, Kathy, and the case in general. In the course of our conversations, I wanted to ask her about a couple of theories I had about the night Kathy disappeared. The first theory was that a letter Kathy mailed which has a May 7th postmark (she disappeared on May 6, 1974), may have been made around the same time she was out for her nocturnal stroll (see page 28 in my book). The second theory I had was that Bundy may have been following Lorraine, and perhaps, switched his attention towards Kathy after the two women stopped to talk. What follows are Lorraine's answers to both questions. I am including them here as they are not contained in my book (my theories could not be presented as facts, although I considered them to be accurate assumptions), and it's important to the overall case that this information be remembered:
"I also didn’t realize, until reading Kevin’s book, that the letter Christy received from Kathy, dated May 7th, 1974, was ever questioned. Kathy, in fact, had that letter in her hand as we spoke, and I watched her mail it in the small mailbox in front of the Commons just after we parted. The place we met and talked was just across the street from The Commons…. her destination after we spoke was no more than 50 feet away." Lorraine posted this particular piece at Executed Today where I chair the discussion on Bundy.
And concerning the possibility that Bundy was following Lorraine (this too was posted at Executed Today):
"Anyway, it was not until I read the excerpt from Kevin’s book that I made the “library” connection. I couldn’t help but notice, in his writing, that in many of Bundy’s 1st abductions and attempted abductions, he and his victims were in or near a university library. Well…… I had been studying at the library the night that Kathy was abducted, and I did have a slightly strange experience while I was there. There was this guy who seemed to be EVERYWHERE I was. I had a lot to do to complete my report, due the following day, and I was in “serious study mode.” When I went to the card catalog, there was a guy standing next to me looking through a different drawer. When I went to find the books on the shelves, he was again, right next to me, searching the shelves. He said something to the effect of “I can never find what I’m looking for here…” I pretty much ignored him, having found what I needed, and went to a table to begin working. A few minutes later he came and sat down at the same table, opposite side, a few chairs over. He asked if I had an extra pen, which I gave him. I proceeded to work, and he started to speak again. I said “Excuse me, but I have a ton of work to do”, and I gathered up my stuff and went to another table. I was annoyed because I had a lot to do, but didn’t think much more than that. It was getting late and they had announced that the library was closing soon. As I prepared to leave, I noticed the same guy, a short distance away. I remember being creeped out enough to take the stairs (in a group of students)rather than the elevator, and making sure I exited the library’s front door with a number of other students. I stayed very close to a group headed in the same direction that was slightly ahead of me. They crossed the street right about the time I spotted Kathy. I was very close to the dorm at that point, and there were still several people walking in the vicinity, so I pretty much forgot about “the guy” and proceeded on to Sackett Hall after talking with Kathy."
It was good getting this information from one who was there. Sadly, Lorraine passed away in April of 2011. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 22:02, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
The new book by Bob Keppel and Stephen Michaud, while largely useless as a source of Bundy info (I read it, and while it was published as Terrible Secrets it is basically a condensed version of The Riverman) contains several photos including one of the fire escape Ted used to sneak into his boarding house. I have posted my own photo to the article, now that we have a source indicating which fire escape it was. I also deleted another photo. We had two Ted mugshots in the same section. I deleted the one that was of smaller size and lower quality, keeping the bigger, higher quality photo from the Florida Archives. Vidor ( talk) 07:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I think we want to delete free images if they're pointless, like that one is. Vidor ( talk) 07:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I see two black and white mug shots. One is of lower resolution and shows him looking to the camera with a fairly blank expression. Another is of better resolution and size, and shows him looking depressed. The poses in each are exactly the same. I don't care enough about it to start an edit war or anything, so fine. Vidor ( talk) 08:08, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Anyway, I also found, randomly, a 1979 newspaper article that says Bundy pulled Carol DaRonch over in front of McMillan Elementary School in Murray. Link here. That is only half a mile from the Fashion Place Mall. Is it worth putting in the article as evidence of how quickly Bundy turned on a victim that he lured into his car? Probably not. Vidor ( talk) 07:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Concerning the attack on Carol DaRonch in front of McMillan Elementary, I have a shot of that location in my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS. It is very close to the Fashion Place Mall, and it does give a good indication of how "worked up" Bundy was to attack her even before he'd cleared civilization, as it were. Once he did the U-turn on the side street which runs between the mall and the cleaners, it was only half a block until he turned left onto Fashion Blvd (this street may have had a different name at that time?), and then only several blocks until he reached the school which was on their right. Of course, being in such a predatory state of mind and failing to capture DaRonch, ensured the destruction of Kent later that evening. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:33, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I agree the attack was "born of necessity" too, as she was becoming very suspicious of him. However, Bundy's usual ploy of articulate lies flowing through the mask wasn't even attempted by him at this time. At the point Carol DaRonch became uncomfortable, I don't believe she was a hundred percent convinced he wasn't a policeman, but she was getting there quickly. As such, it is a bit surprising (at least to me) that he didn't try to calm her fears through the same tactics he'd used dozens of times before, so as to reach a better location for the attack. In my opinion, his departure from this has to do with his predatory state of mind (altered state), along with the alcohol, and as such, he lost control of the situation. I do not believe he was drunk, as she would have noticed intoxication prior to merely smelling alcohol on his breath. Perhaps I'm wrong, but personally, I believe that Bundy's state of mind worked against him at that moment, and perhaps the altered state he reveled in when he truly had his victims safely with him, got the best of him in the midst of the hunt. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 18:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
"but I can't help it" Yes, me too! Oh yes, they were flowing, but they flew out the window on the drive away from the mall (I'll stop now, LOL!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmsullivan12 ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
We've got an IP editor from Denmark who is editing the article in violation of WP:CONSISTENCY, switching listing kilometers before miles. [8] I have pointed out the error of their ways on their talk page, but they will not listen. Will someone kindly revert their third attempt to introduce this incorrect and useless change? I am well within avoiding 3RR, but I want others to show them that them reverting over and over is not the way to "win" around here. Thanks. Doc talk 23:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
The article states: "In mid-1988 the Eleventh Circuit ruled against Bundy, and in December the Supreme Court denied a motion to review the ruling. Within hours of that final denial a firm execution date—January 24, 1989—was announced."
In December 1988 Bundy's lawyers filed their petition to review the ruling. It was denied on January 17, 1989 at 10:00 AM. Within minutes the execution date was set [Mello 104]. Martinez had signed a one-week warrant rather than the usual one-month warrant. Raduffus ( talk) 02:49, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I know I've brought this up before, but I can't find it: at least I can't find a section for this issue. I'm aware that Michaud & Aynesworth claim that Joni Lenz was assaulted with a speculum, and go into detail about it; and I'm also aware that the majority of sources claim that it was a bed rod from her own bed, and make no mention of a speculum whatsoever. The sources claim that he beat her and sexually assaulted her with a rod from her own bed frame. Whether this is true or not: it is quite reliably sourced. My concern is that we are not representing the consensus of reliable sources by not even mentioning the bed rod scenario, and the speculum scenario is only (to my knowledge) found in one instance. I think this needs to be addressed, and I'd appreciate any input on how it should be best be done before I boldly attempt to do it. Doc talk 08:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
You have raised an interesting point. Now, I can't be completely certain, but there may be something in the official record about it being a speculum. I have thousands of pages of documents from the case (all now packed away), and during my research, I believe the speculum is mentioned. I do not believe a bed rod is mentioned, but this isn't conclusive proof it wasn't a bed rod. And, I assumed Bundy received the speculum from his time with Ped Line Medical Supplies where he began working in May of 1970. That said, since the issue of the bed rod has been raised, then perhaps it should be mentioned as possibly being the "weapon" Bundy used that night; if, in fact,there is something in the record pointing to it. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 17:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi Doc...Well, very often, documentaries are rife with mistakes about particulars of the case, so these mentions do not move me. However, the mention from Ann Rule I would consider, as the info may have come from someone close to the case. It doesn't "prove" anything, of course, but it may be something that can give validity to the bed rod thing. Not so much the docs, however.
As to my book, THE BUNDY MURDERS: Try to pick up a copy from a library or through some other source, as I think you'll be surprised at how much new information is there (and thankfully, the publisher finally reduced the price of both the trade paper and eBook editions!). When writing it, I was not just on the "hunt" for new info, but I triple checked (or more) all the facts, dates, etc. I was determined to leave nothing to speculation, and where something couldn't be positively presented as fact, it was never presented as such Kmsullivan12 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I do identify the instrument as a speculum. M&A stated it, and as I say, I seem to remember actually finding a reference to it in the record. There is nothing in the records I have stating anything like a bed rod. Because of this, I had no reason to believe otherwise; and in fact, it's just the type of medical device Bundy could have obtained at Ped Line. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 20:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, I can't speak for what Rule found in the official record, but whatever she was privy to at that time from any actual report, is housed today (and available to all) in the King County Archives. When I made mention above on what Rule may have obtained, I was thinking the info may have come from a source close to the case other than a written report (a conversation with a detective?), and as such, it could very well be valid. I say this as I just don't recall anything in the written record about a rod. And if it isn't in the massive records that I was privy to when doing my research, then perhaps it doesn't exist in any official record. In any event, you're correct that this info, valid or not, is "out there", so it's wise to include it here. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 03:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I would leave it speculum, as I feel this was most likely what Bundy used. That said, it would be permissible --perhaps even wise-- to say: (some sources have cited a bed rod as being the instrument Bundy used during the attack), or something of this nature. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 14:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
It's fine with me if the instrument is identified as a bed rod, with the addition of: "some sources have cited a speculum as being the instrument Bundy used during the attack". We cannot prove which is correct, of course, so mentioning both is a plus for the article. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 18:36, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I just checked The Only Living Witness at Google Books and searched "speculum". It's first listed on page 28: "He took a heavy metal rod to her head, thrashing at her repeatedly. A speculum, or vaginal probe...had been thrust..." Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 01:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
So apparently, according to M&A, both a rod and a speculum were used. In my book, I say she was beaten about the head (no mention of the rod), and that he vaginally assaulted her with the speculum Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 02:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, the issue of bed rod verses speculum may not be an issue at all. Perhaps they were both used. I wish I had the time to unpack my Bundy boxes and look for those references to the speculum, etc, but I'm just too busy. Maybe a small point, yes, but it's like we're a part of this Bundy case think-tank and we won't be satisfied until we find out the truth; that is, if the truth is still available. Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 22:15, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
So I applied a few edits (
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ted_Bundy&diff=520379602&oldid=520379122) and explained why, but they were quickly reverted twice. I was invited to justify my edits (elaborating beyond the explanation in the Edit Summary, presumably), so I'll start. One of the most significant edits pertained to Bundy's diagnosis.
The statement that the 'majority of evidence' suggested Ted Bundy was probably not mentally disturbed but had ASPD appears to be based on this passage on p13 in The Only Living Witness: The True Story of Serial Sex Killer Ted Bundy: 'the only doctor who did not assume Ted Bundy was a killer was also the only doctor not to conclude he was mentally disturbed. Once the assumption of guilt was made, nearly all the classic criteria of Antisocial Personality Disorder were identified and duly noted in him; violence, disregard for truth and social norms, thieving, impulsivity, inability to feel guilt or remorse and all the rest.'
It looks as if one doctor's diagnosis has been treated in this article as the 'probable diagnosis', and alternative diagnoses, e.g. of possible bipolar, various psychoses, etc. have been treated as 'much less likely', although the passage suggests that the former view was in the overwhelming minority! It appears that one or two editors have favored the view of one diagnosis and downplayed the diagnoses of other experts in the field, resulting in a non-
neutral statement. That the 'the majority of evidence pointed away from bipolar disorder or other psychoses, and toward antisocial personality disorder (ASPD)' looks to be
synthesized at best as there doesn't appear to be any confirmation of this in the sources used.
For instance, there doesn't appear to be anything about Bundy on p136 if at all in A Layperson's Guide to Criminal Law, nor in the other sources merely describing attributes of ASPD or related personality disorders. The only source close to the statement that associates Bundy with a possible diagnosis of ASPD is the one mentioned above, which, as explained, doesn't appear to support the statement. --
Xagg (
talk) 22:48, 29 October 2012 (UTC); updated 14:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
I realize DSM IV does not have a diagnosis of "evil" but the two statements about the episodes of "dissociation" are not correlates of ASPD. The statement from his attorney Browne in an interview needs more attention too. "Bundy knew what he was doing. 'Most sociopaths never admit they’re evil at all,' said Mr Browne. 'Ted really knew he was evil. Evil, evil, evil. And, believe me, really evil.' Dale Matson ( talk) 23:03, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Another thing I'm confused about is that the paragraph on his ASPD diagnosis also seems to imply ASPD is synonymous with modern notions of sociopathy or psychopathy. The paragraph says ASPD used to be referred to as those (not sure if that's true as there's nothing about it in the citation), but regardless of that, supposedly - nowadays at least - they are not synonymous with ASPD (although occasionally they are used liberally as synonyms), yet a few of the sources in the paragraph are references to modern usage of sociopathy or psychopathy, with nothing about ASPD in them. One example is the sentence using this source:
And the next sentence then refers to sociopaths, in its modern meaning, as having a certain characteristic, when the source used for it is a diagnosis of ASPD, not sociopathy:
So it looks like over time a few statements got through that confused ASPD with the modern meanings of sociopathy or psychopathy, or vice versa. Bundy's diagnosis was ASPD, and even if it used to be referred to as sociopathy or psychopathy, they apparently have their own meanings now, which the above sources appear to be referring to, in which case they are probably misplaced in that paragraph.
I'm sure that Bundy would be considered a psychopath or sociopath by today's standards, but currently there isn't any connection established in the article between Bundy's ASPD diagnosis and modern notions of sociopathy or psychopathy, so if the stuff about the modern notions of sociopathy or psychopathy aren't removed from the paragraph then maybe a connection should be established.--
Xagg (
talk) 14:49, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Confusion about ASPD, sociopathy and psychopathy seems to be rampant on Wikipedia lately. The short story is that they all mean the exact same thing. ASPD is a term that was created by the APA to be the new name for sociopath, which earlier was created to be the new name for psychopath. The APA is an American organization, so right away there are lots of people around the world using the original terms. Popular sources also use the terms that are not as long and awkward. The terms are interchangeable because when professional groups refer to old studies talking about psychopathy or sociopathy before ASPD was even created as a term they refer to the old study as a study on ASPD.
It is trivial to find reliable sources calling Ted Bundy a psychopath or a sociopath, whether in their popular or professional contexts.
Part of the problem might be that somebody introduced the incorrect idea into the ASPD WIkipedia article that it was completely different from psychopathy. Maybe people read that and took it at its word despite the poor sourcing and ignoring the previous versions of the article and the article talk page that already discussed the situation in more detail. DreamGuy ( talk) 03:29, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree that a some of this is more properly discussed on these terms' talk pages -- but since the original assertion, above, was that the terms were all synonymous, it's important to demonstrate -- here -- that that statement is incorrect. Here is a historical perspective from a Professor of Psychiatry acquaintance -- and before anyone says anything, I get that the following does not constitute RS; and I have already asked him to point me toward some published sources that I can use as citations -- but clearly, the distinction is not as simple as DreamGuy and others would like to believe:
Well, I guess that's clear as mud. The fact, though, is that the 3 terms are not interchangeable -- and the present wording in the article, which implies that they are, is not correct, despite all of the misinformed stuff, written by people who are not mental health professionals, asserting the opposite. I'm now working on assembling some real RS (as opposed to the lay literature cited above) so we can put this to bed, at least for a while. DoctorJoeE talk to me! 15:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Of the sources I provided, two of them (Robert Hare and Martin Kantor) are *undeniably* amongst the foremost experts on this area of psychology. To claim that they are "misinformed" or "lay literature" is just absurd. The other sources are equally valid per WP:RS rules as secondary sources demonstrating wide agreement in the field. I am not seeing any policy-based reason to ignore these sources. Arguments that are variations of "well, what *I* think is..." or "I'm not seeing..." or "my anonymous friend says..." certainly do not cut it. DreamGuy ( talk) 03:36, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I should also point out that it's bizarre that people were disputing a diagnosis that is widely supported and reported on pretty much in any source ever written about the case as supposedly having insufficient sources while at the same time a section totally pulling a claim of evidence of dissociative identity disorder out of thin air based upon some editor's personal interpretation of some things a couple people said remained in the article untouched the whole time. I removed it as an obvious violation of policy. DreamGuy ( talk) 04:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, Doc, your instinct was right on; so much for assuming good faith. Might even have been the same troll. I'll be a little less naive next time. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/ talk to me! 15:19, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Trolls on parade, LOL! Kmsullivan12 ( talk) 02:59, 20 May 2013 (UTC)