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The Criticism section might be bias against neoclassical models — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.49.212.64 ( talk) 16:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
2/5/07- Replaced a paragraph in Criticism which was, not just arguably biased as mentioned above, but totally inaccurrate -- under the neoclassical model of economics no technocrat ruler would decide to close down a factory; instead the owner would close it down in response to market conditions. I added a paragraph with two examples from the left and right sides of the spectrum criticizing technocracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.119.23 ( talk) 05:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone added some stuff to the 'criticism' section that's way too specific for this particular article (any mention of the 'Technate'). I think there's another 'Technocracy' article on Wikipedia that it belongs in, if not it should probably be deleted or moved.
AustinZ 04:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I think he has a good point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.61.72.172 ( talk) 12:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this zeitgeist movement wikipedia article would be greatly improved if it was deleted right now. Bornofaduck ( talk) 03:03, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
I've trimmed up the page to filter clear anti-technocracy bias. The assertion that Technocracy is opposed to democracy and some of the allegations about the nature of technocracy itself were unfounded, and appeared more as propaganda than an objective representation.
Technocracy in and of itself is not opposed to Democracy (though some forms of democracy are incompatible), communism, monarchy, a despotic dictatorship, or a republic. Democratic, monarchial and communist technocracies, aren't only possible, they're all entirely feasible as emergent phenomena in the world today.
~LucaviX — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.132.243.130 ( talk) 01:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
This article does not express what is almost always meant when the word "Technocracy" is used. If the definition used here is legitimate at all, it is a vanishingly insignificant use of the word by a few people in the 1930s. The first sentence is particularly wrong: it is a good description of meritocracy, not technocracy. The overwhelmingly usual meaning is that given by the OED:
The control of society or industry by technical experts; a ruling body of such experts. Technocracy has been the name of various groups advocating the technical control of society, esp. Technocracy, Inc., established in New York in 1932-3 by Howard Scott. 1919 W. H. SMYTH in Industr. Management Mar. 211/2 For this unique experiment in rationalized Industrial Democracy I have coined the term ‘technocracy’. 1932 N.Y. Herald-Tribune 15 Dec. 11/1 Technocracy..the name for a new system and philosophy of government, in which the nation's industrial resources should be organized and managed by technically competent persons for the good of everyone instead of being left to the management of private interests for their own advantage. 1945 C. S. LEWIS That Hideous Strength xii. 318 The effect of modern war is to eliminate retrogressive types, while sparing the technocracy and increasing its hold upon public affairs. 1947 Mind LVI. 164 Such notions as social and economic planning, technocracy,..the denial of natural rights and individual liberties, etc., are due to them [sc. French Utopians, St. Simon, etc.] more than to Godwin or the Utilitarians. 1955 Times 23 May 3/4 On the unlikely day when England elects a benevolent technocracy to power a Bill will be passed forbidding more than one performance per year per town of such works as The Messiah, the St. Matthew Passion, [etc.]. 1975 Political Studies XXIII. 82 Nevertheless, if technocracy means rule not just by individuals who are members of a particular technocratic élite, but rule by a technocratic class as such, one has to show that the latter has either a common interest to defend or a common ideology to pursue.
Hence {sm}technocrat, (a) an advocate of technocracy; (b) a member of a technocracy, a technologist exercising administrative power; techno{sm}cratic a.; tech{sm}nocratism. 1932 Sun (Baltimore) 12 Dec. 6/3 The Technocrats, thanks..largely to a peculiarly fetching ‘trade label’ which embodies in one word two of the most far-reaching of current concepts, technology and democracy, are succeeding in a remarkable degree in breaking down the apathy. 1932 N.Y. Herald-Tribune 15 Dec. 11/2 The haunts of technocratic science were situated at numerous places about town, principally in cubbyhole restaurants in Greenwich village. 1933 Times Lit. Suppl. 26 Jan. 46/2 An age that was already substituting the technocrat for the monarch. 1945 C. S. LEWIS That Hideous Strength xii. 318 It was not the great technocrats of Koenigsberg or Moscow who supplied the casualties in the siege of Stalingrad. 1949 Mind LVIII. 416 Lersch denies the widely accepted thesis that man's uniqueness consists in his activities (activism, pragmatism, technocratism) since these are characteristic only of the Male's relation to the world. 1957 London Mag. Jan. 48 Sprawling in my revolving chair, behind a man-sized desk, I could imagine myself a brisk and efficient technocrat, a kind of highbrow tycoon. 1958 Times Lit. Suppl. 26 Dec. 751/1 Either tending towards reliance on a tradition which has been made obsolete..or else attempting a technocratic rule for which no tradition exists. 1965 W. H. G. ARMYTAGE Rise of Technocrats v. 66 St. Simonians were the first technocrats: apostles of the religion of industry. 1974 J. WHITE tr. Poulantzas's Fascism & Dictatorship V. ii. 254 Imperialist ideology in effect represents a displacement of domination within bourgeois ideology itself, from the juridico-political region which was dominant in liberal~bourgeois ideology to economic technocratism. 1980 Times 11 Aug. 11/1 Dr Hoss was chosen after the Syrian~imposed end to the civil war in 1976 to head a ‘technocratic’, ie non-political, government.
I must leave correction of the article to others (gotta run and won't be online for days). JDG 21:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone has reverted my edit, so instead I'll post the website here until it can be properly added to the article following the sentence, "It should be noted that this opinion is not mainstream among technocrats." Right after this sentence a reference should be cited that I have found and added to the footnotes explaining the mainstream opinion of technocrats. This is the website I wanted to link in the footnotes http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V65-4379FJW-9&_user=783137&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000043272&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=783137&md5=9f390e071bd916535f92611049966dc3. If someone has the technical expertise to add a citation, please do so using this link right after the sentence mentioned above in the 'Derogatory Usage of Technocrat' section. Thank you. Make sure to properly link it from the 'Derogatory Usage of Technocrat' section to the footnotes, and finally to the website. Thank you again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.162.53 ( talk) 23:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
You are all aware that this is the 21st century and not the 20th century correct? Some portions of the article were written as though the author was unaware of this fact. 4.157.68.228 ( talk) 00:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
As a new user to wikipedia, I had put weight behind Skipievert, until I read up his profile out of curiousity, and learned that others considered his opinions biased.. your milage may vary, but multiple viewpoints are very helpful/interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Skipsievert "This user has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia." (see: block log- http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Skipsievert) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.150.86 ( talk) 22:06, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
It was long and rambling... and totally unsourced. skip sievert ( talk) 20:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The article is marked to delete un-sourced material. All that section was unreferenced and un-sourced. It did not really seem to be connected to any thing. It was all conflicted statement. skip sievert ( talk) 02:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
It was deleted because it is totally made up of weasel words and conjecture. skip sievert ( talk) 15:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
You are right. More as to that in a comment about your projected addition to the article. skip sievert ( talk) 04:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Smyth, William Henry. "'Technocracy'—Ways and Means to Gain Industrial Democracy," Industrial Management (57) 1919. Stabile, Donald R. "Veblen and the Political Economy of the Engineer: the radical thinker and engineering leaders came to technocratic ideas at the xzame time," American Journal of Economics and Sociology (45:1) 1986, 41-52. Veblen, Thornstein. Engineers and the Price System. New York: Viking Press, 1944. Towne, Henry R. "The Engineer as an Economist," Transactions of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, 1886.
Technocracy is one solution to a problem faced by engineers in the early twentieth century. Following Samuel HaberHaber, Samuel. Efficiency and Uplift Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1964. Donald Stabile argues that engineers were faced with a conflict between physical efficency and cost efficiency in the new corporate capitalist enterprises of the late nineteenth century USA.
Engineers heatedly discussed these issues in US engineering journals and proceedings. Three ideological outcomes were produced. Firstly, Taylorism which integrates price structures into engineering concerns, thus producing scientific management where the capitalist manager and engineer divide control over the production process and working class between themselves. Secondly, building on Taylorism the Soviet Union implemented socialist- Taylorism where economic planning, a political bureaucracy and a technical elite divided control over the economy through institutions like the GOELRO plan or five year plans. While political concerns influenced Soviet planning, and engineers were politically persecuted; the political bureaucracy designed plans so as to achieve technical outcomes, and used production price accounting as a technical, rather than economic measure. Finally, in the United States a view that technical concerns should take precedence developed among engineers such as William Howard Smyth based on the early conception of Industrial democracy which was limited merely to the technical government of firms. This school of thought amongst engineers eventually produced social institutions arguing for purely technical government of society in the 1930s. Fifelfoo ( talk) 03:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Footnotes citations for article relating to Techinc... and wiki article reference added. skip sievert ( talk) 14:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Didn't Superman The Movie (1978) have Krypton run by a body of scientists on a council? As such, Krypton was run with a Technocracy government. Another "Technocracy in Media" point for consideration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.201.167.124 ( talk) 20:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Reply: Please understand that Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia of sorts... not a debate forum on the omnipotent nature of "things." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daleyjem ( talk • contribs) 02:44, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Since there's a decent effort at explaining the differences between beauraucracy and technocracy shouldn't the title be changed to Technocracy (government form)?? Mdw0 ( talk) 03:21, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
In Toward a Rational Society, Habermas puts forward a good critique of technocracy, (which I'd say is an approach to or ideology of government as opposed to a form of government). I'd like to see a connection here, but I'm not sure I'm the right one 146.115.123.180 ( talk) 02:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
08/05/2012 How does Technocracy fail? That is, is it failsafe, or is it catastrophic, economically? How many articles do I need to read... is bureaucratic technocracy the one that fails when managers limit access to education and training to favored individuals, rather than merely holding the meritorious responsible for making something of any training they have demanded.
Are there technocratic corporations or companies? Is Microsoft internally technocratic? I'll agree it's a hard question to certify in a scholarly sense, but people looking for precedent might ask it very reasonably. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamiltek ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't technocracy be a subgroup of meritocracy on the list of government types?-- 158.39.240.120 ( talk) 09:42, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
All the other forms of government are named just that. How about we move this page to Technocracy, and move what there now to 'Technocracy (disambiguation)'? LK ( talk) 07:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
since been couple of days and no objections
moved Technocracy to Technocracy_(disambiguation)
requested move of Technocracy (bureaucratic) to Technocracy
will add disambiguation link here and check for any links that need fixing when move done,
Firebladed (
talk)
11:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't like the sentence "Workers do not perform according to the specifications of the engineer's plans" which sounds like a strict assertion denoting a discrimination toward the Workers class, like if Workers were "bastards who never obey". It misses a "if" or a "when" to make it neutral, or the name of the author who pretended that.
Beside, if you can read the French version (the English translations are awful) of Henri Fayol "Administration Industrielle et Générale", you'll find a perfect "how to" manual of technocracy. But AFAIK nothing has been published on this aspect of that book yet (the bad translations could be in cause: all sociological term were removed, and the words supporting political preconceptions [socialist ideas] were mistranslated). I think that would make a good Master Thesis in Political Science.
-- Silwilhith ( talk) 19:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I take issue with the sentence: "In all cases technical and leadership skills are selected through bureaucratic processes on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than democratic elections." This is not strictly true, as a society which highly values technical skill and competence could elect technocrats democratically (this would still qualify as a technocracy if those skills were the predominant factor in elections). While this may not be the most common case today, it does seem to be an increasing trend, especially if we are headed towards an Information society. It is a valid point that technocrats are generally selected bureaucratically, but the absolute language is fallacious. Ian Burnet ( talk) 00:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I cannot see how the former Soviet Union was a Technocracy, it is a socailist republic and had one political party, Communist. Nor can China be a Technocracy because they are have communism and is a socialsit state, similar to the USSR. So both of those statments at the bottom of the introduction should be removed, unless one can provide proof that USSR and China are described as a Technocracy.- Space Commander Plasma ( talk) 00:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, because most governments are based on an economy of Scarcity and monetary systems, rather than on resources and post sacrcity economy with an energy accounting system.- Space Commander Plasma ( talk) 03:26, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
I have talked to some technocrats and they disagree, the Soviet Union was a socialist republic not a Technocracy. Space Commander Plasma ( talk) 05:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
'Who cares what kind of government it had'? end quote Sark6354201. The article is about a form of projected type of government called a Technocracy, it is not about little aspects of technocratic things connected to the Soviet Union or China etc. Example:
Scott and the fascinating Technocracy movement he founded proposed that dollars and money be replaced by energy certificates denominated in units such as ergs or joules, equivalent in total amount to the appropriate national net energy budget, which could then be divided equally among all members of the North American Continental Technate. The Technocrats argued that apolitical, rational engineers should be vested with authority to guide the nation's economic machine into a thermodynamically balanced load of production and consumption, thereby doing away with unemployment, debt and social injustice --- source [7]
The soviet system was a patronage special faction controlled society based on Marx and the glorification of human toil. It was a traditional approach based on labor theories of value like capitalism was/is. Its completely different. They used the Ruble money not any type of energy measure system which is the basis of a Technocracy.
Suggestion. An article about the influence of Technocracy and its different word meanings can solve this issue. It would breakdown different uses of the word. Could someone start one, or does one exist on Wikipedia already? Maybe [Political Cultural Influences Of Technocracy] i.d.k. what title would be good. Then articles about Singapore or the Soviet system being influenced by various technocratic thinking would fit in there. Fidel Drumbo 00:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FidelDrumbo ( talk • contribs)
The revision of what I posted looks good, I'm glad we could reach a sort of compromise! Sark6354201 ( talk) 16:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
What about segregation that used to take place in Soviet institutions of higher education: those who received high grades and good diplomas were: 1) those who were especially good, bright and smart students, and also 2) those who were active at "social work" and in Komsomol (the "Communistic Union of the Young"); the first (educated) then went on to become good engineers, and the second (uneducated) became rulers of the country? => I wonder whether mr. Graham was the only one who referred to USSR as a technocracy (and whether he did so for his own motives rather than for the sake of truth); quite likely he was the only one, but is this really so? - 91.122.12.152 ( talk) 19:16, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Since we're starting to see an edit-war over the use of the Monad as a symbol of Technocracy, I figured it should have its own section on the discussion page. Note, for example, that when one goes to many other pages for major political movements, there are pictures associated with the articles. They range from the anonymous "A" of Anarchism, to the flag of Italian Fascism on the Fascism page, to a picture of people stuffing ballots in a box on the Democracy page. In addition, many of those pages contain pictures of major intellectual figures in these movements, as well as symbols of political groups. Personally, I don't see why the Monad is any different, nor do I see why the fact that Technocracy, Inc., is organized as a non-profit corporation has anything to do with anything...since many political organizations are incorporated similarly. Bryonmorrigan ( talk) 13:04, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Removed this:
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, on Marxists.org: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch01.htm: "In 1816, he declares that politics is the science of production, and foretells the complete absorption of politics by economics. The knowledge that economic conditions are the basis of political institutions appears here only in embryo. Yet what is here already very plainly expressed is the idea of the future conversion of political rule over men into an administration of things and a direction of processes of production."</ref> Scientific socialist theorist Friedrich Engels had a similar view; the state would die out and ceases to be a state when the government of people and interference in social affairs is replaced by an administration of things and technical processes.Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Engels, Fredrick. "The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society—the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society—this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not abolished. It dies out."
Not connection to Technocracy or that movement. It was never a utopian concept, and the 'state' was never meant to 'wither away' It was an ordinary government structure or form of government. No connection with scientific socialism or Communism or Capitalism or Socialism http://web.archive.org/web/20020721043025/http://technocracysf.org/tech-defined.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by FidelDrumbo ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
According to this file and every other thing available on this subject the info. added by Laurence khoo is not accurate.
”What Technocracy has always contended is that if sufficient energy consuming devices are installed and the total amount of extraneous energy consumed per capita reaches or exceeds 200,000 kilogram calories per capita per day, toil and workers alike will be eliminated, and, when toil is eliminated, the bourgeoisie will likewise go down the drain of history. Technocracy has always contended that Marxian political philosophy and Marxian economics were never sufficiently radical or revolutionary to handle the problems brought on by the impact of technology in a large size national society of today. It is sufficiently revolutionary to be of some importance and temporary application to under-developed areas of the globe. We have always contended that Marxian communism, so far as this Continent is concerned, is so far to the right that it is bourgeois. source https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfx7rfr2_10fqbv5t but the file is available through many sites including the official site and internet archive site also. Fidel Drumbo 04:28, 4 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FidelDrumbo ( talk • contribs)
Interestingly enough Michael G. Smith "Marx, technocracy, and the corporatist ethos" Studies in East European Thought 36:4 233–250 DOI: 10.1007/BF02342284 directly asserts and demonstrates as the central element of their peer reviewed paper that Marx and Engel's conception of both the lower and higher stages of communism were inherently technocratic. Studies in East European Thought is a higher quality and more scholarly source than technocracysf or google docs last time I checked. Fifelfoo ( talk) 04:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
There's been a bit of edit warring over the section 'Precursors'. Reviewing the sources, I'ld say that they range from the 'definitely reliable' to 'iffy, but reliable about their own opinion'. They are also relevant as they directly address the topic of Technocracy, and so should not be removed from the article. There may be a bit of WP:SYN involved in the writing of the paragraph, but this can be taken care of with some judicious rewriting. It's clear that the section should be there, perhaps rewritten a bit to make it clear where the viewpoints is coming from. I've thus reinstated it on a temporary basis, but suggest that the sources be reviewed and the paragraph tweaked to better reflect the sources and to state clearly where the viewpoint is coming from. LK ( talk) 02:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I noticed there was no information stated in the article on any recent technocratic organisations or activity. Whether or not there should be a dedicated section or some other form of integration in the article is open to debate, without this information however one gets the impression from the article that technocracy is a dead or stagnant movement. That however is far from the truth and the organisations in mind have broader contributions and activities than mentioned in the article.
My suggestion would be a section on recent developments and the activities that the organisations are involved with. In that way the section contributes to technocracy as a system where as a list of recent organisations could be irrelevant.
To aid discussion and referencing here are some useful sources, it would be good to have some U.S sources to if anyone can provide some?
1 - EU Technate group: http://www.technate.eu/index.php : A group of collaborating technocratic organisations.
2 - European Organisation for sustainability : http://www.eoslife.eu/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.207.229 ( talk) 12:33, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I came here looking for a list of examples of past technocratic governments but there isn't one. I know that there would be some controversial additions to such a list but there would be several examples at least. Would Italy's forthcoming government be such an example?-- ЗAНИA talk WB talk] 20:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Would it be possible to have a note in the lead explaining this difference to the uninitiated? It just seems odd that the article does not address the "common" usage of the term, and until it does people will come here saying "Italy is a technocracy" etc. for the next year or so. Something like "Although unrelated to the concept discussed in this article, the term "Technocratic" has been applied by news media to a government headed, for example, by an unelected economist such as the Italian governments of Lamberto Dini and Mario Monti, and the Greek government of Lucas Papademos. However such governments do not exhibit the features of a true technocracy." Would this be acceptable to both experts and non-experts? I agree that lists of such governments are not relevant to this article, but an explanation of why they aren't relevant is relevant to the article...if that makes any sense 129.234.189.85 ( talk) 15:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why economists (and indeed businessmen) were excluded from the definition of technocracy on this page? (See also this discussion on the Mario Monti talk page.) MistyMorn ( talk) 23:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Will someone kindly word/structure the lede in such a way as to incorporate the broader usage of the word "technocracy", including the OED definition? I don't know what criteria were used in the selection of
Berndt (1982) to cover the overall definition of the term in the present article. However, exclusive use of such a restrictive definition appears to contradict broader usage, as per the OED, and invalidates legitimate wikilinks from other articles.
MistyMorn (
talk)
09:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
The first sentence of this article itself seems to incorrectly define "Technocracy" as a whole. While certain sentences of description in this article seem rather lengthy, the initial sentence seems far too short; especially in regard to the importance that proper definition of differing forms of government might hold. It is of my opinion that the initial sentence of this article places too great a responsibility on technocracy to "be in control of all decision making." A technocratic society uses its knowledge of science and technology as a means to progress the legitimacy of ideas, not to claim power over ideas that have no recognizable adherence to fact. Please don't underestimate the importance of the first sentence in these articles, regardless of how accurate their underlying elements may seem. Rather, use the the legitimacy of those underlying ideas to more accurately develop the initial definitions of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daleyjem ( talk • contribs) 02:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Are there any states that would have been classified as technocratic entities? Perhaps certain Italian city-states that existed during the Italian Renaissance? Were not the majority of the rules patricians of the arts and sciences? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.239.7.5 ( talk) 15:51, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
A while back I emboldened the word "Technocrat", and someone reverted my edit. Seeing as Technocrat redirects here, I see no reason why the word should not be bold. Are there any objections? 14:06, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The democratic system survives faction by checks and balances. The system of Technocracy is Utopian, but in practice would soon fail. The "Head Technocrat in Charge," can, through nepotism, or cronyism, control access to training of well qualified individuals, while promoting unqualified individuals at will.
One check/balance, would be to guarantee access to training, by requiring an individual to make the class pay for itself, before moving on to any new course, or programming language, etc. This falls to the problem of aptitude. I had interest, but not aptitude for my first college major. Under a system deterring the laziness of the professional student by forcing that accountability, an individual unfortunate enough to take a course or major in which he was not apt, would see his career die outright, even without faction.
Hamiltek ( talk) 17:12, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Please reference:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/277o4q/correcting_reddits_chronic_misunderstanding_of/
This article is mishmash of ignorance of the original late 19th and early 20th century technocratic philosophers and treats the Technocracy movement of the 1930's and it's ideas as being the standard of technocratic thought.
Specifically, the idea that technocracy is authoritarian is absurd, as well as the idea that you can have a "technocracy" in addition to some other form of governance. While it's certainly possible to have a technocratic Democracy, or technocratic Socialist Republic, or whatever else, these are not technocracies in the original sociopolitical philosophical sense of the term. Technocracy is *explicitly* a post-capitalist socioeconomic structure, in the same vein as Communism being *explicitly* a stateless, classless society. That the layperson is far too unintelligent to make these distinctions, and thus give rise to colloquial stupidity such as saying the USSR was a communist state, is immaterial to the fact that Communism has never existed, the same that Technocracy has never existed, nor will ever exist until an egalitarian, post-capitalist, post-scarcity automation economy managed by technical experts comes to fruition.
This article is a pile of lay garbage written by contributors who have obviously never read the formative literature on the topic with any depth or breadth whatsoever.
Here is a proposed version of the article:
Technocracy is a proposed form of government in which technical experts, including scientists and engineers, participate in various fields of governmental decision-making. The term technocratic refers to 'a member of a technical elite', including non-elected professionals at a ministerial level. The word technocracy has also been used to indicate any kind of management or administration in any field, not limited to government.
The term technocracy was originally used to designate the application of the scientific method towards solving social problems, in strong contrast to traditional Western concepts of economic, political, or philosophical ideology. The concept has some basis in Marxism-Leninism, but is opposed to its economic theory; in such an approach, sustainability, rather than only growth in GDP, would be the primary objective of all social-industrial functions. Technical and leadership skills would be valued on the basis of meritocracy, rather than democratic means.
Currently, technocracy only exists only on an authoritarian model, although the term has been proposed historically during the 1920s to be used in democratic governance, ostensibly to remove the influence of special interest groups. Also, there have been examples where democratic governments have applied technocratic principles in practice. Dark Liberty ( talk) 06:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Wow Earl King Jr. Needs to be fired if he indeed works for wikipedia. If not what he is doing seems authoritarian to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.175.54.158 ( talk) 06:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
The citation to Britannica seems like a weak cite, as their page doesn't have any citations on it that I could see.(other than citing other pages of itself)
Daniel Bell was a well respected professor at Harvard. Here is a larger clip of how he described St. Simon's views in his book "The Coming Of Post-industrial Society", page 76-77:
Industrial Society, as St. Simon insisted, was the application of technical knowledge to social affairs in a methodical, systematic way. With industrial society, thus, has come the technicien - the French usage is more apt than the English "technician," for its sense in French is much wider - the trained expert in the applied sciences. It has implied, too, that those who possessed such knowledge would exercise authority - if not power - in the society.
St. Simon's vision of industrial society, a vision of pure technocracy, was a system of planning and rational order in which society would specify its needs and organize the factors of production to achieve them. Industrial society was characterized by two elements, knowledge and organization. Knowledge, he said, was objective. No one had "opinions" on chemistry or mathematics; one either had knowledge or not. The metaphors St. Simon used for organization were an orchestra, a ship and an army, in which each person fulfils a function in accordance with his competence. Although St. Simon clearly outlined the process wherby a nascent bourgeoisie had superseded the feudal nobility, and though he predicted the rise of a large working class, he did not believe that the working class would succeed the bourgeoisie in power. As he tried to show in his sketch of historical development, classes do not rule, for society is always governed by an educated elite. The natural leaders of the working class would therefore be the industrialists and the scientists. He forsaw the dangers of conflict, but did not regard it as inevitable. If an organic society were created, men would accept their place as a principle of justice. The division of labor meant that some men would guide and others would be guided. In a society organized by function and capacity, doctors and engineers and chemists would employ their skills according to objective needs, not in order to gain personal power. These men would be obeyed not because they are masters but because they have technical competence; to be obedient to one's doctor, after all, is a spontaneous but rational act. For this reason the St. Simonians, in a set of phrases that later were used by Engels, gave their new social hierarchy the slogan, "From each according to his capacity, to each according to his performance," and the industrial society, as they describe it, was no longer the "rule over men, but the administration of things."
The administration of things - the substitution of rational judgement for politics - is the hallmark of technocracy.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.189.153 ( talk) 13:39, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I think E-Democracy is some way sharing ideas from Technocracy from its rules for people that used technology (Internet as case) to voting in form of online polling, This way similar to how concept of Technological experts from real life. In way both ideas of two movements that have people can create laws, proposal, devlopment with technological interest and any fields. 2606:A000:85E7:4E00:A9F0:BC80:438A:8556 ( talk) 17:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
I've seen "technocrat" often (mis-?)used perjoratively to imply an autocrat or otherwise unelected official (i.e. imply that they are democratically unaccountable and therefore potentially illegitimate). I don't see such mention of this in the article, nor of any criticism of technocracy (even from those who assume it to be inherently unelected). Does anyone have reliable sources to describe this usage? — Sasuke Sarutobi ( talk) 19:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
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I believe critiques of technocracy are usually couched in the language of critiques of Post-politics. Some of that literature should be mentioned in this article. Sondra.kinsey ( talk) 20:59, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a government which is technocratic. However the idea of this being possible does deserve some serious attention, and this with a view to better understanding about of what our society comprises and how it works.
Many people avoid this matter of society because they imagine it is too complex and difficult or impossible to pin down and to properly understand. This is true if you look at it as having many individual and varied trends, but one can also examine our society as if it were a number of functions, of which many individuals share in common.
As shown in my recent paper “SSRN 2865571 Einstein’s Criterion Applied to Macroeconomics Models” the subject is not so hard to explain as first supposed. I show that when our trading and exchange activities are listed and broken down there are but 19 different kinds of money flows passing between the 6 kinds of functional entities or agents, in the structure of a country’s social system. These entities are: Landlords, Financial Institutions, Householders, Producers, Capitalists and the Government.
By the use of a theoretical, logical and scientific approach, we can then begin to better understand of what our society comprises and how it works. Such an approach is provided in my recent book: "Consequential Macroeconomics--Rationalizing About How Our Society works" which due to its technocratic nature should be added to the list of references, cited in this article. Macrocompassion ( talk) 09:22, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
I think of it as rule by "scientific" dictators. Problem is these dictators need to be appointed by someone, likely the ruler who came out victorious from a revolution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.175.54.158 ( talk) 06:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Could be compared to Gnomes in World of Warcraft, maybe?
2A02:C7D:16E3:5F00:DCCF:3CC7:56DC:9561 ( talk) 15:39, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
(I do not know how to add new drop down sections similar to "history", "precursors" or "characteristics", otherwise i would add it myself.)
The new section would include economic theory that would accompany a technocratic government.
For example, all products in an economy are produced by machines, these products require a certain amount of energy (watts) to produce. So the amount of energy needed to produce all the products in the system would be evenly divided among the population. So if a loaf of bread took 1000 watts of energy to grow the wheat, refine it, mix with spices that also took energy to grow, mix with water that took energy to pump, and bake in an oven that took energy to heat, then that loaf of bread will cost 1000 watts to buy. (Represented in some sort of electronic currency that also charges you watts to run)
I think that this would give the average reader a better idea of what a technocracy is or could be with the proper technology and organisation. (A post scarcity economy where all manual labor is optional, and people are free to innovate/create as they please without the burden of a 9-5 job.) Pierce592 ( talk) 23:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I understand this talk page is already crowded with Critiques critiques from at least 2005, however in my effort to try to clean this page up I'll make a more specific issue, the section appears to incorrectly assume technocracy means "rule of technology companies" rather than anything defined in this article, it makes constant mentions to social media and of all people and platforms, Mark Zuckerberg and Pinterest. I'll look into whether or not it is even a valid criticism of technocracy as "rule of technically experienced". 93.105.178.32 ( talk) 23:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
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The Criticism section might be bias against neoclassical models — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.49.212.64 ( talk) 16:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
2/5/07- Replaced a paragraph in Criticism which was, not just arguably biased as mentioned above, but totally inaccurrate -- under the neoclassical model of economics no technocrat ruler would decide to close down a factory; instead the owner would close it down in response to market conditions. I added a paragraph with two examples from the left and right sides of the spectrum criticizing technocracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.119.23 ( talk) 05:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone added some stuff to the 'criticism' section that's way too specific for this particular article (any mention of the 'Technate'). I think there's another 'Technocracy' article on Wikipedia that it belongs in, if not it should probably be deleted or moved.
AustinZ 04:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I think he has a good point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.61.72.172 ( talk) 12:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this zeitgeist movement wikipedia article would be greatly improved if it was deleted right now. Bornofaduck ( talk) 03:03, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
I've trimmed up the page to filter clear anti-technocracy bias. The assertion that Technocracy is opposed to democracy and some of the allegations about the nature of technocracy itself were unfounded, and appeared more as propaganda than an objective representation.
Technocracy in and of itself is not opposed to Democracy (though some forms of democracy are incompatible), communism, monarchy, a despotic dictatorship, or a republic. Democratic, monarchial and communist technocracies, aren't only possible, they're all entirely feasible as emergent phenomena in the world today.
~LucaviX — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.132.243.130 ( talk) 01:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
This article does not express what is almost always meant when the word "Technocracy" is used. If the definition used here is legitimate at all, it is a vanishingly insignificant use of the word by a few people in the 1930s. The first sentence is particularly wrong: it is a good description of meritocracy, not technocracy. The overwhelmingly usual meaning is that given by the OED:
The control of society or industry by technical experts; a ruling body of such experts. Technocracy has been the name of various groups advocating the technical control of society, esp. Technocracy, Inc., established in New York in 1932-3 by Howard Scott. 1919 W. H. SMYTH in Industr. Management Mar. 211/2 For this unique experiment in rationalized Industrial Democracy I have coined the term ‘technocracy’. 1932 N.Y. Herald-Tribune 15 Dec. 11/1 Technocracy..the name for a new system and philosophy of government, in which the nation's industrial resources should be organized and managed by technically competent persons for the good of everyone instead of being left to the management of private interests for their own advantage. 1945 C. S. LEWIS That Hideous Strength xii. 318 The effect of modern war is to eliminate retrogressive types, while sparing the technocracy and increasing its hold upon public affairs. 1947 Mind LVI. 164 Such notions as social and economic planning, technocracy,..the denial of natural rights and individual liberties, etc., are due to them [sc. French Utopians, St. Simon, etc.] more than to Godwin or the Utilitarians. 1955 Times 23 May 3/4 On the unlikely day when England elects a benevolent technocracy to power a Bill will be passed forbidding more than one performance per year per town of such works as The Messiah, the St. Matthew Passion, [etc.]. 1975 Political Studies XXIII. 82 Nevertheless, if technocracy means rule not just by individuals who are members of a particular technocratic élite, but rule by a technocratic class as such, one has to show that the latter has either a common interest to defend or a common ideology to pursue.
Hence {sm}technocrat, (a) an advocate of technocracy; (b) a member of a technocracy, a technologist exercising administrative power; techno{sm}cratic a.; tech{sm}nocratism. 1932 Sun (Baltimore) 12 Dec. 6/3 The Technocrats, thanks..largely to a peculiarly fetching ‘trade label’ which embodies in one word two of the most far-reaching of current concepts, technology and democracy, are succeeding in a remarkable degree in breaking down the apathy. 1932 N.Y. Herald-Tribune 15 Dec. 11/2 The haunts of technocratic science were situated at numerous places about town, principally in cubbyhole restaurants in Greenwich village. 1933 Times Lit. Suppl. 26 Jan. 46/2 An age that was already substituting the technocrat for the monarch. 1945 C. S. LEWIS That Hideous Strength xii. 318 It was not the great technocrats of Koenigsberg or Moscow who supplied the casualties in the siege of Stalingrad. 1949 Mind LVIII. 416 Lersch denies the widely accepted thesis that man's uniqueness consists in his activities (activism, pragmatism, technocratism) since these are characteristic only of the Male's relation to the world. 1957 London Mag. Jan. 48 Sprawling in my revolving chair, behind a man-sized desk, I could imagine myself a brisk and efficient technocrat, a kind of highbrow tycoon. 1958 Times Lit. Suppl. 26 Dec. 751/1 Either tending towards reliance on a tradition which has been made obsolete..or else attempting a technocratic rule for which no tradition exists. 1965 W. H. G. ARMYTAGE Rise of Technocrats v. 66 St. Simonians were the first technocrats: apostles of the religion of industry. 1974 J. WHITE tr. Poulantzas's Fascism & Dictatorship V. ii. 254 Imperialist ideology in effect represents a displacement of domination within bourgeois ideology itself, from the juridico-political region which was dominant in liberal~bourgeois ideology to economic technocratism. 1980 Times 11 Aug. 11/1 Dr Hoss was chosen after the Syrian~imposed end to the civil war in 1976 to head a ‘technocratic’, ie non-political, government.
I must leave correction of the article to others (gotta run and won't be online for days). JDG 21:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone has reverted my edit, so instead I'll post the website here until it can be properly added to the article following the sentence, "It should be noted that this opinion is not mainstream among technocrats." Right after this sentence a reference should be cited that I have found and added to the footnotes explaining the mainstream opinion of technocrats. This is the website I wanted to link in the footnotes http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V65-4379FJW-9&_user=783137&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000043272&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=783137&md5=9f390e071bd916535f92611049966dc3. If someone has the technical expertise to add a citation, please do so using this link right after the sentence mentioned above in the 'Derogatory Usage of Technocrat' section. Thank you. Make sure to properly link it from the 'Derogatory Usage of Technocrat' section to the footnotes, and finally to the website. Thank you again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.162.53 ( talk) 23:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
You are all aware that this is the 21st century and not the 20th century correct? Some portions of the article were written as though the author was unaware of this fact. 4.157.68.228 ( talk) 00:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
As a new user to wikipedia, I had put weight behind Skipievert, until I read up his profile out of curiousity, and learned that others considered his opinions biased.. your milage may vary, but multiple viewpoints are very helpful/interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Skipsievert "This user has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia." (see: block log- http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Skipsievert) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.150.86 ( talk) 22:06, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
It was long and rambling... and totally unsourced. skip sievert ( talk) 20:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The article is marked to delete un-sourced material. All that section was unreferenced and un-sourced. It did not really seem to be connected to any thing. It was all conflicted statement. skip sievert ( talk) 02:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
It was deleted because it is totally made up of weasel words and conjecture. skip sievert ( talk) 15:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
You are right. More as to that in a comment about your projected addition to the article. skip sievert ( talk) 04:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Smyth, William Henry. "'Technocracy'—Ways and Means to Gain Industrial Democracy," Industrial Management (57) 1919. Stabile, Donald R. "Veblen and the Political Economy of the Engineer: the radical thinker and engineering leaders came to technocratic ideas at the xzame time," American Journal of Economics and Sociology (45:1) 1986, 41-52. Veblen, Thornstein. Engineers and the Price System. New York: Viking Press, 1944. Towne, Henry R. "The Engineer as an Economist," Transactions of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, 1886.
Technocracy is one solution to a problem faced by engineers in the early twentieth century. Following Samuel HaberHaber, Samuel. Efficiency and Uplift Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1964. Donald Stabile argues that engineers were faced with a conflict between physical efficency and cost efficiency in the new corporate capitalist enterprises of the late nineteenth century USA.
Engineers heatedly discussed these issues in US engineering journals and proceedings. Three ideological outcomes were produced. Firstly, Taylorism which integrates price structures into engineering concerns, thus producing scientific management where the capitalist manager and engineer divide control over the production process and working class between themselves. Secondly, building on Taylorism the Soviet Union implemented socialist- Taylorism where economic planning, a political bureaucracy and a technical elite divided control over the economy through institutions like the GOELRO plan or five year plans. While political concerns influenced Soviet planning, and engineers were politically persecuted; the political bureaucracy designed plans so as to achieve technical outcomes, and used production price accounting as a technical, rather than economic measure. Finally, in the United States a view that technical concerns should take precedence developed among engineers such as William Howard Smyth based on the early conception of Industrial democracy which was limited merely to the technical government of firms. This school of thought amongst engineers eventually produced social institutions arguing for purely technical government of society in the 1930s. Fifelfoo ( talk) 03:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Footnotes citations for article relating to Techinc... and wiki article reference added. skip sievert ( talk) 14:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Didn't Superman The Movie (1978) have Krypton run by a body of scientists on a council? As such, Krypton was run with a Technocracy government. Another "Technocracy in Media" point for consideration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.201.167.124 ( talk) 20:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Reply: Please understand that Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia of sorts... not a debate forum on the omnipotent nature of "things." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daleyjem ( talk • contribs) 02:44, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Since there's a decent effort at explaining the differences between beauraucracy and technocracy shouldn't the title be changed to Technocracy (government form)?? Mdw0 ( talk) 03:21, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
In Toward a Rational Society, Habermas puts forward a good critique of technocracy, (which I'd say is an approach to or ideology of government as opposed to a form of government). I'd like to see a connection here, but I'm not sure I'm the right one 146.115.123.180 ( talk) 02:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
08/05/2012 How does Technocracy fail? That is, is it failsafe, or is it catastrophic, economically? How many articles do I need to read... is bureaucratic technocracy the one that fails when managers limit access to education and training to favored individuals, rather than merely holding the meritorious responsible for making something of any training they have demanded.
Are there technocratic corporations or companies? Is Microsoft internally technocratic? I'll agree it's a hard question to certify in a scholarly sense, but people looking for precedent might ask it very reasonably. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamiltek ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't technocracy be a subgroup of meritocracy on the list of government types?-- 158.39.240.120 ( talk) 09:42, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
All the other forms of government are named just that. How about we move this page to Technocracy, and move what there now to 'Technocracy (disambiguation)'? LK ( talk) 07:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
since been couple of days and no objections
moved Technocracy to Technocracy_(disambiguation)
requested move of Technocracy (bureaucratic) to Technocracy
will add disambiguation link here and check for any links that need fixing when move done,
Firebladed (
talk)
11:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't like the sentence "Workers do not perform according to the specifications of the engineer's plans" which sounds like a strict assertion denoting a discrimination toward the Workers class, like if Workers were "bastards who never obey". It misses a "if" or a "when" to make it neutral, or the name of the author who pretended that.
Beside, if you can read the French version (the English translations are awful) of Henri Fayol "Administration Industrielle et Générale", you'll find a perfect "how to" manual of technocracy. But AFAIK nothing has been published on this aspect of that book yet (the bad translations could be in cause: all sociological term were removed, and the words supporting political preconceptions [socialist ideas] were mistranslated). I think that would make a good Master Thesis in Political Science.
-- Silwilhith ( talk) 19:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I take issue with the sentence: "In all cases technical and leadership skills are selected through bureaucratic processes on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than democratic elections." This is not strictly true, as a society which highly values technical skill and competence could elect technocrats democratically (this would still qualify as a technocracy if those skills were the predominant factor in elections). While this may not be the most common case today, it does seem to be an increasing trend, especially if we are headed towards an Information society. It is a valid point that technocrats are generally selected bureaucratically, but the absolute language is fallacious. Ian Burnet ( talk) 00:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I cannot see how the former Soviet Union was a Technocracy, it is a socailist republic and had one political party, Communist. Nor can China be a Technocracy because they are have communism and is a socialsit state, similar to the USSR. So both of those statments at the bottom of the introduction should be removed, unless one can provide proof that USSR and China are described as a Technocracy.- Space Commander Plasma ( talk) 00:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, because most governments are based on an economy of Scarcity and monetary systems, rather than on resources and post sacrcity economy with an energy accounting system.- Space Commander Plasma ( talk) 03:26, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
I have talked to some technocrats and they disagree, the Soviet Union was a socialist republic not a Technocracy. Space Commander Plasma ( talk) 05:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
'Who cares what kind of government it had'? end quote Sark6354201. The article is about a form of projected type of government called a Technocracy, it is not about little aspects of technocratic things connected to the Soviet Union or China etc. Example:
Scott and the fascinating Technocracy movement he founded proposed that dollars and money be replaced by energy certificates denominated in units such as ergs or joules, equivalent in total amount to the appropriate national net energy budget, which could then be divided equally among all members of the North American Continental Technate. The Technocrats argued that apolitical, rational engineers should be vested with authority to guide the nation's economic machine into a thermodynamically balanced load of production and consumption, thereby doing away with unemployment, debt and social injustice --- source [7]
The soviet system was a patronage special faction controlled society based on Marx and the glorification of human toil. It was a traditional approach based on labor theories of value like capitalism was/is. Its completely different. They used the Ruble money not any type of energy measure system which is the basis of a Technocracy.
Suggestion. An article about the influence of Technocracy and its different word meanings can solve this issue. It would breakdown different uses of the word. Could someone start one, or does one exist on Wikipedia already? Maybe [Political Cultural Influences Of Technocracy] i.d.k. what title would be good. Then articles about Singapore or the Soviet system being influenced by various technocratic thinking would fit in there. Fidel Drumbo 00:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FidelDrumbo ( talk • contribs)
The revision of what I posted looks good, I'm glad we could reach a sort of compromise! Sark6354201 ( talk) 16:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
What about segregation that used to take place in Soviet institutions of higher education: those who received high grades and good diplomas were: 1) those who were especially good, bright and smart students, and also 2) those who were active at "social work" and in Komsomol (the "Communistic Union of the Young"); the first (educated) then went on to become good engineers, and the second (uneducated) became rulers of the country? => I wonder whether mr. Graham was the only one who referred to USSR as a technocracy (and whether he did so for his own motives rather than for the sake of truth); quite likely he was the only one, but is this really so? - 91.122.12.152 ( talk) 19:16, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Since we're starting to see an edit-war over the use of the Monad as a symbol of Technocracy, I figured it should have its own section on the discussion page. Note, for example, that when one goes to many other pages for major political movements, there are pictures associated with the articles. They range from the anonymous "A" of Anarchism, to the flag of Italian Fascism on the Fascism page, to a picture of people stuffing ballots in a box on the Democracy page. In addition, many of those pages contain pictures of major intellectual figures in these movements, as well as symbols of political groups. Personally, I don't see why the Monad is any different, nor do I see why the fact that Technocracy, Inc., is organized as a non-profit corporation has anything to do with anything...since many political organizations are incorporated similarly. Bryonmorrigan ( talk) 13:04, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Removed this:
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, on Marxists.org: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch01.htm: "In 1816, he declares that politics is the science of production, and foretells the complete absorption of politics by economics. The knowledge that economic conditions are the basis of political institutions appears here only in embryo. Yet what is here already very plainly expressed is the idea of the future conversion of political rule over men into an administration of things and a direction of processes of production."</ref> Scientific socialist theorist Friedrich Engels had a similar view; the state would die out and ceases to be a state when the government of people and interference in social affairs is replaced by an administration of things and technical processes.Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Engels, Fredrick. "The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society—the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society—this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not abolished. It dies out."
Not connection to Technocracy or that movement. It was never a utopian concept, and the 'state' was never meant to 'wither away' It was an ordinary government structure or form of government. No connection with scientific socialism or Communism or Capitalism or Socialism http://web.archive.org/web/20020721043025/http://technocracysf.org/tech-defined.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by FidelDrumbo ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
According to this file and every other thing available on this subject the info. added by Laurence khoo is not accurate.
”What Technocracy has always contended is that if sufficient energy consuming devices are installed and the total amount of extraneous energy consumed per capita reaches or exceeds 200,000 kilogram calories per capita per day, toil and workers alike will be eliminated, and, when toil is eliminated, the bourgeoisie will likewise go down the drain of history. Technocracy has always contended that Marxian political philosophy and Marxian economics were never sufficiently radical or revolutionary to handle the problems brought on by the impact of technology in a large size national society of today. It is sufficiently revolutionary to be of some importance and temporary application to under-developed areas of the globe. We have always contended that Marxian communism, so far as this Continent is concerned, is so far to the right that it is bourgeois. source https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfx7rfr2_10fqbv5t but the file is available through many sites including the official site and internet archive site also. Fidel Drumbo 04:28, 4 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FidelDrumbo ( talk • contribs)
Interestingly enough Michael G. Smith "Marx, technocracy, and the corporatist ethos" Studies in East European Thought 36:4 233–250 DOI: 10.1007/BF02342284 directly asserts and demonstrates as the central element of their peer reviewed paper that Marx and Engel's conception of both the lower and higher stages of communism were inherently technocratic. Studies in East European Thought is a higher quality and more scholarly source than technocracysf or google docs last time I checked. Fifelfoo ( talk) 04:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
There's been a bit of edit warring over the section 'Precursors'. Reviewing the sources, I'ld say that they range from the 'definitely reliable' to 'iffy, but reliable about their own opinion'. They are also relevant as they directly address the topic of Technocracy, and so should not be removed from the article. There may be a bit of WP:SYN involved in the writing of the paragraph, but this can be taken care of with some judicious rewriting. It's clear that the section should be there, perhaps rewritten a bit to make it clear where the viewpoints is coming from. I've thus reinstated it on a temporary basis, but suggest that the sources be reviewed and the paragraph tweaked to better reflect the sources and to state clearly where the viewpoint is coming from. LK ( talk) 02:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I noticed there was no information stated in the article on any recent technocratic organisations or activity. Whether or not there should be a dedicated section or some other form of integration in the article is open to debate, without this information however one gets the impression from the article that technocracy is a dead or stagnant movement. That however is far from the truth and the organisations in mind have broader contributions and activities than mentioned in the article.
My suggestion would be a section on recent developments and the activities that the organisations are involved with. In that way the section contributes to technocracy as a system where as a list of recent organisations could be irrelevant.
To aid discussion and referencing here are some useful sources, it would be good to have some U.S sources to if anyone can provide some?
1 - EU Technate group: http://www.technate.eu/index.php : A group of collaborating technocratic organisations.
2 - European Organisation for sustainability : http://www.eoslife.eu/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.207.229 ( talk) 12:33, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I came here looking for a list of examples of past technocratic governments but there isn't one. I know that there would be some controversial additions to such a list but there would be several examples at least. Would Italy's forthcoming government be such an example?-- ЗAНИA talk WB talk] 20:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Would it be possible to have a note in the lead explaining this difference to the uninitiated? It just seems odd that the article does not address the "common" usage of the term, and until it does people will come here saying "Italy is a technocracy" etc. for the next year or so. Something like "Although unrelated to the concept discussed in this article, the term "Technocratic" has been applied by news media to a government headed, for example, by an unelected economist such as the Italian governments of Lamberto Dini and Mario Monti, and the Greek government of Lucas Papademos. However such governments do not exhibit the features of a true technocracy." Would this be acceptable to both experts and non-experts? I agree that lists of such governments are not relevant to this article, but an explanation of why they aren't relevant is relevant to the article...if that makes any sense 129.234.189.85 ( talk) 15:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why economists (and indeed businessmen) were excluded from the definition of technocracy on this page? (See also this discussion on the Mario Monti talk page.) MistyMorn ( talk) 23:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Will someone kindly word/structure the lede in such a way as to incorporate the broader usage of the word "technocracy", including the OED definition? I don't know what criteria were used in the selection of
Berndt (1982) to cover the overall definition of the term in the present article. However, exclusive use of such a restrictive definition appears to contradict broader usage, as per the OED, and invalidates legitimate wikilinks from other articles.
MistyMorn (
talk)
09:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
The first sentence of this article itself seems to incorrectly define "Technocracy" as a whole. While certain sentences of description in this article seem rather lengthy, the initial sentence seems far too short; especially in regard to the importance that proper definition of differing forms of government might hold. It is of my opinion that the initial sentence of this article places too great a responsibility on technocracy to "be in control of all decision making." A technocratic society uses its knowledge of science and technology as a means to progress the legitimacy of ideas, not to claim power over ideas that have no recognizable adherence to fact. Please don't underestimate the importance of the first sentence in these articles, regardless of how accurate their underlying elements may seem. Rather, use the the legitimacy of those underlying ideas to more accurately develop the initial definitions of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daleyjem ( talk • contribs) 02:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Are there any states that would have been classified as technocratic entities? Perhaps certain Italian city-states that existed during the Italian Renaissance? Were not the majority of the rules patricians of the arts and sciences? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.239.7.5 ( talk) 15:51, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
A while back I emboldened the word "Technocrat", and someone reverted my edit. Seeing as Technocrat redirects here, I see no reason why the word should not be bold. Are there any objections? 14:06, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The democratic system survives faction by checks and balances. The system of Technocracy is Utopian, but in practice would soon fail. The "Head Technocrat in Charge," can, through nepotism, or cronyism, control access to training of well qualified individuals, while promoting unqualified individuals at will.
One check/balance, would be to guarantee access to training, by requiring an individual to make the class pay for itself, before moving on to any new course, or programming language, etc. This falls to the problem of aptitude. I had interest, but not aptitude for my first college major. Under a system deterring the laziness of the professional student by forcing that accountability, an individual unfortunate enough to take a course or major in which he was not apt, would see his career die outright, even without faction.
Hamiltek ( talk) 17:12, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Please reference:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/277o4q/correcting_reddits_chronic_misunderstanding_of/
This article is mishmash of ignorance of the original late 19th and early 20th century technocratic philosophers and treats the Technocracy movement of the 1930's and it's ideas as being the standard of technocratic thought.
Specifically, the idea that technocracy is authoritarian is absurd, as well as the idea that you can have a "technocracy" in addition to some other form of governance. While it's certainly possible to have a technocratic Democracy, or technocratic Socialist Republic, or whatever else, these are not technocracies in the original sociopolitical philosophical sense of the term. Technocracy is *explicitly* a post-capitalist socioeconomic structure, in the same vein as Communism being *explicitly* a stateless, classless society. That the layperson is far too unintelligent to make these distinctions, and thus give rise to colloquial stupidity such as saying the USSR was a communist state, is immaterial to the fact that Communism has never existed, the same that Technocracy has never existed, nor will ever exist until an egalitarian, post-capitalist, post-scarcity automation economy managed by technical experts comes to fruition.
This article is a pile of lay garbage written by contributors who have obviously never read the formative literature on the topic with any depth or breadth whatsoever.
Here is a proposed version of the article:
Technocracy is a proposed form of government in which technical experts, including scientists and engineers, participate in various fields of governmental decision-making. The term technocratic refers to 'a member of a technical elite', including non-elected professionals at a ministerial level. The word technocracy has also been used to indicate any kind of management or administration in any field, not limited to government.
The term technocracy was originally used to designate the application of the scientific method towards solving social problems, in strong contrast to traditional Western concepts of economic, political, or philosophical ideology. The concept has some basis in Marxism-Leninism, but is opposed to its economic theory; in such an approach, sustainability, rather than only growth in GDP, would be the primary objective of all social-industrial functions. Technical and leadership skills would be valued on the basis of meritocracy, rather than democratic means.
Currently, technocracy only exists only on an authoritarian model, although the term has been proposed historically during the 1920s to be used in democratic governance, ostensibly to remove the influence of special interest groups. Also, there have been examples where democratic governments have applied technocratic principles in practice. Dark Liberty ( talk) 06:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Wow Earl King Jr. Needs to be fired if he indeed works for wikipedia. If not what he is doing seems authoritarian to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.175.54.158 ( talk) 06:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
The citation to Britannica seems like a weak cite, as their page doesn't have any citations on it that I could see.(other than citing other pages of itself)
Daniel Bell was a well respected professor at Harvard. Here is a larger clip of how he described St. Simon's views in his book "The Coming Of Post-industrial Society", page 76-77:
Industrial Society, as St. Simon insisted, was the application of technical knowledge to social affairs in a methodical, systematic way. With industrial society, thus, has come the technicien - the French usage is more apt than the English "technician," for its sense in French is much wider - the trained expert in the applied sciences. It has implied, too, that those who possessed such knowledge would exercise authority - if not power - in the society.
St. Simon's vision of industrial society, a vision of pure technocracy, was a system of planning and rational order in which society would specify its needs and organize the factors of production to achieve them. Industrial society was characterized by two elements, knowledge and organization. Knowledge, he said, was objective. No one had "opinions" on chemistry or mathematics; one either had knowledge or not. The metaphors St. Simon used for organization were an orchestra, a ship and an army, in which each person fulfils a function in accordance with his competence. Although St. Simon clearly outlined the process wherby a nascent bourgeoisie had superseded the feudal nobility, and though he predicted the rise of a large working class, he did not believe that the working class would succeed the bourgeoisie in power. As he tried to show in his sketch of historical development, classes do not rule, for society is always governed by an educated elite. The natural leaders of the working class would therefore be the industrialists and the scientists. He forsaw the dangers of conflict, but did not regard it as inevitable. If an organic society were created, men would accept their place as a principle of justice. The division of labor meant that some men would guide and others would be guided. In a society organized by function and capacity, doctors and engineers and chemists would employ their skills according to objective needs, not in order to gain personal power. These men would be obeyed not because they are masters but because they have technical competence; to be obedient to one's doctor, after all, is a spontaneous but rational act. For this reason the St. Simonians, in a set of phrases that later were used by Engels, gave their new social hierarchy the slogan, "From each according to his capacity, to each according to his performance," and the industrial society, as they describe it, was no longer the "rule over men, but the administration of things."
The administration of things - the substitution of rational judgement for politics - is the hallmark of technocracy.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.189.153 ( talk) 13:39, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I think E-Democracy is some way sharing ideas from Technocracy from its rules for people that used technology (Internet as case) to voting in form of online polling, This way similar to how concept of Technological experts from real life. In way both ideas of two movements that have people can create laws, proposal, devlopment with technological interest and any fields. 2606:A000:85E7:4E00:A9F0:BC80:438A:8556 ( talk) 17:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
I've seen "technocrat" often (mis-?)used perjoratively to imply an autocrat or otherwise unelected official (i.e. imply that they are democratically unaccountable and therefore potentially illegitimate). I don't see such mention of this in the article, nor of any criticism of technocracy (even from those who assume it to be inherently unelected). Does anyone have reliable sources to describe this usage? — Sasuke Sarutobi ( talk) 19:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
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I believe critiques of technocracy are usually couched in the language of critiques of Post-politics. Some of that literature should be mentioned in this article. Sondra.kinsey ( talk) 20:59, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a government which is technocratic. However the idea of this being possible does deserve some serious attention, and this with a view to better understanding about of what our society comprises and how it works.
Many people avoid this matter of society because they imagine it is too complex and difficult or impossible to pin down and to properly understand. This is true if you look at it as having many individual and varied trends, but one can also examine our society as if it were a number of functions, of which many individuals share in common.
As shown in my recent paper “SSRN 2865571 Einstein’s Criterion Applied to Macroeconomics Models” the subject is not so hard to explain as first supposed. I show that when our trading and exchange activities are listed and broken down there are but 19 different kinds of money flows passing between the 6 kinds of functional entities or agents, in the structure of a country’s social system. These entities are: Landlords, Financial Institutions, Householders, Producers, Capitalists and the Government.
By the use of a theoretical, logical and scientific approach, we can then begin to better understand of what our society comprises and how it works. Such an approach is provided in my recent book: "Consequential Macroeconomics--Rationalizing About How Our Society works" which due to its technocratic nature should be added to the list of references, cited in this article. Macrocompassion ( talk) 09:22, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
I think of it as rule by "scientific" dictators. Problem is these dictators need to be appointed by someone, likely the ruler who came out victorious from a revolution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.175.54.158 ( talk) 06:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Could be compared to Gnomes in World of Warcraft, maybe?
2A02:C7D:16E3:5F00:DCCF:3CC7:56DC:9561 ( talk) 15:39, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
(I do not know how to add new drop down sections similar to "history", "precursors" or "characteristics", otherwise i would add it myself.)
The new section would include economic theory that would accompany a technocratic government.
For example, all products in an economy are produced by machines, these products require a certain amount of energy (watts) to produce. So the amount of energy needed to produce all the products in the system would be evenly divided among the population. So if a loaf of bread took 1000 watts of energy to grow the wheat, refine it, mix with spices that also took energy to grow, mix with water that took energy to pump, and bake in an oven that took energy to heat, then that loaf of bread will cost 1000 watts to buy. (Represented in some sort of electronic currency that also charges you watts to run)
I think that this would give the average reader a better idea of what a technocracy is or could be with the proper technology and organisation. (A post scarcity economy where all manual labor is optional, and people are free to innovate/create as they please without the burden of a 9-5 job.) Pierce592 ( talk) 23:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I understand this talk page is already crowded with Critiques critiques from at least 2005, however in my effort to try to clean this page up I'll make a more specific issue, the section appears to incorrectly assume technocracy means "rule of technology companies" rather than anything defined in this article, it makes constant mentions to social media and of all people and platforms, Mark Zuckerberg and Pinterest. I'll look into whether or not it is even a valid criticism of technocracy as "rule of technically experienced". 93.105.178.32 ( talk) 23:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)