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"Hey, what do you think of the tathagata page? I had originally made it a redirect to buddha, but then someone came along and put in a jargony definition about the buddha-mind and a bunch of quotes. Yet, I am hesitant to revert it unilaterally. I thought maybe you could put your eyes on it."
Added some more text so that it doesn't sound so much like a set of arbitrary quotes from Sutra. ( 20040302 10:46, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC))
The Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Tathagata as a term is not sufficently individual or meaningful to warrant it's own page - it rates a footnote as an epithet of the Buddha with it's own connotations. Splitting every little sub-topic off onto it's own page will not enhance the Wikipedia, it is better to have a few solid articles which cover the subject - and this subject is better covered elsewhere. Meanwhile user 20040302 there are a lot of places where your knowledge of Vajrayana would be very useful - Buddhist texts for instance, and even the Vajrayana article is still pretty stubby. mahābāla 13:43, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed that not a single other article has links to this article?! mahābāla 13:43, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Buddha is Tathagata, the two are the same, like an apple is a fruit. A Bodistattva cannot have attained Enlighenment else he would be Buddha / Tathagata. A Tathagata comes once every few thousand years, the last one being Shakyamuni / Siddartha Buddha and the next to be Maitreya Buddha. But the word should have its own page because the word Tathagata is the word Buddha uses to refer to himself and how he said others should refer to him. Buddha means the Enlightened One, but Tathagata means the one who has come, similar meaning to Messiah.
Paul I
Yes its a fair definition now, but one mistake is you say Buddha required faith. Faith means to believe in something blindly without proof, Buddha always taught to question everything and never believe without studying all the facts.
The Tathagata, pronounced: “Taaht-ahgatah”, in the common nonsensical definition by ignorant modern “Buddhism” is meant “thus come one”, or “thus gone one”. This view ignorantly implies a formal appellation of importance (such as Sir, Master, Great-One, etc.) rather than a denotation of a profound spiritual attainment.
The term Tathagata is composed of two parts, Tat, and agata. Tat has been since time immemorial in India, meant Brahman, the Absolute, as in the famous Upanishadic dictum: “That (Brahman) thou art” (tat tvam asi). “That” is here, of course Brahman, the Godhead, the Subject of Selfhood which the muni, or sage, has reached at the pinnacle of his having fulfilled wisdom’s perfection. Agata is the past tense denotation of gata (going, traveling, trekking), here being meant “arrival, gone-unto, attainment of, arrival-at”. As such, Tathagata in the ancient Prakrit Pali, is meant literally “(The sage who has) arrived at the Absolute”, or in Sramanic context of Vedanta and Buddhism, “(He-thou) is (arrived at) That”.
The very term Tathagata, which has of yet never been discovered by anyone until now, is none other than a personal appellation of that very rare someone who has realized by wisdom “tat tvam asi”. The Tathagata, therefore, is equally as well meant “The ‘tat tvam asi’ comprehensor/sage”.
It is unfathomable that modern so-called Buddhism’s position is that the spiritual appellation of the Buddha’s attainment, “attained/arrived at Brahman” (Tathagata) is merely an honorary designation for a popular sage. As [It 57] and other passages clearly show, “become-Brahman” is the meaning of the term Tathagata, or he who has arrived (agata), again being meant the transfiguration and assimilation of the mind (citta) in upon itself (bhava), and thereby achieving the Absolute, i.e. Brahman, as such (brahmabhutam tathagata) is said.
To say that Tathagata, is meant by nonsensical “Buddhism”, to the effect: that Tathagata denotes the “thus-come one”, or “thus-gone one” has no contextual validity, is utterly illogical to read Pali as such, and carries no meaning whatsoever, which is all the more so magnified given that the very term Tathagata carries, regardless of translation, a very weighty importance and denotation; thereby secular ‘Buddhism’ intends to castrate the meaning of the term Tathagata, is yet another resection of original Buddhism by modern sects to turn Buddhism into a moralistic movement devoid of metaphysics.
Scriptural collaboration of same: (Tathagatassa hetam, adhivacanam brahmabhuto itipi)-“The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'” [DN 3.84]. (brahmabhutam tathagata)-“Become-Brahman is the meaning of Tathagata” [It 57] - webmaster attan.com User Attasarana
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for putting links only. :Austerlitz -- 88.75.220.56 ( talk) 13:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Wingspeed, you are wrong with your judgement (rm matter of at best very tangential relevance to definition and, despite citations, WP:OR) . I am going to reinsert. This is a description of some of the socalled Tathagata's qualities and as such as important as your "definition".
In section 18 of Diamond Sutra it is stated that the Tathagata does have the human eye as well as the divine eye, the eye of insight, the eye of transcendent wisdom and the Buddha eye. [1], [2], [3].
Wingspeed ( talk) 05:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Why do you call it the edit on the subject of the "Buddha eye"? Besides there are mentioned another four eyes. And why do you want to explain "properly" the socalled "ineffable"?
Reliable source ? Shakyamuni said: "One who extracts the ‘thorns’ is a synonym for the Tathāgata." [1] The Buddha said about the term tathāgata-garbha: "Since the tathāgata-garbha is present in all beings, all males are Dharma brothers, all females are Dharma sisters. [2]
hello Mitsube! Why do you hold this source not reliable?
Do you hold the following source(s) to be reliable [14]? and why?
To me your argument does not make sense. Sorry, maybe we are from different planets.
If you can find the text discussed in a reliable source that would be good. Excerpting from a translation on a webpage is not encyclopedic. Mitsube ( talk) 20:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Seems as if on the Webspawner website no author is to be found.
[15] Stick to it.
Sutras
The Diamond Sutra of Wisdom, The Vajra-Cheddikka-prajna-paramita sutra is a text which holds numerous translations, each slightly different, therefore, one should not get hung up on translations, but do their best to keep to the original teaching, ie: sentiments. For example, The Buddha does not come or go, there is no coming and no going....Look at the texts and realize that these quotes mean nothing by themselves, but must be taken in greater context, "There is no reality, it is expediantly called reality..." To learn about this sutra, I suggest you download Sharon Janice's English translation, available through a well known music site. In regards to this being a wiki entry, as a being well known in Buddhist culture and history, the page is deserving and useful. As a place to debate sutras, no it is not the purpose of wiki. What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreytaos ( talk • contribs) 22:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Its Than+Thaan+Kada meaning "One who had crossed his ego". "Than" is "One's" , "ThAN" in Tamil is ego and "Kada" is to cross.
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"Hey, what do you think of the tathagata page? I had originally made it a redirect to buddha, but then someone came along and put in a jargony definition about the buddha-mind and a bunch of quotes. Yet, I am hesitant to revert it unilaterally. I thought maybe you could put your eyes on it."
Added some more text so that it doesn't sound so much like a set of arbitrary quotes from Sutra. ( 20040302 10:46, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC))
The Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Tathagata as a term is not sufficently individual or meaningful to warrant it's own page - it rates a footnote as an epithet of the Buddha with it's own connotations. Splitting every little sub-topic off onto it's own page will not enhance the Wikipedia, it is better to have a few solid articles which cover the subject - and this subject is better covered elsewhere. Meanwhile user 20040302 there are a lot of places where your knowledge of Vajrayana would be very useful - Buddhist texts for instance, and even the Vajrayana article is still pretty stubby. mahābāla 13:43, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed that not a single other article has links to this article?! mahābāla 13:43, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Buddha is Tathagata, the two are the same, like an apple is a fruit. A Bodistattva cannot have attained Enlighenment else he would be Buddha / Tathagata. A Tathagata comes once every few thousand years, the last one being Shakyamuni / Siddartha Buddha and the next to be Maitreya Buddha. But the word should have its own page because the word Tathagata is the word Buddha uses to refer to himself and how he said others should refer to him. Buddha means the Enlightened One, but Tathagata means the one who has come, similar meaning to Messiah.
Paul I
Yes its a fair definition now, but one mistake is you say Buddha required faith. Faith means to believe in something blindly without proof, Buddha always taught to question everything and never believe without studying all the facts.
The Tathagata, pronounced: “Taaht-ahgatah”, in the common nonsensical definition by ignorant modern “Buddhism” is meant “thus come one”, or “thus gone one”. This view ignorantly implies a formal appellation of importance (such as Sir, Master, Great-One, etc.) rather than a denotation of a profound spiritual attainment.
The term Tathagata is composed of two parts, Tat, and agata. Tat has been since time immemorial in India, meant Brahman, the Absolute, as in the famous Upanishadic dictum: “That (Brahman) thou art” (tat tvam asi). “That” is here, of course Brahman, the Godhead, the Subject of Selfhood which the muni, or sage, has reached at the pinnacle of his having fulfilled wisdom’s perfection. Agata is the past tense denotation of gata (going, traveling, trekking), here being meant “arrival, gone-unto, attainment of, arrival-at”. As such, Tathagata in the ancient Prakrit Pali, is meant literally “(The sage who has) arrived at the Absolute”, or in Sramanic context of Vedanta and Buddhism, “(He-thou) is (arrived at) That”.
The very term Tathagata, which has of yet never been discovered by anyone until now, is none other than a personal appellation of that very rare someone who has realized by wisdom “tat tvam asi”. The Tathagata, therefore, is equally as well meant “The ‘tat tvam asi’ comprehensor/sage”.
It is unfathomable that modern so-called Buddhism’s position is that the spiritual appellation of the Buddha’s attainment, “attained/arrived at Brahman” (Tathagata) is merely an honorary designation for a popular sage. As [It 57] and other passages clearly show, “become-Brahman” is the meaning of the term Tathagata, or he who has arrived (agata), again being meant the transfiguration and assimilation of the mind (citta) in upon itself (bhava), and thereby achieving the Absolute, i.e. Brahman, as such (brahmabhutam tathagata) is said.
To say that Tathagata, is meant by nonsensical “Buddhism”, to the effect: that Tathagata denotes the “thus-come one”, or “thus-gone one” has no contextual validity, is utterly illogical to read Pali as such, and carries no meaning whatsoever, which is all the more so magnified given that the very term Tathagata carries, regardless of translation, a very weighty importance and denotation; thereby secular ‘Buddhism’ intends to castrate the meaning of the term Tathagata, is yet another resection of original Buddhism by modern sects to turn Buddhism into a moralistic movement devoid of metaphysics.
Scriptural collaboration of same: (Tathagatassa hetam, adhivacanam brahmabhuto itipi)-“The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'” [DN 3.84]. (brahmabhutam tathagata)-“Become-Brahman is the meaning of Tathagata” [It 57] - webmaster attan.com User Attasarana
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for putting links only. :Austerlitz -- 88.75.220.56 ( talk) 13:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Wingspeed, you are wrong with your judgement (rm matter of at best very tangential relevance to definition and, despite citations, WP:OR) . I am going to reinsert. This is a description of some of the socalled Tathagata's qualities and as such as important as your "definition".
In section 18 of Diamond Sutra it is stated that the Tathagata does have the human eye as well as the divine eye, the eye of insight, the eye of transcendent wisdom and the Buddha eye. [1], [2], [3].
Wingspeed ( talk) 05:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Why do you call it the edit on the subject of the "Buddha eye"? Besides there are mentioned another four eyes. And why do you want to explain "properly" the socalled "ineffable"?
Reliable source ? Shakyamuni said: "One who extracts the ‘thorns’ is a synonym for the Tathāgata." [1] The Buddha said about the term tathāgata-garbha: "Since the tathāgata-garbha is present in all beings, all males are Dharma brothers, all females are Dharma sisters. [2]
hello Mitsube! Why do you hold this source not reliable?
Do you hold the following source(s) to be reliable [14]? and why?
To me your argument does not make sense. Sorry, maybe we are from different planets.
If you can find the text discussed in a reliable source that would be good. Excerpting from a translation on a webpage is not encyclopedic. Mitsube ( talk) 20:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Seems as if on the Webspawner website no author is to be found.
[15] Stick to it.
Sutras
The Diamond Sutra of Wisdom, The Vajra-Cheddikka-prajna-paramita sutra is a text which holds numerous translations, each slightly different, therefore, one should not get hung up on translations, but do their best to keep to the original teaching, ie: sentiments. For example, The Buddha does not come or go, there is no coming and no going....Look at the texts and realize that these quotes mean nothing by themselves, but must be taken in greater context, "There is no reality, it is expediantly called reality..." To learn about this sutra, I suggest you download Sharon Janice's English translation, available through a well known music site. In regards to this being a wiki entry, as a being well known in Buddhist culture and history, the page is deserving and useful. As a place to debate sutras, no it is not the purpose of wiki. What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreytaos ( talk • contribs) 22:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Its Than+Thaan+Kada meaning "One who had crossed his ego". "Than" is "One's" , "ThAN" in Tamil is ego and "Kada" is to cross.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:11, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)