This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
How do we know he died?
The picture covers the text, so that it is impossible to read the text without clicking on "Edit this page". Could someone who know how fix that? 131.183.81.100 23:20 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)
Didn't he act as an informal patron of Iraqi Christians?
yes, and there are citations for all the christian relalated "citation needed" parts in reference number 3. could someone please link those as the cites? I can't seem to figure out how to do it. On Thermonuclear War 03:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not believe that Tariq Aziz is a Christian. A true Christian stands for what The Bible teaches and the Bible teaches against murder, rape, torture, etc...the very things Saddam's regime participated in. He does not belong in the "Christian people" category since he was a major player in that evil regime. In my opinion and going by how the Bible teaches Christians to live, the facts and the fruits of his life show that Aziz is not a Christian. Christians are told not to hang out with sinful people (Ephesians 5:6-7). Saddam's regime is sinful and Aziz stayed with them. We are told "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29) Apparantly, Aziz was obeying Saddam instead of God or he would have stood up for his "Christian beliefs". Matthew 7:21 says that not everyone who claims to be a Christian will go to heaven, only those that follow God. Aziz did not follow God by being in that regime. I could go on and on, but I won't. I see absolutely no reason to put him in the "Christian people" category just because he says he is a Christian. True Christians are recognized by their fruits. His fruits are evil.-- Phatcat68 12:21 Jul 27, 2005 (US ET)
Tony Blair doesn't just claim to be a Christian, he is one. That he is perhaps not the best Christian is my point: He is still a Christian, but maybe not a good one. Bush similarly. There are countless Christians of whom many Christians such as yourself might not be proud, but they are Christians nonetheless. That Aziz identifies himself as a Christian makes him one. You are very probably right to believe he is not a good one. And, of course, I too would be embarassed by him were I a Christian. Paul Beardsell 12:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a Christian project (by which I mean to say nothing bad about Wikipedia). Articles cannot be judged purely from a Christian perspective. And certainly not only from one Christian's POV. What now? We seem to disagree. I have sought others' opinions here. Paul Beardsell 12:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Bush attempts to impose his values on America. Whether those values are Christian depends on your point of view. Bush is a staunch supporter of the death penalty, which in the opinion of some is diametrically opposed to Christian values. Some people feel that Christian values are about being humble, loving one's neighbor, and helping the poor, while Bush is arrogant and aggressive, and helps only the rich. Yet the fact that Bush's behavior doesn't fit in with their idea of Christian values does not give them the right to deny that he is a Christian. By the same token, the fact that Aziz's behavior doesn't fit in with your idea of Christian values does not give you the right to deny that he is one. -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 17:05, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
If behavior is what defines a Christian, and Aziz is not a Christian, then neither are about half the Popes. -- Carnildo 17:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
'Christian' refers also to an ethnic group here 82.70.155.252 13:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Tkexi991 16:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC) Tariq Aziz is a Christian - which is evidenced by his personal relationship with the Pope, his advocacy of the Chaldean Christian community, and his refusal to become a Muslim (it would be to his advantage to do so). I also despute the one-sidedness of the main article... there was no innocents in Dujail.
This is a peculiar argument, and it's difficult to see why anyone's taking it seriously. Of course Aziz is a Christian; that he's not a good person is irrelevant. Perhaps he's a bad Christian, but there's no contradiction between being a Christian and a bad person. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 18:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Please stop.
While I think Mel's remark unnecessary, I think so only because it's dragging out a sideshow and that the remarks you have just made are ultimately irrelevant to determining whether Aziz should be referenced as a Christian. Wikipedia is not here to advance any line of theological interpretation, dogma, or prescription, which is, I must insist, what you are doing here. If you care to cite a claim from a religious authority with specific reference to Aziz or contemporary Christianity in Iraq (quoting Scripture here is insufficient) to provide evidence that his religious identity was controversial and express this in an NPOV manner without betraying any sign of making an editorial point of your own, that's fine. As I have already stated, there are avenues of approach with which I could fully agree. What you have just said is, however sincere a matter of personal convinction, standing on the soapbox of your religious views. I am not disagreeing with those views; I am trying to emphasise to you that, as dogmatic theology, they are not a usable source of guidance here. I take your disinterest in the views of Iraqi Christians as an indication that your insistence on this point is inconsistent with the encyclopaedic imperative that both demands discussion and limits it to the interests of improving the article. In the context of sectarian politics in Iraq, there are reasons to refer to Aziz as a Christian despite his behaviour in office, just as there is reason to reference Hussein as a Sunni, despite his being regarded as an apostate in most Islamic quarters. Buffyg 01:51, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Mel, in replying to PhatCat68 I meant to acknowledge that your remark that "Perhaps he's a bad Christian, but there's no contradiction between being a Christian and a bad person" was likely to be received as a basis for objection (I'd reckon the the statement is over-generalised and accordingly requires some additional qualifiers) and therefore cause for further debate rather than the provision of criteria that would help build consensus. PhatCat68 has not yet accepted the idea that his reading of the Bible and selection of Scripture citations he regards as authoritative here remain matters of sectarian theological dogma and that using these alone to justify an edit is unacceptable, particularly where PhatCat68 demonstrates that he is uninterested in seeing even how Aziz's specific professed creed views him; we're not going to have any consensus here until this point is accepted. My view is that your remark invited further argument of personal dogma, which is a sideshow and quite different from arriving at a consensus on the edit in question. I did not mean to disparage the rest of your feedback on the RfC or the fact that you did reply. Buffyg 09:47, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
So, mate, why don't you denounce President Bush as a non-Christian? He often breaks the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Regards, Andrew.
Franco and Mussolini were christians...
Some people here think that behaving in a manner Jesus himself might ( WWJD) or in a manner consistsant with scripture is required to be a christian. If so, adherents.com and the CIA factbook are way off-base, and Christian needs a rewrite ASAP. With so many people defining this in so many ways, and with so many denominations taking extremist stances (I believe Jehovas witnesses think they are the only Christians currently existing, for example), all we can do is allow people to define themselves. If he calls himself christian, he is one, for encyclopedic purposes. If some authority or expert rejects his claim to christianity, that can be cited in the article. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 17:09, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
He changed his name to Tariq Aziz, which means "Venerable Path"
The translation of the name is laughable as any Arab will attest that Tariq is different from Tareeq (road or path)... Tariq means that which comes at night http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/viewSurah.asp?hSurahID=101
Also "Azeez" corresponds exactly to "dear" (and similarly is used, in the possessive form "Azeezy", as a salutation in letters.)
Tariq does not mean History either; History is Tareekh تاريخ
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
How do we know he died?
The picture covers the text, so that it is impossible to read the text without clicking on "Edit this page". Could someone who know how fix that? 131.183.81.100 23:20 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)
Didn't he act as an informal patron of Iraqi Christians?
yes, and there are citations for all the christian relalated "citation needed" parts in reference number 3. could someone please link those as the cites? I can't seem to figure out how to do it. On Thermonuclear War 03:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not believe that Tariq Aziz is a Christian. A true Christian stands for what The Bible teaches and the Bible teaches against murder, rape, torture, etc...the very things Saddam's regime participated in. He does not belong in the "Christian people" category since he was a major player in that evil regime. In my opinion and going by how the Bible teaches Christians to live, the facts and the fruits of his life show that Aziz is not a Christian. Christians are told not to hang out with sinful people (Ephesians 5:6-7). Saddam's regime is sinful and Aziz stayed with them. We are told "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29) Apparantly, Aziz was obeying Saddam instead of God or he would have stood up for his "Christian beliefs". Matthew 7:21 says that not everyone who claims to be a Christian will go to heaven, only those that follow God. Aziz did not follow God by being in that regime. I could go on and on, but I won't. I see absolutely no reason to put him in the "Christian people" category just because he says he is a Christian. True Christians are recognized by their fruits. His fruits are evil.-- Phatcat68 12:21 Jul 27, 2005 (US ET)
Tony Blair doesn't just claim to be a Christian, he is one. That he is perhaps not the best Christian is my point: He is still a Christian, but maybe not a good one. Bush similarly. There are countless Christians of whom many Christians such as yourself might not be proud, but they are Christians nonetheless. That Aziz identifies himself as a Christian makes him one. You are very probably right to believe he is not a good one. And, of course, I too would be embarassed by him were I a Christian. Paul Beardsell 12:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a Christian project (by which I mean to say nothing bad about Wikipedia). Articles cannot be judged purely from a Christian perspective. And certainly not only from one Christian's POV. What now? We seem to disagree. I have sought others' opinions here. Paul Beardsell 12:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Bush attempts to impose his values on America. Whether those values are Christian depends on your point of view. Bush is a staunch supporter of the death penalty, which in the opinion of some is diametrically opposed to Christian values. Some people feel that Christian values are about being humble, loving one's neighbor, and helping the poor, while Bush is arrogant and aggressive, and helps only the rich. Yet the fact that Bush's behavior doesn't fit in with their idea of Christian values does not give them the right to deny that he is a Christian. By the same token, the fact that Aziz's behavior doesn't fit in with your idea of Christian values does not give you the right to deny that he is one. -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 17:05, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
If behavior is what defines a Christian, and Aziz is not a Christian, then neither are about half the Popes. -- Carnildo 17:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
'Christian' refers also to an ethnic group here 82.70.155.252 13:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Tkexi991 16:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC) Tariq Aziz is a Christian - which is evidenced by his personal relationship with the Pope, his advocacy of the Chaldean Christian community, and his refusal to become a Muslim (it would be to his advantage to do so). I also despute the one-sidedness of the main article... there was no innocents in Dujail.
This is a peculiar argument, and it's difficult to see why anyone's taking it seriously. Of course Aziz is a Christian; that he's not a good person is irrelevant. Perhaps he's a bad Christian, but there's no contradiction between being a Christian and a bad person. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 18:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Please stop.
While I think Mel's remark unnecessary, I think so only because it's dragging out a sideshow and that the remarks you have just made are ultimately irrelevant to determining whether Aziz should be referenced as a Christian. Wikipedia is not here to advance any line of theological interpretation, dogma, or prescription, which is, I must insist, what you are doing here. If you care to cite a claim from a religious authority with specific reference to Aziz or contemporary Christianity in Iraq (quoting Scripture here is insufficient) to provide evidence that his religious identity was controversial and express this in an NPOV manner without betraying any sign of making an editorial point of your own, that's fine. As I have already stated, there are avenues of approach with which I could fully agree. What you have just said is, however sincere a matter of personal convinction, standing on the soapbox of your religious views. I am not disagreeing with those views; I am trying to emphasise to you that, as dogmatic theology, they are not a usable source of guidance here. I take your disinterest in the views of Iraqi Christians as an indication that your insistence on this point is inconsistent with the encyclopaedic imperative that both demands discussion and limits it to the interests of improving the article. In the context of sectarian politics in Iraq, there are reasons to refer to Aziz as a Christian despite his behaviour in office, just as there is reason to reference Hussein as a Sunni, despite his being regarded as an apostate in most Islamic quarters. Buffyg 01:51, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Mel, in replying to PhatCat68 I meant to acknowledge that your remark that "Perhaps he's a bad Christian, but there's no contradiction between being a Christian and a bad person" was likely to be received as a basis for objection (I'd reckon the the statement is over-generalised and accordingly requires some additional qualifiers) and therefore cause for further debate rather than the provision of criteria that would help build consensus. PhatCat68 has not yet accepted the idea that his reading of the Bible and selection of Scripture citations he regards as authoritative here remain matters of sectarian theological dogma and that using these alone to justify an edit is unacceptable, particularly where PhatCat68 demonstrates that he is uninterested in seeing even how Aziz's specific professed creed views him; we're not going to have any consensus here until this point is accepted. My view is that your remark invited further argument of personal dogma, which is a sideshow and quite different from arriving at a consensus on the edit in question. I did not mean to disparage the rest of your feedback on the RfC or the fact that you did reply. Buffyg 09:47, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
So, mate, why don't you denounce President Bush as a non-Christian? He often breaks the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Regards, Andrew.
Franco and Mussolini were christians...
Some people here think that behaving in a manner Jesus himself might ( WWJD) or in a manner consistsant with scripture is required to be a christian. If so, adherents.com and the CIA factbook are way off-base, and Christian needs a rewrite ASAP. With so many people defining this in so many ways, and with so many denominations taking extremist stances (I believe Jehovas witnesses think they are the only Christians currently existing, for example), all we can do is allow people to define themselves. If he calls himself christian, he is one, for encyclopedic purposes. If some authority or expert rejects his claim to christianity, that can be cited in the article. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 17:09, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
He changed his name to Tariq Aziz, which means "Venerable Path"
The translation of the name is laughable as any Arab will attest that Tariq is different from Tareeq (road or path)... Tariq means that which comes at night http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/viewSurah.asp?hSurahID=101
Also "Azeez" corresponds exactly to "dear" (and similarly is used, in the possessive form "Azeezy", as a salutation in letters.)
Tariq does not mean History either; History is Tareekh تاريخ