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Some references in this article draw controversy. There are misleading data in publications concerning the word Tantra. The Buddhsit and religious aspects of Tantra is clearly different from references from David Gordon White or H Urban for instance which are scattered in different part of this article. There are number of web sites that outline the controversial aspects. There seems to be some distinction to be made here in between the original Tantra and the so called 'Neo-Tantra' or 'California-Tantra'. It would be desirable to separate the traditional religious aspect and the neo calfifornia sex derivative. -- Rédacteur Tibet 14:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I think we should develop a new article structure and then move the existing material into it, finding citations as we do so. I've begun a new outline at Tantra/temp. My starting point is the structure of two books: the first part is the structure of The Roots of Tantra edited by Harper and Brown, and the Tantra in practice section is from the book of the same name edited by David Gordon White.
Now, it's probably a copyvio to use the section headings from these books verbatim, and many are not optimal heading titles, but I think its a good starting point and we can discuss changing the wording of some and removing others. Tantra is a broad subject, and I think it is important that we know what topics we are going to include and have a good general structure for the article to facilitate getting the article in better shape.
Any thoughts? — Hanuman Das 13:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
agreed. neotantra turns up everywhere: probably beacuse of people enthusiastic to take a stand against it!
-- Supernaut76 21:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Gauravjwal 21:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC), a few thoughts: i like the structure that the article's beginning to take but i think the essence of the article is still a little too esoteric. the purpose should be to demystify tantra as much as possible..for instance..i added the following mid july:
A common misconception in tantra is that it encourages free sex as a path to divine bliss. Pleasure is not a driving force in "tantrik sex". Sex is a tool to realise the divinity that lies within. An orgasm, though a result of sexual communion with a partner, does not "come" from the partner but arises within the self. The source of the pleasure lies within. A Tantrik explores that source and tries to understand and even control it. For a Tantrik the purpose of sex is not the orgasm per se, but the moment of thoughtlessness that one experiences at the peak of an orgasm. At that point the mind is truly thoughtless, and to achieve and understand that state is the goal of any yogi, tantrik or otherwise.
i think the above text clarifies the purpose and the role of sex in tantra, albeit only to an extent.i think our aim should be clarity and in this regard Tantra and sex - traditional and neotantric views is a little vague.
lets discuss the following structure: 1.tantra: what is 2.convey the essense of tantra: "accept all reject none"(agree/disagree?) 3.Concepts and practises associated with Tantra: right hand/left hand etc; other practises. 4.tantra and sex...remove misconceptions etc. Also kundalini can be included here. 5.history/vedic origins. 6.modern tantra. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gauravjwal ( talk • contribs)
Please consider the capitalist implications of respecting copyright. I would rather you ask "Is it creative" than "Am I going to break the law". Mark
i appreciate the points you made. i'll mention citations henceforth-- Gauravjwal 07:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
About the "accept all, reject none" tenet. All literature i've studied mentions that tantra epouses one to accept all reality as aspects/manifestations of the "Divine Mother". Including those which are otherwise "shunned" like meat, parched grain, alcohol... One citable source i can quote from in this regard is the book Divine Light by SK Das; "The Tantra Sadhaka, by this method of worship, is made at the outset to feel and then by higher process of self-culture, to realise All-Blissful-Mother, in the universe.Nothing is condemnable". "Nothing is condemnable" is the phrase to note-- Gauravjwal 07:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Gauravjwal I altered this paragraph considerably, although I accept the validity of your point. The original seemed a little defensive to me and not adequately contextualised. I also thought that the essence of the act should not have been stated as being the " thoughtlessness that arises " although I agree this an important aspect. I think with something as protean as tantra one must be careful in making statements about essence - can be acceptable if contextualised though. I guess there are too many exceptions that break the rule in Tantra.
-- Supernaut76 12:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC
To educate or write authentically on this subject one need's a lot of experience in it's absence just "cut and paste" will not do much representation.
The subject will be distorted enough and any effort to "cut and paste" will only add to the confusion , safest path is to use open or out of copyright books and leave the subject at the introductory stage ao no book is better than John Woodroff's.§≈
I removed this section. The section read like an essay. With no sources given it seems to much like original research. If anyone can show how it is not original research, for example, showing sources for a phrase like "Too many westerners...." then I think they should rewrite it. TheRingess 22:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Ringness - why don't you edify us by contributing to the Tantra/temp article or suggesting corrections. i think these large scale deletions are highly inappropriate, especially if not replaced by more suitable referenced material. Supernaut76 19:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't think this is original research - read the references provided. I think that your approach is overstudious in critique without actually providing any alternatives. The perspectives cited are well known even in scholarly approaches. In time someone may find an academic article that does a statistical survey of knowledge/attitudes in 'the west' re: Hindu Tantra - until then I think a commonsense approach is advisable as long as it is broadly consistent with views of scholars/practioners. In the balance I think that deleting this section is the worse of the two evils, one reason being that people searching for information on the subject will either come across a website pedalling sloppy pseudo-tantric techniques "that will change your sex life forever!" or a personal diatribe against the sexual aspects of Tantra. I don't think its your job to decimate wikipedia either! Supernaut76 11:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
To many westerners Tantra is perceived as being an artful technique for enhancing sexual pleasure.
Sorry, did not intend to hurt your feelings; but just to remind you that at the last count over 99% of wikipedia was poorly referenced. Not ideal by any means, but certainly not a call to arms for the eradication of improperly referenced articles. I think the concept of a westerner is well recognised - see wikipedia article The West. Don't think the word 'many'constitutes a serious violation of wikipedias 'pillars' anymore than a word like 'popular conception'. Editorial views of relevance can be subjective too. Lets agree to keep it for now, while I find a suitable reference/sentence structure for the same.Peace. Supernaut76 12:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it really a good idea to link this article from the main page????
Considerations on tantric spirituality by Thubten Tendzin
I have just read this article and am thoroughly insulted. I hope you dont mind if I make some sweeping edits. Saiva suj 19:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
You are not talking about the article written by Thubten Yeshe, are you? Austerlitz 88.72.11.82 10:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
No, I did not read that. I mean this wikipedia article. Saiva suj 15:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It has been Thubten Tendzin, but it doesn't matter. Better late than never! Austerlitz 88.72.0.88 16:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Satisfactory resolution. Thanks Hanuman Das - had forgotten where I had put the cited version I had written. As you can see Ringess, most of the original paragraph is retained. You need to come off your perch every so often.
I'm not trying to suppress your edits. I just think they should be somewhere other than in the intro. It's too much detail for the intro. HeBhagawan
Namaskar. I understand that this is the English Wikipedia, and thus, contributers speak English. However, I would like to point out that many English sources on Tantra are flawed, and this is causing some very disturbing material to appear on this article. Tantra is not sex, and has nothing to do with sex. It has nothing to do with breaking taboos. This is the wrong idea. I and my family are of the Tantrika Parampara and this is very insulting to me, and a disgrace to our heritage. I feel handicapped in repairing any sections of this article with all the filth that is continuously dumped into it. Please, cite scriptures, and bhasyas of scriptures as sources, do not use Western scholarly sources. Namaḥṣivaya, ॐ Śaiva Sujīţ ॐ 15:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If you are interested in contributing in such a fashion,
http://www.muktabodhalib.org/SECURE/digital_library_index.htm is a wonderful resource.
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīţ
सुजीत ॐ
16:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Saiva, The problem is not so much that they cite Western sources. The problem is that the article is a mess. It is jumbled and incoherent--in addition to over-emphasizing a particular kind of Tantra. We need to do with Tantra what we have done with Hinduism: Have the early parts of the article describe the things that all followers of Tantra have in common: Worship of God as Mother, reverence for the Tantrik scriptues, the goal of spiritual experience, the history of Tantra, major places of pilgrimage, etc. Then after the article has described all the things that all agree on, it should have separate sections for the divergent sects and practices. In its current state, this article just focuses mostly on one concept of Tantra, and it's definately not one that most or all Tantriks would agree on. HeBhagawan 02:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, using scriptures as a source is not necessarily primary research. It depends on how you use them. HeBhagawan 02:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the addition of this material.
It is material copied directly from this link: http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Newhomepage/Resource/essays/4traditionsofsrividya.html so it is a possible copyright violation.
Also, it listed no sources and seemed to be a personal essay.
TheRingess 21:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
About the External link on the Tantra in the modern world section: This is a link to a commercial website (many links to amazon products), with content that doesn't seem of primary importance for the subject. This link falls in the number 3 point of the "Links normally to be avoided" according to the Wikipedia external links page. I suggest that we remove this link and citation. I tried to remove the link but someone immediately put it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philippemv ( talk • contribs)
This citation is not of primary interest and I suspect that it has been inserted by someone who wants the viewers to visit the website it is linking to, maybe you, 999? If we start with these kinds of practices on this article, a lot of people will want to promote their website in the same way. If you agree with this, express your voice here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philippemv ( talk • contribs)
I agree to removing the link. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 18:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for this correction 999. I am myself very concerned about bringing the best information possible about traditional Tantra. Nevertheless, I keep thinking That there is several other websites about traditional tantra that are incomparatively more valuable and interesting than this one, here is 2 of them as examples: the website of David Frawley: vedanet.com or the website of George Feuerstein: www.traditionalyogastudies.com/articles_tantra-kundalini_neo.html Hopefully other voices will come here to comment on this.
I am reminding you all to stray from speculative unfounded misinterpretations misconstrued as sources, and rely on more solid foundations. If any of you have respect, knowledge, or affiliation with Tantrika Parampara, you will know or learn what I mean. As I mentioned above, a fantastic source to use is
http://www.muktabodhalib.org/SECURE/digital_library_index.htm .
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
19:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
You have to be joking. It's a library. It is the most informative resource out of any of the garbage that any of you have posted. It is entirely nonsensical to remove that link. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 17:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I believe I am the site owner for the external link being discussed here. I did not add the link, however I do want to add a few words to this discussion. I am initiated into a Tantrik Parampara. I have studied and practiced in my tradition for twenty years, and I have permission to teach. Additionally, I have published a book about Tantra and other subjects with the University of Minnesota Press. I am grateful that any link to my site has cropped up on Wikipedia so that sincere students can more easily find authentic information about this living tradition. So, I thank you for leaving the link in. In matriseva, Shambhavi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.44.92 ( talk • contribs)
Hari OM. Pandits now and again questioned Sri Ma Anandamayi about some activity or idea that was "not in the shastras." Her answer? If you are looking at a map, you see only the major points of interest, not every detail between these points. Only intensive sadhana will reveal the entire landscape. Also through sadhana, one discovers that everything is both personal and impersonal. If the shastras were not revealed through the same wisdom of Reality as one encounters through "personal" sadhana, what use would they be? Tantra is only another name for Reality. Anyone can discover it through sincere application, Guru, and grace. This nondiscrimination is a fundament of Tantrik View, and of Reality itself. OM Shanti, Shambhavi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.44.92 ( talk • contribs)
Hari OM. I would prefer sincere seekers to have ready access to authentic View confirmed by practice from any source without dogmatism and to thoughtful scholarship. There is no opposition. By your "kosher" test as stated above, even the secondary treatises by your own Guru, Swami Lakshman Joo, would not be acceptable. OM Shanti, Shambhavi—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.44.92 ( talk • contribs)
Hari OM. It gives me great delight to know that "koshur" signifies "kashmiri." Please be so kind as to write to me privately and let me know your understanding of the origin of this seeming confluence. shambhavi108[AT]earthlink.net OM Shanti, Shambhavi—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.44.92 ( talk • contribs)
The following sections are erroneous, and uncited. I will either remove them or completely change them (with [new] citations) "Tantric Chakras" "Hindu Tantra" "Tantra and the Vedas" "Kundalini in Hindu Tantra". And, as far as about every other piece of garbage in this article... the only presence it deserves is perhaps a very lucky mention in "See Also".
Please have (or at least show) some respect.
ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 19:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Having read this article, seen the dispute tag and had a quick look at this discussion page, I thought I'd raise an issue. Slightly embarrassed, I was thinking about Sting and his famous 8-hour orgasms urban myth so I thought I'd check out what wikipedia had to say. The last paragraph of 'sexual rites' is, to me, total gibberish. What is 'infinite awareness'? Why mention this concept when it's so transparently impossible? "The sushumna nadi is awakened and kundalini rises up, resulting in an awesome cosmic awareness in which all residual individuality is completely disintegrated in the stream of samadhi consciousness." What's an 'awesome cosmic awareness'? What's a cosmic awareness, full stop? I'm aware of the cosmos, and that it's awesome, I don't need tantra for that. And how can individuality 'disintegrate'? And apparently 'each participant expriences a fusion of their own Shiva and Shakti energies'. That means the sum total of absolutely nothing to me at all.
To be brutal, if someone was standing in front of me reading this paragraph, I'd think they were parodying tantra, not explaining it. All I'm saying is that writers have got to bear in mind the casual, the uninformed, and the sceptical when writing these articles. Sorry to be harsh. Trent 900 00:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
"I'd think they were parodying tantra, not explaining it." Exactly!
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
01:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
So now one has not only to make experential gnosis consistent with western scientific empiricism of what is physically possible, but also supplicate to sniggering cynicism? The concepts of infinite awareness, cosmic awareness and ego disintegration have been thoroughly commented upon in spiritual, psychological and philosophical literature - both east and west, directly and in allegory. I'm not claiming that Satyananda's writing is the most articulate; but I think your criticism is uninformed and superficial. Would have absolutely no problem with someone rewriting this citing better sources, though. Supernaut76 12:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The subject is Tantra and not Vedanta. The author is stretching and, in fact, misrepresenting Shiva in Tantra with charecterestics of Brahman in Vedanta. The author connects Shiva with Chit and then, connects Chit to Sat-chit-annanda, the charecterestics of Brahman ( according to Adi Shankara and the Vedantins), a purely Vedantic concept. On the other hand, Tantra is a branch of Yoga, which has philosophical foundations in Sankhya, a totally different and competing philosophy to Vedanta. These are two seperateand distinct Darshanas in Indian philosophical tradition. Any text on Indian philosophy, such as the great treatises, such as Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy by Radhakrishnan and Moore, (pages 349-574) or Essentials of Indian Philosophy by Hiriyanna (pages 106-180) can vouch for this argument. Shiva and Shakti are Tantric concepts. It is indeed remarkable how the Vedic proponents are stretching to bring in Tantra under the umbrella of Vedanta! India can be proud of its heritage, an inheritance of all the six Darshanas, and it is not necessary to pull in all systems under one, distorting the meaning and symbolism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumkurjayadev ( talk • contribs)
As a casual visitor to this page, I think the critical step was noted above: decide what the article is about. That may require changing the name or splitting into different articles. Is Tantra different than Hindu Tantra? Keep in mind what top hits in an english search of google for Tantra lead to. Is there a specific name for an article (perhaps "Hindu Tantra" or something - I don't know) on a particular coherent religious approach that would easily avoid all the "neotantric" sexual stuff that is objectionable to adherents of that approach? Or is there really a deep seated struggle over what the unmodified word "Tantra" should mean in english, in which that word all by itself is claimed by followers of "Tantra"? In the latter case I would guess it would be an uphill battle, but there are of course many of those. Again, I'm just wondering how the different people interested in this article view the issues, and suggesting ways to make that clear in the encyclopedia. But given the common english usage, somewhere in wikipedia there will have to be a description of the sort of sexual "tantra" that so much of the web talks about, whatever our opinions of it. And remember that different people come at this from different backgrounds. My major association with the word Tantra is as part of "Tantra Dr, Boulder Colorado, USA". I used to walk on it and wait for my carpool at the intersection of Tantra and Table Mesa every day. But let's not get started on the foolishness of the name Table Mesa, or spurious associations between flat surfaces and tantra.... -- NealMcB 02:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Namaskar. Thank you for your very pragmatic and insightful comment. This is definitely a high-priority issue. It seems that the circle of editors though have firm opinions / knowledge, they are not very active, so it makes discussions long. Sometimes important questions such as this are ignored, for easier but less pertinent topics.
As per the OED, the definition of Tantra:
[Skr. tantra loom, warp, hence groundwork, principle, system, doctrine, f. tan to stretch, extend.]
One of a class of Hindu religious works in Sanskrit, of comparatively recent date, chiefly of magical and mystical nature; also, of a class of Buddhist works of similar character.
Even though we did put that notification that this article is about Hindu Tantra, which can appropriately be called Tantrika Parampara or Tantrika Tradition, we have a lot of that "neo-tantra" stuff, which has no relation to Tantrika Parampara. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 03:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Tantra is an appropriate title - if only to funnel the flood of google and wikipedia search queries, which may otherwise be routed to 'dr. loves sex tantra extravaganza' site. Reference can be made to the more appropriate name in the introductory paragraph. Also the article aims to give the reader an overview of Tantra, in addition to specifically delving into Hindu Tantra - the title 'Tantra' facilitates this. There is a balance that needs to be struck between scholarship and traditional practise. Although it is true that no authentic practioner would say ' i am doing a transgressive act' - the philosophical underpinnings and analysis of such acts need a mention; if they are from a pov of western scholarship, then so be it. Both pov's can co-exist side by side. It is only a matter of harmonizing them to a degree. One cannot dismissively brand all western scholarship 'neotantra'. I agree that extensive work and rewriting needs to be carried out, but this can include anthropological and historical analysis too. Another solution may be to have two separate articles - one titled Tantra taking a more scholarly inclusive approach and another called Tantrika Parampara that focusses more exclusively on Hindu Tantra from within the tradition, which is more scriptural. Dont know how feasible this would be as naturally there would be some overlap Supernaut76 20:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
My proposal is to make Tantra a disambiguation for Tantrika Parampara, Vajrayana, and Neo-Tantra. Neo-Tantra has no relation to Tantrika Parampara. I have no knowledge or experience with Vajrayana, but it seems to already have been seperated. I find it amazing that people take for granted that an article on Tantra is going to include discussions on sexual intercourse ... or "transgressive acts". Almost any Hindu temple that you go to today, will carry out rituals as per tantrika shastras, and I guarantee you, it will not include any of the things people discuss here. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 20:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not see why foreign language sources cannot be used. Still Saiva Suj, I feel you are narrowing the scope of the subject by eliminating elements that do not sit easily within your tradition, which although honourable is not representative of all considered aspects of the subject as they have evolved over time. A disambiguation page signifies to me a position of splitting and vagueness which is unnecessary. I think that you should make your position clear by citing appropriate references in the main article under Tantra. Tantra after all is a controversial and divisive subject - There is no reason why this conflict should not be mirrored in the main body of the article in some way as long as it is done in a scholarly manner Supernaut76 23:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The sexual rites section begins with the phrase "It has been postulated...."
Can someone rewrite this sentence to specify who did the postulating, where they postulated it, and when?
TheRingess 21:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I still contend that someone who is familiar with the source needs to rewrite the opening sentence to specify who is doing the postulating. It shouldn't be too hard. Either White himself was the postulator or he was merely repeating someone else's theories. Either way, an editor familiar with the source should have an easy time rewriting the sentence. TheRingess 23:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This section contains the following phrase: The guidance of a Guru in this process is considered imperative.
Can an interested editor rewrite this sentence to show who considers this guidance to be imperative?
TheRingess 22:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section. Without a reference, there is no way for a casual reader to know whether or not this "metaphor" is at all relevant to the tantra.
Can anyone provide a source for this section?
TheRingess 22:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section about Sting since no one provided a source where Sting actually states that he practices tantra.
Technically I'm not sure about the Dalai Lama or the others but I'll leave the decision as to whether or not they should be included in the list up to others. BTW, Sting's article in Wikipedia makes no mention of tantra.
TheRingess 22:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I once again went ahead and rewrote a sentence in this section. A sentence that contains a phrase like...."...criticized by most Western scholars..." definitely needs a source. Also, the sentence really led nowhere since only 2 scholars were then quoted. I rewrote it to simply show what George Feurstein had to say. I think someone should expand the section to include more sourced criticism. TheRingess 04:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the problem with a statement such as "Neotantra has been severely criticised by most Western scholars" is that unless it has a source, it represents original material. Since no source is given, the only way an average reader could be expected to verify it's truth, would be to read all of the different scholars and count who's critical vs. who's not. We cannot expect a reader to reasonably do so. So without a source, the reader has to take Wikipedia's word for it; which is a no-no. If we replace that sentence and add specific cited criticisms; it makes a much better article.
Also if Neotantra has been called something else by a significant number of scholars or practicioners, a reader needs to know when and where they did so, not just that they did.
I think by removing and replacing statements like the above we are taking a step closer to make this a neutral article.
TheRingess 14:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this article needs to be inclusive. I think that a section on Vajrayana should be included, there may be Bon Tantras as well. So Neo-tantra may need coverage here too. There may be another category too, depending on whether there are any other strains of tantra, Japanese Eosteric Buddhism, others?
whatever....
if there are Bon Tantras
and so forth
blah, blah
— 24.27.14.2 03:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I too believe that a more inclusive approach is advisable with brief mentions of other forms of tantra and links to their main articles. Neo-tantra may either merit brief mention or be consigned to the see also section. Supernaut76 17:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
does it make sense to include a few sentences about Tantra massage it is described on sources like: http://www.tantramassage.de/
I deleted this paragraph, to me, it read like an essay. I think if it's going to stay in, someone needs to really rewrite it. Unfortunately I'm not the one to do that. Basically, there were a lot of claims that seemed to me impossible to verify by an average reader. Just a thought. TheRingess 04:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Even though there was a reference specified, it wasn't clear to me whether or not the material was a direct quote, or a summation of material from the source. I think that an editor could improve the paragraph greatly by making it clearer in that regard. TheRingess 14:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that your edits reflect a certain attitude towards the material that is not neither helpful nor unbiased. If you object for stylistic reasons then this is understandable. More likely though I think it reads like an essay to you because you have no access to standard sources to verify what you may consider to be a 'tall story'. I doubt if an average reader would be able to verify most wiki articles on religion if they just wanted to troll through google for reputable sources. What exactly is unclear to you? Supernaut76 02:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok peace - I think that you have contributed a great deal to this article as well. Its just that I have an issue with replacing all passive voice statements. The authors make general statements regarding how a particular tradition views certain practices. Stating that these are views held by 'the guru' or the 'participants' is incorrectly attributing these views to specific persons. Supernaut76 14:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this article no longer needs a POV tag. If you have serious concerns regarding pov issues please express them here. I also suggest that we can remove the cleanup tag. I think we might wish to place a maintenance template at the top of this talk page and archive most of the material. TheRingess 16:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see a history section in this article. but am not the right person to edit it.
Though I think it could include publication dates for major texts, birth dates for major tantric philosophers, discussion and dates of major contributions and/or schisms. Etc.
TheRingess 03:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The overview section mentions the following,
The guru's role is mentioned only in the sexual rites section and briefly in the neotantra section.
I think that the overview could be expanded to include more information about the guru's role.
If there is enough material, then maybe an interested editor could create an entirely new section about the guru and their role. If different tantric traditions view the guru differently then the editor should also include those different viewpoints.
I'm probably not the one to write it.
Just a suggestion.
TheRingess 16:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Blessed Selves
I had to edit this section. The definition of "maya" given was not a Tantrik point of view.
Thanks,
shambhavi
20:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: ok. someone just reverted the edit back to the previous version. I have done my bit. I'm not a Wikpedian. The previous version was completely erroneous. So I leave it up to you all to sort it out.
OM Shanti, Shambhavi
Does anyone know why this article is marked under Yoga? I think it should not be as Tantra has nearly nothing to do with Yoga darshana. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 09:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I came across the article Tantric Sexuality while on bad-article-cleanup. It appears to offer slightly different viewpoints to this article's "sexual practices" section - and a LONG references list.
I'm unsure on whether to recommend a merge to this article, a split of the "sexual practices" section into that article, or a "see also" link - but feel that it would be unencyclopedic not to harmonize the two articles somehow. Help from experts needed... -- Alvestrand 06:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
What is the historic orgins of Tantra. I dont know if this is a historic revisionist viewpoint but from one source I heard that Tantra was invented by the Tibetans and later the Indians adopted it. Go figure.
regards Bob (Mar 7, 2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.128.230 ( talk) 23:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC).
I notice that there the Tantra article is the current "Hinduism-related Collaboration of the week" and so I will chime in.
I have not actively worked on this article but I would like to make some general comment about how I think it currently reads. In a nutshell, I think the article could be improved by making a more clear differentiation between the concepts of Tantra, Vamachara, and Shaktism.
The term "Tantras" covers a huge range of scriptures that includes things such as guidelines on consecration of publlic water tanks, laws of inheritance of property, and guidelines for punishment of treason. N.N. Bhattacharya notes the broad sociological issue in this passage:
"{Tantrism] was more than a mere religious system or stream or undercurrent. Its intimate association with the practical aspects of life is proved by the emphasis it attached to the arts of agriculture, metallurgy, manual and technical labour, chemical sciences, physiology, embryology and medicine. The sociological viewpoints expressed in the Tantras were in virtual opposition to those upheld by the Smārta-Puranic tradition." <ref>N.N. Bhattacharya, ''History of the Tantric Religion'' (Delhi: Manohar, 1999), p. 12.</ref>
There is a popular tendency to identify Tantra exclusively with Vamachara, "the left-handed path". However in most of the philosophical and legal Tantras there is no place for Vamachara at all. The Western tendency to interpret Tantra in a highly sexualized way tends to overlook the existence of the practical Tantras as a category and to misrepresent the highly abstract philosophical nature of the philosophical Tantras. I must admit that in saying this I show a personal bias, which is that I think that Western interpretations of tantra are sometimes culturally-insensitive to Hindu traditions, over-emphasizing sexual aspects. The same hyper-sexualization of religious sources is seen in the Western reflex to translate the term " lingam" as meaning only "penis" without being aware of more general meanings such as "sign" or "mark" or "characteristic".
There is a similar confusion regarding the relation between the Shakta tradition and the Tantra tradition. Douglas Renfrew Books summarizes this point by saying that:
"Goudriaan makes clear that not all Śāktas are Tantrics and that Tantrism, unlike Śāktism, is not restricted to any one Hindu denomination, or even to any single Indian religious tradition."<ref>Douglas Renfrew Brooks, ''The Secret of the Three Cities: An Introduction to Hindu Shakta Tantrism'' (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1990), p. 48. ISBN 0-226-07570-2.</ref>
Thus a worshipper of the Goddess is a Shakta but that does not automatically make him or her a Tantric, and vice versa. For example, within denominations such as the Ganapatya there are forms of worship that are classified as Tantric that are not primarily centered on the Goddess, and which have nothing to do with Vamachara. See, for example, Gudrun Bühnemann's book The Worship of Mahāgaṇapati According To The Nityotsava (Institut für Indologie: 1988) ISBN 81-86218-12-2.
I present these opinions here on the talk page to test if there is any agreement by other editors regarding these ideas.
Buddhipriya 21:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
how can the development of Tantra Massage be connected to this article ? See the following sources:
-- 87.79.243.246 14:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Arthur Avalon (1918) [1] affirms that the Five Nectars of Tantra, Hindu and Buddhist traditions are directly related to the Mahābhūta or Five Elements and that the Panchamakara is actually a vulgar term for the Panchatattva and affirms that this is cognate with Ganapuja:
Worship with the Pañcatattva generally takes place in a Cakra or circle composed of men and women, Sadhakas and Sadhikas, Bhairavas and Bhairavis sitting in a circle, the Shakti being on the Sadhaka's left. Hence it is called Cakrapuja. A Lord of the Cakra (Cakreshvara) presides sitting with his Shakti in the center. During the Cakra, there is no distinction of caste, but Pashus of any caste are excluded. There are various kinds of Cakra -- productive, it is said, of differing fruits for the participator therein. As amongst Tantrik Sadhakas we come across the high, the low, and mere pretenders, so the Cakras vary in their characteristics from say the Tattva-cakra for the Brahma-kaulas, and the Bhairavi-cakra (as described in Mahanirvana, VII. 153) in which, in lieu of wine, the householder fakes milk, sugar and honey (Madhura-traya), and in lieu of sexual union does meditation upon the Lotus Feet of the Divine Mother with Mantra, to Cakras the ritual of which will not be approved such as Cudacakra, Anandabhuvana-yoga and others referred to later.
"Cakrapuja" is cognate with Ganachakra or Ganachakrapuja.
B9 hummingbird hovering ( talk • contribs) 11:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
B9 hummingbird hovering ( talk • contribs) 02:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Some references in this article draw controversy. There are misleading data in publications concerning the word Tantra. The Buddhsit and religious aspects of Tantra is clearly different from references from David Gordon White or H Urban for instance which are scattered in different part of this article. There are number of web sites that outline the controversial aspects. There seems to be some distinction to be made here in between the original Tantra and the so called 'Neo-Tantra' or 'California-Tantra'. It would be desirable to separate the traditional religious aspect and the neo calfifornia sex derivative. -- Rédacteur Tibet 14:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I think we should develop a new article structure and then move the existing material into it, finding citations as we do so. I've begun a new outline at Tantra/temp. My starting point is the structure of two books: the first part is the structure of The Roots of Tantra edited by Harper and Brown, and the Tantra in practice section is from the book of the same name edited by David Gordon White.
Now, it's probably a copyvio to use the section headings from these books verbatim, and many are not optimal heading titles, but I think its a good starting point and we can discuss changing the wording of some and removing others. Tantra is a broad subject, and I think it is important that we know what topics we are going to include and have a good general structure for the article to facilitate getting the article in better shape.
Any thoughts? — Hanuman Das 13:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
agreed. neotantra turns up everywhere: probably beacuse of people enthusiastic to take a stand against it!
-- Supernaut76 21:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Gauravjwal 21:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC), a few thoughts: i like the structure that the article's beginning to take but i think the essence of the article is still a little too esoteric. the purpose should be to demystify tantra as much as possible..for instance..i added the following mid july:
A common misconception in tantra is that it encourages free sex as a path to divine bliss. Pleasure is not a driving force in "tantrik sex". Sex is a tool to realise the divinity that lies within. An orgasm, though a result of sexual communion with a partner, does not "come" from the partner but arises within the self. The source of the pleasure lies within. A Tantrik explores that source and tries to understand and even control it. For a Tantrik the purpose of sex is not the orgasm per se, but the moment of thoughtlessness that one experiences at the peak of an orgasm. At that point the mind is truly thoughtless, and to achieve and understand that state is the goal of any yogi, tantrik or otherwise.
i think the above text clarifies the purpose and the role of sex in tantra, albeit only to an extent.i think our aim should be clarity and in this regard Tantra and sex - traditional and neotantric views is a little vague.
lets discuss the following structure: 1.tantra: what is 2.convey the essense of tantra: "accept all reject none"(agree/disagree?) 3.Concepts and practises associated with Tantra: right hand/left hand etc; other practises. 4.tantra and sex...remove misconceptions etc. Also kundalini can be included here. 5.history/vedic origins. 6.modern tantra. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gauravjwal ( talk • contribs)
Please consider the capitalist implications of respecting copyright. I would rather you ask "Is it creative" than "Am I going to break the law". Mark
i appreciate the points you made. i'll mention citations henceforth-- Gauravjwal 07:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
About the "accept all, reject none" tenet. All literature i've studied mentions that tantra epouses one to accept all reality as aspects/manifestations of the "Divine Mother". Including those which are otherwise "shunned" like meat, parched grain, alcohol... One citable source i can quote from in this regard is the book Divine Light by SK Das; "The Tantra Sadhaka, by this method of worship, is made at the outset to feel and then by higher process of self-culture, to realise All-Blissful-Mother, in the universe.Nothing is condemnable". "Nothing is condemnable" is the phrase to note-- Gauravjwal 07:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Gauravjwal I altered this paragraph considerably, although I accept the validity of your point. The original seemed a little defensive to me and not adequately contextualised. I also thought that the essence of the act should not have been stated as being the " thoughtlessness that arises " although I agree this an important aspect. I think with something as protean as tantra one must be careful in making statements about essence - can be acceptable if contextualised though. I guess there are too many exceptions that break the rule in Tantra.
-- Supernaut76 12:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC
To educate or write authentically on this subject one need's a lot of experience in it's absence just "cut and paste" will not do much representation.
The subject will be distorted enough and any effort to "cut and paste" will only add to the confusion , safest path is to use open or out of copyright books and leave the subject at the introductory stage ao no book is better than John Woodroff's.§≈
I removed this section. The section read like an essay. With no sources given it seems to much like original research. If anyone can show how it is not original research, for example, showing sources for a phrase like "Too many westerners...." then I think they should rewrite it. TheRingess 22:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Ringness - why don't you edify us by contributing to the Tantra/temp article or suggesting corrections. i think these large scale deletions are highly inappropriate, especially if not replaced by more suitable referenced material. Supernaut76 19:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't think this is original research - read the references provided. I think that your approach is overstudious in critique without actually providing any alternatives. The perspectives cited are well known even in scholarly approaches. In time someone may find an academic article that does a statistical survey of knowledge/attitudes in 'the west' re: Hindu Tantra - until then I think a commonsense approach is advisable as long as it is broadly consistent with views of scholars/practioners. In the balance I think that deleting this section is the worse of the two evils, one reason being that people searching for information on the subject will either come across a website pedalling sloppy pseudo-tantric techniques "that will change your sex life forever!" or a personal diatribe against the sexual aspects of Tantra. I don't think its your job to decimate wikipedia either! Supernaut76 11:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
To many westerners Tantra is perceived as being an artful technique for enhancing sexual pleasure.
Sorry, did not intend to hurt your feelings; but just to remind you that at the last count over 99% of wikipedia was poorly referenced. Not ideal by any means, but certainly not a call to arms for the eradication of improperly referenced articles. I think the concept of a westerner is well recognised - see wikipedia article The West. Don't think the word 'many'constitutes a serious violation of wikipedias 'pillars' anymore than a word like 'popular conception'. Editorial views of relevance can be subjective too. Lets agree to keep it for now, while I find a suitable reference/sentence structure for the same.Peace. Supernaut76 12:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it really a good idea to link this article from the main page????
Considerations on tantric spirituality by Thubten Tendzin
I have just read this article and am thoroughly insulted. I hope you dont mind if I make some sweeping edits. Saiva suj 19:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
You are not talking about the article written by Thubten Yeshe, are you? Austerlitz 88.72.11.82 10:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
No, I did not read that. I mean this wikipedia article. Saiva suj 15:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It has been Thubten Tendzin, but it doesn't matter. Better late than never! Austerlitz 88.72.0.88 16:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Satisfactory resolution. Thanks Hanuman Das - had forgotten where I had put the cited version I had written. As you can see Ringess, most of the original paragraph is retained. You need to come off your perch every so often.
I'm not trying to suppress your edits. I just think they should be somewhere other than in the intro. It's too much detail for the intro. HeBhagawan
Namaskar. I understand that this is the English Wikipedia, and thus, contributers speak English. However, I would like to point out that many English sources on Tantra are flawed, and this is causing some very disturbing material to appear on this article. Tantra is not sex, and has nothing to do with sex. It has nothing to do with breaking taboos. This is the wrong idea. I and my family are of the Tantrika Parampara and this is very insulting to me, and a disgrace to our heritage. I feel handicapped in repairing any sections of this article with all the filth that is continuously dumped into it. Please, cite scriptures, and bhasyas of scriptures as sources, do not use Western scholarly sources. Namaḥṣivaya, ॐ Śaiva Sujīţ ॐ 15:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If you are interested in contributing in such a fashion,
http://www.muktabodhalib.org/SECURE/digital_library_index.htm is a wonderful resource.
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīţ
सुजीत ॐ
16:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Saiva, The problem is not so much that they cite Western sources. The problem is that the article is a mess. It is jumbled and incoherent--in addition to over-emphasizing a particular kind of Tantra. We need to do with Tantra what we have done with Hinduism: Have the early parts of the article describe the things that all followers of Tantra have in common: Worship of God as Mother, reverence for the Tantrik scriptues, the goal of spiritual experience, the history of Tantra, major places of pilgrimage, etc. Then after the article has described all the things that all agree on, it should have separate sections for the divergent sects and practices. In its current state, this article just focuses mostly on one concept of Tantra, and it's definately not one that most or all Tantriks would agree on. HeBhagawan 02:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, using scriptures as a source is not necessarily primary research. It depends on how you use them. HeBhagawan 02:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the addition of this material.
It is material copied directly from this link: http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Newhomepage/Resource/essays/4traditionsofsrividya.html so it is a possible copyright violation.
Also, it listed no sources and seemed to be a personal essay.
TheRingess 21:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
About the External link on the Tantra in the modern world section: This is a link to a commercial website (many links to amazon products), with content that doesn't seem of primary importance for the subject. This link falls in the number 3 point of the "Links normally to be avoided" according to the Wikipedia external links page. I suggest that we remove this link and citation. I tried to remove the link but someone immediately put it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philippemv ( talk • contribs)
This citation is not of primary interest and I suspect that it has been inserted by someone who wants the viewers to visit the website it is linking to, maybe you, 999? If we start with these kinds of practices on this article, a lot of people will want to promote their website in the same way. If you agree with this, express your voice here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philippemv ( talk • contribs)
I agree to removing the link. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 18:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for this correction 999. I am myself very concerned about bringing the best information possible about traditional Tantra. Nevertheless, I keep thinking That there is several other websites about traditional tantra that are incomparatively more valuable and interesting than this one, here is 2 of them as examples: the website of David Frawley: vedanet.com or the website of George Feuerstein: www.traditionalyogastudies.com/articles_tantra-kundalini_neo.html Hopefully other voices will come here to comment on this.
I am reminding you all to stray from speculative unfounded misinterpretations misconstrued as sources, and rely on more solid foundations. If any of you have respect, knowledge, or affiliation with Tantrika Parampara, you will know or learn what I mean. As I mentioned above, a fantastic source to use is
http://www.muktabodhalib.org/SECURE/digital_library_index.htm .
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
19:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
You have to be joking. It's a library. It is the most informative resource out of any of the garbage that any of you have posted. It is entirely nonsensical to remove that link. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 17:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I believe I am the site owner for the external link being discussed here. I did not add the link, however I do want to add a few words to this discussion. I am initiated into a Tantrik Parampara. I have studied and practiced in my tradition for twenty years, and I have permission to teach. Additionally, I have published a book about Tantra and other subjects with the University of Minnesota Press. I am grateful that any link to my site has cropped up on Wikipedia so that sincere students can more easily find authentic information about this living tradition. So, I thank you for leaving the link in. In matriseva, Shambhavi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.44.92 ( talk • contribs)
Hari OM. Pandits now and again questioned Sri Ma Anandamayi about some activity or idea that was "not in the shastras." Her answer? If you are looking at a map, you see only the major points of interest, not every detail between these points. Only intensive sadhana will reveal the entire landscape. Also through sadhana, one discovers that everything is both personal and impersonal. If the shastras were not revealed through the same wisdom of Reality as one encounters through "personal" sadhana, what use would they be? Tantra is only another name for Reality. Anyone can discover it through sincere application, Guru, and grace. This nondiscrimination is a fundament of Tantrik View, and of Reality itself. OM Shanti, Shambhavi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.44.92 ( talk • contribs)
Hari OM. I would prefer sincere seekers to have ready access to authentic View confirmed by practice from any source without dogmatism and to thoughtful scholarship. There is no opposition. By your "kosher" test as stated above, even the secondary treatises by your own Guru, Swami Lakshman Joo, would not be acceptable. OM Shanti, Shambhavi—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.44.92 ( talk • contribs)
Hari OM. It gives me great delight to know that "koshur" signifies "kashmiri." Please be so kind as to write to me privately and let me know your understanding of the origin of this seeming confluence. shambhavi108[AT]earthlink.net OM Shanti, Shambhavi—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.44.92 ( talk • contribs)
The following sections are erroneous, and uncited. I will either remove them or completely change them (with [new] citations) "Tantric Chakras" "Hindu Tantra" "Tantra and the Vedas" "Kundalini in Hindu Tantra". And, as far as about every other piece of garbage in this article... the only presence it deserves is perhaps a very lucky mention in "See Also".
Please have (or at least show) some respect.
ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 19:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Having read this article, seen the dispute tag and had a quick look at this discussion page, I thought I'd raise an issue. Slightly embarrassed, I was thinking about Sting and his famous 8-hour orgasms urban myth so I thought I'd check out what wikipedia had to say. The last paragraph of 'sexual rites' is, to me, total gibberish. What is 'infinite awareness'? Why mention this concept when it's so transparently impossible? "The sushumna nadi is awakened and kundalini rises up, resulting in an awesome cosmic awareness in which all residual individuality is completely disintegrated in the stream of samadhi consciousness." What's an 'awesome cosmic awareness'? What's a cosmic awareness, full stop? I'm aware of the cosmos, and that it's awesome, I don't need tantra for that. And how can individuality 'disintegrate'? And apparently 'each participant expriences a fusion of their own Shiva and Shakti energies'. That means the sum total of absolutely nothing to me at all.
To be brutal, if someone was standing in front of me reading this paragraph, I'd think they were parodying tantra, not explaining it. All I'm saying is that writers have got to bear in mind the casual, the uninformed, and the sceptical when writing these articles. Sorry to be harsh. Trent 900 00:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
"I'd think they were parodying tantra, not explaining it." Exactly!
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
01:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
So now one has not only to make experential gnosis consistent with western scientific empiricism of what is physically possible, but also supplicate to sniggering cynicism? The concepts of infinite awareness, cosmic awareness and ego disintegration have been thoroughly commented upon in spiritual, psychological and philosophical literature - both east and west, directly and in allegory. I'm not claiming that Satyananda's writing is the most articulate; but I think your criticism is uninformed and superficial. Would have absolutely no problem with someone rewriting this citing better sources, though. Supernaut76 12:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The subject is Tantra and not Vedanta. The author is stretching and, in fact, misrepresenting Shiva in Tantra with charecterestics of Brahman in Vedanta. The author connects Shiva with Chit and then, connects Chit to Sat-chit-annanda, the charecterestics of Brahman ( according to Adi Shankara and the Vedantins), a purely Vedantic concept. On the other hand, Tantra is a branch of Yoga, which has philosophical foundations in Sankhya, a totally different and competing philosophy to Vedanta. These are two seperateand distinct Darshanas in Indian philosophical tradition. Any text on Indian philosophy, such as the great treatises, such as Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy by Radhakrishnan and Moore, (pages 349-574) or Essentials of Indian Philosophy by Hiriyanna (pages 106-180) can vouch for this argument. Shiva and Shakti are Tantric concepts. It is indeed remarkable how the Vedic proponents are stretching to bring in Tantra under the umbrella of Vedanta! India can be proud of its heritage, an inheritance of all the six Darshanas, and it is not necessary to pull in all systems under one, distorting the meaning and symbolism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumkurjayadev ( talk • contribs)
As a casual visitor to this page, I think the critical step was noted above: decide what the article is about. That may require changing the name or splitting into different articles. Is Tantra different than Hindu Tantra? Keep in mind what top hits in an english search of google for Tantra lead to. Is there a specific name for an article (perhaps "Hindu Tantra" or something - I don't know) on a particular coherent religious approach that would easily avoid all the "neotantric" sexual stuff that is objectionable to adherents of that approach? Or is there really a deep seated struggle over what the unmodified word "Tantra" should mean in english, in which that word all by itself is claimed by followers of "Tantra"? In the latter case I would guess it would be an uphill battle, but there are of course many of those. Again, I'm just wondering how the different people interested in this article view the issues, and suggesting ways to make that clear in the encyclopedia. But given the common english usage, somewhere in wikipedia there will have to be a description of the sort of sexual "tantra" that so much of the web talks about, whatever our opinions of it. And remember that different people come at this from different backgrounds. My major association with the word Tantra is as part of "Tantra Dr, Boulder Colorado, USA". I used to walk on it and wait for my carpool at the intersection of Tantra and Table Mesa every day. But let's not get started on the foolishness of the name Table Mesa, or spurious associations between flat surfaces and tantra.... -- NealMcB 02:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Namaskar. Thank you for your very pragmatic and insightful comment. This is definitely a high-priority issue. It seems that the circle of editors though have firm opinions / knowledge, they are not very active, so it makes discussions long. Sometimes important questions such as this are ignored, for easier but less pertinent topics.
As per the OED, the definition of Tantra:
[Skr. tantra loom, warp, hence groundwork, principle, system, doctrine, f. tan to stretch, extend.]
One of a class of Hindu religious works in Sanskrit, of comparatively recent date, chiefly of magical and mystical nature; also, of a class of Buddhist works of similar character.
Even though we did put that notification that this article is about Hindu Tantra, which can appropriately be called Tantrika Parampara or Tantrika Tradition, we have a lot of that "neo-tantra" stuff, which has no relation to Tantrika Parampara. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 03:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Tantra is an appropriate title - if only to funnel the flood of google and wikipedia search queries, which may otherwise be routed to 'dr. loves sex tantra extravaganza' site. Reference can be made to the more appropriate name in the introductory paragraph. Also the article aims to give the reader an overview of Tantra, in addition to specifically delving into Hindu Tantra - the title 'Tantra' facilitates this. There is a balance that needs to be struck between scholarship and traditional practise. Although it is true that no authentic practioner would say ' i am doing a transgressive act' - the philosophical underpinnings and analysis of such acts need a mention; if they are from a pov of western scholarship, then so be it. Both pov's can co-exist side by side. It is only a matter of harmonizing them to a degree. One cannot dismissively brand all western scholarship 'neotantra'. I agree that extensive work and rewriting needs to be carried out, but this can include anthropological and historical analysis too. Another solution may be to have two separate articles - one titled Tantra taking a more scholarly inclusive approach and another called Tantrika Parampara that focusses more exclusively on Hindu Tantra from within the tradition, which is more scriptural. Dont know how feasible this would be as naturally there would be some overlap Supernaut76 20:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
My proposal is to make Tantra a disambiguation for Tantrika Parampara, Vajrayana, and Neo-Tantra. Neo-Tantra has no relation to Tantrika Parampara. I have no knowledge or experience with Vajrayana, but it seems to already have been seperated. I find it amazing that people take for granted that an article on Tantra is going to include discussions on sexual intercourse ... or "transgressive acts". Almost any Hindu temple that you go to today, will carry out rituals as per tantrika shastras, and I guarantee you, it will not include any of the things people discuss here. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 20:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not see why foreign language sources cannot be used. Still Saiva Suj, I feel you are narrowing the scope of the subject by eliminating elements that do not sit easily within your tradition, which although honourable is not representative of all considered aspects of the subject as they have evolved over time. A disambiguation page signifies to me a position of splitting and vagueness which is unnecessary. I think that you should make your position clear by citing appropriate references in the main article under Tantra. Tantra after all is a controversial and divisive subject - There is no reason why this conflict should not be mirrored in the main body of the article in some way as long as it is done in a scholarly manner Supernaut76 23:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The sexual rites section begins with the phrase "It has been postulated...."
Can someone rewrite this sentence to specify who did the postulating, where they postulated it, and when?
TheRingess 21:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I still contend that someone who is familiar with the source needs to rewrite the opening sentence to specify who is doing the postulating. It shouldn't be too hard. Either White himself was the postulator or he was merely repeating someone else's theories. Either way, an editor familiar with the source should have an easy time rewriting the sentence. TheRingess 23:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This section contains the following phrase: The guidance of a Guru in this process is considered imperative.
Can an interested editor rewrite this sentence to show who considers this guidance to be imperative?
TheRingess 22:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section. Without a reference, there is no way for a casual reader to know whether or not this "metaphor" is at all relevant to the tantra.
Can anyone provide a source for this section?
TheRingess 22:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section about Sting since no one provided a source where Sting actually states that he practices tantra.
Technically I'm not sure about the Dalai Lama or the others but I'll leave the decision as to whether or not they should be included in the list up to others. BTW, Sting's article in Wikipedia makes no mention of tantra.
TheRingess 22:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I once again went ahead and rewrote a sentence in this section. A sentence that contains a phrase like...."...criticized by most Western scholars..." definitely needs a source. Also, the sentence really led nowhere since only 2 scholars were then quoted. I rewrote it to simply show what George Feurstein had to say. I think someone should expand the section to include more sourced criticism. TheRingess 04:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the problem with a statement such as "Neotantra has been severely criticised by most Western scholars" is that unless it has a source, it represents original material. Since no source is given, the only way an average reader could be expected to verify it's truth, would be to read all of the different scholars and count who's critical vs. who's not. We cannot expect a reader to reasonably do so. So without a source, the reader has to take Wikipedia's word for it; which is a no-no. If we replace that sentence and add specific cited criticisms; it makes a much better article.
Also if Neotantra has been called something else by a significant number of scholars or practicioners, a reader needs to know when and where they did so, not just that they did.
I think by removing and replacing statements like the above we are taking a step closer to make this a neutral article.
TheRingess 14:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this article needs to be inclusive. I think that a section on Vajrayana should be included, there may be Bon Tantras as well. So Neo-tantra may need coverage here too. There may be another category too, depending on whether there are any other strains of tantra, Japanese Eosteric Buddhism, others?
whatever....
if there are Bon Tantras
and so forth
blah, blah
— 24.27.14.2 03:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I too believe that a more inclusive approach is advisable with brief mentions of other forms of tantra and links to their main articles. Neo-tantra may either merit brief mention or be consigned to the see also section. Supernaut76 17:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
does it make sense to include a few sentences about Tantra massage it is described on sources like: http://www.tantramassage.de/
I deleted this paragraph, to me, it read like an essay. I think if it's going to stay in, someone needs to really rewrite it. Unfortunately I'm not the one to do that. Basically, there were a lot of claims that seemed to me impossible to verify by an average reader. Just a thought. TheRingess 04:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Even though there was a reference specified, it wasn't clear to me whether or not the material was a direct quote, or a summation of material from the source. I think that an editor could improve the paragraph greatly by making it clearer in that regard. TheRingess 14:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that your edits reflect a certain attitude towards the material that is not neither helpful nor unbiased. If you object for stylistic reasons then this is understandable. More likely though I think it reads like an essay to you because you have no access to standard sources to verify what you may consider to be a 'tall story'. I doubt if an average reader would be able to verify most wiki articles on religion if they just wanted to troll through google for reputable sources. What exactly is unclear to you? Supernaut76 02:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok peace - I think that you have contributed a great deal to this article as well. Its just that I have an issue with replacing all passive voice statements. The authors make general statements regarding how a particular tradition views certain practices. Stating that these are views held by 'the guru' or the 'participants' is incorrectly attributing these views to specific persons. Supernaut76 14:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this article no longer needs a POV tag. If you have serious concerns regarding pov issues please express them here. I also suggest that we can remove the cleanup tag. I think we might wish to place a maintenance template at the top of this talk page and archive most of the material. TheRingess 16:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see a history section in this article. but am not the right person to edit it.
Though I think it could include publication dates for major texts, birth dates for major tantric philosophers, discussion and dates of major contributions and/or schisms. Etc.
TheRingess 03:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The overview section mentions the following,
The guru's role is mentioned only in the sexual rites section and briefly in the neotantra section.
I think that the overview could be expanded to include more information about the guru's role.
If there is enough material, then maybe an interested editor could create an entirely new section about the guru and their role. If different tantric traditions view the guru differently then the editor should also include those different viewpoints.
I'm probably not the one to write it.
Just a suggestion.
TheRingess 16:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Blessed Selves
I had to edit this section. The definition of "maya" given was not a Tantrik point of view.
Thanks,
shambhavi
20:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: ok. someone just reverted the edit back to the previous version. I have done my bit. I'm not a Wikpedian. The previous version was completely erroneous. So I leave it up to you all to sort it out.
OM Shanti, Shambhavi
Does anyone know why this article is marked under Yoga? I think it should not be as Tantra has nearly nothing to do with Yoga darshana. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 09:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I came across the article Tantric Sexuality while on bad-article-cleanup. It appears to offer slightly different viewpoints to this article's "sexual practices" section - and a LONG references list.
I'm unsure on whether to recommend a merge to this article, a split of the "sexual practices" section into that article, or a "see also" link - but feel that it would be unencyclopedic not to harmonize the two articles somehow. Help from experts needed... -- Alvestrand 06:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
What is the historic orgins of Tantra. I dont know if this is a historic revisionist viewpoint but from one source I heard that Tantra was invented by the Tibetans and later the Indians adopted it. Go figure.
regards Bob (Mar 7, 2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.128.230 ( talk) 23:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC).
I notice that there the Tantra article is the current "Hinduism-related Collaboration of the week" and so I will chime in.
I have not actively worked on this article but I would like to make some general comment about how I think it currently reads. In a nutshell, I think the article could be improved by making a more clear differentiation between the concepts of Tantra, Vamachara, and Shaktism.
The term "Tantras" covers a huge range of scriptures that includes things such as guidelines on consecration of publlic water tanks, laws of inheritance of property, and guidelines for punishment of treason. N.N. Bhattacharya notes the broad sociological issue in this passage:
"{Tantrism] was more than a mere religious system or stream or undercurrent. Its intimate association with the practical aspects of life is proved by the emphasis it attached to the arts of agriculture, metallurgy, manual and technical labour, chemical sciences, physiology, embryology and medicine. The sociological viewpoints expressed in the Tantras were in virtual opposition to those upheld by the Smārta-Puranic tradition." <ref>N.N. Bhattacharya, ''History of the Tantric Religion'' (Delhi: Manohar, 1999), p. 12.</ref>
There is a popular tendency to identify Tantra exclusively with Vamachara, "the left-handed path". However in most of the philosophical and legal Tantras there is no place for Vamachara at all. The Western tendency to interpret Tantra in a highly sexualized way tends to overlook the existence of the practical Tantras as a category and to misrepresent the highly abstract philosophical nature of the philosophical Tantras. I must admit that in saying this I show a personal bias, which is that I think that Western interpretations of tantra are sometimes culturally-insensitive to Hindu traditions, over-emphasizing sexual aspects. The same hyper-sexualization of religious sources is seen in the Western reflex to translate the term " lingam" as meaning only "penis" without being aware of more general meanings such as "sign" or "mark" or "characteristic".
There is a similar confusion regarding the relation between the Shakta tradition and the Tantra tradition. Douglas Renfrew Books summarizes this point by saying that:
"Goudriaan makes clear that not all Śāktas are Tantrics and that Tantrism, unlike Śāktism, is not restricted to any one Hindu denomination, or even to any single Indian religious tradition."<ref>Douglas Renfrew Brooks, ''The Secret of the Three Cities: An Introduction to Hindu Shakta Tantrism'' (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1990), p. 48. ISBN 0-226-07570-2.</ref>
Thus a worshipper of the Goddess is a Shakta but that does not automatically make him or her a Tantric, and vice versa. For example, within denominations such as the Ganapatya there are forms of worship that are classified as Tantric that are not primarily centered on the Goddess, and which have nothing to do with Vamachara. See, for example, Gudrun Bühnemann's book The Worship of Mahāgaṇapati According To The Nityotsava (Institut für Indologie: 1988) ISBN 81-86218-12-2.
I present these opinions here on the talk page to test if there is any agreement by other editors regarding these ideas.
Buddhipriya 21:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
how can the development of Tantra Massage be connected to this article ? See the following sources:
-- 87.79.243.246 14:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Arthur Avalon (1918) [1] affirms that the Five Nectars of Tantra, Hindu and Buddhist traditions are directly related to the Mahābhūta or Five Elements and that the Panchamakara is actually a vulgar term for the Panchatattva and affirms that this is cognate with Ganapuja:
Worship with the Pañcatattva generally takes place in a Cakra or circle composed of men and women, Sadhakas and Sadhikas, Bhairavas and Bhairavis sitting in a circle, the Shakti being on the Sadhaka's left. Hence it is called Cakrapuja. A Lord of the Cakra (Cakreshvara) presides sitting with his Shakti in the center. During the Cakra, there is no distinction of caste, but Pashus of any caste are excluded. There are various kinds of Cakra -- productive, it is said, of differing fruits for the participator therein. As amongst Tantrik Sadhakas we come across the high, the low, and mere pretenders, so the Cakras vary in their characteristics from say the Tattva-cakra for the Brahma-kaulas, and the Bhairavi-cakra (as described in Mahanirvana, VII. 153) in which, in lieu of wine, the householder fakes milk, sugar and honey (Madhura-traya), and in lieu of sexual union does meditation upon the Lotus Feet of the Divine Mother with Mantra, to Cakras the ritual of which will not be approved such as Cudacakra, Anandabhuvana-yoga and others referred to later.
"Cakrapuja" is cognate with Ganachakra or Ganachakrapuja.
B9 hummingbird hovering ( talk • contribs) 11:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
B9 hummingbird hovering ( talk • contribs) 02:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)