![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Archives: | |
The cited site http://www.ballerinagallery.com/toumanov.htm is not a reliable source. It is "an unofficial fan site created and maintained by Jorgen Wilhelmsson" [1] and believes that "Tamara Toumanova (Tumanishvili) was born in 1919 by Georgian parents" while it is a fact that at least her father wasn't a Georgian. Citations like Georgian Dancers, LLC Books, 2010 and International Encyclopedia of Dance, Oxford University Press, 1998 are not correct, authors and pages are not mentioned. See WP:RS and WP:Offline. 89.178.121.40 ( talk) 07:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
You want sources about Tamar's Georgian descent. You may see them here: http://www.ballerinagallery.com/toumanov.htm http://burusi.wordpress.com/cinema/tamara-toumanova-tumanishvili/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.180.14 ( talk) 16:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I've protected this page for 3 days due to an ongoing edit war. Use the time to resolve this dispute. Users who continue to edit war after protection expires may be blocked from editing so that non-disruptive editors are not prevented from improving and maintaining this article. Regards, causa sui ( talk) 19:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Even if Khasidovitch was her father, we do not know whether that was her name at birth, because 1. Eugenia, a socialite with multiple relations, could be unsure as to whose child she was. 2.If Khasidovitch was a tsarist colonel, as the sources claim, then it was possibly unwise for Eugenia to let the world know that Tamara was his daughter, considering that in revolutionary Russia tsarist loyalists where themselves fleeing. That is why I propose that we drop discussing her birth name altogether, unless there is an explicit proof-- Andriabenia ( talk) 10:19, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Then show me that naturalization document, don't show me an ancestry.com listing. Ancestry.com search list is not a document.-- Andriabenia ( talk) 13:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Прошу воздержаться от доступа к основному тексту статьи о Тамаре. Shulyatikov ( talk) 05:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I ask to refrain from access to the basic text of article about Tamara. Shulyatikov ( talk) 06:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I am going to revert to the pre-revert war version, which means that the so called "references" that have been inserted afterwards will be removed. To avoid later confusion, I am going to restate what I discussed endlessly in the archived talk, as well as edit summaries when I first cleaned up the article.
If one really wants to revert to the pre-edit war version one needs to go way back. The edit war and sock puppet edits seem to have begun here, with the Armenian POV-pushing. The user IP 178.176.133.57, commenting above, may be linked to Gazifikator/Rast5. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 16:14, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Revert to Original Version
Dear all,
In regards to this article, it clearly needs to be returned to previous version (it seems that only one party (Gazifikator) is changing it back to the current version). Tamara herself, as well as her mother have both explicitly claimed Georgian descent (references included) and have never mentioned any Armenian roots, so I am quite puzzled as to why there is a dispute. On top of that all her contemporary press note her as being Georgian as well as her biographers. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and should be treated as one. One should take more care when finding something on the internet and citing without checking the sources. - out of eight sources mentioned that claim Tamara had Armenian ancestry, six refer to the same source, Thomas Stearns Eliot. So there is no need to be quoting so many sources as it leads to the same source in the end (rest can be put into further reading) - Only other unique source is Ms. Lopato, whose comments have since been disregarded by such distinguished authors as A. Vassiliev (please refer to his latest edition of his book).
Only unique and primary sources should used for the main part of the article:
- Book George Balanchine: The Ballet Maker by Robert Gottlieb p.136: Tamara Toumanova quote "He took real care of me...he used to love Mama and Papa...with my tristesse, with my being part Georgian." [7]
- The Hartford Courant Interview, 03 Nov 1934: "...her mother...Madame was a Georgian? But yes, certainly and did the interviewer know of the beauty of Georgia, the gallantry of the Georgian men and, ah, the loveliness..." [8]
- Examiner, 19 Apr 1952: "...daughter of colonel and a Georgian..." [9] - Baby Ballerina Still on Her Toes at 76 20 Aug 1995, by Marc Shulgold (Music / Dance writer): "Tamara was a tempestuous Georgian lady..." [10]
- Her nephew (grandson of her mothers brother, Zakaria Tumanishvili) Georgian artist G. Pkhakadze: "...they descend from a great Georgian family...our family in Tbilisi received a call from Tamara Toumanova with sad news of her mother passing away...she wanted her mother to be buried in Tbilisi, Georgia..." [11]
- Her niece, a famous pianist M. Chkheidze: "Eugenia Tumanishvili's mother was my aunt, a Georgian Princess Chkheidze...we would speak over the phone with Tamara and my brother managed to visit her in LA before she passed away...she would send us some of her memorabilia, but we did not find means to attend the auction of her unique memorabilia when it was auctioned after her death..." interview on 15 Nov 2004 by David Guigauri and interview by Mr. Shulyatikov on 22 Oct 2011
- Quote by Irina Baronova, Tamara's life long best friend from the age of 11 and a fellow "Baby Ballerina": "We never had a rivalry, Baronova insisted, "even though Tamara was a tempestuous Georgian lady..." [12]
- Statement by the great ballerina Nina Ananiashvili who knew Tamara personally: "It was a dream to meet one of the first legendary Georgian ballerinas.." "...a photograph was brought to me of Tamara in a Georgian dress..." [13]
- The Hound & Horn, Volume 7, 1933, p. 120: "Tamara Toumanova, a name that should soon be world-famed...she is Georgian, aged fifteen..." [17]
- Artists of the Dance by Lillian Moore, 1938, p.236: "...daughter of the colonel and a gentlewoman of aristocratic Georgian lineage." [18]
- Fashion & Style by A. Vasiliev: "she was born to...Khasidovich-Boretsky and a Georgian, Eugenia..." [19]
- A Glimpse of Olympus by Diana Menuhin, 1996, p.78: "Toumanova has a beautiful Georgian face..." [20]
- Official Russian site of television and theatre "Kino-Teatr": "...her mother was a Georgian, Eugenia...nee Tumanishvili.." [21].
Request to admin to revert the changes to the original version, before changes by Gazifikator.
Best regards,
-- DanceStation ( talk) 21:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
The source added here consists of Wikipedia articles, according to Amazon.com. Wikipedia should not cite itself. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 11:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
According to Georgian relatives from Toumanov(Toumanishvili)side,Vladimir Khasidovich was stepfather of Tamara Toumanova. Bibikate ( talk) 21:23, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This is interview with Tamara Toumanova's Georgian relatives http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/arts/dance/balanchine-and-toumanova-in-a-teenagers-eyes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Bibikate ( talk) 21:26, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Legal husband of Eugenia Toumanova and real father of Tamara Toumanova was military person Konstantin Zakharov.
Bibikate (
talk) 21:29, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Tamara Toumanova was not born as Tamara Vladimirovna Khassidovitch as you write on wikipedia page.Because her mother Eugenia met Vladimir Khassidovitch later.
Bibikate (
talk) 21:32, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
A name such as Khassidovich should clearly indicate Jewish origin. As for stating that they were Georgian, how people described themselves in these decades of the 20th century may have little to do with reality, and everything to do with what they wanted people to think. The sources mean nothing. As for Wikipedia being an encyclopedia. As long as anyone can contribute or change it, it has no real standing as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.140.79.240 ( talk) 04:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/105886027558885815466/album/AF1QipNhyBKoeFmVAfLs4pYokwqCjcg7VfUBshD3j6nW Shulyatikov ( talk) 17:43, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
In last paragraph:
http://www.cmuse.org/curious-facts-about-tchaikovsky-swan-lake/ -- Santasa99 ( talk) 12:30, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Tamara Toumanova. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:58, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
While looking at the back and forth about her nationality, I don't see a source cited for the place of birth. Which source supports where she was born? For that matter, is there anything to indicate her nationality at her birth? — C.Fred ( talk) 20:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Archives: | |
The cited site http://www.ballerinagallery.com/toumanov.htm is not a reliable source. It is "an unofficial fan site created and maintained by Jorgen Wilhelmsson" [1] and believes that "Tamara Toumanova (Tumanishvili) was born in 1919 by Georgian parents" while it is a fact that at least her father wasn't a Georgian. Citations like Georgian Dancers, LLC Books, 2010 and International Encyclopedia of Dance, Oxford University Press, 1998 are not correct, authors and pages are not mentioned. See WP:RS and WP:Offline. 89.178.121.40 ( talk) 07:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
You want sources about Tamar's Georgian descent. You may see them here: http://www.ballerinagallery.com/toumanov.htm http://burusi.wordpress.com/cinema/tamara-toumanova-tumanishvili/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.180.14 ( talk) 16:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I've protected this page for 3 days due to an ongoing edit war. Use the time to resolve this dispute. Users who continue to edit war after protection expires may be blocked from editing so that non-disruptive editors are not prevented from improving and maintaining this article. Regards, causa sui ( talk) 19:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Even if Khasidovitch was her father, we do not know whether that was her name at birth, because 1. Eugenia, a socialite with multiple relations, could be unsure as to whose child she was. 2.If Khasidovitch was a tsarist colonel, as the sources claim, then it was possibly unwise for Eugenia to let the world know that Tamara was his daughter, considering that in revolutionary Russia tsarist loyalists where themselves fleeing. That is why I propose that we drop discussing her birth name altogether, unless there is an explicit proof-- Andriabenia ( talk) 10:19, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Then show me that naturalization document, don't show me an ancestry.com listing. Ancestry.com search list is not a document.-- Andriabenia ( talk) 13:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Прошу воздержаться от доступа к основному тексту статьи о Тамаре. Shulyatikov ( talk) 05:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I ask to refrain from access to the basic text of article about Tamara. Shulyatikov ( talk) 06:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I am going to revert to the pre-revert war version, which means that the so called "references" that have been inserted afterwards will be removed. To avoid later confusion, I am going to restate what I discussed endlessly in the archived talk, as well as edit summaries when I first cleaned up the article.
If one really wants to revert to the pre-edit war version one needs to go way back. The edit war and sock puppet edits seem to have begun here, with the Armenian POV-pushing. The user IP 178.176.133.57, commenting above, may be linked to Gazifikator/Rast5. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 16:14, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Revert to Original Version
Dear all,
In regards to this article, it clearly needs to be returned to previous version (it seems that only one party (Gazifikator) is changing it back to the current version). Tamara herself, as well as her mother have both explicitly claimed Georgian descent (references included) and have never mentioned any Armenian roots, so I am quite puzzled as to why there is a dispute. On top of that all her contemporary press note her as being Georgian as well as her biographers. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and should be treated as one. One should take more care when finding something on the internet and citing without checking the sources. - out of eight sources mentioned that claim Tamara had Armenian ancestry, six refer to the same source, Thomas Stearns Eliot. So there is no need to be quoting so many sources as it leads to the same source in the end (rest can be put into further reading) - Only other unique source is Ms. Lopato, whose comments have since been disregarded by such distinguished authors as A. Vassiliev (please refer to his latest edition of his book).
Only unique and primary sources should used for the main part of the article:
- Book George Balanchine: The Ballet Maker by Robert Gottlieb p.136: Tamara Toumanova quote "He took real care of me...he used to love Mama and Papa...with my tristesse, with my being part Georgian." [7]
- The Hartford Courant Interview, 03 Nov 1934: "...her mother...Madame was a Georgian? But yes, certainly and did the interviewer know of the beauty of Georgia, the gallantry of the Georgian men and, ah, the loveliness..." [8]
- Examiner, 19 Apr 1952: "...daughter of colonel and a Georgian..." [9] - Baby Ballerina Still on Her Toes at 76 20 Aug 1995, by Marc Shulgold (Music / Dance writer): "Tamara was a tempestuous Georgian lady..." [10]
- Her nephew (grandson of her mothers brother, Zakaria Tumanishvili) Georgian artist G. Pkhakadze: "...they descend from a great Georgian family...our family in Tbilisi received a call from Tamara Toumanova with sad news of her mother passing away...she wanted her mother to be buried in Tbilisi, Georgia..." [11]
- Her niece, a famous pianist M. Chkheidze: "Eugenia Tumanishvili's mother was my aunt, a Georgian Princess Chkheidze...we would speak over the phone with Tamara and my brother managed to visit her in LA before she passed away...she would send us some of her memorabilia, but we did not find means to attend the auction of her unique memorabilia when it was auctioned after her death..." interview on 15 Nov 2004 by David Guigauri and interview by Mr. Shulyatikov on 22 Oct 2011
- Quote by Irina Baronova, Tamara's life long best friend from the age of 11 and a fellow "Baby Ballerina": "We never had a rivalry, Baronova insisted, "even though Tamara was a tempestuous Georgian lady..." [12]
- Statement by the great ballerina Nina Ananiashvili who knew Tamara personally: "It was a dream to meet one of the first legendary Georgian ballerinas.." "...a photograph was brought to me of Tamara in a Georgian dress..." [13]
- The Hound & Horn, Volume 7, 1933, p. 120: "Tamara Toumanova, a name that should soon be world-famed...she is Georgian, aged fifteen..." [17]
- Artists of the Dance by Lillian Moore, 1938, p.236: "...daughter of the colonel and a gentlewoman of aristocratic Georgian lineage." [18]
- Fashion & Style by A. Vasiliev: "she was born to...Khasidovich-Boretsky and a Georgian, Eugenia..." [19]
- A Glimpse of Olympus by Diana Menuhin, 1996, p.78: "Toumanova has a beautiful Georgian face..." [20]
- Official Russian site of television and theatre "Kino-Teatr": "...her mother was a Georgian, Eugenia...nee Tumanishvili.." [21].
Request to admin to revert the changes to the original version, before changes by Gazifikator.
Best regards,
-- DanceStation ( talk) 21:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
The source added here consists of Wikipedia articles, according to Amazon.com. Wikipedia should not cite itself. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 11:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
According to Georgian relatives from Toumanov(Toumanishvili)side,Vladimir Khasidovich was stepfather of Tamara Toumanova. Bibikate ( talk) 21:23, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This is interview with Tamara Toumanova's Georgian relatives http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/arts/dance/balanchine-and-toumanova-in-a-teenagers-eyes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Bibikate ( talk) 21:26, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Legal husband of Eugenia Toumanova and real father of Tamara Toumanova was military person Konstantin Zakharov.
Bibikate (
talk) 21:29, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Tamara Toumanova was not born as Tamara Vladimirovna Khassidovitch as you write on wikipedia page.Because her mother Eugenia met Vladimir Khassidovitch later.
Bibikate (
talk) 21:32, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
A name such as Khassidovich should clearly indicate Jewish origin. As for stating that they were Georgian, how people described themselves in these decades of the 20th century may have little to do with reality, and everything to do with what they wanted people to think. The sources mean nothing. As for Wikipedia being an encyclopedia. As long as anyone can contribute or change it, it has no real standing as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.140.79.240 ( talk) 04:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/105886027558885815466/album/AF1QipNhyBKoeFmVAfLs4pYokwqCjcg7VfUBshD3j6nW Shulyatikov ( talk) 17:43, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
In last paragraph:
http://www.cmuse.org/curious-facts-about-tchaikovsky-swan-lake/ -- Santasa99 ( talk) 12:30, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Tamara Toumanova. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:58, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
While looking at the back and forth about her nationality, I don't see a source cited for the place of birth. Which source supports where she was born? For that matter, is there anything to indicate her nationality at her birth? — C.Fred ( talk) 20:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)