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A nicely written article, this seems, upon a quick scan, to cover the majority of what I'd imagine one would need to say on the subject. But this needs a picture. While I like all articles to have pictures, it is particularly essential for an article on a particular style or type of weapon with a distinctive appearance. Words can only describe it so well, especially if the reader has never heard of a shamshir or a kilic. I think this article also needs to have some further explanation of the terms used; I am an Asian studies major, with a focus on classical/feudal military history, and I do not recognize more than half the terms used here. Clarity to the average, uninformed, reader is the goal here. Proper, technical, and accurate terminology is essential to a good article, but so is clarity. LordAmeth 02:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The talwar has been know in Rajasthan since the early 13th Century. The talwar has been brought to the United States soon after then time.
The "Sirohi blade" is believed to be the lightest among all talwars...Sirohi is a town in southern Rajasthan.
http://www.indianngos.com/districts/sirohi_about.htm
Over half of the whole article is video game references. Are they really notable enough to warrant a mention? And I agree with LordAmeth, this article needs a picture. 130.234.5.136 19:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The article said: "when a blow was struck by a skilled warrior limbs could be amputated and heads decapitated." I changed "decapitated" to the correct "severed". A head cannot be decapitated unless it has another head on it. It is the body that is decapitated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.113.105.186 ( talk) 06:50, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
In my personal opinion, a rather important characteristic is missing from this article..... How big is it????? Seriously. Is it 3 feet long....6 feet long...what??? Even the picture doesn't show a good referent of size. How about a picture of a person holding it? That isn't perfect, but it would be better....Or at least list some dimensions. I'm aware that there were probably variations through time, but how about dimensions for the most common variant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.156.135.206 ( talk) 13:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
They vary in blade length, from about 25in to 34in, average probably 28-30in. Urselius ( talk) 17:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Recent unhelpful edits have raised the possibility of an Indian origin for sabre-like swords.
Early Indian curved swords are indeed shown in sculpture, however, they were sharp on the inside of the curve, they were 'sickle-swords' not unlike the Ancient Egyptian khopesh. The sabre-like sword, with the cutting edge on the outside of the curve, originated in Turkish Central Asia from about 600AD onwards, ALL sabre-like swords are descended from these early examples. It entered the Middle East when used by Turkish mercenaries employed by the Abbasid Caliphate in the 9th century. At about the same period the sabre entered Europe, introduced by the Magyars. The introduction of the sabre to India would seem to coincide with Mongol and Muslim incursions from Afghanistan and Iran where sabre use was already established. Urselius ( talk) 10:20, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
This article has attracted a number of unregisterd editors bent on making it a nationalistic point-scoring exercise. Please have the courtesy of placing any material you wish to add or change on this page for open discussion before you change the article itself. Wikipedia is intended to be factual and bias-free. Urselius ( talk) 13:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
At present the introduction has languages and countries listed in order from those of greatest population to least, this seems to me as an impartial contributor to be the most equitable. Any rearrangements of this order, or of the text in general, for nationalistic point scoring purposes will be reverted. Urselius ( talk) 10:06, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
The Talwar with a wootz blade in the picture is no wootz! It is probably a modern pattern welded steel with a birds eye pattern as very often seen on ebay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.153.238.117 ( talk) 14:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
A talwar can have many different blade types, some of these have a yelmen, it is not unusual at all, Indian sword makers often used blades from other cultures and fitted them with a talwar hilt. it is the hilt that is distintive. Put a pulwar hilt on a talwar blade and it instantly becomes a pulwar. If you search online for "talwar yelmen" or "tulwar yelmen" you will see many such examples, also both images used in the article have yelman so how unusual is it really? 70.196.133.254 ( talk) 00:59, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
ajanta painting 4th-6th Century AD
pallava mahabalipuram, south india 7th Century AD extreme top left — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.135.118.112 ( talk) 09:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Forged in Fire: Bonus - What Is the Talwar? (Season 4) | History, says tulwar was brought to India by Muslim travellers in 700 AD, Forged In Fire confirmed that the verification was done by the History Channel . Mig Pilot ( talk) 05:09, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
These were the only dynasties ruling the Indian subcontinent during the 14th century, before them, there were no tulwars found in the Indian subcontinent, so they are the ones who brought the tulwar originally. Mig Pilot ( talk) 16:06, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
The word 'Talwar' means 'Sword' in Urdu and Hindi also, and there is a similar word called 'Tolowar' or 'Tolwar' which also means sword in Bangla. Mig Pilot ( talk) 16:12, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the following statement needing a reference: "Until the late 16th century it was common for the talwar to have a spherical or semi-spherical hilt, instead of the classic disc hilt, as depicted in manuscripts such as Akbarnama."
Academic work on the arms and armor present in Akbar era manuscripts is difficult to come by, however a large number of the manuscripts themselves do survive. This includes those from Baburnama, Akbarnama, and Hamznama, which extensively depict these style of hilts. This includes the first image on Wikipedia's article for Akbarnama. My question is if it would be appropriate in this instance to reference the historical manuscript itself, rather than a secondary source which discusses them? Esaiiii ( talk) 23:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
An example from Hamznama at the Met, as well the the miniature from the V&A's collection which was used for Wikipedia's Akbarnama article for reference.
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/447752
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O9726/akbar-painting-jagan/ Esaiiii ( talk) 23:35, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree with your point regarding that they would not be considered tulwar under contemporary western definition. Regarding the period in which these swords appear I am aware they appear extensively in Mughal artwork produced during the mid to late 16th century. Given that I'll leave it up to you, whether you consider their mention to be fit or not, for this article. Esaiiii ( talk) 23:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
As study of indian arms and armor is dominated by focus on examples from the 16th century and onwards, due to the lack of extensive examples prior to that date, I have limited access to secondary sources on anything prior to that date. The only thing we do have an abundance of is artwork. I have listed the following I am aware of Chronologically, related to the use of the Talwar. I apologize for the limited amount of secondary sources, despite that hopefully something here is useful for the article, in relation to the adoption and development of the Talwar.
Alchi Monastery Rajputs, 11th century: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcOWFDnU8AEtJxQ.jpg Disc Hilt Straight Swords
Delhi Sultanate 1430’s Shahnama : https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/447297?searchField=All&sortBy=Date&where=India&ft=Shahnama&offset=0&rpp=20&pos=6 Shamshir Only
Delhi Sultanate Jain Shahnama 1450: https://cs.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soubor:Garshasp_slays_the_dragon_Azi-Sruwar.jpg Shamshir Only
Delhi Sultanate or Timurid Shahnama, late 15th century: https://collections.mfa.org/objects/148571 Shamshir Only
Rajput Bhagwat Purana 1520s: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/37848 Classic Talwar and Shamshir
“Kalila Wa Dimna of Bidpai” Gujarat 1525-1550: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/453061 Shamshir Only (See full page view)
Akbar era Manuscripts Akbarnama, Hamzanama, Baburnama 1550-1600 In Hamzanama in particular the following swords appear: Shamshir, Shamshir with L guard, Classic Talwar, Pulwar, Zoomorphic hilts, Disc hilt straight swords, Khandas with pommel spikes, cup and ball hilt talwars Ex: https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/folio-from-the-hamzanama-volume-11-malak-mah-comes-to-the-camp-of-islam-by-night-sees-sa-id-farrukhnizhad-and-falls-in-love-with-him-akbar/rgHjSk3Z2UDlnA https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/%22Assad_Ibn_Kariba_Launches_a_Night_Attack_on_the_Camp_of_Malik_Iraj%22%2C_Folio_from_a_Hamzanama_%28The_Adventures_of_Hamza%29_MET_CAT_10r1_89A.jpg
Late Akbarnama 1605 Chester Beatty: https://viewer.cbl.ie/viewer/image/In_03_202/2/LOG_0000/ Classic Tulwars and some examples of Khanda’s and Shamshirs
Padshahnama 1633 and onwards: https://www.rct.uk/collection/themes/publications/eastern-encounters/the-decapitation-of-khan-jahan-lodi-by-abid Classic Tulwars and most other extent indian swords
Indonesia: Piso Podangs with cup and ball hilts, described as tulwar derived by experts like Runjeet Singh https://www.runjeetsingh.com/inventory/185/piso_podang https://www.facebook.com/FordeMilitaryAntiques/photos/a.379048619673302/677200976524730/
Hi Urselius, you recently reverted my edit, where I changed the s/d from "sword" (not very useful) to something more specific. Why did you undo it under the pretense that it was an unhelpful edit? Revirvlkodlaku ( talk) 01:16, 1 March 2022 (UTC) You removed useful text. If I come across an edit or series of edits that are on balance more harmful than useful I revert back to an edit that appears sound, sometimes I may not be accurate in the cut-off point. Feel free to reintroduce your edits. Urselius ( talk) 16:23, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Defend your position, 'that neutrality is more important than accuracy'. Please note that it is usual for someone who has changed the wording to defend their change, not someone who has reverted the text to its original form. Furthermore, it is usual for someone defending a change they have made not to revert before a discussion has occurred. Rather high-handed behaviour, all in all. Urselius ( talk) 10:12, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A nicely written article, this seems, upon a quick scan, to cover the majority of what I'd imagine one would need to say on the subject. But this needs a picture. While I like all articles to have pictures, it is particularly essential for an article on a particular style or type of weapon with a distinctive appearance. Words can only describe it so well, especially if the reader has never heard of a shamshir or a kilic. I think this article also needs to have some further explanation of the terms used; I am an Asian studies major, with a focus on classical/feudal military history, and I do not recognize more than half the terms used here. Clarity to the average, uninformed, reader is the goal here. Proper, technical, and accurate terminology is essential to a good article, but so is clarity. LordAmeth 02:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The talwar has been know in Rajasthan since the early 13th Century. The talwar has been brought to the United States soon after then time.
The "Sirohi blade" is believed to be the lightest among all talwars...Sirohi is a town in southern Rajasthan.
http://www.indianngos.com/districts/sirohi_about.htm
Over half of the whole article is video game references. Are they really notable enough to warrant a mention? And I agree with LordAmeth, this article needs a picture. 130.234.5.136 19:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The article said: "when a blow was struck by a skilled warrior limbs could be amputated and heads decapitated." I changed "decapitated" to the correct "severed". A head cannot be decapitated unless it has another head on it. It is the body that is decapitated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.113.105.186 ( talk) 06:50, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
In my personal opinion, a rather important characteristic is missing from this article..... How big is it????? Seriously. Is it 3 feet long....6 feet long...what??? Even the picture doesn't show a good referent of size. How about a picture of a person holding it? That isn't perfect, but it would be better....Or at least list some dimensions. I'm aware that there were probably variations through time, but how about dimensions for the most common variant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.156.135.206 ( talk) 13:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
They vary in blade length, from about 25in to 34in, average probably 28-30in. Urselius ( talk) 17:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Recent unhelpful edits have raised the possibility of an Indian origin for sabre-like swords.
Early Indian curved swords are indeed shown in sculpture, however, they were sharp on the inside of the curve, they were 'sickle-swords' not unlike the Ancient Egyptian khopesh. The sabre-like sword, with the cutting edge on the outside of the curve, originated in Turkish Central Asia from about 600AD onwards, ALL sabre-like swords are descended from these early examples. It entered the Middle East when used by Turkish mercenaries employed by the Abbasid Caliphate in the 9th century. At about the same period the sabre entered Europe, introduced by the Magyars. The introduction of the sabre to India would seem to coincide with Mongol and Muslim incursions from Afghanistan and Iran where sabre use was already established. Urselius ( talk) 10:20, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
This article has attracted a number of unregisterd editors bent on making it a nationalistic point-scoring exercise. Please have the courtesy of placing any material you wish to add or change on this page for open discussion before you change the article itself. Wikipedia is intended to be factual and bias-free. Urselius ( talk) 13:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
At present the introduction has languages and countries listed in order from those of greatest population to least, this seems to me as an impartial contributor to be the most equitable. Any rearrangements of this order, or of the text in general, for nationalistic point scoring purposes will be reverted. Urselius ( talk) 10:06, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
The Talwar with a wootz blade in the picture is no wootz! It is probably a modern pattern welded steel with a birds eye pattern as very often seen on ebay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.153.238.117 ( talk) 14:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
A talwar can have many different blade types, some of these have a yelmen, it is not unusual at all, Indian sword makers often used blades from other cultures and fitted them with a talwar hilt. it is the hilt that is distintive. Put a pulwar hilt on a talwar blade and it instantly becomes a pulwar. If you search online for "talwar yelmen" or "tulwar yelmen" you will see many such examples, also both images used in the article have yelman so how unusual is it really? 70.196.133.254 ( talk) 00:59, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
ajanta painting 4th-6th Century AD
pallava mahabalipuram, south india 7th Century AD extreme top left — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.135.118.112 ( talk) 09:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Forged in Fire: Bonus - What Is the Talwar? (Season 4) | History, says tulwar was brought to India by Muslim travellers in 700 AD, Forged In Fire confirmed that the verification was done by the History Channel . Mig Pilot ( talk) 05:09, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
These were the only dynasties ruling the Indian subcontinent during the 14th century, before them, there were no tulwars found in the Indian subcontinent, so they are the ones who brought the tulwar originally. Mig Pilot ( talk) 16:06, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
The word 'Talwar' means 'Sword' in Urdu and Hindi also, and there is a similar word called 'Tolowar' or 'Tolwar' which also means sword in Bangla. Mig Pilot ( talk) 16:12, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the following statement needing a reference: "Until the late 16th century it was common for the talwar to have a spherical or semi-spherical hilt, instead of the classic disc hilt, as depicted in manuscripts such as Akbarnama."
Academic work on the arms and armor present in Akbar era manuscripts is difficult to come by, however a large number of the manuscripts themselves do survive. This includes those from Baburnama, Akbarnama, and Hamznama, which extensively depict these style of hilts. This includes the first image on Wikipedia's article for Akbarnama. My question is if it would be appropriate in this instance to reference the historical manuscript itself, rather than a secondary source which discusses them? Esaiiii ( talk) 23:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
An example from Hamznama at the Met, as well the the miniature from the V&A's collection which was used for Wikipedia's Akbarnama article for reference.
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/447752
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O9726/akbar-painting-jagan/ Esaiiii ( talk) 23:35, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree with your point regarding that they would not be considered tulwar under contemporary western definition. Regarding the period in which these swords appear I am aware they appear extensively in Mughal artwork produced during the mid to late 16th century. Given that I'll leave it up to you, whether you consider their mention to be fit or not, for this article. Esaiiii ( talk) 23:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
As study of indian arms and armor is dominated by focus on examples from the 16th century and onwards, due to the lack of extensive examples prior to that date, I have limited access to secondary sources on anything prior to that date. The only thing we do have an abundance of is artwork. I have listed the following I am aware of Chronologically, related to the use of the Talwar. I apologize for the limited amount of secondary sources, despite that hopefully something here is useful for the article, in relation to the adoption and development of the Talwar.
Alchi Monastery Rajputs, 11th century: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcOWFDnU8AEtJxQ.jpg Disc Hilt Straight Swords
Delhi Sultanate 1430’s Shahnama : https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/447297?searchField=All&sortBy=Date&where=India&ft=Shahnama&offset=0&rpp=20&pos=6 Shamshir Only
Delhi Sultanate Jain Shahnama 1450: https://cs.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soubor:Garshasp_slays_the_dragon_Azi-Sruwar.jpg Shamshir Only
Delhi Sultanate or Timurid Shahnama, late 15th century: https://collections.mfa.org/objects/148571 Shamshir Only
Rajput Bhagwat Purana 1520s: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/37848 Classic Talwar and Shamshir
“Kalila Wa Dimna of Bidpai” Gujarat 1525-1550: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/453061 Shamshir Only (See full page view)
Akbar era Manuscripts Akbarnama, Hamzanama, Baburnama 1550-1600 In Hamzanama in particular the following swords appear: Shamshir, Shamshir with L guard, Classic Talwar, Pulwar, Zoomorphic hilts, Disc hilt straight swords, Khandas with pommel spikes, cup and ball hilt talwars Ex: https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/folio-from-the-hamzanama-volume-11-malak-mah-comes-to-the-camp-of-islam-by-night-sees-sa-id-farrukhnizhad-and-falls-in-love-with-him-akbar/rgHjSk3Z2UDlnA https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/%22Assad_Ibn_Kariba_Launches_a_Night_Attack_on_the_Camp_of_Malik_Iraj%22%2C_Folio_from_a_Hamzanama_%28The_Adventures_of_Hamza%29_MET_CAT_10r1_89A.jpg
Late Akbarnama 1605 Chester Beatty: https://viewer.cbl.ie/viewer/image/In_03_202/2/LOG_0000/ Classic Tulwars and some examples of Khanda’s and Shamshirs
Padshahnama 1633 and onwards: https://www.rct.uk/collection/themes/publications/eastern-encounters/the-decapitation-of-khan-jahan-lodi-by-abid Classic Tulwars and most other extent indian swords
Indonesia: Piso Podangs with cup and ball hilts, described as tulwar derived by experts like Runjeet Singh https://www.runjeetsingh.com/inventory/185/piso_podang https://www.facebook.com/FordeMilitaryAntiques/photos/a.379048619673302/677200976524730/
Hi Urselius, you recently reverted my edit, where I changed the s/d from "sword" (not very useful) to something more specific. Why did you undo it under the pretense that it was an unhelpful edit? Revirvlkodlaku ( talk) 01:16, 1 March 2022 (UTC) You removed useful text. If I come across an edit or series of edits that are on balance more harmful than useful I revert back to an edit that appears sound, sometimes I may not be accurate in the cut-off point. Feel free to reintroduce your edits. Urselius ( talk) 16:23, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Defend your position, 'that neutrality is more important than accuracy'. Please note that it is usual for someone who has changed the wording to defend their change, not someone who has reverted the text to its original form. Furthermore, it is usual for someone defending a change they have made not to revert before a discussion has occurred. Rather high-handed behaviour, all in all. Urselius ( talk) 10:12, 30 November 2023 (UTC)