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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Hey can we get rid of that cursed tag?! It is hideous. This article is a work in progress, and we are all working to make it NPOV. Let's have faith in each other's good faith.. <did that make sense?> Get rid of the term "ethnic groups" in the lede if it makes it more digestible. As for other sections... Their Day Will Come! Judgment Draweth Nigh! Ling.Nut 03:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Please note that the act of inserting the NPOV tag itself is NPOV. It is an assertion of a POV.
This is only acceptable if editors take the time to raise specific points which can be addressed. This is perfectly acceptable; compromises can be worked out here on Talk. I will remove the NPOV tag unless someone takes the time to raise specific points which can be addressed in a constructive manner. Ling.Nut 15:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Shhh! Don't tell anybody, but this page has become quite stable. Maowang 07:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I think for a while someone was having a big problem with it, so to make nice it was in the prior form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.140.7.29 ( talk) 09:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I totally acknowledge the mixing between Hoklo, Hakka, and pingpu peoples. I am also aware that Hoklo came from two cities Zhangzhou and Quanzhou. I also believe some single Chinese came from Chaozhou to Taiwan and mixed with others, because there is a city in Pingtung County that has the same name. Teochiu and Hoklo are very similar. I bring this up because I know many Taiwanese who claim to have an ancestor from Guangdong, and that ancestor is not a Hakka. I believe that it is highly possible that any Teochiu rapidly assimilated with Hoklo speakers. Does anyone know?
User:Dlc_73 13:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Taiwanese in Korea number 20,000? They are not Taiwanese. ( 90 percent of them are from shandong province they settled in Korean peninsula during 1950 Korean War). It was during 1980 President Chun Du Hwan era that majority of " Oversease" chinese began to adopt Taiwanese passport. ( 80 percent of them migrated to USA or to Taiwan). The actual population number is less then 20,000. Actual figure is 5-10 thousand the most. Plus they are not Taiwanese. Majority of them just say they are " overseas chinese" or just chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.63.207.12 ( talk) 07:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The section "Definitions of Taiwanese" doesn't actually contain any definitions of "Taiwanese". Instead it contains a two paragraph essay on the meaning of "group identity". No similar section is provided in the articles for "Japanese people", "Chinese people" or "American people" (I didn't check any other groups of people). The essay seems not quite neutral, though it has citations.
Readin 04:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The description of the Japanese era starts with "In the face of the Japanese colonial hierarchy, the people of Taiwan were faced with the unequal binary relationship between colonizer and colonized. This duality between 'one' and 'other'...". This seems very biased against the Japanese era, especially when compared to description given for the Kuomintang era which also had an unequal relationship which many would consider a colonizer-colonized relationship. The wording of the Japanese era should be toned down. Readin 04:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure there are books that tells about the KMT era having an unequal relationship.-- Jerry 12:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I had a look at the sources cited to support the figures of US and Canadian migrants in Taiwan and noted that the sources don't acutally support the figures. The Chinese headings say "the current population of Taiwanese migrants in the US (or Canada, as the case may be), 2000", but not the other way around as the article seems to suggest.
I think the figures should be removed as the sources cited are incorrect.-- Pyl ( talk) 14:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I find the definition highly dubious and there are sources offering conflicting definitions for this term.
Please go to talk:native Taiwanese for discussion, and let's see if we can have some resolution on this term. If no reliable sources are provided to show that 'native Taiwanese' is an unambiguous term and the definition in this article is undisputed, I will remove the term from the article. When that happens, I will leave 'benshengren' in the article as it is apparently defined without much contention.-- pyl ( talk) 13:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by the assertion that Standard Mandarin is the main language Taiwanese people speak rather than Taiwanese Mandarin since "Taiwanese Mandarin" seems to be by definition the version of Mandarin that people in Taiwan speak. Readin ( talk) 15:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I think you both got the definition of "Standard Mandarin" wrong. It is the officially regulated language by both the PRC and the ROC. They have slightly different standards but they are both called "Standard Mandarin". Then in Taiwan, due to the political separation from mainland China and influence from English, Japanese as well as Taiwanese Minnan, there are usages of Mandarin which is unique to Taiwan, that usage is called "Taiwanese Mandarin". Taiwanese Mandarin is not a language by itself. It is a dialect of Standard Mandarin. "Taiwanese Mandarin" is also a term describing the thick Min Nan accent or mispronunciation of some people when they speak in Mandarin. That's why "Taiwanese Mandarin" can also be considered a derogatory term. As the Taiwanese Mandarin article points out, Taiwanese Mandarin is essentially a series of Taiwanese usage and slang.
"bopomofo" (phonetics) and pinyin are two pronunciation tools for Standard Mandarin. Mainland China uses phonetics too but later in school, the pupils will learn pinyin. In Taiwan's case, the pupils learn phonetics and that's it. The pronunciation tools are simply roads to the final destination, which is the correct pronunciation of Standard Mandarin.
Readin, your "simply don't believe" is pretty pointless. I have explained and give you things that you can do to find out the information. You refuse to, then just give me one of those "I simply don't believes". Perhaps, you are being too arrogant? I can also say I simply don't believe that Taiwanese Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan. Go to Taiwan and speak to the people and see how much Taiwanese Mandarin they speak. Perhaps if you pay attention, you will note that they essentially speak Standard Mandarin. If you have so much free time, go change all cases of "English" to "American English" for the US and leave Mandarin along. At least, you speak English and know enough about it.
Standard Mandarin is not just a dialect of Mandarin Chinese. Standard Mandarin is the regulated national/common language. Mandarin Chinese (in Wikipedia's case) refers to the dialects, including the Beijing dialect. Have you been to Beijing and spoken to them? From my experience, some of them pronounce words differently from the pronunciation as dictated by Standard Mandarin. But it is coherent. My experience is actually mirrored in the Mandarin Chinese and Beijing dialect articles.
I feel like I have been retyping what has been said in the articles. Perhaps you want to read Standard Mandarin Taiwanese Mandarin and Beijing dialect properly before arguing further.-- pyl ( talk) 03:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I am Taiwanese American. I learned to speak Mandarin as a child in Taiwan. I speak Taiwanese better than I speak Mandarin because that is what my parents spoke at home. I have been back to Taiwan, interacted with many people from Taiwan in the U.S., people from China in the U.S., and I have also visited China several times. I can tell you that there is a clear difference in the accent, style and tone of someone who learned to speak Mandarin in Taiwan as opposed to someone who learned to speak Mandarin in China. People in China were able to identify me as Taiwanese as soon as they heard me speak Mandarin. It is not because of slang and it is definitely still proper or “standard” Mandarin. The tone used by those who learned Mandarin in Taiwan is much sweeter, nicer, less harsh sounding than the Mandarin taught in China. There is also a kind of Mandarin that is improper, mixed with slang, and possibly derogatory typically spoken by people in Taiwan residing in rural areas where Mandarin is rarely spoken. I grew up listening to my parents, tv shows filmed in Taiwan, and movies filmed in Taiwan poke fun at people (mostly elders who did not go to school during the KMT era and therefore, did not learn Mandarin in a formal setting like school) who were unable to speak proper Mandarin, unable to accurately pronounce certain words correctly and would often throw in Taiwanese words because they did not know the Mandarin equivalent. I think all of you are correct in a way with each of your assessments. Bottom line, there is a difference in the way Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan v. China and there is also improperly spoken Mandarin spoken by those in Taiwan who are not as fluent in Mandarin. Yes, sometimes it can be seen as derogatory but sometimes it is just accepted because often times, it is spoken by the older genders who spoke fluent Japanese instead, having attended school during th Japanese era. What many people fail to realize is that Mandarin was not spoken, taught, or ever used in Taiwan until the KMT forced it on the Taiwanese people with martial law in 1949. Mandarin is a fairly new dialect in Taiwan and unless you attended school after the KMT forced Mandarin onto the Taiwanese people in school, you only spoke Taiwanese, Hakka, and/or Japanese. Wendychan73 ( talk) 03:04, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
i removed the content that was sourced with Dr. Lin's claim that southern chinese are pure yueh.
first of all, she has no PHD in history, she is a geneticist, yet her entire report does not mention a single result of her tests. it is a statement claiming that northern chinese are "pure" chinese, and southern chinese yueh which is in fact laughable. she is a geneticist, not a historian. for example, if a person wit a PHD in botany claimed the romans were growing 500 feet tall sunslowers, youd want him to show you his phd in roman history....
I've started a discussion at Talk:Taiwanese_identity#Overlap_with_Taiwanese_People to discuss how we might disentangle the Taiwanese People and Taiwanese Identity articles. I believe they have some overlap issues. Readin ( talk) 14:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I think jeremy lin is an important taiwanese person. shouldn't he be inside? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.235.73 ( talk) 00:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Aren't Taiwanese are Chinese? I do not understand, Citizenship of ROC are Chinese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.13.42.45 ( talk) 07:19, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
During Japanese rule, westerners referred to Taiwanese as Chinese, such as this 1920 National Geographic Magazine: "The bulk of the population of Formosa is, of course, Chinese.". It should be mentioned in the article that westerners still perceived Taiwanese as ethnic Chinese even decades after Japan took over. Rajmaan ( talk) 04:06, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women.
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/
http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html
有唐山公,無唐山媽
"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false
14:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Taiwanese people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "auto":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 08:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Taiwanese_Canadians
That page has the number of over 94,000 people, which seems much more probable than the current 556,000 people figure here on this page. With the source originally linked being dead, should that be edited to match the smaller figure? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChineseToTheBone ( talk • contribs) 06:30, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
Shintaro Ishihara stated this:
「日本統治下にあった在日朝鮮・韓国人や台湾人を指す言葉として敗戦直後に使われ、独立民族としての地位をあいまいにする差別語とされている。」
It's just 'Taiwanese' and not 'Chinese of Taiwanese origin'. Really, who writes or creates phrases like this to brainwash others? This is a rhetorical question, so no need to answer it.
On a side note, support de jure independence for Taiwan! ROC is a lost cause. Go for the Republic of Taiwan!
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Hey can we get rid of that cursed tag?! It is hideous. This article is a work in progress, and we are all working to make it NPOV. Let's have faith in each other's good faith.. <did that make sense?> Get rid of the term "ethnic groups" in the lede if it makes it more digestible. As for other sections... Their Day Will Come! Judgment Draweth Nigh! Ling.Nut 03:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Please note that the act of inserting the NPOV tag itself is NPOV. It is an assertion of a POV.
This is only acceptable if editors take the time to raise specific points which can be addressed. This is perfectly acceptable; compromises can be worked out here on Talk. I will remove the NPOV tag unless someone takes the time to raise specific points which can be addressed in a constructive manner. Ling.Nut 15:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Shhh! Don't tell anybody, but this page has become quite stable. Maowang 07:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I think for a while someone was having a big problem with it, so to make nice it was in the prior form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.140.7.29 ( talk) 09:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I totally acknowledge the mixing between Hoklo, Hakka, and pingpu peoples. I am also aware that Hoklo came from two cities Zhangzhou and Quanzhou. I also believe some single Chinese came from Chaozhou to Taiwan and mixed with others, because there is a city in Pingtung County that has the same name. Teochiu and Hoklo are very similar. I bring this up because I know many Taiwanese who claim to have an ancestor from Guangdong, and that ancestor is not a Hakka. I believe that it is highly possible that any Teochiu rapidly assimilated with Hoklo speakers. Does anyone know?
User:Dlc_73 13:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Taiwanese in Korea number 20,000? They are not Taiwanese. ( 90 percent of them are from shandong province they settled in Korean peninsula during 1950 Korean War). It was during 1980 President Chun Du Hwan era that majority of " Oversease" chinese began to adopt Taiwanese passport. ( 80 percent of them migrated to USA or to Taiwan). The actual population number is less then 20,000. Actual figure is 5-10 thousand the most. Plus they are not Taiwanese. Majority of them just say they are " overseas chinese" or just chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.63.207.12 ( talk) 07:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The section "Definitions of Taiwanese" doesn't actually contain any definitions of "Taiwanese". Instead it contains a two paragraph essay on the meaning of "group identity". No similar section is provided in the articles for "Japanese people", "Chinese people" or "American people" (I didn't check any other groups of people). The essay seems not quite neutral, though it has citations.
Readin 04:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The description of the Japanese era starts with "In the face of the Japanese colonial hierarchy, the people of Taiwan were faced with the unequal binary relationship between colonizer and colonized. This duality between 'one' and 'other'...". This seems very biased against the Japanese era, especially when compared to description given for the Kuomintang era which also had an unequal relationship which many would consider a colonizer-colonized relationship. The wording of the Japanese era should be toned down. Readin 04:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure there are books that tells about the KMT era having an unequal relationship.-- Jerry 12:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I had a look at the sources cited to support the figures of US and Canadian migrants in Taiwan and noted that the sources don't acutally support the figures. The Chinese headings say "the current population of Taiwanese migrants in the US (or Canada, as the case may be), 2000", but not the other way around as the article seems to suggest.
I think the figures should be removed as the sources cited are incorrect.-- Pyl ( talk) 14:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I find the definition highly dubious and there are sources offering conflicting definitions for this term.
Please go to talk:native Taiwanese for discussion, and let's see if we can have some resolution on this term. If no reliable sources are provided to show that 'native Taiwanese' is an unambiguous term and the definition in this article is undisputed, I will remove the term from the article. When that happens, I will leave 'benshengren' in the article as it is apparently defined without much contention.-- pyl ( talk) 13:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by the assertion that Standard Mandarin is the main language Taiwanese people speak rather than Taiwanese Mandarin since "Taiwanese Mandarin" seems to be by definition the version of Mandarin that people in Taiwan speak. Readin ( talk) 15:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I think you both got the definition of "Standard Mandarin" wrong. It is the officially regulated language by both the PRC and the ROC. They have slightly different standards but they are both called "Standard Mandarin". Then in Taiwan, due to the political separation from mainland China and influence from English, Japanese as well as Taiwanese Minnan, there are usages of Mandarin which is unique to Taiwan, that usage is called "Taiwanese Mandarin". Taiwanese Mandarin is not a language by itself. It is a dialect of Standard Mandarin. "Taiwanese Mandarin" is also a term describing the thick Min Nan accent or mispronunciation of some people when they speak in Mandarin. That's why "Taiwanese Mandarin" can also be considered a derogatory term. As the Taiwanese Mandarin article points out, Taiwanese Mandarin is essentially a series of Taiwanese usage and slang.
"bopomofo" (phonetics) and pinyin are two pronunciation tools for Standard Mandarin. Mainland China uses phonetics too but later in school, the pupils will learn pinyin. In Taiwan's case, the pupils learn phonetics and that's it. The pronunciation tools are simply roads to the final destination, which is the correct pronunciation of Standard Mandarin.
Readin, your "simply don't believe" is pretty pointless. I have explained and give you things that you can do to find out the information. You refuse to, then just give me one of those "I simply don't believes". Perhaps, you are being too arrogant? I can also say I simply don't believe that Taiwanese Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan. Go to Taiwan and speak to the people and see how much Taiwanese Mandarin they speak. Perhaps if you pay attention, you will note that they essentially speak Standard Mandarin. If you have so much free time, go change all cases of "English" to "American English" for the US and leave Mandarin along. At least, you speak English and know enough about it.
Standard Mandarin is not just a dialect of Mandarin Chinese. Standard Mandarin is the regulated national/common language. Mandarin Chinese (in Wikipedia's case) refers to the dialects, including the Beijing dialect. Have you been to Beijing and spoken to them? From my experience, some of them pronounce words differently from the pronunciation as dictated by Standard Mandarin. But it is coherent. My experience is actually mirrored in the Mandarin Chinese and Beijing dialect articles.
I feel like I have been retyping what has been said in the articles. Perhaps you want to read Standard Mandarin Taiwanese Mandarin and Beijing dialect properly before arguing further.-- pyl ( talk) 03:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I am Taiwanese American. I learned to speak Mandarin as a child in Taiwan. I speak Taiwanese better than I speak Mandarin because that is what my parents spoke at home. I have been back to Taiwan, interacted with many people from Taiwan in the U.S., people from China in the U.S., and I have also visited China several times. I can tell you that there is a clear difference in the accent, style and tone of someone who learned to speak Mandarin in Taiwan as opposed to someone who learned to speak Mandarin in China. People in China were able to identify me as Taiwanese as soon as they heard me speak Mandarin. It is not because of slang and it is definitely still proper or “standard” Mandarin. The tone used by those who learned Mandarin in Taiwan is much sweeter, nicer, less harsh sounding than the Mandarin taught in China. There is also a kind of Mandarin that is improper, mixed with slang, and possibly derogatory typically spoken by people in Taiwan residing in rural areas where Mandarin is rarely spoken. I grew up listening to my parents, tv shows filmed in Taiwan, and movies filmed in Taiwan poke fun at people (mostly elders who did not go to school during the KMT era and therefore, did not learn Mandarin in a formal setting like school) who were unable to speak proper Mandarin, unable to accurately pronounce certain words correctly and would often throw in Taiwanese words because they did not know the Mandarin equivalent. I think all of you are correct in a way with each of your assessments. Bottom line, there is a difference in the way Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan v. China and there is also improperly spoken Mandarin spoken by those in Taiwan who are not as fluent in Mandarin. Yes, sometimes it can be seen as derogatory but sometimes it is just accepted because often times, it is spoken by the older genders who spoke fluent Japanese instead, having attended school during th Japanese era. What many people fail to realize is that Mandarin was not spoken, taught, or ever used in Taiwan until the KMT forced it on the Taiwanese people with martial law in 1949. Mandarin is a fairly new dialect in Taiwan and unless you attended school after the KMT forced Mandarin onto the Taiwanese people in school, you only spoke Taiwanese, Hakka, and/or Japanese. Wendychan73 ( talk) 03:04, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
i removed the content that was sourced with Dr. Lin's claim that southern chinese are pure yueh.
first of all, she has no PHD in history, she is a geneticist, yet her entire report does not mention a single result of her tests. it is a statement claiming that northern chinese are "pure" chinese, and southern chinese yueh which is in fact laughable. she is a geneticist, not a historian. for example, if a person wit a PHD in botany claimed the romans were growing 500 feet tall sunslowers, youd want him to show you his phd in roman history....
I've started a discussion at Talk:Taiwanese_identity#Overlap_with_Taiwanese_People to discuss how we might disentangle the Taiwanese People and Taiwanese Identity articles. I believe they have some overlap issues. Readin ( talk) 14:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I think jeremy lin is an important taiwanese person. shouldn't he be inside? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.235.73 ( talk) 00:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Aren't Taiwanese are Chinese? I do not understand, Citizenship of ROC are Chinese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.13.42.45 ( talk) 07:19, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
During Japanese rule, westerners referred to Taiwanese as Chinese, such as this 1920 National Geographic Magazine: "The bulk of the population of Formosa is, of course, Chinese.". It should be mentioned in the article that westerners still perceived Taiwanese as ethnic Chinese even decades after Japan took over. Rajmaan ( talk) 04:06, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women.
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/
http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html
有唐山公,無唐山媽
"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false
14:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Taiwanese people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "auto":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 08:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Taiwanese_Canadians
That page has the number of over 94,000 people, which seems much more probable than the current 556,000 people figure here on this page. With the source originally linked being dead, should that be edited to match the smaller figure? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChineseToTheBone ( talk • contribs) 06:30, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
Shintaro Ishihara stated this:
「日本統治下にあった在日朝鮮・韓国人や台湾人を指す言葉として敗戦直後に使われ、独立民族としての地位をあいまいにする差別語とされている。」
It's just 'Taiwanese' and not 'Chinese of Taiwanese origin'. Really, who writes or creates phrases like this to brainwash others? This is a rhetorical question, so no need to answer it.
On a side note, support de jure independence for Taiwan! ROC is a lost cause. Go for the Republic of Taiwan!