![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
Firestar - This article is weighted completely wrongly.
Taoism - As I said before there is hardly any mention at all of Taoism, in fact this should be right at the top of the page. Taoism is quite simply the basis of T'ai Chi, you have the yin-yang diagram so why isn't there more mention of it? Okay there is some discussion of yin and yang principles but you know that, I know it, the average person however will not make the connections with Taoism and the other related fields of Taoist study.
Chi - Secondly you have hardly mentioned the fact that T'ai Chi is not a physical form of exercise but is more closely related to Chi Gung. What about the micro-cosmic energy circulation and energy meridians and energy centres? T'ai Chi is not based upon physics or western science, I think you have confused it with aerobics! To talk about T'ai Chi without mentioning Chi is absurd. Just sticking a link in is not enough, this needs much more in depth discussion. Okay T'ai Chi is related to Martial Arts that much is obvious but you are giving completely the wrong impression here, westerners will think it's Karate.
Softness and Internal principles - T'ai Chi is a soft style and is not about fighting but about learning the skills to avoid fighting. Where are the discussions about internal style principles? Nothing! There is no mention of the principles of softness with regard to going with the flow of energy and yielding as opposed to the hard style principle of blocking force, this is the key to softness not how relaxed the muscles are altho of course this is also important from the standpoint of energy flow.
Lineage - This lineage diagram is absolute nonsense. Anyone with even a basic understanding of Taoist philosophy will know that lineage is not a Taoist concept but derives from Confucian ancestor worship. T'ai Chi masters are not ranked according to pieces of paper or even fighting skills but in their knowledge of Taoism and it's practical application as a teaching method of the way (Tao). In fact true Taoists would never dream of comparing themselves with others or ranking styles according to which is best. Why have this ridiculous lineage diagram which no one at all will be interested in? it is redundant. It is also extremely boring, please remove it at once.
Pre and Post Revolution - There needs to be some mention of the fact that many Taoists were exiled or forbidden to practise their T'ai Chi and related studies with the advent of Communism. Many Taoist masters had to go overseas and take their T'ai Chi to other countries. Have you seen 'Pushing Hands' by Ang Lee? Maybe you should. The point has to be made that Taoism and T'ai Chi practise was actively suppressed and that many documents and lineages not to mention people were destroyed so no accurate history of T'ai Chi can be compiled. Also T'ai Chi was often kept secret and not taught to the public so just looking at public records of those styles that have popularized themselves is not particularly relevant.
Do you do T'ai Chi Firestar? Let me guess, you do Yang style T'ai Chi. This article is far too heavily weighted towards Yang style and their attempts to promote their style through documentation and lineage. Get a life guys, no one is interested in this. Please can you stop censoring this article and find something better to do with your life? As for the rest of you let's hear something more interesting about Chi energy and Taoist philosophy and enough talk about redundant lineage documents. -- Chuangzu 18:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Chuangzu, I'm sorry that you are disappointed with the article, although your comments make me wonder if you've even read it. Let's address them point by point, shall we?
Well, we have: T'ai Chi Ch'uan is seen by many of its schools as a variety of Taoism, and it does seemingly incorporate many Taoist principles into its practice (see below). and: "Various people have offered different explanations for the name T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Some have said: 'In terms of self-cultivation, one must train from a state of movement towards a state of stillness. T'ai Chi comes about through the balance of yin and yang. In terms of the art of attack and defense then, in the context of the changes of full and empty, one is constantly internally latent, not outwardly expressive, as if the yin and yang of T'ai Chi have not yet divided apart.' Others say: 'Every movement of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is based on circles, just like the shape of a T'ai Chi symbol. Therefore, it is called T'ai Chi Ch'uan.' Both explanations are quite reasonable, especially the second, which is more complete." and: As the name T'ai Chi Ch'uan is held to be derived from the T'ai Chi symbol, the taijitu or t'ai chi t'u (太極圖, pinyin tàijítú), commonly known in the West as the " yin-yang" diagram, T'ai Chi Ch'uan techniques are said therefore to physically and energetically balance yin (receptive) and yang (active) principles: "From ultimate softness comes ultimate hardness." and: Lao Tzu provided the archetype for this in the Tao Te Ching when he wrote, "The soft and the pliable will defeat the hard and strong." and: When tracing T'ai Chi Ch'uan's formative influences to Taoist and Buddhist monasteries, one has little more to go on than legendary tales from a modern historical perspective, but T'ai Chi Ch'uan's practical connection to and dependence upon the theories of Sung dynasty Neo-Confucianism (a conscious synthesis of Taoist, Buddhist and Confucian traditions, esp. the teachings of Mencius) is readily apparent to its practitioners., so you see we have quite a few mentions of and links to Taoism. Not everyone agrees that T'ai Chi is exclusively Taoist, however, the way it is taught by the Chinese T'ai Chi families also incorporates other traditions, such as Confucian didacticism and Buddhist pacific values, "kind-heartedness". Also, this is an article about T'ai Chi, not Taoism (even though we talk in several places how T'ai Chi depends on Taoist principles). If people want more about Taoism, they can always go to our Taoism article.
There is: The slow, repetitive work involved in that process is said to gently increase and open the internal circulation ( breath, body heat, blood, lymph, peristalsis, etc.). Over time, proponents say, this enhancement becomes a lasting effect, a direct reversal of the constricting physical effects of stress on the human body and: Breathing exercises; nei kung (內功 nèigōng) or, more commonly, qigong or ch'i kung (氣功 qìgōng) to develop qi or ch'i (氣 qì) or "breath energy" in coordination with physical movement and post standing or combinations of the two. These were formerly taught only to disciples as a separate, complementary training system. In the last 50 years they have become more well known to the general public. That seems pretty clear to me. Not every T'ai Chi school has its own qigong, some add outside systems, others don't do qigong at all. Again, if people want more about qigong, they are directed to qigong.
Again, I'm wondering if you've even read the article, as there is: T'ai Chi Ch'uan is considered a soft style martial art, an art applied with as complete a relaxation or "softness" in the musculature as possible, to distinguish its theory and application from that of the hard martial art styles which use a degree of tension in the muscles. and: T'ai Chi Ch'uan as physical training is characterized by its requirement for the use of leverage through the joints based on coordination in relaxation rather than muscular tension in order to neutralize or initiate physical attacks. and the focus meditation and subsequent calmness cultivated by the meditative aspect of T'ai Chi is seen as necessary to maintain optimum health (in the sense of effectively maintaining stress relief or homeostasis) and in order to use it as a soft style martial art. and: a slow sequence of movements which emphasise a straight spine, relaxed breathing and a natural range of motion; the second being different styles of pushing hands or t'ui shou (推手) for training "stickiness" and sensitivity in the reflexes through various motions from the forms in concert with a training partner in order to learn leverage, timing, coordination and positioning when interacting with another. Pushing hands is seen as necessary not only for training the self-defense skills of a soft style such as T'ai Chi by demonstrating the forms' movement principles experientially, but also it is said to improve upon the level of conditioning provided by practice of the solo forms by increasing the workload on students while they practise those movement principles. and: In a fight, if one uses hardness to resist violent force then both sides are certain to be injured, at least to some degree. Such injury, according to T'ai Chi theory, is a natural consequence of meeting brute force with brute force. The collision of two like forces, yang with yang, is known as "double-weighted" in T'ai Chi terminology. Instead, students are taught not to fight or resist an incoming force, but to meet it in softness and "stick" to it, following its motion while remaining in physical contact until the incoming force of attack exhausts itself or can be safely redirected, the result of meeting yang with yin. Done correctly, achieving this yin/yang or yang/yin balance in combat (and, by extension, other areas of one's life) is known as being "single-weighted" and is a primary goal of T'ai Chi Ch'uan training. and: T'ai Chi's martial aspect relies on sensitivity to the opponent's movements and centre of gravity dictating appropriate responses. Effectively affecting or "capturing" the opponent's centre of gravity immediately upon contact is trained as the primary goal of the martial T'ai Chi student, and from there all other technique can follow with seeming effortlessness. The alert calmness required to achieve the necessary sensitivity is acquired over thousands of hours of first yin (slow, repetitive, meditative, low impact) and then later adding yang ("realistic," active, fast, high impact) martial training; forms, pushing hands and sparring. So you see that not only do we mention soft style principles many times, in this and in the pushing hands article, we explain them.
Actually, I didn't put it in the article originally (so it is interesting to at least one other editor), but I have added some names to it over the last year or so. Its content is very well documented from different sources and covers successive generations of the primary families that have been recognised as representative of T'ai Chi by 3 successive Chinese govts. and the overwhelming majority of the Chinese martial arts community. The only change to it I would make now would be to expand it, as we are missing too many Chen family members. The teacher-disciple relationship has been normative in traditional Chinese education for thousands of years. Your assertion that no one will be interested in it is unjustified. I'm sorry that your school isn't on there, but there seems to be no independent documentation of your style's lineage in the public domain.
And again, we plainly comment on that with: ...because many of the family T'ai Chi Ch'uan teachers had either moved out of China or had been forced to stop teaching after the Communist regime was established in 1949.... Also, members of the Wu family, the Yang family and the martial arts documentation of the Kuomintang and Jing Wu Men whom they worked with moved to Hong Kong and Taiwan in 1949. As well, documents of Wu Yu-hsiang's lineage and the Qing dynasty military records in the Forbidden City (written in Manchu) and the 19th century gazeteers of Yongnian county survived the cultural revolution. So there is enough documentation to write a fairly reliable history of the principle players back to 1800 or so. Before that, there are many stories, but it becomes less verifiable.
Well, you are wrong in your guess, I don't do the Yang style (I respect them notwithstanding), but I have studied T'ai Chi for 21 years (two of those years in China) and taught it now for 15, 13 of those teaching years as a disciple of another of the T'ai Chi families. I've fought lei tai and san shou using T'ai Chi exclusively and I've also been fortunate enough to learn tui na and nei gong as used by the traditional T'ai Chi teachers I stayed with in Hong Kong. If by "interesting" you mean speculation or original research, that isn't what an encyclopaedia is for. See Wikipedia:what Wikipedia is not. While I'm not averse to adding new info about Taoism, etc., it has to done well, and I see no reason to remove anything. I have answered every one of your criticisms, and after considering them I again can only conclude that you haven't read any of the article beyond the lineage chart. Your comments about "get a life" put you on the edge of our no personal attacks policy, which I suggest you read thoroughly along with the rest of the T'ai Chi article before we continue our discussions. -- Fire Star 21:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
The titling this article seems weird. I'm not trying to rehash the old Wade-Giles/pinyin debate. However, even in Wade-Giles, 太極拳 is T'ai Chi Ch'üan not Tai Chi Chuan (which looks like it might mean 帶雞傳 or something). Not only that, but we begin the article T'ai Chi Ch'uan, which is confusing because it differs from the title. Can we come up with something a little more consistent?
Also, I'm kind of thinking "Tai Chi Chuan" should not be capitalised. - Nat Kraus e 08:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Are all the alternates redirects to the current article? That should take care of anyone having trouble finding the article. RJFJR 18:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved contribution from User:Wintran downward.
So, I was thinking about the above for awhile and it kept seeming that there was something odd about it. Eventually, I realised that we seem to be assuming that one of these various spellings is the common name for taijiquan in English. But, of course, it's not ... the common name for taijiquan is "tai chi". I've never really heard anyone call it "tai chi chuan". How does one even pronounce "tai chi chuan"? (I know how to say "tai chi", and it's not the same as 太极). Why don't we move this article to tai chi? Bear in mind that we are normally stuck using the form of the name used in the title throughout the article (i.e., referring to it as "tai chi" or "taijiquan" repeatedly in the article), but, if we get around that, then we have to decide what we are going to call it instead. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 22:27, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
(Please don't hit me, Wintran, but I could not find your valuable contribution at first. Therefore I moved it downward to fit in timeline. -- JohJak2 15:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC))
I'm confused over the latest move from Tai Chi Chuan to T'ai Chi Ch'üan. According to the Google test and my own experience, the most common spelling is "Tai Chi Chuan" followed by "Taijiquan". "T'ai Chi Ch'üan" is romanized using the dated Wade-Giles romanization system, and though "Tai Chi Chuan" is a simplified version of this romanization, the latter has been adopted by the English language as the most common spelling. If we do decide that we favor correct romanization over common usage, "Taijiquan" would seem like the correct main article, as it's both more frequently used than "T'ai Chi Ch'üan" and uses the more modern Pinyin romanization. However, to avoid going against Wikipedia:Naming conventions, my proposal is that we change the title back to "Tai Chi Chuan", as this is the most common English term among non-scholars. Wintran 14:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
So, how about moving this article back to Tai Chi Chuan? This includes moving categories and such. Wintran 14:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Tai Chi Chuan is fine with me. I notice in de interwikilinks that it is about half-half Taijiquan or Tai Chi Chuan with a few stragglers. The google-most-used argument is good enough for me. JohJak2 17:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I took the liberty of performing the move to Tai Chi Chuan. If someone still objects, continue discussions here. - Wintran ( talk) 23:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed some double redirects and already fixed a couple before noticing that the recent move is within the last day. Hopefully the name can be quickly settled and then the double redirects also fixed.
I would have thought Tai Chi (with or without capitals) was the most suitable name, as this is what it is commonly known as in English; however I'll leave it to others to work it out. -- Singkong2005 04:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Apparently there is some relationship between tai chi and the chi/ qi life-force concept, but it is not explained in this article. Is that relationship why "chi" appears in the in the name of this art, or is that a linguistic coincidence? (How did the art get its name, anyway?) -- Beland 20:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, Chineese is only a written language, so when we talk about pronounciation we should talk about Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. /Kamil (Ruok) 03.06.2006 (06=June)
The pinyin in this article is all over the place. Either use wade-giles or pinyin and stick to it everywhere.
Too much focus on references to certain commercial organisations in the west.
I have tried to remove some links that are too parochial.
Also removed some references to weapons that are not part of mainstream tai chi (i.e. wip/dart/3sectioned staff)
Recent history: Tai chi is being promoted within china recently to try and counter the cult of falun gong.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielpoon ( talk • contribs)
I think that the reference given for this is lacking in that the entry suggests it might rise to the level of a pilot study in the generally understood conventional medicine/research sense, and the cite is simply an interview in which, in my understanding, there's a bit of anecdotal reportage and the possibility of a pilot study forthcoming. Am I missing something? 24.199.71.163 23:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't we say that the healing part of Tai Chi is acutally Chi Kung? People generally do not understand the difference between the two.
Kamil (Ruok) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruok ( talk • contribs)
Who is this annoynmous joker who keeps repeatedly adding the "Free TV channel" link (see history)? Can we block him some how? Can we lock the page for a while until he gives up the spam? Triponi 10:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
We need to protect the page agian, that anon spammer with the "free tv channel" is back. VanTucky 21:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
We really could use a separate article on Zhaobao style. It is pretty well known and has serious practitioners, especially in China. Unfortunately, I don't know enough of its history to do it justice. Anyone else know anything about it? -- Fire Star 火星 14:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Tai Chi Magazine has at least one issue with an interview with a Zhaobao master. I might have a hard copy somewhere I can reference. VanTucky 00:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I think there should be an internal link to Chin Na in the See Also category. I'd do it myself but I'm a new user and I am not even really sure how. maybe one of the admins can do it. VanTucky 19:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)VanTucky
I deleted the internal link to Waterbender, its too obscure. Olaus M 13:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
About two years ago, I found this website on taichi which offered videos of various forms (24-form, 48-form, etc). I think it offered still photos as well. To put it simply, I cant find it anymore, do any of you guys know where it is? -Guest
Tai Chi America's website also has several form demonstration videos in a different format than realplayer. VanTucky 23:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The short article Taiji dates to September, 2003. It appears to cover the same ground as this one. Take a look and see if you agree that it should be merged here. -- Blainster 17:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Although Tai Chi is largely based on the philosophy Taoism, isn't its meditation based on Zen Buddhist meditation except in a more moving form? Zachorious 08:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't the Shaolin Monks (whose Shallow Temple is a Zen Buddhist temple) practice Tai Chi as well, or is it a combination of many forms of kung fu and tai chi? Zachorious 15:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
So what are the similarities and differences between Buddhist and Taoist meditation in that respect? Is it the moving in Tao or are they pretty much the same except for movement? Zachorious 03:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
From my perspective, FireStar is pretty much correct. For general purposes is can be summarized that many physical/ethical practices of TaiJi come from Buddhist and Confucian sources. The mental/meditative elements of TaiJi are more akin to Taoist practices (having participated in Taoist religous ceremony, chanting and meditation myself). But again, when describing China and the products of its culture (like Taiji) one must remember that the line between Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism is blurred. So for the article, its better just to discuss what the practices of TaiJi players are instead of discussing what may or may not be their origins. it also tends to start frivolous arguements VanTucky 19:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The {{ChineseText}} overlaps the text in my IE 6 browser. Yonidebest 22:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Tai Chi Chuan Secrets Most modern teachers teach the form alone, but this cannot lead to a mastery of Tai Chi Chuan. This is the legacy of teaching the art to the royal family of the Qing Dynasty.
In addition to form, one has to learn the verbal secrets, called kou juie. This is used to coordinate the psychosomatic aspects of the art. Another secret is the movement of the chi, and how to coordinate it with the form. This involves using "locks" to control its flow, as dissipated chi is of not much use. Finally, application of the form is rarely taught; the student has to figure that out, and this takes years.
I just want to say bravo Firestar. Your recent work to make the Tai Chi family of articles gold-star quality has been greatly appreciated. I'd give you a barnstar, but I have absolutely no clue how. and as far as this balderdash about using verbal secrets as psychosomatic aids, I just have to say this person is the kind of New Age nutcase that makes skeptics discard taiji and qigong into the dungheap of superstitious nonsense. its an internal art, which means that chi moves through your body (either with or without intention) internally. the idea that saying a set of magic incantations is the heart of neigong is absurd. VanTucky 19:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
We certainly don't want to imply that there are nutcases at Wikipedia. I think (I can't speak for him, so this is a guess) that VanTucky is reacting to the dozens if not hundreds of bad T'ai Chi teachers he has seen, too. I put it down to a case of misunderstanding and would ask that we all work to get these articles to A class rating. I have mentioned, if only obliquely, here and at the Chinese martial arts article that bad or incomplete teaching (same thing, really) does harm to the reputations of our arts. We can have stylistic differences here, but we can all agree that we want good articles, especially compared to some debates I've seen here over the years I think we have a very good chance. Regards, -- Fire Star 火星 02:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Firestar is correct in his comment about why I reacted the way I did. it seems that simple misunderstanding is the culprit for any inappropriate content. to address whatever pertinence I can derive from your quotations Cottonball...
about advanced technology (or in this case, physical technique) seeming miraculous and the necessity for imagination in pushing the boundaries of a given field: there are many things about advanced taiji practice that can seem nearly magical to the untrained eye or that have little to no scientific proof but can be reproduced by anyone given time and effort. such as the ability of someone to push over the last person standing in a connected line while leaving all others before him standing. I'm not sure if what you mean to suggest by those quotes, but what I glean from them indirectly is that you are trying to say: dont be so sure of everything, what some have called impossible has been done. well, thats very true. but I think Arthur C. Clarke would agree with me in saying that just because some new and wonderful ability is professed doesnt stifle the requirment for the same simple empirical proof that we require of anything else. VanTucky 19:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
somewhat anonymous poster here, just wanted to point something out. Towards the bottom in the "Health benefits" section, it says that taijiquan burns more calories than surfing and almost as much as downhill skiing, when according to the supplied calorie burning chart link, neither is true.
i have failed this for now. The article, for the exception of the medical benefits section, is not referenced well, and needs citations. A prose cleanup could defintely be of benefit, however. Clean it up, get some citations, then relist it. -- badlydrawnjeff talk 02:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS to move page at this time. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Tai Chi Chuan → Taijiquan — The name of the activity, because it originates from China, is actually 太极拳. The current standard representation of these chinese characters uses the pinyin system, which, when written, it is Tàijíquán or often simplified as Taijiquan. This complies with Wikipedia:Naming conventions ~ Feureau 23:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you could explain how Taijiquan complies with WP:NC? WP:NC(UE) says the English should be used and if there isn't an english name, then Pinyin can be used. Also, WP:NC(CN) says the most common name should be used. In this case Tai Chi is the most common name. I'm not seeing how Taijiquan complies with WP:NC, but if you can provide an explanation, I might be persuaded to not oppose the move. Thanks! -- Bobblehead 01:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess the point to consider is whether translation accuracy or the popularity if usage is more important. For the most part, only those that already aquainted with taiji are going to search under that version, and (in America at least) tai chi chuan is the accepted dictionary version not taijiquan. But personally, every Chinese speaking person I know says that taijiquan is the correct romanization, and that it also better represents proper pronunciation than tai chi chuan. VanTucky 03:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
well, I disagree about the infobox. it does a crap job of explaining pronuncition. But I'm not sure which version youre pulling for when you disagree with my arguments JohJak. Do you oppose or support? VanTucky 21:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
oh I see, that sounds helpful. but the pronunciation guides in articles (when they appear) are often more confusing than helpful. anyway, seems that everyone opposes for the most part. VanTucky 03:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Tai Chi is a martial art form that utilizes both the fist and the external weapon. Chuan is the word that denotes the use of hands as weapons. It is incorrect to call Tai Chi "Tai Chi Chuan" unless you are talking specificaly about weapons-free forms.
No, Tai Chi by itself denotes a daoist philosophical concept which literally means the most elemental separation of yin and yang. Chuan at the end of tai chi means "fist" with the connotation of shadow-boxing and differentiates the tai chi concept from the tai chi martial art. You can shadow box with weapons. Dropping the chuan is like using a nickname it is informal and for convenience. Put it this way, if you were correct about this we would have to go back and correct the names of around 1000 chinese styles. Mlmalone 20:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
1. It is not necessarily true that most scholars agree that taijiquan began with the Chen family. Taijiquan's history, in fact, is in some dispute. For many years, Zhang San Feng was (and still is by many people) regarded as the founder of taijiquan. In recent years the Chen family has laid claim as the founders of taijiquan. A third arguement states that no one individual or family created taijiquan but, rather, the art evolved through the centuries from several different sources.
The arguement that Zhang San Feng was the founder of taijiquan is based on his authorship of the first of the tai chi classics. Scholars dispute the authenticity of this claim, however, pointing out that others could have just as easily authored the essay. Add to that, some historical suggestions that Zhang San Feng may have been nearly 200 years old and it is not hard to see why this story is often dismissed.
The Chen family's claim to authorship of taijiquan depends on how you define taijiquan. If, for example, you define it as an art utilizing the taiji principles as outlined in the taiji classics, then there are documented arts in China as early as the 7th century that fit this definition (see: "The Dao of Taijiquan" by Jou Tsung Hwa). Further, many of the guiding principles and energies of the art (chan si jing, fa jing, etc.) also predate Chen style taijiquan and are found in older arts including xingyiquan. Ba fa (ward off, roll back, press, push, etc.) are also found in arts older than Chen style taijiquan and many of the postures found in Chen style exist in martial art styles predating Chen Wanting.
I would like to suggest that the author offer the arguements on all sides and allow the reader to decide.
2. The author cites only two key components to training - solo form and push hands. No where is mentioned the most crucial aspect of taijiquan training - zhan zhuang (standing training). Most all traditional taijiquan schools begin students with zhan zhuang. Standing training serves many purposes. First, it helps practitioners memorize proper structure in static postures. Secondly, it teaches students to find and maintain complete muscle relaxation (song). Third, it trains concentration and intention (yi) through utilization of advanced mental exercises designed to facilitate contraindication within the musculature. The end result is a process that eliminates muscle tension while at the same time increasing strength, speed, reflexes and reaction time. Once this state can be maintained in a static position, the next stage is to introduce this state into movement. This is where tai chi form comes in. Perhaps most importantly, without the inclusion of standing training in the beginning stages, it is much more difficult to learn to produce and maintain peng jing, a key energy in taijiquan.
I would like to suggest that the author researches the subject and append their entry to include zhan zhuang. For further study, some of the more advanced standing techniques can be found in Yiquan, a martial system founded by the legendary master Wang Xiangzhai.
Sincerely,
Jim Donnelly, Director, American Society of Internal Arts, www.AmericanSocietyOfInternalArts.org
HANDS FOLDED IN RESPECT —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jdonnelly001 ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
Hi Fire Star,
Zhan zhuang is, unfortunately, a poorly understood topic. Post standing is a multi-purpose tool, not one single practice. The posting referred to in the neigong section of wikipedia refers to the use of standing as a form of qi development. While this type of exercise may be found in taiji schools, this is not the same zhan zhuang used for structural training. Likewise, zhan zhuang is not the same as deep standing for 30 minutes in postures. That type of standing is designed primarily for developing leg conditioning and balance. Nor is it simply a form of meditation as one usually thinks of meditation. Yiquan probably comes closest to describing the old methods of standing training, although some argue that, as practiced today, even Yiquan has been watered down a bit. As for Yang Zhenduo, despite being the head of the Yang family, he doesn't necessarily speak for taijiquan masters everywhere. He's just one of hundreds with a single viewpoint. Good Holidays!
Jim Donnelly, Hands Folded In Respect
While you certainly show credible knowledge and sources mr. Donnelly, I have to disagree with you. The majority of credible scholars place Zhang San Feng in the same context as such chinese cultural hero-founders as the famous general Yue Fei. That is to say, most likely a real person at some point, but who has been mythologized enormously. Zhang San Feng is not only credited as the founder by taiji practitioners, but by just about anyone practicing an art with internal characteristics. While the idea that the Chens are the first and sole originators of taiji principles or the first incarnation of the ba fa is totally inane, it does not make a semi-mythical character in chinese folk tales out to be the sole originator. like you said, taiji is really the work of hundreds of individuals throughout the generations contributing to its development. and just to repeat FireStar's arguement...while I personally agree about the importance of standing meditation, it is by a huge margin NOT the core taiji practice in the west or east among current practitioners. though regretable, we can all regcognize that the days of students spending weeks/months only learning zhan zhuang are over. Just look at the advent of the multitude of short forms, people have neither the time nor the inclination to spend that much time on zhan zhuang as a core/founding practice. We are not going to return to some "golden age" of taiji where people revere zhan zhuang practice. VanTucky 20:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I was just considering the idea of expanding the number of tai chi stubs like the single whip stub. a group of stub explaining the postures of tai chi found in every style (single whip, grasp bird's tail etc.) and detailing the differences in execution and application. anyone want to collaborate? VanTucky 01:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I just discovered the pages for the so-called Tchoung style tai chi. Not disputing that this guy taught his own version of tai chi which was obviously Yang influenced. But his students claim he learned from a much older generation of Yang teachers than Yang Chengfu, this and other claims by the people who wrote the page (his students of course) allude to the Tchoung style being "original" Yang style that is superior to the lineage of all other Yang teachers. Historical truth not withstanding, wikipedia has strict NPOV and if we dont let people write their own bios, then we sure as hell cant let his students lord it over the article of their "style" claiming to be the pure standard bearers of Yang teachings. I suggest the article for a serious overhaul, maybe even deletion. VanTucky 20:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I've revamped them for npov. this makes them okay for inclusion I think, though having not a single indedpendent citation, they are still on shaky ground. VanTucky 21:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I've moved that the contents of Tchoung Ta Chen style tai chi be merged with the Yang style page. VanTucky 21:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The following two articles link to tai chi, should there not also be reverse links here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguazhang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X%C3%ADngy%C3%ACqu%C3%A1n
Currently there seems to be no mention of these two associated arts that are frequently taught alongside tai chi. (CJE) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.169.45.170 ( talk) 12:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
first of sorry but i dont know how to input chinese yet. second, the quan or chuan in tai chi chuan or taiji quan does mean fist when used by itself. however in martial arts it connotes "boxing" to distinguish itself from just taiji, which is just a philosophical theory. Almost all Chinese martial arts have a quan at the end to denote it being a "boxing" style and not just a family name. However, quan or chuan in itself means fist.-- Blckavnger 15:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, Tai Chi Chuan is in fact one of the forms of Tai Chi, not Tai Chi itself. I have changed the redirect that led "Tai Chi" to this page. If anyone is interested about the subject I did a quick search on google and found an ok site about it. [1] All the best, Whiskey in the Jar 15:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
To clerify: Tai Chi Chuan is the Martial Art which can further be broken down into many substyles under the overall heading. Tai Chi itself is the daoist philosophical concept which the martial art is loosely based on. Mlmalone 20:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The word Qigong is used a few times in the article, but there is no definition of it. I suggest adding at least a short parenthetical definition after the first reference. (I would add it myself, but I don't know what it is.) -- Skb8721 17:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Its not really necessarry to include a definition. Thats what internal links are for. If someone doesnt know what Qigong is, then they read the definition on the Qigong page.
VanTucky
23:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
What would be nice is something on the differences and similarities between qigong and tai chi, or whether one is a subset of the other. Rojomoke ( talk) 12:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
No inline citations. Also, for future reference, you should put {{GAnominee|date}} here on the talk page when you nominate, as described in the directions at WP:GAC. -- Ideogram 04:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Just want to share that I have noticed a growth in the number of quality youtube videos of tai chi including rare clips of well known masters. I ahve some on my page on youtube Master Gohring's Tai Chi & Kung Fu Youtube Videos.
There are also many many more. I don't know if they can be embedded and discussed here, Youtube's interface is a bit difficult for discussions and it often has non Tai chi practicioners commenting on tai chi videos. Anyway, if you have any ideas please share. I am still pretty new to wikipedia so let me know if this is not appropriate to post here.
Thank you.
Master Gohring Master Gohring's Tai Chi & Kung Fu 6611 Airport Blvd. Austin TX, 78752 512-422-4245 Master Gohring's Tai Chi & Kung Fu
To reach GA status, I think we need to rewrite the intro and first few sections to make them as concise as possible, also keeping in mind order/grouping (i.e. puttin all the mentions of where it comes from etc. together for cohesion). I think for someone who has no idea what exactly tai chi is, this article's intro would be highly confusing. Remember, first and foremost Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, a resource for people. Despite my personal feelings, I think we also need to review the entire article for NPOV concerening the fair and balanced presentation of the martial art versus health/exercise points of view. I will be doing some bold edits, so please feel free to discuss them with me of course. VanTucky 03:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I've proposed getting a userbox for tai chi players. Bout time we had one. You can view the request here. Cheers! VanTucky 01:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph, as it seems to want to make a causal connexion between the prevalence of squatting in Asia with the practise of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. I'm pretty sure that squatting (from prehistory) predates T'ai Chi ( Song dynasty at the earliest, but only recorded from the late Qing dynasty), and is probably more directly linked to the relative scarcity of chairs in rural villages, at least until recently. For us to imply that an aspect of T'ai Chi may be a contributing factor to the syndrome is opinion or even original research if it isn't explicitly stated in a secondary source.
-- Fire Star 火星 13:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Most of the section refers to referenced and peer-reviewed medical journal articles, so I personally think deleting the paragraph is fine. Orangemarlin 16:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I recently was reading {{Template:Martial arts}} by type and found that tai chi was listed as a striking art. This seemed absolutely ludicrous to me, so I moved it to the grappling section. While this isn't exactly correct, as tai chi isn't interested in sustaining holds, locks or groundwork like judo or wrestling and does implement some strikes, placing tai chi in the same category of martial art by type as taekwondo and karate seemed especially foolish. It also depends on style, because different styles apply the bafa in different ways. Chen style could most definitely be called a grappling art, but I'm not so sure about Yang, Wu, or Sun styles. Any thoughts on how tai chi should be categorised in this context? VanTucky 01:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
"Taijiquan is not the kind of martial art whose applications can be broken down into specific elementary techniques against specific kinds of hypothetical attacks. It is rather an art that teaches one, gradually, through individual and partner training, to respond with sensitivity to circumstances..."
Why should their be translations into Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese in the infobox? There aren't translations for other non-originating countries, and tai chi isn't a unique part of the aforementioned countries culture's. VanTucky 01:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Good suggestion Bradford, I'll implement it (if someone didnt already). Thanks for batting this about with me FireStar. VanTucky 14:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with that, but just FYI: we're probably going to get grumbling about unequivocally attributing the creation to Chen Wangting. It may be better to say: Disputed. And possibly include both Wangting and Zhang San Feng. VanTucky 17:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I filled in parenthood, but there are too many famous prac's to mention. Also, does "hardness" refer to difficulty or to hard and soft styles? VanTucky 18:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
WTF? I personally placed a NY Times citation to the last paragraph, and now it's gone with a fact tag on it. VanTucky 18:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The current link ( this one) is very much a product advert interspersed with references. Finding these references and linking directly would be useful. I've done one, Article in The Lancet, requires free registration.
Hi, just wanted to mention that the "See also" section could use some trimming, as it should not include terms appearing in the body of the article. See WP:GTL#See also. Bradford44 12:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed on both points. VanTucky (talk) 15:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
We have seen Christianity often manipulated towards that of a cult, by individuals with a hidden manipulative agenda.
Is there anything to suggest a 'hidden agenda' within the Tai Chi movement in North America ?
-- Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
What is the actual difference between the two in terms of health benefits? For if we only talk about health, Tai-Chi seems like another form of Chi-Gong. Also, both Tai-Chi and Chi-Gong are used by martial artists to improve their abilities. In that sense they both seem like the backbone of many martial arts styles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.80.43.11 ( talk • contribs)
I appreciate, whoever made better claims to Zhang San Feng in the article. I also agree with another person who posted here on this page, that Zhang San Feng, not "Chen" style is the original creator of Tai Chi. The article should make note of that. Also weapons and more on self-defense should be added and empathized. I am from direct Cheng Man Ching lineage. Thank You.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.4.100 ( talk • contribs)
This is curious. Traditional tai chi chuan is loaded with strike training. Is the infobox meant to just represent wushu competitions? -- Bradeos Graphon ( talk) 22:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering why most of the Chinese words in Wikipedia are written with their Pinyin Romanization system, yet the Taijiquan article is written Tai Chi Chuan? It seems to be more mainstream to spell it Tai Chi Chuan and more "in the know" the spell it Taijiquan. This linguistic turn could also shed light on the initial discussion on this page regarding fists and such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.22.155.15 ( talk) 00:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I do not claim to have any knowledge about Tai Chi, and I simply stumbled across this article by coincidence. I did think it should be mentioned that the section entitled "modern tai chi" seems almost like a complaint instead of fact. With quotes like, "practically anyone can call themself a teacher" and "If they do teach self-defense, it is often a mixture of motions which the teachers think look like tai chi chuan with some other system", it seems more like a disgruntled tai chi teacher complaining than facts about the art. I suggest that the paragraph be rewritten or taken out due to the overall tone of this section of the article.
Ldavis57 ( talk) 20:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)ldavis57
This article is not consistent in the way Chinese terms are transliterated. I started to make changes, but soon realized that I did not know the Wikipedia style well enough to do a good job, so I did not make any changes. I don't know much about t'ai chi, but I know enough Chinese to spot inconsistency. OatFarm ( talk) 02:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
In this article, it's variously referred to as Tai Chi, tai chi, and Tai chi. Is there any reason to capitalize either or both words? Considering the meaning of the phrase -- "supreme ultimate fist" -- I see none. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyharrison ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
Firestar - This article is weighted completely wrongly.
Taoism - As I said before there is hardly any mention at all of Taoism, in fact this should be right at the top of the page. Taoism is quite simply the basis of T'ai Chi, you have the yin-yang diagram so why isn't there more mention of it? Okay there is some discussion of yin and yang principles but you know that, I know it, the average person however will not make the connections with Taoism and the other related fields of Taoist study.
Chi - Secondly you have hardly mentioned the fact that T'ai Chi is not a physical form of exercise but is more closely related to Chi Gung. What about the micro-cosmic energy circulation and energy meridians and energy centres? T'ai Chi is not based upon physics or western science, I think you have confused it with aerobics! To talk about T'ai Chi without mentioning Chi is absurd. Just sticking a link in is not enough, this needs much more in depth discussion. Okay T'ai Chi is related to Martial Arts that much is obvious but you are giving completely the wrong impression here, westerners will think it's Karate.
Softness and Internal principles - T'ai Chi is a soft style and is not about fighting but about learning the skills to avoid fighting. Where are the discussions about internal style principles? Nothing! There is no mention of the principles of softness with regard to going with the flow of energy and yielding as opposed to the hard style principle of blocking force, this is the key to softness not how relaxed the muscles are altho of course this is also important from the standpoint of energy flow.
Lineage - This lineage diagram is absolute nonsense. Anyone with even a basic understanding of Taoist philosophy will know that lineage is not a Taoist concept but derives from Confucian ancestor worship. T'ai Chi masters are not ranked according to pieces of paper or even fighting skills but in their knowledge of Taoism and it's practical application as a teaching method of the way (Tao). In fact true Taoists would never dream of comparing themselves with others or ranking styles according to which is best. Why have this ridiculous lineage diagram which no one at all will be interested in? it is redundant. It is also extremely boring, please remove it at once.
Pre and Post Revolution - There needs to be some mention of the fact that many Taoists were exiled or forbidden to practise their T'ai Chi and related studies with the advent of Communism. Many Taoist masters had to go overseas and take their T'ai Chi to other countries. Have you seen 'Pushing Hands' by Ang Lee? Maybe you should. The point has to be made that Taoism and T'ai Chi practise was actively suppressed and that many documents and lineages not to mention people were destroyed so no accurate history of T'ai Chi can be compiled. Also T'ai Chi was often kept secret and not taught to the public so just looking at public records of those styles that have popularized themselves is not particularly relevant.
Do you do T'ai Chi Firestar? Let me guess, you do Yang style T'ai Chi. This article is far too heavily weighted towards Yang style and their attempts to promote their style through documentation and lineage. Get a life guys, no one is interested in this. Please can you stop censoring this article and find something better to do with your life? As for the rest of you let's hear something more interesting about Chi energy and Taoist philosophy and enough talk about redundant lineage documents. -- Chuangzu 18:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Chuangzu, I'm sorry that you are disappointed with the article, although your comments make me wonder if you've even read it. Let's address them point by point, shall we?
Well, we have: T'ai Chi Ch'uan is seen by many of its schools as a variety of Taoism, and it does seemingly incorporate many Taoist principles into its practice (see below). and: "Various people have offered different explanations for the name T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Some have said: 'In terms of self-cultivation, one must train from a state of movement towards a state of stillness. T'ai Chi comes about through the balance of yin and yang. In terms of the art of attack and defense then, in the context of the changes of full and empty, one is constantly internally latent, not outwardly expressive, as if the yin and yang of T'ai Chi have not yet divided apart.' Others say: 'Every movement of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is based on circles, just like the shape of a T'ai Chi symbol. Therefore, it is called T'ai Chi Ch'uan.' Both explanations are quite reasonable, especially the second, which is more complete." and: As the name T'ai Chi Ch'uan is held to be derived from the T'ai Chi symbol, the taijitu or t'ai chi t'u (太極圖, pinyin tàijítú), commonly known in the West as the " yin-yang" diagram, T'ai Chi Ch'uan techniques are said therefore to physically and energetically balance yin (receptive) and yang (active) principles: "From ultimate softness comes ultimate hardness." and: Lao Tzu provided the archetype for this in the Tao Te Ching when he wrote, "The soft and the pliable will defeat the hard and strong." and: When tracing T'ai Chi Ch'uan's formative influences to Taoist and Buddhist monasteries, one has little more to go on than legendary tales from a modern historical perspective, but T'ai Chi Ch'uan's practical connection to and dependence upon the theories of Sung dynasty Neo-Confucianism (a conscious synthesis of Taoist, Buddhist and Confucian traditions, esp. the teachings of Mencius) is readily apparent to its practitioners., so you see we have quite a few mentions of and links to Taoism. Not everyone agrees that T'ai Chi is exclusively Taoist, however, the way it is taught by the Chinese T'ai Chi families also incorporates other traditions, such as Confucian didacticism and Buddhist pacific values, "kind-heartedness". Also, this is an article about T'ai Chi, not Taoism (even though we talk in several places how T'ai Chi depends on Taoist principles). If people want more about Taoism, they can always go to our Taoism article.
There is: The slow, repetitive work involved in that process is said to gently increase and open the internal circulation ( breath, body heat, blood, lymph, peristalsis, etc.). Over time, proponents say, this enhancement becomes a lasting effect, a direct reversal of the constricting physical effects of stress on the human body and: Breathing exercises; nei kung (內功 nèigōng) or, more commonly, qigong or ch'i kung (氣功 qìgōng) to develop qi or ch'i (氣 qì) or "breath energy" in coordination with physical movement and post standing or combinations of the two. These were formerly taught only to disciples as a separate, complementary training system. In the last 50 years they have become more well known to the general public. That seems pretty clear to me. Not every T'ai Chi school has its own qigong, some add outside systems, others don't do qigong at all. Again, if people want more about qigong, they are directed to qigong.
Again, I'm wondering if you've even read the article, as there is: T'ai Chi Ch'uan is considered a soft style martial art, an art applied with as complete a relaxation or "softness" in the musculature as possible, to distinguish its theory and application from that of the hard martial art styles which use a degree of tension in the muscles. and: T'ai Chi Ch'uan as physical training is characterized by its requirement for the use of leverage through the joints based on coordination in relaxation rather than muscular tension in order to neutralize or initiate physical attacks. and the focus meditation and subsequent calmness cultivated by the meditative aspect of T'ai Chi is seen as necessary to maintain optimum health (in the sense of effectively maintaining stress relief or homeostasis) and in order to use it as a soft style martial art. and: a slow sequence of movements which emphasise a straight spine, relaxed breathing and a natural range of motion; the second being different styles of pushing hands or t'ui shou (推手) for training "stickiness" and sensitivity in the reflexes through various motions from the forms in concert with a training partner in order to learn leverage, timing, coordination and positioning when interacting with another. Pushing hands is seen as necessary not only for training the self-defense skills of a soft style such as T'ai Chi by demonstrating the forms' movement principles experientially, but also it is said to improve upon the level of conditioning provided by practice of the solo forms by increasing the workload on students while they practise those movement principles. and: In a fight, if one uses hardness to resist violent force then both sides are certain to be injured, at least to some degree. Such injury, according to T'ai Chi theory, is a natural consequence of meeting brute force with brute force. The collision of two like forces, yang with yang, is known as "double-weighted" in T'ai Chi terminology. Instead, students are taught not to fight or resist an incoming force, but to meet it in softness and "stick" to it, following its motion while remaining in physical contact until the incoming force of attack exhausts itself or can be safely redirected, the result of meeting yang with yin. Done correctly, achieving this yin/yang or yang/yin balance in combat (and, by extension, other areas of one's life) is known as being "single-weighted" and is a primary goal of T'ai Chi Ch'uan training. and: T'ai Chi's martial aspect relies on sensitivity to the opponent's movements and centre of gravity dictating appropriate responses. Effectively affecting or "capturing" the opponent's centre of gravity immediately upon contact is trained as the primary goal of the martial T'ai Chi student, and from there all other technique can follow with seeming effortlessness. The alert calmness required to achieve the necessary sensitivity is acquired over thousands of hours of first yin (slow, repetitive, meditative, low impact) and then later adding yang ("realistic," active, fast, high impact) martial training; forms, pushing hands and sparring. So you see that not only do we mention soft style principles many times, in this and in the pushing hands article, we explain them.
Actually, I didn't put it in the article originally (so it is interesting to at least one other editor), but I have added some names to it over the last year or so. Its content is very well documented from different sources and covers successive generations of the primary families that have been recognised as representative of T'ai Chi by 3 successive Chinese govts. and the overwhelming majority of the Chinese martial arts community. The only change to it I would make now would be to expand it, as we are missing too many Chen family members. The teacher-disciple relationship has been normative in traditional Chinese education for thousands of years. Your assertion that no one will be interested in it is unjustified. I'm sorry that your school isn't on there, but there seems to be no independent documentation of your style's lineage in the public domain.
And again, we plainly comment on that with: ...because many of the family T'ai Chi Ch'uan teachers had either moved out of China or had been forced to stop teaching after the Communist regime was established in 1949.... Also, members of the Wu family, the Yang family and the martial arts documentation of the Kuomintang and Jing Wu Men whom they worked with moved to Hong Kong and Taiwan in 1949. As well, documents of Wu Yu-hsiang's lineage and the Qing dynasty military records in the Forbidden City (written in Manchu) and the 19th century gazeteers of Yongnian county survived the cultural revolution. So there is enough documentation to write a fairly reliable history of the principle players back to 1800 or so. Before that, there are many stories, but it becomes less verifiable.
Well, you are wrong in your guess, I don't do the Yang style (I respect them notwithstanding), but I have studied T'ai Chi for 21 years (two of those years in China) and taught it now for 15, 13 of those teaching years as a disciple of another of the T'ai Chi families. I've fought lei tai and san shou using T'ai Chi exclusively and I've also been fortunate enough to learn tui na and nei gong as used by the traditional T'ai Chi teachers I stayed with in Hong Kong. If by "interesting" you mean speculation or original research, that isn't what an encyclopaedia is for. See Wikipedia:what Wikipedia is not. While I'm not averse to adding new info about Taoism, etc., it has to done well, and I see no reason to remove anything. I have answered every one of your criticisms, and after considering them I again can only conclude that you haven't read any of the article beyond the lineage chart. Your comments about "get a life" put you on the edge of our no personal attacks policy, which I suggest you read thoroughly along with the rest of the T'ai Chi article before we continue our discussions. -- Fire Star 21:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
The titling this article seems weird. I'm not trying to rehash the old Wade-Giles/pinyin debate. However, even in Wade-Giles, 太極拳 is T'ai Chi Ch'üan not Tai Chi Chuan (which looks like it might mean 帶雞傳 or something). Not only that, but we begin the article T'ai Chi Ch'uan, which is confusing because it differs from the title. Can we come up with something a little more consistent?
Also, I'm kind of thinking "Tai Chi Chuan" should not be capitalised. - Nat Kraus e 08:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Are all the alternates redirects to the current article? That should take care of anyone having trouble finding the article. RJFJR 18:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved contribution from User:Wintran downward.
So, I was thinking about the above for awhile and it kept seeming that there was something odd about it. Eventually, I realised that we seem to be assuming that one of these various spellings is the common name for taijiquan in English. But, of course, it's not ... the common name for taijiquan is "tai chi". I've never really heard anyone call it "tai chi chuan". How does one even pronounce "tai chi chuan"? (I know how to say "tai chi", and it's not the same as 太极). Why don't we move this article to tai chi? Bear in mind that we are normally stuck using the form of the name used in the title throughout the article (i.e., referring to it as "tai chi" or "taijiquan" repeatedly in the article), but, if we get around that, then we have to decide what we are going to call it instead. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 22:27, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
(Please don't hit me, Wintran, but I could not find your valuable contribution at first. Therefore I moved it downward to fit in timeline. -- JohJak2 15:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC))
I'm confused over the latest move from Tai Chi Chuan to T'ai Chi Ch'üan. According to the Google test and my own experience, the most common spelling is "Tai Chi Chuan" followed by "Taijiquan". "T'ai Chi Ch'üan" is romanized using the dated Wade-Giles romanization system, and though "Tai Chi Chuan" is a simplified version of this romanization, the latter has been adopted by the English language as the most common spelling. If we do decide that we favor correct romanization over common usage, "Taijiquan" would seem like the correct main article, as it's both more frequently used than "T'ai Chi Ch'üan" and uses the more modern Pinyin romanization. However, to avoid going against Wikipedia:Naming conventions, my proposal is that we change the title back to "Tai Chi Chuan", as this is the most common English term among non-scholars. Wintran 14:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
So, how about moving this article back to Tai Chi Chuan? This includes moving categories and such. Wintran 14:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Tai Chi Chuan is fine with me. I notice in de interwikilinks that it is about half-half Taijiquan or Tai Chi Chuan with a few stragglers. The google-most-used argument is good enough for me. JohJak2 17:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I took the liberty of performing the move to Tai Chi Chuan. If someone still objects, continue discussions here. - Wintran ( talk) 23:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed some double redirects and already fixed a couple before noticing that the recent move is within the last day. Hopefully the name can be quickly settled and then the double redirects also fixed.
I would have thought Tai Chi (with or without capitals) was the most suitable name, as this is what it is commonly known as in English; however I'll leave it to others to work it out. -- Singkong2005 04:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Apparently there is some relationship between tai chi and the chi/ qi life-force concept, but it is not explained in this article. Is that relationship why "chi" appears in the in the name of this art, or is that a linguistic coincidence? (How did the art get its name, anyway?) -- Beland 20:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, Chineese is only a written language, so when we talk about pronounciation we should talk about Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. /Kamil (Ruok) 03.06.2006 (06=June)
The pinyin in this article is all over the place. Either use wade-giles or pinyin and stick to it everywhere.
Too much focus on references to certain commercial organisations in the west.
I have tried to remove some links that are too parochial.
Also removed some references to weapons that are not part of mainstream tai chi (i.e. wip/dart/3sectioned staff)
Recent history: Tai chi is being promoted within china recently to try and counter the cult of falun gong.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielpoon ( talk • contribs)
I think that the reference given for this is lacking in that the entry suggests it might rise to the level of a pilot study in the generally understood conventional medicine/research sense, and the cite is simply an interview in which, in my understanding, there's a bit of anecdotal reportage and the possibility of a pilot study forthcoming. Am I missing something? 24.199.71.163 23:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't we say that the healing part of Tai Chi is acutally Chi Kung? People generally do not understand the difference between the two.
Kamil (Ruok) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruok ( talk • contribs)
Who is this annoynmous joker who keeps repeatedly adding the "Free TV channel" link (see history)? Can we block him some how? Can we lock the page for a while until he gives up the spam? Triponi 10:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
We need to protect the page agian, that anon spammer with the "free tv channel" is back. VanTucky 21:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
We really could use a separate article on Zhaobao style. It is pretty well known and has serious practitioners, especially in China. Unfortunately, I don't know enough of its history to do it justice. Anyone else know anything about it? -- Fire Star 火星 14:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Tai Chi Magazine has at least one issue with an interview with a Zhaobao master. I might have a hard copy somewhere I can reference. VanTucky 00:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I think there should be an internal link to Chin Na in the See Also category. I'd do it myself but I'm a new user and I am not even really sure how. maybe one of the admins can do it. VanTucky 19:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)VanTucky
I deleted the internal link to Waterbender, its too obscure. Olaus M 13:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
About two years ago, I found this website on taichi which offered videos of various forms (24-form, 48-form, etc). I think it offered still photos as well. To put it simply, I cant find it anymore, do any of you guys know where it is? -Guest
Tai Chi America's website also has several form demonstration videos in a different format than realplayer. VanTucky 23:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The short article Taiji dates to September, 2003. It appears to cover the same ground as this one. Take a look and see if you agree that it should be merged here. -- Blainster 17:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Although Tai Chi is largely based on the philosophy Taoism, isn't its meditation based on Zen Buddhist meditation except in a more moving form? Zachorious 08:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't the Shaolin Monks (whose Shallow Temple is a Zen Buddhist temple) practice Tai Chi as well, or is it a combination of many forms of kung fu and tai chi? Zachorious 15:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
So what are the similarities and differences between Buddhist and Taoist meditation in that respect? Is it the moving in Tao or are they pretty much the same except for movement? Zachorious 03:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
From my perspective, FireStar is pretty much correct. For general purposes is can be summarized that many physical/ethical practices of TaiJi come from Buddhist and Confucian sources. The mental/meditative elements of TaiJi are more akin to Taoist practices (having participated in Taoist religous ceremony, chanting and meditation myself). But again, when describing China and the products of its culture (like Taiji) one must remember that the line between Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism is blurred. So for the article, its better just to discuss what the practices of TaiJi players are instead of discussing what may or may not be their origins. it also tends to start frivolous arguements VanTucky 19:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The {{ChineseText}} overlaps the text in my IE 6 browser. Yonidebest 22:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Tai Chi Chuan Secrets Most modern teachers teach the form alone, but this cannot lead to a mastery of Tai Chi Chuan. This is the legacy of teaching the art to the royal family of the Qing Dynasty.
In addition to form, one has to learn the verbal secrets, called kou juie. This is used to coordinate the psychosomatic aspects of the art. Another secret is the movement of the chi, and how to coordinate it with the form. This involves using "locks" to control its flow, as dissipated chi is of not much use. Finally, application of the form is rarely taught; the student has to figure that out, and this takes years.
I just want to say bravo Firestar. Your recent work to make the Tai Chi family of articles gold-star quality has been greatly appreciated. I'd give you a barnstar, but I have absolutely no clue how. and as far as this balderdash about using verbal secrets as psychosomatic aids, I just have to say this person is the kind of New Age nutcase that makes skeptics discard taiji and qigong into the dungheap of superstitious nonsense. its an internal art, which means that chi moves through your body (either with or without intention) internally. the idea that saying a set of magic incantations is the heart of neigong is absurd. VanTucky 19:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
We certainly don't want to imply that there are nutcases at Wikipedia. I think (I can't speak for him, so this is a guess) that VanTucky is reacting to the dozens if not hundreds of bad T'ai Chi teachers he has seen, too. I put it down to a case of misunderstanding and would ask that we all work to get these articles to A class rating. I have mentioned, if only obliquely, here and at the Chinese martial arts article that bad or incomplete teaching (same thing, really) does harm to the reputations of our arts. We can have stylistic differences here, but we can all agree that we want good articles, especially compared to some debates I've seen here over the years I think we have a very good chance. Regards, -- Fire Star 火星 02:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Firestar is correct in his comment about why I reacted the way I did. it seems that simple misunderstanding is the culprit for any inappropriate content. to address whatever pertinence I can derive from your quotations Cottonball...
about advanced technology (or in this case, physical technique) seeming miraculous and the necessity for imagination in pushing the boundaries of a given field: there are many things about advanced taiji practice that can seem nearly magical to the untrained eye or that have little to no scientific proof but can be reproduced by anyone given time and effort. such as the ability of someone to push over the last person standing in a connected line while leaving all others before him standing. I'm not sure if what you mean to suggest by those quotes, but what I glean from them indirectly is that you are trying to say: dont be so sure of everything, what some have called impossible has been done. well, thats very true. but I think Arthur C. Clarke would agree with me in saying that just because some new and wonderful ability is professed doesnt stifle the requirment for the same simple empirical proof that we require of anything else. VanTucky 19:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
somewhat anonymous poster here, just wanted to point something out. Towards the bottom in the "Health benefits" section, it says that taijiquan burns more calories than surfing and almost as much as downhill skiing, when according to the supplied calorie burning chart link, neither is true.
i have failed this for now. The article, for the exception of the medical benefits section, is not referenced well, and needs citations. A prose cleanup could defintely be of benefit, however. Clean it up, get some citations, then relist it. -- badlydrawnjeff talk 02:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS to move page at this time. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Tai Chi Chuan → Taijiquan — The name of the activity, because it originates from China, is actually 太极拳. The current standard representation of these chinese characters uses the pinyin system, which, when written, it is Tàijíquán or often simplified as Taijiquan. This complies with Wikipedia:Naming conventions ~ Feureau 23:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you could explain how Taijiquan complies with WP:NC? WP:NC(UE) says the English should be used and if there isn't an english name, then Pinyin can be used. Also, WP:NC(CN) says the most common name should be used. In this case Tai Chi is the most common name. I'm not seeing how Taijiquan complies with WP:NC, but if you can provide an explanation, I might be persuaded to not oppose the move. Thanks! -- Bobblehead 01:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess the point to consider is whether translation accuracy or the popularity if usage is more important. For the most part, only those that already aquainted with taiji are going to search under that version, and (in America at least) tai chi chuan is the accepted dictionary version not taijiquan. But personally, every Chinese speaking person I know says that taijiquan is the correct romanization, and that it also better represents proper pronunciation than tai chi chuan. VanTucky 03:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
well, I disagree about the infobox. it does a crap job of explaining pronuncition. But I'm not sure which version youre pulling for when you disagree with my arguments JohJak. Do you oppose or support? VanTucky 21:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
oh I see, that sounds helpful. but the pronunciation guides in articles (when they appear) are often more confusing than helpful. anyway, seems that everyone opposes for the most part. VanTucky 03:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Tai Chi is a martial art form that utilizes both the fist and the external weapon. Chuan is the word that denotes the use of hands as weapons. It is incorrect to call Tai Chi "Tai Chi Chuan" unless you are talking specificaly about weapons-free forms.
No, Tai Chi by itself denotes a daoist philosophical concept which literally means the most elemental separation of yin and yang. Chuan at the end of tai chi means "fist" with the connotation of shadow-boxing and differentiates the tai chi concept from the tai chi martial art. You can shadow box with weapons. Dropping the chuan is like using a nickname it is informal and for convenience. Put it this way, if you were correct about this we would have to go back and correct the names of around 1000 chinese styles. Mlmalone 20:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
1. It is not necessarily true that most scholars agree that taijiquan began with the Chen family. Taijiquan's history, in fact, is in some dispute. For many years, Zhang San Feng was (and still is by many people) regarded as the founder of taijiquan. In recent years the Chen family has laid claim as the founders of taijiquan. A third arguement states that no one individual or family created taijiquan but, rather, the art evolved through the centuries from several different sources.
The arguement that Zhang San Feng was the founder of taijiquan is based on his authorship of the first of the tai chi classics. Scholars dispute the authenticity of this claim, however, pointing out that others could have just as easily authored the essay. Add to that, some historical suggestions that Zhang San Feng may have been nearly 200 years old and it is not hard to see why this story is often dismissed.
The Chen family's claim to authorship of taijiquan depends on how you define taijiquan. If, for example, you define it as an art utilizing the taiji principles as outlined in the taiji classics, then there are documented arts in China as early as the 7th century that fit this definition (see: "The Dao of Taijiquan" by Jou Tsung Hwa). Further, many of the guiding principles and energies of the art (chan si jing, fa jing, etc.) also predate Chen style taijiquan and are found in older arts including xingyiquan. Ba fa (ward off, roll back, press, push, etc.) are also found in arts older than Chen style taijiquan and many of the postures found in Chen style exist in martial art styles predating Chen Wanting.
I would like to suggest that the author offer the arguements on all sides and allow the reader to decide.
2. The author cites only two key components to training - solo form and push hands. No where is mentioned the most crucial aspect of taijiquan training - zhan zhuang (standing training). Most all traditional taijiquan schools begin students with zhan zhuang. Standing training serves many purposes. First, it helps practitioners memorize proper structure in static postures. Secondly, it teaches students to find and maintain complete muscle relaxation (song). Third, it trains concentration and intention (yi) through utilization of advanced mental exercises designed to facilitate contraindication within the musculature. The end result is a process that eliminates muscle tension while at the same time increasing strength, speed, reflexes and reaction time. Once this state can be maintained in a static position, the next stage is to introduce this state into movement. This is where tai chi form comes in. Perhaps most importantly, without the inclusion of standing training in the beginning stages, it is much more difficult to learn to produce and maintain peng jing, a key energy in taijiquan.
I would like to suggest that the author researches the subject and append their entry to include zhan zhuang. For further study, some of the more advanced standing techniques can be found in Yiquan, a martial system founded by the legendary master Wang Xiangzhai.
Sincerely,
Jim Donnelly, Director, American Society of Internal Arts, www.AmericanSocietyOfInternalArts.org
HANDS FOLDED IN RESPECT —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jdonnelly001 ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
Hi Fire Star,
Zhan zhuang is, unfortunately, a poorly understood topic. Post standing is a multi-purpose tool, not one single practice. The posting referred to in the neigong section of wikipedia refers to the use of standing as a form of qi development. While this type of exercise may be found in taiji schools, this is not the same zhan zhuang used for structural training. Likewise, zhan zhuang is not the same as deep standing for 30 minutes in postures. That type of standing is designed primarily for developing leg conditioning and balance. Nor is it simply a form of meditation as one usually thinks of meditation. Yiquan probably comes closest to describing the old methods of standing training, although some argue that, as practiced today, even Yiquan has been watered down a bit. As for Yang Zhenduo, despite being the head of the Yang family, he doesn't necessarily speak for taijiquan masters everywhere. He's just one of hundreds with a single viewpoint. Good Holidays!
Jim Donnelly, Hands Folded In Respect
While you certainly show credible knowledge and sources mr. Donnelly, I have to disagree with you. The majority of credible scholars place Zhang San Feng in the same context as such chinese cultural hero-founders as the famous general Yue Fei. That is to say, most likely a real person at some point, but who has been mythologized enormously. Zhang San Feng is not only credited as the founder by taiji practitioners, but by just about anyone practicing an art with internal characteristics. While the idea that the Chens are the first and sole originators of taiji principles or the first incarnation of the ba fa is totally inane, it does not make a semi-mythical character in chinese folk tales out to be the sole originator. like you said, taiji is really the work of hundreds of individuals throughout the generations contributing to its development. and just to repeat FireStar's arguement...while I personally agree about the importance of standing meditation, it is by a huge margin NOT the core taiji practice in the west or east among current practitioners. though regretable, we can all regcognize that the days of students spending weeks/months only learning zhan zhuang are over. Just look at the advent of the multitude of short forms, people have neither the time nor the inclination to spend that much time on zhan zhuang as a core/founding practice. We are not going to return to some "golden age" of taiji where people revere zhan zhuang practice. VanTucky 20:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I was just considering the idea of expanding the number of tai chi stubs like the single whip stub. a group of stub explaining the postures of tai chi found in every style (single whip, grasp bird's tail etc.) and detailing the differences in execution and application. anyone want to collaborate? VanTucky 01:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I just discovered the pages for the so-called Tchoung style tai chi. Not disputing that this guy taught his own version of tai chi which was obviously Yang influenced. But his students claim he learned from a much older generation of Yang teachers than Yang Chengfu, this and other claims by the people who wrote the page (his students of course) allude to the Tchoung style being "original" Yang style that is superior to the lineage of all other Yang teachers. Historical truth not withstanding, wikipedia has strict NPOV and if we dont let people write their own bios, then we sure as hell cant let his students lord it over the article of their "style" claiming to be the pure standard bearers of Yang teachings. I suggest the article for a serious overhaul, maybe even deletion. VanTucky 20:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I've revamped them for npov. this makes them okay for inclusion I think, though having not a single indedpendent citation, they are still on shaky ground. VanTucky 21:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I've moved that the contents of Tchoung Ta Chen style tai chi be merged with the Yang style page. VanTucky 21:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The following two articles link to tai chi, should there not also be reverse links here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguazhang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X%C3%ADngy%C3%ACqu%C3%A1n
Currently there seems to be no mention of these two associated arts that are frequently taught alongside tai chi. (CJE) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.169.45.170 ( talk) 12:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
first of sorry but i dont know how to input chinese yet. second, the quan or chuan in tai chi chuan or taiji quan does mean fist when used by itself. however in martial arts it connotes "boxing" to distinguish itself from just taiji, which is just a philosophical theory. Almost all Chinese martial arts have a quan at the end to denote it being a "boxing" style and not just a family name. However, quan or chuan in itself means fist.-- Blckavnger 15:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, Tai Chi Chuan is in fact one of the forms of Tai Chi, not Tai Chi itself. I have changed the redirect that led "Tai Chi" to this page. If anyone is interested about the subject I did a quick search on google and found an ok site about it. [1] All the best, Whiskey in the Jar 15:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
To clerify: Tai Chi Chuan is the Martial Art which can further be broken down into many substyles under the overall heading. Tai Chi itself is the daoist philosophical concept which the martial art is loosely based on. Mlmalone 20:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The word Qigong is used a few times in the article, but there is no definition of it. I suggest adding at least a short parenthetical definition after the first reference. (I would add it myself, but I don't know what it is.) -- Skb8721 17:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Its not really necessarry to include a definition. Thats what internal links are for. If someone doesnt know what Qigong is, then they read the definition on the Qigong page.
VanTucky
23:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
What would be nice is something on the differences and similarities between qigong and tai chi, or whether one is a subset of the other. Rojomoke ( talk) 12:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
No inline citations. Also, for future reference, you should put {{GAnominee|date}} here on the talk page when you nominate, as described in the directions at WP:GAC. -- Ideogram 04:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Just want to share that I have noticed a growth in the number of quality youtube videos of tai chi including rare clips of well known masters. I ahve some on my page on youtube Master Gohring's Tai Chi & Kung Fu Youtube Videos.
There are also many many more. I don't know if they can be embedded and discussed here, Youtube's interface is a bit difficult for discussions and it often has non Tai chi practicioners commenting on tai chi videos. Anyway, if you have any ideas please share. I am still pretty new to wikipedia so let me know if this is not appropriate to post here.
Thank you.
Master Gohring Master Gohring's Tai Chi & Kung Fu 6611 Airport Blvd. Austin TX, 78752 512-422-4245 Master Gohring's Tai Chi & Kung Fu
To reach GA status, I think we need to rewrite the intro and first few sections to make them as concise as possible, also keeping in mind order/grouping (i.e. puttin all the mentions of where it comes from etc. together for cohesion). I think for someone who has no idea what exactly tai chi is, this article's intro would be highly confusing. Remember, first and foremost Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, a resource for people. Despite my personal feelings, I think we also need to review the entire article for NPOV concerening the fair and balanced presentation of the martial art versus health/exercise points of view. I will be doing some bold edits, so please feel free to discuss them with me of course. VanTucky 03:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I've proposed getting a userbox for tai chi players. Bout time we had one. You can view the request here. Cheers! VanTucky 01:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph, as it seems to want to make a causal connexion between the prevalence of squatting in Asia with the practise of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. I'm pretty sure that squatting (from prehistory) predates T'ai Chi ( Song dynasty at the earliest, but only recorded from the late Qing dynasty), and is probably more directly linked to the relative scarcity of chairs in rural villages, at least until recently. For us to imply that an aspect of T'ai Chi may be a contributing factor to the syndrome is opinion or even original research if it isn't explicitly stated in a secondary source.
-- Fire Star 火星 13:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Most of the section refers to referenced and peer-reviewed medical journal articles, so I personally think deleting the paragraph is fine. Orangemarlin 16:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I recently was reading {{Template:Martial arts}} by type and found that tai chi was listed as a striking art. This seemed absolutely ludicrous to me, so I moved it to the grappling section. While this isn't exactly correct, as tai chi isn't interested in sustaining holds, locks or groundwork like judo or wrestling and does implement some strikes, placing tai chi in the same category of martial art by type as taekwondo and karate seemed especially foolish. It also depends on style, because different styles apply the bafa in different ways. Chen style could most definitely be called a grappling art, but I'm not so sure about Yang, Wu, or Sun styles. Any thoughts on how tai chi should be categorised in this context? VanTucky 01:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
"Taijiquan is not the kind of martial art whose applications can be broken down into specific elementary techniques against specific kinds of hypothetical attacks. It is rather an art that teaches one, gradually, through individual and partner training, to respond with sensitivity to circumstances..."
Why should their be translations into Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese in the infobox? There aren't translations for other non-originating countries, and tai chi isn't a unique part of the aforementioned countries culture's. VanTucky 01:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Good suggestion Bradford, I'll implement it (if someone didnt already). Thanks for batting this about with me FireStar. VanTucky 14:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with that, but just FYI: we're probably going to get grumbling about unequivocally attributing the creation to Chen Wangting. It may be better to say: Disputed. And possibly include both Wangting and Zhang San Feng. VanTucky 17:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I filled in parenthood, but there are too many famous prac's to mention. Also, does "hardness" refer to difficulty or to hard and soft styles? VanTucky 18:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
WTF? I personally placed a NY Times citation to the last paragraph, and now it's gone with a fact tag on it. VanTucky 18:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The current link ( this one) is very much a product advert interspersed with references. Finding these references and linking directly would be useful. I've done one, Article in The Lancet, requires free registration.
Hi, just wanted to mention that the "See also" section could use some trimming, as it should not include terms appearing in the body of the article. See WP:GTL#See also. Bradford44 12:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed on both points. VanTucky (talk) 15:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
We have seen Christianity often manipulated towards that of a cult, by individuals with a hidden manipulative agenda.
Is there anything to suggest a 'hidden agenda' within the Tai Chi movement in North America ?
-- Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
What is the actual difference between the two in terms of health benefits? For if we only talk about health, Tai-Chi seems like another form of Chi-Gong. Also, both Tai-Chi and Chi-Gong are used by martial artists to improve their abilities. In that sense they both seem like the backbone of many martial arts styles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.80.43.11 ( talk • contribs)
I appreciate, whoever made better claims to Zhang San Feng in the article. I also agree with another person who posted here on this page, that Zhang San Feng, not "Chen" style is the original creator of Tai Chi. The article should make note of that. Also weapons and more on self-defense should be added and empathized. I am from direct Cheng Man Ching lineage. Thank You.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.4.100 ( talk • contribs)
This is curious. Traditional tai chi chuan is loaded with strike training. Is the infobox meant to just represent wushu competitions? -- Bradeos Graphon ( talk) 22:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering why most of the Chinese words in Wikipedia are written with their Pinyin Romanization system, yet the Taijiquan article is written Tai Chi Chuan? It seems to be more mainstream to spell it Tai Chi Chuan and more "in the know" the spell it Taijiquan. This linguistic turn could also shed light on the initial discussion on this page regarding fists and such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.22.155.15 ( talk) 00:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I do not claim to have any knowledge about Tai Chi, and I simply stumbled across this article by coincidence. I did think it should be mentioned that the section entitled "modern tai chi" seems almost like a complaint instead of fact. With quotes like, "practically anyone can call themself a teacher" and "If they do teach self-defense, it is often a mixture of motions which the teachers think look like tai chi chuan with some other system", it seems more like a disgruntled tai chi teacher complaining than facts about the art. I suggest that the paragraph be rewritten or taken out due to the overall tone of this section of the article.
Ldavis57 ( talk) 20:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)ldavis57
This article is not consistent in the way Chinese terms are transliterated. I started to make changes, but soon realized that I did not know the Wikipedia style well enough to do a good job, so I did not make any changes. I don't know much about t'ai chi, but I know enough Chinese to spot inconsistency. OatFarm ( talk) 02:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
In this article, it's variously referred to as Tai Chi, tai chi, and Tai chi. Is there any reason to capitalize either or both words? Considering the meaning of the phrase -- "supreme ultimate fist" -- I see none. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyharrison ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)