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We need a web link. — iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 03:46, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
Is Syed Mohamed AlRefaie from Yemen also a co-founder of Thabiligi Jamaat ? An anon ip added this to the article. can any one confirm this ? I have temp removed it because I could'nt find anything in this regard. -- Soft coder Talk 14:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Syed Mohamed AlFefai is not a co founder of Tabligi Jamaat — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asifsayedwiki ( talk • contribs) 22:59, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I have removed a sentence which stated Tablighi Jamaat is sympathatic to Taliban. There is no reference provided or any statements from their leaders to prove this fact. Also, I removed a sentence, grossly praising the Tablighi Jamaat as "extremely courteous and broad minded", which is just authors POV.-- Soft coder Talk 05:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Tabligh jamat was named by people as "tabligh jamat", it was not picked by the revivalist of the work. Sheikh Muhammad Ilyas did not found the effort of building Muslims faith and conviction; he merely revived one of the efforts of Prophet Mohammed(saw). Prophet Mohammed(saw) founded the effort of spreading the message of Islam and to build faith and conviction among Muslims. To attribute the title of founder of the effort to ones faith and conviction in Islam to Sheikh Mohammed Illiyas is blasphemous! This is a very common mistake on most online articles on Tabligh. Sheikh Muhammad Ilyas role was to revive the effort and providing guidelines on how to conduct them effectively among Muslims. I read the page against Thableeg Jamaat, I'm 24 yrs boy who was in this jamaath for 3 yrs. I've gone 4 months in the path of Allah. I have no doubts reagrding Islam or Sunna. Please till last.... May Allah reward you with jannath..
I believe that its the only jamaath that follow or try to achieve 100% sunna and Nabi's teachings. I have tried other jamaaths, but all are to achieve duniya benefits and contain less Isthikhlas(for Allah's satisfaction). When I learned to ask Allah and take from him directly through namaz and dua, I also start accumulating wealth like other jamaath members. Its all about Yaqeen (Iman). I don't want to go further...
From the three questions you asked, I came to understand that you have lots of knowledge about and against thableeg but did know less about actual islam. Just Imagine What Nabi S.A did in his first 13 yrs. Go through books. Then see what Nabi S.A did his next years. Also see what did Aboobaker R.A did as soon as he became muslim. See What other sahabi's did. Why did they left holy place (lakhs of sawab) and their family and came to India and other places. How many times did N.S.A did visit abu jahal and other enimies to preach Islam. All these gives you ideas about first question.
In Nabi S.A zamana even the public munafiqs don't miss Jamaath salah(fard). Now you can imagine our condition. We call ourselves "MUSLIMS" and follow yahudi and nasrani sunna. The number of people leaving islam is more than the number of people converting to islam. So who have to stop it? What happens if our muslim brothers convert to other religions. During Sahabis time they lived a true islamic life, hence no need for Islamic dawaa to muslims, but now we are our lives like kaafir, We have to follow 100% islamic sunnah and do what sahabi's did since they are normal people like us.(not alims aswell). How did kuffar convert to islam in Sahabas Zamana, not by dawaath alone, they converted to islam by seeing muslims and understanding them. If we become a true MUSLIM and live a sunnah life in every aspect of our lives (behavior, social dealings, respect for others etc) other will automatically convert to islam. Kaafir don't want to hear what you say, but see what you do. Alhamdulilla now because of this Jamaath lots of people are converting to islam in America and Europe and live a true islamic life.
It will be best if you read more books about findings of Thableegue Jamaath and Who is the actual founder. We don't give moulana Illiyas any thing or we don't obey his orders, Its Nabi S.A who we all love and follow. Maoulana was only an asbab through which Allah showed us the right path. Alhamdulillah Allah showed me the right path.
Sending salams to qabr of good people are not shirq. Sending salaths to Nabi S.A are very rewarding. but everything the way sahabis did. They are our teachers. Allah is happy with them and satisfied of them.
You will understand everything only if you go for atleast fourty days in this. Once you have travelled with this jamaath you will understand how wrong you are and explain to others. Don't be late please, millions of people are ahead of you, they understood it. They lead a right life, be with them brother.
What we teach is to spend our maximum time to earn for akhirah, like dikr, salath and dawaath. Since Dawaath is the most rewarding of them all, we practice that more often.
We do not support any politics. We even do not concern about anything duniya. We are all look forward for akhira only. we don't even discuss about duniya very much. Its the power of Allah who prevent others from harming us. You understood how much power Allah is. We don't any police force or military win against kaafir. Allah is self sufficient. Its Allah who put good or bad in the minds of people. Its truth and here we have proof.
Even the largest miliatary forces are not will to go to israel and fight for palestinians. Even any of muslim jammath (blah blah speeches) doesn't. But Thableeg jamaath is active in all countries. InshaAllah if Palastinians get hidayath and they lead a true life then Allah will distroy Israil like he have distroyed aad, luth and shoaib quoms. Is it hard for Allah? We are humans and we have no power unless Allah gives us.
Please learn deepily what our Six numbers tell us. Its all about living a deeni life like sahaba. Its about Iman(kalima and sunnath wala life), Namaz(true namaz), Dikr(24hrs), Ilm(minimum halal and haram ilm is must), Ikram muslim(help others by sacrificing our needs - v imp against non muslims), Ikhlas and niyyath(only only only for Allah), Dawaath ilaAllah(self money, self body, self time to Allah's path for "self Dheen").
Is there any thing we don't need from above?
Thableeg tells us to lead 100% islamic life. Namaz, Dikr etc will constitute only 20%, the rest 80% lies with family, food, sleep, work etc. So we should live our all aspect of life like Sahabas did and Nadi S.A showed us.
Lots of things are on my mind and InshaAllah may Allay make you and your friends understand. Since Thableegue people don't bother about media, and internet is a shaythans playground, pls don't refer to internet more deeply regarding thableegue. You can go to them personally. Shaythan is always against thableegue, because it will make people overcome the powers of nafs and shaythan.
Please learn more, If I myself can learn this much, you surely can go alot ahead. My Allah reward me with Ilm and ya Allah please forgive me if I have committed any mistakes.
LAILAHA ILLALLAH MUHAMMADU RASOOLULLAHI SELLALLAHU ALAIHIWASALLIM
Except for the "Allegations from U.S. counter-terrorist officials", this article is completly unsourced so there's no way to determine if, for example, the Saudis tolerate, or suppress them. I've added in a bunch of referenced which I (and anyone else interested) will read through in order to fix the article. Armon 00:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I was the one who added this section. I would argue that, in order to be encyclopedic, the allegations deserver mention in this article.
I've come across more information. Murat Kurnaz, one of the Guantanamo detainees who was detained largely because he had traveled to Pakistan and been hosted by Tablighi, went through an Administrative Review Board hearing last fall. In preparation for that his lawyers submitted letters from three Professors of religion, explaining the peaceful nature of Tablighi:
Rather than add this material, and possibly a lot more material, documenting the US allegations, and the defenses against those allegations I thought it might make sense to spin off another article, entitled something like allegations that Jama'at Tablighi is tied to terrorism.
Is there anyone who doesn't think this is a good idea? Cheers! -- Geo Swan 17:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, OK well I've said that the article needs work but I haven't actually done anything about yet -sorry. I bring this up because I don't think the we should spin off the terror links article until and unless we actually need to. Whether the accusations are valid or not, they are certainly notable and should be included -but a lot of the objections Tanzeel and Soft_coder brought up would be addressed in a proper article. Simply presenting the accusations without any background on Tablighi Jamaat, donsn't enlighten anybody -which should be our goal on WP. For example, from what I've read so far in the references I posted to the page, there's conflicting reports about the organization. On the one hand, it's basically a broad Islamic missionary movement, and as such, as Tanzeel pointed out, they have little control if someone wants to use their networks for nefarious ends. However, on the other hand, there's also been allegations that high-ranking members been involved in Pakistani coups -this doesn't bolster the "apolitical" claim. In summary, vote no to new article, vote yes to include accusations, but lets not make them 90% of the article, let's get some cited background info in there. Armon 16:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
hi, im not sure how to use the edit facilityso please edit my edit as you see fit.......
saad is not the fourth ameer of tabligh. after the third ameer died, another ameer was not appointed. instead tabligh leadership consists of a shuraa which loosely means council. how do i know this? because i was there. i have been to their centre in delhi nizamuddin and stayed there for quite a while. another interesting thing is that according to tabligh jamaat, the devil beomes the ameer of the jamaat that does not have an ameer!
I reverted another unexplained excision of material about the US allegations against Tabligh today. I have reverted unexplained excisions of this material something like half a dozen times already. What I suspect is that merely reading the allegations inflames the emotions of some readers, who don't fully understand the wikipedia's commitment to balanced, neutral coverage of topics.
I continue to think a separate article, that just addressed the allegations of US intelligence establishment against Tabligh is a good idea. I pointed out that there are excellent resources to keep that article balanced. I cited the three letters from American professors of the history of Religion, who offered very fair sounding explanations of the Tabligh movement, and its apolitical roots. Have any of you looked at them?
I have been reading through the transcripts of the Guantanamo detainees. Literally dozens of the detainees, including one of the men who committed suicide on June 10 2006, are being held, in part, because the US intelligence establishment maintains that membership in Tabligh is indicative of a tie to terrorism.
I have held off on expanding on this section out of deference to the feelings of followers of Tabligh. I too don't find the US allegations credible. But the wikipedia NPOV policy prevents you and I from asserting that.
I continue to think that the best way for the wikipedia's coverage of Tabligh to be balanced and neutral, while minimizing the extent to which repeating the allegations inflames wikipedia readers and contributors who are sympathetic to Tabligh, or followers themselves, who aren't familiar with the NPOV policy, is to have two separate articles -- one on Tabligh, and one on the US allegations.
I would really appreciate it if those who are more familiar with Tabligh would read through and comment on the three letters I cited above. Thanks. -- Geo Swan 15:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The section that touches on the allegations from U.S. counter-terrorist officials has been deleted again -- this time by an anonymous editor, with no previous edit history. I've restored it, again. -- Geo Swan 14:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Let me just state myself as an example here. I first heard of the Tablighi Jamaat in reference to Murat Kurnaz - although what I heard elsewhere already made me quite sure that the US allegations are unfounded, and I just came here to know more about what the group is instead (and found the article helpful) I certainly would have been surprised to see nothing about alleged Al-Qaeda links. So that should stay in - maybe the article text should make it a little clearer that the US' allegations are unsubstantiated, though. (And look less as if it was written by millions of people. :) ) -Lewis
I would encourage contributors to this article who want to balance the US allegations with references to authoritative, verifiable sources that refute those allegations.
Over and above that this article needs more verifiable authoritative sources in general.
I mentioned the three letters from three American professors of the history of religion. Each of the letters is about three pages long. They provided short accessible histories of the movement -- exactly the kind of reference this article needs. I provided the URL of Murat Kurnaz's Administrative Review Board documents, including those letters. And I provided the page numbers within that file where the letters began.
I would encourage other contributors to this article tor read those letters, with an eye to providing references to all the sections of the article that lack references.
And I would encourage other contributors to this article tor read those letters, with an eye to providing authoritative, verifiable references to refute the US allegations agains Tabligh Jamaat. -- Geo Swan 15:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Today Tablighi Jamaat gave a statement and i want to add it to article as follows
Though it had remained the implicit policy of members of Tablighi Jamaat not to talk about politics and the on-going events but on April 28, 2009. The Pakistan ameer of Tablighi Jamaat, referring to the on-going activities of Taliban in around Swat Valley (Pakistan) said:
"Shariah cannot be enforced at gunpoint."
He and several other members of organization have condemned 'extremism and militancy in the name of Islam'
I know it still doesn't sound very neutral or encyclopedic. So kindly rephrase it if possible.
Muhammad Hamza (
talk)
18:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I sounded out the other contributors to this article as to whether they would feel more comfortable if the bulk of discussion of the US intelligence and counter-terrorism establishment's allegations against Tabligh Jamaat into a separate article. Other contributors did not respond positively to this suggestion.
Since I made the suggestion I have come across many other Guantanamo detainees who the US justifies continuing to detain based on participation in Tabligh Jamaat. -- Geo Swan 15:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow, did I ever get tired of admirers of Tablighi removing references to the allegations of US intelligence analysts. Admirers kept removing them on the ground that they considered them ridiculous. At one point the subsection devoted to those allegations was the only part of this article that cited any references at all.
Today User:Netmonger excised the section about the allegations of a connection to terrorism claiming WP:RS. WP:AGF. I am going to assume User:Netmonger forgot to review the talk page prior to his or her excision.
Cheers! Geo Swan 19:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
"Otherwise readers like me who are not bothered to read the talk page would just remove it on the basis its an exceptional claim without any references."
"Also, substantial changes or deletions to the articles on complex, controversial subjects with long histories ... should be done with extra care. ... If you would like to make a significant edit to an article on a controversial subject ... it's a useful idea to first read the article in its entirety and skim the comments on the talk page."
"poorly explained edits to articles you haven't really taken the time to read first."
As you say Geo Swan, in your main article I did not find any reference or mention about these incidents, so I have removed it again, please do not restore it unless you have reference, please use your sandbox to complete the section with reference if you decide to add it back, don't add it in the pretext of referencing them later. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence which says
The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. Quotations should also be attributed. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.
NëŧΜǒńğer Peace Talks 19:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
After repeated attempts to reason with admirers of the Tabligh movement, and explain to them that they couldn't simply remove the wikipedia's coverage of the US allegations against the Tabligh movement, no matter how ridiculous, flimsy, uninformed they personally thought them to be,
Cheers! Geo Swan 11:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I restored this section. It has been excised again. And again this excision was done without any discussion here on the talk page.
As I have pointed out before, WP:VER says the aim of the wikipedia is "verifiability, not truth". Whether or not contributors to this article have confidence that the counter-terrorism analysts allegations are truthful, or not truthful, is unimportant. What is important is that the allegations were made, and are documented by verifiable, authoritative references. Geo Swan ( talk) 12:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2316667,00.html this is in conection with the 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot Hypnosadist 14:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The latest edits by Catstail demonstrate blatant POV. There are no reliable citations and the article is riddled with POV ("despite an apolitical facade, etc.). Had I the time I would sort it out myself, but I don't, so I request someone to address this article and make it balanced again. Tanzeel 13:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I added something about the arrest of Tabliq clerics in Somalia, as well as a Ugandan woman's complaints against the Tabliq movement, plus other concerns of radical Islamist roots in the organization. Hopefully they will not disappear. -- Petercorless 04:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I just undid an anonymous excision of my recent additions. If someone wishes to remove my work, they should raise the issue here on this talk page, and cite the factual refutations of the points raised. -- Petercorless 19:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The 97% figure is not from a credible source, it is from an anti-mosque article on a Christian's People's Alliance website, which doesnt cite its sources and is clearly not neutral POV. Also note it says "according to local observers". Hardly reliable info, especially when one's religion cannot be determined by observers. Also, the 2001 census states Dewsbury South (the area of Savile Town) is around 30% Muslim. Since this has been tagged as unreferenced since Feb 2007, I shall remove this. The Times article also refers to a reporter commenting on Beeston, an area over 10 miles away from the Savile Town area of the mosque, and which already has a large asian population, much like many parts of east London, Birmingham, etc. Nothing to with Tablighi Jamaat, and so needs to be removed. Please comment here if anyone has any problems with this. Feudonym 01:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
An answer to a question with regards to tabligh by Mufti Ebrahim Desai(biography http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/mufti.shtml), Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah I believe it clarifies alot of the misconceptions and the article should be adjusted to adopt these clarifications [3]
I removed an unreferenced tag that no longer seemd to imply.
Hey gang, if you are going to place a tag, how about leaving the article on your watchlist, and periodically reviewing whether the concern that prompted you to palce the tag still applies?
Cheers! Geo Swan 02:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
"maqaami and amalan intiqaali" These terms are unfamiliar to english speakers.
The first line of this section is followed by an incredibly ugly string of about 20 or so reference links. This breaks up the article and makes it hard to read, and is probably unnecessary - many of the same references are linked further down the same section anyway, and the rest are linked on the 'Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism' page. Can someone please clean up this section to remove or cut down the long string of references? Thanks in advance. Terraxos 00:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to place this article in Category:Islamist groups ? Tablighi Jamaat isn't even a well-defined 'group' as such, and it certainly is not 'Islamist' in spirit, even though some people held at GBay have allegedly taken part in Jamaat and done bad things. I await clarification. MP ( talk• contribs) 10:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I moved this portion of the text here for discussion:
An article in National Interest Online Alexis Debat of the The Nixon Center stated:<ref name=THE-MUSLIM-YMCA> {{Cite web | url=http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=13134 | title=The Muslim YMCA | author=[[Robert VerBruggen]] | publisher=[[National Interest online]] | date=[[December 1]] [[2006]] | accessdate=2007-06-14 }}</ref>
"The organization is present in more than 80 countries, and about 99.9 percent of its activities are legitimate, peaceful and apolitical... It’s dedicated to improving society through individual development... They claim it’s not a political goal, but I’d argue that trying to change a society’s values is a political project, philosophically speaking." Attending a gathering, known as ijtima, in Pakistan he claimed, "I was told that, in the compound, Al-Qaeda came to raise money from Arab sheikhs and recruit foreign Muslims." Noting the difficulty separating out the violent extremists from the generally peaceful members, Debat added, "The question is how to root out the 0.1 percent that are terrorists without antagonizing the rest of the community."
Alexis Debat's credibility has been discussed, in particular after having made a false interview of Barack Obama in the magazine Politique internationale. See Une fausse interview d'Obama dans Politique internationale by Pascal Riché in Rue 89 (See WP:RS). Tazmaniacs 11:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
An anon IP excised a referenced passage, supplying an edit summary with an unreferenced claim. →Political & celebrity links - It has been proven that the initial reports connecting Kafeel Ahmad to Tabligh were incorrect and caused by a reporter's error.
I reverted it. If that anon comes back, and wants to excise this passage again, I would ask them to provide a better reason than their unsubstantiated word.
Cheers! Geo Swan 15:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Another anon IP excised several paragraphs, without any explanation. I reverted this excision. If anyone has concerns about this section I encourage them to either raise them here first, or give a meaningful explanation here afterwards. Given the long history of excisions of this material I would prefer a civil dialogue over this material here, first.
Cheers! Geo Swan 15:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Shabiha ( t • c) 19:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Mrizwankhan 11:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC) I dont understand why the article has been brought back, considering its obviously someone's POV, not to mention how horribly written...
Mrizwankhan 13:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes its true that Criticism within Islam for the Jamaat exists, BUT what ever was written under this heading was purely POV, horribly written (most probably the work of follower of the Barelvi sect). I have deleted that text - it was or is as below:
According to many Muslims, anti-Islamic forces fear very much from three things and want the Muslims to stop them. These are
1. Islamic preaching to non Muslims 2. Jihad 3. Establishing an Islamic state
Tableeghi jamaat proudly says that they don’t preach to non-Muslims, they only preach to Muslims in other countries. They assume that when ALL muslims will become tableeghi, then they will preach to non-Muslims. And due to this wrong assumption (ALL muslims will never become perfect or join the tablighi jamaat), even when they go to foreign coutnries, they don’t preach to non-Muslims, although it’s clearly against the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Secondly, they use all the references about Jihad in Islam for their tableeghi missions, although Islam doesn’t have this kind of tabeeghi concept. In the books by their scholars, all they can bring to support their claims are ayat and ahadith actually revealed for Jihad. Even some of them think that their tableeghi missions are superior to Jihad. And they downplay the importance of the jihad in Islam and forbid their followers to even talk about it.
Thirdly, they say that there is no need to implement Islamic rules in a country, and no need to establish an Islamic state becuase if ALL Muslilms wil become tableeghi, Islam will automatically come in the state. That is again against Islamic teachings, since Prophet (SAW) established an Islamic state in Madina when only around 200 Muslims accepted Islam in 13 years of Makkah period. And in Madina, there were munafiqeen, jews, etc But he still established Islamic laws. But the tableeghi jamaat don’t want to do that. They think that ALLAH will only ask the president of a country whether he implemented Islamic laws or not. The biggest proof of tableeghi jamaat being a failure is that one tableeghi became president of Pakistan (Rafiq Tarar), and even then there couldn’t be any Islam in that country.
Based on the above three reasons, tableeghi jamaat (TJ) is like a blank check for anti-Islamic forces. They are trying hard to subtract the establishment of Islamic state, jihad and preaching of Islam to non-Muslims from within Islam.
1. Lack of concern with Aqeedah. Perhaps a man amongst them will accompany them for forty years and you will find him remaining on his innovated aqeedah, or aqeedah consisting of Shirk. And this is in opposition to the Sunnah since the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) ordered Muaadh ibn Jabal when he sent him to the Yemen that he should begin by calling the people to the testimony that there is none worthy of worship (in truth) except Allaah alone and that Muhammad is His Messenger [the hadeeth is in Bukhaaree and Muslim]. Therefore, the da'wah to Tawheed comes before every single thing and the one who submits himself to Tawheed is prepared and ready to renounce/abandon everything that is in opposition to the Sharee'ah is this not true? Do any of you dare to respond and argue this truth that Tawheed is before everything.
2. Lack of concern with Knowledge.
You will see one of them having spent twenty years (on khurooj etc...) yet he still remains in his ignorance and in abandonment of knowledge and goodness. Bukhaaree and Muslim have reported in their Saheehs that the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said: "To whomsoever Allaah intends goodness He gives him understanding of the Deen". The caller to Allaah is the most deserving of people to have zeal and enthusiasm for the beneficial knowledge so that he can call people upon Baseerah (clear evidence, sure knowledge, with insight). Allaah said: Say: This is my way, I call upon Allaah upon Baseerah (clear evidence, sure knowledge), I and whoever follows me and free is Allaah from all imperfections and I am not of those who associate partners with Allaah. [Yoosuf 12:108]
3. Falling short in Conveying some of the matters and being heedless of a large part of the Sharee'ah.
And Allaah the Exalted said: O you who believe enter into Islam into fully (completely)that is take Islaam from all its aspects. Indeed many of the excelled people of knowledge flee from their da'wah for this reason. And we are not making it obligatory upon them to speak about those matters in which they are not capable to do so and we do no permit them to speak in those matters about which they have no knowledge. But we say: Indeed it is obligatory upon the caller to Allaah that he speaks with justice due to His saying: "And when you speak then be just...", and the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) ordered Abu Dharr to speak the truth even if it was bitter! and yet you feel that this is too much to do and will cause a prson to move away from Tabligh.
4. Partisanship to the Madhdhab of Abu Haneefah
Partisanship towards the madhhab of Abu Haneefah is found amongst many of you - but the caller to Allaah, in fact every Muslim, it is necessary for him to comply with and to submit to the evidence. does this seem wrong to you? And it is not befitting for a believing man or woman when Allaah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any choice (after that) in their affair. And whoever disobeys Allaah and His Messenger then he has strayed clearly [Surah Ahzaab 33:36] So how can such a person call others to follow the Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) yet he is the first of those to oppose [the Messenger]? O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do? It is greatly detestable to Allaah that you say that which you do not do [Soorah Saff 61:2-3] Do you enjoin you Al-Birr (piety and righteousness and each and every act of obedience to Allbh) on the people and you forget (to practise it) yourselves, while you recite the Book? Have you then no sense? [Soorah al-Baqarah 2:44]
And Shu'ayb (as) said: I wish not, in contradiction to you, to do that which I forbid you. I only desire reform so far as I am able, to the best of my power. [Soorah Hud 11:88]
5*****. Narrating weak and fabricated hadeeth and those hadeeth which have no foundation or basis and saying that it is okay as long as it is encouraging/supportive etc. The Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said: "Beware of narrating much from me for whoever ascribes something to me, then let him say the truth and whoever says upon me that which I did not say, then let him find his seat in the Hellfire." Reported by Ahmad from Abu Qataadah.
And whoever says: 'Some of the people of knowledge have allowed the narrating of weak hadeeth which are related to the virtues of the actions' then he did he has not complied with the conditions they have attached to it, and that it is that the hadeeth should not be very weak and that it should have a basis [from other hadeeth] and that acting by it should not become common and widespread. And additionally, it is not permissible to narrate except that which is established... and when he speaks with the weak and forged hadeeth and that which has no basis then it is clear that it is not permissible to act upon it and Allaah knows best.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tablighi_Jamaat"
This text was again added and then deleted -- Afrazj ( talk) 15:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The Arabic script says Jamaat-ul-Tabligh, not Tablighi Jamaat. AnonMoos ( talk) 08:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The word TABLEEGHI JAMAAT is an urdu word. Whereas the Jamaatul Talbleegh is arabic word. So the word is correct in its mention. Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 23:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Do you people believe that the arabic translation is needed? Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 18:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
The current article cites specific praises of the movement in the comments section but only cites Salafi criticisms in the Criticism section with only a vague statement against the criticism that the movement is related to terrorism. We must remember that whether or not there is any truth to the allegations of terrorism, there is enough notable sources making these allegations to suggest that they should be specifically cited. One source mentioned above is the Times of London article, its information should be integrated into this article, because whether it is right or wrong it is notable and thus it belongs in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.227.246 ( talk) 18:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently writing a paper which deals in part with Tabligh Jamat. I tried to balance views of it and give as much info as I could. I think the article over all has to be expanded due to Tabligh's importance in the global Muslim community. I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes, and if I have time later, I hope to put in some more effort on the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 ( talk) 14:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I still dont understand why this section was added. This doesn't sound encyclopedic since it comprises only of praises. Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 15:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I strongly believe that the comments section and the allegations section should be merged because they deal with same basic topic i.e. Repute ! Moreover it'll be nicer to read the mixed neutral perspective under a single section instead of creating different sections for praises and allegations which seems pointless. Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 11:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
The definition mentions the word missionary. Tablighi jamaat is not a missionary organization and i've gone through most of the cited sources and cannot find this word associated with the organization. Unlike the word 'missionary' implies, the TJ does not seek the conversion of non-muslims. Its objective is the spiritual revival of muslims. As, the Ask Imam reference states "Their objective is that each and every Muslim adopts the Islamic way in all aspects of life". And if i omit the the 'missionary' word then the definition becomes very short and touches the fringes of pointlessness. So i believe the definition needs a complete reform. Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 11:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Also the beliefs are mentioned in the next sentence. I think the new definition should state the most of WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, & WHY. Where who is Maulana Ilyas, what is the Jamaat, when is 1926, where is Nizamuddin, and why is religious reformation of Muslims —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muhammad Hamza ( talk • contribs) 11:56, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
i am suggesting the following as the introductory sentence to article
"Tablighi Jamaat is a transnational religious movement whose principle aim is the spiritual reformation of Muslims"
An edit was made here by a DoD IP address, User:130.22.190.5: [4]. An adjacent IP address, User:130.22.190.10 just said he was a current Guantanamo guard, so I believe these edits were also made by someone at Guantanamo.
I'd like to ask, generally, for good faith editors from the DoD to identify themselves as such. I recognize that this was particular edit was clearly a good faith edit. But not all of the edits from this IP address were good faith.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 15:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I believe that article is now in a shape that can be regarded as AVERAGE. It's now organized as compared to the state when it was tagged. So I am removing the 'article requires quality standards" tag. Hamza [ talk ] 14:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
1. I see no reason of not mentioning good amount of material from the article. The allegations are very important part of TJ's image all over the world and require due detail in the article. I understand that a full article exists with this title but merely few lines, i believe, are not appropriate to do justice with the scope of section. Also some detailed material from that article will add to establishing a NPOV.
2. This article can undoubtedly be attributed to the Hanafi Islam but how does it relate to the ISLAMIC CULTURE? It will be inappropriate, technically, to attribute tabligh to Islamic Culture. Though, TJ has got a great following but still it has yet to gain much more to be called an important part of Islamic Culture
I have absolutely no personal problem with your edits but i think you should've mentioned some details on this Talk Page before erasing such a large part of section. I am restoring it and i assume you are courteous enough to settle the matter here before making these edits on the article. Hamza [ talk ] 13:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Again, this page is on the activities of TJ, and not them being alledged of terrorism. Period Chicagocubsfan ( talk) 01:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, Gérard Prunier in his book "From Genocide to Continental War" (Hurst & Company, 2009) clearly mentions that Tabliq fighters occupied the Kampala Central Mosque in 1991, and that many of their brethren found their ways into the Allied Democtratic Froces (ADF) in Uganda. (Prunier, p. 87). I guess this counts as advocating violence... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.195.21.84 ( talk) 17:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Also I don't know whether it is justified to say that the movement is pacifist in the intro, when the only reference leads to a - not traceable - quote of a "muslim leader". In 1999, the UNHCR accused memebrs of the Tabliq movement of terrorist attacks: --> http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,4565c22538,459a87252,3ae6ad3170,0,IRBC,,UGA.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.195.21.84 ( talk) 17:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Any comments?
Hamza [
talk ]
17:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
--
Masha Allah the article is greatly improved, I think has a good neutral point of view. One point to note is the abbreviation TJ, it is used repeatedly (I think more than required), my humble suggestion is to consider the use the words 'movement' or 'organization' instead.
NëŧΜǒńğer
Peace Talks
16:48, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I've removed it an separated some text out of History section into an article sub-section of History/Origin which is already summarizing Tabligh Movement in Mewat. May i also mention that the article Tabligh Movement in Mewat is perhaps citing from books that may be objected upon. This article section is giving the same info but out of some credible references. If you still have any concerns, then feel free to tag the article for them. — Hamza [ talk ] 04:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
We need a web link. — iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 03:46, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
Is Syed Mohamed AlRefaie from Yemen also a co-founder of Thabiligi Jamaat ? An anon ip added this to the article. can any one confirm this ? I have temp removed it because I could'nt find anything in this regard. -- Soft coder Talk 14:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Syed Mohamed AlFefai is not a co founder of Tabligi Jamaat — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asifsayedwiki ( talk • contribs) 22:59, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I have removed a sentence which stated Tablighi Jamaat is sympathatic to Taliban. There is no reference provided or any statements from their leaders to prove this fact. Also, I removed a sentence, grossly praising the Tablighi Jamaat as "extremely courteous and broad minded", which is just authors POV.-- Soft coder Talk 05:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Tabligh jamat was named by people as "tabligh jamat", it was not picked by the revivalist of the work. Sheikh Muhammad Ilyas did not found the effort of building Muslims faith and conviction; he merely revived one of the efforts of Prophet Mohammed(saw). Prophet Mohammed(saw) founded the effort of spreading the message of Islam and to build faith and conviction among Muslims. To attribute the title of founder of the effort to ones faith and conviction in Islam to Sheikh Mohammed Illiyas is blasphemous! This is a very common mistake on most online articles on Tabligh. Sheikh Muhammad Ilyas role was to revive the effort and providing guidelines on how to conduct them effectively among Muslims. I read the page against Thableeg Jamaat, I'm 24 yrs boy who was in this jamaath for 3 yrs. I've gone 4 months in the path of Allah. I have no doubts reagrding Islam or Sunna. Please till last.... May Allah reward you with jannath..
I believe that its the only jamaath that follow or try to achieve 100% sunna and Nabi's teachings. I have tried other jamaaths, but all are to achieve duniya benefits and contain less Isthikhlas(for Allah's satisfaction). When I learned to ask Allah and take from him directly through namaz and dua, I also start accumulating wealth like other jamaath members. Its all about Yaqeen (Iman). I don't want to go further...
From the three questions you asked, I came to understand that you have lots of knowledge about and against thableeg but did know less about actual islam. Just Imagine What Nabi S.A did in his first 13 yrs. Go through books. Then see what Nabi S.A did his next years. Also see what did Aboobaker R.A did as soon as he became muslim. See What other sahabi's did. Why did they left holy place (lakhs of sawab) and their family and came to India and other places. How many times did N.S.A did visit abu jahal and other enimies to preach Islam. All these gives you ideas about first question.
In Nabi S.A zamana even the public munafiqs don't miss Jamaath salah(fard). Now you can imagine our condition. We call ourselves "MUSLIMS" and follow yahudi and nasrani sunna. The number of people leaving islam is more than the number of people converting to islam. So who have to stop it? What happens if our muslim brothers convert to other religions. During Sahabis time they lived a true islamic life, hence no need for Islamic dawaa to muslims, but now we are our lives like kaafir, We have to follow 100% islamic sunnah and do what sahabi's did since they are normal people like us.(not alims aswell). How did kuffar convert to islam in Sahabas Zamana, not by dawaath alone, they converted to islam by seeing muslims and understanding them. If we become a true MUSLIM and live a sunnah life in every aspect of our lives (behavior, social dealings, respect for others etc) other will automatically convert to islam. Kaafir don't want to hear what you say, but see what you do. Alhamdulilla now because of this Jamaath lots of people are converting to islam in America and Europe and live a true islamic life.
It will be best if you read more books about findings of Thableegue Jamaath and Who is the actual founder. We don't give moulana Illiyas any thing or we don't obey his orders, Its Nabi S.A who we all love and follow. Maoulana was only an asbab through which Allah showed us the right path. Alhamdulillah Allah showed me the right path.
Sending salams to qabr of good people are not shirq. Sending salaths to Nabi S.A are very rewarding. but everything the way sahabis did. They are our teachers. Allah is happy with them and satisfied of them.
You will understand everything only if you go for atleast fourty days in this. Once you have travelled with this jamaath you will understand how wrong you are and explain to others. Don't be late please, millions of people are ahead of you, they understood it. They lead a right life, be with them brother.
What we teach is to spend our maximum time to earn for akhirah, like dikr, salath and dawaath. Since Dawaath is the most rewarding of them all, we practice that more often.
We do not support any politics. We even do not concern about anything duniya. We are all look forward for akhira only. we don't even discuss about duniya very much. Its the power of Allah who prevent others from harming us. You understood how much power Allah is. We don't any police force or military win against kaafir. Allah is self sufficient. Its Allah who put good or bad in the minds of people. Its truth and here we have proof.
Even the largest miliatary forces are not will to go to israel and fight for palestinians. Even any of muslim jammath (blah blah speeches) doesn't. But Thableeg jamaath is active in all countries. InshaAllah if Palastinians get hidayath and they lead a true life then Allah will distroy Israil like he have distroyed aad, luth and shoaib quoms. Is it hard for Allah? We are humans and we have no power unless Allah gives us.
Please learn deepily what our Six numbers tell us. Its all about living a deeni life like sahaba. Its about Iman(kalima and sunnath wala life), Namaz(true namaz), Dikr(24hrs), Ilm(minimum halal and haram ilm is must), Ikram muslim(help others by sacrificing our needs - v imp against non muslims), Ikhlas and niyyath(only only only for Allah), Dawaath ilaAllah(self money, self body, self time to Allah's path for "self Dheen").
Is there any thing we don't need from above?
Thableeg tells us to lead 100% islamic life. Namaz, Dikr etc will constitute only 20%, the rest 80% lies with family, food, sleep, work etc. So we should live our all aspect of life like Sahabas did and Nadi S.A showed us.
Lots of things are on my mind and InshaAllah may Allay make you and your friends understand. Since Thableegue people don't bother about media, and internet is a shaythans playground, pls don't refer to internet more deeply regarding thableegue. You can go to them personally. Shaythan is always against thableegue, because it will make people overcome the powers of nafs and shaythan.
Please learn more, If I myself can learn this much, you surely can go alot ahead. My Allah reward me with Ilm and ya Allah please forgive me if I have committed any mistakes.
LAILAHA ILLALLAH MUHAMMADU RASOOLULLAHI SELLALLAHU ALAIHIWASALLIM
Except for the "Allegations from U.S. counter-terrorist officials", this article is completly unsourced so there's no way to determine if, for example, the Saudis tolerate, or suppress them. I've added in a bunch of referenced which I (and anyone else interested) will read through in order to fix the article. Armon 00:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I was the one who added this section. I would argue that, in order to be encyclopedic, the allegations deserver mention in this article.
I've come across more information. Murat Kurnaz, one of the Guantanamo detainees who was detained largely because he had traveled to Pakistan and been hosted by Tablighi, went through an Administrative Review Board hearing last fall. In preparation for that his lawyers submitted letters from three Professors of religion, explaining the peaceful nature of Tablighi:
Rather than add this material, and possibly a lot more material, documenting the US allegations, and the defenses against those allegations I thought it might make sense to spin off another article, entitled something like allegations that Jama'at Tablighi is tied to terrorism.
Is there anyone who doesn't think this is a good idea? Cheers! -- Geo Swan 17:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, OK well I've said that the article needs work but I haven't actually done anything about yet -sorry. I bring this up because I don't think the we should spin off the terror links article until and unless we actually need to. Whether the accusations are valid or not, they are certainly notable and should be included -but a lot of the objections Tanzeel and Soft_coder brought up would be addressed in a proper article. Simply presenting the accusations without any background on Tablighi Jamaat, donsn't enlighten anybody -which should be our goal on WP. For example, from what I've read so far in the references I posted to the page, there's conflicting reports about the organization. On the one hand, it's basically a broad Islamic missionary movement, and as such, as Tanzeel pointed out, they have little control if someone wants to use their networks for nefarious ends. However, on the other hand, there's also been allegations that high-ranking members been involved in Pakistani coups -this doesn't bolster the "apolitical" claim. In summary, vote no to new article, vote yes to include accusations, but lets not make them 90% of the article, let's get some cited background info in there. Armon 16:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
hi, im not sure how to use the edit facilityso please edit my edit as you see fit.......
saad is not the fourth ameer of tabligh. after the third ameer died, another ameer was not appointed. instead tabligh leadership consists of a shuraa which loosely means council. how do i know this? because i was there. i have been to their centre in delhi nizamuddin and stayed there for quite a while. another interesting thing is that according to tabligh jamaat, the devil beomes the ameer of the jamaat that does not have an ameer!
I reverted another unexplained excision of material about the US allegations against Tabligh today. I have reverted unexplained excisions of this material something like half a dozen times already. What I suspect is that merely reading the allegations inflames the emotions of some readers, who don't fully understand the wikipedia's commitment to balanced, neutral coverage of topics.
I continue to think a separate article, that just addressed the allegations of US intelligence establishment against Tabligh is a good idea. I pointed out that there are excellent resources to keep that article balanced. I cited the three letters from American professors of the history of Religion, who offered very fair sounding explanations of the Tabligh movement, and its apolitical roots. Have any of you looked at them?
I have been reading through the transcripts of the Guantanamo detainees. Literally dozens of the detainees, including one of the men who committed suicide on June 10 2006, are being held, in part, because the US intelligence establishment maintains that membership in Tabligh is indicative of a tie to terrorism.
I have held off on expanding on this section out of deference to the feelings of followers of Tabligh. I too don't find the US allegations credible. But the wikipedia NPOV policy prevents you and I from asserting that.
I continue to think that the best way for the wikipedia's coverage of Tabligh to be balanced and neutral, while minimizing the extent to which repeating the allegations inflames wikipedia readers and contributors who are sympathetic to Tabligh, or followers themselves, who aren't familiar with the NPOV policy, is to have two separate articles -- one on Tabligh, and one on the US allegations.
I would really appreciate it if those who are more familiar with Tabligh would read through and comment on the three letters I cited above. Thanks. -- Geo Swan 15:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The section that touches on the allegations from U.S. counter-terrorist officials has been deleted again -- this time by an anonymous editor, with no previous edit history. I've restored it, again. -- Geo Swan 14:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Let me just state myself as an example here. I first heard of the Tablighi Jamaat in reference to Murat Kurnaz - although what I heard elsewhere already made me quite sure that the US allegations are unfounded, and I just came here to know more about what the group is instead (and found the article helpful) I certainly would have been surprised to see nothing about alleged Al-Qaeda links. So that should stay in - maybe the article text should make it a little clearer that the US' allegations are unsubstantiated, though. (And look less as if it was written by millions of people. :) ) -Lewis
I would encourage contributors to this article who want to balance the US allegations with references to authoritative, verifiable sources that refute those allegations.
Over and above that this article needs more verifiable authoritative sources in general.
I mentioned the three letters from three American professors of the history of religion. Each of the letters is about three pages long. They provided short accessible histories of the movement -- exactly the kind of reference this article needs. I provided the URL of Murat Kurnaz's Administrative Review Board documents, including those letters. And I provided the page numbers within that file where the letters began.
I would encourage other contributors to this article tor read those letters, with an eye to providing references to all the sections of the article that lack references.
And I would encourage other contributors to this article tor read those letters, with an eye to providing authoritative, verifiable references to refute the US allegations agains Tabligh Jamaat. -- Geo Swan 15:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Today Tablighi Jamaat gave a statement and i want to add it to article as follows
Though it had remained the implicit policy of members of Tablighi Jamaat not to talk about politics and the on-going events but on April 28, 2009. The Pakistan ameer of Tablighi Jamaat, referring to the on-going activities of Taliban in around Swat Valley (Pakistan) said:
"Shariah cannot be enforced at gunpoint."
He and several other members of organization have condemned 'extremism and militancy in the name of Islam'
I know it still doesn't sound very neutral or encyclopedic. So kindly rephrase it if possible.
Muhammad Hamza (
talk)
18:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I sounded out the other contributors to this article as to whether they would feel more comfortable if the bulk of discussion of the US intelligence and counter-terrorism establishment's allegations against Tabligh Jamaat into a separate article. Other contributors did not respond positively to this suggestion.
Since I made the suggestion I have come across many other Guantanamo detainees who the US justifies continuing to detain based on participation in Tabligh Jamaat. -- Geo Swan 15:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow, did I ever get tired of admirers of Tablighi removing references to the allegations of US intelligence analysts. Admirers kept removing them on the ground that they considered them ridiculous. At one point the subsection devoted to those allegations was the only part of this article that cited any references at all.
Today User:Netmonger excised the section about the allegations of a connection to terrorism claiming WP:RS. WP:AGF. I am going to assume User:Netmonger forgot to review the talk page prior to his or her excision.
Cheers! Geo Swan 19:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
"Otherwise readers like me who are not bothered to read the talk page would just remove it on the basis its an exceptional claim without any references."
"Also, substantial changes or deletions to the articles on complex, controversial subjects with long histories ... should be done with extra care. ... If you would like to make a significant edit to an article on a controversial subject ... it's a useful idea to first read the article in its entirety and skim the comments on the talk page."
"poorly explained edits to articles you haven't really taken the time to read first."
As you say Geo Swan, in your main article I did not find any reference or mention about these incidents, so I have removed it again, please do not restore it unless you have reference, please use your sandbox to complete the section with reference if you decide to add it back, don't add it in the pretext of referencing them later. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence which says
The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. Quotations should also be attributed. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.
NëŧΜǒńğer Peace Talks 19:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
After repeated attempts to reason with admirers of the Tabligh movement, and explain to them that they couldn't simply remove the wikipedia's coverage of the US allegations against the Tabligh movement, no matter how ridiculous, flimsy, uninformed they personally thought them to be,
Cheers! Geo Swan 11:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I restored this section. It has been excised again. And again this excision was done without any discussion here on the talk page.
As I have pointed out before, WP:VER says the aim of the wikipedia is "verifiability, not truth". Whether or not contributors to this article have confidence that the counter-terrorism analysts allegations are truthful, or not truthful, is unimportant. What is important is that the allegations were made, and are documented by verifiable, authoritative references. Geo Swan ( talk) 12:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2316667,00.html this is in conection with the 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot Hypnosadist 14:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The latest edits by Catstail demonstrate blatant POV. There are no reliable citations and the article is riddled with POV ("despite an apolitical facade, etc.). Had I the time I would sort it out myself, but I don't, so I request someone to address this article and make it balanced again. Tanzeel 13:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I added something about the arrest of Tabliq clerics in Somalia, as well as a Ugandan woman's complaints against the Tabliq movement, plus other concerns of radical Islamist roots in the organization. Hopefully they will not disappear. -- Petercorless 04:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I just undid an anonymous excision of my recent additions. If someone wishes to remove my work, they should raise the issue here on this talk page, and cite the factual refutations of the points raised. -- Petercorless 19:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The 97% figure is not from a credible source, it is from an anti-mosque article on a Christian's People's Alliance website, which doesnt cite its sources and is clearly not neutral POV. Also note it says "according to local observers". Hardly reliable info, especially when one's religion cannot be determined by observers. Also, the 2001 census states Dewsbury South (the area of Savile Town) is around 30% Muslim. Since this has been tagged as unreferenced since Feb 2007, I shall remove this. The Times article also refers to a reporter commenting on Beeston, an area over 10 miles away from the Savile Town area of the mosque, and which already has a large asian population, much like many parts of east London, Birmingham, etc. Nothing to with Tablighi Jamaat, and so needs to be removed. Please comment here if anyone has any problems with this. Feudonym 01:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
An answer to a question with regards to tabligh by Mufti Ebrahim Desai(biography http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/mufti.shtml), Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah I believe it clarifies alot of the misconceptions and the article should be adjusted to adopt these clarifications [3]
I removed an unreferenced tag that no longer seemd to imply.
Hey gang, if you are going to place a tag, how about leaving the article on your watchlist, and periodically reviewing whether the concern that prompted you to palce the tag still applies?
Cheers! Geo Swan 02:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
"maqaami and amalan intiqaali" These terms are unfamiliar to english speakers.
The first line of this section is followed by an incredibly ugly string of about 20 or so reference links. This breaks up the article and makes it hard to read, and is probably unnecessary - many of the same references are linked further down the same section anyway, and the rest are linked on the 'Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism' page. Can someone please clean up this section to remove or cut down the long string of references? Thanks in advance. Terraxos 00:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to place this article in Category:Islamist groups ? Tablighi Jamaat isn't even a well-defined 'group' as such, and it certainly is not 'Islamist' in spirit, even though some people held at GBay have allegedly taken part in Jamaat and done bad things. I await clarification. MP ( talk• contribs) 10:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I moved this portion of the text here for discussion:
An article in National Interest Online Alexis Debat of the The Nixon Center stated:<ref name=THE-MUSLIM-YMCA> {{Cite web | url=http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=13134 | title=The Muslim YMCA | author=[[Robert VerBruggen]] | publisher=[[National Interest online]] | date=[[December 1]] [[2006]] | accessdate=2007-06-14 }}</ref>
"The organization is present in more than 80 countries, and about 99.9 percent of its activities are legitimate, peaceful and apolitical... It’s dedicated to improving society through individual development... They claim it’s not a political goal, but I’d argue that trying to change a society’s values is a political project, philosophically speaking." Attending a gathering, known as ijtima, in Pakistan he claimed, "I was told that, in the compound, Al-Qaeda came to raise money from Arab sheikhs and recruit foreign Muslims." Noting the difficulty separating out the violent extremists from the generally peaceful members, Debat added, "The question is how to root out the 0.1 percent that are terrorists without antagonizing the rest of the community."
Alexis Debat's credibility has been discussed, in particular after having made a false interview of Barack Obama in the magazine Politique internationale. See Une fausse interview d'Obama dans Politique internationale by Pascal Riché in Rue 89 (See WP:RS). Tazmaniacs 11:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
An anon IP excised a referenced passage, supplying an edit summary with an unreferenced claim. →Political & celebrity links - It has been proven that the initial reports connecting Kafeel Ahmad to Tabligh were incorrect and caused by a reporter's error.
I reverted it. If that anon comes back, and wants to excise this passage again, I would ask them to provide a better reason than their unsubstantiated word.
Cheers! Geo Swan 15:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Another anon IP excised several paragraphs, without any explanation. I reverted this excision. If anyone has concerns about this section I encourage them to either raise them here first, or give a meaningful explanation here afterwards. Given the long history of excisions of this material I would prefer a civil dialogue over this material here, first.
Cheers! Geo Swan 15:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Shabiha ( t • c) 19:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Mrizwankhan 11:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC) I dont understand why the article has been brought back, considering its obviously someone's POV, not to mention how horribly written...
Mrizwankhan 13:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes its true that Criticism within Islam for the Jamaat exists, BUT what ever was written under this heading was purely POV, horribly written (most probably the work of follower of the Barelvi sect). I have deleted that text - it was or is as below:
According to many Muslims, anti-Islamic forces fear very much from three things and want the Muslims to stop them. These are
1. Islamic preaching to non Muslims 2. Jihad 3. Establishing an Islamic state
Tableeghi jamaat proudly says that they don’t preach to non-Muslims, they only preach to Muslims in other countries. They assume that when ALL muslims will become tableeghi, then they will preach to non-Muslims. And due to this wrong assumption (ALL muslims will never become perfect or join the tablighi jamaat), even when they go to foreign coutnries, they don’t preach to non-Muslims, although it’s clearly against the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Secondly, they use all the references about Jihad in Islam for their tableeghi missions, although Islam doesn’t have this kind of tabeeghi concept. In the books by their scholars, all they can bring to support their claims are ayat and ahadith actually revealed for Jihad. Even some of them think that their tableeghi missions are superior to Jihad. And they downplay the importance of the jihad in Islam and forbid their followers to even talk about it.
Thirdly, they say that there is no need to implement Islamic rules in a country, and no need to establish an Islamic state becuase if ALL Muslilms wil become tableeghi, Islam will automatically come in the state. That is again against Islamic teachings, since Prophet (SAW) established an Islamic state in Madina when only around 200 Muslims accepted Islam in 13 years of Makkah period. And in Madina, there were munafiqeen, jews, etc But he still established Islamic laws. But the tableeghi jamaat don’t want to do that. They think that ALLAH will only ask the president of a country whether he implemented Islamic laws or not. The biggest proof of tableeghi jamaat being a failure is that one tableeghi became president of Pakistan (Rafiq Tarar), and even then there couldn’t be any Islam in that country.
Based on the above three reasons, tableeghi jamaat (TJ) is like a blank check for anti-Islamic forces. They are trying hard to subtract the establishment of Islamic state, jihad and preaching of Islam to non-Muslims from within Islam.
1. Lack of concern with Aqeedah. Perhaps a man amongst them will accompany them for forty years and you will find him remaining on his innovated aqeedah, or aqeedah consisting of Shirk. And this is in opposition to the Sunnah since the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) ordered Muaadh ibn Jabal when he sent him to the Yemen that he should begin by calling the people to the testimony that there is none worthy of worship (in truth) except Allaah alone and that Muhammad is His Messenger [the hadeeth is in Bukhaaree and Muslim]. Therefore, the da'wah to Tawheed comes before every single thing and the one who submits himself to Tawheed is prepared and ready to renounce/abandon everything that is in opposition to the Sharee'ah is this not true? Do any of you dare to respond and argue this truth that Tawheed is before everything.
2. Lack of concern with Knowledge.
You will see one of them having spent twenty years (on khurooj etc...) yet he still remains in his ignorance and in abandonment of knowledge and goodness. Bukhaaree and Muslim have reported in their Saheehs that the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said: "To whomsoever Allaah intends goodness He gives him understanding of the Deen". The caller to Allaah is the most deserving of people to have zeal and enthusiasm for the beneficial knowledge so that he can call people upon Baseerah (clear evidence, sure knowledge, with insight). Allaah said: Say: This is my way, I call upon Allaah upon Baseerah (clear evidence, sure knowledge), I and whoever follows me and free is Allaah from all imperfections and I am not of those who associate partners with Allaah. [Yoosuf 12:108]
3. Falling short in Conveying some of the matters and being heedless of a large part of the Sharee'ah.
And Allaah the Exalted said: O you who believe enter into Islam into fully (completely)that is take Islaam from all its aspects. Indeed many of the excelled people of knowledge flee from their da'wah for this reason. And we are not making it obligatory upon them to speak about those matters in which they are not capable to do so and we do no permit them to speak in those matters about which they have no knowledge. But we say: Indeed it is obligatory upon the caller to Allaah that he speaks with justice due to His saying: "And when you speak then be just...", and the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) ordered Abu Dharr to speak the truth even if it was bitter! and yet you feel that this is too much to do and will cause a prson to move away from Tabligh.
4. Partisanship to the Madhdhab of Abu Haneefah
Partisanship towards the madhhab of Abu Haneefah is found amongst many of you - but the caller to Allaah, in fact every Muslim, it is necessary for him to comply with and to submit to the evidence. does this seem wrong to you? And it is not befitting for a believing man or woman when Allaah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any choice (after that) in their affair. And whoever disobeys Allaah and His Messenger then he has strayed clearly [Surah Ahzaab 33:36] So how can such a person call others to follow the Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) yet he is the first of those to oppose [the Messenger]? O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do? It is greatly detestable to Allaah that you say that which you do not do [Soorah Saff 61:2-3] Do you enjoin you Al-Birr (piety and righteousness and each and every act of obedience to Allbh) on the people and you forget (to practise it) yourselves, while you recite the Book? Have you then no sense? [Soorah al-Baqarah 2:44]
And Shu'ayb (as) said: I wish not, in contradiction to you, to do that which I forbid you. I only desire reform so far as I am able, to the best of my power. [Soorah Hud 11:88]
5*****. Narrating weak and fabricated hadeeth and those hadeeth which have no foundation or basis and saying that it is okay as long as it is encouraging/supportive etc. The Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said: "Beware of narrating much from me for whoever ascribes something to me, then let him say the truth and whoever says upon me that which I did not say, then let him find his seat in the Hellfire." Reported by Ahmad from Abu Qataadah.
And whoever says: 'Some of the people of knowledge have allowed the narrating of weak hadeeth which are related to the virtues of the actions' then he did he has not complied with the conditions they have attached to it, and that it is that the hadeeth should not be very weak and that it should have a basis [from other hadeeth] and that acting by it should not become common and widespread. And additionally, it is not permissible to narrate except that which is established... and when he speaks with the weak and forged hadeeth and that which has no basis then it is clear that it is not permissible to act upon it and Allaah knows best.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tablighi_Jamaat"
This text was again added and then deleted -- Afrazj ( talk) 15:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The Arabic script says Jamaat-ul-Tabligh, not Tablighi Jamaat. AnonMoos ( talk) 08:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The word TABLEEGHI JAMAAT is an urdu word. Whereas the Jamaatul Talbleegh is arabic word. So the word is correct in its mention. Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 23:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Do you people believe that the arabic translation is needed? Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 18:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
The current article cites specific praises of the movement in the comments section but only cites Salafi criticisms in the Criticism section with only a vague statement against the criticism that the movement is related to terrorism. We must remember that whether or not there is any truth to the allegations of terrorism, there is enough notable sources making these allegations to suggest that they should be specifically cited. One source mentioned above is the Times of London article, its information should be integrated into this article, because whether it is right or wrong it is notable and thus it belongs in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.227.246 ( talk) 18:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently writing a paper which deals in part with Tabligh Jamat. I tried to balance views of it and give as much info as I could. I think the article over all has to be expanded due to Tabligh's importance in the global Muslim community. I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes, and if I have time later, I hope to put in some more effort on the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 ( talk) 14:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I still dont understand why this section was added. This doesn't sound encyclopedic since it comprises only of praises. Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 15:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I strongly believe that the comments section and the allegations section should be merged because they deal with same basic topic i.e. Repute ! Moreover it'll be nicer to read the mixed neutral perspective under a single section instead of creating different sections for praises and allegations which seems pointless. Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 11:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
The definition mentions the word missionary. Tablighi jamaat is not a missionary organization and i've gone through most of the cited sources and cannot find this word associated with the organization. Unlike the word 'missionary' implies, the TJ does not seek the conversion of non-muslims. Its objective is the spiritual revival of muslims. As, the Ask Imam reference states "Their objective is that each and every Muslim adopts the Islamic way in all aspects of life". And if i omit the the 'missionary' word then the definition becomes very short and touches the fringes of pointlessness. So i believe the definition needs a complete reform. Muhammad Hamza ( talk) 11:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Also the beliefs are mentioned in the next sentence. I think the new definition should state the most of WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, & WHY. Where who is Maulana Ilyas, what is the Jamaat, when is 1926, where is Nizamuddin, and why is religious reformation of Muslims —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muhammad Hamza ( talk • contribs) 11:56, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
i am suggesting the following as the introductory sentence to article
"Tablighi Jamaat is a transnational religious movement whose principle aim is the spiritual reformation of Muslims"
An edit was made here by a DoD IP address, User:130.22.190.5: [4]. An adjacent IP address, User:130.22.190.10 just said he was a current Guantanamo guard, so I believe these edits were also made by someone at Guantanamo.
I'd like to ask, generally, for good faith editors from the DoD to identify themselves as such. I recognize that this was particular edit was clearly a good faith edit. But not all of the edits from this IP address were good faith.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 15:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I believe that article is now in a shape that can be regarded as AVERAGE. It's now organized as compared to the state when it was tagged. So I am removing the 'article requires quality standards" tag. Hamza [ talk ] 14:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
1. I see no reason of not mentioning good amount of material from the article. The allegations are very important part of TJ's image all over the world and require due detail in the article. I understand that a full article exists with this title but merely few lines, i believe, are not appropriate to do justice with the scope of section. Also some detailed material from that article will add to establishing a NPOV.
2. This article can undoubtedly be attributed to the Hanafi Islam but how does it relate to the ISLAMIC CULTURE? It will be inappropriate, technically, to attribute tabligh to Islamic Culture. Though, TJ has got a great following but still it has yet to gain much more to be called an important part of Islamic Culture
I have absolutely no personal problem with your edits but i think you should've mentioned some details on this Talk Page before erasing such a large part of section. I am restoring it and i assume you are courteous enough to settle the matter here before making these edits on the article. Hamza [ talk ] 13:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Again, this page is on the activities of TJ, and not them being alledged of terrorism. Period Chicagocubsfan ( talk) 01:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, Gérard Prunier in his book "From Genocide to Continental War" (Hurst & Company, 2009) clearly mentions that Tabliq fighters occupied the Kampala Central Mosque in 1991, and that many of their brethren found their ways into the Allied Democtratic Froces (ADF) in Uganda. (Prunier, p. 87). I guess this counts as advocating violence... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.195.21.84 ( talk) 17:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Also I don't know whether it is justified to say that the movement is pacifist in the intro, when the only reference leads to a - not traceable - quote of a "muslim leader". In 1999, the UNHCR accused memebrs of the Tabliq movement of terrorist attacks: --> http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,4565c22538,459a87252,3ae6ad3170,0,IRBC,,UGA.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.195.21.84 ( talk) 17:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Any comments?
Hamza [
talk ]
17:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
--
Masha Allah the article is greatly improved, I think has a good neutral point of view. One point to note is the abbreviation TJ, it is used repeatedly (I think more than required), my humble suggestion is to consider the use the words 'movement' or 'organization' instead.
NëŧΜǒńğer
Peace Talks
16:48, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I've removed it an separated some text out of History section into an article sub-section of History/Origin which is already summarizing Tabligh Movement in Mewat. May i also mention that the article Tabligh Movement in Mewat is perhaps citing from books that may be objected upon. This article section is giving the same info but out of some credible references. If you still have any concerns, then feel free to tag the article for them. — Hamza [ talk ] 04:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
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