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The result of the debate was move -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 22:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Rationale: It is nearly always called the tab key not the tab, and anyone searching for tab is just as likely to be looking for index card, GUI, musical or restaurant tabs.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 15:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Looking at this again, most of the article seems to be about the character rather than the key. Maybe it should have been moved to Tab (character)? It is probably OK where it is, as the character is derived from the key and is almost wholly used for indentation or tabulation. However, I would be grateful if anyone could comment on this before I disambiguate all the links to tab.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 02:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
But it isn't a character. - Pat Peter 01:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
IBM Key punches were card programmable. You programmed the tab stops (among other things) on a punch card, and loaded the card onto the control drum. 150.101.166.15 06:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
A subtle reason why many people don't like the tabs is because the tab key is on the left edge of the key board. Very few people are aware of the extent to which human factors like keyboard layout precondition their responses. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.101.166.15 ( talk) 06:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
"This of course is wrong; good programming practice means ..."
Clearly this is an opinion, it needs removing or a citation, though there are no rules written in stone regarding the construction of code.
A description of the "Tab key" doesn't need to mention programming in the first place. This page should really focus on the origins of the key, modern applications up till the last decade or so, and that's all. I'm pulling the whole section on 'whitespace in programming' because it has nothing to do with the tab key. The HTML section is pushing it, IMHO, but it sort of completes the tables on a typewriter -> printer control code -> on screen formatting evolution. Still, the HTML part could be replaced with something more generic, like a description of tab stops in word processors. A very, very brief mention of how the tab key is overloaded for a number of different computing tasks might cut it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.174.64.232 ( talk) 07:11, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
The following statement is biased:
"The most incompatibility and conversion issues ensue when the tab key generates HT characters and the editor is configured for tab stops spaced anything but the de facto standard, which for Unix, Unix-derived systems and older systems is every 8 characters and for Windows programming, every 4 characters. Interesting possibilities include 2 and even 3."
First, it would be interesting to see a citation that that is the most common problem. Second, the "problem" described isn't really even a problem in most cases because indentation is for indentaton, not formatting, and any code that doesn't look right unless indented a certain width is sloppy code. Third, a common problem (in my experience) is inconsistent spaces-for-tabs, where part of the program has four space indents, others have five, or two, or eight.
I move that we have a general summary of the arguments for and against. In fact, I move that the whole issue get its own article.
SnappingTurtle ( talk) 19:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
What is a back tab key? Is it still in use today?-- 92.227.164.68 ( talk) 08:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Is there a way to make a tab in wiki markup, like the in HTML? - JamesyWamesy ( talk) 00:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
s in HTML by the MW engine and styled such that there is a little extra space between the paragraphs, obviating the need for the outmoded practice of indenting the first-line by either spaces or tabs. Arlo James Barnes 00:59, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
	
, which was described in the article, but not actually done until now. +
m
t
20:04, 14 February 2017 (UTC)FORTRAN was not the origin of the default setting of tab stops at 8 spaces. FORTRAN statements started in column 7, so FORTRAN would had favored tab stops at 6 spaces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.145.54.158 ( talk) 17:31, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
When discussing indentation in source code it is common to refer to the usage of a tab as a 'hard tab', in contrast to a 'soft tab'. This is mentioned on the Indentation and Indent style pages. Should it be referenced here?
Dukedave ( talk) 21:53, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
How did this go unnoticed? The TAB key is used in almost all multiplayer games to show scores and in singleplayer games it still has usage where it often shows the world map or the player's inventory, its usage goes back from DOOM(1994) where it was used to show the level's map. I will try to edit the page with that info, the problem is that I do not have any sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.93.153.156 ( talk) 08:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
I came to this page looking for a tab character I could copy-paste. However I can't seem to find one on the page. Please help! (This is actually serious. I will go back to Google and see if I can find one somewhere else.) - 91.125.149.132 ( talk) 00:04, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
. .I see it with Firefox, Chrome, Internet Explorer, Microsoft Edge. + m t 04:36, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
	
or 	
in HTML. In Windows you can write it directly with
Alt codes: 1) press the Alt button; 2) enter 09 on the Numpad keys; 3) release Alt.--
Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (
talk)
18:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)Many IDEs, especially on Windows, use a default horizontal tab size of 4, yet this has failed to eradicate the 8 standard.
Is it really necessary to speak of eradicating a long standing de facto standard? That seems a bit... editorializing. While it may be true that some Windows IDEs default to 4 character hard tab indents, this isn't some sort of conquest. Windows hasn't "eradicated" the LF-only line ending standard either. -- Mr z ( talk) 07:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
"In HTML the horizontal tab is coded using [..] or &Tab" is true I assume for HTML, but isn't for MediaWiki. See my edit summary (that actually translated the former to [invisible] tab). Possibly MediaWiki should be changed, or if not (internal) pages pointing to the former only, but should this page here mention MediaWiki (as internal pages point to this page)? comp.arch ( talk) 10:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Somebody added a "DUBIOUS" tag to the statement that "Tab-separated values (TSV) are a common, de facto standard". I'm not sure why someone would consider that dubious as I've seen them quite a bit. I'm coming from a UNIX background where traditional tools like sort, awk, and diff have worked with TSV for aeons, but UNIX never bothered with CSV (due to CSV's weird escape syntax). TSV is not just for old fogeys like me. They are still used: Want to parse the latest Unicode standard? Well, [Unihan_Readings.txt] [1], among other data files, is in TSV. The only thing dubious about the statement is whether TSV is a de facto standard. In my humble opinion, the article should drop the phrase "de facto" and simply state that “Tab-separated values (TSV) is a common standard”. TSV has been well described by the [United States Library of Congress] [2]. Note that the same page also states that, "The Library of Congress Recommended Formats Statement (RFS) includes TSV as a preferred format for datasets." 24.16.239.30 ( talk) 01:20, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
i find this line dubious:
"Despite the fact that five characters were the typical paragraph indentation on typewriters at that time, the horizontal tab size of eight evolved because as a power of two it was easier to calculate with the limited digital electronics available."
earlier in the paragraph it mentions that vertical tabs were 6 characters, so printers obviously had the technology for this.
also, if you need a power of two that's close to 5, why not choose 4?
i was always under the impression that this wide tab stop was for printing tables of numbers, such as in a TSV file. 8-space tabs are also useful for programming languages like assembly which are formatted into multiple columns. Binarycat64 ( talk) 05:23, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
The mention of horizontal tab set gives as example a C1 control for HTS (without context), and mixes it with similar verbiage about vertical tabs, pretending to cite ISO 6429 but omitting the widely-supported 7-bit form ESC H (see for example xterm's documentation). TEDickey ( talk) 23:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tab key article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
The result of the debate was move -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 22:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Rationale: It is nearly always called the tab key not the tab, and anyone searching for tab is just as likely to be looking for index card, GUI, musical or restaurant tabs.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 15:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Looking at this again, most of the article seems to be about the character rather than the key. Maybe it should have been moved to Tab (character)? It is probably OK where it is, as the character is derived from the key and is almost wholly used for indentation or tabulation. However, I would be grateful if anyone could comment on this before I disambiguate all the links to tab.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 02:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
But it isn't a character. - Pat Peter 01:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
IBM Key punches were card programmable. You programmed the tab stops (among other things) on a punch card, and loaded the card onto the control drum. 150.101.166.15 06:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
A subtle reason why many people don't like the tabs is because the tab key is on the left edge of the key board. Very few people are aware of the extent to which human factors like keyboard layout precondition their responses. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.101.166.15 ( talk) 06:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
"This of course is wrong; good programming practice means ..."
Clearly this is an opinion, it needs removing or a citation, though there are no rules written in stone regarding the construction of code.
A description of the "Tab key" doesn't need to mention programming in the first place. This page should really focus on the origins of the key, modern applications up till the last decade or so, and that's all. I'm pulling the whole section on 'whitespace in programming' because it has nothing to do with the tab key. The HTML section is pushing it, IMHO, but it sort of completes the tables on a typewriter -> printer control code -> on screen formatting evolution. Still, the HTML part could be replaced with something more generic, like a description of tab stops in word processors. A very, very brief mention of how the tab key is overloaded for a number of different computing tasks might cut it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.174.64.232 ( talk) 07:11, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
The following statement is biased:
"The most incompatibility and conversion issues ensue when the tab key generates HT characters and the editor is configured for tab stops spaced anything but the de facto standard, which for Unix, Unix-derived systems and older systems is every 8 characters and for Windows programming, every 4 characters. Interesting possibilities include 2 and even 3."
First, it would be interesting to see a citation that that is the most common problem. Second, the "problem" described isn't really even a problem in most cases because indentation is for indentaton, not formatting, and any code that doesn't look right unless indented a certain width is sloppy code. Third, a common problem (in my experience) is inconsistent spaces-for-tabs, where part of the program has four space indents, others have five, or two, or eight.
I move that we have a general summary of the arguments for and against. In fact, I move that the whole issue get its own article.
SnappingTurtle ( talk) 19:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
What is a back tab key? Is it still in use today?-- 92.227.164.68 ( talk) 08:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Is there a way to make a tab in wiki markup, like the in HTML? - JamesyWamesy ( talk) 00:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
s in HTML by the MW engine and styled such that there is a little extra space between the paragraphs, obviating the need for the outmoded practice of indenting the first-line by either spaces or tabs. Arlo James Barnes 00:59, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
	
, which was described in the article, but not actually done until now. +
m
t
20:04, 14 February 2017 (UTC)FORTRAN was not the origin of the default setting of tab stops at 8 spaces. FORTRAN statements started in column 7, so FORTRAN would had favored tab stops at 6 spaces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.145.54.158 ( talk) 17:31, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
When discussing indentation in source code it is common to refer to the usage of a tab as a 'hard tab', in contrast to a 'soft tab'. This is mentioned on the Indentation and Indent style pages. Should it be referenced here?
Dukedave ( talk) 21:53, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
How did this go unnoticed? The TAB key is used in almost all multiplayer games to show scores and in singleplayer games it still has usage where it often shows the world map or the player's inventory, its usage goes back from DOOM(1994) where it was used to show the level's map. I will try to edit the page with that info, the problem is that I do not have any sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.93.153.156 ( talk) 08:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
I came to this page looking for a tab character I could copy-paste. However I can't seem to find one on the page. Please help! (This is actually serious. I will go back to Google and see if I can find one somewhere else.) - 91.125.149.132 ( talk) 00:04, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
. .I see it with Firefox, Chrome, Internet Explorer, Microsoft Edge. + m t 04:36, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
	
or 	
in HTML. In Windows you can write it directly with
Alt codes: 1) press the Alt button; 2) enter 09 on the Numpad keys; 3) release Alt.--
Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (
talk)
18:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)Many IDEs, especially on Windows, use a default horizontal tab size of 4, yet this has failed to eradicate the 8 standard.
Is it really necessary to speak of eradicating a long standing de facto standard? That seems a bit... editorializing. While it may be true that some Windows IDEs default to 4 character hard tab indents, this isn't some sort of conquest. Windows hasn't "eradicated" the LF-only line ending standard either. -- Mr z ( talk) 07:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
"In HTML the horizontal tab is coded using [..] or &Tab" is true I assume for HTML, but isn't for MediaWiki. See my edit summary (that actually translated the former to [invisible] tab). Possibly MediaWiki should be changed, or if not (internal) pages pointing to the former only, but should this page here mention MediaWiki (as internal pages point to this page)? comp.arch ( talk) 10:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Somebody added a "DUBIOUS" tag to the statement that "Tab-separated values (TSV) are a common, de facto standard". I'm not sure why someone would consider that dubious as I've seen them quite a bit. I'm coming from a UNIX background where traditional tools like sort, awk, and diff have worked with TSV for aeons, but UNIX never bothered with CSV (due to CSV's weird escape syntax). TSV is not just for old fogeys like me. They are still used: Want to parse the latest Unicode standard? Well, [Unihan_Readings.txt] [1], among other data files, is in TSV. The only thing dubious about the statement is whether TSV is a de facto standard. In my humble opinion, the article should drop the phrase "de facto" and simply state that “Tab-separated values (TSV) is a common standard”. TSV has been well described by the [United States Library of Congress] [2]. Note that the same page also states that, "The Library of Congress Recommended Formats Statement (RFS) includes TSV as a preferred format for datasets." 24.16.239.30 ( talk) 01:20, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
i find this line dubious:
"Despite the fact that five characters were the typical paragraph indentation on typewriters at that time, the horizontal tab size of eight evolved because as a power of two it was easier to calculate with the limited digital electronics available."
earlier in the paragraph it mentions that vertical tabs were 6 characters, so printers obviously had the technology for this.
also, if you need a power of two that's close to 5, why not choose 4?
i was always under the impression that this wide tab stop was for printing tables of numbers, such as in a TSV file. 8-space tabs are also useful for programming languages like assembly which are formatted into multiple columns. Binarycat64 ( talk) 05:23, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
The mention of horizontal tab set gives as example a C1 control for HTS (without context), and mixes it with similar verbiage about vertical tabs, pretending to cite ISO 6429 but omitting the widely-supported 7-bit form ESC H (see for example xterm's documentation). TEDickey ( talk) 23:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)