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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Since the controversial move was instigated, the lede has been edited to explicitly render "gender-critical feminism" a synonym for TERF, in wikivoice.
The source used actually says:
First a word on terminology. I use 'TERF' as a representation of what might be called the original trans-exclusionary feminist view, which I outline in the following section, and "gender critical' to represent more contemporary presentations of feminist trans-exclusion. I use "trans-exclusionary feminism' as an umbrella term encompassing both. As will be discussed, the application of these terms is complex and political. They represent positions that are interconnected and often interchangeable, indistinguishable and/or contradictory. Acknowledging these enmeshments as I advance, there is enough of a separable figurative TERF position from that of a figurative gender critical one, at least in how they are presented, to be usefully employed.
I have removed this sentence. I don't believe this is a claim that can be made in wikivoice, and certainly not in the lede. Void if removed ( talk) 21:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
A feminist who excludes the rights of transgender women from their advocacy of women's rights. They typically believe sex to be defined along biological lines and do not subscribe to the belief of gender as a social construct, which became a prominent school of thought in Second Wave feminism
the transatlantic movement against transgender rights made up of people variously identified as “gender-critical feminists” (in their own formulation) or “trans-exclusive radical feminists” (abbreviated TERFs, in the formulation of pro-trans advocates).
“What is a woman?” has been a constant refrain among “gender criticals,” even becoming the title of a documentary by alt-right media figure Matt Walsh, released by American far-right media company The Daily Wire
Billard, T. J. (2022). The politics of transgender health misinformation [Manuscript submitted for publication]. Department of Communication Studies, Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
The source by Thomas J Billard is unsuitable for use in an encyclopaedia – it is actually described at the top as ‘Conversation and Commentary: Anti-Terf’ ! As the other sources are also disputed, Aquillion should self-revert pending their attempt to gain consensus for their edits on 18 October . Sweet6970 ( talk) 17:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
This edit changed the text from "In academic discourse, there is no clear consensus on whether TERF constitutes a slur." to "Linguists and philosophers of language, while acknowledging that it is often pejorative, are skeptical of the idea that TERF is a slur" (in other words, there is a consensus and the matter is settled). This cites three sources:
But what is critical is that these are primary sources for their authors individual opinions on the matter. None of these sources survey the literature or poll the opinions of "linguists and philosophers of language" to arrive at a conclusion as to whether there is a consensus or not. What we have here is a bit like citing two random scientist-with-opinions and one cyclist-with-opinions and claiming something about the consensus of scientists on global warming. The first source is junk. The opinion of a trans activist is the opinion of one trans activist and of no greater merit in basing our work than the opinions of any gender critical feminist or anti-trans activist. The two linguist primary sources could at most be cited with attribution but not as though they represent consensus or no-consensus. The middle source is probably the most representative of all, which is that whether TERF is a slur depends on your values and your point of view. The current text needs removed. -- Colin° Talk 07:57, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
"A statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material. Stated simply, any statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors. Review articles, especially those printed in academic review journals that survey the literature, can help clarify academic consensus."
Determining if a word is a slur isn't amenable to the scientific method
Ivy sole publication on linguistics appears to be this "book symposium" piece where they disagree with a previous publication/academic and state their personal arguments
The middle source is an interesting analysis but obviously flawed
although [Saul] state[s] their belief that "TERF is not a slur" they make no attempt to explain why
the view that TERF is a misogynistic slur as a very marginal one. Loki ( talk) 19:30, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
In her dissertation on the use of the term, Anna-Louise Adams found TERF to be 'a gendered label, which is utilised by men to legitimise misogynistic language and behaviour': "TERF in itself is used as a word to describe women alongside violent rhetoric such as: punch a TERF, rape a TERF, kill a TERF, highlighting its dehumanising nature. Further, a number of participants reported that they had seen TERF used alongside words which represent uncleanliness, filth, or disease." Adams tells me the women she interviewed felt it was also conflated with 'old' and 'lesbian'.
This research focused on a qualitative description of women’s experiences of being labelled as TERFs. It has also delivered an account of gender-critical feminism; the branch of feminism which is typically afforded the status of TERF. It has explored the way that TERF is deployed, highlighting its presence within misogynistic e-bile. Furthermore, it has argued that TERF functions to legitimise homophobia towards lesbians, enabling the perpetuation of rape culture. The accuracy of the term has been discredited; the heterogeneity of women labelled as TERFs highlights that the term does not accurately describe the ideologies of all the women that are labelled. This is further supported by the usage of the term to conflate gender-critical feminism with far-right politics – two polarised ideologies. This conflation perpetuates e-bile and renders TERF esoteric. My data show the duality of usage present within TERF; many users of the term use it in the knowledge that it legitimises misogyny and violent threats towards women. Others are unfamiliar with this dichotomy and thus use the term as a descriptor, despite the fact that this thesis has shown that it is inaccurate.
The acronym has become so widely shared in social media activism and mainstream journalism that it has become almost a void, as it is applied to anyone expressing transphobic, prejudiced, bigoted or otherwise exclusionary views about trans men, trans women and all transgender and trans people. It is applied to those who are not feminist activists and would never identify themselves as feminists; it is put onto those who may be feminists but are certainly not Radical Feminists; it has become a shorthand for transphobic, and mostly applied to women
The ludicrous and quite fringe idea that TERF is somehow a "slur" is only promoted by (some) TERFs themselves, i.e. adherents of a fringe ideology. It should certainly not be presented as a mainstream idea. Numerous TERFs have used the term themselves, so the claim is more a rhetorical device intended to attack supporters of equality and human rights for LGBT+ people. The closest analogy would be if racists claimed that "racist" and "racism" are "slurs" when scholars and activists wrote about or criticized their racist ideology. -- Amanda A. Brant ( talk) 09:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
That an academic might write a paper stating their own belief that TERF is or is not a slur is of no higher regard to Wikipedia, from that source alone, than that academic, Brian, declaring what their favourite colour is, or football team.
We simply don't have good secondary sources or population reviews on what society thinks about "TERF". In their absence, we've ended up with this crazy situation where one dreadful academic paper, one fairly decent paper (that has no conclusion, Loki how many times do I have to point that out) and one magazine article are put on a pedestal as though those few author's opinions can represent "society". They can't.
Please go look at our other articles on religious or ethnic slurs. They do not depend on cyclists who once did a bit of philosophy.
pejorativein the text, although it's included in a category of LGBT-related slurs. Loki ( talk) 23:10, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
McKinnon does several times cite their own work, typically as it expands on the opinion they just gave, but that doesn't make it a secondary source for what McKinnon believes in March 2018 when they wrote that paper
I see you edited their Wikipedia article to claim "McKinnon's primary research focus is the philosophy of language". But the source doesn't say that. It doesn't mention language at all. It says "My primary research focuses on the relationship between knowledge and action. Specifically, much of my research currently focuses on the norms of assertion."
Any suggestion that this abstract philosophical work makes one an expert in judging whether a word is a slur is, to use a word in their paper, "ludicrous".
The elephant in the room is McKinnon is transgender and is a transgender activist, writing a paper about a word used by transgender activists to label and disparage women who hold hostile views about her very identity.
"both the McKinnon and Saul sources are secondary, since they're both professional opinions based on other research. McKinnon even cites her own sources. This means that the only academic source under discussion that's even primary is David and McCready, since they're advancing a novel theory of slurs in their paper"are entirely wrong. And your new claim that "McKinnon cites the academic literature regarding slurs to support her point" does not make her a secondary source on the view that TERF is a slur. None of their sources, not a single one, mentions TERF. McKinnon uses those little 3 things to indicate they are citing something. There are not little 3 anywhere near their words
"and, ludicrously, claim that ‘TERF’ is a misogynistic slur.". That comes entirely from their own head. Later she goes on to say
"The idea—it seems to be—is that ‘TERF’ is a term used to denigrate women, and so it is a slur. However, this is an absurd, nonsensical view of the nature of slurs."This final sentence does have a 12 after it, citing no less than five sources. Let's examine this claim. Firstly, her own words "it seems to be" indicates that this is her own speculation, "that ‘TERF’ is a term used to denigrate women" and that this and this alone is the reason anyone might consider it a slur. Then she goes on to say "this is an absurd, nonsensical view of the nature of slurs" which has the citations. The conclusion I make of this is that these sources will back up the claim that "a term used to denigrate women => slur" is "an absurd, nonsensical view of the nature of slurs". So you could argue this specific part of their argument is secondary (that a term used to denigrate women is a slur) but not that TERF is such a term or that this is the only accusation about TERF that might qualify it for being a slur. That's McKinnon's invention here. (It is interesting that the "The Instability of Slurs" paper would in fact count this as a component of a slur, so maybe not so absurd and nonsensical after all). Let's examine the four sources:
"These are expressions that target groups on the basis of race (‘nigger’), nationality (‘kraut’), religion (‘kike’), gender (‘bitch’), sexual orientation (‘fag’), immigrant status (‘wetback’) and sundry other demographics". Hmm, a term used to denigrate women vs targeting groups on the basis of gender. That's a tick for that one. They go on to say
"The consensus answer to the first question [Why are some confrontations with slurs offensive?] is that slurs, as a matter of convention, carry negative attitudes towards targeted groups."That's another tick. When they ask
"How can words fluctuate both in their status as slurs and in their power to offend?and go on to say
"Our positive proposal, in brief, is that slurs are prohibited words not on account of any content they get across, but rather because of relevant edicts surrounding their prohibition.In other words, one can't really analyse the term itself to determine it is a slur, it is determined to be slur (prohibited) by society, and our views on whether a word is or isn't prohibited can change. Another big tick. They say {{tq|"A relatively wide-spread (though not universal; see Williamson) assumption about slurs is that each has a neutral co-extensive partner." From the examples they give, we can clearly say that "TERF" has alternatives that do not cause offence (gender critical) or are more specific (Alison, who opposes gender self-ID, wrote...). Another tick. They say
"Slurs target classes; pejoratives can be more individualized"again another tick in that TERF targets that person's membership of an ideology rather than that they have specific failings (e.g. if someone directly attacked a transgender person, say). In their conclusion they argue that the may widespread views on how to determine whether a word is a slur have their limitations (though they aren't "absurd, nonsensical", just incomplete) and they prefer their proposal that society itself determines if a word is a slur and there ain't nothing a linguist or philosopher of language or nuclear physicist can write to argue otherwise:
"slurs are prohibited words; and as such, their uses are offensive to whomever these prohibitions matter". This paper does not "support" Mckinnon's argument. It demolishes it.
"First, Stanley’s account of propaganda usefully illuminates how the ‘arguments’ of TERFs constitute propaganda,crucially based on a flawed ideology.McKinnon's trans status doesn't mean they are hopelessly biased, any more than a man is hopelessly destined to be sexist. But this is an activist utterly comfortable with using the word TERFs to describe a group they detest and also consider a bit thick (with 'arguments' being in scare quotes because they are ridiculous). I don't know, this is a bit like reading an academic paper where the author calls black people the N word and then goes on to argue that the N word isn't a slur. The words "Well, you would say that, wouldn't you" come to mind. -- Colin° Talk 19:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
I've just watched Dr. Rachel McKinnon: TERF 101. In some ways it is better than their academic paper in that they do attempt an argument. They do admit there are lots of competing theories on what makes a slur but then wave their hands around a bit with a trust me they all back up my case claim. What they don't mention is that the clever folk realise they are trying to tease out common features of a slur but admit that there's no way of coming up with definitive algorithm for determining if a word is a slur: a slur is a slur because people who matter say it is and enough of society agree. But anyway, they mention one rule that a slur has a non-pejorative correlate. And, chuckle to themselves, the non-pejorative correlate of TERF is trans-exclusionary radical feminist. Which they claim is itself. Except it isn't. Nobody (much) is saying "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" is a slur. So next they mention another rule is that it is a really bad derogatory word. But again say it can't be derogatory because derogatory words are always mean whereas .... trans-exclusionary radical feminist isn't mean and hateful. And anyway, since trans people are suffering so much bad stuff, being a TERF is as bad as being a racist, and racist isn't derogatory, it's accurate. So having concluded that TERF can't be a slur because "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" isn't a slur they then close with a comment that sadly a number of their fellow activists are using the word TERF as an umbrella term for people who don't like trans women or people who want to exclude them from women's spaces, even if they aren't feminists or are even anti-feminist. They say no, we shouldn't use TERF like that, we should continue to use it only for radical feminists who exclude trans women from the politics. Well the ship sailed on that one. But hold on, let's rewind to the start of the video. "what is this term TERF, what does it mean, and importantly is it a slur? One reason I want to do this video is that there's this group of people loosely associated who take it upon themselves to focus on hating trans women...." Ok, so right at the start of the video, McKinnon is equating TERF with a group of people who hate trans women. Or assholes as she later calls them. -- Colin° Talk 16:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Since the controversial move was instigated, the lede has been edited to explicitly render "gender-critical feminism" a synonym for TERF, in wikivoice.
The source used actually says:
First a word on terminology. I use 'TERF' as a representation of what might be called the original trans-exclusionary feminist view, which I outline in the following section, and "gender critical' to represent more contemporary presentations of feminist trans-exclusion. I use "trans-exclusionary feminism' as an umbrella term encompassing both. As will be discussed, the application of these terms is complex and political. They represent positions that are interconnected and often interchangeable, indistinguishable and/or contradictory. Acknowledging these enmeshments as I advance, there is enough of a separable figurative TERF position from that of a figurative gender critical one, at least in how they are presented, to be usefully employed.
I have removed this sentence. I don't believe this is a claim that can be made in wikivoice, and certainly not in the lede. Void if removed ( talk) 21:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
A feminist who excludes the rights of transgender women from their advocacy of women's rights. They typically believe sex to be defined along biological lines and do not subscribe to the belief of gender as a social construct, which became a prominent school of thought in Second Wave feminism
the transatlantic movement against transgender rights made up of people variously identified as “gender-critical feminists” (in their own formulation) or “trans-exclusive radical feminists” (abbreviated TERFs, in the formulation of pro-trans advocates).
“What is a woman?” has been a constant refrain among “gender criticals,” even becoming the title of a documentary by alt-right media figure Matt Walsh, released by American far-right media company The Daily Wire
Billard, T. J. (2022). The politics of transgender health misinformation [Manuscript submitted for publication]. Department of Communication Studies, Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
The source by Thomas J Billard is unsuitable for use in an encyclopaedia – it is actually described at the top as ‘Conversation and Commentary: Anti-Terf’ ! As the other sources are also disputed, Aquillion should self-revert pending their attempt to gain consensus for their edits on 18 October . Sweet6970 ( talk) 17:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
This edit changed the text from "In academic discourse, there is no clear consensus on whether TERF constitutes a slur." to "Linguists and philosophers of language, while acknowledging that it is often pejorative, are skeptical of the idea that TERF is a slur" (in other words, there is a consensus and the matter is settled). This cites three sources:
But what is critical is that these are primary sources for their authors individual opinions on the matter. None of these sources survey the literature or poll the opinions of "linguists and philosophers of language" to arrive at a conclusion as to whether there is a consensus or not. What we have here is a bit like citing two random scientist-with-opinions and one cyclist-with-opinions and claiming something about the consensus of scientists on global warming. The first source is junk. The opinion of a trans activist is the opinion of one trans activist and of no greater merit in basing our work than the opinions of any gender critical feminist or anti-trans activist. The two linguist primary sources could at most be cited with attribution but not as though they represent consensus or no-consensus. The middle source is probably the most representative of all, which is that whether TERF is a slur depends on your values and your point of view. The current text needs removed. -- Colin° Talk 07:57, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
"A statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material. Stated simply, any statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors. Review articles, especially those printed in academic review journals that survey the literature, can help clarify academic consensus."
Determining if a word is a slur isn't amenable to the scientific method
Ivy sole publication on linguistics appears to be this "book symposium" piece where they disagree with a previous publication/academic and state their personal arguments
The middle source is an interesting analysis but obviously flawed
although [Saul] state[s] their belief that "TERF is not a slur" they make no attempt to explain why
the view that TERF is a misogynistic slur as a very marginal one. Loki ( talk) 19:30, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
In her dissertation on the use of the term, Anna-Louise Adams found TERF to be 'a gendered label, which is utilised by men to legitimise misogynistic language and behaviour': "TERF in itself is used as a word to describe women alongside violent rhetoric such as: punch a TERF, rape a TERF, kill a TERF, highlighting its dehumanising nature. Further, a number of participants reported that they had seen TERF used alongside words which represent uncleanliness, filth, or disease." Adams tells me the women she interviewed felt it was also conflated with 'old' and 'lesbian'.
This research focused on a qualitative description of women’s experiences of being labelled as TERFs. It has also delivered an account of gender-critical feminism; the branch of feminism which is typically afforded the status of TERF. It has explored the way that TERF is deployed, highlighting its presence within misogynistic e-bile. Furthermore, it has argued that TERF functions to legitimise homophobia towards lesbians, enabling the perpetuation of rape culture. The accuracy of the term has been discredited; the heterogeneity of women labelled as TERFs highlights that the term does not accurately describe the ideologies of all the women that are labelled. This is further supported by the usage of the term to conflate gender-critical feminism with far-right politics – two polarised ideologies. This conflation perpetuates e-bile and renders TERF esoteric. My data show the duality of usage present within TERF; many users of the term use it in the knowledge that it legitimises misogyny and violent threats towards women. Others are unfamiliar with this dichotomy and thus use the term as a descriptor, despite the fact that this thesis has shown that it is inaccurate.
The acronym has become so widely shared in social media activism and mainstream journalism that it has become almost a void, as it is applied to anyone expressing transphobic, prejudiced, bigoted or otherwise exclusionary views about trans men, trans women and all transgender and trans people. It is applied to those who are not feminist activists and would never identify themselves as feminists; it is put onto those who may be feminists but are certainly not Radical Feminists; it has become a shorthand for transphobic, and mostly applied to women
The ludicrous and quite fringe idea that TERF is somehow a "slur" is only promoted by (some) TERFs themselves, i.e. adherents of a fringe ideology. It should certainly not be presented as a mainstream idea. Numerous TERFs have used the term themselves, so the claim is more a rhetorical device intended to attack supporters of equality and human rights for LGBT+ people. The closest analogy would be if racists claimed that "racist" and "racism" are "slurs" when scholars and activists wrote about or criticized their racist ideology. -- Amanda A. Brant ( talk) 09:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
That an academic might write a paper stating their own belief that TERF is or is not a slur is of no higher regard to Wikipedia, from that source alone, than that academic, Brian, declaring what their favourite colour is, or football team.
We simply don't have good secondary sources or population reviews on what society thinks about "TERF". In their absence, we've ended up with this crazy situation where one dreadful academic paper, one fairly decent paper (that has no conclusion, Loki how many times do I have to point that out) and one magazine article are put on a pedestal as though those few author's opinions can represent "society". They can't.
Please go look at our other articles on religious or ethnic slurs. They do not depend on cyclists who once did a bit of philosophy.
pejorativein the text, although it's included in a category of LGBT-related slurs. Loki ( talk) 23:10, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
McKinnon does several times cite their own work, typically as it expands on the opinion they just gave, but that doesn't make it a secondary source for what McKinnon believes in March 2018 when they wrote that paper
I see you edited their Wikipedia article to claim "McKinnon's primary research focus is the philosophy of language". But the source doesn't say that. It doesn't mention language at all. It says "My primary research focuses on the relationship between knowledge and action. Specifically, much of my research currently focuses on the norms of assertion."
Any suggestion that this abstract philosophical work makes one an expert in judging whether a word is a slur is, to use a word in their paper, "ludicrous".
The elephant in the room is McKinnon is transgender and is a transgender activist, writing a paper about a word used by transgender activists to label and disparage women who hold hostile views about her very identity.
"both the McKinnon and Saul sources are secondary, since they're both professional opinions based on other research. McKinnon even cites her own sources. This means that the only academic source under discussion that's even primary is David and McCready, since they're advancing a novel theory of slurs in their paper"are entirely wrong. And your new claim that "McKinnon cites the academic literature regarding slurs to support her point" does not make her a secondary source on the view that TERF is a slur. None of their sources, not a single one, mentions TERF. McKinnon uses those little 3 things to indicate they are citing something. There are not little 3 anywhere near their words
"and, ludicrously, claim that ‘TERF’ is a misogynistic slur.". That comes entirely from their own head. Later she goes on to say
"The idea—it seems to be—is that ‘TERF’ is a term used to denigrate women, and so it is a slur. However, this is an absurd, nonsensical view of the nature of slurs."This final sentence does have a 12 after it, citing no less than five sources. Let's examine this claim. Firstly, her own words "it seems to be" indicates that this is her own speculation, "that ‘TERF’ is a term used to denigrate women" and that this and this alone is the reason anyone might consider it a slur. Then she goes on to say "this is an absurd, nonsensical view of the nature of slurs" which has the citations. The conclusion I make of this is that these sources will back up the claim that "a term used to denigrate women => slur" is "an absurd, nonsensical view of the nature of slurs". So you could argue this specific part of their argument is secondary (that a term used to denigrate women is a slur) but not that TERF is such a term or that this is the only accusation about TERF that might qualify it for being a slur. That's McKinnon's invention here. (It is interesting that the "The Instability of Slurs" paper would in fact count this as a component of a slur, so maybe not so absurd and nonsensical after all). Let's examine the four sources:
"These are expressions that target groups on the basis of race (‘nigger’), nationality (‘kraut’), religion (‘kike’), gender (‘bitch’), sexual orientation (‘fag’), immigrant status (‘wetback’) and sundry other demographics". Hmm, a term used to denigrate women vs targeting groups on the basis of gender. That's a tick for that one. They go on to say
"The consensus answer to the first question [Why are some confrontations with slurs offensive?] is that slurs, as a matter of convention, carry negative attitudes towards targeted groups."That's another tick. When they ask
"How can words fluctuate both in their status as slurs and in their power to offend?and go on to say
"Our positive proposal, in brief, is that slurs are prohibited words not on account of any content they get across, but rather because of relevant edicts surrounding their prohibition.In other words, one can't really analyse the term itself to determine it is a slur, it is determined to be slur (prohibited) by society, and our views on whether a word is or isn't prohibited can change. Another big tick. They say {{tq|"A relatively wide-spread (though not universal; see Williamson) assumption about slurs is that each has a neutral co-extensive partner." From the examples they give, we can clearly say that "TERF" has alternatives that do not cause offence (gender critical) or are more specific (Alison, who opposes gender self-ID, wrote...). Another tick. They say
"Slurs target classes; pejoratives can be more individualized"again another tick in that TERF targets that person's membership of an ideology rather than that they have specific failings (e.g. if someone directly attacked a transgender person, say). In their conclusion they argue that the may widespread views on how to determine whether a word is a slur have their limitations (though they aren't "absurd, nonsensical", just incomplete) and they prefer their proposal that society itself determines if a word is a slur and there ain't nothing a linguist or philosopher of language or nuclear physicist can write to argue otherwise:
"slurs are prohibited words; and as such, their uses are offensive to whomever these prohibitions matter". This paper does not "support" Mckinnon's argument. It demolishes it.
"First, Stanley’s account of propaganda usefully illuminates how the ‘arguments’ of TERFs constitute propaganda,crucially based on a flawed ideology.McKinnon's trans status doesn't mean they are hopelessly biased, any more than a man is hopelessly destined to be sexist. But this is an activist utterly comfortable with using the word TERFs to describe a group they detest and also consider a bit thick (with 'arguments' being in scare quotes because they are ridiculous). I don't know, this is a bit like reading an academic paper where the author calls black people the N word and then goes on to argue that the N word isn't a slur. The words "Well, you would say that, wouldn't you" come to mind. -- Colin° Talk 19:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
I've just watched Dr. Rachel McKinnon: TERF 101. In some ways it is better than their academic paper in that they do attempt an argument. They do admit there are lots of competing theories on what makes a slur but then wave their hands around a bit with a trust me they all back up my case claim. What they don't mention is that the clever folk realise they are trying to tease out common features of a slur but admit that there's no way of coming up with definitive algorithm for determining if a word is a slur: a slur is a slur because people who matter say it is and enough of society agree. But anyway, they mention one rule that a slur has a non-pejorative correlate. And, chuckle to themselves, the non-pejorative correlate of TERF is trans-exclusionary radical feminist. Which they claim is itself. Except it isn't. Nobody (much) is saying "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" is a slur. So next they mention another rule is that it is a really bad derogatory word. But again say it can't be derogatory because derogatory words are always mean whereas .... trans-exclusionary radical feminist isn't mean and hateful. And anyway, since trans people are suffering so much bad stuff, being a TERF is as bad as being a racist, and racist isn't derogatory, it's accurate. So having concluded that TERF can't be a slur because "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" isn't a slur they then close with a comment that sadly a number of their fellow activists are using the word TERF as an umbrella term for people who don't like trans women or people who want to exclude them from women's spaces, even if they aren't feminists or are even anti-feminist. They say no, we shouldn't use TERF like that, we should continue to use it only for radical feminists who exclude trans women from the politics. Well the ship sailed on that one. But hold on, let's rewind to the start of the video. "what is this term TERF, what does it mean, and importantly is it a slur? One reason I want to do this video is that there's this group of people loosely associated who take it upon themselves to focus on hating trans women...." Ok, so right at the start of the video, McKinnon is equating TERF with a group of people who hate trans women. Or assholes as she later calls them. -- Colin° Talk 16:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)