This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The whole section seems to be written by a fanboy and doesn't cite sources. To improve the quality of the article, perhaps it should be removed? Edward Sandstig 01:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The section appears to be pasted verbatim from Defence Journal (if anyone knows otherwise, my apologies). I've reverted to the previous revision. — Michael Z. 2006-06-15 02:23 Z
The author of this page seems to be consistently 5 to 10 years behind the curve in his understanding of Russian and Ukranian tank technology, and several statements are glaringly incorrect. I have made a number of corrections. I welcome discussion of them.
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 17:15, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've changed the description of the T-72 as a "medium tank" to a "main battle tank", as that fits the tank better. "Medium tank" is more of a historical term than something that is used for modern tanks, as the distinction between heavy and medium tanks has all but disappeared.
-- Martin Wisse 21:48, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ergh, this article is a mess. Full of duplications and contradictions. Anyone care to sort it out? I hesitate, due to a lack of in-depth knowledge of the upgrades performed on exported Russian tanks... Dan100 19:37, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
Parsecboy 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I never said the Patton series were "pieces of crap", I merely stated that they were outclassed by their Soviet contemporaries in the T-64. Again, the reason for an outnumbered Marine unit's victory over the Iraqi Army at Kuwait Airport is primarily the vast difference in training, coupled with the M60s being modernized with ERA, etc., while the Iraqi tanks were monkey models. Why is it hard to understand that the only Soviet tanks the Western armies have ever fought were lower quality export models? The munitions supplied for the T-72 had as much as half the penetrating power of the original Soviet model. Your argument about armor protection is only relevant to the export models. The Soviet tanks had far better protection. Parsecboy 13:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Is that correct (i.e. 2/3 the price of an M1), or should it be one third the price of an M1? — Michael Z. 2005-08-5 05:05 Z
Also, that refers to its intended cost, so it means in the 1970s. Can you quote meaningful prices in the USSR, or is that comparing apples to oranges? Export prices are probably easier to peg, but the difference wouldn't be as dramatic. —
Michael
Z. 2005-08-5 16:09 Z
Since the book was published around 1999 - I would figure those for 1998-9 prices. Seems like the M1's cost has inflated a lot of 6 years.
I notice there's a new article on the T-72MP upgrade package, with next to no text. Unless someone is planning to write an extensive article on the subject, I think the modernizations should be described here. The categories Category:Ukrainian armoured fighting vehicles and Category:Modern tanks can be added here too. — Michael Z. 2005-10-19 18:07 Z
The company that builds them is the same company that builds the t-90 and also other variants such as BRIDGE LAYER http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/mtu.htm
МТУ-72 ENGINEER VEHICLE FOR REMOVAL OF OBSTACLES http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/imr.htm ИМР-3М
ARMOURED DEMINING VEHICLE http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/bmr.htm БМР-3М
ARMORED RECOVERY VEHICLE http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/brem.htm БРЭМ-1
ARMOURED DOZER-SNOWPLOUGH http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/tbs.htm ТБС-86
And ofcurse
TANK T-90C http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/t_90.htm
Also added range with barrels which is 600km
Deng 2005-11-28 5.15 CET
How is this a strength or weakness? An internal explosion has killed the crew, and what matter whether it causes the turret to fly off?
Incidentally, I think internal explosions commonly remove turrets of many types of tanks; Iraq just happened to be using T-72s. — Michael Z. 2005-12-12 22:39 Z
The question is how likely is internal explosions. The T-72 passanger compartment stores more shells than the ammo compartment, and the casing is inflamible. This means more likely, and faster, secondary explosions. M1A1 Abrams has no shells stored in the crew compartment except I believe the ready rack. Challengers have a segrated ammo compartment as well. Hence, secondary effect for either is going to be a lot lower.
Chin, Cheng-chuan
I believe the following are incorrect:
"Even the most recently produced T-72s are not especially well protected against conventional threats (with the notable exception of the T-72BM); NATO standard 120 mm/L60 guns, firing the M829 series depleted uranium APFSDS rounds or German Tungsten DM-53 can kill them on the first shot from any angle out past two kilometers, and even the older NATO standard 105 mm/L68 can kill a T-72 at a kilometer or more—at least with depleted uranium ammunition.[Citation needed] (in fact it could kill any modern tank as well because no armour offering effective protection against DU APFSDS exists)"
T-72BM is produced at 1988. Its armor protection is more than respectable, even in today; as for the potency of DU APFSDS, many existing armor of today is capable of defeating them, since M829 is known to have been defeated with composite armor combined with Kontakt-5 ERA. M829A1 is a powerful round, yet its speculated penetration value--610mm RHA--is lower than that of M1A1HA. The A2 is the same story. M1A1 with armor upgraded to M1A2 standard and other upgraded tanks of the same generation could withstand it, including the T-80UM and T-90M, a T-72 derivative. It was believed that the A3 model has an obsecenely penetration value--960mm at 2km--but that was the result of over estimating its velocity. It turns out that the A3 model was slower, not faster, then the previous models, as the same experts who did the initial estimation readily admits. The DU sabot is the most formidable armor piercing bullet there is. It is not invincible.
Also, the stuff about improving crew survivablity by improving fire control is nonesense. The fire supression system in the T-72 can be improved alright, but the fire control system? Taking the shells stored in the ammo compartment would reduce the total number of ammunition carried to 20 something, and no improvement in FCS would justify that--for urban fighting against infantry type threats that's plenty, but that's all the small ammo load can handle.
-Chin, Cheng-chuan
I sick of allot of propaganda,the T-72's gun on certain models was thought to be not that good,but the real reasons were flaws in the ammo. Many people think that a T-72 is not able to take out an Abrams,but a T-72 armed with a AT-11 Sniper/Svir would knock out an Abrams with little or no problems. Dudtz 4/24/06 8:03 PM EST
The gun on the T-72 isn't really innacurate,the cheaper ammo that was often used by non Soviet countries was innacurate and underpowered. Dudtz 6/17/06 6:45 PM EST
Can someone rewrite this article from a more neutral point of view, without always comparing the T-72 to modern Western tanks (how about comparing it to the tanks of its generation), and without going off topic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.98.96 ( talk • contribs)
I fixed what I could, like the part about Iraq, but I am not an expert on tank characteristics, so I can't rewrite that much.
One thing that was neglected in this article was that the T-72's autoloader had the habit of wanting to stuff-in the arm of gunner. It was not unheard of to see a Soviet soldier who had lost an arm to his own T-72 tank. [4] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.138.139.155 ( talk • contribs) .
Oh God, it's ignorant people like the person who posted the arm-eating autoloader lies that post the most disrespectful and disinformed propaganda about Russian tanks. T-72's autoloaders don't "eat" anyone's arms. It's pure and utter lie! Man, the whole T-72 article was written by an ignorant jerk with no respect or knowledge for the T-72 and its performance. Not only are there numerous lies and ungrounded speculation, he didn't write an article about T-72, he wrote a comparisson of "T-72 vs...", and even that was filled with lies and disinformation. I have been reading about T-72 for a long time, in books and various publications and they all put this low-life of a person to shame. I don't know yet where to start but I'm thinking of editing this whole thing to a more neutral article that mostly concentrates on technical stuff. Just look at M1 Abrams article here - more propaganda from ignorant people that list only its positives, even though there are tons of negatives, as well as never-ending Pentagon propaganda and lies. I don't even know if I should bother, there are already reputable sources on the net about T-72 that debunk all these lies from jerks who know nothing about T-72.
That is definitely a myth. Anybody who has been inside a T-72 and has a little bit of common sense realises that it's almost an impossibility because of the protective shields on both gunner's and TC's sides. Even if this shield is removed, it would take either a very stupid person or a masochist to lose his arm, simply because any of either TC's or gunner's actions during combat doest not require to put their arms in the way of the ramming device. --Renius 21:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
No arm can get stuffed into the breach because the gunner would have his arms nowhere near the rammer at this point. He would have both hands on the gun controls, keeping the optics on the target and being ready to fire when the little "gun ready" shows up. The shield were there from the beginning to make sure that the subframe, which ejects the spent case stub and moves into a circa 45 degree angle, does not catch the arm of either gunner or commander.
Overall, this article seems to reflect the knowledge of the early to mid-seventies. 82.195.186.220 22:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Dag Patchett, 21 Feb 2007
WAIT A SECOND. The T-72 is NOT the most common Soviet tank in the late 1980s. It was the T-80. The first line of this entry is wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.239.222.84 ( talk • contribs) .
T-72 T-80 T-64 T-62 T-55 T-54 PT-76 Total 1990 5,092 4,876 3,982 2,021 3,130 1,593 602 21,296 1991 5,092 4,907 3,982 2,021 3,130 1,593 602 21,327 1992 2,293 3,254 1,038 948 1,266 539 483 9,821
I stand corrected. My information is generated by a tank-net inquiry which I might have misinterpreted. Do you have information on the number of T-64's in service? -Chin, Cheng-chuan
I've changed the specs table on the right from T-72A (earliest version of T-72) to T-72BM (latest version of T-72) with the correct values, as well as fixed some missing values. The original author, in his ignorance, for some reason chose the earliest T-72 model (T-72A) to base the specs and reviews on, when it's well known that T-72BM entered service in 1989.
Will make additional changes later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirabell ( talk • contribs)
i would think the best way to go would be like the patton article...show the inital "A" specs, and then also the upgrades for the "BM" model Parsecboy 13:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The article was finally updated with a newer/better version that mainly focuses on technical stuff and debunks all of the nonsensical propaganda drivel against T-72 that was posted before.
Enjoy! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirabell ( talk • contribs)
You call this new and better? "Overall, as it was discovered, during the entire operation "Desert Storm", using all means, there were 14 (fourteen) T-72 tanks destroyed, including those, which were destroyed by the retreating Iraqi troops." Give me a break. -Some dork
Someone should still make this article neutral.
That is the stupidest thing that I ever seen. All tanks (and this include the western tanks) loose, at least, their turrets when their whole ammunitions explode. Only the newest tanks with auto-loaders have their ammunitions stored out of the crew compartment (T-84 Oplot, Black eagle and Leclerc). Here I have an image of a Panzer IV completely destroyed by an internal explosion and we do not call the panzer IV "the desintegrating tank"! Kovlovsky 19:11 30 april 2006
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/germany/pz4_03.jpg
We may not bad mouth the Panzer IV but the Sherman tank's infamous nickname, Ronson, is certainly mentioned. The question is not whether the reference ruffles feathers but whether it's accurate. 198.111.39.17 02:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The Carousal stores only 22 shells. The vast majority of the on-board main gun ammunition of the T-72 are stored in the crew compartment, thus made vulnerable to penetrating shells. -Chin, Cheng-chuan
how come aircraft have a comparable craft but not tanks
I've removed this statement: "The main gun of the T-72 has a mean error of one metre at a range of 1,800 m, which is considered substandard today." because it is not true. Yugoslav copy of the T-72 on the test in Pakistan has placed 6 rounds in the same target hole, disipation was about 15 cm, and tank was moving while firing and distance was 1500-2000 meters.
I think that people here should try to compare the T-72 to his contemporaries before comparing it to modern MBT, it would be more fair. Remember that the T-72 was intended to fight against the american M-60, M-48, perhaps the M-103, the french AMX-30, the British Centurion (perhaps the Conqueror)and the Chieftain, which is, I think, the only enemy tank that was, more or less, his equal. After this, it is right to compare it to the newest tank to evaluate his combat capabilities in a modern battlefield. I think that the article would be greatly improved. There are also a lot of uncited informations involving numbers or appreciation. It gives a smell of subjectivity to the article. Kovlovsky 17:33 30 april 2006
I notice that the superb pictures of the new T-72BM (as opposed to the Kontakt-V equipped T-72B(M)) from E1.RU have been put on the page- is that in accordance with Wiki's rule on copyright? Further, I wonder if the BMPT belongs here or should have its own entry? Beryoza 07:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
while the article does note that "t-72"s used by the iraqis in 1991 and 2003 were 'downgraded export versions' it fails to mention that many of these tanks were not even that, but were instead the 'Lion of Babylon' tank, which was IRAQI-BUILT. so, the 't-72s' faced by abrams tanks in gulf wars 1 and 2 were iraqi-built copies OF the soviet/russian export version of the T-72 (which was itself inferior to the original t-72). this is twice removed from the T-72 used by the red army. this is the case with much of the other 'russian' equipment used by middle-eastern armies as well. export variants are not the same quality! and copies of said variants are even less so.
tired of noting this trend.
"its rate of fire depends very much on the state of repair of the autoloader, which is necessary due to the extremely small and cramped interior space in the turret, which prevents the addition of a fourth crew member as a loader."
I have removed this line from "which is necessary" onwards. The sentence misrepresents the Design intent of the autoloader. The decision to adopt an autoloader was to allow for the reduction of the crew tank size as a result - The sentence implies that the small size of the turret is a design flaw (rather than an intentional feature) which has been patched up by using an autoloader. Besides, the presence of the autoloader and the resoning behind it is explained elsewhere in the article.
I have also added a sentence to the Introduction of the article attempting to put the T72 into context with the tanks that entered service at around the same time. I'm hoping that it might balance out the inevitable comparisons to the M1 if the reader is made aware that the T-72 belongs to the previous generation of tank design... 86.132.51.63 22:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
the first line in the section calls it a "common myth", but then goes on to say that it does, in fact, have a lesser ability to depress its main gun. so which is it? is it a myth? or is it fact? if there aren't any replies to this in a few days, i'm going to edit out the "myth" statement. Parsecboy 13:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I was just passing by this page and was having trouble with the following paragraph.
Armour
Armour protection of the T-72 was strengthened with each succeeding generation. The original T-72 turret is made from conventional cast armour. It is believe the maximum thickness of 280mm, the nose is about 80mm and the glacis of the new laminated armour is 200mm thick, which when incline gives about 500-600mm LOS thickness. Late model T-72 features composite armour protection.
In particular,
It is believe the maximum thickness of 280mm, the nose is about 80mm and the glacis of the new laminated armour is 200mm thick, which when incline gives about 500-600mm LOS thickness. L
I don't know enough about the subject to be confident in
rewording this, but it's awfully hard to understand.
If somone has a minute, this paragraph could use a little care.
-
Rockthing 06:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I'm also hesitant to make the change, but here's my alternative:
"It is believed that the T-72's armour has a maximum thickness of 280mm. The new laminated armour is about 80mm thick at the tank's nose, and about 200mm thick at the glacis. Due to the armour's sloping, LOS thickness is 500-600mm. Late model T-72's feature composite armour protection."
Someone more daring please fix her up! 203.45.85.74 14:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)Max
tK T-72 equipped with the Russian TPDK-1 is designed to be zeroed for APDS ammunition with a muzzle velocity of 18oom/s.At this range the tangent elevation for the HE and the HEAT round is automatically adjusted.With the invent of soft core ammunition with lesser muzzle velocity the problem of zeroing has been increased,especially in respect to the HE and the HEAT ammunition.all inputs on zeroing and zeroing problems of the tank are welcome here. 59.94.253.222 12:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)guederian.
The statement that 4.3 seconds per shot is "impossible for any human loaders" are blatantly untrue. H. R. McMaster, Captain of Eagle Troop, 2nd ACR of Battle of 73 Easting fame said that his exceptional loader could "load one shot every three seconds". This is available on youtube. US Army loader qualification course asks for one shot every four seconds, if memory serves.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The whole section seems to be written by a fanboy and doesn't cite sources. To improve the quality of the article, perhaps it should be removed? Edward Sandstig 01:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The section appears to be pasted verbatim from Defence Journal (if anyone knows otherwise, my apologies). I've reverted to the previous revision. — Michael Z. 2006-06-15 02:23 Z
The author of this page seems to be consistently 5 to 10 years behind the curve in his understanding of Russian and Ukranian tank technology, and several statements are glaringly incorrect. I have made a number of corrections. I welcome discussion of them.
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 17:15, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've changed the description of the T-72 as a "medium tank" to a "main battle tank", as that fits the tank better. "Medium tank" is more of a historical term than something that is used for modern tanks, as the distinction between heavy and medium tanks has all but disappeared.
-- Martin Wisse 21:48, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ergh, this article is a mess. Full of duplications and contradictions. Anyone care to sort it out? I hesitate, due to a lack of in-depth knowledge of the upgrades performed on exported Russian tanks... Dan100 19:37, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
Parsecboy 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I never said the Patton series were "pieces of crap", I merely stated that they were outclassed by their Soviet contemporaries in the T-64. Again, the reason for an outnumbered Marine unit's victory over the Iraqi Army at Kuwait Airport is primarily the vast difference in training, coupled with the M60s being modernized with ERA, etc., while the Iraqi tanks were monkey models. Why is it hard to understand that the only Soviet tanks the Western armies have ever fought were lower quality export models? The munitions supplied for the T-72 had as much as half the penetrating power of the original Soviet model. Your argument about armor protection is only relevant to the export models. The Soviet tanks had far better protection. Parsecboy 13:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Is that correct (i.e. 2/3 the price of an M1), or should it be one third the price of an M1? — Michael Z. 2005-08-5 05:05 Z
Also, that refers to its intended cost, so it means in the 1970s. Can you quote meaningful prices in the USSR, or is that comparing apples to oranges? Export prices are probably easier to peg, but the difference wouldn't be as dramatic. —
Michael
Z. 2005-08-5 16:09 Z
Since the book was published around 1999 - I would figure those for 1998-9 prices. Seems like the M1's cost has inflated a lot of 6 years.
I notice there's a new article on the T-72MP upgrade package, with next to no text. Unless someone is planning to write an extensive article on the subject, I think the modernizations should be described here. The categories Category:Ukrainian armoured fighting vehicles and Category:Modern tanks can be added here too. — Michael Z. 2005-10-19 18:07 Z
The company that builds them is the same company that builds the t-90 and also other variants such as BRIDGE LAYER http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/mtu.htm
МТУ-72 ENGINEER VEHICLE FOR REMOVAL OF OBSTACLES http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/imr.htm ИМР-3М
ARMOURED DEMINING VEHICLE http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/bmr.htm БМР-3М
ARMORED RECOVERY VEHICLE http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/brem.htm БРЭМ-1
ARMOURED DOZER-SNOWPLOUGH http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/tbs.htm ТБС-86
And ofcurse
TANK T-90C http://www.uvz.ru/eng/edata/euvz/eprodukt/mprod/t_90.htm
Also added range with barrels which is 600km
Deng 2005-11-28 5.15 CET
How is this a strength or weakness? An internal explosion has killed the crew, and what matter whether it causes the turret to fly off?
Incidentally, I think internal explosions commonly remove turrets of many types of tanks; Iraq just happened to be using T-72s. — Michael Z. 2005-12-12 22:39 Z
The question is how likely is internal explosions. The T-72 passanger compartment stores more shells than the ammo compartment, and the casing is inflamible. This means more likely, and faster, secondary explosions. M1A1 Abrams has no shells stored in the crew compartment except I believe the ready rack. Challengers have a segrated ammo compartment as well. Hence, secondary effect for either is going to be a lot lower.
Chin, Cheng-chuan
I believe the following are incorrect:
"Even the most recently produced T-72s are not especially well protected against conventional threats (with the notable exception of the T-72BM); NATO standard 120 mm/L60 guns, firing the M829 series depleted uranium APFSDS rounds or German Tungsten DM-53 can kill them on the first shot from any angle out past two kilometers, and even the older NATO standard 105 mm/L68 can kill a T-72 at a kilometer or more—at least with depleted uranium ammunition.[Citation needed] (in fact it could kill any modern tank as well because no armour offering effective protection against DU APFSDS exists)"
T-72BM is produced at 1988. Its armor protection is more than respectable, even in today; as for the potency of DU APFSDS, many existing armor of today is capable of defeating them, since M829 is known to have been defeated with composite armor combined with Kontakt-5 ERA. M829A1 is a powerful round, yet its speculated penetration value--610mm RHA--is lower than that of M1A1HA. The A2 is the same story. M1A1 with armor upgraded to M1A2 standard and other upgraded tanks of the same generation could withstand it, including the T-80UM and T-90M, a T-72 derivative. It was believed that the A3 model has an obsecenely penetration value--960mm at 2km--but that was the result of over estimating its velocity. It turns out that the A3 model was slower, not faster, then the previous models, as the same experts who did the initial estimation readily admits. The DU sabot is the most formidable armor piercing bullet there is. It is not invincible.
Also, the stuff about improving crew survivablity by improving fire control is nonesense. The fire supression system in the T-72 can be improved alright, but the fire control system? Taking the shells stored in the ammo compartment would reduce the total number of ammunition carried to 20 something, and no improvement in FCS would justify that--for urban fighting against infantry type threats that's plenty, but that's all the small ammo load can handle.
-Chin, Cheng-chuan
I sick of allot of propaganda,the T-72's gun on certain models was thought to be not that good,but the real reasons were flaws in the ammo. Many people think that a T-72 is not able to take out an Abrams,but a T-72 armed with a AT-11 Sniper/Svir would knock out an Abrams with little or no problems. Dudtz 4/24/06 8:03 PM EST
The gun on the T-72 isn't really innacurate,the cheaper ammo that was often used by non Soviet countries was innacurate and underpowered. Dudtz 6/17/06 6:45 PM EST
Can someone rewrite this article from a more neutral point of view, without always comparing the T-72 to modern Western tanks (how about comparing it to the tanks of its generation), and without going off topic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.98.96 ( talk • contribs)
I fixed what I could, like the part about Iraq, but I am not an expert on tank characteristics, so I can't rewrite that much.
One thing that was neglected in this article was that the T-72's autoloader had the habit of wanting to stuff-in the arm of gunner. It was not unheard of to see a Soviet soldier who had lost an arm to his own T-72 tank. [4] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.138.139.155 ( talk • contribs) .
Oh God, it's ignorant people like the person who posted the arm-eating autoloader lies that post the most disrespectful and disinformed propaganda about Russian tanks. T-72's autoloaders don't "eat" anyone's arms. It's pure and utter lie! Man, the whole T-72 article was written by an ignorant jerk with no respect or knowledge for the T-72 and its performance. Not only are there numerous lies and ungrounded speculation, he didn't write an article about T-72, he wrote a comparisson of "T-72 vs...", and even that was filled with lies and disinformation. I have been reading about T-72 for a long time, in books and various publications and they all put this low-life of a person to shame. I don't know yet where to start but I'm thinking of editing this whole thing to a more neutral article that mostly concentrates on technical stuff. Just look at M1 Abrams article here - more propaganda from ignorant people that list only its positives, even though there are tons of negatives, as well as never-ending Pentagon propaganda and lies. I don't even know if I should bother, there are already reputable sources on the net about T-72 that debunk all these lies from jerks who know nothing about T-72.
That is definitely a myth. Anybody who has been inside a T-72 and has a little bit of common sense realises that it's almost an impossibility because of the protective shields on both gunner's and TC's sides. Even if this shield is removed, it would take either a very stupid person or a masochist to lose his arm, simply because any of either TC's or gunner's actions during combat doest not require to put their arms in the way of the ramming device. --Renius 21:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
No arm can get stuffed into the breach because the gunner would have his arms nowhere near the rammer at this point. He would have both hands on the gun controls, keeping the optics on the target and being ready to fire when the little "gun ready" shows up. The shield were there from the beginning to make sure that the subframe, which ejects the spent case stub and moves into a circa 45 degree angle, does not catch the arm of either gunner or commander.
Overall, this article seems to reflect the knowledge of the early to mid-seventies. 82.195.186.220 22:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Dag Patchett, 21 Feb 2007
WAIT A SECOND. The T-72 is NOT the most common Soviet tank in the late 1980s. It was the T-80. The first line of this entry is wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.239.222.84 ( talk • contribs) .
T-72 T-80 T-64 T-62 T-55 T-54 PT-76 Total 1990 5,092 4,876 3,982 2,021 3,130 1,593 602 21,296 1991 5,092 4,907 3,982 2,021 3,130 1,593 602 21,327 1992 2,293 3,254 1,038 948 1,266 539 483 9,821
I stand corrected. My information is generated by a tank-net inquiry which I might have misinterpreted. Do you have information on the number of T-64's in service? -Chin, Cheng-chuan
I've changed the specs table on the right from T-72A (earliest version of T-72) to T-72BM (latest version of T-72) with the correct values, as well as fixed some missing values. The original author, in his ignorance, for some reason chose the earliest T-72 model (T-72A) to base the specs and reviews on, when it's well known that T-72BM entered service in 1989.
Will make additional changes later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirabell ( talk • contribs)
i would think the best way to go would be like the patton article...show the inital "A" specs, and then also the upgrades for the "BM" model Parsecboy 13:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The article was finally updated with a newer/better version that mainly focuses on technical stuff and debunks all of the nonsensical propaganda drivel against T-72 that was posted before.
Enjoy! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirabell ( talk • contribs)
You call this new and better? "Overall, as it was discovered, during the entire operation "Desert Storm", using all means, there were 14 (fourteen) T-72 tanks destroyed, including those, which were destroyed by the retreating Iraqi troops." Give me a break. -Some dork
Someone should still make this article neutral.
That is the stupidest thing that I ever seen. All tanks (and this include the western tanks) loose, at least, their turrets when their whole ammunitions explode. Only the newest tanks with auto-loaders have their ammunitions stored out of the crew compartment (T-84 Oplot, Black eagle and Leclerc). Here I have an image of a Panzer IV completely destroyed by an internal explosion and we do not call the panzer IV "the desintegrating tank"! Kovlovsky 19:11 30 april 2006
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/germany/pz4_03.jpg
We may not bad mouth the Panzer IV but the Sherman tank's infamous nickname, Ronson, is certainly mentioned. The question is not whether the reference ruffles feathers but whether it's accurate. 198.111.39.17 02:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The Carousal stores only 22 shells. The vast majority of the on-board main gun ammunition of the T-72 are stored in the crew compartment, thus made vulnerable to penetrating shells. -Chin, Cheng-chuan
how come aircraft have a comparable craft but not tanks
I've removed this statement: "The main gun of the T-72 has a mean error of one metre at a range of 1,800 m, which is considered substandard today." because it is not true. Yugoslav copy of the T-72 on the test in Pakistan has placed 6 rounds in the same target hole, disipation was about 15 cm, and tank was moving while firing and distance was 1500-2000 meters.
I think that people here should try to compare the T-72 to his contemporaries before comparing it to modern MBT, it would be more fair. Remember that the T-72 was intended to fight against the american M-60, M-48, perhaps the M-103, the french AMX-30, the British Centurion (perhaps the Conqueror)and the Chieftain, which is, I think, the only enemy tank that was, more or less, his equal. After this, it is right to compare it to the newest tank to evaluate his combat capabilities in a modern battlefield. I think that the article would be greatly improved. There are also a lot of uncited informations involving numbers or appreciation. It gives a smell of subjectivity to the article. Kovlovsky 17:33 30 april 2006
I notice that the superb pictures of the new T-72BM (as opposed to the Kontakt-V equipped T-72B(M)) from E1.RU have been put on the page- is that in accordance with Wiki's rule on copyright? Further, I wonder if the BMPT belongs here or should have its own entry? Beryoza 07:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
while the article does note that "t-72"s used by the iraqis in 1991 and 2003 were 'downgraded export versions' it fails to mention that many of these tanks were not even that, but were instead the 'Lion of Babylon' tank, which was IRAQI-BUILT. so, the 't-72s' faced by abrams tanks in gulf wars 1 and 2 were iraqi-built copies OF the soviet/russian export version of the T-72 (which was itself inferior to the original t-72). this is twice removed from the T-72 used by the red army. this is the case with much of the other 'russian' equipment used by middle-eastern armies as well. export variants are not the same quality! and copies of said variants are even less so.
tired of noting this trend.
"its rate of fire depends very much on the state of repair of the autoloader, which is necessary due to the extremely small and cramped interior space in the turret, which prevents the addition of a fourth crew member as a loader."
I have removed this line from "which is necessary" onwards. The sentence misrepresents the Design intent of the autoloader. The decision to adopt an autoloader was to allow for the reduction of the crew tank size as a result - The sentence implies that the small size of the turret is a design flaw (rather than an intentional feature) which has been patched up by using an autoloader. Besides, the presence of the autoloader and the resoning behind it is explained elsewhere in the article.
I have also added a sentence to the Introduction of the article attempting to put the T72 into context with the tanks that entered service at around the same time. I'm hoping that it might balance out the inevitable comparisons to the M1 if the reader is made aware that the T-72 belongs to the previous generation of tank design... 86.132.51.63 22:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
the first line in the section calls it a "common myth", but then goes on to say that it does, in fact, have a lesser ability to depress its main gun. so which is it? is it a myth? or is it fact? if there aren't any replies to this in a few days, i'm going to edit out the "myth" statement. Parsecboy 13:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I was just passing by this page and was having trouble with the following paragraph.
Armour
Armour protection of the T-72 was strengthened with each succeeding generation. The original T-72 turret is made from conventional cast armour. It is believe the maximum thickness of 280mm, the nose is about 80mm and the glacis of the new laminated armour is 200mm thick, which when incline gives about 500-600mm LOS thickness. Late model T-72 features composite armour protection.
In particular,
It is believe the maximum thickness of 280mm, the nose is about 80mm and the glacis of the new laminated armour is 200mm thick, which when incline gives about 500-600mm LOS thickness. L
I don't know enough about the subject to be confident in
rewording this, but it's awfully hard to understand.
If somone has a minute, this paragraph could use a little care.
-
Rockthing 06:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I'm also hesitant to make the change, but here's my alternative:
"It is believed that the T-72's armour has a maximum thickness of 280mm. The new laminated armour is about 80mm thick at the tank's nose, and about 200mm thick at the glacis. Due to the armour's sloping, LOS thickness is 500-600mm. Late model T-72's feature composite armour protection."
Someone more daring please fix her up! 203.45.85.74 14:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)Max
tK T-72 equipped with the Russian TPDK-1 is designed to be zeroed for APDS ammunition with a muzzle velocity of 18oom/s.At this range the tangent elevation for the HE and the HEAT round is automatically adjusted.With the invent of soft core ammunition with lesser muzzle velocity the problem of zeroing has been increased,especially in respect to the HE and the HEAT ammunition.all inputs on zeroing and zeroing problems of the tank are welcome here. 59.94.253.222 12:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)guederian.
The statement that 4.3 seconds per shot is "impossible for any human loaders" are blatantly untrue. H. R. McMaster, Captain of Eagle Troop, 2nd ACR of Battle of 73 Easting fame said that his exceptional loader could "load one shot every three seconds". This is available on youtube. US Army loader qualification course asks for one shot every four seconds, if memory serves.