This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 2006-01-28 and 2006-07-31.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:T-34/Archive03. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. — Michael Z. 2006-07-14 02:07 Z
I am not sure how to work this into an article and whether elaborating on this should be done at all in the article right now. But this is certainly encyclopedic in some form since it brings some interesting information for readers. Many in N. America would not know at all. The issue here is that many towns of different significances in the Eastern Block as well as in many Soviet republics had and most still have the monument which was basically a T-34 on the plinth that was supposed to mean the "First Soviet tank that entered the city in the liberation from the Nazi occupation" (driving out the Nazis may be used as a substitute to the "liberation" term that may seem incorrect in some contexts). These monuments were well-cared for despite mixed feelings of certain parts of populations in certain places. Following the collapse of the Eastern Block and the USSR they were defaced. While the thombs to the fallen soldiers, when defaced, were usually repaired and cleaned up, no one bothered about the tanks and they stood covered by Graffitti to the general ridicule. The picture of such tank in Poland can be seen in the PL- or RU-wiki articles linked to this one. Making no moral judgements on either imposing the tank for decades on the ambivalent population, or the vandals who defaced them and the authorities not caring to clean up, could we add the info to this article or this is too far from what it now covers? -- Irpen 06:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Yep, IS-2 it was instead of Goncharenko's T-34: "the wrong tank, the wrong type of tank with the wrong number on its turret." This article gives some info too. And in the museum it is still pink [1] -- Irpen 07:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The article Lang Vei mentions PT-76 tanks. No T-34 of any kind is mentioned in the article. What`s the truth?
Veljko Stevanovich 18. 2. 2006. 22:10 UTC+1
Is it a dummy turret or a flamethrower version or a T-34 with 57 mm gun ? Turret looks like from T-34/85 -- Denniss 11:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Last week, someone copy/pasted the quote from Military Discovery Channel's "Top Ten" feature in regard to tanks. No surprise there; T-34 was number one. Someone else deleted that section later on. While the paragraph was most certainly not at its best form, I think it was actually a good idea to put that in. It shows that the group of experts (of not only various fields but also nationalities) agree that the T-34 was the greatest tank of all time based on various factors, and it can be referenced (I googled and found that article on Military Discovery's official website).
I think this should be incorporated into the article. The opening is full of "greatest", "best all around", etc without references. But here is an opinion from various experts and such that can have a footnote added.
If not comments are made in the near future, I will probably add it myself.
Zaloga & Kinnear (1996 [2004]:15):
An anonymous poster points to battlefield.ru article which says "The Soviet industry manufactured various shields instead".
The quotation above is part of the caption a photo of the side of a tank, clearly showing at least two different screens, which do look like different sets of bedsprings.
Battlefield.ru is usually reliable, but all things being equal, I would go with the respected published source over the web site. Anyone have some more insight? — Michael Z. 2006-05-23 13:54 Z
The comparison of the armoured forces' relative tactical (vs operational and strategic) skills was paraphrased from Zaloga & Grandsen (1984), so I didn't want to change the sense of it too much. We're relying on a published expert opinion here, which for this type of statement seems to make more sense than trying to extrapolate tactical training levels based on vehicle loss figures, which are influenced by a thousand other factors.
The standoff screen pictured on battlefront.ru is interesting (1/2-way down, captioned "A JS-2 with anti-HEAT shields in 1944"). It doesn't look like it's made from bedframes, but plain steel mesh (it looks opaque at the angle, but you can see the horse cart through it). [but it appears to be attached by struts to both hull and turret or superstructure; are we sure that vehicle's not an ISU?]
It would be great to have an expert like Valera review this article and comment on it. Anonymous, since you sound like you're familiar with him, would you invite him? — Michael Z. 2006-05-25 05:07 Z
Valeri Potapov (www.battlefield.ru). I would like to add a couple words about the "bedsprings" theme. Although infantry HEAT weapons developed at the beginning of the war, its wide usage on the Eastern Front (Russia) appeared in mid-1944 when the Red Army launched a massive advance on Nazi Germany and started to re-capture a lot of cities and towns. That time German panzershtrecks and panzerfausts apeeared to be very effective infantry antitank weapon. Soviet armor casualties were very high especially because in most cases panzerfaust ignited a tank and it completely writed-off. A hurry measures had to be made to improve this situation. I don't know who was the author of the very first anti-HEAT screen but the idea was very useful and cheap. The idea was to make the fuse of the HEAT projectile to explode BEFORE it hit the armor. Various experiments conducted on NIIBT proving ground at Kubinka in 1944. Most effective and cheap to manufacture were screens made from 5-8 mm steel wire. Some of them looked like a bedsprings but they weren't. Real bedsprings were also tested at Kubinka but results were negative, they were too soft and too weak to explode a HEAT round. Special GKO order (issued on 12.04.1944) introduced those wire screens and additionally it prohibited to use any bedsprings because they did not provide any protection at all. Today the copy of this order is located in Tech Library in Kubinka as well as detailed reports on tests with anti-HEAT screens.
I've completed a minor rewrite of the T-34#Importance section, which I've been intending to do for some time. It separates the tank's immediate effect on the war and its technical legacy from the its role in development of military theory and the concept of main battle tank. Please have a look over and comment or improve. I would like to keep this section brief and to the point, but ensure that it is supported by the text of the article.
Once this appears to be stable, I'd like to nominate this article as a featured article. — Michael Z. 2006-07-02 21:53 Z
In case anyone hasn't noticed, I've nominated this article as a candidate for FA. Please read the comments, and leave your own at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/T-34/archive1. The comments so far are positive, but the article still needs some work to reach FA status.
I've addressed most of the comments, but the article is still lacking references for a number of facts presented in it. I'll be adding some more in the next few days, but I don't think I can find them all myself. If you have a bit of time, please pull out your books and throw in a reference or two.
As I go through the article, perhaps I'll list some of the specific statements which require support here. Thanks, all. Urrraaah! — Michael Z. 2006-07-06 22:34 Z
As part of the drive to FA status, we should settle the POV question once and for all. Consensus on this talk page has so far been to leave statements like this one in the introduction:
See #comments, #Best tank Quotes, and #Best tank on this page.
But regularly, an editor reads the article and tries to eliminate or qualify these statements to make them neutral. [8]
But in my view, there is only a neutrality problem if some opposing point of view is neglected or minimized. This article is full of quotes supporting the 'best' position, and I haven't seen a single informed opposing point of view anywhere, or any controversy on the topic. The article also goes into some depth explaining why the T-34 was the best tank in terms of the three main characteristics of effectiveness, as well as its industrial success and influence on tank design, and also discusses some of its failings, although none of them negates the 'best in 1941' status. Stating uncontested views is Neutral, according to my interpretation of the rather unambiguous guidelines ( WP:NPOV & WP:POV). Are there any problems with my reasoning here?
Specifically referring to the sentence in the introduction, I think the statement is expanded upon in the following paragraph: "At its introduction, it was the tank with the best balance of firepower, mobility, and protection in existence, . . .". If it does need qualification in the first sentence, I'd rather not write "It was' considered to be the world's best tank. . .", because that is a statement about opinion in 1941, and may not even be correct. I'd rather write one of the following, but I'm concerned that either version reduces the impact of the sentence, and may be confusing for a reader not familiar with "hard factors":
Can we improve on either of these versions while preserving its sense? — Michael Z. 2006-07-11 15:57 Z
Influential is probably as good a one as any to start with - what did it influence and how? Panther and King Tiger mostly. Efficient - well it could be built quickly, operated easily and repaired easily. Effective is the hard one. GraemeLeggett 16:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
user:Mieciu K removed the phrase "its successor" in the following introduction sentence :
With the edit summary:
I've reverted. The T-44 was a transitional design which never fully replaced the T-34 in service or on the production line. It was considered inadequate, because it only mounted an 85mm gun and suffered from automotive problems. It was only built at a low rate, alongside continuing production of the T-34. According to Zaloga & Johnson (2004:6, reference at T-55#References), even when the early T-54-1 had already been put into production at Uralvagonzavod and KhPZ, but stopped because it failed to live up to expectations, the T-34-85 still accounted for "85% of production through 1950". Only after the T-54-2 with the round turret started production did the Politburo authorize the Omsk factory to stop making the T-34 and switch over to the T-54.
Yup, the production history still could use a section covering 1945–1981. — Michael Z. 2006-07-12 14:48 Z
Could someone please explain to me why the T-34 is considered one of the best tanks in WW2? I hear this over and over, and all types of praise, yet no one mentions the fact that the only reason it had any success was because Russia had more resources than Germany. For example, the German Panther was vastly superior to the T-34, and had a kill ratio of 1:9 versus T-34s. How can a tank that was only successful due to high numbers and Russian resources be considered the greatest, when it was an inferior tank? Yes, it was a good tank early on in the war, but it was no match for for mid to late war tanks. The situation of World War 2 should not be considered when judging the tank itself. The tanks' abilities have nothing to do with the resources the respective countries had available, but should be judged on neutral terms. My argument is basically this: if 10 mediocre boxers gang up and beat one great boxer, this does not mean that the 10 boxers are better. It's the same situation here.
When I'm referring to resources, I'm referring to resources that can be used to fight a war, such as steel, oil, rare minerals, manpower, factories, trading partners and overall conditions, and in these areas Russia had superiority, since Germany was lacking in many of these supplies (through geography, poor leadership, fighting a two front war and the constant Allied bombing campaigns). The point still remains: a tank that needs to be produced in large numbers and take heavy losses to succeed is not a good tank, it a cheap tank. The Sherman was much the same; a cheap tank that could be sacrificed and replaced, and that didn't protect its crew. Sure, ten T-34s may be better than one Panther, but we're not discussing the strategic choices of generals or the allocation of resources, we're discussing the tank itself and how it performed. Once again, in 1941 it might have been the best tank, but the war lasted from 1939 to 1945, so from a neutral, objective point of view, the T-34 was not the best tank. If 1 panther can destroy 9 T-34s on average before biting the dust, I'd say it's clear as day that the Panther is the superior tank.
Very good, thorough reply, DMorph. The resource superiority of the USSR is a pervasive myth, and I only recently read about the real picture, which is not quite so one-sided. I can't improve on what you wrote, but I would pick out a few salient big-picture points: four ways in which the T-34 is uniquely superior.
To put the Panther's superiority in a historical perspective: by the time Germany had any, it wasn't winning a war any more. To compare apples to apples, the Panther was in the same class as its contemporary, the IS-2: faster, but relatively outgunned and under-armoured.
There have been many other excellent and notable tank designs, but surely none can match the legacy of the T-34. — Michael Z. 2006-09-15 07:03 Z
T-34 is now one of Wikipedia's Featured Articles. Congratulations everyone, and thanks for all of the discerning eyes, attention to detail, and hard work which has helped this article grow and improve.
Please keep it up here, and in other articles. Cheers! — Michael Z. 2006-07-14 02:16 Z
I'm removing the following addition
I recall that Hitler said he wouldn't have invaded the USSR if he'd believed Guderian's published statement that it had 10,000 tanks at the start of the war. In fact it had 30,000, although many obsolescent and in disrepair. Anyway, my recollection is that this was not directly related to the rate at which T-34's could be produced. If I'm mistaken, please set me straight—a reference would be helpful, too. — Michael Z. 2006-07-31 19:18 Z
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 2006-01-28 and 2006-07-31.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:T-34/Archive03. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. — Michael Z. 2006-07-14 02:07 Z
I am not sure how to work this into an article and whether elaborating on this should be done at all in the article right now. But this is certainly encyclopedic in some form since it brings some interesting information for readers. Many in N. America would not know at all. The issue here is that many towns of different significances in the Eastern Block as well as in many Soviet republics had and most still have the monument which was basically a T-34 on the plinth that was supposed to mean the "First Soviet tank that entered the city in the liberation from the Nazi occupation" (driving out the Nazis may be used as a substitute to the "liberation" term that may seem incorrect in some contexts). These monuments were well-cared for despite mixed feelings of certain parts of populations in certain places. Following the collapse of the Eastern Block and the USSR they were defaced. While the thombs to the fallen soldiers, when defaced, were usually repaired and cleaned up, no one bothered about the tanks and they stood covered by Graffitti to the general ridicule. The picture of such tank in Poland can be seen in the PL- or RU-wiki articles linked to this one. Making no moral judgements on either imposing the tank for decades on the ambivalent population, or the vandals who defaced them and the authorities not caring to clean up, could we add the info to this article or this is too far from what it now covers? -- Irpen 06:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Yep, IS-2 it was instead of Goncharenko's T-34: "the wrong tank, the wrong type of tank with the wrong number on its turret." This article gives some info too. And in the museum it is still pink [1] -- Irpen 07:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The article Lang Vei mentions PT-76 tanks. No T-34 of any kind is mentioned in the article. What`s the truth?
Veljko Stevanovich 18. 2. 2006. 22:10 UTC+1
Is it a dummy turret or a flamethrower version or a T-34 with 57 mm gun ? Turret looks like from T-34/85 -- Denniss 11:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Last week, someone copy/pasted the quote from Military Discovery Channel's "Top Ten" feature in regard to tanks. No surprise there; T-34 was number one. Someone else deleted that section later on. While the paragraph was most certainly not at its best form, I think it was actually a good idea to put that in. It shows that the group of experts (of not only various fields but also nationalities) agree that the T-34 was the greatest tank of all time based on various factors, and it can be referenced (I googled and found that article on Military Discovery's official website).
I think this should be incorporated into the article. The opening is full of "greatest", "best all around", etc without references. But here is an opinion from various experts and such that can have a footnote added.
If not comments are made in the near future, I will probably add it myself.
Zaloga & Kinnear (1996 [2004]:15):
An anonymous poster points to battlefield.ru article which says "The Soviet industry manufactured various shields instead".
The quotation above is part of the caption a photo of the side of a tank, clearly showing at least two different screens, which do look like different sets of bedsprings.
Battlefield.ru is usually reliable, but all things being equal, I would go with the respected published source over the web site. Anyone have some more insight? — Michael Z. 2006-05-23 13:54 Z
The comparison of the armoured forces' relative tactical (vs operational and strategic) skills was paraphrased from Zaloga & Grandsen (1984), so I didn't want to change the sense of it too much. We're relying on a published expert opinion here, which for this type of statement seems to make more sense than trying to extrapolate tactical training levels based on vehicle loss figures, which are influenced by a thousand other factors.
The standoff screen pictured on battlefront.ru is interesting (1/2-way down, captioned "A JS-2 with anti-HEAT shields in 1944"). It doesn't look like it's made from bedframes, but plain steel mesh (it looks opaque at the angle, but you can see the horse cart through it). [but it appears to be attached by struts to both hull and turret or superstructure; are we sure that vehicle's not an ISU?]
It would be great to have an expert like Valera review this article and comment on it. Anonymous, since you sound like you're familiar with him, would you invite him? — Michael Z. 2006-05-25 05:07 Z
Valeri Potapov (www.battlefield.ru). I would like to add a couple words about the "bedsprings" theme. Although infantry HEAT weapons developed at the beginning of the war, its wide usage on the Eastern Front (Russia) appeared in mid-1944 when the Red Army launched a massive advance on Nazi Germany and started to re-capture a lot of cities and towns. That time German panzershtrecks and panzerfausts apeeared to be very effective infantry antitank weapon. Soviet armor casualties were very high especially because in most cases panzerfaust ignited a tank and it completely writed-off. A hurry measures had to be made to improve this situation. I don't know who was the author of the very first anti-HEAT screen but the idea was very useful and cheap. The idea was to make the fuse of the HEAT projectile to explode BEFORE it hit the armor. Various experiments conducted on NIIBT proving ground at Kubinka in 1944. Most effective and cheap to manufacture were screens made from 5-8 mm steel wire. Some of them looked like a bedsprings but they weren't. Real bedsprings were also tested at Kubinka but results were negative, they were too soft and too weak to explode a HEAT round. Special GKO order (issued on 12.04.1944) introduced those wire screens and additionally it prohibited to use any bedsprings because they did not provide any protection at all. Today the copy of this order is located in Tech Library in Kubinka as well as detailed reports on tests with anti-HEAT screens.
I've completed a minor rewrite of the T-34#Importance section, which I've been intending to do for some time. It separates the tank's immediate effect on the war and its technical legacy from the its role in development of military theory and the concept of main battle tank. Please have a look over and comment or improve. I would like to keep this section brief and to the point, but ensure that it is supported by the text of the article.
Once this appears to be stable, I'd like to nominate this article as a featured article. — Michael Z. 2006-07-02 21:53 Z
In case anyone hasn't noticed, I've nominated this article as a candidate for FA. Please read the comments, and leave your own at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/T-34/archive1. The comments so far are positive, but the article still needs some work to reach FA status.
I've addressed most of the comments, but the article is still lacking references for a number of facts presented in it. I'll be adding some more in the next few days, but I don't think I can find them all myself. If you have a bit of time, please pull out your books and throw in a reference or two.
As I go through the article, perhaps I'll list some of the specific statements which require support here. Thanks, all. Urrraaah! — Michael Z. 2006-07-06 22:34 Z
As part of the drive to FA status, we should settle the POV question once and for all. Consensus on this talk page has so far been to leave statements like this one in the introduction:
See #comments, #Best tank Quotes, and #Best tank on this page.
But regularly, an editor reads the article and tries to eliminate or qualify these statements to make them neutral. [8]
But in my view, there is only a neutrality problem if some opposing point of view is neglected or minimized. This article is full of quotes supporting the 'best' position, and I haven't seen a single informed opposing point of view anywhere, or any controversy on the topic. The article also goes into some depth explaining why the T-34 was the best tank in terms of the three main characteristics of effectiveness, as well as its industrial success and influence on tank design, and also discusses some of its failings, although none of them negates the 'best in 1941' status. Stating uncontested views is Neutral, according to my interpretation of the rather unambiguous guidelines ( WP:NPOV & WP:POV). Are there any problems with my reasoning here?
Specifically referring to the sentence in the introduction, I think the statement is expanded upon in the following paragraph: "At its introduction, it was the tank with the best balance of firepower, mobility, and protection in existence, . . .". If it does need qualification in the first sentence, I'd rather not write "It was' considered to be the world's best tank. . .", because that is a statement about opinion in 1941, and may not even be correct. I'd rather write one of the following, but I'm concerned that either version reduces the impact of the sentence, and may be confusing for a reader not familiar with "hard factors":
Can we improve on either of these versions while preserving its sense? — Michael Z. 2006-07-11 15:57 Z
Influential is probably as good a one as any to start with - what did it influence and how? Panther and King Tiger mostly. Efficient - well it could be built quickly, operated easily and repaired easily. Effective is the hard one. GraemeLeggett 16:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
user:Mieciu K removed the phrase "its successor" in the following introduction sentence :
With the edit summary:
I've reverted. The T-44 was a transitional design which never fully replaced the T-34 in service or on the production line. It was considered inadequate, because it only mounted an 85mm gun and suffered from automotive problems. It was only built at a low rate, alongside continuing production of the T-34. According to Zaloga & Johnson (2004:6, reference at T-55#References), even when the early T-54-1 had already been put into production at Uralvagonzavod and KhPZ, but stopped because it failed to live up to expectations, the T-34-85 still accounted for "85% of production through 1950". Only after the T-54-2 with the round turret started production did the Politburo authorize the Omsk factory to stop making the T-34 and switch over to the T-54.
Yup, the production history still could use a section covering 1945–1981. — Michael Z. 2006-07-12 14:48 Z
Could someone please explain to me why the T-34 is considered one of the best tanks in WW2? I hear this over and over, and all types of praise, yet no one mentions the fact that the only reason it had any success was because Russia had more resources than Germany. For example, the German Panther was vastly superior to the T-34, and had a kill ratio of 1:9 versus T-34s. How can a tank that was only successful due to high numbers and Russian resources be considered the greatest, when it was an inferior tank? Yes, it was a good tank early on in the war, but it was no match for for mid to late war tanks. The situation of World War 2 should not be considered when judging the tank itself. The tanks' abilities have nothing to do with the resources the respective countries had available, but should be judged on neutral terms. My argument is basically this: if 10 mediocre boxers gang up and beat one great boxer, this does not mean that the 10 boxers are better. It's the same situation here.
When I'm referring to resources, I'm referring to resources that can be used to fight a war, such as steel, oil, rare minerals, manpower, factories, trading partners and overall conditions, and in these areas Russia had superiority, since Germany was lacking in many of these supplies (through geography, poor leadership, fighting a two front war and the constant Allied bombing campaigns). The point still remains: a tank that needs to be produced in large numbers and take heavy losses to succeed is not a good tank, it a cheap tank. The Sherman was much the same; a cheap tank that could be sacrificed and replaced, and that didn't protect its crew. Sure, ten T-34s may be better than one Panther, but we're not discussing the strategic choices of generals or the allocation of resources, we're discussing the tank itself and how it performed. Once again, in 1941 it might have been the best tank, but the war lasted from 1939 to 1945, so from a neutral, objective point of view, the T-34 was not the best tank. If 1 panther can destroy 9 T-34s on average before biting the dust, I'd say it's clear as day that the Panther is the superior tank.
Very good, thorough reply, DMorph. The resource superiority of the USSR is a pervasive myth, and I only recently read about the real picture, which is not quite so one-sided. I can't improve on what you wrote, but I would pick out a few salient big-picture points: four ways in which the T-34 is uniquely superior.
To put the Panther's superiority in a historical perspective: by the time Germany had any, it wasn't winning a war any more. To compare apples to apples, the Panther was in the same class as its contemporary, the IS-2: faster, but relatively outgunned and under-armoured.
There have been many other excellent and notable tank designs, but surely none can match the legacy of the T-34. — Michael Z. 2006-09-15 07:03 Z
T-34 is now one of Wikipedia's Featured Articles. Congratulations everyone, and thanks for all of the discerning eyes, attention to detail, and hard work which has helped this article grow and improve.
Please keep it up here, and in other articles. Cheers! — Michael Z. 2006-07-14 02:16 Z
I'm removing the following addition
I recall that Hitler said he wouldn't have invaded the USSR if he'd believed Guderian's published statement that it had 10,000 tanks at the start of the war. In fact it had 30,000, although many obsolescent and in disrepair. Anyway, my recollection is that this was not directly related to the rate at which T-34's could be produced. If I'm mistaken, please set me straight—a reference would be helpful, too. — Michael Z. 2006-07-31 19:18 Z