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143.167.143.33 ( talk) 12:23, 22 September 2015 (UTC)The Soviet army was unhappy with the overall layout of the T-34 (later T-34/76) right from the start. The Christie-type (note: NOT Christie, the T-34 could NOT be run on its road wheels) suspension took up excessive internal space, the two-man turret was too cramped and made the tank essentially impossible to fight, the manufacture quality of many of the components varied from excellent to abysmal (for example the radiator). The later T-34/85 introduced a larger three-man turret, but many of the vehicles earlier flaws remained the same. There were several attempts to introduce changes to the basic design, the most notable being the T34M which included a switch to torsion-bar suspension, and the T-43 which introduced heavier armour; however the main impetus was a demand for a larger caliber gun and such programs were terminated.
The one omission I would like to make note of is that surely the T-34 must probably be the most destroyed tank of WW2!
Further I must point out one more error; "Its evolutionary development led directly to the T-54/55 series of tanks, and from there to the T-62, T-72, and T-90 tanks..." is simply not true. The design lineage of the T-34 began with the T-34/76 and ended with the T-34/85. The T-54/55 and T62 trace their ancestry back to the T-34s original replacement, the T-44 which was an entirely new design.
Andy Loates
I must differ with your last point. The T-44 was an obvious follow-on to the T-34-85 and shared quite a few components. The turret design, while 'new', was very close to the T-34-85 turret. The major difference was the transversely-mounted engine (same as the T-34) and transmission, and the torsion-bar suspension, both of which allowed for a lower hull. DMorpheus2 ( talk) 19:05, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but you are quite wrong. The T44 was a clean-sheet design; yes, it had a similar turret to the T34 but it doesn't mean anything. The M8 armoured car, T17 armoured car, and Medium Tank M3 all had very similar, almost identical turrets for their 37mm gun, but they were in no way related designs. You say "The T-44 was an obvious follow-on to the T-34-85 and shared quite a few components"; I say the early M1 Abrams was the obvious follow-on to the M60A3TTS, and shared similar components, including the main tank gun; does that mean the M1 was based on the M60? Would you say the Chieftain was an evolutionary development of the Centurion? No. They were clean-sheet designs, as was the T44, which was longer, wider, lower, and more powerful than the T34, and was, ironically given the Panthers genesis, designed to defeat this German tank. 143.167.143.33 ( talk) 13:57, 17 February 2016 (UTC)Andy L
The T-34-85 and T-44 shared the same main gun, very similar turret, identical engines, and identical road wheels and tracks. The main differences were that the T-44 had torsion-bar suspension and a transversely-mounted engine with a new transmission. Torsion-bar suspension was also the intent on the T-34M so the idea had been around since 1940, but the war suggested, correctly, to the USSR that they should concentrate on producing thousands of pretty-good T-34s rather than switching production and thus suffering much smaller production numbers for a slightly-better T-34M tank. With the luxury of winning the war, they could go back to designing nice new tanks. You're correct that the T-44 was developed to counter the Panther. Nothing 'ironic' about it - what else would you expect the Red Army to do? The notion that it was a wholly-new design is simply contradicted by the facts. It was rejected for mass production precisely *because* it wasn't a big enough leap ahead; it could not carry the desired 100mm gun. Thus the T-54 was developed almost immediately.
The M8 armored car had an open-topped turret that bears virtually no resemblance to the T17 or M3 Lee. Your other comparisions are just that - comparisions - which have nothing to do with this article. Regards, DMorpheus2 ( talk) 14:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Under China it says: "After the formation of the People's Republic of China (the PRC) in 1949, the Soviet Union sent many T-34s and T-34-85s to the PRC's People's Liberation Army (the PLA)." As I understand it the USSR has not sent any T-34/76s to China. Granted, I've got this from http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com and I don't know if this is considered a legitimate source or not but I thought I'd mention it. http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/china/chinese-tanks-1925-1950/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.148.113.168 ( talk) 08:29, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
In the lead is claimed: "Its choice of diesel engine power extended its range, and made it more difficult to brew up when it was hit." without source. Diesel was not more difficul to brew up as gasoline. I don't know were that myth coming from. Check that link: Gas Tanks, Fires, and Explosions Kheynom ( talk) 04:40, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
I just changed the lead to clean up some recent edits but also to address a couple of creeping scope issues.
In short, I'm trying to keep the article as focused on the T-34 as possible. Multiple times over its life there have crept in various amounts of info on the Red Army's fighting abilities and Soviet production capabilities, which have in turn been enmeshed in descriptions of the tank so that all three become confusingly entangled. For example, I'd like to keep out details of how many were destroyed in the context of how effective a tank it was. Factual statements of production and losses make perfect sense, but attempting to judge the merits of the tank based on its combat performance cannot be done without drawing in the poor doctrine, lousy training, low morale, poor logistics, inexperience at high levels of command etc etc of the force that fielded it. A well-designed tank remains well-designed even if employed by idiots. I've restated the loss details to reflect this approach, merely stating that many were built and many were destroyed by the Germans, without attempting to draw any wider conclusions. The later sections do a good job of addressing concrete shortcomings with specific details that explain how the Germans were able to destroy so many, but of course that level of detail doesn't belong in a lead.
Similarly, I've separated the fact that the tank was constantly modified as the war went on to make it cheaper/easier to build from the fact that the Soviets fielded far more tanks than the Germans. You simply cannot make this kind of conclusion without mixing apples and oranges: Soviet industry was vastly more efficient than German industry in terms of mass production, and then there are the separate issues of lend-lease and the western bombing campaign against German industry, all of which further muddy the waters. In this light, it would be best to avoid much in the way of implication that the design of the T-34 itself was responsible for the fact that the Soviets had more of them than the Germans had other tanks without direct cites to back it up, as it should be obvious that this is but one unquantifiable factor in the much larger story of comparative Soviet/Nazi production. Palindromedairy ( talk) 11:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
The following appears in Archive 6:
T-34-85 or T-34/85[edit] I'd like to suggest that we consistently use one or the other, and not mix both usages in the article. I suggest this mostly for the sake of good style.
Having said that, the Soviet and Russian usage is T-34-85, not T-34/85. This usage has been adopted much more commonly in newer English-language sources than T-34/85. The T-34/85 usage is a bit dated and, I'd guess, probably derived from the German usage of T-34/76 (a designation not generally used by the Soviets or Russians). Since this is a Soviet-era piece of equipment, not German, I suggest we use the Soviet/Russian usage.
Regards, DMorpheus2 (talk) 14:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
I prefer T-34/85 for clarity's sake. IMO it doesn't leave questions (or as many, anyhow) about what's referred to. (Maybe informed by hot rodder practise...) I'm not so wedded to it I'd demand it, & I do agree a consistent use is preferable. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 01:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC) Its potentially confusing when you consider the usage "T-54/55" , which refers to the T-54 and T-55 series of tanks, not to a T-54 armed with a 55mm gun ;) DMorpheus2 (talk) 15:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Fair point. We're not doing that on this page, tho, are we? (Are we? ;p ) TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 17:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC) The Slash comes from Finnish sources. For example the infantry rifle M/28-30, or submachine gun M/31. 69.60.229.207 (talk) 03:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Regards, DMorpheus2 ( talk) 16:34, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Again dealing with folks using "T-34/85" when "T-34-85" is correct and consensus on the talk page. Regards,
DMorpheus2 (
talk)
16:08, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
The Angolan Civil War section now seems to be as long as all the other usage sections combined. This seems too much coverage and detail for the base article on the T-34. I have tagged it as such. ( Hohum @) 03:03, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
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The armour section uses sources such as the Pantherfibel and Aberdeen trials. Which is fine if they are balanced and contributing to a larger picture. However they are not. The Aberdeen trial only shows 2 examples of war-weary T-34 1941 version tanks. That is not representative of all tanks of that batch, and it is certainly not representative of all the different models. Again, it is unknown exactly what the German Pantherfibel is based on, though probably they also had some tests of their own which I do not know off.
If no sources for the T-34 armour which describes the different models, and their technical data based on a larger sample size than 2 can be found, at least it should be mentioned that this is the case. Currently, this section reads as if the Aberdeen tests are authoritative of all T-34s when that is not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CarlGGHamilton ( talk • contribs) 09:42, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Our article currently says:
Not that I doubt that workers were treated badly, but if production time and complexity of assembly were also reduced, it is a bit strange to ascribe the reduction in cost to "underpaying & overworking" - that would suggest that these issues developed from 1941 to 1943 and were the only, or at least dominant, factor in that cost reduction. I would also be a bit reluctant on using a cold-war era military publisher for such a claim. -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 08:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
-- Ah, I'm glad someone else noticed this. I checked out the page referenced in citation [37b] - it has the statement about the cost being reduced pretty much 1:1 to how it appears in this article, but the other claims in this paragraph are not present. I moved the citation to the correct sentence and added 'citation needed' thingies to the other lines, since I truly can't figure out where this information is coming from. ---173.251.90.109 ( talk) 10:44, 10 October 2018
Per this old revision, the article was written in British English. -- John ( talk) 14:59, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Peter Samsonov author of Designing the T-34: Genesis of the Revolutionary Soviet Tank, claims there are a number of innaccuries in this article. He talks specifically about 3 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhPgw6X8ubE
I don't think that would be enough for me to make changes in the article, I don't own and haven't read his book, I'm not sure if a Youtube video would be considered a reliable source, and there are citations for the claims in the article, so I figured I'd just put this in the talk page rather than editing the article itself based on the video.
twfowler ( talk) 16:14, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
While the 76.2 mm gun on the T-34 was no howitzer, it was also by no means a "high velocity tank gun"... it was more of a medium-velocity dual-use gun like the similarly-calibered 75 mm US and British guns. The two different 75 mm guns on the Panzer IV and Panther, as well as the two different US three inch guns and the British 17 pounder of similar caliber to the 3 inch gun on the T-34 all fired shells at FAR higher velocities. This quote needs fixing. 2601:245:C101:9C70:A59E:5B97:996E:21D2 ( talk) 21:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't know what's a good source for this, but the T-34 is still being used currently in the Yemeni Civil War, isn't it? [1] That would make the Yemeni Civil War the most recent conflict to still use them. Fephisto ( talk) 20:32, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Does this count as use in a conflict? https://en.defence-ua.com/news/russians_already_use_t_34_though_not_the_way_expected_video-3540.html // Liftarn ( talk) Liftarn ( talk) 09:09, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
I've recently come to believe that the notion T-34s went into battle with a spare transmission is a myth. The first time I seriously began questioning it was when I read the Errata for Pulham and Kerrs' T-34 Shock. It brings some good point: "Reinterpretation of evidence: We refer to the well-photographed T-34 (L-11 Gun) abandoned in Lvov/Lviv, western Ukrainian SSR, of which two photographs can be found on page 107. However, we are inclined to agree that a more plausible reason for carrying the transmission on the back of the tank was the evacuation of a valuable spare part as concluded by Christian Mulsow in ‘The First T-34 Birth of a Legend : T-34 Model 1940’ (Erlangen: Tankograd, 2019), p. 121, because it was, indeed, a complicated job to replace the transmission." I've looked and there don't seem to be any other pictures of T-34s carrying transmissions anywhere. I suspect this will be a pain to recognise as a myth, though, since there's a ton of literature that repeated it, but hopefully we can get ahead of the curve on this page. Thoughts? MaxRavenclaw ( talk) 08:22, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
An edit I made removing content from this article was reverted so I'm going to "repropose" my edit. The edit was the removal of the final 4 sentences of the General Reliablity section due to it being sourced from a CIA document. In general you can't just quote a CIA document directly as these are primary sources that have to be handled with care. To directly quote from it without the use of any secondary source in this case has most likely led to the source being misused. Originalcola ( talk) 04:32, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
Not touching on anything that may or may not occur with current the conflict in Ukraine, shouldn't Russia still be considered a ceremonial operator of the T-34? Given that the mobile column of the Moscow victory day parade contains the tank. 2601:600:C701:2E70:3020:23F1:DC24:AAA2 ( talk) 06:06, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
@ 199.7.157.86: Your addition to the infobox has now been reverted by three separate users (four, if we include the same edit to T-64), making it quite clear that consensus is against your change. As you are making the change, it is your responsibility to use the talk page to get consensus for your edits, not the other way around. Loafiewa ( talk) 18:48, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
"one of the best tank designs in World War II; its excellent performance is one of the factors leading to Soviet success in defending against invasion by Nazi Germany."
This doesn't really seem to be a summary of what said in the article, which says "the Soviet corps equipped with these new tanks lost most of them within weeks".
It may be truer to say it's upgraded version, the T-34-85 helped win against Germany once the tide turned, though. ( Hohum @) 18:56, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
I may not be a professional in this, but German generals praising the tank, when literally 50% of all T-34s did not make through WW2, were all deployed in the eastern front. This feels like those German generals were trying to say "We didn't fail strategically and tactically, they had superior tanks, like the T-34!". This probably should be mentioned in the article. 93.105.177.2 ( talk) 20:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
I feel like it should be mentioned that the steel for the T-34 was annealed at 600 degrees celsius, which led to the steel being hard, but incredibly brittle. It is seen that the tank "cracks" in most photos. 95.160.158.208 ( talk) 20:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
The purported results of the examination of the T-34 by American engineers at the the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1943 is heavily cited in the current article - at least 6 direct citations by my count.
The trouble is that this source doesn't meeting any reasonable standards of relevance, accuracy, consistency, or reliability. It's also
Let's take this step by step:
1. Relevance - the sample size for this apparent analysis is a grand total of two tanks. Is this really the best available source to discuss the pros and cons of one of the most prolific tanks in history? Especially given the wide variability in production methods and approaches in the early models, weighing this source to this extent is questionable. Even if it had no other faults - and oh boy, does it have faults.
2. "Accuracy"
Optics - according to the source, the American engineers felt that the Model 1941 T-34 had the best optics of any tank fielded or in development.
Quote: "Optic - The general opinion: the best construction in the world. Incomparable with any existing tanks or any under development."
That sentence alone should cause anyone with actually knowledge of tanks throw the whole thing into the bin and light it on fire. For Pete's sake, the very wiki article itself points out several times that the optics of the T-34 were of mediocre quality at best.
Air filters - apparently, the Americans (in 1943) felt that the "Pomon" filters used in the Model 1941 T-34 didn't do anything. They recommended this terrible deficiency be fixed - and General Khlopov took this recommendation seriously enough to put it into his alleged report. The current article implies that this even had some practical impact - as the air filters were replaced with newly designed ones on the Model 1943.
The trouble is that the Model 1943 T-34 with the upgraded "Cyclone" filters started production in May of 1942 - roughly a year prior the American "evaluation." Now, perhaps the American engineers were not aware of this - they can't be blamed, they were evaluating the tanks in front of them. But why in the world did the very non-American General Khlopov feel it was necessary to put this down as a recommendation in his "report?" Not just any recommendation - this thing that had been done a year prior needed to be done "quickly!"
3. Consistency
Was the armor of the T-34 Model 1941 too soft or too hard? Because General Khlopov's report of the Aberdeen findings is very clear that the armor is too soft, and that's bad.
However, the Review of Soviet Ordnance Metallurgy document also cited by the wiki article, and also referring to the very tanks at Aberdeen definitively calls out the armor as being extremely hard relative to American approaches.
Quote: "The armor components of the T-34 tank, with the exception of the bow casting which was unheat-treated, were heat-treated to very high hardnesses (430-500 Brinell), probably in an attempt to secure maximum resistance to penetration by certain classes of armor-piercing projectiles even at the expense of structural integrity under ballistic attack. The armor components of the KV-1 heavy tank were heat-treated to hardnesses more nearly approaching American practice (280-320 Brinell)"
While on the topic of consistency, I'll note with interest that the unambiguously glowing characterization of the T-34's optics as "the best in the world" did not seem interesting enough to include in the current wiki article. If the source is good - why only pull in the information that negatively reflects on the machine?
4. Reliability - we're not looking at the report of the engineers from Aberdeen. We're not looking at an official summary of that report. We're looking - allegedly - at the translation of a transcription of report of the General Khlopov on the in-progress trials. Despite some determined searching in Russian and English sources - I have not been able to find a trace of the original document from Khlopov - only this transcriptions, copied endlessly from blog-post to blog-post.
Summary - this source is not fit to cite on this page. I recommend any associated paragraphs and statements be reviewed and either removed or supported with solid information. Theotherotherone ( talk) 05:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
For the undo:
He was spreading myths with this statement. German tanks were no more complex than the others, apart from the running gear. The Germans did improve their war industry, see the Panther cost as much as a Panzer IV. And this is the best.....as an ACADEMIC historian he is missing 2 important things: One: Germans were bombed to smithereens by 1944, production declined. NOT because of tank design. Second: the Soviets built more factories and BIGGER factories: production increased. The cost of a T-34 in 1945 was not much less than that of a Panther.
Szolnok95 ( talk) 16:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
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143.167.143.33 ( talk) 12:23, 22 September 2015 (UTC)The Soviet army was unhappy with the overall layout of the T-34 (later T-34/76) right from the start. The Christie-type (note: NOT Christie, the T-34 could NOT be run on its road wheels) suspension took up excessive internal space, the two-man turret was too cramped and made the tank essentially impossible to fight, the manufacture quality of many of the components varied from excellent to abysmal (for example the radiator). The later T-34/85 introduced a larger three-man turret, but many of the vehicles earlier flaws remained the same. There were several attempts to introduce changes to the basic design, the most notable being the T34M which included a switch to torsion-bar suspension, and the T-43 which introduced heavier armour; however the main impetus was a demand for a larger caliber gun and such programs were terminated.
The one omission I would like to make note of is that surely the T-34 must probably be the most destroyed tank of WW2!
Further I must point out one more error; "Its evolutionary development led directly to the T-54/55 series of tanks, and from there to the T-62, T-72, and T-90 tanks..." is simply not true. The design lineage of the T-34 began with the T-34/76 and ended with the T-34/85. The T-54/55 and T62 trace their ancestry back to the T-34s original replacement, the T-44 which was an entirely new design.
Andy Loates
I must differ with your last point. The T-44 was an obvious follow-on to the T-34-85 and shared quite a few components. The turret design, while 'new', was very close to the T-34-85 turret. The major difference was the transversely-mounted engine (same as the T-34) and transmission, and the torsion-bar suspension, both of which allowed for a lower hull. DMorpheus2 ( talk) 19:05, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but you are quite wrong. The T44 was a clean-sheet design; yes, it had a similar turret to the T34 but it doesn't mean anything. The M8 armoured car, T17 armoured car, and Medium Tank M3 all had very similar, almost identical turrets for their 37mm gun, but they were in no way related designs. You say "The T-44 was an obvious follow-on to the T-34-85 and shared quite a few components"; I say the early M1 Abrams was the obvious follow-on to the M60A3TTS, and shared similar components, including the main tank gun; does that mean the M1 was based on the M60? Would you say the Chieftain was an evolutionary development of the Centurion? No. They were clean-sheet designs, as was the T44, which was longer, wider, lower, and more powerful than the T34, and was, ironically given the Panthers genesis, designed to defeat this German tank. 143.167.143.33 ( talk) 13:57, 17 February 2016 (UTC)Andy L
The T-34-85 and T-44 shared the same main gun, very similar turret, identical engines, and identical road wheels and tracks. The main differences were that the T-44 had torsion-bar suspension and a transversely-mounted engine with a new transmission. Torsion-bar suspension was also the intent on the T-34M so the idea had been around since 1940, but the war suggested, correctly, to the USSR that they should concentrate on producing thousands of pretty-good T-34s rather than switching production and thus suffering much smaller production numbers for a slightly-better T-34M tank. With the luxury of winning the war, they could go back to designing nice new tanks. You're correct that the T-44 was developed to counter the Panther. Nothing 'ironic' about it - what else would you expect the Red Army to do? The notion that it was a wholly-new design is simply contradicted by the facts. It was rejected for mass production precisely *because* it wasn't a big enough leap ahead; it could not carry the desired 100mm gun. Thus the T-54 was developed almost immediately.
The M8 armored car had an open-topped turret that bears virtually no resemblance to the T17 or M3 Lee. Your other comparisions are just that - comparisions - which have nothing to do with this article. Regards, DMorpheus2 ( talk) 14:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Under China it says: "After the formation of the People's Republic of China (the PRC) in 1949, the Soviet Union sent many T-34s and T-34-85s to the PRC's People's Liberation Army (the PLA)." As I understand it the USSR has not sent any T-34/76s to China. Granted, I've got this from http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com and I don't know if this is considered a legitimate source or not but I thought I'd mention it. http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/china/chinese-tanks-1925-1950/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.148.113.168 ( talk) 08:29, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
In the lead is claimed: "Its choice of diesel engine power extended its range, and made it more difficult to brew up when it was hit." without source. Diesel was not more difficul to brew up as gasoline. I don't know were that myth coming from. Check that link: Gas Tanks, Fires, and Explosions Kheynom ( talk) 04:40, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
I just changed the lead to clean up some recent edits but also to address a couple of creeping scope issues.
In short, I'm trying to keep the article as focused on the T-34 as possible. Multiple times over its life there have crept in various amounts of info on the Red Army's fighting abilities and Soviet production capabilities, which have in turn been enmeshed in descriptions of the tank so that all three become confusingly entangled. For example, I'd like to keep out details of how many were destroyed in the context of how effective a tank it was. Factual statements of production and losses make perfect sense, but attempting to judge the merits of the tank based on its combat performance cannot be done without drawing in the poor doctrine, lousy training, low morale, poor logistics, inexperience at high levels of command etc etc of the force that fielded it. A well-designed tank remains well-designed even if employed by idiots. I've restated the loss details to reflect this approach, merely stating that many were built and many were destroyed by the Germans, without attempting to draw any wider conclusions. The later sections do a good job of addressing concrete shortcomings with specific details that explain how the Germans were able to destroy so many, but of course that level of detail doesn't belong in a lead.
Similarly, I've separated the fact that the tank was constantly modified as the war went on to make it cheaper/easier to build from the fact that the Soviets fielded far more tanks than the Germans. You simply cannot make this kind of conclusion without mixing apples and oranges: Soviet industry was vastly more efficient than German industry in terms of mass production, and then there are the separate issues of lend-lease and the western bombing campaign against German industry, all of which further muddy the waters. In this light, it would be best to avoid much in the way of implication that the design of the T-34 itself was responsible for the fact that the Soviets had more of them than the Germans had other tanks without direct cites to back it up, as it should be obvious that this is but one unquantifiable factor in the much larger story of comparative Soviet/Nazi production. Palindromedairy ( talk) 11:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
The following appears in Archive 6:
T-34-85 or T-34/85[edit] I'd like to suggest that we consistently use one or the other, and not mix both usages in the article. I suggest this mostly for the sake of good style.
Having said that, the Soviet and Russian usage is T-34-85, not T-34/85. This usage has been adopted much more commonly in newer English-language sources than T-34/85. The T-34/85 usage is a bit dated and, I'd guess, probably derived from the German usage of T-34/76 (a designation not generally used by the Soviets or Russians). Since this is a Soviet-era piece of equipment, not German, I suggest we use the Soviet/Russian usage.
Regards, DMorpheus2 (talk) 14:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
I prefer T-34/85 for clarity's sake. IMO it doesn't leave questions (or as many, anyhow) about what's referred to. (Maybe informed by hot rodder practise...) I'm not so wedded to it I'd demand it, & I do agree a consistent use is preferable. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 01:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC) Its potentially confusing when you consider the usage "T-54/55" , which refers to the T-54 and T-55 series of tanks, not to a T-54 armed with a 55mm gun ;) DMorpheus2 (talk) 15:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Fair point. We're not doing that on this page, tho, are we? (Are we? ;p ) TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 17:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC) The Slash comes from Finnish sources. For example the infantry rifle M/28-30, or submachine gun M/31. 69.60.229.207 (talk) 03:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Regards, DMorpheus2 ( talk) 16:34, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Again dealing with folks using "T-34/85" when "T-34-85" is correct and consensus on the talk page. Regards,
DMorpheus2 (
talk)
16:08, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
The Angolan Civil War section now seems to be as long as all the other usage sections combined. This seems too much coverage and detail for the base article on the T-34. I have tagged it as such. ( Hohum @) 03:03, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
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The armour section uses sources such as the Pantherfibel and Aberdeen trials. Which is fine if they are balanced and contributing to a larger picture. However they are not. The Aberdeen trial only shows 2 examples of war-weary T-34 1941 version tanks. That is not representative of all tanks of that batch, and it is certainly not representative of all the different models. Again, it is unknown exactly what the German Pantherfibel is based on, though probably they also had some tests of their own which I do not know off.
If no sources for the T-34 armour which describes the different models, and their technical data based on a larger sample size than 2 can be found, at least it should be mentioned that this is the case. Currently, this section reads as if the Aberdeen tests are authoritative of all T-34s when that is not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CarlGGHamilton ( talk • contribs) 09:42, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Our article currently says:
Not that I doubt that workers were treated badly, but if production time and complexity of assembly were also reduced, it is a bit strange to ascribe the reduction in cost to "underpaying & overworking" - that would suggest that these issues developed from 1941 to 1943 and were the only, or at least dominant, factor in that cost reduction. I would also be a bit reluctant on using a cold-war era military publisher for such a claim. -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 08:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
-- Ah, I'm glad someone else noticed this. I checked out the page referenced in citation [37b] - it has the statement about the cost being reduced pretty much 1:1 to how it appears in this article, but the other claims in this paragraph are not present. I moved the citation to the correct sentence and added 'citation needed' thingies to the other lines, since I truly can't figure out where this information is coming from. ---173.251.90.109 ( talk) 10:44, 10 October 2018
Per this old revision, the article was written in British English. -- John ( talk) 14:59, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Peter Samsonov author of Designing the T-34: Genesis of the Revolutionary Soviet Tank, claims there are a number of innaccuries in this article. He talks specifically about 3 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhPgw6X8ubE
I don't think that would be enough for me to make changes in the article, I don't own and haven't read his book, I'm not sure if a Youtube video would be considered a reliable source, and there are citations for the claims in the article, so I figured I'd just put this in the talk page rather than editing the article itself based on the video.
twfowler ( talk) 16:14, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
While the 76.2 mm gun on the T-34 was no howitzer, it was also by no means a "high velocity tank gun"... it was more of a medium-velocity dual-use gun like the similarly-calibered 75 mm US and British guns. The two different 75 mm guns on the Panzer IV and Panther, as well as the two different US three inch guns and the British 17 pounder of similar caliber to the 3 inch gun on the T-34 all fired shells at FAR higher velocities. This quote needs fixing. 2601:245:C101:9C70:A59E:5B97:996E:21D2 ( talk) 21:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't know what's a good source for this, but the T-34 is still being used currently in the Yemeni Civil War, isn't it? [1] That would make the Yemeni Civil War the most recent conflict to still use them. Fephisto ( talk) 20:32, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Does this count as use in a conflict? https://en.defence-ua.com/news/russians_already_use_t_34_though_not_the_way_expected_video-3540.html // Liftarn ( talk) Liftarn ( talk) 09:09, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
I've recently come to believe that the notion T-34s went into battle with a spare transmission is a myth. The first time I seriously began questioning it was when I read the Errata for Pulham and Kerrs' T-34 Shock. It brings some good point: "Reinterpretation of evidence: We refer to the well-photographed T-34 (L-11 Gun) abandoned in Lvov/Lviv, western Ukrainian SSR, of which two photographs can be found on page 107. However, we are inclined to agree that a more plausible reason for carrying the transmission on the back of the tank was the evacuation of a valuable spare part as concluded by Christian Mulsow in ‘The First T-34 Birth of a Legend : T-34 Model 1940’ (Erlangen: Tankograd, 2019), p. 121, because it was, indeed, a complicated job to replace the transmission." I've looked and there don't seem to be any other pictures of T-34s carrying transmissions anywhere. I suspect this will be a pain to recognise as a myth, though, since there's a ton of literature that repeated it, but hopefully we can get ahead of the curve on this page. Thoughts? MaxRavenclaw ( talk) 08:22, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
An edit I made removing content from this article was reverted so I'm going to "repropose" my edit. The edit was the removal of the final 4 sentences of the General Reliablity section due to it being sourced from a CIA document. In general you can't just quote a CIA document directly as these are primary sources that have to be handled with care. To directly quote from it without the use of any secondary source in this case has most likely led to the source being misused. Originalcola ( talk) 04:32, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
Not touching on anything that may or may not occur with current the conflict in Ukraine, shouldn't Russia still be considered a ceremonial operator of the T-34? Given that the mobile column of the Moscow victory day parade contains the tank. 2601:600:C701:2E70:3020:23F1:DC24:AAA2 ( talk) 06:06, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
@ 199.7.157.86: Your addition to the infobox has now been reverted by three separate users (four, if we include the same edit to T-64), making it quite clear that consensus is against your change. As you are making the change, it is your responsibility to use the talk page to get consensus for your edits, not the other way around. Loafiewa ( talk) 18:48, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
"one of the best tank designs in World War II; its excellent performance is one of the factors leading to Soviet success in defending against invasion by Nazi Germany."
This doesn't really seem to be a summary of what said in the article, which says "the Soviet corps equipped with these new tanks lost most of them within weeks".
It may be truer to say it's upgraded version, the T-34-85 helped win against Germany once the tide turned, though. ( Hohum @) 18:56, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
I may not be a professional in this, but German generals praising the tank, when literally 50% of all T-34s did not make through WW2, were all deployed in the eastern front. This feels like those German generals were trying to say "We didn't fail strategically and tactically, they had superior tanks, like the T-34!". This probably should be mentioned in the article. 93.105.177.2 ( talk) 20:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
I feel like it should be mentioned that the steel for the T-34 was annealed at 600 degrees celsius, which led to the steel being hard, but incredibly brittle. It is seen that the tank "cracks" in most photos. 95.160.158.208 ( talk) 20:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
The purported results of the examination of the T-34 by American engineers at the the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1943 is heavily cited in the current article - at least 6 direct citations by my count.
The trouble is that this source doesn't meeting any reasonable standards of relevance, accuracy, consistency, or reliability. It's also
Let's take this step by step:
1. Relevance - the sample size for this apparent analysis is a grand total of two tanks. Is this really the best available source to discuss the pros and cons of one of the most prolific tanks in history? Especially given the wide variability in production methods and approaches in the early models, weighing this source to this extent is questionable. Even if it had no other faults - and oh boy, does it have faults.
2. "Accuracy"
Optics - according to the source, the American engineers felt that the Model 1941 T-34 had the best optics of any tank fielded or in development.
Quote: "Optic - The general opinion: the best construction in the world. Incomparable with any existing tanks or any under development."
That sentence alone should cause anyone with actually knowledge of tanks throw the whole thing into the bin and light it on fire. For Pete's sake, the very wiki article itself points out several times that the optics of the T-34 were of mediocre quality at best.
Air filters - apparently, the Americans (in 1943) felt that the "Pomon" filters used in the Model 1941 T-34 didn't do anything. They recommended this terrible deficiency be fixed - and General Khlopov took this recommendation seriously enough to put it into his alleged report. The current article implies that this even had some practical impact - as the air filters were replaced with newly designed ones on the Model 1943.
The trouble is that the Model 1943 T-34 with the upgraded "Cyclone" filters started production in May of 1942 - roughly a year prior the American "evaluation." Now, perhaps the American engineers were not aware of this - they can't be blamed, they were evaluating the tanks in front of them. But why in the world did the very non-American General Khlopov feel it was necessary to put this down as a recommendation in his "report?" Not just any recommendation - this thing that had been done a year prior needed to be done "quickly!"
3. Consistency
Was the armor of the T-34 Model 1941 too soft or too hard? Because General Khlopov's report of the Aberdeen findings is very clear that the armor is too soft, and that's bad.
However, the Review of Soviet Ordnance Metallurgy document also cited by the wiki article, and also referring to the very tanks at Aberdeen definitively calls out the armor as being extremely hard relative to American approaches.
Quote: "The armor components of the T-34 tank, with the exception of the bow casting which was unheat-treated, were heat-treated to very high hardnesses (430-500 Brinell), probably in an attempt to secure maximum resistance to penetration by certain classes of armor-piercing projectiles even at the expense of structural integrity under ballistic attack. The armor components of the KV-1 heavy tank were heat-treated to hardnesses more nearly approaching American practice (280-320 Brinell)"
While on the topic of consistency, I'll note with interest that the unambiguously glowing characterization of the T-34's optics as "the best in the world" did not seem interesting enough to include in the current wiki article. If the source is good - why only pull in the information that negatively reflects on the machine?
4. Reliability - we're not looking at the report of the engineers from Aberdeen. We're not looking at an official summary of that report. We're looking - allegedly - at the translation of a transcription of report of the General Khlopov on the in-progress trials. Despite some determined searching in Russian and English sources - I have not been able to find a trace of the original document from Khlopov - only this transcriptions, copied endlessly from blog-post to blog-post.
Summary - this source is not fit to cite on this page. I recommend any associated paragraphs and statements be reviewed and either removed or supported with solid information. Theotherotherone ( talk) 05:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
For the undo:
He was spreading myths with this statement. German tanks were no more complex than the others, apart from the running gear. The Germans did improve their war industry, see the Panther cost as much as a Panzer IV. And this is the best.....as an ACADEMIC historian he is missing 2 important things: One: Germans were bombed to smithereens by 1944, production declined. NOT because of tank design. Second: the Soviets built more factories and BIGGER factories: production increased. The cost of a T-34 in 1945 was not much less than that of a Panther.
Szolnok95 ( talk) 16:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)