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I realize this is an extremely hair-splitting comment, but on the map of ethnic Hungarian repartition in Hargita/Kovászna/Maros, there is a spillover into Bakó megye, specifically the Gyimes pass/upper Tatros valley. In my experience most people in Felsölok, Középlok (Hargita megye) and especially Bükk and Nagy-Gyimes (Bakó megye) consider themselves Csángó rather than Székely (although they gladly admit they are descended from Székely who crossed the pass several hundred years ago). Any advice on an elegant, unobtrusive way to dispel the idea that all the Hungarians on the map are Székely? Hubacelgrand 02:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Other opinion: Ioan Aurel Pop, The Ethno-Confessional Structure of Medieval Transylvania and Hungary. Cluj Napoca, 1994 (bulletin of the Center for Transilvanian Studies, vol.III, nr.4, July 1994) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.27.78 ( talk) 18:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Archivum Ottomanicum, Volume 20, Mouton, 2002, p. 66 - this is not a proper citation (the author is necessary) and also the year of the estimation Tarabostes ( talk) 09:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
This [1] is an old estimation (at least 22 years old) Tarabostes ( talk) 11:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
English scientific works used and still use SICULI as in this work: http://www.magtudin.org/Barath_Tibor_The_Early_Hungarians%201.pdf Eurocentral ( talk) 06:52, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
http://www.magtudin.org/Barath_Tibor_The_Early_Hungarians.pdf(see page 137)
Works using SICULI name:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.20.90 ( talk) 06:04, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I suggest that you should carefully read what reliable source means for WP purposes. You might have not realized that we are in the year 2013 AD. I would like to ask you to stop wasting your own and other editor's time by citing more than hundred-year-old books in order to prove anything. Borsoka ( talk) 12:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
If references exist nobody can hide them. Even Borsuqa ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.50.218 ( talk) 16:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I think the truth is not given by the number of editors? But by the facts. Am I right? Hortobagy ( talk) 20:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
User Hortobagy has removed several sourced information from the article, mostly about the Magyar Autonomous Region. These includeded:
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
In 1952 the former province of Mureş (with the highest concentration of Székely population) was legally designated as the
Magyar Autonomous Region. It was superseded in 1960 by the Mureş Magyar Autonomous Region, itself divided in 1968 into three nonautonomous districts, Harghita, Covasna and Mureş.
[1]
Autonomy:
There were Székely autonomous regions from 1952-1968. First the Magyar Autonomous Region was created in 1952, later (1960) renamed Mureş-Magyar Autonomous Region. Ever since the abolition of the Mureş-Magyar Autonomous Region by the Ceauşescu regime in 1968, some of the Székely have pressed for their autonomy to be restored. Several proposals have been discussed within the Székely Hungarian community and by the Romanian majority. One of the Székely autonomy initiatives is based on the model of the Spanish autonomous community of Catalonia. [2]
A major peaceful demonstration was held in 2006 in favor of autonomy. [3]
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Please, explain us in detail why did you remove most sourced information about the Autonomous Region?
KœrteFa
{ταλκ} 22:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
References
I've full protected this article for a week. Any warring by anyone after that will result in an instant block, no waiting for violating 3RR. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I added below 2 reliable sources,from the many available, to solve the citation needed tag added a few days ago. It is a totally uncontroversial edit. The main political structure of the Szeklers is called Szekler National Council (the name is used also on their official site and the redirect from Szeklers exists since 2003)
--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Raysdiet ( talk • contribs) 07:03, 20 May 2013
From different sources appears that Siculi were speaking a Turkish language. Even Byzantine sources called Magyars and Siculi as Turks. Siculi are of Turkish-Avar origin. No connections with huns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.20.90 ( talk) 06:48, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't see any relevance of mentioning Magyarization in the lead of *this* article, unless there are direct sources which connect the Székely people with Magyarization. Similarly, I do not see too much reference to Romanianization in the lead of the article about the Romanians... KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
WP:NPOV: Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic
Question for User:Fakirbakir and User:Koertefa: In Sherrill Stroschein's view, they Szeklers identify themselves as Hungarians for political purposes. Which are the other significant views that are ignored by using this phrasing? 79.117.188.208 ( talk) 14:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
There is a huge difference between being a Hungarian sub-group with peculiar identity and being an entirely different non-Hungarian ethnic group. You misinterpret Szekler identity. Of course UDMR asked Szeklers to be Hungarian because there were two options in the census (Szekler and Hungarian). Romanian government maliciously wanted (wants) to divide Hungarian minority in Romania irrespective of the opinion of scholars. Fakirbakir ( talk) 15:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I've removed the statement: "The Romanian government does not recognize the existence of a Székely Land." because I don't understand its meaning. How could Romania recognize a non-existing political entitiy? It is not like Kosovo or Transnistria, which are self-proclaimed entities 79.117.188.208 ( talk) 14:47, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Merge Székelys of Bukovina into Székelys? As per scope and shortness of both articles. -- Zoupan 15:59, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Quotation from article: "Székelys were part of the Avar confederation during the so-called Dark Ages, but this does not mean that they were ethnically Avar." Avars were not a homogeneous people, just like any other steppe peoples. There was a leading tribe, after which all the others of their tribes got their names. Therefore it is obvious that there is no such thing like "ethnically Avar". Other tribes as well were not ethnically Avars within the Avar confederation. 178.48.177.1 ( talk) 14:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
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This one appeared only very late after 1990 http://www.covasna.info.ro/szekely-zaszlo-a-az-onazonossag-es-az-autonomiaharc-jelkepe/ Skyhighway ( talk) 12:30, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Is there a reference for this? I've never seen this spelling, nor does Google seem aware of it. -- Elphion ( talk) 22:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Magysze: there are ongoing debates on the "Szekely language" in multiple Talk pages ( here, here and here). Please do not expand them to new articles. Please also remember that the possible Turkic origin of the Székelys is already mentioned in the article, so no need to repeat it and it cannot be presented as a fact as per WP:NPOV. Please also remember WP:3RR. Borsoka ( talk) 17:10, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
New article to be expanded, your help is needed. Controversy on Szekely language Magysze ( talk) 18:06, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
US comedian Louis CK's abbreviation-style last name is taken from Székelys I believe. "CK" is the closest to correct pronunciation in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.159.144.133 ( talk) 00:11, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Good afternoon. I read a lot of theories and genetic studies on the internet. For example, a genetic study in the 1990s showed that the seven closest peoples to the Szeklers are the Hungarians and the Iranians (Scythians, Persians, Sarmatians). There is a theory to support this. CsifoZsombor ( talk) 13:33, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
{u{|Super}} I agree, but the academy did not take into account that the Szeklers have their own culture, dialect, and their own national consciousness. A genetic scientist who worked at the MTA conducted tests on them and showed that there were many externalities. I think the academy was wrong in this case. CsifoZsombor ( talk) 04:22, 16 September 2021 (UTC) -- CsifoZsombor ( talk) 04:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)CsifoZsobmor
Reason. If you wish, I will send you the genetic results that Endre Czeiczel's genetic tests of the Hungarian MTA. -- CsifoZsombor ( talk) CsifoZsombor
I do not know why the Szeklers are called a"subgroup" They have a separate culture, flag, dialect, folklore, yet they call them subgroup. This is a separate ethnic group, they are placed in Romania as separate people. The MTA may have written something, but I'm not sure it's true. Organizations in Szeklerland also treat it as a separate people.-- CsifoZsombor ( talk)CsifoZsombor
How can you be a "subgroup" of the Hungarian people if there is a large genetically large difference between the two ethnic groups? Endre Czeizel proved this, he is one of the best Hungarian geneticists.
https://m.nyest.hu/media/a-szekely-minta-genetikai-tavolsaga-a-tobbi-etnikai-csoporttol-es-mas-neessegektol.jpg?large
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:38, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
Why is there an s on this? Szekely is a group, not a barrel of nails. Athanasius V ( talk) 11:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
There are many vandalism by Romanian anonym IPs. Szekelys are a Hungarian subroup in Transylvania. Transylvania was Hungarian land 1000 years long, since 1920 part of Romania. Thus, many Romanians did not like local Hungarians in Transylvania. Please set the page to be protected to avoid future vandalism. Some examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=1099895094&oldid=1096871680
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=1092462063&oldid=1092461817
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=864925568&oldid=864925450
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=996329238&oldid=989851095
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=864925450&oldid=864925007
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=1092461817&oldid=1089723935
Another Szekely related site:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székely_Land&diff=1092510786&oldid=1092480254
Explanation of the vandalism from an administrator from the Romanian wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:OrionNimrod&diff=1092885436&oldid=1092885021 OrionNimrod ( talk) 16:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
I deleted a long paragraph from the "Origins" section, which paraphrases a scholar working in the 1920s who connected the Szekely to a group called the Gepids. The paragraph didn't cite sources. It might be worth recovering the paragraph, re-writing it with a more neutral tone, and finding sources for the material, but at the moment the paragraph doesn't seem relevant or valuable enough to understanding the topic as it stands. Transfigurationblues ( talk) 15:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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|
I realize this is an extremely hair-splitting comment, but on the map of ethnic Hungarian repartition in Hargita/Kovászna/Maros, there is a spillover into Bakó megye, specifically the Gyimes pass/upper Tatros valley. In my experience most people in Felsölok, Középlok (Hargita megye) and especially Bükk and Nagy-Gyimes (Bakó megye) consider themselves Csángó rather than Székely (although they gladly admit they are descended from Székely who crossed the pass several hundred years ago). Any advice on an elegant, unobtrusive way to dispel the idea that all the Hungarians on the map are Székely? Hubacelgrand 02:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Other opinion: Ioan Aurel Pop, The Ethno-Confessional Structure of Medieval Transylvania and Hungary. Cluj Napoca, 1994 (bulletin of the Center for Transilvanian Studies, vol.III, nr.4, July 1994) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.27.78 ( talk) 18:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Archivum Ottomanicum, Volume 20, Mouton, 2002, p. 66 - this is not a proper citation (the author is necessary) and also the year of the estimation Tarabostes ( talk) 09:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
This [1] is an old estimation (at least 22 years old) Tarabostes ( talk) 11:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
English scientific works used and still use SICULI as in this work: http://www.magtudin.org/Barath_Tibor_The_Early_Hungarians%201.pdf Eurocentral ( talk) 06:52, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
http://www.magtudin.org/Barath_Tibor_The_Early_Hungarians.pdf(see page 137)
Works using SICULI name:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.20.90 ( talk) 06:04, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I suggest that you should carefully read what reliable source means for WP purposes. You might have not realized that we are in the year 2013 AD. I would like to ask you to stop wasting your own and other editor's time by citing more than hundred-year-old books in order to prove anything. Borsoka ( talk) 12:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
If references exist nobody can hide them. Even Borsuqa ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.50.218 ( talk) 16:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I think the truth is not given by the number of editors? But by the facts. Am I right? Hortobagy ( talk) 20:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
User Hortobagy has removed several sourced information from the article, mostly about the Magyar Autonomous Region. These includeded:
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
In 1952 the former province of Mureş (with the highest concentration of Székely population) was legally designated as the
Magyar Autonomous Region. It was superseded in 1960 by the Mureş Magyar Autonomous Region, itself divided in 1968 into three nonautonomous districts, Harghita, Covasna and Mureş.
[1]
Autonomy:
There were Székely autonomous regions from 1952-1968. First the Magyar Autonomous Region was created in 1952, later (1960) renamed Mureş-Magyar Autonomous Region. Ever since the abolition of the Mureş-Magyar Autonomous Region by the Ceauşescu regime in 1968, some of the Székely have pressed for their autonomy to be restored. Several proposals have been discussed within the Székely Hungarian community and by the Romanian majority. One of the Székely autonomy initiatives is based on the model of the Spanish autonomous community of Catalonia. [2]
A major peaceful demonstration was held in 2006 in favor of autonomy. [3]
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Please, explain us in detail why did you remove most sourced information about the Autonomous Region?
KœrteFa
{ταλκ} 22:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
References
I've full protected this article for a week. Any warring by anyone after that will result in an instant block, no waiting for violating 3RR. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I added below 2 reliable sources,from the many available, to solve the citation needed tag added a few days ago. It is a totally uncontroversial edit. The main political structure of the Szeklers is called Szekler National Council (the name is used also on their official site and the redirect from Szeklers exists since 2003)
--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Raysdiet ( talk • contribs) 07:03, 20 May 2013
From different sources appears that Siculi were speaking a Turkish language. Even Byzantine sources called Magyars and Siculi as Turks. Siculi are of Turkish-Avar origin. No connections with huns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.20.90 ( talk) 06:48, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't see any relevance of mentioning Magyarization in the lead of *this* article, unless there are direct sources which connect the Székely people with Magyarization. Similarly, I do not see too much reference to Romanianization in the lead of the article about the Romanians... KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
WP:NPOV: Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic
Question for User:Fakirbakir and User:Koertefa: In Sherrill Stroschein's view, they Szeklers identify themselves as Hungarians for political purposes. Which are the other significant views that are ignored by using this phrasing? 79.117.188.208 ( talk) 14:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
There is a huge difference between being a Hungarian sub-group with peculiar identity and being an entirely different non-Hungarian ethnic group. You misinterpret Szekler identity. Of course UDMR asked Szeklers to be Hungarian because there were two options in the census (Szekler and Hungarian). Romanian government maliciously wanted (wants) to divide Hungarian minority in Romania irrespective of the opinion of scholars. Fakirbakir ( talk) 15:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I've removed the statement: "The Romanian government does not recognize the existence of a Székely Land." because I don't understand its meaning. How could Romania recognize a non-existing political entitiy? It is not like Kosovo or Transnistria, which are self-proclaimed entities 79.117.188.208 ( talk) 14:47, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Merge Székelys of Bukovina into Székelys? As per scope and shortness of both articles. -- Zoupan 15:59, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Quotation from article: "Székelys were part of the Avar confederation during the so-called Dark Ages, but this does not mean that they were ethnically Avar." Avars were not a homogeneous people, just like any other steppe peoples. There was a leading tribe, after which all the others of their tribes got their names. Therefore it is obvious that there is no such thing like "ethnically Avar". Other tribes as well were not ethnically Avars within the Avar confederation. 178.48.177.1 ( talk) 14:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Székelys. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:24, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
This one appeared only very late after 1990 http://www.covasna.info.ro/szekely-zaszlo-a-az-onazonossag-es-az-autonomiaharc-jelkepe/ Skyhighway ( talk) 12:30, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Is there a reference for this? I've never seen this spelling, nor does Google seem aware of it. -- Elphion ( talk) 22:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Magysze: there are ongoing debates on the "Szekely language" in multiple Talk pages ( here, here and here). Please do not expand them to new articles. Please also remember that the possible Turkic origin of the Székelys is already mentioned in the article, so no need to repeat it and it cannot be presented as a fact as per WP:NPOV. Please also remember WP:3RR. Borsoka ( talk) 17:10, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
New article to be expanded, your help is needed. Controversy on Szekely language Magysze ( talk) 18:06, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
US comedian Louis CK's abbreviation-style last name is taken from Székelys I believe. "CK" is the closest to correct pronunciation in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.159.144.133 ( talk) 00:11, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Good afternoon. I read a lot of theories and genetic studies on the internet. For example, a genetic study in the 1990s showed that the seven closest peoples to the Szeklers are the Hungarians and the Iranians (Scythians, Persians, Sarmatians). There is a theory to support this. CsifoZsombor ( talk) 13:33, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
{u{|Super}} I agree, but the academy did not take into account that the Szeklers have their own culture, dialect, and their own national consciousness. A genetic scientist who worked at the MTA conducted tests on them and showed that there were many externalities. I think the academy was wrong in this case. CsifoZsombor ( talk) 04:22, 16 September 2021 (UTC) -- CsifoZsombor ( talk) 04:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)CsifoZsobmor
Reason. If you wish, I will send you the genetic results that Endre Czeiczel's genetic tests of the Hungarian MTA. -- CsifoZsombor ( talk) CsifoZsombor
I do not know why the Szeklers are called a"subgroup" They have a separate culture, flag, dialect, folklore, yet they call them subgroup. This is a separate ethnic group, they are placed in Romania as separate people. The MTA may have written something, but I'm not sure it's true. Organizations in Szeklerland also treat it as a separate people.-- CsifoZsombor ( talk)CsifoZsombor
How can you be a "subgroup" of the Hungarian people if there is a large genetically large difference between the two ethnic groups? Endre Czeizel proved this, he is one of the best Hungarian geneticists.
https://m.nyest.hu/media/a-szekely-minta-genetikai-tavolsaga-a-tobbi-etnikai-csoporttol-es-mas-neessegektol.jpg?large
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:38, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
Why is there an s on this? Szekely is a group, not a barrel of nails. Athanasius V ( talk) 11:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
There are many vandalism by Romanian anonym IPs. Szekelys are a Hungarian subroup in Transylvania. Transylvania was Hungarian land 1000 years long, since 1920 part of Romania. Thus, many Romanians did not like local Hungarians in Transylvania. Please set the page to be protected to avoid future vandalism. Some examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=1099895094&oldid=1096871680
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=1092462063&oldid=1092461817
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=864925568&oldid=864925450
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=996329238&oldid=989851095
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=864925450&oldid=864925007
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székelys&diff=1092461817&oldid=1089723935
Another Szekely related site:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Székely_Land&diff=1092510786&oldid=1092480254
Explanation of the vandalism from an administrator from the Romanian wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:OrionNimrod&diff=1092885436&oldid=1092885021 OrionNimrod ( talk) 16:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
I deleted a long paragraph from the "Origins" section, which paraphrases a scholar working in the 1920s who connected the Szekely to a group called the Gepids. The paragraph didn't cite sources. It might be worth recovering the paragraph, re-writing it with a more neutral tone, and finding sources for the material, but at the moment the paragraph doesn't seem relevant or valuable enough to understanding the topic as it stands. Transfigurationblues ( talk) 15:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)