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On 7 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Syro-Malabar Church. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
On 10 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Syro-Malabar Catholic Church to Syro-Malabar Church. The result of the discussion was moved. |
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 08:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – Syro-Malabar Church is WP:COMMONNAME and can be seen in the ngram and WP:CONCISE similar to Latin Church and Maronite Church. Moreover Vatican documents refer to the church as “Syro-Malabar Church” -
71.201.78.227 ( talk) 02:50, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – The term is WP:Concise, WP:COMMON here, and the website contains the naming too http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/, so the name is official . There is no naming convention so any naming should be based on Wikipedia policy. Manabimasu ( talk) 03:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC); Manabimasu ( talk) 13:26, 3 September 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. — Logosx127 ( talk) 15:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The title was previously discussed in here and the consensus was created in favour of Syro-Malabar Church. Due to the above elaborated reasons and existing Wikipedia conventions, the title should be restored as early as possible. Logosx127 ( talk) 15:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Pinging Natemup as involved in the last discussion. Not sure why they were neglected in the pings. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 18:15, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 10:27, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – The term is WP:Concise, WP:PRECISE WP:COMMON [1], and the official website contains the naming too [2]. Logosx127 ( talk) 16:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 07:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
All of the discussionsled to the current name, which existed unchallenged for months except by the same IP editor that has been the only editor to join you in support of your move. There is more extant support for the current name than for the move. Sorry, but you can't count !votes from a 3.5-year-old overturned discussion. In any case, COMMONNAME supports the current name and longstanding practice across similar articles (with one exception in 24) all concur with the current name. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 23:24, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
also known as the Roman Catholic Church.
@ Pbritti The source that you have used gives 1599 too as seen the gbooks summary. And removing the Chaldean Catholic metropolitans doesn't make sense considering the fact that the pre-hierarchy bishops are already listed. Logosx127 ( talk) 06:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Comment: The archives of this talk page have several discussions about the founding date. This discussion [15] is the most recent and appears to be comprehensive, so it would probably be helpful for those interested in participating in this discussion to read through those previous discussions. — Archer1234 ( t· c) 17:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Brock is fine, but you have to prove where these sources explicitly say that the Syro-Malabar's came into being at your preferred date. You can't just say "I prefer X author". ~ Pbritti ( talk) 15:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Sebastian Brock: This sui juris Catholic Church of the E.-Syr. liturgical tradition represents the continuity of the Catholic ecclesial tradition in South India that came into being in the 16th cent. (see Thomas Christians).Logosx127 ( talk) 01:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Istvan Perczel: With the foundation of the Syro-Malabar Church in 1887,finally granting an indigenous archbishop to the Malabar Catholics, the movementobtained one of its goals.
Peshitta, (Syriac: “simple” or “common”) Syriac version of the Bible, the accepted Bible of Syrian Christian churches from the end of the 3rd century CE. The SMC is by definition a Syriac Church and therefore the source. Considering it being a generalised citation, I have added another source which explicitly mentions the SMC. Logosx127 ( talk) 16:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Do you have a source that uses any of the dates other than the ones that existed before your modifications to the article and 1887? Any dates that explicitly say "the Syro-Malabar Church began in X year"? Otherwise, the only dates worth considering are those you removed and 1887 (we could also leave 52 AD due to church's claims on their website). ~ Pbritti ( talk) 15:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
What I understand as your pov is that you recognise the Catholic Church as a denomination and the various Eastern Catholic Churches, in your view, are simply subgroups. Well I don't agree with that pov. Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination. Similarly each of the ECCs is a denomination. Maronites comprise a particular denomination of Christians in the Middle East, similarly Chaldeans, Syriacs, Melkites. The Wikipedia definitions for the word church are given in the disambiguation page
church, wherein it is defined as a building of Christian worship, congregation or denomination. The definition for
Christian denomination is given as: A Christian denomination is a distinct
religious body within
Christianity that comprises all
church congregations of the same kind, identifiable by traits such as a name, particular history, organization, leadership,
theological doctrine, worship style and, sometimes, a founder. It is a secular and neutral term, generally used to denote any established Christian church.
Here, the SMC satisfies all the criteria, (1) it is within Christianity, (2) it is comprised of congregations (parishes/dioceses/provinces), (3) well it has its own distinctive name, (4) it has distinct history from that of the CC, (5) it has a well defined organisation, (6) it has its own leadership (the major archbishop being it's worldwide head), (7) East Syriac theological doctrines, (8) Syro-Malabar Rite liturgy and worship style and most notably Saint Thomas as founder (though legendary). Therefore the SMC is indeed a denomination.
Logosx127 (
talk) 03:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination, find a reliable source that does so. Otherwise, you're creating your own definition of denomination and making errant claims to fit the Syro-Malabar Church within it (see Begging the question). By the definition given above, the Society of Jesus could be classified as a denomination. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 01:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is one of the 23 Eastern (Oriental) Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome. It is the largest Eastern Catholic Church after the Ukrainian Church and the largest of the Saint Thomas Christian (Nazrani) denominations with 5 million believers.
Among the denominations in the Christian community, the Syro-. Malabar Catholics are the most dispersed denomination(Religious Denominations of Kerala). Logosx127 ( talk) 08:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Cardinal Mar George Alencherry, the head of Kerala's prominent Christian denomination, the Syro Malabar Catholic Church..
Telangana, Bishop Raphael Thattil has been elected as major archbishop of the powerful Syro-Malabar Church. The church is the largest denomination of Catholics in India and prominent among the 22 oriental Catholic churches that are in full communion with Rome.
Though the Syro-Malabar Church has more than 3.6 million members, more than half a million of them are scattered outside Kerala state, where the church remains the largest Christian denomination.
A day after the Syro-Malabar Church's Public Affairs Commission rallied behind Bishop Mar Joseph Kallarangatt in the 'narcotic jihad' row, the denomination 's largest religious publication, Sathyadeepam, has struck a contradictory not
One church of the Syro-Malabar denomination in Kerala's Wayanad district has offered 10,000 rupeela's 00) for a couple's fifth child.
the holy communion of two souls in the traditional way of this denomination of Christianity.
The Syro-Malabar Church, the largest Christian denomination in Kerala, on Wednesday
Kerala’s Syro-Malabar Church To date, the denomination owns 22 churches in the US.Logosx127 ( talk) 17:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I think you're way out of your element there. You'd need to prove that to a lot of other people who won't agree. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 12:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
scholarly accepted definitionsand sources, none of which you have been able to provide till now. I think you yourself is the said scholar and sources, if I must guess. Meanwhile catholic historian and orientalist Dietmar Winkler also classifies the SMC as a denomination in the Syriac World (2018). I opt to follow the official website and scholarly sources on this matter. Logosx127 ( talk) 18:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Please check the seven sources used for defining a denomination within the article Christian denomination. A denomination, as the Wikipedia definition states isn't a religious term. It is a secular and neutral term that is frequently used as a misnomer. In the context of Christian religion, a denomination is a family of many similar individual/national/particular churches that are bound together historically, though doctrine, organization, leadership and several other aspects. The Church of Nigeria is a national church that is part of the global Anglican church (denomination). The Church of Sweden is a national church that is part of the global Lutheran church (denomination). The Methodist Church of New Zealand is a national church that is part of the global Methodism (denomination). The Assemblies of God is an individual church that is part of global Pentecostalism (denomination). The Russian Orthodox Church is a national church that is part of the larger Eastern Orthodox Church (denomination). Likewise, the Syro-Malabar Church is a constituent particular church of the Roman Catholic church (denomination), for which the Pope is the supreme head. In other words, there may be tens of thousands of individual churches, but only a handful of denominations. I agree that the distinctions between a denomination and an individual/national/particular church is blurred to many people and there are many resources including Wikipedia articles that wrongly call an individual church a denomination.-- Macinderum ( talk) 08:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
anyone can find sources to support their point of view". It is not about anyone finding some random sources available online. The sources I provided are of atmost important such as the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the Church and legal as well as academic sources. You cannot simply disregard those sources just because you think in a different way or you have a dissenting pov. Hope that's clear. Logosx127 ( talk) 12:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
The pope can impose decisions upon the Syro-Malabaris partially untrue. The pope simply cannot impose his decisions in every field. The bishops are to be appointed by the Patriarch and the Patriarch is the supreme authority on liturgy. That does not mean that pope is devoid of his powers, the pope simply do not have that extend of powers in the ECC's as he does in the Latin Church. Just because a person in charge has authority at different strata, the strata does not get mixed up into one. Authority of the pope as the head of the Roman/Latin Catholic Church (appointment of bishops, legislations, doctrinal and liturgical promulgations etc.) is different from the authority he holds as the Head of the Catholic Church. For another example, the British Monarch is the head of the State of not just the United Kingdom, but also the entire fourteen Commonwealth Realms including Canada, Australia and the New Zealand. He can potentially exercise a wide range of authority, though almost always delegated to the respective Governor Generals. This simply does not mean that those are colonies or devoid of sovereign statehood. Similarly, the Pope enjoys universal jurisdiction throughout the Catholic Church Communion or denominational family. But almost all of the day to day administration of the ECCs (including appointment of bishops, administrators, regular legislations, liturgical promulgations etc.) is undertaken by their patriarchs, who act in their own capacity as 'Head of the Church' and not as some kind of a delegate of the pope. Denomination is not determined by who controls authority (especially outside the Catholic Church denominational family), but by the liturgy, culture, doctrine, spirituality, history and self-identification. The SMC identifies itself as a denomination, state authorities recognise it as such and the authoritative academic sources who study the SMC in detail also classifies it as a denomination. I just do not need to disregard these most important sources in favour of some old, western oriented (the problem is not the fact that these are western, but the inherent confusion they have over the Roman Catholic/Latin denomination with entire Catholic Church denominational family) and non-academic tertiary sources. Logosx127 ( talk) 09:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination).Note that Roman Catholicism (meaning Catholicism obviously) is listed not as a denomination but as a tradition. Similarly Oriental Orthodoxy is listed as a tradition and Coptic Orthodox as a denomination within it.
It's been more than a week. Nobody else agrees. Unless you want this to go elsewhere for discussion, I think we can safely say this conversation has been exhausted. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 23:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination). Logosx127 ( talk) 00:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
denomination Catholic Church, sui juris church Syro-Malabarwere actually put by you yourself very recently as proven from [16] [17] [18] This proves its simply your personal, biased and isolated POV and original research. If you were honestly looking for the existing Wikipedia consensus, you should have considered List of Christian denominations, and Christian denomination for reference, were the Syro-Malabar Church has been already listed as a denomination. If you are looking outside for reliable sources, the tertiary sources are of much less value compared to academic secondary sources such as the Syriac World (2019), an extremely important reliable source used as the main source in multiple articles in Wikipedia, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is mentioned as a denomination. Thirdly, the SMC's own OFFICIAL WEBSITE too holds itself to he a denomination. This makes all your arguments as baseless as a house of cards, especially taking your own edits and masquerading those as result of consensus. If you genuinely want to change the existing Wikipedia consensus and list the Catholic Church as a denomination instead of Christian tradition/denominational family and the SMC as a non-denomination instead of the present status of denomination, you should first discuss on relevant articles and spaces elsewhere where you would get better visibility and make corresponding changes in the consensus. If you do so, you can potentially change this article in the similar fashion. But until then, the SMC will remain a denomination, no matter what your POV is. Logosx127 ( talk) 23:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Let's allow others to answer. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 13:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Syro-Malabar Church article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 360 days |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 7 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Syro-Malabar Church. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
On 10 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Syro-Malabar Catholic Church to Syro-Malabar Church. The result of the discussion was moved. |
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 08:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – Syro-Malabar Church is WP:COMMONNAME and can be seen in the ngram and WP:CONCISE similar to Latin Church and Maronite Church. Moreover Vatican documents refer to the church as “Syro-Malabar Church” -
71.201.78.227 ( talk) 02:50, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – The term is WP:Concise, WP:COMMON here, and the website contains the naming too http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/, so the name is official . There is no naming convention so any naming should be based on Wikipedia policy. Manabimasu ( talk) 03:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC); Manabimasu ( talk) 13:26, 3 September 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. — Logosx127 ( talk) 15:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The title was previously discussed in here and the consensus was created in favour of Syro-Malabar Church. Due to the above elaborated reasons and existing Wikipedia conventions, the title should be restored as early as possible. Logosx127 ( talk) 15:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Pinging Natemup as involved in the last discussion. Not sure why they were neglected in the pings. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 18:15, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 10:27, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – The term is WP:Concise, WP:PRECISE WP:COMMON [1], and the official website contains the naming too [2]. Logosx127 ( talk) 16:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 07:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
All of the discussionsled to the current name, which existed unchallenged for months except by the same IP editor that has been the only editor to join you in support of your move. There is more extant support for the current name than for the move. Sorry, but you can't count !votes from a 3.5-year-old overturned discussion. In any case, COMMONNAME supports the current name and longstanding practice across similar articles (with one exception in 24) all concur with the current name. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 23:24, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
also known as the Roman Catholic Church.
@ Pbritti The source that you have used gives 1599 too as seen the gbooks summary. And removing the Chaldean Catholic metropolitans doesn't make sense considering the fact that the pre-hierarchy bishops are already listed. Logosx127 ( talk) 06:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Comment: The archives of this talk page have several discussions about the founding date. This discussion [15] is the most recent and appears to be comprehensive, so it would probably be helpful for those interested in participating in this discussion to read through those previous discussions. — Archer1234 ( t· c) 17:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Brock is fine, but you have to prove where these sources explicitly say that the Syro-Malabar's came into being at your preferred date. You can't just say "I prefer X author". ~ Pbritti ( talk) 15:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Sebastian Brock: This sui juris Catholic Church of the E.-Syr. liturgical tradition represents the continuity of the Catholic ecclesial tradition in South India that came into being in the 16th cent. (see Thomas Christians).Logosx127 ( talk) 01:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Istvan Perczel: With the foundation of the Syro-Malabar Church in 1887,finally granting an indigenous archbishop to the Malabar Catholics, the movementobtained one of its goals.
Peshitta, (Syriac: “simple” or “common”) Syriac version of the Bible, the accepted Bible of Syrian Christian churches from the end of the 3rd century CE. The SMC is by definition a Syriac Church and therefore the source. Considering it being a generalised citation, I have added another source which explicitly mentions the SMC. Logosx127 ( talk) 16:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Do you have a source that uses any of the dates other than the ones that existed before your modifications to the article and 1887? Any dates that explicitly say "the Syro-Malabar Church began in X year"? Otherwise, the only dates worth considering are those you removed and 1887 (we could also leave 52 AD due to church's claims on their website). ~ Pbritti ( talk) 15:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
What I understand as your pov is that you recognise the Catholic Church as a denomination and the various Eastern Catholic Churches, in your view, are simply subgroups. Well I don't agree with that pov. Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination. Similarly each of the ECCs is a denomination. Maronites comprise a particular denomination of Christians in the Middle East, similarly Chaldeans, Syriacs, Melkites. The Wikipedia definitions for the word church are given in the disambiguation page
church, wherein it is defined as a building of Christian worship, congregation or denomination. The definition for
Christian denomination is given as: A Christian denomination is a distinct
religious body within
Christianity that comprises all
church congregations of the same kind, identifiable by traits such as a name, particular history, organization, leadership,
theological doctrine, worship style and, sometimes, a founder. It is a secular and neutral term, generally used to denote any established Christian church.
Here, the SMC satisfies all the criteria, (1) it is within Christianity, (2) it is comprised of congregations (parishes/dioceses/provinces), (3) well it has its own distinctive name, (4) it has distinct history from that of the CC, (5) it has a well defined organisation, (6) it has its own leadership (the major archbishop being it's worldwide head), (7) East Syriac theological doctrines, (8) Syro-Malabar Rite liturgy and worship style and most notably Saint Thomas as founder (though legendary). Therefore the SMC is indeed a denomination.
Logosx127 (
talk) 03:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination, find a reliable source that does so. Otherwise, you're creating your own definition of denomination and making errant claims to fit the Syro-Malabar Church within it (see Begging the question). By the definition given above, the Society of Jesus could be classified as a denomination. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 01:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is one of the 23 Eastern (Oriental) Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome. It is the largest Eastern Catholic Church after the Ukrainian Church and the largest of the Saint Thomas Christian (Nazrani) denominations with 5 million believers.
Among the denominations in the Christian community, the Syro-. Malabar Catholics are the most dispersed denomination(Religious Denominations of Kerala). Logosx127 ( talk) 08:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Cardinal Mar George Alencherry, the head of Kerala's prominent Christian denomination, the Syro Malabar Catholic Church..
Telangana, Bishop Raphael Thattil has been elected as major archbishop of the powerful Syro-Malabar Church. The church is the largest denomination of Catholics in India and prominent among the 22 oriental Catholic churches that are in full communion with Rome.
Though the Syro-Malabar Church has more than 3.6 million members, more than half a million of them are scattered outside Kerala state, where the church remains the largest Christian denomination.
A day after the Syro-Malabar Church's Public Affairs Commission rallied behind Bishop Mar Joseph Kallarangatt in the 'narcotic jihad' row, the denomination 's largest religious publication, Sathyadeepam, has struck a contradictory not
One church of the Syro-Malabar denomination in Kerala's Wayanad district has offered 10,000 rupeela's 00) for a couple's fifth child.
the holy communion of two souls in the traditional way of this denomination of Christianity.
The Syro-Malabar Church, the largest Christian denomination in Kerala, on Wednesday
Kerala’s Syro-Malabar Church To date, the denomination owns 22 churches in the US.Logosx127 ( talk) 17:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I think you're way out of your element there. You'd need to prove that to a lot of other people who won't agree. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 12:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
scholarly accepted definitionsand sources, none of which you have been able to provide till now. I think you yourself is the said scholar and sources, if I must guess. Meanwhile catholic historian and orientalist Dietmar Winkler also classifies the SMC as a denomination in the Syriac World (2018). I opt to follow the official website and scholarly sources on this matter. Logosx127 ( talk) 18:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Please check the seven sources used for defining a denomination within the article Christian denomination. A denomination, as the Wikipedia definition states isn't a religious term. It is a secular and neutral term that is frequently used as a misnomer. In the context of Christian religion, a denomination is a family of many similar individual/national/particular churches that are bound together historically, though doctrine, organization, leadership and several other aspects. The Church of Nigeria is a national church that is part of the global Anglican church (denomination). The Church of Sweden is a national church that is part of the global Lutheran church (denomination). The Methodist Church of New Zealand is a national church that is part of the global Methodism (denomination). The Assemblies of God is an individual church that is part of global Pentecostalism (denomination). The Russian Orthodox Church is a national church that is part of the larger Eastern Orthodox Church (denomination). Likewise, the Syro-Malabar Church is a constituent particular church of the Roman Catholic church (denomination), for which the Pope is the supreme head. In other words, there may be tens of thousands of individual churches, but only a handful of denominations. I agree that the distinctions between a denomination and an individual/national/particular church is blurred to many people and there are many resources including Wikipedia articles that wrongly call an individual church a denomination.-- Macinderum ( talk) 08:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
anyone can find sources to support their point of view". It is not about anyone finding some random sources available online. The sources I provided are of atmost important such as the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the Church and legal as well as academic sources. You cannot simply disregard those sources just because you think in a different way or you have a dissenting pov. Hope that's clear. Logosx127 ( talk) 12:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
The pope can impose decisions upon the Syro-Malabaris partially untrue. The pope simply cannot impose his decisions in every field. The bishops are to be appointed by the Patriarch and the Patriarch is the supreme authority on liturgy. That does not mean that pope is devoid of his powers, the pope simply do not have that extend of powers in the ECC's as he does in the Latin Church. Just because a person in charge has authority at different strata, the strata does not get mixed up into one. Authority of the pope as the head of the Roman/Latin Catholic Church (appointment of bishops, legislations, doctrinal and liturgical promulgations etc.) is different from the authority he holds as the Head of the Catholic Church. For another example, the British Monarch is the head of the State of not just the United Kingdom, but also the entire fourteen Commonwealth Realms including Canada, Australia and the New Zealand. He can potentially exercise a wide range of authority, though almost always delegated to the respective Governor Generals. This simply does not mean that those are colonies or devoid of sovereign statehood. Similarly, the Pope enjoys universal jurisdiction throughout the Catholic Church Communion or denominational family. But almost all of the day to day administration of the ECCs (including appointment of bishops, administrators, regular legislations, liturgical promulgations etc.) is undertaken by their patriarchs, who act in their own capacity as 'Head of the Church' and not as some kind of a delegate of the pope. Denomination is not determined by who controls authority (especially outside the Catholic Church denominational family), but by the liturgy, culture, doctrine, spirituality, history and self-identification. The SMC identifies itself as a denomination, state authorities recognise it as such and the authoritative academic sources who study the SMC in detail also classifies it as a denomination. I just do not need to disregard these most important sources in favour of some old, western oriented (the problem is not the fact that these are western, but the inherent confusion they have over the Roman Catholic/Latin denomination with entire Catholic Church denominational family) and non-academic tertiary sources. Logosx127 ( talk) 09:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination).Note that Roman Catholicism (meaning Catholicism obviously) is listed not as a denomination but as a tradition. Similarly Oriental Orthodoxy is listed as a tradition and Coptic Orthodox as a denomination within it.
It's been more than a week. Nobody else agrees. Unless you want this to go elsewhere for discussion, I think we can safely say this conversation has been exhausted. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 23:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination). Logosx127 ( talk) 00:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
denomination Catholic Church, sui juris church Syro-Malabarwere actually put by you yourself very recently as proven from [16] [17] [18] This proves its simply your personal, biased and isolated POV and original research. If you were honestly looking for the existing Wikipedia consensus, you should have considered List of Christian denominations, and Christian denomination for reference, were the Syro-Malabar Church has been already listed as a denomination. If you are looking outside for reliable sources, the tertiary sources are of much less value compared to academic secondary sources such as the Syriac World (2019), an extremely important reliable source used as the main source in multiple articles in Wikipedia, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is mentioned as a denomination. Thirdly, the SMC's own OFFICIAL WEBSITE too holds itself to he a denomination. This makes all your arguments as baseless as a house of cards, especially taking your own edits and masquerading those as result of consensus. If you genuinely want to change the existing Wikipedia consensus and list the Catholic Church as a denomination instead of Christian tradition/denominational family and the SMC as a non-denomination instead of the present status of denomination, you should first discuss on relevant articles and spaces elsewhere where you would get better visibility and make corresponding changes in the consensus. If you do so, you can potentially change this article in the similar fashion. But until then, the SMC will remain a denomination, no matter what your POV is. Logosx127 ( talk) 23:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Let's allow others to answer. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 13:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)