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Request for the inclusion of a link to the original latin text. (someone, please put this where it belongs -- I have no clue -- and then remove this notice)
Who asserted that? Newman, Hales, and others argue that no critical response to the Syllabus which ignored the original documents and their context could be valid, and they argued that some specific interpretations were wrong because they ignored specific circumstances of specific source documents - but that is not the same as what is asserted above. -- Jim Henry 21:06, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
An anonymous User:67.180.61.179 is erasing blocks of text as "edited" under the justification "to make it easier for a total newbie to read". The User bears close watching. -- Wetman 06:44, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error. " "We owe God, therefore, not only a private cult, but a public and social worship to honor Him" - St. Pius X.
How does the Syllabus of Errors seem to condemn freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and separation of church and state? Isn't that like saying that the Declaration of Independence seems to declare the United States to be a separate country from Great Britain? That is its point — that these ideas are wrong and anti-Christian. While the validity of this is disputed by many (including myself), aren't we being overly politically correct here by saying that this docuemnt only "seems" to do this? It does so, whether we of a more modern era like it or not. Rlquall 11:24, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but for NPOV reasons we have to say this because of those Catholics who are embarassed by the work and attempt to water down what it says. With all the changes that have occoured both in many of the textual outputs of the church, combined with the statments of the church hierarchy, combined with what the people of the church generally believe, to go into further detail about who exactly believes what would be much more onerous then simply using the word "seem".
(Still writing... just saving then editing...)
El Caudillo
10:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
An interpretation I read is you add something like "It is not correct" at the beginning of each. After all rejecting something doesn't mean accepting it's total opposite. For example I reject the statement "murderers should always be executed", but this doesn't mean I'm opposed to the death penalty. In fact I'm for the death for some murderers, but not for others. Case by case deal. So I could reject the statement "the Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church" and in a way I suppose I do. There are nations that have an established Church, like England and they seem to do okay. Although some Papal statements seem to go against this the Catholic Church still clearly believes Catholicism can be the state religion if that is what the state so desires. Vatican City is a Catholic theocracy. It has relations with many nations and therefore it is not separated from those states. The statement that the Church must be separated from the State, as in all states, is obviously not abrogated then. If it was the Vatican could not exist or have diplomatic relations with other nations.-- T. Anthony 12:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
“Declared to be heretical” is simply false, except for a few of the propositions: one has only to see Denzinger’s “Enchiridion symbolorum ...”, or to read the text of the “Syllabus” itself, to understand that. The intention of Pius IX was to damn all the propositions, but with very different “notae”, or forms of damnation.
Only one who hasn’t got the faintest idea of Catholic theology (and of Catholic canon law) can defend, as “more accurate”, the thesis that all the propositions were declared to be heretical by the pope. Please notice: I don’t blame anybody for ignoring things: I myself am very ignorant in thousands of fields! But I’m blaming people who, though they’re clearly ignorant in a certain field, nevertheless think they have the right to make dogmatic assertions, add, delete, write, comment, whatever...
This is the problem with “Wikipedia”: one may find useful information, but it’s generally unreliable, because just everybody – even I! – can write whatever he wants to write.
I think I should stop writing here: we should rather study.
I don't know who wrote the above, but I actually made the change described, and I have degrees in both Theology and Canon Law, and I teach in a faculty of ecclesiastical history. That doesn't automatically mean that what I say must be right, but an unsigned accusation that nobody but yourself has the "faintest idea of Catholic theology) is, ummm, unfounded, uncharitable, innaccurate, self-important and silly. You want to play semantic games? A proposition cannot be "damned," only a person can be, and then only by God -- damnatio means condemned in the technical sense, not damned in the usual English sense. Denziger's enchiridion is not a compilation of findings of heresy, it is a compilation of "symbols" in the technical sense of creeds, otherwise it would have to contain every decision of the CDF, or the old HO, to be complete.
I'm not a fan of the Syllabus, but there are a lot of theologians who historically took as the probabiliorist position that the Syllabus contained in and of itself an authentic Petrine teaching, and hence a declaration of doctrine, and hence an implicit declaration of heresy. Probabilists of the time held that the contents of the Syllabus relied only on the original source -- allocution, encyclical, etc. -- for the weight of their authenticity (hence Newman).
If your argument is that a better phrasing would be "condemned as erroneous," I'll buy that as a good technical clarification, but please, sign your comments and do not dismiss the rest of the world as ignoramuses when compared to yourself.
HarvardOxon
04:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It desperately needs some cleaning, as it is full of original research and speculation that doesn't belongs on Wikipedia. I thought I would make a comment here before wading into the text. Dominick (TALK) 12:49, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Request for the inclusion of a link to the original latin text. (someone, please put this where it belongs -- I have no clue -- and then remove this notice)
Who asserted that? Newman, Hales, and others argue that no critical response to the Syllabus which ignored the original documents and their context could be valid, and they argued that some specific interpretations were wrong because they ignored specific circumstances of specific source documents - but that is not the same as what is asserted above. -- Jim Henry 21:06, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
An anonymous User:67.180.61.179 is erasing blocks of text as "edited" under the justification "to make it easier for a total newbie to read". The User bears close watching. -- Wetman 06:44, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error. " "We owe God, therefore, not only a private cult, but a public and social worship to honor Him" - St. Pius X.
How does the Syllabus of Errors seem to condemn freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and separation of church and state? Isn't that like saying that the Declaration of Independence seems to declare the United States to be a separate country from Great Britain? That is its point — that these ideas are wrong and anti-Christian. While the validity of this is disputed by many (including myself), aren't we being overly politically correct here by saying that this docuemnt only "seems" to do this? It does so, whether we of a more modern era like it or not. Rlquall 11:24, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but for NPOV reasons we have to say this because of those Catholics who are embarassed by the work and attempt to water down what it says. With all the changes that have occoured both in many of the textual outputs of the church, combined with the statments of the church hierarchy, combined with what the people of the church generally believe, to go into further detail about who exactly believes what would be much more onerous then simply using the word "seem".
(Still writing... just saving then editing...)
El Caudillo
10:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
An interpretation I read is you add something like "It is not correct" at the beginning of each. After all rejecting something doesn't mean accepting it's total opposite. For example I reject the statement "murderers should always be executed", but this doesn't mean I'm opposed to the death penalty. In fact I'm for the death for some murderers, but not for others. Case by case deal. So I could reject the statement "the Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church" and in a way I suppose I do. There are nations that have an established Church, like England and they seem to do okay. Although some Papal statements seem to go against this the Catholic Church still clearly believes Catholicism can be the state religion if that is what the state so desires. Vatican City is a Catholic theocracy. It has relations with many nations and therefore it is not separated from those states. The statement that the Church must be separated from the State, as in all states, is obviously not abrogated then. If it was the Vatican could not exist or have diplomatic relations with other nations.-- T. Anthony 12:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
“Declared to be heretical” is simply false, except for a few of the propositions: one has only to see Denzinger’s “Enchiridion symbolorum ...”, or to read the text of the “Syllabus” itself, to understand that. The intention of Pius IX was to damn all the propositions, but with very different “notae”, or forms of damnation.
Only one who hasn’t got the faintest idea of Catholic theology (and of Catholic canon law) can defend, as “more accurate”, the thesis that all the propositions were declared to be heretical by the pope. Please notice: I don’t blame anybody for ignoring things: I myself am very ignorant in thousands of fields! But I’m blaming people who, though they’re clearly ignorant in a certain field, nevertheless think they have the right to make dogmatic assertions, add, delete, write, comment, whatever...
This is the problem with “Wikipedia”: one may find useful information, but it’s generally unreliable, because just everybody – even I! – can write whatever he wants to write.
I think I should stop writing here: we should rather study.
I don't know who wrote the above, but I actually made the change described, and I have degrees in both Theology and Canon Law, and I teach in a faculty of ecclesiastical history. That doesn't automatically mean that what I say must be right, but an unsigned accusation that nobody but yourself has the "faintest idea of Catholic theology) is, ummm, unfounded, uncharitable, innaccurate, self-important and silly. You want to play semantic games? A proposition cannot be "damned," only a person can be, and then only by God -- damnatio means condemned in the technical sense, not damned in the usual English sense. Denziger's enchiridion is not a compilation of findings of heresy, it is a compilation of "symbols" in the technical sense of creeds, otherwise it would have to contain every decision of the CDF, or the old HO, to be complete.
I'm not a fan of the Syllabus, but there are a lot of theologians who historically took as the probabiliorist position that the Syllabus contained in and of itself an authentic Petrine teaching, and hence a declaration of doctrine, and hence an implicit declaration of heresy. Probabilists of the time held that the contents of the Syllabus relied only on the original source -- allocution, encyclical, etc. -- for the weight of their authenticity (hence Newman).
If your argument is that a better phrasing would be "condemned as erroneous," I'll buy that as a good technical clarification, but please, sign your comments and do not dismiss the rest of the world as ignoramuses when compared to yourself.
HarvardOxon
04:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It desperately needs some cleaning, as it is full of original research and speculation that doesn't belongs on Wikipedia. I thought I would make a comment here before wading into the text. Dominick (TALK) 12:49, 13 September 2011 (UTC)