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"Svåger" and "Svägerska" derives back to Proto-Indo-European, http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/project/phonetics/word37.html, but is it established that the word is like derived from "one's own" In that case, what would the second part of the word mean? *kreu@? Raw flesh/(blood) So, being of "one's own flesh"? I am just speculating here... http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE242.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.112.113.82 ( talk) 23:10, 18 January 2005 (UTC)
Allan A. Lund had said as Suiones/Suiona was same word as Sverber/Suebor and perhaps as Suiona was Greek for Suebor.
Tacitus say both Suiona and Suebor was several tribes.
Haabet 17:13, 2005 May 7 (UTC)
Good afternoon. I feel delighted to be in the presence of such afficionados of ancient identity and obvious skilled linguists, who have been with me ever since I started on Wikipedia. I'm starting to take more of an interest in this quarter of the globe so rather than just jump in I thought I would start slow.
The sea people theory. Does anyone remember Mount Saevo in Pliny Book IV.96 that forms a bay called the Codanus ( Kattegat) and is next to the big island Scatinavia? Saevo is a nominative. In such cases the stem (here unattested) Saevon-. The plural would be saevones, which is pretty much most of *saiwi-oniz, is it not? So, it wouldn't be true that there are no other derived roots. One might suppose that the mountainous country around Oslo and Gotland got its name from the people and they in turn from the low country in which they at first resided, part of which is still called sealand. That being so, there seems less reason to tag this theory as less likely; that is, it seems less likely that this theory is less likely. English double negatives, you know.
But there are other considerations are there not? The Indo-europeans had no word for sea and Germanic *saiwi- is not an Indo-European word even though spoken by Indo-europeans. We don't see any other Sui- anywhere in the IE range. There is no justification at all for assuming it must be IE. Do you know of any?
On the other hand, "one's own kin" is pretty tempting and is Indo-European and has many parallels, such as the Roman use of Nostri to mean our men. I suppose you might even tie it in to a possible meaning of Goth as "goodman". My own thoughts were, there is a possibility that the IE entering the big island, which only recently actually was a big island ( Ancylus lake), started calling it an island because the natives did, and furthermore took on the name of the native tribe, which is what actually happened in Finland. One supposes that it might be related to such names as Sabme and Saami. There is no genetic or "legitimate" descent, of course, but when one people take over names from another, anything can happen by analogy. Thus Rejkjavik became rinky-dink 60 years ago. Anyway, we must have got sea from somewhere, true? If sea and sealand, why not sea people?
Some might think this reasonable and some not. It seems to me though it is weighty enough to merit equal consideration. Dave 18:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Can you say no/yes? And tell why/why not. Haabet 14:14, 2005 May 11 (UTC)
Because it is a list of words. Haabet 21:28, 2005 May 11 (UTC)
Haabet 10:45, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
Haabet,
dab (ᛏ) 11:10, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Where do Swedes hail from before they settled in Scandinavia? Some mentioned in and around the coast of Black Sea. Any ideas? -- Anittas 16:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
8 indents removed by User:Rursus in order to be able to read: Said: Rursus 08:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
In opposition to the above failed thumb-in-the-middle-of-the-hand discussion, I'll hereby defend both (my favourite author) Dick Harrison and the stand point that viking Svear is approximate the same people as Tacitus Suiones:
Said: Rursus 08:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggest changing the name of the article form Suiones to Svear as the latter is by far the more widely used term. Of course the article could contain a section on the connection between the Suiones and the Svear (and other related names/groups).
As for the role of the Svear in the consolidation of the medieval Swedish state, this 'controversy' could also be covered in a separate section (indeed there is a whole separate article on the topic - Consolidation of Sweden) KarlXII 15:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Karl XII. I have responded on the talkpages, but could just was well leave the message here, too. Swedes is the most common name used for the "svear" in English, and "Swedish-Geatish wars" is the standard term for these wars. Just try googling if you don't believe me. Swedes is also since a long time back the preferred translation of svear at Wikipedia:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board/Terminology. Don't equate Swedes with "svenskar". Swedes means both "svear" and "svenskar", just as svenskar did in the middle ages. For instance, in Västgötalagen a "svensk man" was NOT a Geat. Moreover, when Geats are discussed, "Swedes" is unambiguous and there is no risk for confusion.-- Berig 15:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, Hmm... I'm not convinced. Yes, the Wikipedia:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board/Terminology certainly does say that "Svear" is synonymous with "Swedes" in English and you say that I shouldn't equate Swedes with svenskar and that in English Swedes means both "svear" and "svenskar", just as svenskar did in the middle ages. I have two objections about equating Svear with Swedes:
If modern Swedish differentiates between "Swedes" and "Svear" (where Svear is a subset of Swedes) shouldn't English Wikipedia do the same? KarlXII 20:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, I'm not familiar with Beowoulf and don't know whether it really is the case that this is where most people become acquainted with the term "Svear". However, the use of Svear in Beowoulf shouldn't dictate how it should be used in modern English. My point remains, if modern Swedish refers to Svear as a subset of Swedes (do agree with this), shouldn't modern English do the same?
Here a text from Encyclopedia Britannica in Sweden: Settlement patterns:
What is the comment about nationalists referring to? KarlXII 20:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
It could also be worthwhile to read this in Encyclopedia Britannica online about Sweden's history during the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries. It refers to the Svear as separate from Sweden and Swedes. KarlXII 20:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm moving the discussion to the Svear page, as it would seem that is where it belongs. KarlXII 22:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, touché! Due to the translation of Beowoulf's "Sweon" to "Swedes" it does seem that swedes+geats gives the greater hit rate. However:
The Labor Law talk dictionary (have you heard of it before?) seems to have a pretty good definition of Svear vs Swedes. It says:
They then go on to use "svear" to denote the 'ancient' Swedes (eg in relation to "geats"). By contrast, Svear is only one of the six possible definitions of Swedes in their Swedes article. This seems a much more simple and straightforward way of dealing with Svear, Geats and Swedes than what you are proposing. KarlXII 22:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, quite obviously, English uses both "Svear" and "Swedes" to denote the Swedish "svear" (let's not involve Suiones). You are proposing, based on the use of "Swedes" in Beowoulf and a google test, that "Swedes" is the only translation of "svear" in English. This is simply not true.
I argue for the use of "Svear" in English based on:
Berig, my reason for bringing up this issue is to have clarity in the usage of Svear, Suiones, Swedes, Götar/Geats. Today in Wikipedia, and elsewhere, Swedes, Suiones and Svear are all used, in some cases with the same meaning and in other cases with quite different meanings.
So, if we are to decide to call the (swedish) "svear" "Swedes" in English, this should be applied consistently throughout Wikipedia, right? To begin with, "Swedes" should be redirected to "Suiones" instead of "Swedish people" and "Svear" purged from other texts on Wikipedia. KarlXII 10:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, I'm ok with using "Swedes" to represent (sv.) "svear" given the apparent dominance of that use in the English translation of Beowulf. Should it then be outlined in the
Swedes and
Suiones /
Svear articles what the differences are and during what ages they apply?
KarlXII 12:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
On the name section currently reads:
To my knowledge "Swedes" (swedish "Svenskar") came to include Geats sometime in the middle ages, which the text above says. However, I'm not aware of there being a return to "Swedes" (Swedish "Svenskar") exkluding Geats after the middle ages. Again, the issue is becoming confusing due to the mixing of "Swedes" and "Svear" in English (see Talk above) while it in Swedish language means two different things (Swedes includes both Geats and Svear, while Svear, does not). KarlXII 13:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Is it possible to make this clearer also in the article? KarlXII 14:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I do agree that something should / could be done to improve the clarity of the terms. For me:
So, I would prefer Svear but can accept Swedes... if some attempt is made to differentiate them from the Swedes which include both Svear and Geats. KarlXII
After reading through the talk page and looking through the net....
Although it would be preferable to call them Svear (and change the name of the article as well), I accept that English Wikipedia should use the term predominant in English. Since this article explicitly deals with the Svear Swedes it shouldn't be a problem calling them Swedes here. However, in other Wiki articles this might pose a problem. But that's not something for the editors of this article to worry about. At least not here. Cheers Osli73 21:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Berig did this revert with the edit summary that it had been an "unexplained removal". I would have thought that the removal was self-explanatory. The footnote that I cut is rather incomprehensible. Berig just puts it back in, I suspect without having read it. And "early sources" is just a peacock term. It is also false - the Norse sources are medieval texts, written half a millennium or so after the period that the article seems to be about. As usual, it is horribly difficult to change anything in an article where User:Wiglaf and User:Berig are the main contributors. / Pieter Kuiper ( talk) 08:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
If I understand the unsourced edit correctly, IP 85.226.76.211 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) has changed the etymology, assuming "swe-" to be cognate with "sea" (by means of a Nordic cognate to the latter, meaning "Lake"). I've never seen this etymology suggested anywhere; and the IP has made a number of other edits, which on the one hand shows that (s)he has some knowledge of Nordic languages, but on the other hand are unsourced and in some cases patently wrong (considering older name forms).
However, I've not reverted this; let's see whether there ever was any support for this etymology. JoergenB ( talk) 19:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is a TRAVESTY.
NO ANCIENT sources in any way conflate the Suiones with the Svears.. This article uses modern persons suggesting based on their own bias to equate Suiones with Svears in the most shaky and unproven, RECKLESS nonsense arguments.
This is nothing less than a attempt to try to MANUFACTURE a germanic history for the Svears, when no such history exists or was even passed down, but artificially attaching them to a distant tribe that has a name which phonetically is not even that close.
The fact that this bogus nonsense is allowing to be spread as factual, instead of total manufactured opinion not based on fact, is a huge discredit to the wikipedia concept. Thiss is fakery of the highest degree, passed as fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.122.212 ( talk) 20:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
http://sweden.se/society/history-of-sweden/ This is Sweden's government website and they know there own history. The language is German based not the people. Facts are Germany does not have a DNA project!. So how can you prove they have Germanic blood. And Swedish peoples DNA is most similar in ratios to other Central European countries like Czech Republic and Poland. Google, Jomsborg, Jomsborg Vikings, Skane slavic, Skane slavic pottery, slavic pagans, King Eric of Pomerania Does it hurt to do a little research?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.7.110 ( talk) 10:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I think "Gutar" was the people of the island, but they were not just Swedish some 700-800 years ago. The island was important to the Hanseatic League, Denmark, Lithuania, Poland as well. About early Swedish history we know that lots of Götaland and the Geets was re-written and lost. Especially the parts of Folkungaätten , The House of Folkunga 83.249.130.216 ( talk) 05:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
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A graph should have been displayed here but
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"Svåger" and "Svägerska" derives back to Proto-Indo-European, http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/project/phonetics/word37.html, but is it established that the word is like derived from "one's own" In that case, what would the second part of the word mean? *kreu@? Raw flesh/(blood) So, being of "one's own flesh"? I am just speculating here... http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE242.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.112.113.82 ( talk) 23:10, 18 January 2005 (UTC)
Allan A. Lund had said as Suiones/Suiona was same word as Sverber/Suebor and perhaps as Suiona was Greek for Suebor.
Tacitus say both Suiona and Suebor was several tribes.
Haabet 17:13, 2005 May 7 (UTC)
Good afternoon. I feel delighted to be in the presence of such afficionados of ancient identity and obvious skilled linguists, who have been with me ever since I started on Wikipedia. I'm starting to take more of an interest in this quarter of the globe so rather than just jump in I thought I would start slow.
The sea people theory. Does anyone remember Mount Saevo in Pliny Book IV.96 that forms a bay called the Codanus ( Kattegat) and is next to the big island Scatinavia? Saevo is a nominative. In such cases the stem (here unattested) Saevon-. The plural would be saevones, which is pretty much most of *saiwi-oniz, is it not? So, it wouldn't be true that there are no other derived roots. One might suppose that the mountainous country around Oslo and Gotland got its name from the people and they in turn from the low country in which they at first resided, part of which is still called sealand. That being so, there seems less reason to tag this theory as less likely; that is, it seems less likely that this theory is less likely. English double negatives, you know.
But there are other considerations are there not? The Indo-europeans had no word for sea and Germanic *saiwi- is not an Indo-European word even though spoken by Indo-europeans. We don't see any other Sui- anywhere in the IE range. There is no justification at all for assuming it must be IE. Do you know of any?
On the other hand, "one's own kin" is pretty tempting and is Indo-European and has many parallels, such as the Roman use of Nostri to mean our men. I suppose you might even tie it in to a possible meaning of Goth as "goodman". My own thoughts were, there is a possibility that the IE entering the big island, which only recently actually was a big island ( Ancylus lake), started calling it an island because the natives did, and furthermore took on the name of the native tribe, which is what actually happened in Finland. One supposes that it might be related to such names as Sabme and Saami. There is no genetic or "legitimate" descent, of course, but when one people take over names from another, anything can happen by analogy. Thus Rejkjavik became rinky-dink 60 years ago. Anyway, we must have got sea from somewhere, true? If sea and sealand, why not sea people?
Some might think this reasonable and some not. It seems to me though it is weighty enough to merit equal consideration. Dave 18:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Can you say no/yes? And tell why/why not. Haabet 14:14, 2005 May 11 (UTC)
Because it is a list of words. Haabet 21:28, 2005 May 11 (UTC)
Haabet 10:45, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
Haabet,
dab (ᛏ) 11:10, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Where do Swedes hail from before they settled in Scandinavia? Some mentioned in and around the coast of Black Sea. Any ideas? -- Anittas 16:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
8 indents removed by User:Rursus in order to be able to read: Said: Rursus 08:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
In opposition to the above failed thumb-in-the-middle-of-the-hand discussion, I'll hereby defend both (my favourite author) Dick Harrison and the stand point that viking Svear is approximate the same people as Tacitus Suiones:
Said: Rursus 08:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggest changing the name of the article form Suiones to Svear as the latter is by far the more widely used term. Of course the article could contain a section on the connection between the Suiones and the Svear (and other related names/groups).
As for the role of the Svear in the consolidation of the medieval Swedish state, this 'controversy' could also be covered in a separate section (indeed there is a whole separate article on the topic - Consolidation of Sweden) KarlXII 15:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Karl XII. I have responded on the talkpages, but could just was well leave the message here, too. Swedes is the most common name used for the "svear" in English, and "Swedish-Geatish wars" is the standard term for these wars. Just try googling if you don't believe me. Swedes is also since a long time back the preferred translation of svear at Wikipedia:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board/Terminology. Don't equate Swedes with "svenskar". Swedes means both "svear" and "svenskar", just as svenskar did in the middle ages. For instance, in Västgötalagen a "svensk man" was NOT a Geat. Moreover, when Geats are discussed, "Swedes" is unambiguous and there is no risk for confusion.-- Berig 15:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, Hmm... I'm not convinced. Yes, the Wikipedia:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board/Terminology certainly does say that "Svear" is synonymous with "Swedes" in English and you say that I shouldn't equate Swedes with svenskar and that in English Swedes means both "svear" and "svenskar", just as svenskar did in the middle ages. I have two objections about equating Svear with Swedes:
If modern Swedish differentiates between "Swedes" and "Svear" (where Svear is a subset of Swedes) shouldn't English Wikipedia do the same? KarlXII 20:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, I'm not familiar with Beowoulf and don't know whether it really is the case that this is where most people become acquainted with the term "Svear". However, the use of Svear in Beowoulf shouldn't dictate how it should be used in modern English. My point remains, if modern Swedish refers to Svear as a subset of Swedes (do agree with this), shouldn't modern English do the same?
Here a text from Encyclopedia Britannica in Sweden: Settlement patterns:
What is the comment about nationalists referring to? KarlXII 20:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
It could also be worthwhile to read this in Encyclopedia Britannica online about Sweden's history during the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries. It refers to the Svear as separate from Sweden and Swedes. KarlXII 20:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm moving the discussion to the Svear page, as it would seem that is where it belongs. KarlXII 22:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, touché! Due to the translation of Beowoulf's "Sweon" to "Swedes" it does seem that swedes+geats gives the greater hit rate. However:
The Labor Law talk dictionary (have you heard of it before?) seems to have a pretty good definition of Svear vs Swedes. It says:
They then go on to use "svear" to denote the 'ancient' Swedes (eg in relation to "geats"). By contrast, Svear is only one of the six possible definitions of Swedes in their Swedes article. This seems a much more simple and straightforward way of dealing with Svear, Geats and Swedes than what you are proposing. KarlXII 22:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, quite obviously, English uses both "Svear" and "Swedes" to denote the Swedish "svear" (let's not involve Suiones). You are proposing, based on the use of "Swedes" in Beowoulf and a google test, that "Swedes" is the only translation of "svear" in English. This is simply not true.
I argue for the use of "Svear" in English based on:
Berig, my reason for bringing up this issue is to have clarity in the usage of Svear, Suiones, Swedes, Götar/Geats. Today in Wikipedia, and elsewhere, Swedes, Suiones and Svear are all used, in some cases with the same meaning and in other cases with quite different meanings.
So, if we are to decide to call the (swedish) "svear" "Swedes" in English, this should be applied consistently throughout Wikipedia, right? To begin with, "Swedes" should be redirected to "Suiones" instead of "Swedish people" and "Svear" purged from other texts on Wikipedia. KarlXII 10:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Berig, I'm ok with using "Swedes" to represent (sv.) "svear" given the apparent dominance of that use in the English translation of Beowulf. Should it then be outlined in the
Swedes and
Suiones /
Svear articles what the differences are and during what ages they apply?
KarlXII 12:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
On the name section currently reads:
To my knowledge "Swedes" (swedish "Svenskar") came to include Geats sometime in the middle ages, which the text above says. However, I'm not aware of there being a return to "Swedes" (Swedish "Svenskar") exkluding Geats after the middle ages. Again, the issue is becoming confusing due to the mixing of "Swedes" and "Svear" in English (see Talk above) while it in Swedish language means two different things (Swedes includes both Geats and Svear, while Svear, does not). KarlXII 13:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Is it possible to make this clearer also in the article? KarlXII 14:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I do agree that something should / could be done to improve the clarity of the terms. For me:
So, I would prefer Svear but can accept Swedes... if some attempt is made to differentiate them from the Swedes which include both Svear and Geats. KarlXII
After reading through the talk page and looking through the net....
Although it would be preferable to call them Svear (and change the name of the article as well), I accept that English Wikipedia should use the term predominant in English. Since this article explicitly deals with the Svear Swedes it shouldn't be a problem calling them Swedes here. However, in other Wiki articles this might pose a problem. But that's not something for the editors of this article to worry about. At least not here. Cheers Osli73 21:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Berig did this revert with the edit summary that it had been an "unexplained removal". I would have thought that the removal was self-explanatory. The footnote that I cut is rather incomprehensible. Berig just puts it back in, I suspect without having read it. And "early sources" is just a peacock term. It is also false - the Norse sources are medieval texts, written half a millennium or so after the period that the article seems to be about. As usual, it is horribly difficult to change anything in an article where User:Wiglaf and User:Berig are the main contributors. / Pieter Kuiper ( talk) 08:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
If I understand the unsourced edit correctly, IP 85.226.76.211 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) has changed the etymology, assuming "swe-" to be cognate with "sea" (by means of a Nordic cognate to the latter, meaning "Lake"). I've never seen this etymology suggested anywhere; and the IP has made a number of other edits, which on the one hand shows that (s)he has some knowledge of Nordic languages, but on the other hand are unsourced and in some cases patently wrong (considering older name forms).
However, I've not reverted this; let's see whether there ever was any support for this etymology. JoergenB ( talk) 19:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is a TRAVESTY.
NO ANCIENT sources in any way conflate the Suiones with the Svears.. This article uses modern persons suggesting based on their own bias to equate Suiones with Svears in the most shaky and unproven, RECKLESS nonsense arguments.
This is nothing less than a attempt to try to MANUFACTURE a germanic history for the Svears, when no such history exists or was even passed down, but artificially attaching them to a distant tribe that has a name which phonetically is not even that close.
The fact that this bogus nonsense is allowing to be spread as factual, instead of total manufactured opinion not based on fact, is a huge discredit to the wikipedia concept. Thiss is fakery of the highest degree, passed as fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.122.212 ( talk) 20:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
http://sweden.se/society/history-of-sweden/ This is Sweden's government website and they know there own history. The language is German based not the people. Facts are Germany does not have a DNA project!. So how can you prove they have Germanic blood. And Swedish peoples DNA is most similar in ratios to other Central European countries like Czech Republic and Poland. Google, Jomsborg, Jomsborg Vikings, Skane slavic, Skane slavic pottery, slavic pagans, King Eric of Pomerania Does it hurt to do a little research?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.7.110 ( talk) 10:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I think "Gutar" was the people of the island, but they were not just Swedish some 700-800 years ago. The island was important to the Hanseatic League, Denmark, Lithuania, Poland as well. About early Swedish history we know that lots of Götaland and the Geets was re-written and lost. Especially the parts of Folkungaätten , The House of Folkunga 83.249.130.216 ( talk) 05:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)