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The text written for the Gunatit Samaj seems to be highly biased, vindictive, antagonistic. It does not conform to the standard of 'information' which needs to be displayed on a site such as Wikipedia. The text is pure 'hearsay' and lacks concrete & supporing evidence for the claims made, thus the text should be edited and changed to the following:
The Gunatit Samaj was established in 1996 under the instruction and inspiration received by the BAPS Guru at the time Yogiji Maharaj. The Gunatit Samaj was formed by two brothers, Dadubhai (Kakaji) & Babubhai (Pappaji) who were excommunicated from BAPS due to the nature of the work they were tasked to do.
Yogiji Maharaj expressed a wish in accordance to the Vachanamrut Last Section of Gadhada No. 26 for women to also dedicate their lives to the service of God (like their male counterparts as Sadhus) & achieve a state of transcendence. This wish had been conveyed to Pappaji and Kakaji in 1952 after a question was posed by Pappaji to Yogiji Maharaj regarding the daughters of Sonaba (A founder of the Gunatit Samaj) who wanted to lead a life dedicated to God.
Yogiji Maharaj had given his blessings regarding what path the two sisters should take and had answered "What is wrong if these sisters want to devote their lives to God? God will ensure that this will happen, and further more you are to undertake this task.”. [1]
Thereafter, a separate establishment was established in Vallabh Vidyanagar by Pappaji, his brother; Kakaji and Sonaba whose daughters were the first two to join the establishment ordained in the saffron-clad, they were then followed by two others and a total of 51 women had joined the establishment in 1966. Heavy opposition was received from members of the BAPS sect and as a result, Pappaji and Kakaji were excommunicated from BAPS by trustee members. [2] [3]: 72 [4] [5]
Many were also in support of the establishment for the uplifment of women leading their lives as ascetics and thus 40 Sadhus initiated by Yogiji Maharaj who expressed support of Kakaji and Pappaji had also left. The youth in the Akshar-Purushottam Hostel (Chhatralay) in Vallabh Vidyanagar had also been asked to vacate due to showing support and taking the words of the two brothers as the commands of Yogiji Maharaj. Despite efforts between Kakaji, Pappaji and senior saints at BAPS a firm resolution couldn't be met.
The Samaj (Community) constitutes of four factions (the ordained saints, ordained sisters, ordained brothers, and ordained householders). Each faction is respectively led under a spiritual head (who is believed to be the present manifestation of Swaminarayan). The Gunatit Samaj now spans worldwide with centres in the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, Australia, France and many other countries. [3]: 72–73, 127 [4]
References
Williams2018
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help page).{{
cite conference}}
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GunatitSamaj1966 ( talk) 00:05, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
I have thoroughly reviewed all the edits in the Major Branches section and I have given my rationales for the further edits I have done. I hope you all take the time to understand each point and why the edit was made.
[Explanations per subsection moved to subthreads, to keep a readable overview. JJ 26 sept. 2020]
I hope you all take the time to understand and read through the rationale of all the edits I have made. Kevpopz I had mentioned that my thorough study of the available Swaminarayan scholarship has helped in formulating an NPOV article in hopes for a clear and thorough explanation of what the Swaminarayan Sampradaya is. Wikipedia is not a platform to debate which doctrine is correct vs incorrect. The edits I have made are driven by correcting the policy violations I have observed, improving the lack of readability, and extracting important information from reliable academic sources. If there are any edits in question, I’d like to request all users to engage on the talk page and propose alternatives instead of simply reverting or beginning an edit war. Thank you. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph is more focused on the Vadtal and Ahmedabad dioceses without giving context to the other branches of this tradition. WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV I’ve modified the content while still ensuring the crux of the information remains. The new edit summarizes why and how the two dioceses were created. As this is an introductory paragraph to the entire section, it should not solely be focused on Vadtal or Ahmedabad. I’ve added a little more context to also discuss Swaminarayan Gadi as well. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Swaminarayan gave the acharyas of Ahmedabad and Vadtal gadi's the exclusive right to build and control temples,[5]:170 and the authority to perform the ritual of installation of the sacred images in the temples built in their dioceses and the ritual for the rededication of the images after the renovation of a temple.[1]:38[127] BAPS believes that authority is dictated by spiritual virtues rather than a hereditary lineage.[1]:59–60 According to the BAPS, important rituals of the sampradaya, such as the ordaining of swamis, and the installation of sacred images in the mandirs can be performed by the guru, being the rightfull successor of Swaminarayan.[1]:59–60
::See JJ's response [below] above. The acharays are not just administrators. That is a BAPS narrative. They have religious duties explicitly outlined.
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
He appointed his two nephews, Ayodhyaprasad and Raghuvir, to administer his temple properties. This action later started a hereditary line of succession.
... the regulation of succession by inheritance within the family which Sahajananda instituted (according to 4,24:12): 'For the sake of the thriving of the way of devotion, initiation by means of the sacred formula is required; therefor I shall establish the office of sacred teacher among the pure descendants of Dharma.'
He then installed them as acharyas (or preceptors) to head the movement [...] the acharyas, while primarily temporal leaders, had been assigned several essential spiritual functions, most notably the final act of installation of deity statues in a new temple and the reinstallation of the deities in older temples following major renovation. The acharyas also initiated candidates into the ascetic life as sadhus.
Sahajanand Swami established n institutional structure that provided for the perpetuation of the swaminarayan satsang, the community of followers-in-truth.
In order to lessen undue weight to each branch and leaders, I’ve reduced the text yet maintained the information to ensure readers understands the who, when, why. There was redundancy in mentioning who was the appointed acharya by Swaminarayan for each diocese, my edit is more concise and is clear. Also, the sentence ‘At certain points in the Lekh…’ is copy-paste from Hatcher. Within the Major branches section this is another incident of copyright infringement, I believe this is the 3rd instance of copyright violation! I have placed a warning regarding this copyright. WP:COPYVIO There is an overemphasis on the Lekh and it is given undue weight. There was a reference to Vachanamrut Vadtal 18, however in this Vachanamrut, Swaminarayan only states that one should understand Ramanand’s guru to be Ramanuj and Swaminarayan as Ramanand’s disciple. Also the reference to Dharmakul is to Swaminarayan himself and the family of his father. It appears Swaminarayan is emphasizing one to understand the guru lineage but I did not see anything regarding moksha. I also did not see any reference of moksha and acharya in Gadhada 1-1.8 (I checked Gadhada 1.1 and 1.8, I was not sure which specific Vachanamrut you were referencing). Finally, including a note on the 1935 lawsuit, which is also placed in the BAPS section, is completely irrelevant to the statement it is placed after. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
There was a reference to Vachanamrut Vadtal 18, however in this Vachanamrut, Swaminarayan only states that one should understand Ramanand’s guru to be Ramanuj and Swaminarayan as Ramanand’s disciple. 'I also did not see any reference of moksha and acharya in Gadhada 1-1.8 (I checked Gadhada 1.1 and 1.8, I was not sure which specific Vachanamrut you were referencing).
Also the reference to Dharmakul is to Swaminarayan himself and the family of his father. It appears Swaminarayan is emphasizing one to understand the guru lineage but I did not see anything regarding moksha.
:You are entitled to your interpretation of Dharmakul but family of his father would include his two other sons who the acharayas came from. Also the BAPS worships the dharmakul at their sarangpur temple which includes the who whole fam.
https://www.baps.org/Global-Network/India/Sarangpur/Mandir-Info.aspx
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The sentence ‘A lawsuit in 1935...’ in the BAPS section misrepresents the cited sources WP:SYNTH. The fact is that there was a lawsuit (Melton 2020, pg95) however Williams also states that the judge determined that Yagnapurushdas had not been legally excommunicated from the Vadtal diocese (Williams 2018, page 63-66) with the final decision that the BAPS swamis could not stay or visit those temples. The scholarship does not indicate that the BAPS swamis were attempting to operate out of the Vadtal or Ahmedabad diocese upon separating. I’ve removed the sentence ‘regarding Gunatitand Swami, the guru of his own guru…’, the sources cited here state nothing of Bhagatji Maharaj being the guru of Shastriji Maharaj. The idea that the lineage begins from Gunatitanand Swami is stated in the second paragraph to better capture the historical and theological context just as it has been done in the Swaminarayan Gadi section. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
::[@Apollo1203] Then what do you suggest we put to let readers know that BAPS is in fact a legally separate institution from the Original Sampraday?
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The name used for the group in the scholarship is Swaminarayan Gadi therefore I have changed it back to that. The introductory sentences were poorly structured. The new sentence clearly states why, when, and who regarding the establishment of the Swaminarayan Gadi. In order to maintain neutrality and not give undue weight, the biographical description of Abji Bapa has been removed WP:UNDUE. The section is for a brief description of the branches not the biography of key members of the group. If the details of Abji Bapa and the history of Swaminarayan Gadi is notable, a new article should be created and a reader can navigate to that article for more details. Additionally, Penguin Books does not appear to be an academic publishing house and is a questionable source. WP:SOURCETYPES. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
:Jewels of Gujarat, Volume II: Leading Global Gujarati Personalities. (2019). India: Maneesh Media and
https://www.indiatimes.com/trending/social-relevance/swaminarayan-gives-prasad-using-mouth-tests-covid-19-positive-517760.html states the proper name.
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Within Gunatit Samaj, the last sentence (“Although small in followers in comparison to the Vadtal…”) is a clear copyright violation. It is plagiarized word for word from Williams (2018) page 73. This is the 4th instance where Kevpopz has plagiarised. WP:PLAGARISM, WP:COPYVIO. I have placed a final warning on your page regarding this violation. I don’t think there is encyclopedic value for this article in added information on what members of Gunatit Samaj wear. I have removed that as it is not adding significant value to the article. WP:EXCESSDETAIL. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
:I get a little confused. Even if I am quoted and cited it's a copyright issue? The reason why what the Gunatit Samaj (Anoopam Mission) wears matters because their guru, Yogi instructed them to do so and is an identifying feature and the first Swaminarayan group to have sadhu's that can work jobs but still are sadhus. It is notable.
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Yet again, I noticed copy-pasted material from the sources used in the Swaminarayan Gurukul section. Simply changing one word does not free the sentence from copyright violation. I’ve re-worded the section attempting to use the same sources you had cited. Regarding the number of gurukuls, Williams 2018 states a number of gurukuls whereas the cited news article from 2017 claims 150 centers in the sampradaya. As Williams 2018 is an academic and reliable source (which everyone agrees to), I’ve removed the 150 gurukuls sentence and kept the numbers from Williams. Overall, I don’t entirely agree with keeping the Swaminarayan Gurukul section as it is not a prominent sect discussed in Swaminarayan scholarship like the major branches listed currently. However, in an effort to assume good faith I will not completely delete it or revert it. It appears that the group is still associated with the Ahmedabad and/or Vadtal diocese since they have not formally separated so it may make sense to move it within the Ahmedabad/Vadtal paragraph or even put this text in the Laxminarayan Dev Gadi Wikipedia page. Let’s see what the other editors think. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
:This is fine. Let’s see what the other editors think.
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
I understand your frustration that you have to repeat yourself and your points Joshua Jonathan as editors have repeatedly discussed the reliability of scholars' works irrespective of their affiliation/religion/etc. You note that Iva Patel incorrectly presents Gunatitanand Swami’s spiritual successorship as a historical fact. The Iva Patel article is published in an academic encyclopedia. Encyclopedias serve to summarize the scholarly work. As such what Iva Patel is presenting is scholarly consensus on the matter. The volume in which the article is published is part of Springer’s Encyclopedia of Indian Religions book series [1]. By questioning the accuracy of Iva Patel, Joshua Jonathan questions the integrity of Springer publishing. If you truly feel this publisher is biased and unreliable I invite you to open an rfc at the reliable sources noticeboard for the deprecation of Springer publishing. Furthermore the Bhatt and Pandya quotes cited do not state they are representing the BAPS POV. Unless of course you come to that conclusion through your interpretation and WP:SYNTHESIS. Please tell me you did not conclude that Bhatt is representing the BAPS POV simply because he cites Paramtattvadas. Pandya mentions “Swaminarayan Sanstha” not BAPS. A quick google search of the term revealed that sanstha translates to “the organization” as per the definition provided by Oxford Languages [2]. Perhaps the term organization here refers to the sampradaya as a whole or maybe specific branches. As you are no doubt aware, a few branches in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya other than BAPS also have the term sanstha in their name. I have googled the authors whose works have been questioned, namely, Iva Patel, Kalpesh Bhatt, Sadhu Paramtattvadas, and Samta Pandya. Based on their University and social media profiles their religious affiliations are unclear, however, they all appear to be of Indian origin, which Skubydoo has pointed out in the post they made using WP:BIAS. I read WP:BIAS, and understood Skubydoo's point. However, Joshua Jonathan, your response to this was to note that such an observation could result in getting Skubydoo blocked. I am curious as to what wikipedia policy and what rationale you have to tell Skubydoo not to make such an observation or risk getting blocked, and I would appreciate it if Joshua Jonathan can shed some more light on this point of his. Tale.Spin ( talk) 22:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Joshua Jonathan has made some bizarre attempts to discredit I Patel and Paramtattvadas which is absurd to me since the works in question are published by Springer and Cambridge University respectively. You really can’t get more reliable and credible than that. I think the attempts to discredit specifically non-European scholars is part of Wikipedia’s systemic bias WP:BIAS. This practice of trying to assume a biased perspective of Indian writers (instead of creating the intellectual space to recognize scholarship from brown writers as valid, acceptable, and meaningful) and privileging European writers (as if they have no perspective at all and are inherently neutral, untainted, and superior) is extremely problematic. I was reading up on this systemic racial bias here: /info/en/?search=Racial_bias_on_Wikipedia.
Unless the sources are deprecated (WP:DEPS,) it is accepted on Wikipedia. Obviously, none of the sources I mentioned can be deprecated because they are published from the most reliable sources in the academic world. It’s so disappointing to see the racial bias on this talk page against some sources-- especially in an article for a figure in Hindu history known as a social reformer.
I think that this makes amply clear that I. Patel stands out as a rare voice here in the way she brings a BAPS-belief as a statement of fact; she reads like a simplified paraphrasis of sadhu Paramtattvadas. Solely citing I. Patel does not suffice; especially not when it is stated with more nuance by Paramtattvadas, and not backed-up by Williams and Kim, who have dedicated decades of research to the Swaminarayan movemement.
He introduced Gunatitanand Swami as his eternal, ideal devotee, from whom his followers should seek spiritual guidance. This started a lineage of gurus.
According to the BAPS, Swaminarayan identified Gunatitanand Swami as "his eternal, ideal devotee, from whom his followers should seek spiritual guidance," and designated him to be his spiritual successor. Consequently, according to the BAPS, a lineage of gurus was established in succession to Gunatitanand Swami. (Willimas; Melton; Kim; Paramtattvadas; I. Patel; Packert)
several branches believe that Swaminarayan remains incarnate through a lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus. Some branches believe this lineage to begin with Gunatitanand Swami.
According to a number of traditions, Swaminarayan introduced a spiritual lineage of gurus through which he keeps manifesting himself. BAPS adherents believe Swaminarayan introduced Gunatitanand Swami as his ideal devotee from which a spiritual lineage of gurus began reflecting the principle that a form of God who lives “before one’s eyes” is necessary for aspirants to attain moksha (liberation).
this is not what the current literature can do. None of the sources that have been discussed thus far are historical in nature. They are anthropological, comparative, and theological. Attempting to determine what actually happened, may not be possible with these sources, other than the general context provided by each source. For example, Melton has said: “Anticipating changes of the nature of the ascetic life, which would become widespread during the Hindu Renaissance, Swaminarayan informed the renunciates that their vows did not place them above manual labor and active service to the community.” (Melton, 92) I know that no one is going to add to the article that Swaminarayan anticipated how widespread renunciants would be in what Melton calls the Hindu Renaissance. So, we must understand each source within the context of the field in which they are published and the type of publication-- this does make things more complicated, but also may make things make more sense, as well.there are historical connections, which situate Swaminayaran in a historical and religious context, and deserve, nay need, to be mentioned to get a better understanding….
In the early years of the movement, Swaminarayan operated as a charismatic leader with an assumed divine status, and made all the major decisions relative to belief and practice, policies, and administration. While Swaminarayan lived, he appointed the sadhus (the monks who had taken renunciate vows) to head the various temples, and further, also named the lay temple administrators who, unlike the sadhus, could handle money and interact with female members. The gradual separation of spiritual and temporal authority in the group led to the most important decisions relative to the succession of authority at the time of Swaminarayan’s death. (Melton, 92-92)
That is not true. The Swaminarayan Gadi does a acknowledge the the Laxminaryan and Narnarayan Gadi’s claim that Swaminarayan appointed his nephews as acharyas. It is not a claim but it is written in every single scripture. The Gadi simply acknowledges that Gopalanand Swami was given authority per several scriptures and interpret he created an authority line that the Gadi followed per their guru. Please see here: https://www.swaminarayangadi.com/page.php?id=1224 Gottiyu ( talk) 19:58, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
I think that the Swamini Vato should be placed after the sacred biographies: first Swaminarayan, the common denominator, than branche-specific texts. The article should also clearly state which branches regard Gunatitanand as 'the first spiritual successor' (a formulation which needs correction, in the line of 'the first manifestation of Swaminarayan in a spiritual lineage of Aksar-gurus', paraphrasing out of my head Apollo120e's formulation), and which branches regard this text to be authoritative. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:49, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan:: I removed the 'when' tags from the 'Early monasticism' section. These tags are for “use when a lack of precision prevents you from understanding the material.” Within the context of the this section, it's clear the events for first tag occurred in the 1800s-1820s. For the second tag, the reference offers a specific date, June 30, 1807, and I feel it's irrelevant here. I hope that makes sense. Moksha88 ( talk) 23:17, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
This was a point raised over 2 months ago and kind of fell of everyone's radar. The initial discussion and break down is on my sandbox: /info/en/?search=User:Kbhatt22/sandbox. There are 9 images in the body of this article of which 8 originate from Baps. That's a solid 88%. The intent is to diversify the images to have some representation for the other branches instead of the images representing/promoting one branch. Try to be branch agnostic where we can, the best way for this is to try to pick images of things originally done by Swaminarayan himself. I looked through all the discussions and these were the only proposed revisions with actual images. Any one have any input or objection to the diversification? @ Joshua Jonathan: wouldn't mind some fresh input as well if possible.
Proposed Aarti Image Update (Not sure which one is better. Thoughts?):
Proposed Murti Image Update:
We could also replace the sketch image of the first swaminarayan temple with an actual image from the wiki catalog: /info/en/?search=Swaminarayan_Temple,_Ahmedabad#/media/File:Shree_Swaminarayan_Sampraday,_Ahmedabad.jpg
Thanks everyone. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 13:02, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Harshmellow717 for breaking this down. I think the proposed changes are good. Should we outline some of the details of the vadtal acharya dispute. From my understanding the case is still pending. So their isn't an active order that removes him but restrains him from performing as such. I am reading page 51 in Williams book which says that followers in some regions view Ajendra prasad and some view rakeshprasad. What if we updated the text for that to say something to the effect of - "The vadtal acharya position is currently in legal dispute with some viewing Ajendraprasad as Acharya and some viewing Rakeshprasad as Acharya." This would embody an ongoing dispute. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 10:45, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
:::I think this is good to go and should be added in the article.
Kevpopz (
talk) 14:57, 23 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:18, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi Apollo1203. Hope all is well. I added in some clarification to one of the edits you did yesterday as this was being discussed for a while here. I figure I would let you know here and hope it is not a contentious point as it is sourced and relatively basic. I didn't want to add this as a footnote on your new section at the bottom of the talk page as I didn't want to add more talking points there. There are a lot of points you brought up and there are already enough users talking in that section so felt it won't benefit from me being another user in the conversation so I'll drop this note here. Thanks! Kbhatt22 ( talk) 14:26, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
page
Hi
Kbhatt22 (
talk ·
contribs), both Melton (2020) and Williams (2018) make it clear that Rakeshparasad is acharya and that Ajendraprasad refutes the courts judgement, they also make no mention of the Dev paksh and Siddhant paksh groups and their respective affiliations. The current edit seems to be mainly based off of an outdated news article published in 2015. (see
WP:AGEMATTERS,
WP:NOTNEWS).
The current article states:
The current acharya of the Nar Narayan Dev Gadi is Koshalendraprasad Pande. There is currently an active case regarding the Vadtal Gadi centered around a factional dispute between Dev paksh, the faction led by Rakeshprasad Pande, and Siddhant paksh, which is led by Ajendraprasad Pande.[88] Gujarat high court has stayed the Nadiad court order removing Ajendraprasad until a final verdict is reached. He is restrained from enjoying the rights of acharya during the proceedings.[89] Dev paksh, governing the Vadtal temple trust, has appointed Rakeshprasad to act and officiate as acharya..[90][1]:51 Siddhant paksh believes Ajendraprasad is the current acharya and welcome his son, Nrigendraprasad, to officiate at functions in Swaminarayan temples in his absence.[12]
Instead, a better formulation based on the academic sources is:
The current acharya of the Nar Narayan Dev Gadi is Koshalendraprasad Pande. The current acharya of the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi is Rakeshprasad Pande, who replaced Ajendraprasad Pande based on rulings of the Indian Supreme Court. Ajendraprasad and his son, Nrigendraprasad, continue to challenge the judgment of the courts with the support of a small minority of the Laxminarayan Dev Gadi (TOI news article); (Melton 2020, pg. 97-98, 102); (Williams 2018, pg. 51).
As per WP:RS, “When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources.” We should give preference to Williams (2018) and Melton (2020) over the outdated Times of India, DNA India, and Deshgujarat news articles. Harshmellow717 ( talk) 02:49, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
page
Kevpopz ( talk · contribs) I appreciate your proactive spirit in editing the article images, however, as you can see a few users discussed edits to images in detail prior to making edits. In the spirit of collaborative editing, I have removed the images you added. Please feel free to suggest image updates in your sandbox. Below are my comments on the images you had added:
Thanks Harshmellow717 ( talk) 23:09, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
I looked at and it I didn't make any picture count changes to the Original Sampraday vs the others so I don't think it needs to be discussed further. I made comments above.
Kevpopz (
talk) 20:22, 21 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
The last thing ANYBODY wants is for me to talk more about images haha. As previously mentioned, we have discussed images over the last few months now and worked to get things much more balanced. The only outstanding items were Harshmellow and I were having a respectful conversation about the vadtal situation. We agreed with each other and were working out wording. The only other outstanding item was the other users volunteered to reach out to gather images for Maninagar and Gunatit samaj. Sometimes the places with the images never respond or take weeks or months and there is nothing we can do about it and just have to wait. The rest of the images have been discussed through. The only additional observation I want to put out there about the images in the last few edits is the stamp image was removed because of copyright but also because Dadubhai isn't the current leader of that branch(which is the trend we were going for) and we were trying to find an image of Hariprasad to use but one with permission wasn't available. So a couple reasons why that stamp image had to be removed.
Kbhatt22 (
talk)
23:38, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
@
Kbhatt22, so the Ramananand Swami photo is fine under a better pic that can be found. I replaced the Shikshapatri with a cleaner pic and chose a clearer picture for the Ahmedbad temple. The picture remaining in question is the paramhansas, the acharayas and and swaminarayam. It shows each form of authority partipant. I can't even imagine how that is considered non neutral when the other photo completely leaves out the acharayas.
Kevpopz (
talk) 00:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
@
talk Thanks for the updates. Regardless of each branch having different beliefs, we can't have one side push the narrative. When Swaminarayan was alive, he was the leader and he had the paramhansas (Senior Disciples) and the acharayas. A picture that only shows the leader and the paramhansas is clearly one sides. I just checked and this is a BAPS owned photo which is obviously going to leave out the acharayas. The photo currently has all three represented so there is no reason for people to get upset unless they unaware of the blatant violation of neutrality.
Kevpopz (
talk) 01:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::Okay but why revert something that isn't currently being disputed. After the edit has been made, it can be discussed or am I wrong? It's not a controversial edit. So what is the issue with the picture of Swaminarayan, Senior Paramhansas, & Acharayas together vs the BAPS image of just Swaminarayan and Senior Paramhansas?
Kevpopz (
talk) 03:35, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::: I just realized that the picture that is being currently used and disputed is already used in the Vachnamrut cover. The sect pushing agenda on here is insane. Why would we have the same picture twice? No one has addressed this in a few days so if there is a problem, then discuss the new edit here with out reverting.
Kevpopz (
talk) 14:19, 23 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::::::::
User:Actionjackson09 Two points and I think you missed both of them. First, the picture is already used in the article. It is repetitive and doesn't need to be used twice. It is on the cover of the BAPS vachnamrut and is very visible. Next the picture itself is a BAPS photo that shows Gunatitanad Swami sitting the closest to Swaminarayan when in face Guntatitanad is not mentioned in the vachnamrut nor an author and BAPS entire interpretation is based on Akshar being him so there is POVPUSHING. Per the scriptures during Swaminarayan's time, the acharyas were made the successors and Gopalanand Swami was charged with looking after the temples of of Vadtal and Ahmedabad and all of the ascetics in the sampradaya. Please do not leave messages on my talk page without merit and do not only selectively make points and ignore the straightforward points that this picture is used twice so you are getting your way regardless and the image is placed in an area that completely ignores the context of text that he explicitly designated leadership. There is sect pushing going on. Should we get an administrator to resolve this because it is becoming apparent which users will side where? Why don't you finding shocking that 3 of the authors I uncovered on here are BAPS members and push a BAPS POV in their publishing's? You are very contradictory and selective what you are outraged at...
Kevpopz (
talk) 02:45, 24 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
So to throw in my 2 cents. Its a valid point that the current image was on the page twice. I uploaded the image into google and the closest thing I could find for a source (the original upload doesn't say where it came from) was this: https://www.swaminarayangadi.com/publications/video.php?pid=68. High res versions are on other sites as well but this seems to be the origin. So to put it in simple terms, both images in question originate from a book cover from a specific branch. The one used was from a Baps book cover, which is already on the page. The one proposed appears to come from a Maninagar Gadi book cover. Maninagar Gadi currently doesn't have a single image on the page or any image representation. Baps has 3 branch specific images and all 4 branch agnostic images originate from Baps as well. I think this is a good opportunity for us to give Maninagar gadi some image representation on the page. Now we could resolve this and the ramanand swami image concerns with something like this: https://www.swaminarayan.faith/media/2164/ramanand-swami-meets-shri-hari.jpg because it seems more neutral then both the current images being discussed....but I have reached out to that site before for a separate image months ago and never got a response. All in all, it is a valid point that the image is on the page twice and the proposed change gives a branch with 0 image representation at least 1 image. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 11:41, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
@
Kbhatt22, I concur. Not only is the image used twice, out of context, that is an overrepresentation of BAPS and ZERO of Maninagar. Based on this information, I am reverting the edit.
Kevpopz (
talk) 18:24, 24 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
== Membership ==
How can we incorporate how to join the Swaminarayan Sampraday into this article?
A member of the Swaminarayan Sampraday is known as a "Satsangi." Male satsangis are initiated by the acharya of the gadi or diocese he comes under. Female satsangis are initiated by the wife of the acharya, who is the leader of women in the Swaminarayan Sampraday.
We can quote from the Shikshapatri
Verse
Verse 128: I have enthroned the two Acharyas as spiritual leaders of my disciples, with a view to protect dharma. They shall initiate those male aspirants who are desirous of salvation.
Verse 133: The wives of these Acharyas, with the permission of their husbands, shall initiate, preach, and give the Mantra Diksha of Lord Shree Krishna to females only.
Source
Kevpopz (
talk) 08:30, 17 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::Sounds like a great addition. Let's go ahead and add it.
Kevpopz (
talk) 07:44, 18 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::Would you move the text? I will adjust the images.
Kevpopz (
talk) 12:37, 18 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks @
Kbhatt22. If you have time would you help me at my sandbox. I am looking for fresh citation and organization. I noticed this article is completely devoid of any information on the acharayas and sadhus during the sampradays foundation. I went back and found that a lot of stuff has been removed and now most of the article is slanted towards convincing readers of a darshan made up from a splinter group. I see another user said there is devotee ownership here and based on how the article reads, it feels so true.
Kevpopz (
talk) 18:17, 19 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::Doesn't the Shikshapatri apply to all sects?
Kevpopz (
talk) 05:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Joshua Jonathan to your question: I was not referring to the eleven basic rules you mentioned, but that some of the other text in the way the “Membership” section was worded was skewed towards the beliefs of only two of the branches. For example, the first sentence stated ‘Swaminarayan states in the Shikshapatri that male satsangis are initiated by the acharya he comes under.’ This is only applicable to Vadtal and Ahmedabad Diocese and could be seen as a WP:POVPUSH. The term ‘Gadiwala’ is specific to Ahmedabad and Vadtal as well. To alleviate the POV and incorrect sourcing, the new sentence in the 'Practices' section summarizes the code of conduct for devotees suggested by Kbhatt22 using NPOV. Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
:I am just adding to Apollo that the Shikshapatri applies to all members of the faith and it is stated in there that's how you become a member of the Sampraday not the sects. We can use Acharayas wives if that helps you sleep better at night and you are welcome to add other deviations of other sects if you feel the need too. What do you suggest we put as there needs to be information on how to join and the BAPS god has stated how to do so by saying Swaminarayan states in the Shikshapatri that male satsangis are initiated by the acharya he comes under....?
::Out of curiosity, why didn't you have the same energy at this text that I had to change because it was definitely a
WP:POVPUSH: "The tilak is a u-shaped saffron-colored symbol made of sandalwood, symbolizing God’s feet, and the chandlo is a red symbol made of kumkum, symbolizing God’s ideal devotee?" It seems there is only selectively picking and choosing...
Kevpopz (
talk) 04:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::::@
Kbhatt22 What needs to be done to place this information in the right place of the article? This is endless reasoning and the biases are very clear.
Kevpopz (
talk) 18:20, 24 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::I will wait another day. This is getting so drawn out....
Kevpopz (
talk) 02:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
ThaNDNman224 sorry I respectfully disagree with you on your reasoning about fairness because the discussion was here for others to respond for a few days. I agree it could have waited a little more (I moved the placement once it had already been added) but conversely, given your reasoning above I am sure you agree, it is unfair to say something that was discussed between 2 users should be reverted but Apollo added his version to practices without discussing with anyone after the revert.
In terms of the section, the sources and reasoning was presented in clarity with a primary and secondary According to the text written by the founder, there are rules of membership/initiation so that was what was there. Can you present the sources that contradicts the primary and secondary source presented that you have read? It would help better guide this discussion. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 02:12, 25 September 2020 (UTC) (I also added to new religious section accidently. My bad)
According to Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi (Vadtal Gadi) and Nar Narayan Dev Gadi (Ahmedabad Gadi), Swaminarayan stated in the Shikshaprati, "The Acharyas are the religious heads and they shall initiate male disciples according to Vedic rituals” and "Our followers who act according to these directions, shall certainly obtain the four great objects of human desire the disciplined life (dharma), material gain (artha), pleasure (kama) and salvation (moksha)."[note 10][67][68]
:::::::@
Skubydoo That's interesting that you perceive editors are trying to maintain NPOV though that isn't the case. In
Islam it does say for muslims what the process is:
/info/en/?search=Muslims#Qualifier. And in
ISKON,
Swadhyaya Movement and
Mormonism founders have not stated an explicit formal process to become a member in their doctrine like how Swaminarayan commands that only,
::::::: :*the Acharayas and their wife's can initiate. Shikshapatri 128,133
:::::::This is significant to include as in the same book it stated that the ultimate purpose of life can be earned by following his commands....
::::::: :*My disciples who live in accordance of the precepts of this Shikshapatri shall attain the four Purusharthas: Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha. Shikshapatri 206
:::::::And then the next verse Swaminarayn himself literally states the consequence of not following his command for membership:
::::::: :*Those of my male and female disciples, who do not follow the precepts of this Shikshapatri, shall be considered as excommunicated from our Sampradaya. Shikshapatri 207
::::::: I can see how groups that broke away from this requirement would not want this to be in the article. It does merit being included in the article since the doctrine, the Swaminarayans own writings, requires a formal process which is the only way of joining.
:::::::
Kevpopz (
talk) 15:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
“I respectfully disagree with you on your reasoning about fairness because the discussion was here for others to respond for a few days”just keep in mind that consensus is not assumed just because nobody responds to a post that they previously participated in, particularly when everyone here has been active on this page for the last several weeks (WP:TALKDONTREVERT). I would just encourage you and everyone else to really understand what others are saying before jumping into rash edits and reverts on the article. Moksha88 ( talk) 00:52, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
I noticed that the “New religious movement” category was associated with the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and out of curiosity I began reading about what ‘New religious movements’ entailed. The Swaminarayan Sampradaya was founded in the early 1800s, has millions of followers worldwide, and has traditions rooted in Vedanta philosophies. Therefore, I don’t think it meets the definition of a new religious movement and I have removed it from the article and talk page. Actionjackson09 ( talk) 19:51, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
:: It says right on the
New religious movement page that "Some scholars view the 1950s or the end of the Second World War in 1945 as the defining time, while others look as far back as the founding of the Latter Day Saint movement in 1830.". BAPS and Swaminarayan Gadi were found 1907 and 1940. They should be added to that list and I went ahead and did so. Thanks for the catch
Kevpopz (
talk) 20:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:38, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::::: I see where you are coming from. Episcopal church is a good example and I want to know why. Let's discuss this topic on that page. Maybe we can have some more diverse thoughts.
Kevpopz (
talk) 04:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:38, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
...we should see NRMs as those groups constantly being formed on the fringe of the older, more stable parts of the religious community, and those older fringe groups that are able to maintain a high tension with the religious establishment.
New religious tendencies are all around us. They appear as dissenting and innovative movements in established churches that at any time can separate from the parent body, such as the New Apostolic Reformation movement on the edge of Pentecostalism; sectarian movements that in a different context become new religions, like the Swaminarayan groups; and new innovative religious impulses that synthesize a new religious gestalt.
I found a couple sources as well labeling the entire branch and particularly BAPS and by proxy Swaminarayan Gadi. Seems pretty apparent but waiting to see how Melton is refuted.
Kevpopz (
talk) 07:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:38, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone, 2 months ago Applebutter221 ( talk · contribs) and numerous unregistered users edited this article and other Swaminarayan related articles disruptively. Applebutter221 ( talk · contribs) and the unregistered users were confirmed to be sockpuppets of Swamiblue ( talk · contribs) [ 1] and were consequently banned. More recently, editors Kevpopz ( talk · contribs) and Portland21 ( talk · contribs) were also found to be sockpuppets of Swamiblue ( talk · contribs) [ 2]. As per WP:SOCKSTRIKE talk page posts by sockpuppets should be crossed out or outright deleted if no one has responded to a post by the sockpuppet. WP:SOCKSTRIKE also states that article edits made by a sockpuppet should be reverted, I have confirmed this with the admin involved with the SPI [ 3]. The idea is to deter sockpuppeting since incorporating the socks’ edits will just encourage this behavior and further their disruptive editing. I have noticed some of the sock’s major edits have been removed, I will go through their edits on this page and start removing any remaining edits. Please feel free to help remove their edits. Harshmellow717 ( talk) 03:04, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
I’ve reviewed the Sahajanand Swami section and made edits accordingly. Below is a summary of my edits and rationale:
Apollo1203 ( talk) 04:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Harshmellow717 for reverting the blocked sockpuppet’s (Kevpopz) edits. With the many edits and revisions over time, the lead paragraph became too lengthy and lacked logical flow making it hard to follow. At first glance it may appear that my edit removed a lot of material. However, I believe there was undue weight given to a lot of information and it would not give a reader a brief and clear overview of the article’s content. MOS:LEADREL, MOS:INTRO Apollo1203 ( talk) 15:49, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
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Swaminarayan Sampradaya has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Not sure who this goes too. First time editing under this protection sanction. The image under early history appears 3 times on the page now. It is in the Sahajanand Swami section, early monasticism section, and in the scriptures section as the book cover. Can the first two instances be removed? Or at least any 2 of 3. Looks to have been added in the third time in error. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 14:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
There seems to be some form of bias and unverified claims under the Gunatit Samaj section. The sources/references mentioned in the section do not allude to the claims mentioned in that section. The matter(s) asserted there should be looked at & sufficient sources should be provided to prove those assertions to be true, at the moment this simply is not the case and a one-sided argument is portrayed with vindictive connotations. GunatitSamaj1966 ( talk) 09:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
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Swaminarayan Mandir Vasna Sanstha (SMVS) is a Hindu denomination within the Swaminarayan Sampradaya which propagates the preaching and teaching of Swaminarayan. Devnandandasji Swami, usually addressed as HDH Bapji his devotees and followers, is the founder and mentor of the organization. Multifaceted activities in areas like social, cultural, educational, religious fields are carried out by SMVS under the directions and guidance of Bapji and his second in-command and current Guru Satyasankalpdasji Swami, who is usually addressed as HDH Swamishri. Sahaj01 ( talk) 17:49, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi all, I have made a few edits for clarity, please see my reasoning below.
Shikshapatri
The citation to Paramtattvadas 2017 does not mention the Shikshapatri, therefore, I have removed that as a source. Based on Brahmbhatt and Williams 2018, I’ve updated the sentence to match the source.
Sacred biographies
The sentence cited to Peter Schreiner gives undue weight ( WP:UNDUE) to his claim that the Satsangi Jivan is the oldest and most authentic source. It doesn’t appear to be a claim with academic consensus ( WP:RS/AC). Williams 2018 does not state this either (I am specifically referencing Williams since there is a mutual acceptance of his scholarship). I have removed this one sentence.
Vedanta Commentaries
I re-read through this section and have made a few edits. The sentence added to the last paragraph (Paramtattvadas Swami describes Swaminarayan’s teachings…) was not in the source cited and it did not seem logically placed. I rewrote the sentence and placed it directly after the Swaminarayan Bhashyam is introduced. I have rewritten the Kashi Vidvat Parisad paragraph to improve flow and avoid stringing direct quotes. And finally, I’ve updated the text regarding the World Sanskrit Conference.
Harshmellow717 ( talk) 01:31, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Within the Beliefs section, I made a few edits aiming for greater concision and clarity (and therefore greater readability) since upon closer examination, some of the text was redundant. First, I removed the 'Background' section and combined it with the introductory section creating two paragraphs. The version that existed in the Background section made valid points; however, I reworded it to remove the string of direct quotes and improve the content's flow. Second, as Note 5 was an exact duplicate of the text within the Metaphysics section, I have removed it. Next, I removed two redundant sentences regarding the human-form manifestation. Overall, the modifications aim to improve readability of a fairly esoteric topic for non-specialist readers, while maintaining accuracy to scholarly sources. Finally, I added a transition statement in the Moksha section leading to the final paragraph. Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:31, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi all, I have edited the practices section for improved clarity and readability. Since the spiritual practices are encompassed within Ekantik Dharma I removed the opening paragraph and Ekantik Dharma subheading. The first few paragraphs provide a sufficient overview. Harshmellow717 ( talk) 00:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
The previous version of the introductory section emphasized weight on one perspective of successorship vs. the other. The edit I have made to the introductory section puts equal weight on both modes of successorship. I think it would be helpful to the non-specialist reader if the names of the dioceses are kept consistent throughout the article. I have changed all the current names to their official names, according to their website, as the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi and Nar Narayan Dev Gadi. I made a minor edit in the Swaminarayan Gadi section regarding their current leader (all branches listed do not have dates the leaders were appointed). Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
In the Lekh, Swaminarayan established two "administrative dioceses,"
According to the Laxmi Narayan Dev and Nar Narayan Dev Gadis, Swaminarayan established two "administrative dioceses," [...] via the Lekh
According to a number of traditions, Swaminarayan introduced a spiritual lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus through which he manifests.
According to a majority of branches, Swaminarayan also introduced a spiritual lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus through which he manifests.
Hi all, I went back and looked at all the sources presented in our previous discussions regarding this matter and have edited the article for conciseness and readability based on them and have removed the information that could not be sourced. I could not find an “active case” regarding the acharyaship issue. The article cited DeshGujarat [ 1] but I couldn’t find any mention of an active case in it or any other news articles for that matter. The article also cites DNA India [ 2] and states “Gujarat high court has stayed the Nadiad court order removing Ajendraprasad until a final verdict is reached. He is restrained from enjoying the rights of acharya during the proceedings” According to DNA India, The Nadiad court declared that Ajendraprasad is not the acharya and prohibited him from entering the Vadtal gadi temples. The Gujarat High Court agreed with the Nadiad court that Ajendraprasad is not the acharya but disagreed with the ruling that Ajendraprasad should be banned from entering Vadtal Gadi property. DNA India states, “The bench, however, did not restore his position as former acharya so as to enable him to enjoy the rights associated with the position, but he can visit the religious sites as a commoner.” From my understanding, in order for Ajendraprasad to become acharya, he would need a court ruling to reinstate him to the post, until that time Rakeshprasad is acharya. Harshmellow717 ( talk) 01:50, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
I made several edits in this section, mostly for clarity and to reduce redundancy. I also edited ‘Early Monasticism’ to give context for why Swaminarayan ordained paramhansas and removed details that I felt did not add clarity. Moksha88 ( talk) 18:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
I also reviewed a chapter that Williams co-authored with Paramtattvadas Swami entitled, “Swaminarayan and British Contacts in Gujarat in the 1820s,” published in Swaminarayan Hinduism which recounts a report of William Hodge Mill, a contemporary British official with the words of their report in quotes.“Sahajanand initiated paramhansas as a temporary accommodation to the persecutions, and he ceased to ordain persons to this highest status after his position was more secure and the British government was established in Gujarat.” (Williams 2018, 25).
“Both Kubersinh and Bhajananand explained that Swaminarayan followers did not ‘render railing for railing or evil for evil’. This meant that when others took advantage of their peaceful disposition by beating them violently, they were wholly dependent on the government for protection. But this was also a cause for concern as they described to Mill the ‘persecutions’ they suffered at the hands of the Gaekwar’s government, saying that they did not get support from the judges who claimed to be unable to adjudicate disputes between Vaishnavas. This need for protection against violence and injustice is further iterated in a petition sent from Swaminarayan himself in 1827 to Sir John Malcolm, governor of the Bombay Presidency.” (Paramtattvadas & Williams 2016, 65)
Shree Laxmi-Narayan Dev (Vadtal gadi) and Shree Nar-Narayan Dev (Ahmedabad gadi) are the ONLY TWO Gadis established by Lord Swaminarayan Himself. Lord Shree Swaminarayan manifested Himself at Chhapaiya, a small village, 20 kms. north of Ayodhya in U.P., on Monday, the ninth day of bright half or Chaitra of Samvat year 1837, 2nd April, 1781 at 10 Hrs. 10 Minutes at night.
It should be noted that the "Original Swaminarayan Sampraday" consists of ONLY TWO GADIS - Vadtal Gadi (Shree Laxmi-Narayan Dev gadi) and Ahmedabad Gadi (Shree Nar-Narayan Dev gadi).
The name Swaminarayan, as some try to suggest, does not indicate two names "Swami and Narayan." It is one whole full proper name of God Supreme. It means one who is omnipresent (Sarva Vyapak). In all objects, sentient (Chitt) including Aksharbrahmn, as well as non-sentient (Achit) ones are always pervaded by Him and are internally controlled by Him. Swaminarayan means one who is omnipotent (Sarva Antaryami). All objects, including Aksharbrahmn are subservient to Him. It means one who is omniscient (Sarvajna Sarvatantra Sivatantra). All objects, including Aksharbrahmn, derive power of thinking (Ichha Shakti), power of knowledge (Jyan Shakti) and power of action (Kriya Shakti) from Him. It means one who is (Ekmevadvitiya), one without a second. This meaning is explained in detail in Vachanamrut (No. 64 of Gadhada Chapter I) Desi samurai ( talk) 21:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
It is really sad to see how the content on this Wikipedia article is completely biased in the favor of baps, before 2019 this article included detailed information about every organization, breakaway groups as well as original philosophy of swaminarayan sect, no there is a lot of content which is biased and it also contradicts to the principles of original swaminarayan sampraday Desi samurai ( talk) 21:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
ThaNDNman224 ( talk) 03:20, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Moksha88 and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Systematic NPOV review needed in the BAPS topic area. I'm going to review the edits of the past year.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC) / update Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:48, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
I made a few changes today. It is no secret I am a bit more image focused so had kicked off an image discussion that ended based on consensus majority from a bunch of sock users. My reasoning for my changes:
Kbhatt22 ( talk) 16:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
1 - This change set is just removing the excess details promoting the one branch over the rest and simplifies it down. The section lists the various charity wings across the branches but then lists specific examples of only one. There is already a specific page for that charity group (that reads like a marketing brochure) so its a little excess here. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 19:38, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
For future inclusion: Hindu Sect Is Accused of Using Forced Labor to Build N.J. Temple, New York Times. See also diff, Talk:Swaminarayan Akshardham (North America)#Removed - 2021 forced labor controversy, and Talk:Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha#Worker Exploitation. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:59, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Shri Hari Prabodham created from the Split from Gunatit Samaj (The Yogi Divine Society).
Swami Prabodhjivan Das, founder of Shri Hari Prabodham in 2022. Vp4777 ( talk) 22:35, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The text written for the Gunatit Samaj seems to be highly biased, vindictive, antagonistic. It does not conform to the standard of 'information' which needs to be displayed on a site such as Wikipedia. The text is pure 'hearsay' and lacks concrete & supporing evidence for the claims made, thus the text should be edited and changed to the following:
The Gunatit Samaj was established in 1996 under the instruction and inspiration received by the BAPS Guru at the time Yogiji Maharaj. The Gunatit Samaj was formed by two brothers, Dadubhai (Kakaji) & Babubhai (Pappaji) who were excommunicated from BAPS due to the nature of the work they were tasked to do.
Yogiji Maharaj expressed a wish in accordance to the Vachanamrut Last Section of Gadhada No. 26 for women to also dedicate their lives to the service of God (like their male counterparts as Sadhus) & achieve a state of transcendence. This wish had been conveyed to Pappaji and Kakaji in 1952 after a question was posed by Pappaji to Yogiji Maharaj regarding the daughters of Sonaba (A founder of the Gunatit Samaj) who wanted to lead a life dedicated to God.
Yogiji Maharaj had given his blessings regarding what path the two sisters should take and had answered "What is wrong if these sisters want to devote their lives to God? God will ensure that this will happen, and further more you are to undertake this task.”. [1]
Thereafter, a separate establishment was established in Vallabh Vidyanagar by Pappaji, his brother; Kakaji and Sonaba whose daughters were the first two to join the establishment ordained in the saffron-clad, they were then followed by two others and a total of 51 women had joined the establishment in 1966. Heavy opposition was received from members of the BAPS sect and as a result, Pappaji and Kakaji were excommunicated from BAPS by trustee members. [2] [3]: 72 [4] [5]
Many were also in support of the establishment for the uplifment of women leading their lives as ascetics and thus 40 Sadhus initiated by Yogiji Maharaj who expressed support of Kakaji and Pappaji had also left. The youth in the Akshar-Purushottam Hostel (Chhatralay) in Vallabh Vidyanagar had also been asked to vacate due to showing support and taking the words of the two brothers as the commands of Yogiji Maharaj. Despite efforts between Kakaji, Pappaji and senior saints at BAPS a firm resolution couldn't be met.
The Samaj (Community) constitutes of four factions (the ordained saints, ordained sisters, ordained brothers, and ordained householders). Each faction is respectively led under a spiritual head (who is believed to be the present manifestation of Swaminarayan). The Gunatit Samaj now spans worldwide with centres in the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, Australia, France and many other countries. [3]: 72–73, 127 [4]
References
Williams2018
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite conference}}
: CS1 maint: date format (
link)
GunatitSamaj1966 ( talk) 00:05, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
I have thoroughly reviewed all the edits in the Major Branches section and I have given my rationales for the further edits I have done. I hope you all take the time to understand each point and why the edit was made.
[Explanations per subsection moved to subthreads, to keep a readable overview. JJ 26 sept. 2020]
I hope you all take the time to understand and read through the rationale of all the edits I have made. Kevpopz I had mentioned that my thorough study of the available Swaminarayan scholarship has helped in formulating an NPOV article in hopes for a clear and thorough explanation of what the Swaminarayan Sampradaya is. Wikipedia is not a platform to debate which doctrine is correct vs incorrect. The edits I have made are driven by correcting the policy violations I have observed, improving the lack of readability, and extracting important information from reliable academic sources. If there are any edits in question, I’d like to request all users to engage on the talk page and propose alternatives instead of simply reverting or beginning an edit war. Thank you. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph is more focused on the Vadtal and Ahmedabad dioceses without giving context to the other branches of this tradition. WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV I’ve modified the content while still ensuring the crux of the information remains. The new edit summarizes why and how the two dioceses were created. As this is an introductory paragraph to the entire section, it should not solely be focused on Vadtal or Ahmedabad. I’ve added a little more context to also discuss Swaminarayan Gadi as well. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Swaminarayan gave the acharyas of Ahmedabad and Vadtal gadi's the exclusive right to build and control temples,[5]:170 and the authority to perform the ritual of installation of the sacred images in the temples built in their dioceses and the ritual for the rededication of the images after the renovation of a temple.[1]:38[127] BAPS believes that authority is dictated by spiritual virtues rather than a hereditary lineage.[1]:59–60 According to the BAPS, important rituals of the sampradaya, such as the ordaining of swamis, and the installation of sacred images in the mandirs can be performed by the guru, being the rightfull successor of Swaminarayan.[1]:59–60
::See JJ's response [below] above. The acharays are not just administrators. That is a BAPS narrative. They have religious duties explicitly outlined.
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
He appointed his two nephews, Ayodhyaprasad and Raghuvir, to administer his temple properties. This action later started a hereditary line of succession.
... the regulation of succession by inheritance within the family which Sahajananda instituted (according to 4,24:12): 'For the sake of the thriving of the way of devotion, initiation by means of the sacred formula is required; therefor I shall establish the office of sacred teacher among the pure descendants of Dharma.'
He then installed them as acharyas (or preceptors) to head the movement [...] the acharyas, while primarily temporal leaders, had been assigned several essential spiritual functions, most notably the final act of installation of deity statues in a new temple and the reinstallation of the deities in older temples following major renovation. The acharyas also initiated candidates into the ascetic life as sadhus.
Sahajanand Swami established n institutional structure that provided for the perpetuation of the swaminarayan satsang, the community of followers-in-truth.
In order to lessen undue weight to each branch and leaders, I’ve reduced the text yet maintained the information to ensure readers understands the who, when, why. There was redundancy in mentioning who was the appointed acharya by Swaminarayan for each diocese, my edit is more concise and is clear. Also, the sentence ‘At certain points in the Lekh…’ is copy-paste from Hatcher. Within the Major branches section this is another incident of copyright infringement, I believe this is the 3rd instance of copyright violation! I have placed a warning regarding this copyright. WP:COPYVIO There is an overemphasis on the Lekh and it is given undue weight. There was a reference to Vachanamrut Vadtal 18, however in this Vachanamrut, Swaminarayan only states that one should understand Ramanand’s guru to be Ramanuj and Swaminarayan as Ramanand’s disciple. Also the reference to Dharmakul is to Swaminarayan himself and the family of his father. It appears Swaminarayan is emphasizing one to understand the guru lineage but I did not see anything regarding moksha. I also did not see any reference of moksha and acharya in Gadhada 1-1.8 (I checked Gadhada 1.1 and 1.8, I was not sure which specific Vachanamrut you were referencing). Finally, including a note on the 1935 lawsuit, which is also placed in the BAPS section, is completely irrelevant to the statement it is placed after. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
There was a reference to Vachanamrut Vadtal 18, however in this Vachanamrut, Swaminarayan only states that one should understand Ramanand’s guru to be Ramanuj and Swaminarayan as Ramanand’s disciple. 'I also did not see any reference of moksha and acharya in Gadhada 1-1.8 (I checked Gadhada 1.1 and 1.8, I was not sure which specific Vachanamrut you were referencing).
Also the reference to Dharmakul is to Swaminarayan himself and the family of his father. It appears Swaminarayan is emphasizing one to understand the guru lineage but I did not see anything regarding moksha.
:You are entitled to your interpretation of Dharmakul but family of his father would include his two other sons who the acharayas came from. Also the BAPS worships the dharmakul at their sarangpur temple which includes the who whole fam.
https://www.baps.org/Global-Network/India/Sarangpur/Mandir-Info.aspx
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The sentence ‘A lawsuit in 1935...’ in the BAPS section misrepresents the cited sources WP:SYNTH. The fact is that there was a lawsuit (Melton 2020, pg95) however Williams also states that the judge determined that Yagnapurushdas had not been legally excommunicated from the Vadtal diocese (Williams 2018, page 63-66) with the final decision that the BAPS swamis could not stay or visit those temples. The scholarship does not indicate that the BAPS swamis were attempting to operate out of the Vadtal or Ahmedabad diocese upon separating. I’ve removed the sentence ‘regarding Gunatitand Swami, the guru of his own guru…’, the sources cited here state nothing of Bhagatji Maharaj being the guru of Shastriji Maharaj. The idea that the lineage begins from Gunatitanand Swami is stated in the second paragraph to better capture the historical and theological context just as it has been done in the Swaminarayan Gadi section. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
::[@Apollo1203] Then what do you suggest we put to let readers know that BAPS is in fact a legally separate institution from the Original Sampraday?
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The name used for the group in the scholarship is Swaminarayan Gadi therefore I have changed it back to that. The introductory sentences were poorly structured. The new sentence clearly states why, when, and who regarding the establishment of the Swaminarayan Gadi. In order to maintain neutrality and not give undue weight, the biographical description of Abji Bapa has been removed WP:UNDUE. The section is for a brief description of the branches not the biography of key members of the group. If the details of Abji Bapa and the history of Swaminarayan Gadi is notable, a new article should be created and a reader can navigate to that article for more details. Additionally, Penguin Books does not appear to be an academic publishing house and is a questionable source. WP:SOURCETYPES. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
:Jewels of Gujarat, Volume II: Leading Global Gujarati Personalities. (2019). India: Maneesh Media and
https://www.indiatimes.com/trending/social-relevance/swaminarayan-gives-prasad-using-mouth-tests-covid-19-positive-517760.html states the proper name.
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Within Gunatit Samaj, the last sentence (“Although small in followers in comparison to the Vadtal…”) is a clear copyright violation. It is plagiarized word for word from Williams (2018) page 73. This is the 4th instance where Kevpopz has plagiarised. WP:PLAGARISM, WP:COPYVIO. I have placed a final warning on your page regarding this violation. I don’t think there is encyclopedic value for this article in added information on what members of Gunatit Samaj wear. I have removed that as it is not adding significant value to the article. WP:EXCESSDETAIL. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
:I get a little confused. Even if I am quoted and cited it's a copyright issue? The reason why what the Gunatit Samaj (Anoopam Mission) wears matters because their guru, Yogi instructed them to do so and is an identifying feature and the first Swaminarayan group to have sadhu's that can work jobs but still are sadhus. It is notable.
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Yet again, I noticed copy-pasted material from the sources used in the Swaminarayan Gurukul section. Simply changing one word does not free the sentence from copyright violation. I’ve re-worded the section attempting to use the same sources you had cited. Regarding the number of gurukuls, Williams 2018 states a number of gurukuls whereas the cited news article from 2017 claims 150 centers in the sampradaya. As Williams 2018 is an academic and reliable source (which everyone agrees to), I’ve removed the 150 gurukuls sentence and kept the numbers from Williams. Overall, I don’t entirely agree with keeping the Swaminarayan Gurukul section as it is not a prominent sect discussed in Swaminarayan scholarship like the major branches listed currently. However, in an effort to assume good faith I will not completely delete it or revert it. It appears that the group is still associated with the Ahmedabad and/or Vadtal diocese since they have not formally separated so it may make sense to move it within the Ahmedabad/Vadtal paragraph or even put this text in the Laxminarayan Dev Gadi Wikipedia page. Let’s see what the other editors think. Apollo1203 ( talk) 01:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
:This is fine. Let’s see what the other editors think.
Kevpopz (
talk)
11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
I understand your frustration that you have to repeat yourself and your points Joshua Jonathan as editors have repeatedly discussed the reliability of scholars' works irrespective of their affiliation/religion/etc. You note that Iva Patel incorrectly presents Gunatitanand Swami’s spiritual successorship as a historical fact. The Iva Patel article is published in an academic encyclopedia. Encyclopedias serve to summarize the scholarly work. As such what Iva Patel is presenting is scholarly consensus on the matter. The volume in which the article is published is part of Springer’s Encyclopedia of Indian Religions book series [1]. By questioning the accuracy of Iva Patel, Joshua Jonathan questions the integrity of Springer publishing. If you truly feel this publisher is biased and unreliable I invite you to open an rfc at the reliable sources noticeboard for the deprecation of Springer publishing. Furthermore the Bhatt and Pandya quotes cited do not state they are representing the BAPS POV. Unless of course you come to that conclusion through your interpretation and WP:SYNTHESIS. Please tell me you did not conclude that Bhatt is representing the BAPS POV simply because he cites Paramtattvadas. Pandya mentions “Swaminarayan Sanstha” not BAPS. A quick google search of the term revealed that sanstha translates to “the organization” as per the definition provided by Oxford Languages [2]. Perhaps the term organization here refers to the sampradaya as a whole or maybe specific branches. As you are no doubt aware, a few branches in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya other than BAPS also have the term sanstha in their name. I have googled the authors whose works have been questioned, namely, Iva Patel, Kalpesh Bhatt, Sadhu Paramtattvadas, and Samta Pandya. Based on their University and social media profiles their religious affiliations are unclear, however, they all appear to be of Indian origin, which Skubydoo has pointed out in the post they made using WP:BIAS. I read WP:BIAS, and understood Skubydoo's point. However, Joshua Jonathan, your response to this was to note that such an observation could result in getting Skubydoo blocked. I am curious as to what wikipedia policy and what rationale you have to tell Skubydoo not to make such an observation or risk getting blocked, and I would appreciate it if Joshua Jonathan can shed some more light on this point of his. Tale.Spin ( talk) 22:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Joshua Jonathan has made some bizarre attempts to discredit I Patel and Paramtattvadas which is absurd to me since the works in question are published by Springer and Cambridge University respectively. You really can’t get more reliable and credible than that. I think the attempts to discredit specifically non-European scholars is part of Wikipedia’s systemic bias WP:BIAS. This practice of trying to assume a biased perspective of Indian writers (instead of creating the intellectual space to recognize scholarship from brown writers as valid, acceptable, and meaningful) and privileging European writers (as if they have no perspective at all and are inherently neutral, untainted, and superior) is extremely problematic. I was reading up on this systemic racial bias here: /info/en/?search=Racial_bias_on_Wikipedia.
Unless the sources are deprecated (WP:DEPS,) it is accepted on Wikipedia. Obviously, none of the sources I mentioned can be deprecated because they are published from the most reliable sources in the academic world. It’s so disappointing to see the racial bias on this talk page against some sources-- especially in an article for a figure in Hindu history known as a social reformer.
I think that this makes amply clear that I. Patel stands out as a rare voice here in the way she brings a BAPS-belief as a statement of fact; she reads like a simplified paraphrasis of sadhu Paramtattvadas. Solely citing I. Patel does not suffice; especially not when it is stated with more nuance by Paramtattvadas, and not backed-up by Williams and Kim, who have dedicated decades of research to the Swaminarayan movemement.
He introduced Gunatitanand Swami as his eternal, ideal devotee, from whom his followers should seek spiritual guidance. This started a lineage of gurus.
According to the BAPS, Swaminarayan identified Gunatitanand Swami as "his eternal, ideal devotee, from whom his followers should seek spiritual guidance," and designated him to be his spiritual successor. Consequently, according to the BAPS, a lineage of gurus was established in succession to Gunatitanand Swami. (Willimas; Melton; Kim; Paramtattvadas; I. Patel; Packert)
several branches believe that Swaminarayan remains incarnate through a lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus. Some branches believe this lineage to begin with Gunatitanand Swami.
According to a number of traditions, Swaminarayan introduced a spiritual lineage of gurus through which he keeps manifesting himself. BAPS adherents believe Swaminarayan introduced Gunatitanand Swami as his ideal devotee from which a spiritual lineage of gurus began reflecting the principle that a form of God who lives “before one’s eyes” is necessary for aspirants to attain moksha (liberation).
this is not what the current literature can do. None of the sources that have been discussed thus far are historical in nature. They are anthropological, comparative, and theological. Attempting to determine what actually happened, may not be possible with these sources, other than the general context provided by each source. For example, Melton has said: “Anticipating changes of the nature of the ascetic life, which would become widespread during the Hindu Renaissance, Swaminarayan informed the renunciates that their vows did not place them above manual labor and active service to the community.” (Melton, 92) I know that no one is going to add to the article that Swaminarayan anticipated how widespread renunciants would be in what Melton calls the Hindu Renaissance. So, we must understand each source within the context of the field in which they are published and the type of publication-- this does make things more complicated, but also may make things make more sense, as well.there are historical connections, which situate Swaminayaran in a historical and religious context, and deserve, nay need, to be mentioned to get a better understanding….
In the early years of the movement, Swaminarayan operated as a charismatic leader with an assumed divine status, and made all the major decisions relative to belief and practice, policies, and administration. While Swaminarayan lived, he appointed the sadhus (the monks who had taken renunciate vows) to head the various temples, and further, also named the lay temple administrators who, unlike the sadhus, could handle money and interact with female members. The gradual separation of spiritual and temporal authority in the group led to the most important decisions relative to the succession of authority at the time of Swaminarayan’s death. (Melton, 92-92)
That is not true. The Swaminarayan Gadi does a acknowledge the the Laxminaryan and Narnarayan Gadi’s claim that Swaminarayan appointed his nephews as acharyas. It is not a claim but it is written in every single scripture. The Gadi simply acknowledges that Gopalanand Swami was given authority per several scriptures and interpret he created an authority line that the Gadi followed per their guru. Please see here: https://www.swaminarayangadi.com/page.php?id=1224 Gottiyu ( talk) 19:58, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
I think that the Swamini Vato should be placed after the sacred biographies: first Swaminarayan, the common denominator, than branche-specific texts. The article should also clearly state which branches regard Gunatitanand as 'the first spiritual successor' (a formulation which needs correction, in the line of 'the first manifestation of Swaminarayan in a spiritual lineage of Aksar-gurus', paraphrasing out of my head Apollo120e's formulation), and which branches regard this text to be authoritative. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:49, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan:: I removed the 'when' tags from the 'Early monasticism' section. These tags are for “use when a lack of precision prevents you from understanding the material.” Within the context of the this section, it's clear the events for first tag occurred in the 1800s-1820s. For the second tag, the reference offers a specific date, June 30, 1807, and I feel it's irrelevant here. I hope that makes sense. Moksha88 ( talk) 23:17, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
This was a point raised over 2 months ago and kind of fell of everyone's radar. The initial discussion and break down is on my sandbox: /info/en/?search=User:Kbhatt22/sandbox. There are 9 images in the body of this article of which 8 originate from Baps. That's a solid 88%. The intent is to diversify the images to have some representation for the other branches instead of the images representing/promoting one branch. Try to be branch agnostic where we can, the best way for this is to try to pick images of things originally done by Swaminarayan himself. I looked through all the discussions and these were the only proposed revisions with actual images. Any one have any input or objection to the diversification? @ Joshua Jonathan: wouldn't mind some fresh input as well if possible.
Proposed Aarti Image Update (Not sure which one is better. Thoughts?):
Proposed Murti Image Update:
We could also replace the sketch image of the first swaminarayan temple with an actual image from the wiki catalog: /info/en/?search=Swaminarayan_Temple,_Ahmedabad#/media/File:Shree_Swaminarayan_Sampraday,_Ahmedabad.jpg
Thanks everyone. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 13:02, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Harshmellow717 for breaking this down. I think the proposed changes are good. Should we outline some of the details of the vadtal acharya dispute. From my understanding the case is still pending. So their isn't an active order that removes him but restrains him from performing as such. I am reading page 51 in Williams book which says that followers in some regions view Ajendra prasad and some view rakeshprasad. What if we updated the text for that to say something to the effect of - "The vadtal acharya position is currently in legal dispute with some viewing Ajendraprasad as Acharya and some viewing Rakeshprasad as Acharya." This would embody an ongoing dispute. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 10:45, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
:::I think this is good to go and should be added in the article.
Kevpopz (
talk) 14:57, 23 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:18, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi Apollo1203. Hope all is well. I added in some clarification to one of the edits you did yesterday as this was being discussed for a while here. I figure I would let you know here and hope it is not a contentious point as it is sourced and relatively basic. I didn't want to add this as a footnote on your new section at the bottom of the talk page as I didn't want to add more talking points there. There are a lot of points you brought up and there are already enough users talking in that section so felt it won't benefit from me being another user in the conversation so I'll drop this note here. Thanks! Kbhatt22 ( talk) 14:26, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
page
Hi
Kbhatt22 (
talk ·
contribs), both Melton (2020) and Williams (2018) make it clear that Rakeshparasad is acharya and that Ajendraprasad refutes the courts judgement, they also make no mention of the Dev paksh and Siddhant paksh groups and their respective affiliations. The current edit seems to be mainly based off of an outdated news article published in 2015. (see
WP:AGEMATTERS,
WP:NOTNEWS).
The current article states:
The current acharya of the Nar Narayan Dev Gadi is Koshalendraprasad Pande. There is currently an active case regarding the Vadtal Gadi centered around a factional dispute between Dev paksh, the faction led by Rakeshprasad Pande, and Siddhant paksh, which is led by Ajendraprasad Pande.[88] Gujarat high court has stayed the Nadiad court order removing Ajendraprasad until a final verdict is reached. He is restrained from enjoying the rights of acharya during the proceedings.[89] Dev paksh, governing the Vadtal temple trust, has appointed Rakeshprasad to act and officiate as acharya..[90][1]:51 Siddhant paksh believes Ajendraprasad is the current acharya and welcome his son, Nrigendraprasad, to officiate at functions in Swaminarayan temples in his absence.[12]
Instead, a better formulation based on the academic sources is:
The current acharya of the Nar Narayan Dev Gadi is Koshalendraprasad Pande. The current acharya of the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi is Rakeshprasad Pande, who replaced Ajendraprasad Pande based on rulings of the Indian Supreme Court. Ajendraprasad and his son, Nrigendraprasad, continue to challenge the judgment of the courts with the support of a small minority of the Laxminarayan Dev Gadi (TOI news article); (Melton 2020, pg. 97-98, 102); (Williams 2018, pg. 51).
As per WP:RS, “When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources.” We should give preference to Williams (2018) and Melton (2020) over the outdated Times of India, DNA India, and Deshgujarat news articles. Harshmellow717 ( talk) 02:49, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
page
Kevpopz ( talk · contribs) I appreciate your proactive spirit in editing the article images, however, as you can see a few users discussed edits to images in detail prior to making edits. In the spirit of collaborative editing, I have removed the images you added. Please feel free to suggest image updates in your sandbox. Below are my comments on the images you had added:
Thanks Harshmellow717 ( talk) 23:09, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
I looked at and it I didn't make any picture count changes to the Original Sampraday vs the others so I don't think it needs to be discussed further. I made comments above.
Kevpopz (
talk) 20:22, 21 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
The last thing ANYBODY wants is for me to talk more about images haha. As previously mentioned, we have discussed images over the last few months now and worked to get things much more balanced. The only outstanding items were Harshmellow and I were having a respectful conversation about the vadtal situation. We agreed with each other and were working out wording. The only other outstanding item was the other users volunteered to reach out to gather images for Maninagar and Gunatit samaj. Sometimes the places with the images never respond or take weeks or months and there is nothing we can do about it and just have to wait. The rest of the images have been discussed through. The only additional observation I want to put out there about the images in the last few edits is the stamp image was removed because of copyright but also because Dadubhai isn't the current leader of that branch(which is the trend we were going for) and we were trying to find an image of Hariprasad to use but one with permission wasn't available. So a couple reasons why that stamp image had to be removed.
Kbhatt22 (
talk)
23:38, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
@
Kbhatt22, so the Ramananand Swami photo is fine under a better pic that can be found. I replaced the Shikshapatri with a cleaner pic and chose a clearer picture for the Ahmedbad temple. The picture remaining in question is the paramhansas, the acharayas and and swaminarayam. It shows each form of authority partipant. I can't even imagine how that is considered non neutral when the other photo completely leaves out the acharayas.
Kevpopz (
talk) 00:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
@
talk Thanks for the updates. Regardless of each branch having different beliefs, we can't have one side push the narrative. When Swaminarayan was alive, he was the leader and he had the paramhansas (Senior Disciples) and the acharayas. A picture that only shows the leader and the paramhansas is clearly one sides. I just checked and this is a BAPS owned photo which is obviously going to leave out the acharayas. The photo currently has all three represented so there is no reason for people to get upset unless they unaware of the blatant violation of neutrality.
Kevpopz (
talk) 01:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::Okay but why revert something that isn't currently being disputed. After the edit has been made, it can be discussed or am I wrong? It's not a controversial edit. So what is the issue with the picture of Swaminarayan, Senior Paramhansas, & Acharayas together vs the BAPS image of just Swaminarayan and Senior Paramhansas?
Kevpopz (
talk) 03:35, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::: I just realized that the picture that is being currently used and disputed is already used in the Vachnamrut cover. The sect pushing agenda on here is insane. Why would we have the same picture twice? No one has addressed this in a few days so if there is a problem, then discuss the new edit here with out reverting.
Kevpopz (
talk) 14:19, 23 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::::::::
User:Actionjackson09 Two points and I think you missed both of them. First, the picture is already used in the article. It is repetitive and doesn't need to be used twice. It is on the cover of the BAPS vachnamrut and is very visible. Next the picture itself is a BAPS photo that shows Gunatitanad Swami sitting the closest to Swaminarayan when in face Guntatitanad is not mentioned in the vachnamrut nor an author and BAPS entire interpretation is based on Akshar being him so there is POVPUSHING. Per the scriptures during Swaminarayan's time, the acharyas were made the successors and Gopalanand Swami was charged with looking after the temples of of Vadtal and Ahmedabad and all of the ascetics in the sampradaya. Please do not leave messages on my talk page without merit and do not only selectively make points and ignore the straightforward points that this picture is used twice so you are getting your way regardless and the image is placed in an area that completely ignores the context of text that he explicitly designated leadership. There is sect pushing going on. Should we get an administrator to resolve this because it is becoming apparent which users will side where? Why don't you finding shocking that 3 of the authors I uncovered on here are BAPS members and push a BAPS POV in their publishing's? You are very contradictory and selective what you are outraged at...
Kevpopz (
talk) 02:45, 24 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
So to throw in my 2 cents. Its a valid point that the current image was on the page twice. I uploaded the image into google and the closest thing I could find for a source (the original upload doesn't say where it came from) was this: https://www.swaminarayangadi.com/publications/video.php?pid=68. High res versions are on other sites as well but this seems to be the origin. So to put it in simple terms, both images in question originate from a book cover from a specific branch. The one used was from a Baps book cover, which is already on the page. The one proposed appears to come from a Maninagar Gadi book cover. Maninagar Gadi currently doesn't have a single image on the page or any image representation. Baps has 3 branch specific images and all 4 branch agnostic images originate from Baps as well. I think this is a good opportunity for us to give Maninagar gadi some image representation on the page. Now we could resolve this and the ramanand swami image concerns with something like this: https://www.swaminarayan.faith/media/2164/ramanand-swami-meets-shri-hari.jpg because it seems more neutral then both the current images being discussed....but I have reached out to that site before for a separate image months ago and never got a response. All in all, it is a valid point that the image is on the page twice and the proposed change gives a branch with 0 image representation at least 1 image. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 11:41, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
@
Kbhatt22, I concur. Not only is the image used twice, out of context, that is an overrepresentation of BAPS and ZERO of Maninagar. Based on this information, I am reverting the edit.
Kevpopz (
talk) 18:24, 24 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
== Membership ==
How can we incorporate how to join the Swaminarayan Sampraday into this article?
A member of the Swaminarayan Sampraday is known as a "Satsangi." Male satsangis are initiated by the acharya of the gadi or diocese he comes under. Female satsangis are initiated by the wife of the acharya, who is the leader of women in the Swaminarayan Sampraday.
We can quote from the Shikshapatri
Verse
Verse 128: I have enthroned the two Acharyas as spiritual leaders of my disciples, with a view to protect dharma. They shall initiate those male aspirants who are desirous of salvation.
Verse 133: The wives of these Acharyas, with the permission of their husbands, shall initiate, preach, and give the Mantra Diksha of Lord Shree Krishna to females only.
Source
Kevpopz (
talk) 08:30, 17 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::Sounds like a great addition. Let's go ahead and add it.
Kevpopz (
talk) 07:44, 18 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::Would you move the text? I will adjust the images.
Kevpopz (
talk) 12:37, 18 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks @
Kbhatt22. If you have time would you help me at my sandbox. I am looking for fresh citation and organization. I noticed this article is completely devoid of any information on the acharayas and sadhus during the sampradays foundation. I went back and found that a lot of stuff has been removed and now most of the article is slanted towards convincing readers of a darshan made up from a splinter group. I see another user said there is devotee ownership here and based on how the article reads, it feels so true.
Kevpopz (
talk) 18:17, 19 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::Doesn't the Shikshapatri apply to all sects?
Kevpopz (
talk) 05:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
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04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Joshua Jonathan to your question: I was not referring to the eleven basic rules you mentioned, but that some of the other text in the way the “Membership” section was worded was skewed towards the beliefs of only two of the branches. For example, the first sentence stated ‘Swaminarayan states in the Shikshapatri that male satsangis are initiated by the acharya he comes under.’ This is only applicable to Vadtal and Ahmedabad Diocese and could be seen as a WP:POVPUSH. The term ‘Gadiwala’ is specific to Ahmedabad and Vadtal as well. To alleviate the POV and incorrect sourcing, the new sentence in the 'Practices' section summarizes the code of conduct for devotees suggested by Kbhatt22 using NPOV. Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
:I am just adding to Apollo that the Shikshapatri applies to all members of the faith and it is stated in there that's how you become a member of the Sampraday not the sects. We can use Acharayas wives if that helps you sleep better at night and you are welcome to add other deviations of other sects if you feel the need too. What do you suggest we put as there needs to be information on how to join and the BAPS god has stated how to do so by saying Swaminarayan states in the Shikshapatri that male satsangis are initiated by the acharya he comes under....?
::Out of curiosity, why didn't you have the same energy at this text that I had to change because it was definitely a
WP:POVPUSH: "The tilak is a u-shaped saffron-colored symbol made of sandalwood, symbolizing God’s feet, and the chandlo is a red symbol made of kumkum, symbolizing God’s ideal devotee?" It seems there is only selectively picking and choosing...
Kevpopz (
talk) 04:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::::@
Kbhatt22 What needs to be done to place this information in the right place of the article? This is endless reasoning and the biases are very clear.
Kevpopz (
talk) 18:20, 24 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::I will wait another day. This is getting so drawn out....
Kevpopz (
talk) 02:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
ThaNDNman224 sorry I respectfully disagree with you on your reasoning about fairness because the discussion was here for others to respond for a few days. I agree it could have waited a little more (I moved the placement once it had already been added) but conversely, given your reasoning above I am sure you agree, it is unfair to say something that was discussed between 2 users should be reverted but Apollo added his version to practices without discussing with anyone after the revert.
In terms of the section, the sources and reasoning was presented in clarity with a primary and secondary According to the text written by the founder, there are rules of membership/initiation so that was what was there. Can you present the sources that contradicts the primary and secondary source presented that you have read? It would help better guide this discussion. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 02:12, 25 September 2020 (UTC) (I also added to new religious section accidently. My bad)
According to Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi (Vadtal Gadi) and Nar Narayan Dev Gadi (Ahmedabad Gadi), Swaminarayan stated in the Shikshaprati, "The Acharyas are the religious heads and they shall initiate male disciples according to Vedic rituals” and "Our followers who act according to these directions, shall certainly obtain the four great objects of human desire the disciplined life (dharma), material gain (artha), pleasure (kama) and salvation (moksha)."[note 10][67][68]
:::::::@
Skubydoo That's interesting that you perceive editors are trying to maintain NPOV though that isn't the case. In
Islam it does say for muslims what the process is:
/info/en/?search=Muslims#Qualifier. And in
ISKON,
Swadhyaya Movement and
Mormonism founders have not stated an explicit formal process to become a member in their doctrine like how Swaminarayan commands that only,
::::::: :*the Acharayas and their wife's can initiate. Shikshapatri 128,133
:::::::This is significant to include as in the same book it stated that the ultimate purpose of life can be earned by following his commands....
::::::: :*My disciples who live in accordance of the precepts of this Shikshapatri shall attain the four Purusharthas: Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha. Shikshapatri 206
:::::::And then the next verse Swaminarayn himself literally states the consequence of not following his command for membership:
::::::: :*Those of my male and female disciples, who do not follow the precepts of this Shikshapatri, shall be considered as excommunicated from our Sampradaya. Shikshapatri 207
::::::: I can see how groups that broke away from this requirement would not want this to be in the article. It does merit being included in the article since the doctrine, the Swaminarayans own writings, requires a formal process which is the only way of joining.
:::::::
Kevpopz (
talk) 15:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
“I respectfully disagree with you on your reasoning about fairness because the discussion was here for others to respond for a few days”just keep in mind that consensus is not assumed just because nobody responds to a post that they previously participated in, particularly when everyone here has been active on this page for the last several weeks (WP:TALKDONTREVERT). I would just encourage you and everyone else to really understand what others are saying before jumping into rash edits and reverts on the article. Moksha88 ( talk) 00:52, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
I noticed that the “New religious movement” category was associated with the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and out of curiosity I began reading about what ‘New religious movements’ entailed. The Swaminarayan Sampradaya was founded in the early 1800s, has millions of followers worldwide, and has traditions rooted in Vedanta philosophies. Therefore, I don’t think it meets the definition of a new religious movement and I have removed it from the article and talk page. Actionjackson09 ( talk) 19:51, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
:: It says right on the
New religious movement page that "Some scholars view the 1950s or the end of the Second World War in 1945 as the defining time, while others look as far back as the founding of the Latter Day Saint movement in 1830.". BAPS and Swaminarayan Gadi were found 1907 and 1940. They should be added to that list and I went ahead and did so. Thanks for the catch
Kevpopz (
talk) 20:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:38, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::::: I see where you are coming from. Episcopal church is a good example and I want to know why. Let's discuss this topic on that page. Maybe we can have some more diverse thoughts.
Kevpopz (
talk) 04:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:38, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
...we should see NRMs as those groups constantly being formed on the fringe of the older, more stable parts of the religious community, and those older fringe groups that are able to maintain a high tension with the religious establishment.
New religious tendencies are all around us. They appear as dissenting and innovative movements in established churches that at any time can separate from the parent body, such as the New Apostolic Reformation movement on the edge of Pentecostalism; sectarian movements that in a different context become new religions, like the Swaminarayan groups; and new innovative religious impulses that synthesize a new religious gestalt.
I found a couple sources as well labeling the entire branch and particularly BAPS and by proxy Swaminarayan Gadi. Seems pretty apparent but waiting to see how Melton is refuted.
Kevpopz (
talk) 07:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC) this editor is a banned sock puppet
Harshmellow717 (
talk)
04:38, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone, 2 months ago Applebutter221 ( talk · contribs) and numerous unregistered users edited this article and other Swaminarayan related articles disruptively. Applebutter221 ( talk · contribs) and the unregistered users were confirmed to be sockpuppets of Swamiblue ( talk · contribs) [ 1] and were consequently banned. More recently, editors Kevpopz ( talk · contribs) and Portland21 ( talk · contribs) were also found to be sockpuppets of Swamiblue ( talk · contribs) [ 2]. As per WP:SOCKSTRIKE talk page posts by sockpuppets should be crossed out or outright deleted if no one has responded to a post by the sockpuppet. WP:SOCKSTRIKE also states that article edits made by a sockpuppet should be reverted, I have confirmed this with the admin involved with the SPI [ 3]. The idea is to deter sockpuppeting since incorporating the socks’ edits will just encourage this behavior and further their disruptive editing. I have noticed some of the sock’s major edits have been removed, I will go through their edits on this page and start removing any remaining edits. Please feel free to help remove their edits. Harshmellow717 ( talk) 03:04, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
I’ve reviewed the Sahajanand Swami section and made edits accordingly. Below is a summary of my edits and rationale:
Apollo1203 ( talk) 04:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Harshmellow717 for reverting the blocked sockpuppet’s (Kevpopz) edits. With the many edits and revisions over time, the lead paragraph became too lengthy and lacked logical flow making it hard to follow. At first glance it may appear that my edit removed a lot of material. However, I believe there was undue weight given to a lot of information and it would not give a reader a brief and clear overview of the article’s content. MOS:LEADREL, MOS:INTRO Apollo1203 ( talk) 15:49, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
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edit request to
Swaminarayan Sampradaya has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Not sure who this goes too. First time editing under this protection sanction. The image under early history appears 3 times on the page now. It is in the Sahajanand Swami section, early monasticism section, and in the scriptures section as the book cover. Can the first two instances be removed? Or at least any 2 of 3. Looks to have been added in the third time in error. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 14:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
There seems to be some form of bias and unverified claims under the Gunatit Samaj section. The sources/references mentioned in the section do not allude to the claims mentioned in that section. The matter(s) asserted there should be looked at & sufficient sources should be provided to prove those assertions to be true, at the moment this simply is not the case and a one-sided argument is portrayed with vindictive connotations. GunatitSamaj1966 ( talk) 09:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Swaminarayan Mandir Vasna Sanstha (SMVS) is a Hindu denomination within the Swaminarayan Sampradaya which propagates the preaching and teaching of Swaminarayan. Devnandandasji Swami, usually addressed as HDH Bapji his devotees and followers, is the founder and mentor of the organization. Multifaceted activities in areas like social, cultural, educational, religious fields are carried out by SMVS under the directions and guidance of Bapji and his second in-command and current Guru Satyasankalpdasji Swami, who is usually addressed as HDH Swamishri. Sahaj01 ( talk) 17:49, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi all, I have made a few edits for clarity, please see my reasoning below.
Shikshapatri
The citation to Paramtattvadas 2017 does not mention the Shikshapatri, therefore, I have removed that as a source. Based on Brahmbhatt and Williams 2018, I’ve updated the sentence to match the source.
Sacred biographies
The sentence cited to Peter Schreiner gives undue weight ( WP:UNDUE) to his claim that the Satsangi Jivan is the oldest and most authentic source. It doesn’t appear to be a claim with academic consensus ( WP:RS/AC). Williams 2018 does not state this either (I am specifically referencing Williams since there is a mutual acceptance of his scholarship). I have removed this one sentence.
Vedanta Commentaries
I re-read through this section and have made a few edits. The sentence added to the last paragraph (Paramtattvadas Swami describes Swaminarayan’s teachings…) was not in the source cited and it did not seem logically placed. I rewrote the sentence and placed it directly after the Swaminarayan Bhashyam is introduced. I have rewritten the Kashi Vidvat Parisad paragraph to improve flow and avoid stringing direct quotes. And finally, I’ve updated the text regarding the World Sanskrit Conference.
Harshmellow717 ( talk) 01:31, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Within the Beliefs section, I made a few edits aiming for greater concision and clarity (and therefore greater readability) since upon closer examination, some of the text was redundant. First, I removed the 'Background' section and combined it with the introductory section creating two paragraphs. The version that existed in the Background section made valid points; however, I reworded it to remove the string of direct quotes and improve the content's flow. Second, as Note 5 was an exact duplicate of the text within the Metaphysics section, I have removed it. Next, I removed two redundant sentences regarding the human-form manifestation. Overall, the modifications aim to improve readability of a fairly esoteric topic for non-specialist readers, while maintaining accuracy to scholarly sources. Finally, I added a transition statement in the Moksha section leading to the final paragraph. Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:31, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi all, I have edited the practices section for improved clarity and readability. Since the spiritual practices are encompassed within Ekantik Dharma I removed the opening paragraph and Ekantik Dharma subheading. The first few paragraphs provide a sufficient overview. Harshmellow717 ( talk) 00:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
The previous version of the introductory section emphasized weight on one perspective of successorship vs. the other. The edit I have made to the introductory section puts equal weight on both modes of successorship. I think it would be helpful to the non-specialist reader if the names of the dioceses are kept consistent throughout the article. I have changed all the current names to their official names, according to their website, as the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi and Nar Narayan Dev Gadi. I made a minor edit in the Swaminarayan Gadi section regarding their current leader (all branches listed do not have dates the leaders were appointed). Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
In the Lekh, Swaminarayan established two "administrative dioceses,"
According to the Laxmi Narayan Dev and Nar Narayan Dev Gadis, Swaminarayan established two "administrative dioceses," [...] via the Lekh
According to a number of traditions, Swaminarayan introduced a spiritual lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus through which he manifests.
According to a majority of branches, Swaminarayan also introduced a spiritual lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus through which he manifests.
Hi all, I went back and looked at all the sources presented in our previous discussions regarding this matter and have edited the article for conciseness and readability based on them and have removed the information that could not be sourced. I could not find an “active case” regarding the acharyaship issue. The article cited DeshGujarat [ 1] but I couldn’t find any mention of an active case in it or any other news articles for that matter. The article also cites DNA India [ 2] and states “Gujarat high court has stayed the Nadiad court order removing Ajendraprasad until a final verdict is reached. He is restrained from enjoying the rights of acharya during the proceedings” According to DNA India, The Nadiad court declared that Ajendraprasad is not the acharya and prohibited him from entering the Vadtal gadi temples. The Gujarat High Court agreed with the Nadiad court that Ajendraprasad is not the acharya but disagreed with the ruling that Ajendraprasad should be banned from entering Vadtal Gadi property. DNA India states, “The bench, however, did not restore his position as former acharya so as to enable him to enjoy the rights associated with the position, but he can visit the religious sites as a commoner.” From my understanding, in order for Ajendraprasad to become acharya, he would need a court ruling to reinstate him to the post, until that time Rakeshprasad is acharya. Harshmellow717 ( talk) 01:50, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
I made several edits in this section, mostly for clarity and to reduce redundancy. I also edited ‘Early Monasticism’ to give context for why Swaminarayan ordained paramhansas and removed details that I felt did not add clarity. Moksha88 ( talk) 18:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
I also reviewed a chapter that Williams co-authored with Paramtattvadas Swami entitled, “Swaminarayan and British Contacts in Gujarat in the 1820s,” published in Swaminarayan Hinduism which recounts a report of William Hodge Mill, a contemporary British official with the words of their report in quotes.“Sahajanand initiated paramhansas as a temporary accommodation to the persecutions, and he ceased to ordain persons to this highest status after his position was more secure and the British government was established in Gujarat.” (Williams 2018, 25).
“Both Kubersinh and Bhajananand explained that Swaminarayan followers did not ‘render railing for railing or evil for evil’. This meant that when others took advantage of their peaceful disposition by beating them violently, they were wholly dependent on the government for protection. But this was also a cause for concern as they described to Mill the ‘persecutions’ they suffered at the hands of the Gaekwar’s government, saying that they did not get support from the judges who claimed to be unable to adjudicate disputes between Vaishnavas. This need for protection against violence and injustice is further iterated in a petition sent from Swaminarayan himself in 1827 to Sir John Malcolm, governor of the Bombay Presidency.” (Paramtattvadas & Williams 2016, 65)
Shree Laxmi-Narayan Dev (Vadtal gadi) and Shree Nar-Narayan Dev (Ahmedabad gadi) are the ONLY TWO Gadis established by Lord Swaminarayan Himself. Lord Shree Swaminarayan manifested Himself at Chhapaiya, a small village, 20 kms. north of Ayodhya in U.P., on Monday, the ninth day of bright half or Chaitra of Samvat year 1837, 2nd April, 1781 at 10 Hrs. 10 Minutes at night.
It should be noted that the "Original Swaminarayan Sampraday" consists of ONLY TWO GADIS - Vadtal Gadi (Shree Laxmi-Narayan Dev gadi) and Ahmedabad Gadi (Shree Nar-Narayan Dev gadi).
The name Swaminarayan, as some try to suggest, does not indicate two names "Swami and Narayan." It is one whole full proper name of God Supreme. It means one who is omnipresent (Sarva Vyapak). In all objects, sentient (Chitt) including Aksharbrahmn, as well as non-sentient (Achit) ones are always pervaded by Him and are internally controlled by Him. Swaminarayan means one who is omnipotent (Sarva Antaryami). All objects, including Aksharbrahmn are subservient to Him. It means one who is omniscient (Sarvajna Sarvatantra Sivatantra). All objects, including Aksharbrahmn, derive power of thinking (Ichha Shakti), power of knowledge (Jyan Shakti) and power of action (Kriya Shakti) from Him. It means one who is (Ekmevadvitiya), one without a second. This meaning is explained in detail in Vachanamrut (No. 64 of Gadhada Chapter I) Desi samurai ( talk) 21:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
It is really sad to see how the content on this Wikipedia article is completely biased in the favor of baps, before 2019 this article included detailed information about every organization, breakaway groups as well as original philosophy of swaminarayan sect, no there is a lot of content which is biased and it also contradicts to the principles of original swaminarayan sampraday Desi samurai ( talk) 21:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
ThaNDNman224 ( talk) 03:20, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Moksha88 and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Systematic NPOV review needed in the BAPS topic area. I'm going to review the edits of the past year.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC) / update Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:48, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
I made a few changes today. It is no secret I am a bit more image focused so had kicked off an image discussion that ended based on consensus majority from a bunch of sock users. My reasoning for my changes:
Kbhatt22 ( talk) 16:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
1 - This change set is just removing the excess details promoting the one branch over the rest and simplifies it down. The section lists the various charity wings across the branches but then lists specific examples of only one. There is already a specific page for that charity group (that reads like a marketing brochure) so its a little excess here. Kbhatt22 ( talk) 19:38, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
For future inclusion: Hindu Sect Is Accused of Using Forced Labor to Build N.J. Temple, New York Times. See also diff, Talk:Swaminarayan Akshardham (North America)#Removed - 2021 forced labor controversy, and Talk:Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha#Worker Exploitation. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:59, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Shri Hari Prabodham created from the Split from Gunatit Samaj (The Yogi Divine Society).
Swami Prabodhjivan Das, founder of Shri Hari Prabodham in 2022. Vp4777 ( talk) 22:35, 6 July 2022 (UTC)