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Jay Swaminarayan to all,
Jai Swaminarayan to all devotees,
I would like to request all users who have an interest and knowledge of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya to add their input to this discussion. I have copied, pasted and edited sections and come up with a rough draft, which is nowhere near complete. However we could use it as a basis or an aid to re-structure the actual article. Rather than personal edits if we present ideas on the page and then if we come to a concensus then we can implement the changes. Your co-operation is much appreciated.
Haribhagat 12:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan Haribhagat
I think that’s a good point you have made about continues communication between all of us but what kinds of things or information do we need to improve the page if you can list out some sub headings maybe we can work on in it and also I have a question about the following quote “However, in the publication, Sri Hari nu Adbhut Varta, Adbhutanand Swami has written, "Maharaj introduced the holy names of Swami & Narayan," which lends to the belief of two entities embedded within the Swaminarayan mantra itself” Is this really justified?
Ek Satsangi
Jai Swaminarayan,
The quote in question is an edit by a BAPS devotee Moksha88. He is vandalising the page and trying to propagate his personal philosphy(BAPS) on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya page. I will be informing the admin users about his behaviour.
Haribhagat 14:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan guys
I must agree with Haribhagat on this its very unfair to state such quotations which are not justified and ones which propagate your BAPS faith also might I add its very unfair as well because there is noting like this quotation stated on the BAPS so why bring here without being discussed and also I have two questions for you Moksha88, with all respect given wherever due “why is there very little information about the origin, authenticity and believes of BAPS on the BAPS page? And second question is please explain to me your eplaination of the Vachanamrut - Gadhada First Prakhan 41? Thanks
Das No Das Raj - सनातन धर्म 15:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Jai Swaminarayan,
As for my edit, it was not right for me to "vandalize" on your page as you so stated. Raj, there's a brief origin section on the BAPS page, but it needs to be expanded. I will put that quote there then; by the way, that publication, Shri Hari nu Adbhut Varta, has been released by the Amdavad Gadi, so do read it when you get a chance.
Moksha88 19:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no cause for throwing around accusations of vandalism - there has been an equal edit-warring undertaken by both Moksha88 and Haribhagat, AFAIK. Let's just stick to discussing how best to improve the article. Sfacets 14:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Jai Swaminarayan,
With the Swaminarayan Sampradaya page now looking adequate enough, i would now like to request users to turn their attention to the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page. We must get a section on tha page which states that Bhagwan Swaminarayan set up a Sampradaya and the Key components of the Sampradaya(ie Murti, Acharyas, Shastras, Sant, Haribhaktos). At the moment it is lacking this information therefore making it incomplete. Now users of the BAPS sect are dead against this as it does not go to their liking, but we must make sure that the inclusion of this information is agreed. Remember the article should represent quality and accurate information which we should endeavour to provide. It does not need to be long but should explain the basics. I have challenged various users on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page and they seem to have backed down on the points which i make. I have also posted the same to Sfacets talk page and as of yet there has been no reply. If we could re-emphasise the point with the backing of a few users (Which requires you to register) then our proposal will have more effect. Let me know what you think.
Haribhagat 12:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
It had been decided some time back for the page Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday to be merged with Bhagwan Swaminarayan why are people going against this now please can this be done because the Acharya's section is very much to do with the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page so why are you now splitting it up??
It has now been decided (see discussion on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan article) to split it. Please do not add information already found there to this article, sign in and/or sign your comments. Thanks,
Sfacets
04:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Why does the Sfacets user keep changing this page to his benifit either he has a hidden which is he is a member of the BAPS group or he just does not like the Original Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday because this sampraday is all about Bhagwan Swaminarayan so why do you keep removing the info mation that was first placed on the Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday, than merged with Bhagwan Swaminarayan so if anything we should have a right on these writing because they were created by our devotees and unlike BAPS this is whom we are we preach about Bhagwan Swaminarayan full stop we do make our so called brand name bigger like the BAPS so please can you stop doing this.
Please read the discussion on Bhagwan Swaminarayan, here is an article for:
So what's the problem? Please sign your comments. Sfacets 10:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Sfacets, you're ignorance yet again prevails. Haribhagat on a number of occasions has put across his point(which you in fact have not replied back to on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page) Now let me re-iterate, Bhagwan Swaminarayan is the Swaminarayan Sampradaya he created it and he was the leader. He enforced that only this was his philosophy and those who did not follow that particular sect which he set up then they were to be regarded as outcastes(please read Shikshapatri slokh 207 - this is a book written by Bhagwan Swaminarayan). So why do you keep on ranting on about neutrality and all this other nonsense, it is clear that you have sided with moksha88(who is a staunch BAPS devotee and could not bear the fact that the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page was being written from the original scriptures of Swaminarayan rather than those of his own cult) You dont seem to know anything about Bhagwan Swaminarayan or his philosophy yet you seem to have taken the whole page/project upon yourself(supposedly to keep a NPOV) Yes Sfacets you are doing a great job you are portraying the page from one point of view and not actually including vital points and facts. Surely Wikipedias aim is to get quality and accurate information as opposed to biased and one sided information whom you seem to be siding with, perhaps because moksha88 begged you to do so. so you being the ever so knowledgeable person about Swaminarayan Bhagwan and his philosophy agreed and accepted everything moksha88 said) Great now show me the evidence? Back everything in that article with scriptural facts and point out the most vital instances in Bhagwan Swaminarayans life! Fact is Moksha88 a BAPS devotee will do it in his own way but will not give correct information yet the devotees of Swaminarayan Sampradaya set up by Swaminarayan Bhagwan will be able to give you accurate information backed up with scriptural evidence. Quite simple Swaminarayan Sampradaya was set up by Bhagwan Swaminarayan(an instance in his life - should be noted) also he set up Acharyas(an instance in his life - should be noted) Now if BAPS say if they talk about their sect why cant then all you have to say is, we are talking about Bhagwan Swaminarayans life. BAPS can have their little link at the bottom under see also but they do not appear anywhere in the life of Bhagwan Swaminarayan whereas Swaminarayan Sampradaya does. Quite simple dont you think Sfacets? Have a think about my comments, please do not gfet wound up by them. They are being made aggresively to make a point which at the moment seems to be unheard. Finally unsigned messages still can be answered/replied back to, unless you do not have a reply just like you did not have a reply for Haribhagats comments nor did any of the BAPS devotees! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.136.41 ( talk • contribs)
This is an Encyclopedia, and is not based on religious scripture, but fact (scriptural facts is an oxymoron). Neutrality is nonsense? Maybe to you, not to any other (serious) editor on Wikipedia. Stop attempting to get your POV across, thi isn't the place for that, may I suggest a forum where you can settle your "philosophical" squabbles. For now it is abundantly clear that the creation of three distinct articles is the most neutral and unbiased way to go about it. (how can you not see that?) - Maybe if you had joined in the discussion (which has been going on for the previous two months) instead of blindly attempting to assert your point of view, you would have been able to change things. But a consensus has been reached - and if you don't like it, explain clearly why you oppose the changes, without your whole "holier than thou" approach. I get that you believe that your path is the true path, and that you don't like BAPS. Fine! Frankly, I don't care. Either join the discussion with intelligible arguments, or go and find something else to do with your time. And for crying out loud, sign your name! Sfacets 23:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Look, I'm not too happy either that the BAPS link has to be on this page, but as long as the link to this article is on the BAPS page, the BAPS link will stay UNDETERRED. Moksha88 14:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan Moksha88
I'd like to ask you what you mean by that last comment because to me it sounded as if you don’t want to be associated with the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday which Bhagwan Swaminarayan created? This would look very odd for somebody whom calls himself a Swaminarayan Satsangi????
Raj - सनातन धर्म 20:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jai Swaminarayan
Moksha88, the feeling is mutual. Raj it would be pointless to discuss this point as moksha88 has made his views clear on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page. Forget about it and let us now concentrate on the task at hand, which is to improve the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article.
Haribhagat 15:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Please refrain from adding any "additional description" to the BAPS link on this page as well as the Original Sampraday link on the BAPS page. If you truly wish to avoid edit wars, like you stated in the other articles, then this would be the best route to accomplish that.
Moksha88 11:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Haribhagat, could you please provide sources proving your claims? Failing this, it will be removed as OR (original research). Sfacets 14:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Sfacets, yes i have a source, by the name of Raymond Brady Williams who wrote 'An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism' - ( http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Swaminarayan-Hinduism-Religion/dp/052165422X/sr=8-1/qid=1167676559/ref=sr_1_1/002-8895366-1552051?ie=UTF8&s=books)
I will paste a chunk from the book, chapter 2 - Growth, administration and schism (page 54).
"The split came when Swami Yagnapurush (AD 1865-1951), commonly called Shastri Maharaj , left Vadtal temple in 1906 and was expelled from the fellowship from the hastily called meeting of the sadhus. He left to establish his own group with a few ascetics and a small number of householders who supported him".
There are also other sections in this book which are commentries on past court cases between BAPS and Swaminarayan Sampradaya. The jist of it is BAPS saints go to preach at Swaminarayan Sampradaya temples and the Acharya files a case. He wins as he proves that BAPS have been ex-communicated and do not give allegiance to vadtal therefore they have no right to enter premises which belong to Swaminarayan Sampradaya.(page 57-58) (Appeal no.165 of 1940 in the court of the disctrict judge, kaira, at nadiad from decree in reg. civil suit no. 519 of 1936 of the court of the sub-judge Mr. P. B. Patel of borsad). The Judgement was given by District Judge, Mr. J.D. Kapadiya, who delivered his judgement on 29 November 1943.
Even BAPS devotees will admit that, Yagnapurush(Founder of BAPS) split from the Swaminarayan Sampradaya to set up BAPS. Granted he left of his own will but a meeting by the sect officials later reported that he had been officially excommunicated by the sect and any of his activities are to be considered to be the same, again BAPS devotees will not dispute this either.
Haribhagat 15:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good - but perhaps this information would be better on the main Bhagwan Swaminarayan article or in the BAPS article? There is no need to add a description to the see also link as such. Sfacets 15:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree, i did so in the past on the BAPS page but Moksha88 prevented me from doing so by reverting the article. If i am permitted i would like to go about editing the 3 articles - Bhagwan Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan Sampradaya and BAPS. I will only edit parts which need to be edited and will provide references at all times if needed. Also i have placed posts on your talk page about editing the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page, to add a section about the sect which Bhagwan Swaminarayan set up. I will be more than happy to provide references to save disputes regarding the issue. Let me know what you think.
Haribhagat 15:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The important distinction is that Shastriji Maharaj first left and was then later declared excommunicated by the Swaminarayan Sampraday. A section on the 'Origins of BAPS' is in the works which will have full citations.
Moksha88
00:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not feel tat a description is needed next to the link to the BAPS article, however there may be merit to including it in the BAPS article itself - including the sources, and insuring that the description is given in a NPOV manner. Sfacets 06:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not see the harm, it is stating the fact and how the actual sampradaya feels about the group. In my opinion, those who are interested in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya should know about this information. Either let it be as a link description or i could add a section to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article, as i cannot see users agreeing for that information to be placed on the BAPS page.
Haribhagat 13:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Haribhagat, you said that the link description shoudl stand as it describes "how the actual sampradaya feels about the group," but Wikipedia adheres to NPOV. Just as the link to this article on the BAPS page has no extra description for "clarification" and just as it is not separated with a space, the BAPS link should be left alone in a similar fashion.
Moksha88
03:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps i did not put it correctly, it may be how they feel but more importantly than that it is a fact. One which has been aceepted by the high court, so for that reason in context of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya i feel it should be mentioned. Now i am willing to leave it at that, but if you wish to pursue then i will remove the description and create a title heading. In which i will explain the differences and then i could add a similar section on the BAPS page as it directly applies, let me know what you think. With the link on the BAPS page, i was meaning to add a description but due to this petty editing war i thought i would wait until it calms down and then go about editing it.
Haribhagat 15:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The article currently contains one source. This is not acceptable, since it means that the vast majority of the article is Original research ( WP:OR). Sources should be supplied for any claim.
The context and terminology is ill-defined - some users may fnd this article confusing.
Please do not remove the templates. Sfacets 00:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan All
Hello guys nice to be back, I was away most of the time due me finishing my studies but anyway enough of that. I like how both the “Bhagwan Swaminarayan” page and “Swaminarayan Sampraday” pages are looking, I understand there are a few minor bits to work on as stated by SFacts, such there only being one reference but is that really a issue if so than please Sfacts state which parts are needing a reference and I do accept your second point of this page being a little confusing to a person whom has no knowledge of Bhagwan Swaminarayan or his Sampraday, so I will put forward this issue we will tackle it rest assure if there is anything else not up to your or anyone else’s satisfaction than feel free to state on this discussion board but under NO circumstances should you take it upon your selves to implement the changes you feel are needed.
sabha means assembly. and the sentence meant to say Swaminarayan introduce the "Swaminarayan" Mantra. Which is the word "Swami-Narayan" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.171.33 ( talk) 04:27, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
I have made pages for 6 Mandirs made by Lord Swaminarayan - Ahmedabad, Vadtal, Bhuj, Dholera, Junagadh and Gadhada and linked them to the Swaminarayan Sampraday page.I request all to help prepare these pages with all the info that they have - please contribute to these pages wherever possible. Swaminobhakt 10:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
This article already covers Swaminarayan faith.-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 04:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
They should not be merged. The faith consists of several groups. READ the faith article first. The Swaminarayan Sampraday is just a part of it Juthani1 t c s 16:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 13:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Pl. explain reason for current merge tag. Around The Globe सत्यमेव जयते 10:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Merge! Redheylin ( talk) 00:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
What does "now nivrut Acharya of the Ahmedabad gaadi" mean? What is nivrut and gaadi? Technical terms need to be linked or explained. -- AW ( talk) 14:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
"Nivrut" - "retired", changed. Ahmedabad Gadi - explained and link in the article earlier. Any further issues? Around The Globe सत्यमेव जयते 14:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I disagree with World's edits; Swaminaryan followers fundamentally differ from practically all Hindus in believing that He is the Supreme Being himself. Also his followers differ from practically all Vaishnavite schools in holding that Vishnu and Shiva are different aspects of the same supreme God, unlike Madhva of the Dvaita school and Chaitanya. This is significant and should be noted. Raj2004 ( talk) 01:19, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
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This should not be a standalone article, in my humble opinion, and can very well be part of the main article. First, we can start the "Criticism" section in the main article, and then if there is too much content, we can think of a separate article. Titodutta ( talk) 08:30, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
I agree, it should be merged. Apollo1203 ( talk) 12:14, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
In reviewing the criteria for page mergers, I suggest the following changes and invite everyone’s comments:
Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:22, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Closing the loop on the above discussion as consensus had been reached on the merger by merging the content from the criticism of swaminarayan sect article here. I inadvertently added it to the swaminarayan spiritual tradition page, not sure why there are 2 pages but it is now in the correct place. ThaNDNman224 ( talk) 12:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
![]() | The contents of the /info/en/?search=Talk:Criticism_of_Swaminarayan_sect page were merged into Swaminarayan Sampraday on 03-Nov-2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
In verifying the statements in this article, could you please list the page number referenced for this sentence, “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system”? I was looking in the chapter and couldn’t seem to find it. Moksha88 ( talk) 06:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Page numbers are missing for the citations from Kirin Narayan's book and a reference is needed for the claim "Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world. Apollo1203 ( talk) 13:03, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
As I was verifying the source, Chapter 6 (Sahajanand Swami's Approach to Caste), in the same reference used to cite “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system,” contains many statements that refute that Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system. For example: "[Sahajanand Swami's] principles of atma and Paramatama undergirded Sahajanand Swami's rejection of caste discrimination and distinction" (page 125). This is contradictory to what is being stated in this article. Apollo1203 ( talk) 13:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Removed the sentence ‘situation of women in the Swaminarayan sect’ due to lack of source and no mention in the body of the article. This violates policy WP:VERIFIABILITY. Treehugger8891 ( talk) 01:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Harshil169: I was able to find Kirin Narayan's book and realize your excerpts differed from what was in the text. I therefore edited it in accordance with WP:NOR, specifically WP:STICKTOSOURCE. In reviewing the actual context from which this assertion is cited, could you please clarify why including his opinion is not WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE based on the following, "In the Satyarth Prakash, first issued in 1875, Dayananda synthesized the views that he had delivered orally in lectures through north India. Sure enough, in this book I found the story that Swamiji had told, though in a very different form. The story appears in chapter 11, "A Refutation and Advocation of Indian Religions," which presents an unabashedly biased history of various sects within Hinduism. There are spirited exposes of the supposed logical absurdity in the mythology surrounding various deities; there are tirades against Gurus and sarcastic descriptions of the average ascetic's conduct. Many parts of the book are in dialogue form. When Swami Dayananda is asked about the Swami Narayan sect, he launches into a description of the founder's wiles." (141)? Thank you Moksha88 ( talk) 02:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Fringe views are generally related to history and science articles. They are not for someone's criticism of religious and political philosophy. If this is fringe view then report it to WP:FTN and then you will get to know what is FRINGE or what is not. Discuss issue here. I am pinging @ DBigXray, Winged Blades of Goric, Kautilya3, and Ms Sarah Welch: to know whether this opinion violates NPOV or fringe. -- Harshil want to talk? 04:52, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Harshil169:, how sarcastic dig by Morari Bapu qualify as serious criticism of Swaminarayan sect? Criticism is a scholarly study of a subject. Sarcastic dig is hardly qualify as criticism. - Nizil ( talk) 05:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Nizil Shah, His point was title Nilkanth is for his sect or lord, not for some other sect as they used in 19th century. This is same as Jews criticise the prophecy and use of term prophet for Muhammad whose time was 7th century and they have an old faith. Same for Christianity and their obligation of use of term 'prophet' for Muhammad. That's the reason why it took place. If you think this is inappropriate then you can refer articles of criticism of another religion. And still not convinced then let's seek third opinion of person or removing those lines from paragraph. -- Harshil want to talk? 02:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
How has he taken a dig? He was stating the truth that Mahadev is Nilkanth? Correct your facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sciho ( talk • contribs) 15:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Doesn't matter whether it is dig/praise/reality, it is unencyclopedic and not notable... A summary of scholarly criticism of this sect would be most welcome.] @ Harshil169:, hope it clarifies. I believe that the issue regarding Morari Bapu comment is now settled. Other discussion can be carried on. - Nizil ( talk) 05:56, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Harshil169 Please provide the exact quotes and translations used from the 2 Gujarati sources used and 1 Hindi source used on this page. Apollo1203 ( talk) 02:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
The section dedicated to Gandhi's criticism of the Swaminarayan sect has been removed for the following reasons:
1. The text is in violation of
WP:RP
WP:RS, as the text is purely from a primary source. Additionally, it violates
WP:NPOV as wording is biased as the source itself seems biased.
2. We can also turn to the
Swaminarayan page. Here it clearly states an alternative view of Gandhi's: "the work accomplished by Swaminarayan in Gujarat could not and would never have been achieved by the law.” (
https://www.baps.org/About-BAPS/TheFounder%E2%80%93BhagwanSwaminarayan/IntheirEyes%E2%80%A6.aspx). Scholars note close parallels between Gandhi's work and Swaminarayan's work related to non-violence, truth-telling, hygiene, temperance, and the uplift of masses. (Brady Williams, Raymond (2001). An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. Cambridge University Press. p. 173. ISBN 9780521654227.) Commenting on Gandhi's social work, N.A. Toothi "most of his thought, activities and even methods of most of the institutions which he has been building up and serving, have the flavor of Swaminarayanism, more than that of any other sect of Hindu Dharma." He however did not feel that Swaminarayan's values aligned perfectly with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. (Takashi Shinoda (2002). The other Gujarat. Popular Prakashan. p. 9. ISBN 978-81-7154-874-3. Retrieved 27 June 2009) and (Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. JSTOR 4379024).
If anyone feels against this, please discuss and we can come to a consensus on the topic.
Apollo1203 (
talk)
03:13, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Harshil169 - I have cited Williams, Toothi, Shinoda, and Hardiman regarding Gandhi's views as well. Whom are not part of the sect — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apollo1203 ( talk • contribs) 03:25, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Sure, I can do research into it. Also, I believe it should be a general consensus of what should remain or removed, it is not your page Harshil169 or your ultimate decision of what should remain or not. I would like to invite the others to comment on this topic as well. Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
It appears quite clear that scholars have also mentioned Gandhi's viewpoint on Swaminarayan. I do not deny that there is mention that Gandhi believed Swaminarayan's values did not align with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. I invite others to also comment and review the work on Gandhi and its notability for this page. Based on group consensus, we can determine if it should be removed or kept. Apollo1203 ( talk) 17:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
robbed us of our manliless; they made the people incapable of self-defence. [...] Do not mix up the Vaishnava tradition with the teaching of Vallabh and Swaminarayana. Vaishnavism is an age-old truth. I have come to see, what I did not so clearly before, that there is non¬violence in violence. This is the big change which has come about. I had not fully realized the duty of restraining a drunkard from doing evil, of killing a dog in agony or one infected with rabies. In all these instances, violence is in fact non-violence." Source pp. 32–33
Also, Harshil169's statement "Instead of focusing what Gandhi had said on Sahajananda, you quoted historian's opinion by equating it with Sahajananda's work which has nothing to do with his criticism and apology." is not clear to me, and I would appreciate it if he could clarify his point in more detail. Sacredsea ( talk) 18:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
In verifying this statement, “Swaminarayan was also criticized by his contemporaries because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world by being a Sannyasi,” I found this statement in Raymond Williams’s An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism, “'Followers believe that he was unaffected by any of these emotions or feelings. Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world” (81). I notice you are now referencing a Gujarati source. Can you please provide us an English translation of the reference and an explanation for why you changed the reference?
Also, this excerpt is taken out of context from William's book [WP:NPOV]. This section is part of a larger discussion of Swaminarayan’s teachings where God assumes a human body and human characteristics to accept the devotion of his followers. This is again addressed in this book, “There are many stories in which he received gifts or ate very fine food, not because he wanted them, but to satisfy the devotional needs of his followers” (19). Moksha88 ( talk) 01:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Raymond Williams' book is a reliable source. On page 89, it does state, "Sahajanand was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world"
. Either this exact quote with in-text attribution (see
WP:Plag on how to do this), or a reworded version is relevant and most welcome in the article. His response, and why he believed it was good, that follows in the Williams source must also be briefly summarized in this article, for NPOV. Please keep the focus on the Swaminarayan sect, rather than one individual. On large gifts, see pages 58-59, 110-111, 142-144, etc in the Williams source.
Ms Sarah Welch (
talk)
22:46, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
In referencing Swaminarayan’s view of the caste system from the book Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, Identity (Williams, Trivedi), it doesn’t adhere to
WP:NPOV. The sentence cited in this article is part of a broader discussion (which is disregarded) on how Swaminarayan opposed the caste system and this claim can be considered
cherrypicked. See below for excerpts from the same book (Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, Identity); if the group agrees, can it please be removed?
The above examples and excerpts clearly show a contradiction to what is written in this article and negates the claim that Swaminarayan supported the caste system. I invite all to review the excerpts posted and we can reach a consensus on improving this article to uphold Wikipedia's core pillars.
Apollo1203 (
talk)
03:55, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
However, after reading chapters 5 and 6 of the Swaminarayan Hinduism book from Oxford University Press, it is clear that the early criticism against the Swaminarayan community was not because Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system, but because Swaminarayan opposed it. The scholars who have written Ch.5 and Ch.6 have convincingly argued this with multiple references from multiple angles. In fact, they argue that some of the accommodations that Swaminarayan appears to make with regard to caste practices are to forestall the violent criticism that he faced due to his opposition to caste discrimination. I think this important aspect of early criticism of the Swaminarayan community may have been misunderstood in this article, and I have added a revised text in Apollo1203’s sandbox correcting that. The point about Swaminarayan being supportive of the caste system is a modern criticism coming from a modern scholar whose perspective is opposed by other modern scholars. I have also tried to incorporate this in my revised text. I have also tried to incorporate some of Apollo1203’s text into the revised text I have proposed. After reading Ch5 and Ch6, I have also included some of the context they have provided on Swaminarayan’s approach to caste in order to make this section balanced. It would be great if others can take a look and share their thoughts. /info/en/?search=User:Apollo1203/sandbox?section=1 Sacredsea ( talk) 18:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Can anyone access the research paper described over this piece.
Also see Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. ISSN 0012-9976.
There's a hell lot of criticism, per my initial crawls of relevant journals and all that. ∯WBG converse 06:39, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Harshil169:In reviewing Pramukh Swami Maharaj’s article history, these allegations were posted and subsequently removed in October 2014 on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP. I therefore think these allegations should be excluded based on WP:NOTSCANDAL which @ Ms Sarah Welch: referenced above in clarifying the exclusion of the Morari Bapu claims. Moksha88 ( talk) 05:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
@ThaNDNman224 please don't make changes without first reaching consensus. Moksha88 ( talk) 17:53, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
:@Harshil169 please stop reverting edits that are being made in good faith in maintaining NPOV for a criticism article. As you said, let's try to reach consensus. There is no reason for edit warring.
Moksha88 (
talk)
18:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
you folks are moving about; the page will either get sysop-protected or you two, blocked for slow-edit-warring. Please follow dispute resolution ladder. I will be taking a detailed look, soon enough .... ∯WBG converse 09:03, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I think the criticism regarding 'grandiose temples' is not notable enough to merit a place in this article. It is not validated as a criticism just because 'some Hindus' hold this belief/opinion (WP:NOTOPINION) as Sarah Welch has pointed out earlier. Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
Should criticism of this sect by Dayananda Saraswati, which he wrote in Satyarth Prakash, be included? -- Krishna's flute ( talk) 03:53, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Krishna’s flute: No. RfC isn’t for any expert but to give inputs which have not been discussed earlier. — Harshil want to talk? 14:38, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
All, I took some time to reflect on the topic at hand and some major issues that are on-going:
1. Conduct, specifically - WP:CIVILITY. The language used towards others and the comments are belittling (specifically @
Krishna’s flute: on edit count) and offensive (the repetitive use of the word 'cult'). I have used the RPA template to eliminate such offensive language. Additionally, this topic has been on-going between a few editors, however, @
Krishna’s flute: you did not engage with any of us and went straight to RFC, this could be perceived as WP:GAME. I should have not responded in the way I did as I reacted to the comments - I apologize for my reaction.
2. We should all review the WP:BRD-NOT in order to reach a consensus and close this discussion. To avoid the cycle of edits-reverts - I will past the text in question in my sandbox for us to discuss:
/info/en/?search=User:Apollo1203/sandbox. @
Harshil169: - I read into Undue/Fringe policies and you are correct on the approach to using such policies and would not validate the exclusion of the text “in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public. If you can prove a theory that few or none currently believe, Wikipedia is not the place to present such a proof.” Additionally, we can look at WP:BALASPS: "the weight a Wikipedia article gives to criticism of its subject should be proportionate to the overall weight of such criticisms in reliable sources on the subject of the article.”
I think we also need to prove the significance of Satyarth Prakash (WP:PROVEIT). Just because the content exists on the criticism pages you have mentioned, it does not mean we ignore Wikipedia policies for this page. We should address the content on the other pages as well to uphold the policy. We need secondary sources to put Dayanand Saraswati's criticism in context, currently, it is a Primary Source (WP:PRIMARY). The material we are posting does not support the article as encyclopedic, it is just dumping libelous material (WWIN:INDISCRIMINATE). For example, Krin Narayan's book (Storytellers, Saints, and Scoundrels), she clearly states that Dayanand Saraswati has given a "unabashedly biased history of various sects within Hinduism" (141). Let us discuss this topic and find a resolution.
Apollo1203 (
talk)
16:40, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
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For those interested in a Swaminarayan Sampraday User Box on their User page, add {{ User:UBX/ Swaminarayan Sampraday}}, to your User page.
Jay Swaminarayan to all,
Jai Swaminarayan to all devotees,
I would like to request all users who have an interest and knowledge of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya to add their input to this discussion. I have copied, pasted and edited sections and come up with a rough draft, which is nowhere near complete. However we could use it as a basis or an aid to re-structure the actual article. Rather than personal edits if we present ideas on the page and then if we come to a concensus then we can implement the changes. Your co-operation is much appreciated.
Haribhagat 12:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan Haribhagat
I think that’s a good point you have made about continues communication between all of us but what kinds of things or information do we need to improve the page if you can list out some sub headings maybe we can work on in it and also I have a question about the following quote “However, in the publication, Sri Hari nu Adbhut Varta, Adbhutanand Swami has written, "Maharaj introduced the holy names of Swami & Narayan," which lends to the belief of two entities embedded within the Swaminarayan mantra itself” Is this really justified?
Ek Satsangi
Jai Swaminarayan,
The quote in question is an edit by a BAPS devotee Moksha88. He is vandalising the page and trying to propagate his personal philosphy(BAPS) on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya page. I will be informing the admin users about his behaviour.
Haribhagat 14:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan guys
I must agree with Haribhagat on this its very unfair to state such quotations which are not justified and ones which propagate your BAPS faith also might I add its very unfair as well because there is noting like this quotation stated on the BAPS so why bring here without being discussed and also I have two questions for you Moksha88, with all respect given wherever due “why is there very little information about the origin, authenticity and believes of BAPS on the BAPS page? And second question is please explain to me your eplaination of the Vachanamrut - Gadhada First Prakhan 41? Thanks
Das No Das Raj - सनातन धर्म 15:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Jai Swaminarayan,
As for my edit, it was not right for me to "vandalize" on your page as you so stated. Raj, there's a brief origin section on the BAPS page, but it needs to be expanded. I will put that quote there then; by the way, that publication, Shri Hari nu Adbhut Varta, has been released by the Amdavad Gadi, so do read it when you get a chance.
Moksha88 19:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no cause for throwing around accusations of vandalism - there has been an equal edit-warring undertaken by both Moksha88 and Haribhagat, AFAIK. Let's just stick to discussing how best to improve the article. Sfacets 14:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Jai Swaminarayan,
With the Swaminarayan Sampradaya page now looking adequate enough, i would now like to request users to turn their attention to the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page. We must get a section on tha page which states that Bhagwan Swaminarayan set up a Sampradaya and the Key components of the Sampradaya(ie Murti, Acharyas, Shastras, Sant, Haribhaktos). At the moment it is lacking this information therefore making it incomplete. Now users of the BAPS sect are dead against this as it does not go to their liking, but we must make sure that the inclusion of this information is agreed. Remember the article should represent quality and accurate information which we should endeavour to provide. It does not need to be long but should explain the basics. I have challenged various users on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page and they seem to have backed down on the points which i make. I have also posted the same to Sfacets talk page and as of yet there has been no reply. If we could re-emphasise the point with the backing of a few users (Which requires you to register) then our proposal will have more effect. Let me know what you think.
Haribhagat 12:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
It had been decided some time back for the page Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday to be merged with Bhagwan Swaminarayan why are people going against this now please can this be done because the Acharya's section is very much to do with the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page so why are you now splitting it up??
It has now been decided (see discussion on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan article) to split it. Please do not add information already found there to this article, sign in and/or sign your comments. Thanks,
Sfacets
04:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Why does the Sfacets user keep changing this page to his benifit either he has a hidden which is he is a member of the BAPS group or he just does not like the Original Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday because this sampraday is all about Bhagwan Swaminarayan so why do you keep removing the info mation that was first placed on the Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday, than merged with Bhagwan Swaminarayan so if anything we should have a right on these writing because they were created by our devotees and unlike BAPS this is whom we are we preach about Bhagwan Swaminarayan full stop we do make our so called brand name bigger like the BAPS so please can you stop doing this.
Please read the discussion on Bhagwan Swaminarayan, here is an article for:
So what's the problem? Please sign your comments. Sfacets 10:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Sfacets, you're ignorance yet again prevails. Haribhagat on a number of occasions has put across his point(which you in fact have not replied back to on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page) Now let me re-iterate, Bhagwan Swaminarayan is the Swaminarayan Sampradaya he created it and he was the leader. He enforced that only this was his philosophy and those who did not follow that particular sect which he set up then they were to be regarded as outcastes(please read Shikshapatri slokh 207 - this is a book written by Bhagwan Swaminarayan). So why do you keep on ranting on about neutrality and all this other nonsense, it is clear that you have sided with moksha88(who is a staunch BAPS devotee and could not bear the fact that the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page was being written from the original scriptures of Swaminarayan rather than those of his own cult) You dont seem to know anything about Bhagwan Swaminarayan or his philosophy yet you seem to have taken the whole page/project upon yourself(supposedly to keep a NPOV) Yes Sfacets you are doing a great job you are portraying the page from one point of view and not actually including vital points and facts. Surely Wikipedias aim is to get quality and accurate information as opposed to biased and one sided information whom you seem to be siding with, perhaps because moksha88 begged you to do so. so you being the ever so knowledgeable person about Swaminarayan Bhagwan and his philosophy agreed and accepted everything moksha88 said) Great now show me the evidence? Back everything in that article with scriptural facts and point out the most vital instances in Bhagwan Swaminarayans life! Fact is Moksha88 a BAPS devotee will do it in his own way but will not give correct information yet the devotees of Swaminarayan Sampradaya set up by Swaminarayan Bhagwan will be able to give you accurate information backed up with scriptural evidence. Quite simple Swaminarayan Sampradaya was set up by Bhagwan Swaminarayan(an instance in his life - should be noted) also he set up Acharyas(an instance in his life - should be noted) Now if BAPS say if they talk about their sect why cant then all you have to say is, we are talking about Bhagwan Swaminarayans life. BAPS can have their little link at the bottom under see also but they do not appear anywhere in the life of Bhagwan Swaminarayan whereas Swaminarayan Sampradaya does. Quite simple dont you think Sfacets? Have a think about my comments, please do not gfet wound up by them. They are being made aggresively to make a point which at the moment seems to be unheard. Finally unsigned messages still can be answered/replied back to, unless you do not have a reply just like you did not have a reply for Haribhagats comments nor did any of the BAPS devotees! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.136.41 ( talk • contribs)
This is an Encyclopedia, and is not based on religious scripture, but fact (scriptural facts is an oxymoron). Neutrality is nonsense? Maybe to you, not to any other (serious) editor on Wikipedia. Stop attempting to get your POV across, thi isn't the place for that, may I suggest a forum where you can settle your "philosophical" squabbles. For now it is abundantly clear that the creation of three distinct articles is the most neutral and unbiased way to go about it. (how can you not see that?) - Maybe if you had joined in the discussion (which has been going on for the previous two months) instead of blindly attempting to assert your point of view, you would have been able to change things. But a consensus has been reached - and if you don't like it, explain clearly why you oppose the changes, without your whole "holier than thou" approach. I get that you believe that your path is the true path, and that you don't like BAPS. Fine! Frankly, I don't care. Either join the discussion with intelligible arguments, or go and find something else to do with your time. And for crying out loud, sign your name! Sfacets 23:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Look, I'm not too happy either that the BAPS link has to be on this page, but as long as the link to this article is on the BAPS page, the BAPS link will stay UNDETERRED. Moksha88 14:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan Moksha88
I'd like to ask you what you mean by that last comment because to me it sounded as if you don’t want to be associated with the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday which Bhagwan Swaminarayan created? This would look very odd for somebody whom calls himself a Swaminarayan Satsangi????
Raj - सनातन धर्म 20:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jai Swaminarayan
Moksha88, the feeling is mutual. Raj it would be pointless to discuss this point as moksha88 has made his views clear on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page. Forget about it and let us now concentrate on the task at hand, which is to improve the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article.
Haribhagat 15:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Please refrain from adding any "additional description" to the BAPS link on this page as well as the Original Sampraday link on the BAPS page. If you truly wish to avoid edit wars, like you stated in the other articles, then this would be the best route to accomplish that.
Moksha88 11:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Haribhagat, could you please provide sources proving your claims? Failing this, it will be removed as OR (original research). Sfacets 14:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Sfacets, yes i have a source, by the name of Raymond Brady Williams who wrote 'An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism' - ( http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Swaminarayan-Hinduism-Religion/dp/052165422X/sr=8-1/qid=1167676559/ref=sr_1_1/002-8895366-1552051?ie=UTF8&s=books)
I will paste a chunk from the book, chapter 2 - Growth, administration and schism (page 54).
"The split came when Swami Yagnapurush (AD 1865-1951), commonly called Shastri Maharaj , left Vadtal temple in 1906 and was expelled from the fellowship from the hastily called meeting of the sadhus. He left to establish his own group with a few ascetics and a small number of householders who supported him".
There are also other sections in this book which are commentries on past court cases between BAPS and Swaminarayan Sampradaya. The jist of it is BAPS saints go to preach at Swaminarayan Sampradaya temples and the Acharya files a case. He wins as he proves that BAPS have been ex-communicated and do not give allegiance to vadtal therefore they have no right to enter premises which belong to Swaminarayan Sampradaya.(page 57-58) (Appeal no.165 of 1940 in the court of the disctrict judge, kaira, at nadiad from decree in reg. civil suit no. 519 of 1936 of the court of the sub-judge Mr. P. B. Patel of borsad). The Judgement was given by District Judge, Mr. J.D. Kapadiya, who delivered his judgement on 29 November 1943.
Even BAPS devotees will admit that, Yagnapurush(Founder of BAPS) split from the Swaminarayan Sampradaya to set up BAPS. Granted he left of his own will but a meeting by the sect officials later reported that he had been officially excommunicated by the sect and any of his activities are to be considered to be the same, again BAPS devotees will not dispute this either.
Haribhagat 15:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good - but perhaps this information would be better on the main Bhagwan Swaminarayan article or in the BAPS article? There is no need to add a description to the see also link as such. Sfacets 15:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree, i did so in the past on the BAPS page but Moksha88 prevented me from doing so by reverting the article. If i am permitted i would like to go about editing the 3 articles - Bhagwan Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan Sampradaya and BAPS. I will only edit parts which need to be edited and will provide references at all times if needed. Also i have placed posts on your talk page about editing the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page, to add a section about the sect which Bhagwan Swaminarayan set up. I will be more than happy to provide references to save disputes regarding the issue. Let me know what you think.
Haribhagat 15:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The important distinction is that Shastriji Maharaj first left and was then later declared excommunicated by the Swaminarayan Sampraday. A section on the 'Origins of BAPS' is in the works which will have full citations.
Moksha88
00:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not feel tat a description is needed next to the link to the BAPS article, however there may be merit to including it in the BAPS article itself - including the sources, and insuring that the description is given in a NPOV manner. Sfacets 06:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not see the harm, it is stating the fact and how the actual sampradaya feels about the group. In my opinion, those who are interested in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya should know about this information. Either let it be as a link description or i could add a section to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article, as i cannot see users agreeing for that information to be placed on the BAPS page.
Haribhagat 13:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Haribhagat, you said that the link description shoudl stand as it describes "how the actual sampradaya feels about the group," but Wikipedia adheres to NPOV. Just as the link to this article on the BAPS page has no extra description for "clarification" and just as it is not separated with a space, the BAPS link should be left alone in a similar fashion.
Moksha88
03:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps i did not put it correctly, it may be how they feel but more importantly than that it is a fact. One which has been aceepted by the high court, so for that reason in context of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya i feel it should be mentioned. Now i am willing to leave it at that, but if you wish to pursue then i will remove the description and create a title heading. In which i will explain the differences and then i could add a similar section on the BAPS page as it directly applies, let me know what you think. With the link on the BAPS page, i was meaning to add a description but due to this petty editing war i thought i would wait until it calms down and then go about editing it.
Haribhagat 15:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The article currently contains one source. This is not acceptable, since it means that the vast majority of the article is Original research ( WP:OR). Sources should be supplied for any claim.
The context and terminology is ill-defined - some users may fnd this article confusing.
Please do not remove the templates. Sfacets 00:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan All
Hello guys nice to be back, I was away most of the time due me finishing my studies but anyway enough of that. I like how both the “Bhagwan Swaminarayan” page and “Swaminarayan Sampraday” pages are looking, I understand there are a few minor bits to work on as stated by SFacts, such there only being one reference but is that really a issue if so than please Sfacts state which parts are needing a reference and I do accept your second point of this page being a little confusing to a person whom has no knowledge of Bhagwan Swaminarayan or his Sampraday, so I will put forward this issue we will tackle it rest assure if there is anything else not up to your or anyone else’s satisfaction than feel free to state on this discussion board but under NO circumstances should you take it upon your selves to implement the changes you feel are needed.
sabha means assembly. and the sentence meant to say Swaminarayan introduce the "Swaminarayan" Mantra. Which is the word "Swami-Narayan" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.171.33 ( talk) 04:27, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
I have made pages for 6 Mandirs made by Lord Swaminarayan - Ahmedabad, Vadtal, Bhuj, Dholera, Junagadh and Gadhada and linked them to the Swaminarayan Sampraday page.I request all to help prepare these pages with all the info that they have - please contribute to these pages wherever possible. Swaminobhakt 10:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
This article already covers Swaminarayan faith.-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 04:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
They should not be merged. The faith consists of several groups. READ the faith article first. The Swaminarayan Sampraday is just a part of it Juthani1 t c s 16:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 13:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Pl. explain reason for current merge tag. Around The Globe सत्यमेव जयते 10:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Merge! Redheylin ( talk) 00:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
What does "now nivrut Acharya of the Ahmedabad gaadi" mean? What is nivrut and gaadi? Technical terms need to be linked or explained. -- AW ( talk) 14:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
"Nivrut" - "retired", changed. Ahmedabad Gadi - explained and link in the article earlier. Any further issues? Around The Globe सत्यमेव जयते 14:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I disagree with World's edits; Swaminaryan followers fundamentally differ from practically all Hindus in believing that He is the Supreme Being himself. Also his followers differ from practically all Vaishnavite schools in holding that Vishnu and Shiva are different aspects of the same supreme God, unlike Madhva of the Dvaita school and Chaitanya. This is significant and should be noted. Raj2004 ( talk) 01:19, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
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This should not be a standalone article, in my humble opinion, and can very well be part of the main article. First, we can start the "Criticism" section in the main article, and then if there is too much content, we can think of a separate article. Titodutta ( talk) 08:30, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
I agree, it should be merged. Apollo1203 ( talk) 12:14, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
In reviewing the criteria for page mergers, I suggest the following changes and invite everyone’s comments:
Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:22, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Closing the loop on the above discussion as consensus had been reached on the merger by merging the content from the criticism of swaminarayan sect article here. I inadvertently added it to the swaminarayan spiritual tradition page, not sure why there are 2 pages but it is now in the correct place. ThaNDNman224 ( talk) 12:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
![]() | The contents of the /info/en/?search=Talk:Criticism_of_Swaminarayan_sect page were merged into Swaminarayan Sampraday on 03-Nov-2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
In verifying the statements in this article, could you please list the page number referenced for this sentence, “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system”? I was looking in the chapter and couldn’t seem to find it. Moksha88 ( talk) 06:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Page numbers are missing for the citations from Kirin Narayan's book and a reference is needed for the claim "Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world. Apollo1203 ( talk) 13:03, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
As I was verifying the source, Chapter 6 (Sahajanand Swami's Approach to Caste), in the same reference used to cite “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system,” contains many statements that refute that Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system. For example: "[Sahajanand Swami's] principles of atma and Paramatama undergirded Sahajanand Swami's rejection of caste discrimination and distinction" (page 125). This is contradictory to what is being stated in this article. Apollo1203 ( talk) 13:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Removed the sentence ‘situation of women in the Swaminarayan sect’ due to lack of source and no mention in the body of the article. This violates policy WP:VERIFIABILITY. Treehugger8891 ( talk) 01:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Harshil169: I was able to find Kirin Narayan's book and realize your excerpts differed from what was in the text. I therefore edited it in accordance with WP:NOR, specifically WP:STICKTOSOURCE. In reviewing the actual context from which this assertion is cited, could you please clarify why including his opinion is not WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE based on the following, "In the Satyarth Prakash, first issued in 1875, Dayananda synthesized the views that he had delivered orally in lectures through north India. Sure enough, in this book I found the story that Swamiji had told, though in a very different form. The story appears in chapter 11, "A Refutation and Advocation of Indian Religions," which presents an unabashedly biased history of various sects within Hinduism. There are spirited exposes of the supposed logical absurdity in the mythology surrounding various deities; there are tirades against Gurus and sarcastic descriptions of the average ascetic's conduct. Many parts of the book are in dialogue form. When Swami Dayananda is asked about the Swami Narayan sect, he launches into a description of the founder's wiles." (141)? Thank you Moksha88 ( talk) 02:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Fringe views are generally related to history and science articles. They are not for someone's criticism of religious and political philosophy. If this is fringe view then report it to WP:FTN and then you will get to know what is FRINGE or what is not. Discuss issue here. I am pinging @ DBigXray, Winged Blades of Goric, Kautilya3, and Ms Sarah Welch: to know whether this opinion violates NPOV or fringe. -- Harshil want to talk? 04:52, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Harshil169:, how sarcastic dig by Morari Bapu qualify as serious criticism of Swaminarayan sect? Criticism is a scholarly study of a subject. Sarcastic dig is hardly qualify as criticism. - Nizil ( talk) 05:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Nizil Shah, His point was title Nilkanth is for his sect or lord, not for some other sect as they used in 19th century. This is same as Jews criticise the prophecy and use of term prophet for Muhammad whose time was 7th century and they have an old faith. Same for Christianity and their obligation of use of term 'prophet' for Muhammad. That's the reason why it took place. If you think this is inappropriate then you can refer articles of criticism of another religion. And still not convinced then let's seek third opinion of person or removing those lines from paragraph. -- Harshil want to talk? 02:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
How has he taken a dig? He was stating the truth that Mahadev is Nilkanth? Correct your facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sciho ( talk • contribs) 15:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Doesn't matter whether it is dig/praise/reality, it is unencyclopedic and not notable... A summary of scholarly criticism of this sect would be most welcome.] @ Harshil169:, hope it clarifies. I believe that the issue regarding Morari Bapu comment is now settled. Other discussion can be carried on. - Nizil ( talk) 05:56, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Harshil169 Please provide the exact quotes and translations used from the 2 Gujarati sources used and 1 Hindi source used on this page. Apollo1203 ( talk) 02:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
The section dedicated to Gandhi's criticism of the Swaminarayan sect has been removed for the following reasons:
1. The text is in violation of
WP:RP
WP:RS, as the text is purely from a primary source. Additionally, it violates
WP:NPOV as wording is biased as the source itself seems biased.
2. We can also turn to the
Swaminarayan page. Here it clearly states an alternative view of Gandhi's: "the work accomplished by Swaminarayan in Gujarat could not and would never have been achieved by the law.” (
https://www.baps.org/About-BAPS/TheFounder%E2%80%93BhagwanSwaminarayan/IntheirEyes%E2%80%A6.aspx). Scholars note close parallels between Gandhi's work and Swaminarayan's work related to non-violence, truth-telling, hygiene, temperance, and the uplift of masses. (Brady Williams, Raymond (2001). An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. Cambridge University Press. p. 173. ISBN 9780521654227.) Commenting on Gandhi's social work, N.A. Toothi "most of his thought, activities and even methods of most of the institutions which he has been building up and serving, have the flavor of Swaminarayanism, more than that of any other sect of Hindu Dharma." He however did not feel that Swaminarayan's values aligned perfectly with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. (Takashi Shinoda (2002). The other Gujarat. Popular Prakashan. p. 9. ISBN 978-81-7154-874-3. Retrieved 27 June 2009) and (Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. JSTOR 4379024).
If anyone feels against this, please discuss and we can come to a consensus on the topic.
Apollo1203 (
talk)
03:13, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Harshil169 - I have cited Williams, Toothi, Shinoda, and Hardiman regarding Gandhi's views as well. Whom are not part of the sect — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apollo1203 ( talk • contribs) 03:25, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Sure, I can do research into it. Also, I believe it should be a general consensus of what should remain or removed, it is not your page Harshil169 or your ultimate decision of what should remain or not. I would like to invite the others to comment on this topic as well. Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
It appears quite clear that scholars have also mentioned Gandhi's viewpoint on Swaminarayan. I do not deny that there is mention that Gandhi believed Swaminarayan's values did not align with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. I invite others to also comment and review the work on Gandhi and its notability for this page. Based on group consensus, we can determine if it should be removed or kept. Apollo1203 ( talk) 17:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
robbed us of our manliless; they made the people incapable of self-defence. [...] Do not mix up the Vaishnava tradition with the teaching of Vallabh and Swaminarayana. Vaishnavism is an age-old truth. I have come to see, what I did not so clearly before, that there is non¬violence in violence. This is the big change which has come about. I had not fully realized the duty of restraining a drunkard from doing evil, of killing a dog in agony or one infected with rabies. In all these instances, violence is in fact non-violence." Source pp. 32–33
Also, Harshil169's statement "Instead of focusing what Gandhi had said on Sahajananda, you quoted historian's opinion by equating it with Sahajananda's work which has nothing to do with his criticism and apology." is not clear to me, and I would appreciate it if he could clarify his point in more detail. Sacredsea ( talk) 18:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
In verifying this statement, “Swaminarayan was also criticized by his contemporaries because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world by being a Sannyasi,” I found this statement in Raymond Williams’s An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism, “'Followers believe that he was unaffected by any of these emotions or feelings. Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world” (81). I notice you are now referencing a Gujarati source. Can you please provide us an English translation of the reference and an explanation for why you changed the reference?
Also, this excerpt is taken out of context from William's book [WP:NPOV]. This section is part of a larger discussion of Swaminarayan’s teachings where God assumes a human body and human characteristics to accept the devotion of his followers. This is again addressed in this book, “There are many stories in which he received gifts or ate very fine food, not because he wanted them, but to satisfy the devotional needs of his followers” (19). Moksha88 ( talk) 01:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Raymond Williams' book is a reliable source. On page 89, it does state, "Sahajanand was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world"
. Either this exact quote with in-text attribution (see
WP:Plag on how to do this), or a reworded version is relevant and most welcome in the article. His response, and why he believed it was good, that follows in the Williams source must also be briefly summarized in this article, for NPOV. Please keep the focus on the Swaminarayan sect, rather than one individual. On large gifts, see pages 58-59, 110-111, 142-144, etc in the Williams source.
Ms Sarah Welch (
talk)
22:46, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
In referencing Swaminarayan’s view of the caste system from the book Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, Identity (Williams, Trivedi), it doesn’t adhere to
WP:NPOV. The sentence cited in this article is part of a broader discussion (which is disregarded) on how Swaminarayan opposed the caste system and this claim can be considered
cherrypicked. See below for excerpts from the same book (Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, Identity); if the group agrees, can it please be removed?
The above examples and excerpts clearly show a contradiction to what is written in this article and negates the claim that Swaminarayan supported the caste system. I invite all to review the excerpts posted and we can reach a consensus on improving this article to uphold Wikipedia's core pillars.
Apollo1203 (
talk)
03:55, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
However, after reading chapters 5 and 6 of the Swaminarayan Hinduism book from Oxford University Press, it is clear that the early criticism against the Swaminarayan community was not because Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system, but because Swaminarayan opposed it. The scholars who have written Ch.5 and Ch.6 have convincingly argued this with multiple references from multiple angles. In fact, they argue that some of the accommodations that Swaminarayan appears to make with regard to caste practices are to forestall the violent criticism that he faced due to his opposition to caste discrimination. I think this important aspect of early criticism of the Swaminarayan community may have been misunderstood in this article, and I have added a revised text in Apollo1203’s sandbox correcting that. The point about Swaminarayan being supportive of the caste system is a modern criticism coming from a modern scholar whose perspective is opposed by other modern scholars. I have also tried to incorporate this in my revised text. I have also tried to incorporate some of Apollo1203’s text into the revised text I have proposed. After reading Ch5 and Ch6, I have also included some of the context they have provided on Swaminarayan’s approach to caste in order to make this section balanced. It would be great if others can take a look and share their thoughts. /info/en/?search=User:Apollo1203/sandbox?section=1 Sacredsea ( talk) 18:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Can anyone access the research paper described over this piece.
Also see Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. ISSN 0012-9976.
There's a hell lot of criticism, per my initial crawls of relevant journals and all that. ∯WBG converse 06:39, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Harshil169:In reviewing Pramukh Swami Maharaj’s article history, these allegations were posted and subsequently removed in October 2014 on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP. I therefore think these allegations should be excluded based on WP:NOTSCANDAL which @ Ms Sarah Welch: referenced above in clarifying the exclusion of the Morari Bapu claims. Moksha88 ( talk) 05:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
@ThaNDNman224 please don't make changes without first reaching consensus. Moksha88 ( talk) 17:53, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
:@Harshil169 please stop reverting edits that are being made in good faith in maintaining NPOV for a criticism article. As you said, let's try to reach consensus. There is no reason for edit warring.
Moksha88 (
talk)
18:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
you folks are moving about; the page will either get sysop-protected or you two, blocked for slow-edit-warring. Please follow dispute resolution ladder. I will be taking a detailed look, soon enough .... ∯WBG converse 09:03, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I think the criticism regarding 'grandiose temples' is not notable enough to merit a place in this article. It is not validated as a criticism just because 'some Hindus' hold this belief/opinion (WP:NOTOPINION) as Sarah Welch has pointed out earlier. Apollo1203 ( talk) 03:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
Should criticism of this sect by Dayananda Saraswati, which he wrote in Satyarth Prakash, be included? -- Krishna's flute ( talk) 03:53, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Krishna’s flute: No. RfC isn’t for any expert but to give inputs which have not been discussed earlier. — Harshil want to talk? 14:38, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
All, I took some time to reflect on the topic at hand and some major issues that are on-going:
1. Conduct, specifically - WP:CIVILITY. The language used towards others and the comments are belittling (specifically @
Krishna’s flute: on edit count) and offensive (the repetitive use of the word 'cult'). I have used the RPA template to eliminate such offensive language. Additionally, this topic has been on-going between a few editors, however, @
Krishna’s flute: you did not engage with any of us and went straight to RFC, this could be perceived as WP:GAME. I should have not responded in the way I did as I reacted to the comments - I apologize for my reaction.
2. We should all review the WP:BRD-NOT in order to reach a consensus and close this discussion. To avoid the cycle of edits-reverts - I will past the text in question in my sandbox for us to discuss:
/info/en/?search=User:Apollo1203/sandbox. @
Harshil169: - I read into Undue/Fringe policies and you are correct on the approach to using such policies and would not validate the exclusion of the text “in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public. If you can prove a theory that few or none currently believe, Wikipedia is not the place to present such a proof.” Additionally, we can look at WP:BALASPS: "the weight a Wikipedia article gives to criticism of its subject should be proportionate to the overall weight of such criticisms in reliable sources on the subject of the article.”
I think we also need to prove the significance of Satyarth Prakash (WP:PROVEIT). Just because the content exists on the criticism pages you have mentioned, it does not mean we ignore Wikipedia policies for this page. We should address the content on the other pages as well to uphold the policy. We need secondary sources to put Dayanand Saraswati's criticism in context, currently, it is a Primary Source (WP:PRIMARY). The material we are posting does not support the article as encyclopedic, it is just dumping libelous material (WWIN:INDISCRIMINATE). For example, Krin Narayan's book (Storytellers, Saints, and Scoundrels), she clearly states that Dayanand Saraswati has given a "unabashedly biased history of various sects within Hinduism" (141). Let us discuss this topic and find a resolution.
Apollo1203 (
talk)
16:40, 26 November 2019 (UTC)