Swallow is part of WikiProject Birds, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative and easy-to-use ornithological resource. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page, where you can join the
discussion and see a list of open tasks. Please do not
substitute this template.BirdsWikipedia:WikiProject BirdsTemplate:WikiProject Birdsbird articles
Well, they're mentioned often in Monty Python and the Holy Grail... dunno if that's the sort of thing you're looking for, though.--
Deridolus06:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)reply
Greek mythology (see Edith Hamilton) includes the story of sisters Procne and Philomela. Philomela's tongue is cut out by Procne's abusive husband, Tereus. Procne kills she and Tereus's child. As Tereus chases them, the gods turn the sisters into birds. Procne becomes the nightingale, which sings the sad song. Philomela, who has no tongue, is turned into the swallow, which cannot sing, but only twitter.
These kinds of myth were common for other migratory birds too - the Maori thought that the
Long-tailed Cuckoo hibernated in the winter. It would be good to add this to the article, it's all about having the time, there is a lot that could be added to this article. Maybe I'll add this article to my lift of future family extensions.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk22:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)reply
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
I'm actually pretty curious about this, and I would presume that others would come to wikipedia for more information on the matter.
McKay19:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Not here, should be on the species' page. There is no reason to suppose that other swallows of different sizes and structure have the same aerodynmics.
jimfbleak05:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)reply
A. half the species articles don't exist (red links).
B. the swallow list is incomplete (I know there happens to be a "west african swallow", but don't know which genus they're in or I'd add them.
C, are you claiming that "African Swallow" and "European Swallow" are species of birds? My guess is no, but then would a seperate article be written about
African swallows and
European swallows (that don't reference
Monty Python and the Holy Grail). If so, is there enough information to create an encyclopedic article about the African swallows? My guess for this would also be "no", in which case the information belongs best here.
McKay05:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)reply
B The list is complete, "West African Swallow" must be a synomym or subspecies
C If they are not real species, I agree that the grail suggestion is most appropriate. If the data doesn't refer to real birds, what's the point? However, the source above identifies a plausible candidate for African Swallow, and European Swallow must surely be
Barn Swallowjimfbleak14:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)reply
I don't claim to really know anything on swallows, so I defer to your wisdom in this regard. The information might belong on the movie's page, but I think it should belong with swallows.
B The
source above references "Hirundo domicella" as the west african swallow, and that one isn't in the list. He does reference a couple sources that I'm not sure of their accuracy, but here they are anyway:
Chris & Tilde Stuart, Birds of Africa: From Seabirds to Seed-Eaters, MIT Press (1999)
G. L. Maclean, Roberts’ Birds of Southern Africa, John Voelcker Bird Book Fund, Cape Town, South Africa (1985)
C With your suggestion that
Barn Swallow is possibly the swallow referred to in Monty Python, You're probably right, but I am curious as to why you think that that is the one? Is it the most common kind of swallow in Europe? I did look at
that article, and that article does have an estimate for the swallows speed. That's good.
Maybe I'm really going out on a limb here, but is it a possiblity (even a remote one) that the members of Monty Python, instead of looking up in their reference books, just used "European" and "African" as makeshift official terms? I'm not saying that the jokes were seldome elaborate, but might it be possible that Monty Python just went cheap on the research? (Not that I'm eager to end this discussion — a great source of joy :-D). --
Swift03:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Oh, I will totally admit that this is a possibility, but the fact remains that people really do want to know the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow. Also, it seems in line with the text of the movie. "the swallow may fly south with the sun..." "What, a swallow carrying a coconut?" "it could be carried by an african swallow" "Oh, yeah, an african swallow maybe, but not a European swallow, that's my point." See, because Arthur said swallow, the guard just assumed the
Barn Swallow, the swallow known by "swallow" in Europe, or the European swallow. The other guard was thinking outside the box, and thought of the (biggest) swallow he could think of, the African Swallow. Or maybe he just meant Swallows that inhabit Africa (they might generally be bigger). Really, I don't know anything about swallows, but I do think that people will come looking for the answer to that question. It doesn't have to mention the movie at all, but I predict that readers will come. Take
Assyria. Another of the questions asked by the bridgekeeper, is "What is the capital of Assyria" the article on this nation-state lists the capitals that it has had. If we knew the time period during which the movie took place, we could determine what the capital should be based on that article.
McKay05:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)reply
(Re: Mckaysalisbury: If we knew the time period during which the movie took place, we could determine what the capital should be based on that article. Umm, if I recall correctly, the movie is set in 932 A.D., per that blackletter (typeface term, actually white on black background) introductory screen, but the various political entities known as Assyria were long since gone by then, so the bridge guard might as well have asked "What is the sum of three and eggplant?".
the guard just assumed. Erm. You do realize that these are fictional characters. And their dialogue is composed with humor, not logical or robust structure in mind! ;-)
As for the list of capitals which the Assyrian Empire has had; are you implying that they were put up to answer the bridgekeeper's question?! If you are simply pointing out the usefulness of such information, then I'd argue that it would be most useful to list the airspeed info on the
Monty Python and the Holy Grail article as the origin of this question is of (equal? more?) importance and interest. --
Swift19:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Yes, I realize that they are fictional characters, but their conversation is valid according to English. When someone mentions "swallows" when referring to birds, particularly in Europe, it is an ambiguous reference. They could mean the
Hirundinidae family, or they could mean the
barn swallow, the movie plays on this ambiguity.
No, Assyria should have the information on the capitals regardless of the movie, capitals are an integral part of an article on a nation-state. If someone really wanted to know the capital of Assyria, they should check the article on
Assyria. If someone wants to know the airspeed velocity of an (unladen) swallow, he should probably find that at
Swallow or
Airspeed velocities of various birds or
Effects of loads on the velocity of air flight or something like that. The articles on swallows seems the most natural place for this kind of information.
But that doesn't mean it should belong here. My question here is what "african swallow" means. This page mentions only one "african swallow" the South African Swallow, the
style article mentions two, the South African Swallow and the West African Swallow. Does such a species exist? Swift mentions that African and European may be made up, but "European Swallow"
is not anincorrect term? What does "African Swallow" typically mean? One species? a group?
McKay20:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Article rated per request
I gave this article a start rating. There is some information here, but a lot is still missing. The habitat section is currently just the nesting site - rather than anything else. I'm dubious that swallows hold territories (I'll check later), no information on taxonomy, relatives, worldwide distribution, migration, relationship with humans. Breeding information is currently in two separate places, and incomplete. Can I suggest a layout for family pages similar to that used by
albatross? (Vain, I know, since I wrote it, but its based on the layout used in HBW).
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk00:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Habitat (other than aerial) is difficult for the family as a whole, some are open country, some woodland, some always near water. Same migration, some do, some don't. Some of this is covered in the species accounts. I have Turner and Rose, Swallows and MartinsISBN0-7470-3205-5 Parameter error in {{
ISBN}}: checksum. if that helps.
jimfbleak06:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Yes, but it could be covered in broad strokes. Most familes are fairly diverse, and there are always exceptions. Writing family pages is really hard but something that needs to be tackled.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk07:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)reply
What's incubation?
In
Swallow#Breeding the sentence "Even in species where the male does not incubate the eggs the male may sit on them when the female is away to reduce heat loss." confuses me. Isn't sitting on the eggs to prevent heat loss incubation?
Thanks.
Saintrain (
talk)
20:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)reply
Heh. Yeah, that could be clearer. Incubation is imparting warmth to the eggs from the body, not just stopping heat loss. I'll think about how to fix that.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk23:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Old World and New World?
In
Swallow#Breeding there's talk of a "New world" and "Old World", as in the sentence "The mud-nesters are most common in the Old World, particularly Africa, whereas cavity-nesters are the rule in the New World.". Perhaps this is some lingo used when talking about birds' geography, because it's not a geographical description that I'm familiar with. Does any one know?
Peter sjoberg (
talk) 6:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
According to the MOS, using a word as word (such as mentioning how swallow and martin are defined in the lead) is supposed to be in italics rather than quotes...only this can be a headache in biology articles as italics get used for binomial names, genera etc. I'll leave it to
Sabine's Sunbird as to what he wants to do about it.....
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
14:22, 29 March 2017 (UTC)reply
White-naped xenopsaris snuck through FAC this way. If anyone seriously objects we can change it. We'll need to move that content out of the lead anyway, or at least cover it in the main as well as lead.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk00:56, 30 March 2017 (UTC)reply
Sheldon, Frederick H.; Whittingham, Linda A.; Moyle, Robert G.; Slikas, Beth; Winkler, David W. (April 2005). "Phylogeny of swallows (Aves: Hirundinidae) estimated from nuclear and mitochondrial DNA sequences". Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. 35 (1): 254–270.
doi:
10.1016/j.ympev.2004.11.008.
Swallows, together with martins, form a family of
passerine birds known as the Hirundinidae. They are found around the world on all continents, including occasionally in Antarctica. There are around 90 species of Hirundinidae, with the greatest diversity found in Africa, which is thought to be where they evolved as hole-nesters. For the most part swallows are
insectivorous, taking flying insects on the wing and using
foveae in their eyes to help track prey.
Birds in this family are known as ....swallows, ....martins or ....saw-wings. Saw-wings are a distinct genus, therefore are not swallows or martins, except in so far as they are hirundines. Psalidoprocne is a small genus, with members that are not well known and live far away from the main centres of the English language, and so are overlooked in many English language sources. But they are hirundines, and any description of the family that omits them is therefore incomplete and therefore flawed. And yet
Amakuru seems determined to prevent my attempts to include them in the descriptions of the family.
Kevin McE (
talk)
09:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)reply
They are a type of swallow. I get your point but many animals can have different names from their common name - roadrunners are types of cuckoos and scaup, eider, pochard, teal, gadwall and widgeon are all types of duck.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk00:47, 5 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Ericson, Per G.P.; Johansson, Ulf S. (October 2003). "Phylogeny of Passerida (Aves: Passeriformes) based on nuclear and mitochondrial sequence data". Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. 29 (1): 126–138.
doi:
10.1016/S1055-7903(03)00067-8.
Huber, Gernot H.; Turbek, Sheela P.; Bostwick, Kimberly S.; Safran, Rebecca J. (August 2016). "Comparative analysis reveals migratory swallows (Hirundinidae) have less pointed wings than residents". Biological Journal of the Linnean Society.
doi:
10.1111/bij.12875.
Hasegawa, Masaru; Arai, Emi (17 March 2017). "Egg size decreases with increasing female tail fork depth in family Hirundinidae". Evolutionary Ecology. 31 (4): 559–569.
doi:
10.1007/s10682-017-9895-2.
The "Taxonomy and systematics" sectiion, the second paragraph, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentence: The words "core groups" are used, then "core martins", and basal, including "The saw-wings are the most basal of the three...", and "the more basal saw-wings...". Without any linking the average reader would likely have to go off-wiki to get any understanding. Of course, if by any chance one discovers
Basal (phylogenetics), the article riddled with "citation needed" tags, I am not sure that is the greatest of ideas. If one reads far enough one may see (1st sentence, 3rd paragraph in the "Usage" section), "Despite the ubiquity of the usage of basal,
systematists try to avoid its usage because its application to extant groups is unnecessary and misleading."
Swallow is part of WikiProject Birds, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative and easy-to-use ornithological resource. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page, where you can join the
discussion and see a list of open tasks. Please do not
substitute this template.BirdsWikipedia:WikiProject BirdsTemplate:WikiProject Birdsbird articles
Well, they're mentioned often in Monty Python and the Holy Grail... dunno if that's the sort of thing you're looking for, though.--
Deridolus06:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)reply
Greek mythology (see Edith Hamilton) includes the story of sisters Procne and Philomela. Philomela's tongue is cut out by Procne's abusive husband, Tereus. Procne kills she and Tereus's child. As Tereus chases them, the gods turn the sisters into birds. Procne becomes the nightingale, which sings the sad song. Philomela, who has no tongue, is turned into the swallow, which cannot sing, but only twitter.
These kinds of myth were common for other migratory birds too - the Maori thought that the
Long-tailed Cuckoo hibernated in the winter. It would be good to add this to the article, it's all about having the time, there is a lot that could be added to this article. Maybe I'll add this article to my lift of future family extensions.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk22:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)reply
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
I'm actually pretty curious about this, and I would presume that others would come to wikipedia for more information on the matter.
McKay19:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Not here, should be on the species' page. There is no reason to suppose that other swallows of different sizes and structure have the same aerodynmics.
jimfbleak05:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)reply
A. half the species articles don't exist (red links).
B. the swallow list is incomplete (I know there happens to be a "west african swallow", but don't know which genus they're in or I'd add them.
C, are you claiming that "African Swallow" and "European Swallow" are species of birds? My guess is no, but then would a seperate article be written about
African swallows and
European swallows (that don't reference
Monty Python and the Holy Grail). If so, is there enough information to create an encyclopedic article about the African swallows? My guess for this would also be "no", in which case the information belongs best here.
McKay05:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)reply
B The list is complete, "West African Swallow" must be a synomym or subspecies
C If they are not real species, I agree that the grail suggestion is most appropriate. If the data doesn't refer to real birds, what's the point? However, the source above identifies a plausible candidate for African Swallow, and European Swallow must surely be
Barn Swallowjimfbleak14:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)reply
I don't claim to really know anything on swallows, so I defer to your wisdom in this regard. The information might belong on the movie's page, but I think it should belong with swallows.
B The
source above references "Hirundo domicella" as the west african swallow, and that one isn't in the list. He does reference a couple sources that I'm not sure of their accuracy, but here they are anyway:
Chris & Tilde Stuart, Birds of Africa: From Seabirds to Seed-Eaters, MIT Press (1999)
G. L. Maclean, Roberts’ Birds of Southern Africa, John Voelcker Bird Book Fund, Cape Town, South Africa (1985)
C With your suggestion that
Barn Swallow is possibly the swallow referred to in Monty Python, You're probably right, but I am curious as to why you think that that is the one? Is it the most common kind of swallow in Europe? I did look at
that article, and that article does have an estimate for the swallows speed. That's good.
Maybe I'm really going out on a limb here, but is it a possiblity (even a remote one) that the members of Monty Python, instead of looking up in their reference books, just used "European" and "African" as makeshift official terms? I'm not saying that the jokes were seldome elaborate, but might it be possible that Monty Python just went cheap on the research? (Not that I'm eager to end this discussion — a great source of joy :-D). --
Swift03:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Oh, I will totally admit that this is a possibility, but the fact remains that people really do want to know the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow. Also, it seems in line with the text of the movie. "the swallow may fly south with the sun..." "What, a swallow carrying a coconut?" "it could be carried by an african swallow" "Oh, yeah, an african swallow maybe, but not a European swallow, that's my point." See, because Arthur said swallow, the guard just assumed the
Barn Swallow, the swallow known by "swallow" in Europe, or the European swallow. The other guard was thinking outside the box, and thought of the (biggest) swallow he could think of, the African Swallow. Or maybe he just meant Swallows that inhabit Africa (they might generally be bigger). Really, I don't know anything about swallows, but I do think that people will come looking for the answer to that question. It doesn't have to mention the movie at all, but I predict that readers will come. Take
Assyria. Another of the questions asked by the bridgekeeper, is "What is the capital of Assyria" the article on this nation-state lists the capitals that it has had. If we knew the time period during which the movie took place, we could determine what the capital should be based on that article.
McKay05:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)reply
(Re: Mckaysalisbury: If we knew the time period during which the movie took place, we could determine what the capital should be based on that article. Umm, if I recall correctly, the movie is set in 932 A.D., per that blackletter (typeface term, actually white on black background) introductory screen, but the various political entities known as Assyria were long since gone by then, so the bridge guard might as well have asked "What is the sum of three and eggplant?".
the guard just assumed. Erm. You do realize that these are fictional characters. And their dialogue is composed with humor, not logical or robust structure in mind! ;-)
As for the list of capitals which the Assyrian Empire has had; are you implying that they were put up to answer the bridgekeeper's question?! If you are simply pointing out the usefulness of such information, then I'd argue that it would be most useful to list the airspeed info on the
Monty Python and the Holy Grail article as the origin of this question is of (equal? more?) importance and interest. --
Swift19:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Yes, I realize that they are fictional characters, but their conversation is valid according to English. When someone mentions "swallows" when referring to birds, particularly in Europe, it is an ambiguous reference. They could mean the
Hirundinidae family, or they could mean the
barn swallow, the movie plays on this ambiguity.
No, Assyria should have the information on the capitals regardless of the movie, capitals are an integral part of an article on a nation-state. If someone really wanted to know the capital of Assyria, they should check the article on
Assyria. If someone wants to know the airspeed velocity of an (unladen) swallow, he should probably find that at
Swallow or
Airspeed velocities of various birds or
Effects of loads on the velocity of air flight or something like that. The articles on swallows seems the most natural place for this kind of information.
But that doesn't mean it should belong here. My question here is what "african swallow" means. This page mentions only one "african swallow" the South African Swallow, the
style article mentions two, the South African Swallow and the West African Swallow. Does such a species exist? Swift mentions that African and European may be made up, but "European Swallow"
is not anincorrect term? What does "African Swallow" typically mean? One species? a group?
McKay20:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Article rated per request
I gave this article a start rating. There is some information here, but a lot is still missing. The habitat section is currently just the nesting site - rather than anything else. I'm dubious that swallows hold territories (I'll check later), no information on taxonomy, relatives, worldwide distribution, migration, relationship with humans. Breeding information is currently in two separate places, and incomplete. Can I suggest a layout for family pages similar to that used by
albatross? (Vain, I know, since I wrote it, but its based on the layout used in HBW).
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk00:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Habitat (other than aerial) is difficult for the family as a whole, some are open country, some woodland, some always near water. Same migration, some do, some don't. Some of this is covered in the species accounts. I have Turner and Rose, Swallows and MartinsISBN0-7470-3205-5 Parameter error in {{
ISBN}}: checksum. if that helps.
jimfbleak06:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Yes, but it could be covered in broad strokes. Most familes are fairly diverse, and there are always exceptions. Writing family pages is really hard but something that needs to be tackled.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk07:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)reply
What's incubation?
In
Swallow#Breeding the sentence "Even in species where the male does not incubate the eggs the male may sit on them when the female is away to reduce heat loss." confuses me. Isn't sitting on the eggs to prevent heat loss incubation?
Thanks.
Saintrain (
talk)
20:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)reply
Heh. Yeah, that could be clearer. Incubation is imparting warmth to the eggs from the body, not just stopping heat loss. I'll think about how to fix that.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk23:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Old World and New World?
In
Swallow#Breeding there's talk of a "New world" and "Old World", as in the sentence "The mud-nesters are most common in the Old World, particularly Africa, whereas cavity-nesters are the rule in the New World.". Perhaps this is some lingo used when talking about birds' geography, because it's not a geographical description that I'm familiar with. Does any one know?
Peter sjoberg (
talk) 6:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
According to the MOS, using a word as word (such as mentioning how swallow and martin are defined in the lead) is supposed to be in italics rather than quotes...only this can be a headache in biology articles as italics get used for binomial names, genera etc. I'll leave it to
Sabine's Sunbird as to what he wants to do about it.....
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
14:22, 29 March 2017 (UTC)reply
White-naped xenopsaris snuck through FAC this way. If anyone seriously objects we can change it. We'll need to move that content out of the lead anyway, or at least cover it in the main as well as lead.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk00:56, 30 March 2017 (UTC)reply
Sheldon, Frederick H.; Whittingham, Linda A.; Moyle, Robert G.; Slikas, Beth; Winkler, David W. (April 2005). "Phylogeny of swallows (Aves: Hirundinidae) estimated from nuclear and mitochondrial DNA sequences". Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. 35 (1): 254–270.
doi:
10.1016/j.ympev.2004.11.008.
Swallows, together with martins, form a family of
passerine birds known as the Hirundinidae. They are found around the world on all continents, including occasionally in Antarctica. There are around 90 species of Hirundinidae, with the greatest diversity found in Africa, which is thought to be where they evolved as hole-nesters. For the most part swallows are
insectivorous, taking flying insects on the wing and using
foveae in their eyes to help track prey.
Birds in this family are known as ....swallows, ....martins or ....saw-wings. Saw-wings are a distinct genus, therefore are not swallows or martins, except in so far as they are hirundines. Psalidoprocne is a small genus, with members that are not well known and live far away from the main centres of the English language, and so are overlooked in many English language sources. But they are hirundines, and any description of the family that omits them is therefore incomplete and therefore flawed. And yet
Amakuru seems determined to prevent my attempts to include them in the descriptions of the family.
Kevin McE (
talk)
09:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)reply
They are a type of swallow. I get your point but many animals can have different names from their common name - roadrunners are types of cuckoos and scaup, eider, pochard, teal, gadwall and widgeon are all types of duck.
Sabine's Sunbirdtalk00:47, 5 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Ericson, Per G.P.; Johansson, Ulf S. (October 2003). "Phylogeny of Passerida (Aves: Passeriformes) based on nuclear and mitochondrial sequence data". Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. 29 (1): 126–138.
doi:
10.1016/S1055-7903(03)00067-8.
Huber, Gernot H.; Turbek, Sheela P.; Bostwick, Kimberly S.; Safran, Rebecca J. (August 2016). "Comparative analysis reveals migratory swallows (Hirundinidae) have less pointed wings than residents". Biological Journal of the Linnean Society.
doi:
10.1111/bij.12875.
Hasegawa, Masaru; Arai, Emi (17 March 2017). "Egg size decreases with increasing female tail fork depth in family Hirundinidae". Evolutionary Ecology. 31 (4): 559–569.
doi:
10.1007/s10682-017-9895-2.
The "Taxonomy and systematics" sectiion, the second paragraph, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentence: The words "core groups" are used, then "core martins", and basal, including "The saw-wings are the most basal of the three...", and "the more basal saw-wings...". Without any linking the average reader would likely have to go off-wiki to get any understanding. Of course, if by any chance one discovers
Basal (phylogenetics), the article riddled with "citation needed" tags, I am not sure that is the greatest of ideas. If one reads far enough one may see (1st sentence, 3rd paragraph in the "Usage" section), "Despite the ubiquity of the usage of basal,
systematists try to avoid its usage because its application to extant groups is unnecessary and misleading."