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ISTM that the use of transclusion to add the entire contents of the renewable energy and nuclear power articles to this one is not a good way to go. I'd prefer we had just a summary and a link. That's what links are for! Andrewa 23:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, links should be used to expound on the subject over and beyond the text - but the text should stand on its own. I agree that full transclusion errors on the side of too much information, and I am proposing a modification of transclusion which would import only the Main section (with or without image(s)) which I think would be perfect for these kinds of Meta-articles. Benjamin Gatti
The transclusion is definitely, definitely not a good thing. Please don't do this. Link to them if you have to, with a short synopsis. Transcluding like this, at the very least, makes the pedia appear unprofessional when people go to those articles and find.. the same thing. Also, it requires use of the = header, which is frowned upon. -- Golbez 09:18, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
I've replaced the reason that nuclear is not renewable, which previously read:
Nuclear power which is excluded from the list of renewable energies because of its potential to be used as a weapon of mass destruction.
This is irrelevant to whether or not nuke (or anything else) is renewable. The reason nuke is not renewable is that it is dependent on the consumption of a finite resource. Andrewa 14:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
"is excluded from the list of renewable energies because in its current form (based on nuclear fission) it depends on the terrestrial supply of the nuclear fuels uranium and thorium which although large is finite.
The term is particularly preferred to renewable energy by proponents of nuclear energy, to highlight one of the claimed advantages of nuclear energy over fossil fuel as an energy source. Although some authorities such as Bernard Cohen have claimed that the supply of nuclear fuel is so large that nuclear energy should be regarded as renewable, this has not become common usage on either side of the nuclear debate. " Was removed.
I suggest it is safe to indicate that these terms mean what they say "By Convention" i can show state documents calling for Renewable energies which explicitly state that they do not include Nuclear energies, and I'm not sure that it is useful to argue the "wy" of it. If an editwar and another contended article on reasons for nuclear is needed here, then so be it. I propose that we not try to explain why. Benjamin Gatti
Here's a suggestion of how the first section should read (between the horizontal lines):
Sustainable energy sources are energy sources which are sustainable, that is, not expected to be depleted in a human timeframe.
Sustainable energy sources include:
The term is particularly preferred to renewable energy by proponents of nuclear energy, to highlight one of the claimed advantages of nuclear energy over fossil fuel as an energy source. Although some authorities such as Bernard Cohen have claimed that the supply of nuclear fuel is so large that nuclear energy should be regarded as renewable, this has not become common usage on either side of the nuclear debate. On the other extreme, others such as former President Jimmy Carter have claimed that nuclear energy is not sustainable, let alone renewable.
Personally, I wouldn't expand the list of renewable sources quite so much, but if other editors feel it adds balance I'll listen to that. That's what collaboration is for!
We still need a source to cite for the Jimmy Carter story, see above. This should go in the external links section. Andrewa 01:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the politics of the term are of interest and should be mentioned, in fact I hope this will expand from being a paragraph to a section, in time. The shift from the term renewable energy to the term sustainable energy has many aspects, and the inclusion of nuclear is just one of them. Of at least equal interest is the generational shift in the environmental movement of which it is part. Postmodern thought includes a shift away from ideology and towards pragmatism. A focus on sustainables rather than the more idealistic concept of renewables is part of this shift. This obviously relates to whether nuclear power is regarded as sustainable, but it also goes far deeper.
And, it explains why those resisting this shift prefer to think of it as just a movement to include nuclear energy, and to deny this deeper significance. If the term sustainable energy is regarded as by definition a synonym for renewable + nuclear, then any discussion as to whether nuclear is sustainable (or renewable for that matter) becomes nonsense. (Notice I've removed the and from the list.) So to define nuclear power to be sustainable is not a good move.
The challenge, as I said before, is to describe these politics without promoting a particular point of view. Andrewa 01:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Carters position is not so much ANTI-NUKE, as it is exceedingly cautious about the ramifications and potential of nuclear energy. There's a recent quote of his on the Nuclear power article or Price Anderson. I'll try to find it. The proposal left me unconvinced. I see no cite providing the reason Nuclear is excluded, and i very deeply suspect it is for reasons other than what you describe. Remeber greenpeace is the father of anti-nuclear sentiment. I believe the position was honed early when reactors were fairly unknown, and Nuclear war ie the cold war, and the interest in bilateral disarmament was very high. Nukes were at that time - the big scare, and quite frankly were paraded around in the streets of moscow like big phalic symbols of the dominant class. reducing all the pathos of that era into the rather autisticly sterile explaination that the lack or thorium was the reason is a stretch I am not likely to take without numerous authoritative citations. Benjamin Gatti
I found this:
"The Sustainability Principle: "No generation should deprive future generation of the opportunity for a quality of life comparable to its own." [1]
"When viewed from a large set of criteria, nuclear power shows a unique potential as a large scale sustainable energy source." OECD 2001."
[2]
Not sure who OECD is.
Some Google results: "Sustainable energy" 993,000 "Sustainable energy" nuclear 163,000 "Sustainable energy" wind 258,000 "Renewable energy" wind 2,520,000 "Renewable energy" nuclear 1,200,000
"Nuclear energy is the energy released when atoms are either split or joined together. A mineral called uranium is needed for this process. Heat energy and steam produced can drive an electricity generator in a power station, or provide direct mechanical power in a ship or submarine. At each stage of the process various types of radioactive waste are produced. This waste is poisonous and can cause harm to people and the environment coming into contact with it."
[3]
According to this EU page "sustainable energies" include "non-nuclear energies" and I see no mention of nuclear energy (except as a see also.) [4] This is beginning to look as though US sources might refer to nuclear as sustainable to a much larger extent than European centric publications. Benjamin Gatti
I don't know about America, but in Europe we usually don't talk of nuclear energy as a renewable energy source. It could be different in France, though, they seem have a rather positive image of nuclear energy. The perception of nuclear energy could be different of course in America and Europe. I want to add that you didn't mean the quoatation marks in your google hit comparison. I think the idea of comparing all the articles about sustainable energy with the number of articles about sustainable energy that mention nuclear energy is good, but it's not really possible in the way you did. I tried something else (I put the quotation marks as I write them):
Now this doesn't necessarily mean all of the hits for the last two searches all say nuclear energy is renewable. Many could just mention it saying it is not, e.g.
Maybe the next numbers are more impressive:
Many of the pages found with the last search term are actually stating something like "nuclear energy and renewable energy..." The high number might just be an artifact of the many hits for nuclear energy (33,500,000). Note that most pages about nuclear energy don't mention the word renewable: nuclear energy -renewable 28,400,000 (though they might just talk about some aspects other than renewability, about a sixth of the article mention it). A fifth of wind energy articles mention "renewable".
Ben T/ C 05:04, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
I've overhauled and expanded the article in what I hope is a neutral fashion. Mostly this was so that I could move renewable/sustainable energy material out of ITER, where it really didn't belong, but the edit kind of took on a life of its own. The article as I've left it makes a fair attempt at giving an overview of the options available, and the problems of each, while not duplicating content from renewable energy or making a pitch for or against any given solution. Enjoy. -- Christopher Thomas 09:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
"Sustainable energy sources are energy sources which are not expected to be depleted in a timeframe relevant to the human race, and which therefore contribute to the sustainability of all species. This concept is termed sustainability."
This article gets off on the wrong foot in the first sentence. There is no way to discuss whether nuclear is or is not sustainable energy if we start off with a bad definition.
SUSTAINABLE is not only concerned with whether the source will run out any time soon. I don't know of anyone concerned about running out of nuclear fuel. (We should be so lucky.) That is not the issue.
The Sustainability article has it right:
"Sustainability is a systemic concept, relating to the continuity of economic, social, institutional and environmental aspects of human society. It is intended to be a means of configuring civilization and human activity so that society, its members and its economies are able to meet their needs and express their greatest potential in the present, while preserving biodiversity and natural ecosystems, and planning and acting for the ability to maintain these ideals in a very long term. Sustainability affects every level of organization, from the local neighbourhood to the entire planet."
THAT is the issue - what are the long-term side-effects of using nuclear power? Is it appropriate? Is it wise? That is what the debate should be about.
I am not going to change the main article, because I sense that would be picking a fight. Someone braver will have to fix this mess.
It seems to me that only people who have already decided that any side-effects of using nuclear power are acceptable would be comfortable classifying it as Sustainable.
(Logically, Sustainable energy might NOT be a pure superset of Renewable energy. If a potential source were continuously replenished and in no danger of running out, it would be Renewable. But if using it had overwhelmingly bad side-effects on humans and life on earth, it would not be Sustainable.)
69.87.202.5 22:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I fear that the only pure NPOV way to deal with the differing views is to start the article by acknowledging that the meaning/definition of the term is disputed. Historically, nuclear has often been excluded by definition, due to concerns about side effects. Some claim nuclear should be included because there is not an issue with running out of fuel. And some think that Sustainable energy is concerned with all of the ways an energy source might or might not have long-term adverse impacts, so the sustainability of nuclear is subject to debate.
This claim is certainly not NPOV, and does not belong at the top of the article: "Fission power and fusion power power meet the definition of sustainability..."
Since the main controversy is over nuclear, if the opening was written in a very careful and vague way, this disagreement could be postponed until the nuclear section. 69.87.201.34 11:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Sustainability is not an absolute Yes/No matter. It asks the question, What are the potential adverse long-term impacts? It is a matter of degree, and depends on scale and the relationship we create with a technology or activity. If humans were fewer and used fossil fuels more judiciously, they could be an indefinitely sustainable energy source. But in light of our foolish short-sighted greed, we are lucky to be running out of easily accessible crude oil, since the side effects are so dire at the scale of our use. And we are threatened by the immense quantity of coal and other petrochemical sources available, if we are willing to wreak destruction on our environment at that scale.
Any apparently benign source could be abused. A geothermal source could be over-used and exhasted, or otherwise used foolishly and destructively. Usually the scale of use generate qualitative changes in side-effects; it is often difficult or impossible to fully anticipate the problems generated when something new is used on an immense scale.
Anyway, instead of arguing over whether something is or is not sustainable, we should be discussing the ways and degrees each thing might or might not be sustainable. In this regard, the main article is actually quite good right now in content; it is only the introductory material that is problematic. 69.87.202.224 12:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The main article has a peculiar limited focus on large centralized power generation, implicitly of electricity. There is almost no mention of direct uses of distributed sustainable energy, such as solar hot water or passive solar architecture or home-scale earth-connected heat pumps. No mention of the social/political issues related to centralized control (nuclear power) vs distributed generation (small-scale wind/solar/cogeneration/grid-connected hybrid autos at each residence/business). 69.87.202.224 13:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
SUSTAINABILITY is a broad concept, concerned with all potential long-term adverse problems. It is very much concerned with system issues, so a list of centralized power generation technologies is somewhat misleading. Due to social/political implications etc, any distributed power source could potentially be more sustainable than centralized power. I don't know that it deserves more than a passing mention, but I don't see it mentioned at all in the article currently. As a category, such structural issues deserve at least as much space as any of the specific technologies mentioned - certainly as much space as hypothetical sources such as solar chimnies! Single-family solar ovens are probably more practical/relevant... (Does "biofuel" include the traditional use of firewood?)
I don't see why this article should be conceptually limited to "an overview of the options available". It would make more sense for it to be an in-depth discussion of the SUSTAINABILITY or lack thereof, of such options. 69.87.201.177 01:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
After looking for something worth keeping from this edit, I ended up rolling back all of it. Problems with each of its changes are:
-- Christopher Thomas 16:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Despite a lengthy discussions, it seems a necessity to transfer here the material on nuclear sustainability form the Renewable energy article. Most of the pro-nuclear arguments are on sustainability rather that (more technical) definition of renewable energy. Political sustainability has to be taken into the play, as I did, provisionally. --- The ultimate argument for transferring the materiial is that Renewable energy article is too long. The nuclear material is transfered as-is and should be worked on. MGTom 14:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I tried to clarify the controversy regarding nuclear power and remove a few weasel words ( many, very few, severe etc ... ). If I'm not completely mistaken the main argument against considering nuclear power sustainable is the nuclear waste issue. Risks of accidents and weapon proliferation are common arguments against nuclear power, but I don't really think they have anything to do with its sustainability. I guess the main relevance of such arguments in this context is that they serve to make nuclear power controversial, which is part of the reason classifying it as something which is normally considered positive (i.e sustainability ) spurs controversy. However, I think it is a bit of a stretch to invent a concept of "political sustainability", is that even a term which is commonly used? If not then it is original research and shoudl be dropped.
Also that some countries have banned expansion of nuclear power seems to be only moderately relevant in regards to weather it is sustainable or not. If a country were to ban Wind power it doesn't make wind power non-sustainable, it simply means it is not an option in that particular country. Same with nuclear power.
I'd suggest we rewrite this section to focus on nuclear waste disposal and handling, as that appears to be the only argument against classifying nuclear power as sustainable that holds any weight. The other arguments, while interesting in the context of weather nuclear power is a good idea or not, don't actually deal with its sustainability. I also have to wonder about the introduction. What does "social" reasons refer to there? I'd say we drop it and leave "for political reasons" or perhaps replace it with "ideological". Essentially the entire section on political controversy about the classification could use a rewrite. As it stands it is more about the controversy of nuclear power rather than controversy surrounding its classification. 85.230.193.135 01:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest that (per President Carter) Breeder reactors are too dangerous to be considered Sustainable, leaving the availability of (safer) nuclear fuel to be somewhat limited. Benjamin Gatti
Ben T/ C 08:31, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
This article gives a false and negative impression of renewable energy technologies, mainly by pointing out the perceived "primary challenges" of each one, without any corresponding discussion of responses to each of these criticisms, and without any discussion of primary opportunities associated with renewable energy technologies. So this is not a neutral presentation. Johnfos 08:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
If there are so many "primary challenges" with renewables, how is this possible:
Or this: SEGS, Nevada Solar One
These are key commercial initiatives which are being taken today and that need to be focussed on here as part of a balanced presentation. These are the relevant projects that are paving the way to sustainable energy. So they must be discussed as part of a neutral presentation. Johnfos 22:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
So now the issue is one of economics and not of primary challenges? I'll say again that the primary challenges to renewables are over-stated in this article.
As for wind power, here are a few more facts: the installed wind generating capacity in Germany in 2006 was 20,621MW (18,000 turbines) (see Wind power in Germany) and Denmark gets 20% of its electricity from the wind (see Wind power in Denmark). Thirteen countries around the world now have over 1000 MW of wind generating capacity and more wind farms are being constructed in most of these countries. There are no major problems in making capacity predictions for a few years hence, based on existing construction and building approvals received. To the best of my knowledge no one has suggested that predictions made are for exponential growth. -- Johnfos 22:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I wrote the Wind power in Germany article and so am well aware of what is said there. I think that article achieves a nice balance, which is something that is missing here. -- Johnfos 01:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that the "Renewable energy sources" section be replaced with text from the Renewable energy commercialization article, which discusses three generations of renewable energy technologies. Johnfos 01:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
We're starting to go around in circles now... There is no point in my adding to the existing text in the "Renewable energy sources" section because the text which is already there is fundamentally flawed. The text there presents a one-sided view of renewables because it is focussing on so-called "primary challenges". The term "primary challenge" is used no fewer than ten times.
I can find no reference in the linked articles in the Renewable energy sources section to the "primary challenges" of renewables. (I can find several references to "pros and cons", and "advantages and disadvantages", but that is something altogether different to what is presented here.) And there are only two references cited in the Renewable energy sources section. So the continuing problem is one of a largely unsupported and one-sided view being presented. And that is why the POV tag must stay. -- Johnfos 07:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The proposal is that the text from the Renewable energy commercialization article be brought in and used as a starting point for discussion of renewables here. What I think could be valuable at this stage is for you to carefully go through the Renewable energy commercialization article and make any changes that you feel are needed. In particular, I would be grateful for an indication of any statements there that you feel have not been substantiated adequately, in which case you may wish to add {{ Fact}} tags where necessary. -- Johnfos 01:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The presentation as it currently stands absolutely violates WP:NPOV. First, whether pro or con, such things must be reliably sourced. A "pro and con" style presentation would be acceptable, but the current style is "con only". That is not. (On a side note, any URL ending in "blogspot.com" is not a reliable source. What would be needed most here would be, for example, citations from peer-reviewed science journals from scientists who have studied the matter.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification, Seraphimblade. I agree with what you say.
I think that a "pros and cons" type of presentation about renewables would be adequate here, but it has been done several times before in different articles, and to do it properly would take up quite a lot of space (see, for example, Energy development).
But, most importantly, I don't think it is the most appropriate presentation for this article, given that our topic is Sustainable energy. Sustainablity (an ability to continue something indefinitely) involves a future orientation and so we should be forward-thinking in our approach. (This is why I think it is quite appropriate to devote considerable space in this article to Nuclear fusion power, even though it is still experimental and (as I understand it) a commercial fusion power station could not be expected for decades yet.)
So I would like to suggest that we use the text from the Renewable energy commercialization article to replace the existing "Renewable energy sources" section. This would provide a temporal perspective on three generations of renewables and would be a good starting point to help us move on, and the text could be edited as required. -- Johnfos 01:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I am confused on why the section "political sustainability of nuclear power" exists. I believe sustainability should be (as this article states) "sources which are not expected to be depleted in a timeframe relevant to the human race". Sustainability should not have anything to do with being "favorable or unfavorable", or how "politically popular or unpopular" it is. This section simply states that it's political sustainability is debatable, and then has 5 paragraphs of why some critics may find nuclear power "unfavorable". These arguments have nothing to do with how long this energy source can last (i.e. Is nuclear power sustainable?).
I believe this section should be substituted for information about the different ways nuclear power can be used, since some ways are much more sustainable than others. Ajnosek 23:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm unable to find the original publication cited as reference number 5: "^ "Hydropower-Internalised Costs and Externalised Benefits"; Frans H. Koch; International Energy Agency (IEA)-Implementing Agreement for Hydropower Technologies and Programmes; Ottawa, Canada, 2000". The reference includes a link to another web page, http://www.nei.org/index.asp?catnum=2&catid=260, which also references the publication. Can the author verify the citation? Mateopucu 15:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the POV tag which I put on this article in March. Renewable energy commercialization has become a Good Article now, and (as suggested above) I've brought in some new material from it for the Renewable energy section here, ready for editing. -- Johnfos 01:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is the phrase about other species relevant? -- Masonfree40 ( talk) 12:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The title description states "Sustainable energy is the provision of energy that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs." A) who can see the future? B) Even if the future remains the same (e.g. energy demand) as today, nothing is sustainable indefinitely. Solar will die when the sun dies, and could be modified by global climate change. Geothermal will diminish when the earth cools and internal fission also dies out. There is no "end of life" model that is sustainable forever. In the case of Sustainable Energy, there is also a beginning - energy collection systems have a live-cycle engineering beginning of life which also consumes energy -mining and refining of resources, transport and maintenence to name a few. Any energy collection concept also has an end-of-life, a disposal phase which also consumes energy. Life-cycle engineering needs to be part of any model for sustainability. As cited in one definition, I'd restrict sustainability to within the average lifetime of human beings. Furthermore, I'd stick to the definition and not the solution, for the solution is not at all apparent. There is much controversy whether any of the proposed options truly meets the definition of "sustainable". To suggest an unproven solution here is not honest. -- 96.244.247.130 ( talk) 02:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
The article barely touches on Nuclear Fusion but what it says is mostly inaccurate. It says both Nuclear Fission and Fusion create nuclear waste. This is not true, the only by product of Nuclear Fusion in the best type of reaction is Helium. The only radioactive material is the Tritium which there is very little of in the reactor. So little that if it were all to escape (unlikely) it would simply dissipate in the atmosphere with no ill effects there is very little in the reactor like a few grams. The only other issue is that the materials of the reactor will become radioactive over time due to the bombardment of neutrons, sure this is a problem but I would not lump it into the same issue of nuclear waste as Nuclear Fission. This material is a different class of radioactivity which is due to neutron bombardment and not from the material being radioactive this means it will only be radioactive for like a 100 years instead of 1000 years and it is also low grade radioactivity. On top of that you would not have much of this material only a few tons every like ten years when you need to replace the material for maintence, so even though this is a con it isn't a very big one as we can store this material under hardwater until it is stable enough to dispose of. It is a small price to pay for a realistic energy source that can meet the worlds needs in a non green house gas producing manner. To deny this simply because it has the word Nuclear in its name is short sighted and shows you really don't care about the envrionment. You have to remember even though it is a nuclear process it is the complete opposite of Fission they aren't similar at all. The only downside to Fusion is that it would be very expensive and is hard as hell. But so was the concept of flight it doesn't mean we shouldn't invest in it and make it happen. Luckily people are smart and are investing in it because the people who makes decisions don't base them off inaccurate articles like this. www.iter.org for more information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rukaribe ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Contrast to General View
Something is wrong here. Nuclear is not considered to be sustainable by the general public.(look up all different sources like EU Sustainable Energy Campaign, major environmental organisations or organisations /networks who are calling themeself "sustainable energy" e.g., INFORSE.).
Sustainability contra Environmental catastrophe (Chernobyl)
If we look at what "sustainablility" is we cannot call an energy source sustainable when its use has a potential to make a environmental and health catastrophe for a part of the world. (reference Chernobyl catastrophe). This cannot be debated. The Chernobyl catastrophe is a fact.
Non-sustainable Use of Renewables
It should be also noted that not all renewable energy sources are concidered to be sustainable. There are also unsustainable use of renewable energy. Unefficient use of biomass, and big hydro power plants are among those which are often considered to be not "sustainable".
Biased - Needs Rewrite
I think part of the article got biased by nuclear lobbyist and the article needs to rewritten.
TollymoreLad ( talk) 03:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
The reason is the fact that the forces that bond the atomic nucleus are about a million, or ten million, times as strong as the forces binding the electrons to the nucleus. The nuclear energy is therefore millions of times as much as any chemical energy you can get, per ton of fuel.
I am NOT a "nuclear lobbyist", merely a person with some knowledge of chemistry, physics, and how to access the Internet.
The popularly so-called renewables are not in fact sustainable energy at the current human industrial rate of consumption.
In historical fact, biomass never has been sustainable, even when the world population was under one billion. That's why so many primeval forests, including the trees on Aku-Aku, no longer exist. But in order to eliminate coal burning, which emits carcinogens at a rate that dwarfs the average rate per gigawatt-hour of nuclear fission power, the only alternative is the fantastically enormous energy density of atomic nuclei which were created long before any fossil carbon was laid down.
The Integral Fast Reactor project,
[1]
which was foolishly cancelled in 1994 after about 30 years of scientifically fruitful operation, showed that fissile nuclides could be renewed at the same time as the reactor's stock of U-235 was being consumed, and in a manner that was not amenable to terrorist theft. The plutonium was recycled into fuel rods by machines in an area of radioactivity billions of times more deadly.than plutonium. It could even consume waste plutonium, of which there is more and more as sanity replaces the Cold War.
It was designed and proven to be immune to the very breakdown that caused the Chernobyl disaster, and that aggravated (probably far less than the news services implied) the gigantic, immense disasters of a combined earthquake and tsunami at Fukushima.
The proof was a test conducted a week before Chernobyl. The mechanism was simple. It depended upon the delicate balance of neutron flux and neutron escape that keeps a fission chain reaction going, and the fact that the spaces between the target fuel rods enlarge when the metallic structures holding them expand in response to excessive heat. Add to that thermally conductive fuel rods, and a liquid metal cooling system, and the reactor shuts down and cools itself by convection. The reactor under test was deprived, in successive tests, of primary cooling pump power, then of secondary cooling system operation. It quietly shut down on both tests,
The entire energy consumption of the USA is under 38 times what a mere 50 million pounds -- 25 thousand tons --of uranium oxide per annum has been producing for more than a decade. Note that the energy comes from an isotope that is present at seven parts per thousand of these 25 thousand tons, and that the present usage of the uranium scarcely gets to consume a quarter of that. So if we could use all of the uranium by using a fast reactor, it would not be hard to supply ALL of our energy demands with a fraction even of that fairly trifling 25,000 tons. By contrast, (look up the EIA figures) it takes thousands of millions of tons of coal to provide half our electrical energy annually.
The statement that a catastrophe as grave as the Chernobyl incident excludes a technology from consideration, could be applied to the use of motor cars, which annually kill tens of thousands of people in the USA, and a large proportion of them are cut off early in life. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
TollymoreLad (
talk •
contribs)
04:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Judit Szoleczky-- Judit Szoleczky ( talk) 17:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
You people are horrible, Nuclear is clearly sustainable to say it isnt because of a chance of a Nuclear disaster is such a bad argument its impossible to explain how you are wrong if you really believe that. This is because you are saying a small chance could make it bad for the environment even though that is true the technology is still sustainable. Not to mention the fact that modern Nuclear facilities are so unlikely to have a Nuclear disaster the fact you bring it up shows you are closed minded and ignoring common facts to push your hippy agenda. To argue Nuclear is not sustainable because of Uranium supplies is a better argument but still silly because there is plenty of Uranium its like saying Geothermal isn't sustainable because you could use up all the heat in a geothermal location. Yes this is true but you'd have to use it a lot for a long time so it is negligble and we don't consider that making it not sustainable. If you really care about the environment use your head, if you dismiss Nuclear you are being short sighted and closed minded. Do you really think we can power the world on Wind, Solar, Biomass, etc? No that's ridiculous and if that is your goal you will fail and we will continue to use coal. The fact is coal is far worse than any amount of Nuclear waste. It's just the hippies don't like the idea of using atoms and getting nuclear waste even though it isn't a big deal. When they have no real argument except their own exaggerated assumptions, it's as bad as a religious person not agreeing with stemcell research. So if you truly care about the environment you will understand nuclear is good and maybe we can rewrite this article to show that it is the only true answer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rukaribe ( talk • contribs) 21:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
As a medical physicist, I do not consider Nuclear Power to be a safe technology, given the experiences of Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and other radiation incidents. But it is not sustainable simply because it relies on dwindling resources of Uranium, which is extractable in only a few countries. Nuclear power is only used by countries which need to continue their supply of nuclear materials for weapons, and I think the article is very biased. As alleged in the preceeding biased comment, I am not a hippie or horrible either, it is nuclear proponents who are the closed minded. -AndyH- 80.6.174.187 ( talk) 21:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
BTW, hydroelectrical plants are ecologically harmful too, if you really put it this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.78.150.171 ( talk) 20:13, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Please help improve this article by expanding it. J. D. Redding 17:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Many problems with this article. To say the least, it is poorly organized and needs a lot of work. I'm very unclear about the distinction between First, Second, Third generation technologies in terms of possible factual errors and POV. TeH nOmInAtOr ( talk) 00:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
What about maintenance cost of "green" solar / wind etc.? Is there a point where the cost of maintaining vast amount of machinery out paces the advantage of using such a system. Example: In ten years we have to replace the bearings in 8000000 windmills. or Birds pooped on and dust collected on 100000 mi^2 of solar panels. As amount machinery increases so does the human cost of maintaining it. 12.106.237.2 ( talk) 14:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
"Sustainable" must consider the entire Life Cycle of a system. It takes energy or resources to design and develop a technology before it it deployed. For example, it usually requires diesel fuel to power tractors to plant and harvest corn, to build a plant to render it to ethanol, and there is loss of energy in conversion to enthanol. It there is further losses of energy or resources to maintain it while in operational phase (energy for people to drive to site to maintain the system, or deliver the energy to end users, or manufacture spare parts), and finally it consumes energy or resources to dispose of the technology at end-of-life. Economic factors of life-cycle engineering all needs to be factored into "sustainability". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.245.164.83 ( talk) 23:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
could blacklight, nuclear fusion be added to the list. Synthethic bacteria should also be added —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.14.197 ( talk) 07:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Except for Nuclear power which is polluting in producing Nuclear waste. Why not MERGE all Three catagorys of Sustainable ,Renewable and Green Energy? Also, no mention of the ongoing (since 2005 ref tesla Society) of the Global Energy Independence Day(Held on Jul.10th The Birthdate of great energy pioneer Nikola Tesla 1856-1943) to support,promte and encourage "CLEAN GREEN" RENEWABLE ENERGY!Thanks! IMPVictorianus ( talk) 02:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I dispute the entire first paragraph definition of sustainable energy. First of all, nothing is sustainable forever, and the first paragraph appears to promote a fantasy that there is such a thing as infinite sustainability. Everything has a life-cycle (cradle to grave). I believe the point should be taken that there are viable long-term energy resources that can greatly extend the useful and practical life of energy recovery systems. I emphasize the words "useful and practical". I await articles that show sufficent proof of this.-- 71.245.164.83 ( talk) 02:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Yaris redirected this article [7], but I have restored it. Obviously we don't want to lose all this sourced information that has been built up over the years. Johnfos ( talk) 02:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
“ | Support merger of Sustainable energy and Green energy. Irrespective of our differences about what the original merger suggestion was. We can take both "sustainable" and "green" to mean "environmentally-friendly" or "does less harm to the environment than the alternatives". "Renewable" means something different. "Sustainable" could be taken by some people to mean "renewable" but we can link to Renewable energy from the merged article. I propose that Green energy be the name of the merged article because then it is clearer that we don't mean renewable energy. It has been suggested that "sustainable" is somehow a more respectable term and that "green" is just a marketing term. I would disagree. The word green is a more firmly established short-hand for environmentally friendliness. Hence the numerous green parties advocating green politics. "Sustainable" is a very broad term which could mean environmentally-friendly and could mean many other things. | ” |
— Yaris678 ( talk) 09:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC), Talk:Green energy#Merge proposal |
I agree with Rlsheehan and Hamiltonstone that "sustainable" is a more encyclopedic and definable term and that "green" is just a fuzzy marketing term. I think it would be a very strange situation for Wikipedia not to have an article called Sustainable energy. When doing the merge please make sure that no sourced content is lost. There actually seems to be very little overlap between the two articles in terms of actual content, so it would really be a case of adding the Green energy material to the end of the this article. Then normal editing could sort out any rough edges. Johnfos ( talk) 20:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Renewable energy Sustainable energy the same? Think theres TWO articles Wikipedia on this.One Alternative Energy One Sustaianble maybe combine both? Theres a Sustainable enrgy "Day" Jul 10th Global Energy Indpendence Day for 'CLEAN GREEN ENERGY"! VICTORYISMOI ( talk) 16:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
These are entirely different forms of energy. Lumping them together is like lumping together coal and gas because they both involve getting energy from chemical reactions. Fission power has been around for decades. Fusion power doesn't exist yet. There should be a separate fission section and a fusion section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.67.221 ( talk) 20:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
TollymoreLad ( talk) 02:42, 5 November 2011 (UTC) The probable best-so-far fusion energy technology is the Tokamak [2] The difficulty about it is, that even the core of the Sun, at 1000 times the temperature of its surface, and many times the density of lead, has a lower density of energy production than the density of energy consumption of a bumblebee or even a human body. Strictly speaking, the Earth's radioactivity, the source of all geothermal and tectonic energy, is radioactive decay, and it is significantly different from what we call nuclear fission. [3] [4]
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Should we merge the Renewable energy page with this one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabefair ( talk • contribs) 21:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Globalizing the Energy Revolution; How to Really Win the Clean-Energy Race by Michael Levi, Elizabeth C. Economy, Shannon O'Neil, and Adam Segal Foreign Affairs November/December 2010 99.19.44.155 ( talk) 17:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
This is the banner of a related course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Canada_Education_Program/Courses/Environment_and_Society_-_Fall_2012_(Grant_Aylesworth) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yxiao2424 ( talk • contribs) 02:02, 6 November 2012 (UTC) If you have any advice about this article, please write down on this talk page or edit by yourself! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yxiao2424 ( talk • contribs) 00:14, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Sustainable energy's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "NREL":
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help)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:52, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Low-energy house was copied or moved into Sustainable energy with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Renewable energy in Germany was copied or moved into Sustainable energy with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Yxiao2424 - thus far, all of your edits constitute copy-pasting content, either from the public domain or other Wikipedia pages. Your last edit was reverted (should've been an AGF revert) as the content already exists and was properly segregated onto an appropriate page. There are guidelines on article size, and the content that should be included. Randomly copying related material to the primary category page from subpages isn't necessarily helpful, and such changes should be discussed and consensus established. A few general problems exist with the content you copied, including: discussion of Renewable energy, which is not the same as sustainable ( 1)( 2), improper formatting, and inclusion of content best left on subpages. More specifically, I noted a few other issues:
The low energy house content appears interesting - will comment more when I have time.-- E8 ( talk) 23:33, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I see. Thank you for your patient explaination.
Seriously, folks, the cleanest and most sustainably renewable technology is nuclear breeder technology, which can use 993 parts per thousand of the uranium that contains only 0.7% of itself as the fissile U-235. Fissile isotopes are renewable, and the waste when you don't throw away the uranium and plutonium is small and short lived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.45.41 ( talk) 07:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Please forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I noticed some issues with sections 5 & 7 of this article.
I hope my input is of assistance. ReveurGAM ( talk) 13:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Whoever added this in good faith does not appear to be aware that just because you use the carbon in coal stack CO2 emissions twice doesn't mean you really help the environment much at all. Synthetic fuels only make sense from a climate point of view if you get the CO2 from seawater or (less efficiently) the air, in every other respect however that the editor was right on the money, I have resurrected what they wrote in this regard, all if it makes economical, sustainable and climatic sense. This is what they wrote.-
The carbonic acid in seawater is in chemical equilibrium with atmospheric carbon dioxide. The United States Navy has done extensive work studying and scaling up the extraction of carbon from seawater. [5] [6] Work at the Palo Alto Research Center has improved substantially on the Navy processes, resulting in carbon extraction from seawater for about $50 per ton. [7] Carbon capture from ambient air is very much more costly, at between $600 and $1000 per ton. At present that is considered an impractical cost for fuel synthesis or carbon sequestration. [8] [9]
Commercial fuel synthesis companies suggest they can produce fuel for less than petroleum fuels when oil costs more than $55 per barrel. [10] The US Navy estimates that shipboard production of jet fuel from nuclear power would cost about $6 per gallon. While that was about twice the petroleum fuel cost in 2010, it is expected to be much less than the market price in less than five years if recent trends continue. Moreover, since the delivery of fuel to a carrier battle group costs about $8 per gallon, shipboard production is already much less expensive. [11] The Navy estimate that 100 megawatts can produce 41,000 gallons of fuel per day. [12]
Boundarylayer ( talk) 07:46, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Someone has removed the nuclear section, so I'm going to try to resurrect it. ReveurGAM ( talk) 08:16, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be the target of vandalism. I noticed a few days ago that the Energy Star section was also removed anonymously. Since the removal of the nuclear section was done anonymously as well, by a different IP, I have reverted it and added a brief note about Thorium. ReveurGAM ( talk) 08:30, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Take your pick -- Nigelj ( talk) 21:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
A report was published in 2011 by the World Energy Council in association with Oliver Wyman, entitled Policies for the future: 2011 Assessment of country energy and climate policies, which ranks country performance according to an energy sustainability index. [13] The best performers were Switzerland, Sweden and France. All produce electricity with from ~50% to 80% nuclear power in their electricity grid. No mention of (100% renewable) Iceland and no mention of Brazil either in the top three countries.
Due to a potential appearance of conflict of interest concerns [10] I have started a Request for Comments on engineering sustainable development. Tim AFS ( talk) 06:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
@ Johnfos: do you have any objections to replacing [11], [12], [13], and [14]? Tim AFS ( talk) 04:08, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Are there any reliable sources which actually say thorium fission is sustainable? There is already a paragraph about the debate as to whether fission can even be considered sustainable (obviously not, in my humble opinion) and thorium reactors are still very much experimental. Until they get in production and their are reliable sources saying they're sustainable the paragraph inserted in this edit should be removed. 63.228.180.122 ( talk) 21:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Renewable/sustainable?
I see no significant difference between this article and "Renewable energy" and if there is it certainly isn't clear. I would suggest merging the two. The other option is to open up this topic to include possibilities that will run out or do pollute, but are way more sustainable than the current open burning of fossil fuels. (fossil fuel/ carbon capture), (nuclear power/safe operation), (doubling or tripling the number of dams) could we have sustainable mean a little more yellow than green energy.
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
ISTM that the use of transclusion to add the entire contents of the renewable energy and nuclear power articles to this one is not a good way to go. I'd prefer we had just a summary and a link. That's what links are for! Andrewa 23:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, links should be used to expound on the subject over and beyond the text - but the text should stand on its own. I agree that full transclusion errors on the side of too much information, and I am proposing a modification of transclusion which would import only the Main section (with or without image(s)) which I think would be perfect for these kinds of Meta-articles. Benjamin Gatti
The transclusion is definitely, definitely not a good thing. Please don't do this. Link to them if you have to, with a short synopsis. Transcluding like this, at the very least, makes the pedia appear unprofessional when people go to those articles and find.. the same thing. Also, it requires use of the = header, which is frowned upon. -- Golbez 09:18, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
I've replaced the reason that nuclear is not renewable, which previously read:
Nuclear power which is excluded from the list of renewable energies because of its potential to be used as a weapon of mass destruction.
This is irrelevant to whether or not nuke (or anything else) is renewable. The reason nuke is not renewable is that it is dependent on the consumption of a finite resource. Andrewa 14:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
"is excluded from the list of renewable energies because in its current form (based on nuclear fission) it depends on the terrestrial supply of the nuclear fuels uranium and thorium which although large is finite.
The term is particularly preferred to renewable energy by proponents of nuclear energy, to highlight one of the claimed advantages of nuclear energy over fossil fuel as an energy source. Although some authorities such as Bernard Cohen have claimed that the supply of nuclear fuel is so large that nuclear energy should be regarded as renewable, this has not become common usage on either side of the nuclear debate. " Was removed.
I suggest it is safe to indicate that these terms mean what they say "By Convention" i can show state documents calling for Renewable energies which explicitly state that they do not include Nuclear energies, and I'm not sure that it is useful to argue the "wy" of it. If an editwar and another contended article on reasons for nuclear is needed here, then so be it. I propose that we not try to explain why. Benjamin Gatti
Here's a suggestion of how the first section should read (between the horizontal lines):
Sustainable energy sources are energy sources which are sustainable, that is, not expected to be depleted in a human timeframe.
Sustainable energy sources include:
The term is particularly preferred to renewable energy by proponents of nuclear energy, to highlight one of the claimed advantages of nuclear energy over fossil fuel as an energy source. Although some authorities such as Bernard Cohen have claimed that the supply of nuclear fuel is so large that nuclear energy should be regarded as renewable, this has not become common usage on either side of the nuclear debate. On the other extreme, others such as former President Jimmy Carter have claimed that nuclear energy is not sustainable, let alone renewable.
Personally, I wouldn't expand the list of renewable sources quite so much, but if other editors feel it adds balance I'll listen to that. That's what collaboration is for!
We still need a source to cite for the Jimmy Carter story, see above. This should go in the external links section. Andrewa 01:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the politics of the term are of interest and should be mentioned, in fact I hope this will expand from being a paragraph to a section, in time. The shift from the term renewable energy to the term sustainable energy has many aspects, and the inclusion of nuclear is just one of them. Of at least equal interest is the generational shift in the environmental movement of which it is part. Postmodern thought includes a shift away from ideology and towards pragmatism. A focus on sustainables rather than the more idealistic concept of renewables is part of this shift. This obviously relates to whether nuclear power is regarded as sustainable, but it also goes far deeper.
And, it explains why those resisting this shift prefer to think of it as just a movement to include nuclear energy, and to deny this deeper significance. If the term sustainable energy is regarded as by definition a synonym for renewable + nuclear, then any discussion as to whether nuclear is sustainable (or renewable for that matter) becomes nonsense. (Notice I've removed the and from the list.) So to define nuclear power to be sustainable is not a good move.
The challenge, as I said before, is to describe these politics without promoting a particular point of view. Andrewa 01:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Carters position is not so much ANTI-NUKE, as it is exceedingly cautious about the ramifications and potential of nuclear energy. There's a recent quote of his on the Nuclear power article or Price Anderson. I'll try to find it. The proposal left me unconvinced. I see no cite providing the reason Nuclear is excluded, and i very deeply suspect it is for reasons other than what you describe. Remeber greenpeace is the father of anti-nuclear sentiment. I believe the position was honed early when reactors were fairly unknown, and Nuclear war ie the cold war, and the interest in bilateral disarmament was very high. Nukes were at that time - the big scare, and quite frankly were paraded around in the streets of moscow like big phalic symbols of the dominant class. reducing all the pathos of that era into the rather autisticly sterile explaination that the lack or thorium was the reason is a stretch I am not likely to take without numerous authoritative citations. Benjamin Gatti
I found this:
"The Sustainability Principle: "No generation should deprive future generation of the opportunity for a quality of life comparable to its own." [1]
"When viewed from a large set of criteria, nuclear power shows a unique potential as a large scale sustainable energy source." OECD 2001."
[2]
Not sure who OECD is.
Some Google results: "Sustainable energy" 993,000 "Sustainable energy" nuclear 163,000 "Sustainable energy" wind 258,000 "Renewable energy" wind 2,520,000 "Renewable energy" nuclear 1,200,000
"Nuclear energy is the energy released when atoms are either split or joined together. A mineral called uranium is needed for this process. Heat energy and steam produced can drive an electricity generator in a power station, or provide direct mechanical power in a ship or submarine. At each stage of the process various types of radioactive waste are produced. This waste is poisonous and can cause harm to people and the environment coming into contact with it."
[3]
According to this EU page "sustainable energies" include "non-nuclear energies" and I see no mention of nuclear energy (except as a see also.) [4] This is beginning to look as though US sources might refer to nuclear as sustainable to a much larger extent than European centric publications. Benjamin Gatti
I don't know about America, but in Europe we usually don't talk of nuclear energy as a renewable energy source. It could be different in France, though, they seem have a rather positive image of nuclear energy. The perception of nuclear energy could be different of course in America and Europe. I want to add that you didn't mean the quoatation marks in your google hit comparison. I think the idea of comparing all the articles about sustainable energy with the number of articles about sustainable energy that mention nuclear energy is good, but it's not really possible in the way you did. I tried something else (I put the quotation marks as I write them):
Now this doesn't necessarily mean all of the hits for the last two searches all say nuclear energy is renewable. Many could just mention it saying it is not, e.g.
Maybe the next numbers are more impressive:
Many of the pages found with the last search term are actually stating something like "nuclear energy and renewable energy..." The high number might just be an artifact of the many hits for nuclear energy (33,500,000). Note that most pages about nuclear energy don't mention the word renewable: nuclear energy -renewable 28,400,000 (though they might just talk about some aspects other than renewability, about a sixth of the article mention it). A fifth of wind energy articles mention "renewable".
Ben T/ C 05:04, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
I've overhauled and expanded the article in what I hope is a neutral fashion. Mostly this was so that I could move renewable/sustainable energy material out of ITER, where it really didn't belong, but the edit kind of took on a life of its own. The article as I've left it makes a fair attempt at giving an overview of the options available, and the problems of each, while not duplicating content from renewable energy or making a pitch for or against any given solution. Enjoy. -- Christopher Thomas 09:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
"Sustainable energy sources are energy sources which are not expected to be depleted in a timeframe relevant to the human race, and which therefore contribute to the sustainability of all species. This concept is termed sustainability."
This article gets off on the wrong foot in the first sentence. There is no way to discuss whether nuclear is or is not sustainable energy if we start off with a bad definition.
SUSTAINABLE is not only concerned with whether the source will run out any time soon. I don't know of anyone concerned about running out of nuclear fuel. (We should be so lucky.) That is not the issue.
The Sustainability article has it right:
"Sustainability is a systemic concept, relating to the continuity of economic, social, institutional and environmental aspects of human society. It is intended to be a means of configuring civilization and human activity so that society, its members and its economies are able to meet their needs and express their greatest potential in the present, while preserving biodiversity and natural ecosystems, and planning and acting for the ability to maintain these ideals in a very long term. Sustainability affects every level of organization, from the local neighbourhood to the entire planet."
THAT is the issue - what are the long-term side-effects of using nuclear power? Is it appropriate? Is it wise? That is what the debate should be about.
I am not going to change the main article, because I sense that would be picking a fight. Someone braver will have to fix this mess.
It seems to me that only people who have already decided that any side-effects of using nuclear power are acceptable would be comfortable classifying it as Sustainable.
(Logically, Sustainable energy might NOT be a pure superset of Renewable energy. If a potential source were continuously replenished and in no danger of running out, it would be Renewable. But if using it had overwhelmingly bad side-effects on humans and life on earth, it would not be Sustainable.)
69.87.202.5 22:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I fear that the only pure NPOV way to deal with the differing views is to start the article by acknowledging that the meaning/definition of the term is disputed. Historically, nuclear has often been excluded by definition, due to concerns about side effects. Some claim nuclear should be included because there is not an issue with running out of fuel. And some think that Sustainable energy is concerned with all of the ways an energy source might or might not have long-term adverse impacts, so the sustainability of nuclear is subject to debate.
This claim is certainly not NPOV, and does not belong at the top of the article: "Fission power and fusion power power meet the definition of sustainability..."
Since the main controversy is over nuclear, if the opening was written in a very careful and vague way, this disagreement could be postponed until the nuclear section. 69.87.201.34 11:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Sustainability is not an absolute Yes/No matter. It asks the question, What are the potential adverse long-term impacts? It is a matter of degree, and depends on scale and the relationship we create with a technology or activity. If humans were fewer and used fossil fuels more judiciously, they could be an indefinitely sustainable energy source. But in light of our foolish short-sighted greed, we are lucky to be running out of easily accessible crude oil, since the side effects are so dire at the scale of our use. And we are threatened by the immense quantity of coal and other petrochemical sources available, if we are willing to wreak destruction on our environment at that scale.
Any apparently benign source could be abused. A geothermal source could be over-used and exhasted, or otherwise used foolishly and destructively. Usually the scale of use generate qualitative changes in side-effects; it is often difficult or impossible to fully anticipate the problems generated when something new is used on an immense scale.
Anyway, instead of arguing over whether something is or is not sustainable, we should be discussing the ways and degrees each thing might or might not be sustainable. In this regard, the main article is actually quite good right now in content; it is only the introductory material that is problematic. 69.87.202.224 12:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The main article has a peculiar limited focus on large centralized power generation, implicitly of electricity. There is almost no mention of direct uses of distributed sustainable energy, such as solar hot water or passive solar architecture or home-scale earth-connected heat pumps. No mention of the social/political issues related to centralized control (nuclear power) vs distributed generation (small-scale wind/solar/cogeneration/grid-connected hybrid autos at each residence/business). 69.87.202.224 13:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
SUSTAINABILITY is a broad concept, concerned with all potential long-term adverse problems. It is very much concerned with system issues, so a list of centralized power generation technologies is somewhat misleading. Due to social/political implications etc, any distributed power source could potentially be more sustainable than centralized power. I don't know that it deserves more than a passing mention, but I don't see it mentioned at all in the article currently. As a category, such structural issues deserve at least as much space as any of the specific technologies mentioned - certainly as much space as hypothetical sources such as solar chimnies! Single-family solar ovens are probably more practical/relevant... (Does "biofuel" include the traditional use of firewood?)
I don't see why this article should be conceptually limited to "an overview of the options available". It would make more sense for it to be an in-depth discussion of the SUSTAINABILITY or lack thereof, of such options. 69.87.201.177 01:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
After looking for something worth keeping from this edit, I ended up rolling back all of it. Problems with each of its changes are:
-- Christopher Thomas 16:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Despite a lengthy discussions, it seems a necessity to transfer here the material on nuclear sustainability form the Renewable energy article. Most of the pro-nuclear arguments are on sustainability rather that (more technical) definition of renewable energy. Political sustainability has to be taken into the play, as I did, provisionally. --- The ultimate argument for transferring the materiial is that Renewable energy article is too long. The nuclear material is transfered as-is and should be worked on. MGTom 14:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I tried to clarify the controversy regarding nuclear power and remove a few weasel words ( many, very few, severe etc ... ). If I'm not completely mistaken the main argument against considering nuclear power sustainable is the nuclear waste issue. Risks of accidents and weapon proliferation are common arguments against nuclear power, but I don't really think they have anything to do with its sustainability. I guess the main relevance of such arguments in this context is that they serve to make nuclear power controversial, which is part of the reason classifying it as something which is normally considered positive (i.e sustainability ) spurs controversy. However, I think it is a bit of a stretch to invent a concept of "political sustainability", is that even a term which is commonly used? If not then it is original research and shoudl be dropped.
Also that some countries have banned expansion of nuclear power seems to be only moderately relevant in regards to weather it is sustainable or not. If a country were to ban Wind power it doesn't make wind power non-sustainable, it simply means it is not an option in that particular country. Same with nuclear power.
I'd suggest we rewrite this section to focus on nuclear waste disposal and handling, as that appears to be the only argument against classifying nuclear power as sustainable that holds any weight. The other arguments, while interesting in the context of weather nuclear power is a good idea or not, don't actually deal with its sustainability. I also have to wonder about the introduction. What does "social" reasons refer to there? I'd say we drop it and leave "for political reasons" or perhaps replace it with "ideological". Essentially the entire section on political controversy about the classification could use a rewrite. As it stands it is more about the controversy of nuclear power rather than controversy surrounding its classification. 85.230.193.135 01:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest that (per President Carter) Breeder reactors are too dangerous to be considered Sustainable, leaving the availability of (safer) nuclear fuel to be somewhat limited. Benjamin Gatti
Ben T/ C 08:31, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
This article gives a false and negative impression of renewable energy technologies, mainly by pointing out the perceived "primary challenges" of each one, without any corresponding discussion of responses to each of these criticisms, and without any discussion of primary opportunities associated with renewable energy technologies. So this is not a neutral presentation. Johnfos 08:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
If there are so many "primary challenges" with renewables, how is this possible:
Or this: SEGS, Nevada Solar One
These are key commercial initiatives which are being taken today and that need to be focussed on here as part of a balanced presentation. These are the relevant projects that are paving the way to sustainable energy. So they must be discussed as part of a neutral presentation. Johnfos 22:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
So now the issue is one of economics and not of primary challenges? I'll say again that the primary challenges to renewables are over-stated in this article.
As for wind power, here are a few more facts: the installed wind generating capacity in Germany in 2006 was 20,621MW (18,000 turbines) (see Wind power in Germany) and Denmark gets 20% of its electricity from the wind (see Wind power in Denmark). Thirteen countries around the world now have over 1000 MW of wind generating capacity and more wind farms are being constructed in most of these countries. There are no major problems in making capacity predictions for a few years hence, based on existing construction and building approvals received. To the best of my knowledge no one has suggested that predictions made are for exponential growth. -- Johnfos 22:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I wrote the Wind power in Germany article and so am well aware of what is said there. I think that article achieves a nice balance, which is something that is missing here. -- Johnfos 01:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that the "Renewable energy sources" section be replaced with text from the Renewable energy commercialization article, which discusses three generations of renewable energy technologies. Johnfos 01:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
We're starting to go around in circles now... There is no point in my adding to the existing text in the "Renewable energy sources" section because the text which is already there is fundamentally flawed. The text there presents a one-sided view of renewables because it is focussing on so-called "primary challenges". The term "primary challenge" is used no fewer than ten times.
I can find no reference in the linked articles in the Renewable energy sources section to the "primary challenges" of renewables. (I can find several references to "pros and cons", and "advantages and disadvantages", but that is something altogether different to what is presented here.) And there are only two references cited in the Renewable energy sources section. So the continuing problem is one of a largely unsupported and one-sided view being presented. And that is why the POV tag must stay. -- Johnfos 07:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The proposal is that the text from the Renewable energy commercialization article be brought in and used as a starting point for discussion of renewables here. What I think could be valuable at this stage is for you to carefully go through the Renewable energy commercialization article and make any changes that you feel are needed. In particular, I would be grateful for an indication of any statements there that you feel have not been substantiated adequately, in which case you may wish to add {{ Fact}} tags where necessary. -- Johnfos 01:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The presentation as it currently stands absolutely violates WP:NPOV. First, whether pro or con, such things must be reliably sourced. A "pro and con" style presentation would be acceptable, but the current style is "con only". That is not. (On a side note, any URL ending in "blogspot.com" is not a reliable source. What would be needed most here would be, for example, citations from peer-reviewed science journals from scientists who have studied the matter.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification, Seraphimblade. I agree with what you say.
I think that a "pros and cons" type of presentation about renewables would be adequate here, but it has been done several times before in different articles, and to do it properly would take up quite a lot of space (see, for example, Energy development).
But, most importantly, I don't think it is the most appropriate presentation for this article, given that our topic is Sustainable energy. Sustainablity (an ability to continue something indefinitely) involves a future orientation and so we should be forward-thinking in our approach. (This is why I think it is quite appropriate to devote considerable space in this article to Nuclear fusion power, even though it is still experimental and (as I understand it) a commercial fusion power station could not be expected for decades yet.)
So I would like to suggest that we use the text from the Renewable energy commercialization article to replace the existing "Renewable energy sources" section. This would provide a temporal perspective on three generations of renewables and would be a good starting point to help us move on, and the text could be edited as required. -- Johnfos 01:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I am confused on why the section "political sustainability of nuclear power" exists. I believe sustainability should be (as this article states) "sources which are not expected to be depleted in a timeframe relevant to the human race". Sustainability should not have anything to do with being "favorable or unfavorable", or how "politically popular or unpopular" it is. This section simply states that it's political sustainability is debatable, and then has 5 paragraphs of why some critics may find nuclear power "unfavorable". These arguments have nothing to do with how long this energy source can last (i.e. Is nuclear power sustainable?).
I believe this section should be substituted for information about the different ways nuclear power can be used, since some ways are much more sustainable than others. Ajnosek 23:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm unable to find the original publication cited as reference number 5: "^ "Hydropower-Internalised Costs and Externalised Benefits"; Frans H. Koch; International Energy Agency (IEA)-Implementing Agreement for Hydropower Technologies and Programmes; Ottawa, Canada, 2000". The reference includes a link to another web page, http://www.nei.org/index.asp?catnum=2&catid=260, which also references the publication. Can the author verify the citation? Mateopucu 15:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the POV tag which I put on this article in March. Renewable energy commercialization has become a Good Article now, and (as suggested above) I've brought in some new material from it for the Renewable energy section here, ready for editing. -- Johnfos 01:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is the phrase about other species relevant? -- Masonfree40 ( talk) 12:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The title description states "Sustainable energy is the provision of energy that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs." A) who can see the future? B) Even if the future remains the same (e.g. energy demand) as today, nothing is sustainable indefinitely. Solar will die when the sun dies, and could be modified by global climate change. Geothermal will diminish when the earth cools and internal fission also dies out. There is no "end of life" model that is sustainable forever. In the case of Sustainable Energy, there is also a beginning - energy collection systems have a live-cycle engineering beginning of life which also consumes energy -mining and refining of resources, transport and maintenence to name a few. Any energy collection concept also has an end-of-life, a disposal phase which also consumes energy. Life-cycle engineering needs to be part of any model for sustainability. As cited in one definition, I'd restrict sustainability to within the average lifetime of human beings. Furthermore, I'd stick to the definition and not the solution, for the solution is not at all apparent. There is much controversy whether any of the proposed options truly meets the definition of "sustainable". To suggest an unproven solution here is not honest. -- 96.244.247.130 ( talk) 02:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
The article barely touches on Nuclear Fusion but what it says is mostly inaccurate. It says both Nuclear Fission and Fusion create nuclear waste. This is not true, the only by product of Nuclear Fusion in the best type of reaction is Helium. The only radioactive material is the Tritium which there is very little of in the reactor. So little that if it were all to escape (unlikely) it would simply dissipate in the atmosphere with no ill effects there is very little in the reactor like a few grams. The only other issue is that the materials of the reactor will become radioactive over time due to the bombardment of neutrons, sure this is a problem but I would not lump it into the same issue of nuclear waste as Nuclear Fission. This material is a different class of radioactivity which is due to neutron bombardment and not from the material being radioactive this means it will only be radioactive for like a 100 years instead of 1000 years and it is also low grade radioactivity. On top of that you would not have much of this material only a few tons every like ten years when you need to replace the material for maintence, so even though this is a con it isn't a very big one as we can store this material under hardwater until it is stable enough to dispose of. It is a small price to pay for a realistic energy source that can meet the worlds needs in a non green house gas producing manner. To deny this simply because it has the word Nuclear in its name is short sighted and shows you really don't care about the envrionment. You have to remember even though it is a nuclear process it is the complete opposite of Fission they aren't similar at all. The only downside to Fusion is that it would be very expensive and is hard as hell. But so was the concept of flight it doesn't mean we shouldn't invest in it and make it happen. Luckily people are smart and are investing in it because the people who makes decisions don't base them off inaccurate articles like this. www.iter.org for more information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rukaribe ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Contrast to General View
Something is wrong here. Nuclear is not considered to be sustainable by the general public.(look up all different sources like EU Sustainable Energy Campaign, major environmental organisations or organisations /networks who are calling themeself "sustainable energy" e.g., INFORSE.).
Sustainability contra Environmental catastrophe (Chernobyl)
If we look at what "sustainablility" is we cannot call an energy source sustainable when its use has a potential to make a environmental and health catastrophe for a part of the world. (reference Chernobyl catastrophe). This cannot be debated. The Chernobyl catastrophe is a fact.
Non-sustainable Use of Renewables
It should be also noted that not all renewable energy sources are concidered to be sustainable. There are also unsustainable use of renewable energy. Unefficient use of biomass, and big hydro power plants are among those which are often considered to be not "sustainable".
Biased - Needs Rewrite
I think part of the article got biased by nuclear lobbyist and the article needs to rewritten.
TollymoreLad ( talk) 03:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
The reason is the fact that the forces that bond the atomic nucleus are about a million, or ten million, times as strong as the forces binding the electrons to the nucleus. The nuclear energy is therefore millions of times as much as any chemical energy you can get, per ton of fuel.
I am NOT a "nuclear lobbyist", merely a person with some knowledge of chemistry, physics, and how to access the Internet.
The popularly so-called renewables are not in fact sustainable energy at the current human industrial rate of consumption.
In historical fact, biomass never has been sustainable, even when the world population was under one billion. That's why so many primeval forests, including the trees on Aku-Aku, no longer exist. But in order to eliminate coal burning, which emits carcinogens at a rate that dwarfs the average rate per gigawatt-hour of nuclear fission power, the only alternative is the fantastically enormous energy density of atomic nuclei which were created long before any fossil carbon was laid down.
The Integral Fast Reactor project,
[1]
which was foolishly cancelled in 1994 after about 30 years of scientifically fruitful operation, showed that fissile nuclides could be renewed at the same time as the reactor's stock of U-235 was being consumed, and in a manner that was not amenable to terrorist theft. The plutonium was recycled into fuel rods by machines in an area of radioactivity billions of times more deadly.than plutonium. It could even consume waste plutonium, of which there is more and more as sanity replaces the Cold War.
It was designed and proven to be immune to the very breakdown that caused the Chernobyl disaster, and that aggravated (probably far less than the news services implied) the gigantic, immense disasters of a combined earthquake and tsunami at Fukushima.
The proof was a test conducted a week before Chernobyl. The mechanism was simple. It depended upon the delicate balance of neutron flux and neutron escape that keeps a fission chain reaction going, and the fact that the spaces between the target fuel rods enlarge when the metallic structures holding them expand in response to excessive heat. Add to that thermally conductive fuel rods, and a liquid metal cooling system, and the reactor shuts down and cools itself by convection. The reactor under test was deprived, in successive tests, of primary cooling pump power, then of secondary cooling system operation. It quietly shut down on both tests,
The entire energy consumption of the USA is under 38 times what a mere 50 million pounds -- 25 thousand tons --of uranium oxide per annum has been producing for more than a decade. Note that the energy comes from an isotope that is present at seven parts per thousand of these 25 thousand tons, and that the present usage of the uranium scarcely gets to consume a quarter of that. So if we could use all of the uranium by using a fast reactor, it would not be hard to supply ALL of our energy demands with a fraction even of that fairly trifling 25,000 tons. By contrast, (look up the EIA figures) it takes thousands of millions of tons of coal to provide half our electrical energy annually.
The statement that a catastrophe as grave as the Chernobyl incident excludes a technology from consideration, could be applied to the use of motor cars, which annually kill tens of thousands of people in the USA, and a large proportion of them are cut off early in life. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
TollymoreLad (
talk •
contribs)
04:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Judit Szoleczky-- Judit Szoleczky ( talk) 17:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
You people are horrible, Nuclear is clearly sustainable to say it isnt because of a chance of a Nuclear disaster is such a bad argument its impossible to explain how you are wrong if you really believe that. This is because you are saying a small chance could make it bad for the environment even though that is true the technology is still sustainable. Not to mention the fact that modern Nuclear facilities are so unlikely to have a Nuclear disaster the fact you bring it up shows you are closed minded and ignoring common facts to push your hippy agenda. To argue Nuclear is not sustainable because of Uranium supplies is a better argument but still silly because there is plenty of Uranium its like saying Geothermal isn't sustainable because you could use up all the heat in a geothermal location. Yes this is true but you'd have to use it a lot for a long time so it is negligble and we don't consider that making it not sustainable. If you really care about the environment use your head, if you dismiss Nuclear you are being short sighted and closed minded. Do you really think we can power the world on Wind, Solar, Biomass, etc? No that's ridiculous and if that is your goal you will fail and we will continue to use coal. The fact is coal is far worse than any amount of Nuclear waste. It's just the hippies don't like the idea of using atoms and getting nuclear waste even though it isn't a big deal. When they have no real argument except their own exaggerated assumptions, it's as bad as a religious person not agreeing with stemcell research. So if you truly care about the environment you will understand nuclear is good and maybe we can rewrite this article to show that it is the only true answer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rukaribe ( talk • contribs) 21:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
As a medical physicist, I do not consider Nuclear Power to be a safe technology, given the experiences of Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and other radiation incidents. But it is not sustainable simply because it relies on dwindling resources of Uranium, which is extractable in only a few countries. Nuclear power is only used by countries which need to continue their supply of nuclear materials for weapons, and I think the article is very biased. As alleged in the preceeding biased comment, I am not a hippie or horrible either, it is nuclear proponents who are the closed minded. -AndyH- 80.6.174.187 ( talk) 21:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
BTW, hydroelectrical plants are ecologically harmful too, if you really put it this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.78.150.171 ( talk) 20:13, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Please help improve this article by expanding it. J. D. Redding 17:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Many problems with this article. To say the least, it is poorly organized and needs a lot of work. I'm very unclear about the distinction between First, Second, Third generation technologies in terms of possible factual errors and POV. TeH nOmInAtOr ( talk) 00:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
What about maintenance cost of "green" solar / wind etc.? Is there a point where the cost of maintaining vast amount of machinery out paces the advantage of using such a system. Example: In ten years we have to replace the bearings in 8000000 windmills. or Birds pooped on and dust collected on 100000 mi^2 of solar panels. As amount machinery increases so does the human cost of maintaining it. 12.106.237.2 ( talk) 14:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
"Sustainable" must consider the entire Life Cycle of a system. It takes energy or resources to design and develop a technology before it it deployed. For example, it usually requires diesel fuel to power tractors to plant and harvest corn, to build a plant to render it to ethanol, and there is loss of energy in conversion to enthanol. It there is further losses of energy or resources to maintain it while in operational phase (energy for people to drive to site to maintain the system, or deliver the energy to end users, or manufacture spare parts), and finally it consumes energy or resources to dispose of the technology at end-of-life. Economic factors of life-cycle engineering all needs to be factored into "sustainability". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.245.164.83 ( talk) 23:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
could blacklight, nuclear fusion be added to the list. Synthethic bacteria should also be added —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.14.197 ( talk) 07:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Except for Nuclear power which is polluting in producing Nuclear waste. Why not MERGE all Three catagorys of Sustainable ,Renewable and Green Energy? Also, no mention of the ongoing (since 2005 ref tesla Society) of the Global Energy Independence Day(Held on Jul.10th The Birthdate of great energy pioneer Nikola Tesla 1856-1943) to support,promte and encourage "CLEAN GREEN" RENEWABLE ENERGY!Thanks! IMPVictorianus ( talk) 02:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I dispute the entire first paragraph definition of sustainable energy. First of all, nothing is sustainable forever, and the first paragraph appears to promote a fantasy that there is such a thing as infinite sustainability. Everything has a life-cycle (cradle to grave). I believe the point should be taken that there are viable long-term energy resources that can greatly extend the useful and practical life of energy recovery systems. I emphasize the words "useful and practical". I await articles that show sufficent proof of this.-- 71.245.164.83 ( talk) 02:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Yaris redirected this article [7], but I have restored it. Obviously we don't want to lose all this sourced information that has been built up over the years. Johnfos ( talk) 02:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
“ | Support merger of Sustainable energy and Green energy. Irrespective of our differences about what the original merger suggestion was. We can take both "sustainable" and "green" to mean "environmentally-friendly" or "does less harm to the environment than the alternatives". "Renewable" means something different. "Sustainable" could be taken by some people to mean "renewable" but we can link to Renewable energy from the merged article. I propose that Green energy be the name of the merged article because then it is clearer that we don't mean renewable energy. It has been suggested that "sustainable" is somehow a more respectable term and that "green" is just a marketing term. I would disagree. The word green is a more firmly established short-hand for environmentally friendliness. Hence the numerous green parties advocating green politics. "Sustainable" is a very broad term which could mean environmentally-friendly and could mean many other things. | ” |
— Yaris678 ( talk) 09:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC), Talk:Green energy#Merge proposal |
I agree with Rlsheehan and Hamiltonstone that "sustainable" is a more encyclopedic and definable term and that "green" is just a fuzzy marketing term. I think it would be a very strange situation for Wikipedia not to have an article called Sustainable energy. When doing the merge please make sure that no sourced content is lost. There actually seems to be very little overlap between the two articles in terms of actual content, so it would really be a case of adding the Green energy material to the end of the this article. Then normal editing could sort out any rough edges. Johnfos ( talk) 20:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Renewable energy Sustainable energy the same? Think theres TWO articles Wikipedia on this.One Alternative Energy One Sustaianble maybe combine both? Theres a Sustainable enrgy "Day" Jul 10th Global Energy Indpendence Day for 'CLEAN GREEN ENERGY"! VICTORYISMOI ( talk) 16:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
These are entirely different forms of energy. Lumping them together is like lumping together coal and gas because they both involve getting energy from chemical reactions. Fission power has been around for decades. Fusion power doesn't exist yet. There should be a separate fission section and a fusion section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.67.221 ( talk) 20:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
TollymoreLad ( talk) 02:42, 5 November 2011 (UTC) The probable best-so-far fusion energy technology is the Tokamak [2] The difficulty about it is, that even the core of the Sun, at 1000 times the temperature of its surface, and many times the density of lead, has a lower density of energy production than the density of energy consumption of a bumblebee or even a human body. Strictly speaking, the Earth's radioactivity, the source of all geothermal and tectonic energy, is radioactive decay, and it is significantly different from what we call nuclear fission. [3] [4]
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Should we merge the Renewable energy page with this one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabefair ( talk • contribs) 21:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Globalizing the Energy Revolution; How to Really Win the Clean-Energy Race by Michael Levi, Elizabeth C. Economy, Shannon O'Neil, and Adam Segal Foreign Affairs November/December 2010 99.19.44.155 ( talk) 17:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
This is the banner of a related course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Canada_Education_Program/Courses/Environment_and_Society_-_Fall_2012_(Grant_Aylesworth) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yxiao2424 ( talk • contribs) 02:02, 6 November 2012 (UTC) If you have any advice about this article, please write down on this talk page or edit by yourself! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yxiao2424 ( talk • contribs) 00:14, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Sustainable energy's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "NREL":
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:52, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Low-energy house was copied or moved into Sustainable energy with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Renewable energy in Germany was copied or moved into Sustainable energy with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Yxiao2424 - thus far, all of your edits constitute copy-pasting content, either from the public domain or other Wikipedia pages. Your last edit was reverted (should've been an AGF revert) as the content already exists and was properly segregated onto an appropriate page. There are guidelines on article size, and the content that should be included. Randomly copying related material to the primary category page from subpages isn't necessarily helpful, and such changes should be discussed and consensus established. A few general problems exist with the content you copied, including: discussion of Renewable energy, which is not the same as sustainable ( 1)( 2), improper formatting, and inclusion of content best left on subpages. More specifically, I noted a few other issues:
The low energy house content appears interesting - will comment more when I have time.-- E8 ( talk) 23:33, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I see. Thank you for your patient explaination.
Seriously, folks, the cleanest and most sustainably renewable technology is nuclear breeder technology, which can use 993 parts per thousand of the uranium that contains only 0.7% of itself as the fissile U-235. Fissile isotopes are renewable, and the waste when you don't throw away the uranium and plutonium is small and short lived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.45.41 ( talk) 07:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Please forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I noticed some issues with sections 5 & 7 of this article.
I hope my input is of assistance. ReveurGAM ( talk) 13:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Whoever added this in good faith does not appear to be aware that just because you use the carbon in coal stack CO2 emissions twice doesn't mean you really help the environment much at all. Synthetic fuels only make sense from a climate point of view if you get the CO2 from seawater or (less efficiently) the air, in every other respect however that the editor was right on the money, I have resurrected what they wrote in this regard, all if it makes economical, sustainable and climatic sense. This is what they wrote.-
The carbonic acid in seawater is in chemical equilibrium with atmospheric carbon dioxide. The United States Navy has done extensive work studying and scaling up the extraction of carbon from seawater. [5] [6] Work at the Palo Alto Research Center has improved substantially on the Navy processes, resulting in carbon extraction from seawater for about $50 per ton. [7] Carbon capture from ambient air is very much more costly, at between $600 and $1000 per ton. At present that is considered an impractical cost for fuel synthesis or carbon sequestration. [8] [9]
Commercial fuel synthesis companies suggest they can produce fuel for less than petroleum fuels when oil costs more than $55 per barrel. [10] The US Navy estimates that shipboard production of jet fuel from nuclear power would cost about $6 per gallon. While that was about twice the petroleum fuel cost in 2010, it is expected to be much less than the market price in less than five years if recent trends continue. Moreover, since the delivery of fuel to a carrier battle group costs about $8 per gallon, shipboard production is already much less expensive. [11] The Navy estimate that 100 megawatts can produce 41,000 gallons of fuel per day. [12]
Boundarylayer ( talk) 07:46, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Someone has removed the nuclear section, so I'm going to try to resurrect it. ReveurGAM ( talk) 08:16, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be the target of vandalism. I noticed a few days ago that the Energy Star section was also removed anonymously. Since the removal of the nuclear section was done anonymously as well, by a different IP, I have reverted it and added a brief note about Thorium. ReveurGAM ( talk) 08:30, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Take your pick -- Nigelj ( talk) 21:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
A report was published in 2011 by the World Energy Council in association with Oliver Wyman, entitled Policies for the future: 2011 Assessment of country energy and climate policies, which ranks country performance according to an energy sustainability index. [13] The best performers were Switzerland, Sweden and France. All produce electricity with from ~50% to 80% nuclear power in their electricity grid. No mention of (100% renewable) Iceland and no mention of Brazil either in the top three countries.
Due to a potential appearance of conflict of interest concerns [10] I have started a Request for Comments on engineering sustainable development. Tim AFS ( talk) 06:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
@ Johnfos: do you have any objections to replacing [11], [12], [13], and [14]? Tim AFS ( talk) 04:08, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Are there any reliable sources which actually say thorium fission is sustainable? There is already a paragraph about the debate as to whether fission can even be considered sustainable (obviously not, in my humble opinion) and thorium reactors are still very much experimental. Until they get in production and their are reliable sources saying they're sustainable the paragraph inserted in this edit should be removed. 63.228.180.122 ( talk) 21:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Renewable/sustainable?
I see no significant difference between this article and "Renewable energy" and if there is it certainly isn't clear. I would suggest merging the two. The other option is to open up this topic to include possibilities that will run out or do pollute, but are way more sustainable than the current open burning of fossil fuels. (fossil fuel/ carbon capture), (nuclear power/safe operation), (doubling or tripling the number of dams) could we have sustainable mean a little more yellow than green energy.
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