This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Here is my latest on the outline. I am thinking that the Sustainability in action section is probably too abstract, and will flesh out as we write it, it will have logic of its own.
V.B. ( talk) 15:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the article is pretty good now. I suggest we keep the information as is... and try to effect small changes... when changes are called for. Trying to become social agents for change is not the role here... providing a format such as obstacles to sustainability.. and transition changes things from being an encyclopedia to being social activists. We are just here to report what is going on in society... which the article ... for better of worse does now. If.... you feel V.D. that you want to take on a complete rewrite... then why not get a sandbox... make a mock up... construct it.. and let us take a look, or contribute also? Right now the article is a compilation of good material worked on by many and distilled down fairly well. It seems to me in previous arguments you have been arguing more rhetorical points on the polemics aspects. We should just remain neutral reporters here (my opinion), as we are not here to argue rhetorical polemic as to such things as Global consensus... of which there is none. There is only one consensus on sustainability currently, in our present system. That is that no one cares about it, as it impedes dollar business.. so in my opinion the article is fine as is... and maybe a little chipping away to improve it is a good idea... but it seems pointless to add debatable rhetoric polemic to it. 22:13, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
How can one have an article on sustainability without mention of exponential growth pf the population? Paul Studier ( talk) 23:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I've had a go at creating a "measuring sustainability" section using as much existing content as possible (but summarising this down quite a bit where I thought it got wordy)
Please check it out at: User:Travelplanner/sandbox and post your views on if it will fit, and how to improve it. -- Travelplanner ( talk) 05:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
It'll need to stay where it is for a week or so as the copyright status of the IPCC graph has been questioned, also it fizzes out at the end and needs work.
It was only my intention to take on one small part of this article, not to refocus the whole thing. But I do believe measurement is key to the disciplines of natural science and of economics and focussing on what is measurable can point to a positive way out of "edit wars" where these arise from conflict between the "ecological" and "economic" perspectives - which seems to be happening elsewhere in the article as well. It also seems to be more appropriate in an encyclopedia.-- Travelplanner ( talk) 22:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Here are my views on the "three pillars" in the hopes of generating useful debate.
I actually think if all co-authors could get to the same understanding on this one, many of the editorial issues would sort themselves out.-- Travelplanner ( talk) 22:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm back after a great holiday and I’m ready to press on. Good to see the work progressing so well. After not having read the article for a while and coming back to it, I think it is not too bad. For anyone new to the discussion group we are trying to get this article up to the "Featured Article" standard by working steadily through the "to do" list of tasks at the top of this discussion page. We are up to the History section in the list. Before adding my say on this section I have a few suggestions to put to the discussion group. We have developed the tradition of answering questions (see numbers below) in our own different colours after the question (if you cant do this hop in anyway).
1. The second sentence in the opening ("Similarly, the absence of certainty in terms of climate change, global warming has raised the profile of sustainability" [1]) seems to have appeared from nowhere. I am not sure that it fits, is coherent, or that the point it is making is clear. My suggestion is that it be removed or, if that offends, then that it be reworded to integrate better with the surrounding text? What do you think?
2. The second paragraph contains a lot of repetition. What do you think of the following to replace it? "The term has its roots in ecology as the ability of an ecosystem to maintain ecological processes, functions, biodiversity and productivity into the future.[3] To be sustainable, nature’s resources must be used at a rate at which they can be replenished naturally. There is now clear scientific evidence from environmental science that humanity is living unsustainably [4][5], and that an unprecedented collective effort is needed to keep human use of natural resources within sustainable limits."
3. There seems to be consensus that the "Three pillars diagram" could be improved. I can give that a go when I have time but will need help. At present a “bulls-eye” with environment outside, society second and economy in the centre seems to be the go – but VB – I remember you suggesting something else. Any ideas?
Now, to the History section.
Skip - thanks for adding this. I do have a few suggestions.
4. I do not think it would be intuitive to most people that the history of sustainability would begin with a discussion of books on ecological economics. Wouldn't this material fit better under the specific section set aside in the article for economic discussion that has been called "Economic Pillar" (although this title could be better, we can get rid of the "pillar” bit if people don't like it). IMO the sort of thing a history of sustainability might mention would be something along the lines of the way early societies used few resources, how ecology has honed our skills in understanding sustainable organic systems, and how recent human impacts can be alleviated by adopting a more ecological approach to living etc. etc. What do you think? Now I realise that, in a very general sense, all this is economics but surely the idea needs breaking in gently. What I am suggesting is that the discussion group develop a list of factors that should be considered in a history of sustainability, bearing in mind that it all has to be done in very few words and, in line with the rest of the article, it needs to be fairly lay-back (though well cited).
5. Then there is the question as to what economic information we think should go into "Sustainability" and what economic information should go into the completely separate article page on "Environmental economics". I raise this point because I think that, in general, the economic discussion in this History section is good but more academic and detailed than the more simple approach of the other sections of the article (for example it cites authors by name repeatedly while other sections of the article reduce the use of peoples’ names to a minimum) which makes the reading more easy going. Perhaps it could be reduced and simplified so that the ideas come through and names reduced (they can still be cited). Then the more esoteric bits could be used in the "Environmental Economics" article page, but the basic points kept in "Sustainability". Also a whole chunk has been simply copied from “Environmental economics” to here. There seems little point in this repetition of the same material in two places.
In short, I am suggesting that the economic material in “History” be shortened, simplified in style, and moved under the “economic pillar” section. I would suggest that although some ideas may be repeated, using the same words as elsewhere is not advisable. What do people think? If you like I can start a set of headings for a very brief “history”.
That’s enough now – we can get down to brass tacks once this has been sorted (he said). Sunray do we need to archive again, I'm not sure where this discussion page could be cut though, anyway - leave that to you? Archiving right now presents some challenges, as we have been all over the map in our discussions. Perhaps I will leave it for now and then archive when we've finished the history section.
By the way Skip I have been looking and reading the Technate stuff and think there is some really interesting material on energy that could be included if you like? Granitethighs ( talk) 07:34, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
* Bioeconomics * Energy Accounting * Ecodynamics * Ecological economics * Natural capital * Thermoeconomics
There is a lot to do and so must push on.
I’ve made sure I can add citations for all the various assertions, definitions and statements later – too messy at this stage.
Again, a couple of preliminaries.
The second sentence refers to “meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs”. We are all sensitive about sustainable development but, as a matter of fact, this quote came from the Brundtland Commission and is used in almost all formal accounts on Sustainability and SD when definitions are given. I suggest that in deference to this fact it deserves to be cited unequivocally as coming from this source.
I’m not so sure about this one but I wonder if, under the “Definition” section the following could be added near the end. This could counteract a perceived SD bias in the article as a whole and the avoidance of any definitions as examples– what do you think?
…. forward. With environmental sustainability as a focus, biologists use definitions of sustainability like the following: “… management practices that attempt too meet economic objectives in ways that do not degrade the environment” or “using, conserving and enhancing resources so that ecological processes in ecosystems are maintained”.
Now, again, the History:
There is consensus that the history section does not at present hold together or, at least,that editing is in order. I am essentially in favour of simplicity and, as the article now stands, do not fully understand the connection or necessity for the subheadings. environmental issues, economic growth and the environment and sustainability science under the heading “History”. Material under these headings need not be left out but could be put elsewhere and “History” left to stand on its own. In the light of feedback and thoughts from the discussion group I have condensed the History section and offer the text below as a Scratchpad for editing. I am not too confident about this as it is not my area so-to-speak but I think it conveys more closely what needs to be said in this section and gets us started. It is still too long and possibly overstates Sustainable Development but it is considerably shorter than the current section.
"Sustainable living, as the desire for self-sufficiency with minimal impact on the environment, possibly dates back to the dawn of humanity. Nomadic hunter-gatherers had neither the numbers nor technological skills to impact heavily on the environment although even they, through the use of fire and hunting would have left their mark on the landscape and animal communities. With the advent of the agrarian Neolithic Revolution about 10 000 years ago it became possible to support large settled communities on local produce although it is evident that excessive use of these resources led to the demise of some. Early pioneers would have relied on themselves and their communities to provide most of the things that they needed including food and clothing produced and used locally. Resources were used on a small local scale and tended not to be wasted because they were expensive. This was a form of sustainable living that was adopted, out of necessity, during the great depression of the 1930s. The Industrial Revolution completely transformed the world forever as.machines, powered by fossil fuels, supported rapidly growing populations that now had access to modern modern medicine. In an era of plenty, marketing encouraged high consumption and a disposable lifestyle.
Towards the end of the 1950s and in the 1960s people began to recognise that technology and economic growth had a downside, in fact they could have tragic side-effects. Beginning with the environmental movement of the 1960s, heralded by Rachel Carson's Silent Spring (1962) and subsequently underlined by the Club of Rome’s Limits to Growth (1975), there was an increasing awareness that human use of the Earth was indeed approaching a range of environmental and resource limits and that this trend, rather than diminishing, was escalating at an alarming rate. [15][16][6]
The global attempt to deal with this found a focus in the United Nations program of sustainable development
During the 1970s, while the developed world was considering the effects of the global population explosion, pollution and consumerism, the developing countries, faced with continued poverty and deprivation, regarded development as essential - to meet their need for the necessities of food, clean water and shelter. The 1972 United Nations Conference on the Human Environment, held in Stockholm was the UN's first major conference on international environmental issues and marked the beginning of global cooperation in developing environmental policies and strategies. In 1980 the International Union for Conservation of Nature published its influential World Conservation Strategy,[note 1] followed in 1982 by its World Charter for Nature,[18]which drew attention to the decline of the world's ecosystems. Confronted with the differing priorities of the developed and developing world, the United Nation's World Commission on Environment and Development (the Brundtland Commission) worked for two years to try and resolve the apparent conflict between the environment and development. The Commission concluded that the approach to development must change: it must become sustainable development. Development, in the Commission's view needed to be directed to meeting the needs of the poor in a way that no longer caused environmental problems, but rather helped to solve them or, in the words of the Commission in 1987:
Sustainable development is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.[19][20]
In the same year the Commission's influential report Our Common Future was published. The 1992 UN Environmental Summit in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil produced the Rio Declaration on Environment and Development Earth Summit (1992) with an action agenda, Agenda 21, (a strategy for the implementation of the principles of sustainable development) overseen by the Commission on Sustainable Development.[note 2]. At Rio negotiations also began for an international agreement on climate change (which eventually led to the Kyoto Protocol); agreements on forestry were forged and the Convention on Biological Diversity was initiated. By the time of the World Summit on Sustainable Development (Earth Summit 2002), held in Johannesburg, delegates included representatives from the World Business Council for Sustainable Development and thousands of local governments reporting on how they had implemented Local Agenda 21 and the Cities for Climate Protection program.[21] A broad-based consensus had been reached on what was to be done. This Summit, building on the 2000 United Nations Millennium Declaration, produced eight Millennium Development Goals for 2015 (adopted by 189 countries) and established the "WEHAB" targets for water, energy, health, agriculture, and biodiversity.[22]
The 2005 World Summit on sustainable development in New York declared that, to be effective, action on sustainability must involve cooperation across three sustainability "pillars": environment, society and economy.[note 3] Although it is critical that there is cooperation between the three pillars, in practice this often entails negotiation between competing interests.
The path of international sustainable development has never been smooth; it has many detractors. It treads the difficult path between opulent western consumer societies and the abject poverty of the developing countries of the world; between economic demands for local and global growth and environmental demands for biological and resource conservation; closely linked to these concerns are social factors that impact on environmental sustainability, such as global security, international migration, population control and global environmental legislation including the Convention on Biological Diversity, agreements on forestry, climate change, desertification, etc."
Please leave comments as usual. Granitethighs ( talk) 19:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC) PS Travelplanner - on sustainability measurement, have you seen the article on "sustainability accounting"? I agree wholeheartedly about this being very important. Granitethighs ( talk) 19:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Here is my latest on the outline. I am thinking that the Sustainability in action section is probably too abstract, and will flesh out as we write it, it will have logic of its own.
V.B. ( talk) 15:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the article is pretty good now. I suggest we keep the information as is... and try to effect small changes... when changes are called for. Trying to become social agents for change is not the role here... providing a format such as obstacles to sustainability.. and transition changes things from being an encyclopedia to being social activists. We are just here to report what is going on in society... which the article ... for better of worse does now. If.... you feel V.D. that you want to take on a complete rewrite... then why not get a sandbox... make a mock up... construct it.. and let us take a look, or contribute also? Right now the article is a compilation of good material worked on by many and distilled down fairly well. It seems to me in previous arguments you have been arguing more rhetorical points on the polemics aspects. We should just remain neutral reporters here (my opinion), as we are not here to argue rhetorical polemic as to such things as Global consensus... of which there is none. There is only one consensus on sustainability currently, in our present system. That is that no one cares about it, as it impedes dollar business.. so in my opinion the article is fine as is... and maybe a little chipping away to improve it is a good idea... but it seems pointless to add debatable rhetoric polemic to it. 22:13, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
How can one have an article on sustainability without mention of exponential growth pf the population? Paul Studier ( talk) 23:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I've had a go at creating a "measuring sustainability" section using as much existing content as possible (but summarising this down quite a bit where I thought it got wordy)
Please check it out at: User:Travelplanner/sandbox and post your views on if it will fit, and how to improve it. -- Travelplanner ( talk) 05:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
It'll need to stay where it is for a week or so as the copyright status of the IPCC graph has been questioned, also it fizzes out at the end and needs work.
It was only my intention to take on one small part of this article, not to refocus the whole thing. But I do believe measurement is key to the disciplines of natural science and of economics and focussing on what is measurable can point to a positive way out of "edit wars" where these arise from conflict between the "ecological" and "economic" perspectives - which seems to be happening elsewhere in the article as well. It also seems to be more appropriate in an encyclopedia.-- Travelplanner ( talk) 22:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Here are my views on the "three pillars" in the hopes of generating useful debate.
I actually think if all co-authors could get to the same understanding on this one, many of the editorial issues would sort themselves out.-- Travelplanner ( talk) 22:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm back after a great holiday and I’m ready to press on. Good to see the work progressing so well. After not having read the article for a while and coming back to it, I think it is not too bad. For anyone new to the discussion group we are trying to get this article up to the "Featured Article" standard by working steadily through the "to do" list of tasks at the top of this discussion page. We are up to the History section in the list. Before adding my say on this section I have a few suggestions to put to the discussion group. We have developed the tradition of answering questions (see numbers below) in our own different colours after the question (if you cant do this hop in anyway).
1. The second sentence in the opening ("Similarly, the absence of certainty in terms of climate change, global warming has raised the profile of sustainability" [1]) seems to have appeared from nowhere. I am not sure that it fits, is coherent, or that the point it is making is clear. My suggestion is that it be removed or, if that offends, then that it be reworded to integrate better with the surrounding text? What do you think?
2. The second paragraph contains a lot of repetition. What do you think of the following to replace it? "The term has its roots in ecology as the ability of an ecosystem to maintain ecological processes, functions, biodiversity and productivity into the future.[3] To be sustainable, nature’s resources must be used at a rate at which they can be replenished naturally. There is now clear scientific evidence from environmental science that humanity is living unsustainably [4][5], and that an unprecedented collective effort is needed to keep human use of natural resources within sustainable limits."
3. There seems to be consensus that the "Three pillars diagram" could be improved. I can give that a go when I have time but will need help. At present a “bulls-eye” with environment outside, society second and economy in the centre seems to be the go – but VB – I remember you suggesting something else. Any ideas?
Now, to the History section.
Skip - thanks for adding this. I do have a few suggestions.
4. I do not think it would be intuitive to most people that the history of sustainability would begin with a discussion of books on ecological economics. Wouldn't this material fit better under the specific section set aside in the article for economic discussion that has been called "Economic Pillar" (although this title could be better, we can get rid of the "pillar” bit if people don't like it). IMO the sort of thing a history of sustainability might mention would be something along the lines of the way early societies used few resources, how ecology has honed our skills in understanding sustainable organic systems, and how recent human impacts can be alleviated by adopting a more ecological approach to living etc. etc. What do you think? Now I realise that, in a very general sense, all this is economics but surely the idea needs breaking in gently. What I am suggesting is that the discussion group develop a list of factors that should be considered in a history of sustainability, bearing in mind that it all has to be done in very few words and, in line with the rest of the article, it needs to be fairly lay-back (though well cited).
5. Then there is the question as to what economic information we think should go into "Sustainability" and what economic information should go into the completely separate article page on "Environmental economics". I raise this point because I think that, in general, the economic discussion in this History section is good but more academic and detailed than the more simple approach of the other sections of the article (for example it cites authors by name repeatedly while other sections of the article reduce the use of peoples’ names to a minimum) which makes the reading more easy going. Perhaps it could be reduced and simplified so that the ideas come through and names reduced (they can still be cited). Then the more esoteric bits could be used in the "Environmental Economics" article page, but the basic points kept in "Sustainability". Also a whole chunk has been simply copied from “Environmental economics” to here. There seems little point in this repetition of the same material in two places.
In short, I am suggesting that the economic material in “History” be shortened, simplified in style, and moved under the “economic pillar” section. I would suggest that although some ideas may be repeated, using the same words as elsewhere is not advisable. What do people think? If you like I can start a set of headings for a very brief “history”.
That’s enough now – we can get down to brass tacks once this has been sorted (he said). Sunray do we need to archive again, I'm not sure where this discussion page could be cut though, anyway - leave that to you? Archiving right now presents some challenges, as we have been all over the map in our discussions. Perhaps I will leave it for now and then archive when we've finished the history section.
By the way Skip I have been looking and reading the Technate stuff and think there is some really interesting material on energy that could be included if you like? Granitethighs ( talk) 07:34, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
* Bioeconomics * Energy Accounting * Ecodynamics * Ecological economics * Natural capital * Thermoeconomics
There is a lot to do and so must push on.
I’ve made sure I can add citations for all the various assertions, definitions and statements later – too messy at this stage.
Again, a couple of preliminaries.
The second sentence refers to “meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs”. We are all sensitive about sustainable development but, as a matter of fact, this quote came from the Brundtland Commission and is used in almost all formal accounts on Sustainability and SD when definitions are given. I suggest that in deference to this fact it deserves to be cited unequivocally as coming from this source.
I’m not so sure about this one but I wonder if, under the “Definition” section the following could be added near the end. This could counteract a perceived SD bias in the article as a whole and the avoidance of any definitions as examples– what do you think?
…. forward. With environmental sustainability as a focus, biologists use definitions of sustainability like the following: “… management practices that attempt too meet economic objectives in ways that do not degrade the environment” or “using, conserving and enhancing resources so that ecological processes in ecosystems are maintained”.
Now, again, the History:
There is consensus that the history section does not at present hold together or, at least,that editing is in order. I am essentially in favour of simplicity and, as the article now stands, do not fully understand the connection or necessity for the subheadings. environmental issues, economic growth and the environment and sustainability science under the heading “History”. Material under these headings need not be left out but could be put elsewhere and “History” left to stand on its own. In the light of feedback and thoughts from the discussion group I have condensed the History section and offer the text below as a Scratchpad for editing. I am not too confident about this as it is not my area so-to-speak but I think it conveys more closely what needs to be said in this section and gets us started. It is still too long and possibly overstates Sustainable Development but it is considerably shorter than the current section.
"Sustainable living, as the desire for self-sufficiency with minimal impact on the environment, possibly dates back to the dawn of humanity. Nomadic hunter-gatherers had neither the numbers nor technological skills to impact heavily on the environment although even they, through the use of fire and hunting would have left their mark on the landscape and animal communities. With the advent of the agrarian Neolithic Revolution about 10 000 years ago it became possible to support large settled communities on local produce although it is evident that excessive use of these resources led to the demise of some. Early pioneers would have relied on themselves and their communities to provide most of the things that they needed including food and clothing produced and used locally. Resources were used on a small local scale and tended not to be wasted because they were expensive. This was a form of sustainable living that was adopted, out of necessity, during the great depression of the 1930s. The Industrial Revolution completely transformed the world forever as.machines, powered by fossil fuels, supported rapidly growing populations that now had access to modern modern medicine. In an era of plenty, marketing encouraged high consumption and a disposable lifestyle.
Towards the end of the 1950s and in the 1960s people began to recognise that technology and economic growth had a downside, in fact they could have tragic side-effects. Beginning with the environmental movement of the 1960s, heralded by Rachel Carson's Silent Spring (1962) and subsequently underlined by the Club of Rome’s Limits to Growth (1975), there was an increasing awareness that human use of the Earth was indeed approaching a range of environmental and resource limits and that this trend, rather than diminishing, was escalating at an alarming rate. [15][16][6]
The global attempt to deal with this found a focus in the United Nations program of sustainable development
During the 1970s, while the developed world was considering the effects of the global population explosion, pollution and consumerism, the developing countries, faced with continued poverty and deprivation, regarded development as essential - to meet their need for the necessities of food, clean water and shelter. The 1972 United Nations Conference on the Human Environment, held in Stockholm was the UN's first major conference on international environmental issues and marked the beginning of global cooperation in developing environmental policies and strategies. In 1980 the International Union for Conservation of Nature published its influential World Conservation Strategy,[note 1] followed in 1982 by its World Charter for Nature,[18]which drew attention to the decline of the world's ecosystems. Confronted with the differing priorities of the developed and developing world, the United Nation's World Commission on Environment and Development (the Brundtland Commission) worked for two years to try and resolve the apparent conflict between the environment and development. The Commission concluded that the approach to development must change: it must become sustainable development. Development, in the Commission's view needed to be directed to meeting the needs of the poor in a way that no longer caused environmental problems, but rather helped to solve them or, in the words of the Commission in 1987:
Sustainable development is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.[19][20]
In the same year the Commission's influential report Our Common Future was published. The 1992 UN Environmental Summit in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil produced the Rio Declaration on Environment and Development Earth Summit (1992) with an action agenda, Agenda 21, (a strategy for the implementation of the principles of sustainable development) overseen by the Commission on Sustainable Development.[note 2]. At Rio negotiations also began for an international agreement on climate change (which eventually led to the Kyoto Protocol); agreements on forestry were forged and the Convention on Biological Diversity was initiated. By the time of the World Summit on Sustainable Development (Earth Summit 2002), held in Johannesburg, delegates included representatives from the World Business Council for Sustainable Development and thousands of local governments reporting on how they had implemented Local Agenda 21 and the Cities for Climate Protection program.[21] A broad-based consensus had been reached on what was to be done. This Summit, building on the 2000 United Nations Millennium Declaration, produced eight Millennium Development Goals for 2015 (adopted by 189 countries) and established the "WEHAB" targets for water, energy, health, agriculture, and biodiversity.[22]
The 2005 World Summit on sustainable development in New York declared that, to be effective, action on sustainability must involve cooperation across three sustainability "pillars": environment, society and economy.[note 3] Although it is critical that there is cooperation between the three pillars, in practice this often entails negotiation between competing interests.
The path of international sustainable development has never been smooth; it has many detractors. It treads the difficult path between opulent western consumer societies and the abject poverty of the developing countries of the world; between economic demands for local and global growth and environmental demands for biological and resource conservation; closely linked to these concerns are social factors that impact on environmental sustainability, such as global security, international migration, population control and global environmental legislation including the Convention on Biological Diversity, agreements on forestry, climate change, desertification, etc."
Please leave comments as usual. Granitethighs ( talk) 19:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC) PS Travelplanner - on sustainability measurement, have you seen the article on "sustainability accounting"? I agree wholeheartedly about this being very important. Granitethighs ( talk) 19:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)