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@ SandyGeorgia: Started translation! I'm thinking about changing between the "under construction" and the "in use" templates; if I don't edit in the article for more than two hours, it's safe I won't do it in the next following eight :) -- Jamez42 ( talk) 09:02, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Pinging @ ZiaLater:, just in case. -- Jamez42 ( talk) 10:51, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
@
SandyGeorgia: Done! --
Jamez42 (
talk) 21:24, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Jamez42:, Firstly, I did not at all understand your edit summary here, could you reword it: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Supreme_Tribunal_of_Justice_(Venezuela)&diff=921623238&oldid=921622883
The problem with using "de jure" to describe to Supreme Tribunal of Justice in exile is that de jure implies legal legitimacy. And we can not endorse one of them in Wikipedia's voice. Notrium ( talk) 23:08, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
The article states why the appointment of the de facto tribunal is void.No, the article (slanted as it is) is actually quite clear that there are two different perspectives: the government's and the opposition's. It is not Wikipedia's job to decide which of these is correct. Both should be represented, and neither should be in Wikipedia's voice. Describing the opposition's perspective as the only
accurate description of the situation, and not one of two different perspectives, is a big problem, and would be better-aligned with attempting to "right great wrongs" rather than building an encyclopedia. An accurate, NPOV wording would be something like "creating a TSJ separate from the Bolivarian government" without any POV qualifiers. — cmonghost 👻 ( talk) 19:09, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
On 14 June 2016 the National Assembly nullifed the appointment carried out in 2015.
-- Jamez42 ( talk) 19:22, 18 October 2019 (UTC)The appointment of the justices was not done according with the legal procedure, but with a hurried process carried out on 23 December 2015 by the lame duck National Assembly with a ruling party majority, when the legislature ended on 15 December, after being defeated on the 2015 parliamentary election, where the opposition, represented by the Democratic Unity Roundtable opposition coalition, gained 112 of the 167 seats. (...) Both the opposition and several jurists have defined the appointment as illegal for not being performed according to the constitution and the Organic Law, including the challenges period, their lack of responses and the omission of the definite selections of the candidates.
On 12 July 2017, Ombudsman Tarek Saab, head of the Moral Council of Venezuela, said that the call for new magistrates would not be officially recognized by the Bolivarian government and that the magistrates already appointed by the lame duck Bolivarian National Assembly would instead continue to be recognized.[82] Despite the rejection of recognition by the Bolivarian government, the opposition-led National Assembly then voted 33 magistrates into office on 21 July 2017, creating a de jure Supreme Tribunal of Justice separate from the Bolivarian government.The opposition's appointment of 33 magistrates was not recognized by the Bolivarian government which means that it is not de jure from all perspectives, only from the opposition's perspective. What you are proposing to do is to implicitly endorse the opposition view and reject the government view, contrary to WP:IMPARTIAL, which states that:
Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes.If you would like to engage in this dispute I suggest you take it somewhere other than Wikipedia. — cmonghost 👻 ( talk) 04:27, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Cmonghost: Let's start over. Prodavinci, whose source is included in the article, describes the following violations in the lame duck Assembly appointment:
1. La violación del trámite de publicación de postulados y del trámite de impugnaciones. |
1. The violation of the process of publication of the candidates and the process of challenges. |
The analysis further explains why they are violations:
1. De acuerdo con el artículo 71 de la Ley Orgánica del Tribunal Supremo de Justicia, publicado el anuncio con los postulados, debía iniciarse un lapso para presentar impugnaciones a los postulados. (...) la designación de los magistrados comenzó el día veintidós de diciembre, cuando no había vencido, siquiera, el lapso de quince días de impugnación, lo que implica una grave violación a la Ley. |
1. According to Article 71 of the Organic Law of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, published the announcement with the postulates, a period should begin to present challenges to the postulates. (...) the appointment of the justices began on the twenty-second of December, when it had not even expired, the period of fifteen days of challenge, which implies a serious violation of the Law. |
The 2015 appointment violated the Constitution, Organic Law of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice and the National Assembly Internal and Debate Rules. The article is simply describing this. Has the government argued that these actions were not violations? Has the government provided justifications for these actions? No, it has not. If you know about any statement or reference referring to this, please provide them per WP:VER. There's no need to be aggressive and suggesting I should not be in Wikipedia. -- Jamez42 ( talk) 14:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
creating a de jure Supreme Tribunal of Justice separate from the Bolivarian governmentshould be changed to
creating another Supreme Tribunal of Justice, separate from the Bolivarian government(including on other related articles, which currently use similar wording). If you disagree with this proposal, can you please explain why you think we should ignore WP:IMPARTIAL in this instance and take the side of the opposition as fact? — cmonghost 👻 ( talk) 22:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Please take a look at the following RfC, wherein we discuss whether applying the label "pro-Maduro" to certain Venezela's institutions/branches of government violates WP:OR (possibly including WP:SYNTH policies, and whether it is neutral. /info/en/?search=Talk:Responses_to_the_2019_Venezuelan_presidential_crisis#RfC:_Should_Venezuelan_crisis-related_articles_use_terms_like_'pro-Maduro',_and,_if_not,_what_alternatives_can_be_used? Notrium ( talk) 09:15, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
This section was unreadable to me, because I don't speak Spanish. I have added parenthesized auto-translations, but I can't speak to their correctness.
The meat of this section is quotations in Spanish; I would argue that these are useless in English Wikipedia, and should be replaced either with quotations from a reliable (English language) source, or a paraphrasing in English of the original Spanish sources. I'm not going to delete the Spanish quotations, because I don't know how good the autotranslations are. In particular, I don't think my auto-translator knows what "Pusieron la plasta" means (I certainly don't).
I don't think this revision with translations is any better; I still can't work out what the story is. I think the entire section should be replaced with a properly-sourced English narrative account, instead of comprising maily quotes from political statements and legal documents. I think the section as it stands is a cop-out - it's important, which is why it's there, but despite its density it conveys little information.
MrDemeanour ( talk) 20:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
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@ SandyGeorgia: Started translation! I'm thinking about changing between the "under construction" and the "in use" templates; if I don't edit in the article for more than two hours, it's safe I won't do it in the next following eight :) -- Jamez42 ( talk) 09:02, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Pinging @ ZiaLater:, just in case. -- Jamez42 ( talk) 10:51, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
@
SandyGeorgia: Done! --
Jamez42 (
talk) 21:24, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Jamez42:, Firstly, I did not at all understand your edit summary here, could you reword it: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Supreme_Tribunal_of_Justice_(Venezuela)&diff=921623238&oldid=921622883
The problem with using "de jure" to describe to Supreme Tribunal of Justice in exile is that de jure implies legal legitimacy. And we can not endorse one of them in Wikipedia's voice. Notrium ( talk) 23:08, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
The article states why the appointment of the de facto tribunal is void.No, the article (slanted as it is) is actually quite clear that there are two different perspectives: the government's and the opposition's. It is not Wikipedia's job to decide which of these is correct. Both should be represented, and neither should be in Wikipedia's voice. Describing the opposition's perspective as the only
accurate description of the situation, and not one of two different perspectives, is a big problem, and would be better-aligned with attempting to "right great wrongs" rather than building an encyclopedia. An accurate, NPOV wording would be something like "creating a TSJ separate from the Bolivarian government" without any POV qualifiers. — cmonghost 👻 ( talk) 19:09, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
On 14 June 2016 the National Assembly nullifed the appointment carried out in 2015.
-- Jamez42 ( talk) 19:22, 18 October 2019 (UTC)The appointment of the justices was not done according with the legal procedure, but with a hurried process carried out on 23 December 2015 by the lame duck National Assembly with a ruling party majority, when the legislature ended on 15 December, after being defeated on the 2015 parliamentary election, where the opposition, represented by the Democratic Unity Roundtable opposition coalition, gained 112 of the 167 seats. (...) Both the opposition and several jurists have defined the appointment as illegal for not being performed according to the constitution and the Organic Law, including the challenges period, their lack of responses and the omission of the definite selections of the candidates.
On 12 July 2017, Ombudsman Tarek Saab, head of the Moral Council of Venezuela, said that the call for new magistrates would not be officially recognized by the Bolivarian government and that the magistrates already appointed by the lame duck Bolivarian National Assembly would instead continue to be recognized.[82] Despite the rejection of recognition by the Bolivarian government, the opposition-led National Assembly then voted 33 magistrates into office on 21 July 2017, creating a de jure Supreme Tribunal of Justice separate from the Bolivarian government.The opposition's appointment of 33 magistrates was not recognized by the Bolivarian government which means that it is not de jure from all perspectives, only from the opposition's perspective. What you are proposing to do is to implicitly endorse the opposition view and reject the government view, contrary to WP:IMPARTIAL, which states that:
Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes.If you would like to engage in this dispute I suggest you take it somewhere other than Wikipedia. — cmonghost 👻 ( talk) 04:27, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Cmonghost: Let's start over. Prodavinci, whose source is included in the article, describes the following violations in the lame duck Assembly appointment:
1. La violación del trámite de publicación de postulados y del trámite de impugnaciones. |
1. The violation of the process of publication of the candidates and the process of challenges. |
The analysis further explains why they are violations:
1. De acuerdo con el artículo 71 de la Ley Orgánica del Tribunal Supremo de Justicia, publicado el anuncio con los postulados, debía iniciarse un lapso para presentar impugnaciones a los postulados. (...) la designación de los magistrados comenzó el día veintidós de diciembre, cuando no había vencido, siquiera, el lapso de quince días de impugnación, lo que implica una grave violación a la Ley. |
1. According to Article 71 of the Organic Law of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, published the announcement with the postulates, a period should begin to present challenges to the postulates. (...) the appointment of the justices began on the twenty-second of December, when it had not even expired, the period of fifteen days of challenge, which implies a serious violation of the Law. |
The 2015 appointment violated the Constitution, Organic Law of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice and the National Assembly Internal and Debate Rules. The article is simply describing this. Has the government argued that these actions were not violations? Has the government provided justifications for these actions? No, it has not. If you know about any statement or reference referring to this, please provide them per WP:VER. There's no need to be aggressive and suggesting I should not be in Wikipedia. -- Jamez42 ( talk) 14:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
creating a de jure Supreme Tribunal of Justice separate from the Bolivarian governmentshould be changed to
creating another Supreme Tribunal of Justice, separate from the Bolivarian government(including on other related articles, which currently use similar wording). If you disagree with this proposal, can you please explain why you think we should ignore WP:IMPARTIAL in this instance and take the side of the opposition as fact? — cmonghost 👻 ( talk) 22:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Please take a look at the following RfC, wherein we discuss whether applying the label "pro-Maduro" to certain Venezela's institutions/branches of government violates WP:OR (possibly including WP:SYNTH policies, and whether it is neutral. /info/en/?search=Talk:Responses_to_the_2019_Venezuelan_presidential_crisis#RfC:_Should_Venezuelan_crisis-related_articles_use_terms_like_'pro-Maduro',_and,_if_not,_what_alternatives_can_be_used? Notrium ( talk) 09:15, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
This section was unreadable to me, because I don't speak Spanish. I have added parenthesized auto-translations, but I can't speak to their correctness.
The meat of this section is quotations in Spanish; I would argue that these are useless in English Wikipedia, and should be replaced either with quotations from a reliable (English language) source, or a paraphrasing in English of the original Spanish sources. I'm not going to delete the Spanish quotations, because I don't know how good the autotranslations are. In particular, I don't think my auto-translator knows what "Pusieron la plasta" means (I certainly don't).
I don't think this revision with translations is any better; I still can't work out what the story is. I think the entire section should be replaced with a properly-sourced English narrative account, instead of comprising maily quotes from political statements and legal documents. I think the section as it stands is a cop-out - it's important, which is why it's there, but despite its density it conveys little information.
MrDemeanour ( talk) 20:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC)