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Removing this Series Template from across the Scientology related pages. This is not correct usage of Series Templates per the guidelines. They were set up to show the history of countries and were different articles form a sequential series. This is not the case with the Scientology pages, which are random pages on different topics – not a sequence of any kind. Wiki’s definition of a series is: “In a general sense, a series is a related set of things that occur one after the other (in a succession) or are otherwise connected one after the other (in a sequence).” Nuview, 15:40, 10 January 2006 (PST)
This article isn't "misdefined" it is "not defined". There is a word there, it brings an idea to mind but there is no definition of that word. Instead of the meaning of the word, people are editing based on their created meaning of the word. HEH ! and then you people are tossing in all the controversy you can think of. "Fair Game" and other trivial pursuits, based on an invented definition of "Suppressive Person" when you don't have a definition of "Suppressive Person" to begin with. In several articles I have jumped in and supplied a definition when there was none, to prevent the kind of "invented definition" that the editors are using here. It has made me reluctant because editors immediately and incessently remove any bit of actual definition they find, substitute their invented definition and proceed to edit, edit, edit ! Wheee ! Terryeo 00:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I've tried to spark discussion. Soon I begin to edit, removing unciteable portions to the talk page here for citing. Terryeo 16:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
That's just wrong. That's not what a suppressive person is and Fair Game was long ago cancelled. You people who are convinced Scientology has only people in it who don't understand the real situation are completely misrepresenting the actual situations. When you find yourself unable to stop a subject from being communicated to the reader, you disperse the subject with excessive secondary sources. Very little of the subject is communicated in any of these Scientology and Dianetics articles. This one especially. When the subject is never presented, the only subject communicated is, "this is bunk". Space opera, for example. Its bit of information but for most of you it can be nothing but "central to scientology" In any event not only is no subject communicated, but none of you allow the subject might be communicated. Certainly there is no realistic definition of Suppressive person here and no citation that presents the subject either. I think it would take only 3 people who were convinced Scientology / Dianetics was bunk to disperse and misrepresent the subject sufficiently that good articles couldn't appear here. No need to mention names, you all are quite certain your POV is the only POV. Terryeo 07:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The article goes straight into controversy without a correct introduction. Then. what is explained is not accurate. In Scientology ethics material it is plain to see that HANDLING is done before disconnection with intimate ties. disconnection is used as a last resort. -- JimmyT 15:27, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Presently the introduction to the article states: "..coined by L. Ron Hubbard to refer (sometimes) to "enemies." The first word of this article is "Suppressive". At dictionary appears "5. To inhibit the expression of (an impulse, for example); example: suppress a smile." This is what Hubbard meant by the word in this context. At (webster's) "5 a : to restrain from a usual course or action <suppress a cough> b : to inhibit the growth or development of." The Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary states: "To squash, to sit on, to make smaller, to refuse to let reach, to make uncertain about his reaching, to render or lessen in any way possible by any means possible, to the harm of the individual." This is what the word "Suppress" means in this context. A "Suppressive Person" is a person who manifests that kind of behavior more than they manifest other actions. For example, Hitler did that to the Jews. Saddam did that to the Kurds. Some parents do that to their kids. Extreme examples are parents who have kept their kids in closets, who did not allow their child to normally develop. These are extreme examples of what Scientology jargon means when using the term, "Suppressive Person". If this is not argued with, if this is clear and plain then I will put it into the introduction of the article because the article does not, at this time, introduce what Scientology means when it uses this term. Will that be okay with other editors? Terryeo 23:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Clearly, AndroidCat means using a POV statement from a discussion as material for an article and, yes, Terryeo, your statements are very POV, generalities, and very disputable.-- Fahrenheit451 17:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
JimmyT, the twelve characteristics of a SP is a descriptive and differentiative definition, which is clearly cited in the article.-- Fahrenheit451 23:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
There is little to disagree with Terryeo's NPOV over the definition of Suppressive, to introduce the concept of Suppressive Person. -- JimmyT 15:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The term S.P. has been grossly misused in the cofs, and Hubbard acknowledged that in the SHSBC citation I provided. The situation continues to this day. Example, you don't agree with miscavige talk to the wall patter drills, you get comm ev'd and declared S.P. Someone who disagrees with these patter drills can hardly be compared to hitler, stalin, or john dillinger. -- Fahrenheit451 17:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The introduction is not presented in an encyclopedic way. The introduction is presented as an inflammatory newspaper article might present it which was attempting to rouse public opinion against the Church of Scientology. A definition of "suppression" is not present. A definition of "Suppressive Person" is not present. There is no introduction of the concept. What there is, there is a sort of "Scientology uses this word to punish people with, people who disagree with them". And even that is presented as if some unknown, unknowable, hidden high portion of the organization met in secret and made these declares. Its not a good introduction. Farenheit451, I understand that might be how you feel about SP declares but might it be possible to present the article with less passion and a more encyclopedic point of view? What say you? Terryeo 06:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
What do you propose? I did list the twelve attributes of an anti-social personality, with citation, as well as LRH's comments on S.P.'s from the SHSBC, with citation. That presents an accurate definition of SP. In the cofs, it has become "any person who the ijc says is in an ethics order". That is very far from LRH. Over to you.-- Fahrenheit451 15:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo, I wonder if you are making a technical degrade in your statement, "it is a sort of partial definition of a suppressive person." It is a descriptive and differentiative definition of an SP. Period. Could it be that the organization is grossly misusing LRH's works and falsely declaring people? You need to look at other possibilities, one of which could be that the cofs is currently altering and misusing LRH's works. Your statement, "the many policy letters which an Ethics Officer must study before he is qualified to make an offical suppressive person declare." indicates that you think there is "other policy" which allows certain people to circumvent standard policy and label people SPs at will.-- Fahrenheit451 23:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I tweaked the intro a bit. It's true that in normal English, "suppressive person" would probably mean "people who suppress other people", but it has a specific meaning and history within the context of the CoS. It's the specific CoS meaning of this term that is the entire subject of the article, so I think it's better to say how they use it than to express an english tautology.
Friday
(talk)
19:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
As this link - http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1968-10-21-cancel-fair-game.html - clearly shows, in 1968 Hubbard ordered the declaration of 'Fair Game' to cease on account of BAD PUBLIC RELATIONS, while the policy on how to deal with the fair game, that is a Suppressive Person, is to continue. LamontCranston 10:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Fair Game continues in the cofs. There are many accounts of this on the internet and in the published media.-- Fahrenheit451 23:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
You are wrong about that Terryeo, there are many documented cases in the media and internet where former members and critics have been targeted by the cofs for harassment. Terryeo, you are either not telling the truth, or you are not cognizant of what has happened.-- Fahrenheit451 22:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
"I would have given you $5,000 last year at this time that there is NO Fair Game. But the truth is, Fair Game is alive and just as bad as ever. I was even doing it, and didn't realize it." ( Tory Christman) -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Scientology Tech says that about 2.5 percent of the population of the planet fulfills the definition of "Suppressive Person". 2.5 % of 6,500,000,000 (6.5 billion) = 162,500,000 persons. That's Scientology's estimation of the quantity of "Suppressive Persons" on our planet today. How many of them are "enemies of Scientology"? Well, who knows, but 162 million people is a lot of people to have declared as "enemies" But that is exactly what the article presents. It presents and introduces that Suppressive Persons are declared enemies of Scientology and implies that they are declared because they are somewhat critical of Scientology. That isn't the meaning of the term "suppressive person" as Hubbard created it nor as the Church of Scientology uses it. As one example, sometimes people are declared "suppresive persons" and then work through the program which is always included in any suppressive person declare, and become active members and in training or auditing again. Yet if I try to edit the article, other editors always revert me as being "too POV" or some other, like sounding reason. Suppressive persons are simply that, people who would rather suppress you than to help you. There is quite a lot of technology (or call it something besides technology if you like), but anyway, quite a lot of it to the idea. Hitler was one, Saddam was one, extreme criminals are suppressive. You simply can't have a winning situation for everyone with a suppressive person in the mix. Terryeo 03:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for asking. Scientology Gossary states: "Suppressive person: a person who possesses a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause him to suppress other people in his vicinity. This is the person whose behavior is calculated to be disastrous. Also called antisocial personality." And then, another official glossary states: "Suppressive person: a person who possesses a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause him to suppress other people in his vicinity. This is the person whose behavior is calculated to be disastrous. Also called antisocial personality." That same site goes on to spell out more about this sort of personality, the antisocial personality which is presented here as "Suppressive Person," at: details of it It says in part: "there are those among us – about 2 1/2 percent of the population – who possess characteristics and mental attitudes that cause them to violently oppose any betterment activity or group. Within this category, one finds the Adolf Hitlers and the Genghis Khans, the unrepentant murderers and the drug lords." "It has been found that a person connected to an antisocial personality will suffer greatly decreased survival, impeding ... progress ... in all aspects of his life." The next page, more of that website goes on to state something about the effect such an anti-social personality (suppressive person) has on other people: "While it is commonly believed to take two to make a fight, a third party must exist and must develop it for actual conflict to occur." And finally there are a number of Scientology technical bulletins, booklets and references about it which spell out further details and state again the things the websites state. Terryeo 16:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
What would it take to get some concensus? The article does not state what the term means in Scientology. It inaccurately states how a declare of a suppressive person is made. It gives perhaps 5% or some small percentage of its use within Scientology. Every word of the article is some sort of biased criticsm without a single sentence which clearly states the actual situation without bias. Yet I attempt a reasonable introduction and it is reverted, not used to create a neutral article, but baldly reverted. What would it take? Are all of the editors so POV that they cannot tolerate the simple definition of the term? Terryeo 03:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipediatrix likes, "warns" about the anti-social personality. I like "educates" because the term, the codification of such people as Hilter and Stalin, Saddam and others is a new idea. History tells of their atrocities but history does not give us lessons so we can know what to look for in people and understand what motivates such people. History doesn't educate us about how to deal with such people or how to predict the behaviour of such people. Scientology does. I like "educates" and Wikipediatrix likes "warns". Terryeo 17:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, perhaps you're right I read:
The Church's official glossary of terms states: suppressive person: a person who possesses a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause him to suppress other people in his vicinity. This is the person whose behavior is calculated to be disastrous. Also called antisocial personality.
and then I read:
The Church expresses concern about these "antisocial personalities", meaning those "who possess characteristics and mental attitudes that cause them to violently oppose any betterment activity or group", including the Church itself.
I recognize you have used the phrase, "expressed concern" and I appriciate that you did. But isn't the second statement almost an exact word - for - word of the first statement with an evaluation of what the Church is doing ? Terryeo 22:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
The practice of Fair Game was cancelled by following reference.
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 JULY 1968 (Cancels HCO Pol Ltr 18 October 67 issue IV) Remimeo PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS (Applies to both Orgs and Sea Org) LIABILITY - Dirty grey rag on left arm. May be employed at any additional work. Day and night confinement to premises. DOUBT - May be confined in or be barred from premises. Handcuff on left wrist. May be fined up to the amount carelessness or neglect has cost org in actual money. ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned. May not be protected by any rules or laws of the group he sought to injure as he sought to destroy or bar fair practices for others. May not be trained or processed or admitted to any org. TREASON - May be turned over to civil authorities. Full background to be explored for purposes of prosecution. May not be protected by the rights and fair practices he sought to destroy for others. May be restrained or debarred. Not to be communicated with. Debarred from training and processing and advanced courses forever. Not covered by amnesties. Note: Any lower Condition assigned is subject to a Hearing if requested and to Ethics Review Authority or Petition if the formula is applied. A ship captain's okay is required in the SO for conditions below Danger, similarly in orgs where the Exec Council must approve one (Exception is Missions during the Mission who have unlimited powers). L. RON HUBBARD Founder LRH:js Copyright © 1968 by L. Ron Hubbard ALL RIGHTS RESERVED http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/audit/foster07.html
I think this kind of challenges the arguments that have been made previously in the discussions about this matter on this page. -- Olberon 17:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
What has been presented here indicates that the Fair Game policy letter was cancelled, but the practice is a different body of data. That practice could still be in place and countenanced. -- Fahrenheit451 18:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
"THE HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 OCTOBER 1967 Issue III POLICY AND HCOB ALTERATIONS HIGH CRIME Recently, during the reorganisation of WW, it came to light that in some Continental orgs EXEC SECS an SECS had an occasion actually ordered that certain Pol Ltrs and HCOBs were not to be followed. This order is an illegal order and any staff following it is guilty of executing an illegal order. Any executive issuing such an order shall hereafter be considered as committing a high crime which on proof beyond reasonable doubt constitutes a HIGH CRIME and can carry the assignment of the Condition of TREASON for both the person issuing the order and the person who receives and executes it. All such instances MUST be reported at once to the International Ethics Officer at WW. Failure to report such an order to the Int E/O when one knows of it carries with it the assignment of a Condition of Liability. Lines for the amendment of Policy already exist as per other Pol Ltr and until an amendment is legally and completely passed the old policy must be followed. HCOBs cannot be amended. LRH: jp Copyright © 1967
and then we have also:
This would take care of that. -- Olberon 19:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Again, what is policy in writing and what is done are two different bodies of data. "In the fog of war", one can justify all manners of law breaking, certain cofs members who were in the Guardian's Office were caught at breaking laws even after policy was in place otherwise. So, the issue is, even though Fair Game is cancelled as a policy, is the practice still extant in the cofs?-- Fahrenheit451 21:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
All this back-and-forth about old HCO PLs is a moot point: As recently as 1994, in appeals for Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology, Scientology's position was that "Fair Game" was still a "core practice of Scientology", and therefore protected as "religious expression". (Source: Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology, JCA-147, pages A-7, 15 & 16.) That would take care of this. wikipediatrix 19:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Fair Game was canceled a long time ago. Who knows if it was a forgery, but LRH canceled it. I think, because he knew it was wrong. Andreas' website is no a reliable source and this officially determined this in Terryeo's arbitration -- Nikitchenko 00:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
This sentence sometimes appears in the article. Those classified as Suppressive Persons are automatically specified as Fair Game (FG), which is a Scientology classification in its own right. That sentence could assert "were automatically specified as Fair Game, which was ...", but it is just plain wrong to assert: "are automatically specified as Fair Game which is ...". That wrong assertion is supported by two references. The second is: whatisscientology That link does not say that fair game is a practice, nor does it say that fair game was a practice", it doesn't say anything about about Fair Game.
I incorportated the following editing:
I changed sentence:
Into: (changes/additions in bold)
What I write is totally true and verified. The term 'Fair Game' has not been in use since 1968. (I also provided for fully valid referencing: "Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P.Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971, Chapter 7 ('Foster Report')", linked to it's exact location on the Internet). To claim that "Those classified as Suppressive Persons are automatically specified as Fair Game" is a falsity and completely unsubstantiated! In the original text 2 sources are provided for: '[6] [7]'.
Obviously both these 'reference sources' are quite improper to be used as such. They may be used as an external link, but using them as a 'reference source' is seriously violating Wiki NPOV rules! Both these links I had moved to the bottom of the page as 'external links'. I did not remove them out of the article as a few have claimed. A comment has to be made here about this paragraph that I left fully intact in the article: "The Church claims to have stopped declaring people "Fair Game" in 1968, but in 1989 and 1994 appeals for Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology (see JCA-147, pp.A-7, 15 & 16), Scientology's position was that "Fair Game" was still a "core practice of Scientology", and therefore protected as "religious expression". This forwards one angle of the situation and is basically what some persons have claimed in a court of law.
And what do we see? ALL of my additions and corrections forwarding NPOV are being reverted repeatedly! Specific substantiated arguments are also not being presented. For the most it is done through expressing generalities. The comments made in the history of the article will speak for themselves. The first person to revert is Dick Stevens
Then we have Wikipediatrix:
Question is what important information did I discard of? Fact is that I did not remove any data! I simply moved it to the appropriate places. But Wikipediatrix however physically gets rid of my fully valid added link (=data), and my verified referencing to the 'Foster Report'. Also what 'consensus' does she refer to? Is the 'consensus' not to follow NPOV and discuss on the talkpages? This person is not joining with arguments. I started this discussion on her talkpage. She comments: "Whatever. I said all I have to say in my edit summary. If you don't like it, feel free to complain to Wikipedia's management. Bye-bye. wikipediatrix 19:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)"
But her edit summary claims that I removed data when I did no such thing. She however discards of my valid referencing and data!
Another person is:
No reason given for this revert.
A last person is:
Also no reason for this revert is given. Although this person placed following message on my talkpage: "Thank you for experimenting with the page Suppressive Person on Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thank you for your understanding. A link to the edit I have reverted can be found here: link. If you believe this edit should not have been reverted, please contact me. - Glen TC (Stollery) 20:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)"
I will let his comments speak for themselves, although it is obvious irony. The person does not join either the discussion on the talkpage of this article!
This article probably will need some interference of others to ensure the information is forwarded in a neutral manner and that information to both sides of the issues are properly represented! Any of the mentioned persons reverting my edits are factually defying NPOV on this article. -- Olberon 09:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Please start reading and duplicating! You write: "Olberon removed the citations to xenu.net and fairgamed.org, which he has acknowledged doing", this is not true!!! I moved these links as external links to the bottom of the page, they were not moved out of the article! But you in fact move my additional external link and referencing to the 'Foster Report' out of the article! Fact is that you do yourself of what you accuse me of doing, it is documented! These 2 referencing links of yours provide biased opinions offering a conclusion based on ignoring data. Thus making it POV and therefore unsuitable as reference source. These are comments from 2 persons on their personal website! That what I say is confirmed by actual documented fact! (HCO PL 21 July 1968)
You are unable to substantiate that "Those classified as Suppressive Persons are automatically specified as Fair Game" today or even 1994 or 1981! Show me the writings from Ethics Orders etc. itself that this is the case. Fair Game is only confirmed being in actual Church writings in that particular time period! We have 2 conflicting data, BOTH should be fairly represented in the article! You base your WHOLE CASE on what some person(s) said in some court. NPOV. Both of you violate it.
Above are the rules of how to deal with this! -- Olberon 07:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible that we could agree on a couple side issues and get those out of the way? Myself, I don't have a problem with SP rather than S.P. and with the indentation. As far as I know, CoS doesn't use periods in their documents for acronyms. AndroidCat 16:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Until Olberon stops accusing every other editor who disagrees with him (and there are many) of "opposing NPOV" and other simplistic insults, I don't see any chance of constructive conversation with him being possible. By continuing to insult and alienate anyone who dares question his ranting, he begs the question whether his real desire is to simply disrupt this article, instead of working with other editors to improve it. If Olberon is sincere, he might do well to turn down the attitude six notches and accept that Wikipedia works by consensus: NO ONE can singlehandedly make Wikipedia articles say whatever they want them to; not myself, not AndroidCat, not Stollery, not Terryeo, and certainly not Olberon. wikipediatrix 21:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I added: * Information about Ethics Orders, Declares and Suppressive Persons
Please forward your exact arguments why this would not be proper! -- Olberon 12:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
5th paragraph, following the text "Those classified as Suppressive Persons are automatically specified as Fair Game (FG), which is a Scientology classification in its own right [6] [7]."
He writes amongst other:
The facts is that andreas does not mention HCO PL 21 July 1968 (quoted in full earlier on this discussion page) that previously had cancelled the Fair Game policy letter (HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV). Instead Andreas refers to HCO Policy Letter of 21 October 1968 and draws the erroneous conclusions:
Fact is that HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV had already been cancelled by HCO PL 21 July 1968 3 months earlier! This is confirmed by the 'Foster Report' "Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P.Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971, Chapter 7.
Obviously both these 'reference sources' are quite improper to be used as an actual reference source. Firstly because these are personal opinions of both the webmasters of these sites. Secondly they are proven to contain incorrect information. They may very well be used though as an external link, but using them as a 'reference source' is violating Wiki rules. Suggested is to move these links to the bottom of the article as external links. The 'Foster Report' is proposed as a valid reference source. -- Olberon 16:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Basically Wiki is not about being right or wrong.
And you want to remove the 'Foster Report' reference that is "sourced material"? Your reference: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Terryeo/Evidence#xenu.net_content)
These 2 links discussed in this chapter are presently found in the article direct to 2 personal opinions. It does not say in that reference (Request for Arbitration) that this is allowed as source referencing. Some data from that site xenu.net may, and some data from that site may not be used as such! It simply depends on what you are linking to. You can not cover the whole of xenu.net under this! It does not say in the information found at your link that the decision has been taken that you actually can! Direct us to it if it does! The outcome is that you have no argument. -- Olberon 16:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems like every month another $cientologist pops up (Terryeo, Al, JimmyT, UNK, Nikichenko, Nuview now you...) and we have to cover this issue again and again: Xenu.net is a valid source, see
here
Okay? -
Gl
e
n
T
C
(Stollery)
13:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not ask for the religious affiliation of its editors. Wikipedia has a single goal which is to present good information to people. Olberon has spelled out why some of the information in the article is not good information. Surely, Stollery and Wikipediatrix, your goals are Wikipedia's goals, are they not? Good information, cleanly presented, good attributions, easily linked and explored by the reader ? Scientology comprises a large amount of information, personal websites present certain aspects but Wikipedia's standards raise the bar and require attributions and not just personal opinions and original research. Olberon has made valid statements which anyone can easily check out. To refuse to reply to what he has stated, to continualy revert personal website opinions into Wikipedia articles is vandalism. WP:RS states, "personal websites may not be used as secondary sources of information (in wikipedia articles)". 65.147.74.58 20:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC). I am user 65.147.74.58 and didn't realize I wasn't singed in. Terryeo 12:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to point out that two reverts today were made by user "Monkey_power", however revert on May 26th was made by user "Monkeypower" (notice missing underscore) - these are two different users, and one probably tries to impersonate another. Should we do something about that?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Futurix ( talk • contribs) .
Hmmm. No, thats not me. This is my first and only account on Wikipedia. I am flattered someone decided to create an account in homage of me, though. If they are here only to create mischief for other editors then I am sorry, as that was not my intent for editing here. -- Monkeypower 13:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Im not a part of any cabal thats all I have to say -- Monkey power 23:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
OK. A review of this talk page and the Scientology "information war" on Wikipedia tells me I am wading into controversial waters. So I will start first of all with my POV - I am neither a Scientologist nor an anti-Scientologist and know next to nothing about Scientology doctrine except what I have read on Wikipedia. My interest is to work toward making Wikipedia as reliable and objective as possible as a reference source and countering attempts to turn it into a battleground of hotly held opinions. In short, my observation is this - I fail to see how a list of Actions that indicate a person MAY be declared an SP can serve any purpose except to promote someone's personal negative opinion of Scientology. If there is a policy letter out there issued by Scientology that contains this list - fine, but then some sort of verifiable reference is needed. However, I note that no attempt has been made to include any verifiable reference (including by the author who added this material) since the "citation needed" tags were introduced over three and a half months ago. As to the quality of the article generally, I note that this feature of Scientology appears to be similar to that of excommunication prevalent in many religions. It seems to me that a section acknowledging this with some sort of comparison of the differences and similarities with excommunication in mainstream religions would raise the standard considerably. Really Spooky 21:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
See discussion # 17 for details.
Invalid source links are being pushed as such, when reality is that they lead to personal opinions of 2 persons on their personal website. In addition it has been shown that various information found there is false and is pushing an opinion while ignoring certain data.
An argument is made with this info about xenu.net: The conclusion made was "Notwithstanding Heldall-Lund's disclaimers, xenu.net contains many works by prominent independent critics of the Scientology church". This basically indicates that these works as being indicated as deriving from "prominent independent critics" (this having been established by publication in bookform or being recorded as official reports and various) can be specifically be used as a reference source. That information though that is not indicated as such and clearly indicate that these are the personal opinions of the webmasters of these sites can not be used as reference sources. "I, Andreas Heldal-Lund, am alone responsible for Operation Clambake. I speak only my own personal opinions."
When I remove these links as indicated in discussion #17 and change them to external links they get reverted time after time after time by users such as Futurix and Wikipediatrix. Comments are being used such as: "(rv of Olberon's edit - for the very same reasons as Wikipediatrix, Stollery, and other editors)". These persons however do not address my arguments in my detailed query as found in discussion #17. All that I say is ignored and brushed off with a general comment!
An additional point is that my reference source also gets discarded of. This is the socalled 'Foster Report' "Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P. Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971." (see details in discussion #17). Meaning that the readers of the article do not get a chance to consult this official report.
It appears that arbitration is needed to settle this. I don't see how an agreement can be reached with these persons reverting these edits. The subject is quite controversial. In any way the subject should be approached in a neutral way in order for the reader to make up his/her own mind about it. If there exist alternate information of different opinions they should ALL be properly represented. The reverts of my edits however prevent that from happening! A particular interpretation is pushed and the other is deliberately disposed of.
A last comment can be made that Fair Game was only in use in the period 1965-68. This is the only period in which it is documented being in use. This 'Foster Report' lays out in detail with full quotations of the relevant policy letters how it was dealt with. But as explained previously my referencing to this official report is discarded of by Futurix, Wikipediatrix and also Stollery. (some of Futurix comments why he finds this improper to use are found in discussion #17)
For above reason I changed sentence:
Into: (changes/additions in bold)
This improvement is also repeatedly being rejected.
All these actions basically show that some intend to maintain a certain flow of information to be kept in this article. I write these lines here in order for that the unknowing reader can read here what is happening and that one should be aware that this article apparently is at war. -- Olberon 05:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1. You contradict yourself. You say here "The point is that third-party information from xenu.net is perfectly acceptable as Wikipedia source. Personal opinions of xenu.net webmaster are obviously not acceptable and were never used on Wikipedia (despite Terryeo's claim)." I have proven by fact that this is being done in this article with your 2 links. They specifically address the personal opinions of the webmasters, but you push them! (see also discussion #17 & #13).
2. The 'Forster Report' Chapter 7 confirms:
That issue redefined the Fair Game definition. The 'Foster Report' also notes "Some idea of the strictness of the internal discipline can be gleaned from the following", it then it quotes in full HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 OCTOBER 1967, Issue III POLICY AND HCOB ALTERATIONS - HIGH CRIME. HCO PL 21 July 1968 was the valid policy and as such was to be followed and not HCO Pol Ltr 18 October 67 issue IV that was previously cancelled by it.
3. Which is your personal opinion. The 'Foster Report' is an official published report that supplies alternate information about the issue and you deliberately delete it as it does not confirm your POV. This action violates Reliable Sources & Verifiability.
4. You deliberately dispose of alternate information. You writing "and wrote your usual logical fallacies instead :-)" could be interpreted as a personal attack.
I filed a complaint for vandalism for this article. -- Olberon 12:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Fahrenheit451, this quote doesn't looks like it is about SPs - in fact it can be attributed to usual careerists. Why do you think it is worth keeping? Futurix 11:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, the article is about the scientology topic of S.P.s. This is quoted information from Hubbard on that topic. I think careerists and what Hubbard describes are two different things so it not a fact, but rather your view on it. I do not express my POV in the quotation. -- Fahrenheit451 20:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This was removed by another editor without a discussion. I added it back with wikipediatrix's formatting.-- Fahrenheit451 01:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I've asked at Village Pump how to deal with this situation. Obviously a personal essay on a personal website is not to be used as a secondary source of information as Stollary, Wikipediatrix and other editors are doing with their reversions. So I've asked what the procedure is for this sitatuation. I included difference links to show the reverted edits by some editors. and quoted some edit summaries. Terryeo 08:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
People... I ran across the Village Pump discussion. You might not want an outside opinion, but here it is anyways. The xenu.net link is obviously a personal essay. All the text interspersed with the Policy Letters can be only that. The fairgamed.org link is an entire website being cited for one sentence. The arb decision noted that convenience linking to third party info was fine. If you're referencing the Policy Letters, can't you just cite the individual letters and use the xenu and fairgamed links as convenience links?
Also, why exactly is the intro longer than the article itself? With the things Olberon is removing it's virtually the entire article. KSevcik 12:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
In the edit summary of his latest edit-war revert, Olberon denies that the consensus is against him on this. "What consensus?", he asks. Well, let's see.... so far, Olberon's edit has been reverted by Futurix, AndroidCat, Stollery, Fahrenheit451, Wikipediatrix, Dick stevens, Vivaldi, Monkeypower, Antaeus Feldspar, and 81.66.101.199. Olberon's primary cohorts in his edit war have been Nikitchenko (who turned out to be a sockpuppet and is now banned from Wikipedia) and Monkey power, which looks like another sockpuppet specifically designed to imp Monkeypower and cause confusion. wikipediatrix 15:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Original research is against Wikipedia Policy, however, and this is a point that Olberon does not want to acknowledge, Reliable Source is a Guideline, subject to consensus. RS is a matter of editorial judgment. And for Olberon's edification, I am Not antagonistic to Scientology, rather I majorly agree with it. I am dismayed by those who call themselves scientologists, but attack editors who disagree with them, flagrantly and repeatedly violate wikipedia policy, then give long-winded justifications for it, and in general, create enemies of themselves and the church of scientology on wikipedia. -- Fahrenheit451 20:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
That statement is not a generality, but is based on my observation of a number of editors who call themselves scientologists, such as Terryeo, UNK, Nikitchenko, Al, and so on.-- Fahrenheit451 00:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Olberon, you seem to be wikilawyering here, just giving captious criticism. RS is a guideline and any edits under that guideline are subject to editorial consensus. The consensus here is contrary to your POV. You will have to defer to this consensus. -- Fahrenheit451 23:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Wrong again, Terryeo, anything put on a publicly accessible website is legally published to the public.-- Fahrenheit451 00:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not attempting to change it. You are under a indefinite ban. You have demonstrated that you cannot apply editing policy. You have been unsuccessful so far. -- Fahrenheit451 05:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
One of the difficulties about personal websites is the creation of this kind of situation: [4] and [5] The arbitrator's make statements about Clambake.org: [6] An arbitrator states in discussion, "...As for the website being a personal one, we seem to all be in agreement that it is one. Please note that the Proposed decision has not made any ruling regarding whether or not article on it can be referred to or linked to." [7] He then goes on to say, "The issue has been framed as to whether or not xenu.net is a personal website, which is why I've responded to that specifically; it undoubtedly is. However, when a website is merely reproducing information from reliable sources (e.g. Time magazine), then I don't see any issue in linking to that website for convenience. Note, this is not a blanket approval for doing so in all cases. I have seen many instance of websites that are not reliable enough to even reproduce outside information". At WP:RS, Fahrenheit451 was part of an extensive discussion on this issue at [8] and [9] Clambake's status as a personal website has been extensively addressed at WP:RS by Fahrenheit451, by Wikipediatrix and by Stollary. Here is one example of past discussion: [10] Terryeo 01:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm a newcomer, so I apologize if I've got it wrong, but is the current dispute whether the statements:
Another controversial policy related to those classified as Suppressive Persons is " Fair Game", which is a Scientology classification in its own right [11] [12].
and
The SP declaration process has not always been so bureaucratic: former Scientologist Bent Corydon describes seeing Scientology franchise holder Gary Smith declared Suppressive on the spot during the October 1982 Mission Holders' Conference, simply for not obeying a shouted order to change his seat. Corydon, Bent (1987). L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman?. Secaucus, New Jersey: Lyle Stuart. ISBN 0-8184-0444-2.
{{ cite book}}
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ignored (|author=
suggested) ( help) An online edition of the book is at [13].
are properly sourced? In other words, are those the only clambake cites, and is there a dispute as to both of them, or only one? Thanks, TheronJ 02:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Oberon, let me ask one more question to clarify this dispute.
The first Clambake link leads to two letters apparently published by the Church of Scientology, plus some personal commentary. Does everyone agree that the letters themselves are authentic or are they in dispute?
The second Clambake link goes to the text version of a 1998 book Messiah or Madman. Is there a dispute as to whether the relevant section of the book is reproduced accurately? (Alternately, if the article just cited directly to the book without the link, would there still be a dispute?) TheronJ 22:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the ' Foster Report'. It is official published material and therefore can be used as a valid reference source. I found that it does not quote HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV, but it does quote the policy letter that was replacing it in July 1968 and various other policy letters relating. "Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P.Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971, Chapter 7.
A published copy of HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV can be found in: Scientology; Basic Staff Hat Book, Number 1, released 1968, page 26. This publication is however seriously rare. -- Olberon 10:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
If I understand correctly that:
then it seems to me that the easiest solution is just to replace the first Clambake cite with the less controversial cites, and move Clambake to the bottom of the page. Are there any objections? TheronJ 17:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
What is the purpose of that section? It is painful to read, and adds nothing to the article. Futurix 12:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I added it as it is about the subject of sps. It is relevant for that reason. I don't think there is anything painful about it. Olberon actually added half of the prior paragraph. I opine that it enhances the article with more relevant information. -- Fahrenheit451 21:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
It's funny how in the last 2 days most links to materials critical of Scientology were removed (only 3 left, at the very end of article, and 2 of them are to church documents - not the critical materials on the same websites). At the same time article gained many new links to official CoS websites (and Foster report, of course). Makes you think, isn't it? Futurix 13:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no policy that references should be "balanced". That is your POV.-- Fahrenheit451 21:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Removed uncited cruft. Do NOT add again without proper citation. -- Monkey power 10:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The most recent edit summary reads much like a personal attack. Wikipediatrix (rv vandalism by Monkey power, whose name is apparently chosen to deliberately cause confusion with Monkeypower, who was editing this article first.) This isn't the place to bring up user names because nothing can be done about user names here. There is a guideline and a page about user names and that is the place to bring up confusions people have about user names. The Village Pump has discussed user names, some user names are not allowed for various reasons. This isn't the place to bring up user names. To state that an editor is "deliberately causing confusion", yet to refuse to participate in the discussion about the reverted material is uncivil, at least uncivil. Also, it isn't a very enlightening edit summary and it isn't a creative edit. For large, wholesale reversions like that, there is a section of this talk page. That is what it is for, to talk about that section. One editor asked about that material, "why is it there, its painful to read". Terryeo 15:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
TheronJ, you can't exchange the 'Foster Report' link with a link that goes to a scan of HCO PL 21 Oct 68 Cancellation of Fair Game in 2nd chapter, 3rd paragraph where it says: "The extent to which this policy has continued beyond 1968 is a subject of controversy. The Church claims to have stopped declaring people "Fair Game" in 1968 [6], but in 1989 and 1994 appeals for Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology etc.."
The cancellation of Fair Game issue is not only about HCO PL 21 Oct 68! The 'Foster Report' addresses the situation at that time. We are not just quoting here from this HCO PL 21 Oct 68 as at the other location. -- Olberon 06:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
At the place where just a quotation is made from HCO PL 21 Oct 68 a reference to the scan of that issue does suffice. It does however NOT suffice if we have a different situation. At this particular location it has to address "The Church claims to have stopped declaring people "Fair Game" in 1968". Why is this so hard to understand? -- Olberon 15:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The extent to which this policy has continued beyond 1968 is a subject of controversy. The Church claims to have stopped declaring people "Fair Game" in 1968,[cite] but in 1989 and 1994 appeals for Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology, the Church's position was that "Fair Game" was still a "core practice of Scientology", and therefore protected as "religious expression".
[cite]L. Ron Hubbard, "HCO Policy Letter (HCOPL) of 21 October 1968"; see also Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P.; Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971, ("Foster Report"), Chapter 7, paragraphs 176-77
The footnote appearing as [9] states: Hubbard, "The Auditor", no. 31, p. 1. (1965). But The Auditor no. 31 could not have been published in 1965. I am not accusing anyone of making something up, but the Auditor no. 31 was published sometime between the Auditor no. 27 (Aug 1, 1967) and the Auditor no. 34 (March 1, 1968) and could not have been published in (1965). Either the date is wrong, the number is wrong or the publication is mis-stated in some other way. I don't have a copy of that issue and can't tell you what, exactly is wrong. User:ChrisO introduced that quotation and citation: 14:41, 3 June 2006 ChrisO (some major revisions; rm dubious xenu.net link, add more info) [14] Terryeo 15:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The footnote appearing as [11] references the section Alleged abuse of SP label within the Church of Scientology and is mis-stated. The quotation within the article is accurate but the date of the lecture within the article is also wrong. The date of that lecture was 19 July 1966 and not 19 June 1966. The footnote should appear more like this: About Rhodesia, Hubbard, lecture given on 19 July 1966, a Saint Hill Special Briefing Course lecture. The quote begins, "You should upgrade your idea ..." and the quote is accurate but the date of the lecture is wrong. And the attribution is incomplete because it does not name the lecture as it should. Terryeo 18:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Footnote or reference [12] Flag Executive Directive 2830RB of 25 July 1992, "Suppressive Persons and Suppressive Groups list". A Flag Executive Directive is distributed to various organizations of the Church. It is rarely published to the public, perhaps never. To my own personal knowledge, no FED has ever been published to the public. I could be mistaken. If it has not been published to the public and is an internal distribution, then it should not be used as a secondary source of information. Terryeo 06:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
FYI, it is kept on harddrive only now after the 1994 "spillage" into the public domain.-- Fahrenheit451 02:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Hubbard Communication Office (that organization which originated and distributed Hubbard's communications) Policy Letters are documents about the policy and day to day administration of the Churches, Missions, and Organizations of the Church of Scientology. HCO PL is the commonly used abbreviation. 16 Mar 71 (the date March 16, 1971) Issue II (the second unique document of this level of document issued by Hubbard on that date)
HCO PL 16 Mar 71 Issue II, An Operating Standard Rule "This is rigid policy, not advice: . . . all Ethics Orders or actions must state what the person has to do to be reinstated in good standing." The same word for word statement appears in Introduction to Scientology Ethics Chapter 13, page 345, Bridge Publications, Inc. 1998, ISBN 1573181323
HCO PL 23 Dec 65RB (revised 8 Jan 91), Suppressive acts suppression of Scientology and scientologists spells out what must be included in an ethics order, such as an ethics order which would expell a suppressive person. This includes a list (A to E), doing the list of actions would then reinstate the person in good standing. During the expelled person's reinstatement actions there is a single office of the Church which they communicate with. "<The expelled person's> only <line of communication> is the International Justice Chief, who: A) Tells the person .. to cease all suppressions. B) Requires the person to do a public announcement (sometimes by writing a letter) about their situation and change of attitude. C)Requires that all debts owed to Scientology be paid. C) May require that a suitable amends project be done. D) Requires training beginning at the lowest level of the Bridge. D) <the holder of the office of Justice Chief does certain paperwork> E) <the holder of the office does more paperwork>"
Here is an example of an ethics declare which expells a person. It states that which I have stated. Any communication marked "To International Justice Chief" which is handed to any receptionist in any Church of Scientology would be, I believe, routed to that office. Terryeo 03:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Really Spooky (rv, Hubbard's quote cannot affirm anything it was made 40 yrs ago + it affirms nothing, he only expresses concern of possible abuse). Hubbard was the creator of the idea of Suppressive Person. He is deceased and the idea is widely published. When did he create the idea? Well, he created the idea 40+ years ago. His quote affirms 1) he created the idea. 2) the organization which he likewise created should use the idea 3) the idea should be used with some care. The idea is a powerful one and is that a small percent of people create most of the trouble. But everyone knows that. The idea though, must be used with some care because it certainly isn't appropriate to jail everyone who jaywalks nor to excommunicate everyone who doesn't prey 3 times a day, nor to expell everyone who says, "I can't believe what Hubbard is saying in this paragraph?!?!" (a phrase I have myself used). Terryeo 15:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what purpose is intended by the phrasing "...the Church of Scientology claims is an assertion of Hubbard that 'regardless of apparent traits, all men are basically good....'" This is, in fact, asserted by Hubbard; it is stated explicitly in Introduction to Scientology Ethics, and from what I understand is a basic belief of Scientologists. Darguz Parsilvan 00:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
http://www.dictionary.com defines Repentance as; "Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin. See Synonyms at penitence"; which states "These nouns denote a feeling of regret for one's sins or misdeeds." Would you agree that when we talk about "Repentance" we are talking about a feeling or an emotion that an individual experiences? That is what that particular dictionary says, "a feeling of regret". Well, you know that a feeling which a person has does not build the house back which the arsonist burnt down, nor make the leg whole that the dangerous driver smashed into. I honestly don't see what applicability "repentance" has to "being redeemed", nor even what "being redeemed" has to do with anything, anyway. Man is basically good. If he makes a mistake and harms the Church then the harmed party, (the Church) keeps the door open a crack so he can again become active in the Church. Do you see? Man is basically good. Period. Therefore the Church's policy of dealing with a declared suppresive person is based on that information, man is basically good. Terryeo 04:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This might be one of those cornerstones of non-understandable difference which I have found here and there. No quote quite fits "repentant" because "repentant" is considered to be an emotion, it is placed on the emtional Tone scale and the organization moves on. That a formerly declared SP feels an emotion is perfectly okay but has nothing at all to do with the actions which will be taken (or not taken). However, it might be noted that a "program of amends" is sometimes required for an expelled individual to become active in the Church again. Terryeo 04:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe ReallySpooky may not have understood my reasons for changing the section header earlier today. I base this on his/her edit summary: "Let’s keep in NPOV – stating there is abuse is critical opinion; noting there have been allegations and/or warnings of abuse is reporting the facts". This was in response to my changing the section header from "Alleged abuse of the SP label within the Church of Scientology" to "Abuse of the SP label within the Church of Scientology", which I explained with my edit summary: "it seems that "alleged abuse" and "predicted possible abuse" both fall under the topic of "abuse"."
ReallySpooky is correct that "stating there is abuse is critical opinion"; where I believe he/she is going wrong is in thinking that naming a section header "Abuse of the SP label" is, inherently, stating there is abuse. According to that logic, we should be going through all the Scientology articles and getting rid of any section headers such as "Thetans", "Reactive mind", "Engrams", or "Suppressive Persons" -- these are all things which only some people allege to exist, and if merely naming something in a section header is equivalent to asserting its existence, then we certainly can't assert the existence of all these very disputed constructs by giving them section headers.
Obviously, such a thing would be absurd. Naming something in a section header only asserts that it is a topic of discussion. In this case, not only is it a topic of discussion, it would be even if no one had ever alleged that abuse of the SP label had ever occurred! Hubbard is quoted as discussing the possibility that the SP label would be abused; to discuss Hubbard's prediction that such abuse might happen in the future, it would be entirely logical to use the section header "Abuse of the SP label". It is what he's discussing! The fact that we're also discussing actual allegations of such abuse just makes it doubly logical. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do you editors cover "abuse of SP label by church" but you don't also cover "Abuse of Social Personalitites by SP's" such as murders, kidnaps, death threats, poisonings, forgeries, imposterings, stalking, lying. Why is there a Suppressive Person article but no Social Person article. This is POV pushing... having one article but not the other. I was stalked, forged, impostered, and other sabotage for years by notable anti-scientologists just because I was a scientologist who exposed their crimes which were later indisputibly documented. -- Social personality abused 23:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't there a
Social Person article, yet there is this Suppressive Person article? Why? Because the anti-scientologists here are POV pushing. --
Social personality abused
02:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Fahrenheit451, I note your quote from Hubbard that 'cross-hatting' is a trait of an SP. Could you (or someone else knowledgeable on the subject) please add a line explaining what this means in Scientology-speak? If that cannot be satisfactorily done, or this is just a throw-away comment by Hubbard that doesn't really have anything to do with the topic, IMHO it just clutters up the article. Also, what is the purpose of the "waffle-waffle-waffle-waffle-waffle" line? If this line has any informative value at all, it is not evident and some context would seem in order. If its inclusion is simply designed to make Hubbard look incomprehensible and silly, however, it should be removed. Whilst it may be entertaining, the purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform, not take the piss out of Scientology. Really Spooky 15:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph presently reads: From the lecture 7203C05 ESTO-10 "Revision of the Product/Org Officer System - Part 2" Hubbard also included another trait: "So, an SP does various things and one of the things he does is cross-hatting. And it's a phenomenon I hadn't actually analyzed until fairly recently and looked back over the number of times it has happened. Cross-hatting. You're trying to hat this person as one thing and somebody has crossed our lines and is hatting him as something else. And I'd begun to realize that that is one of the favorite tricks of an SP. You really don't want to be here, what you really want to be doing is waffle-waffle-waffle-waffle-waffle." It is ORIGINAL RESEARCH an editor has done when an editor stated Hubbard also included another trait. That is not what Hubbard did. It is false to say so. The traits are listed. The new paragraph introduces the abbreviation "ESTO-10" with no explanation whatsoever and the information "7203CO5" with no information of what the symbols mean, the paragraph is dispersive and not informative, it contains ORIGINAL RESEARCH which an editor has introduced and it is NOT an additional characteristic, but is part of the education which Staff Members of the Sea Org get after they join the Sea Org and are learning the ropes. The only person who would ever observe a suppressive person creating a Cross-hatting situation would be a Sea Org Member. The 12 characteristics of a Suppressive Person are spelled out. There are no others. It is false and original research to state that there are others. It is, in fact, an outright LIE ! Terryeo 17:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Now User:Fahrenheit451 has removed the lie by calling his introduced information "an additional datum". Well good. But, his introduced information still has the difficulty of having brought into the article a brand new Scientlogy Jargon term which is Cross-Hatting. The article does not contain any definition of that term which is not widely known and has a very specialized meaning and is particular to Scientology Administration. Where is a reader to learn ? Common dictionarys don't define the term, as the article stands it presents confusion. Terryeo 05:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Interesting comment, as Hubbard nowhere qualifies or limits the application of his statement to only "within the Church". It is also interesting that someone wants to remove this paragraph after the terms have been defined. Suppression of knowledge is a horrible thing.-- Fahrenheit451 00:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo statements about the Flag Executive Briefing Course are interesting. If the reference Terry cites really exists, it is the first time there has been any statement from the Church of Scientology International that the ESTO lectures are "unpublished". The Church of Scientology of California never made any such statement and the definition in Admin Dictionary by L. Ron Hubbard ISBN 0-88404-040-2, which is culled from Church issues written by Hubbard, make no such claim. What is more, in the soft cover version of What is Scientology, 1998, ISBN 1-57318-122-6 has no page 950, but on page 481 it states, "In April 1970, Mr. Hubbard invited executives from all churches to attend his Flag Executive Briefing Course on the flagship Apollo. The end result placed true administrative experts in all local churches. And with the later publication of the Organizational Executive Course and Management Series volumes, all policy was now readily available to the 2,553 staff of the 118 churches and missions in 20 nations." There is no evidence that the febc or the esto lectures were "an inter-organizational memo", but in fact they were course lectures in Church policy given by Hubbard, which is and has been offered to any Scientologist. According to the Admin Dictionary by L. Ron Hubbard, a memorandum is "a written communication such as an informal letter, report or dispatch showing who it is directed to, who wrote it, the subject matter, date, message, and signature. It is primarily for use in communicating to different people, departments, branches, or locations of the same organization. In communicating to persons outside of the organization, one uses a formal business letter." So those lectures aren't a "memo". Terryeo's term "publication to the public" is perhaps his own version of how he wants wikipedia policy to be. But on wikipedia, publication is sufficient, and both the esto and febc transcripts have been published, despite what the CSI may now claim, if indeed they do. Also, the numerical code on Hubbard's lectures are not even defined in Technical or Administrative dictionaries. Both cross-hatting and esto were defined. Terryeo should Assume Good Faith on the part of other editors he does not agree with and understand that wikipedia is a work in progress.-- Fahrenheit451 00:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The transcripts ARE published and any student is given the lecture transcripts to keep for their reference. The original publisher is the Church of Scientology of California Publications Organization. That organization was disbanded and suceeded by the Church of Scientology International Golden Era Productions. The course is taken by enrollment and paying the required fee. Yes, both the lectures and the transcripts bear copyright notices. So, there is no original research here. The arguments Terryeo provided on his talk against it are not valid.-- Fahrenheit451 20:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I add a quote that Terryeo removed from his page because it is right to the point and demolishes his "published to the public" argument"-- Fahrenheit451 20:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I should make it clear that in the quote posted above by Fahrenheit, I was referring specifically to Terryeo's argument that the materials are "unpublished" and therefore can't be cited at all. To quote, "Permission of the copyright owner is not required to cite an unpublished work as a source or to use information from it." [18]
The issue of whether a source is verifiable per WP:V is a separate matter. If the original source (in this case the FEBC lecture "The Org Officer/Product Officer System Part 1") can be purchased from the CoS, or has been deposited in public libraries, or has been quoted in reliable sources, or is otherwise publicly accessible, then it's verifiable and legitimate quote fodder. If hasn't been, then it isn't. The onus really is on the people who wish to include this quote to demonstrate that it meets any of the conditions I've just mentioned. -- ChrisO 23:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Some false information has entered into this discussion: The FEBC and ESTO course are available to ANY member of the CofS who has taken the prerequisite courses. There is no such requirement as "high ranking". There is also no stipulation anywhere in Scientology that a non-Scientologist may not view the FEBC or ESTO materials. Let's not use false assumptions to jump to bogus conclusions. -- Fahrenheit451 23:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The FEBC and ESTO are available to every Scientologist, period. Terryeo, please refrain from attempting to redefine WP:V with your own criteria. Thank you. -- Fahrenheit451 01:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The folks at the flag land base probably would not even let you in, unless you were some high mucky-muck v.i.p. They have been known to bar cofs members from entering their buildings. One could probably set up an appointment at another venue and be allowed to see them.-- Fahrenheit451 15:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The definition is incorrect. Here is an online link: [20] and the definition from the Management Dictionary pg. 211 by L. Ron Hubbard is: "the febc consists of high level administration technolgy. It is the Class VIII Course for admin. The name, Flag Executive Briefing Course reflects the fact that this course was intitially developed in 1970-71 on Flag. The febc checksheet is built around the Management Series volume plus the FEBC tapes which give the Product/Org Officer system. It includes a daily period of training drills through the course time plus some personal Esto actions done on the student such as product clearing and post purpose clearing. (HCO PL 17 May 74R)-- Fahrenheit451 15:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Really Spooky, I am advising you to remain civil, your tone seems to be getting hostile. You or someone else alleged the stipulation that a non-scientologist may not see the febc or esto transcripts. I refuted it, but the burden of proof is on the originator of the allegation if this person cares to pursue it. I would be happy to show you the lecture transcripts if you were here. In any case, I will be searching the web for an online reference. -- Fahrenheit451 15:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no way to verify that the church of scientology international's position is that the febc is unpublished, and if indeed that is what is stated, it is clearly a falsehood. The Church of Scientology of California made no such statement. The lecture and transcript are published for distribution to students of said course. As for your speculation about the publication motives of the CSI, the "jargon" is no more difficult than reading HCO policy letters. The fact is, the CSI DOES sell the febc to a public who are students that have done the prerequisites. -- Fahrenheit451 23:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo, I did a websearch and cannot verify your statement about the febc being "unpublished". I even went here [21] and there is no such data. Only the softcover version of WIS is available from that site, so there is no way for me to order it. Could it be that the hardcover version of What is Scientology is "unpublished"? -- Fahrenheit451 00:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I think you should take a look at these images: [22] and [23] This is a promo scan I made that clearly shows the FEBC is offered to cofs public. I am not accusing You of deception, but based on my direct observation and this promo, it is verifiable that the course is offered to the public. The recordings may not be offered for public sale at present, but students purchase transcripts with the course, which they keep. :-)-- Fahrenheit451 13:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
My point is that it IS published, but of rather limited distribution, which can make verifiability difficult.-- Fahrenheit451 19:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
C7203C05 (delivered in the 03 month of 1972 and contained on medium 'CO5', which is a kind of audio tape) was a lecture by Hubbard. It was delivered aboard the ship, Apollo that month. Its title was Handling Personnel. The Church published a hardbound book titled; What is Scientology, of 1059 pages, ISBN 1573180785. Apparently Fahrenheit has the paper back version which does not contain a chapter which the hardbound contains. The hardbound says about that (and the other 11 lectures of that series, delivered abord the Apollo), on page 950, Delivered to Flag Executive Briefing Course students aboard the Apollo, this series of lectures details the Establishement Officer system. (Unpublished work, not available for purchase. Can be heard by those enrolled on the Flag Executive Briefing Course and Establishement Officer Course.). Please notice, the Church clearly announces the lecutre is not for sale and further, please notice the lecture can not be owned by individuals. In fact a person may only listen to that lecture and may never own that lecture. Terryeo 06:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
And that is an outright lie. The audio recording is no longer for sale. The transcription is for the student to keep and use in the future. The "church" in this case is the church of scientology international, not the original church of scientology of california, which made no such statement. -- Fahrenheit451 08:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, F451 and I don't seem to cooperate very well in this section. However, I have located an online repository of some of the information which F451 implies I have "lied" about, that is, the hardcopy version of the book What is Scientology has a chapeter 48, Complete List of Scientology Materials which the softbound book does not. A similar list appears online at this link. Terryeo 09:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Reference #[8] the 12 characteristics of a suppressive person references to HCO PL 27 Sept 66, Issue II, The Antisocial Peronality The Anti-Scientologist. It is a perfectly good reference. However, the 12 characteristcs of a suppressive person appear at Scientology's official website. That link is [24] Both references might be used, the official online version is far more available than a written policy letter. The policy letter expands the online version very slightly, but both pieces of information are word for word duplicates. Terryeo 17:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The webbed version is based on the original. Both should be cited, then. -- Fahrenheit451 13:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
At Origins and definitions the article states: The concept appears to have first been introduced into Scientology in 1965, possibly as a response to increasing challenges to Hubbard's authority from discontented members [4]. The original research appears is, possibly as a response to increasing challenges to Hubbards authority from discontented members. That is pure whoop-dee-do original research. It is a conclusion on the part of an editor. It states what an editor sees as a possibility. The reference to [4] is an attempt to substantiate User:ChrisO's personal research which he introduced editing difference on 3 June 2006. If that reference [4] makes that statement, then quote the source and cite the page number. As it stands right now the article presents ChrisO's original research and WP:NOR applies. Terryeo 00:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The problem here is the problem that often happens when you read a section and present information in an article, ChrisO. You do not directly quote the information which has led you to the conclusion you present in the article. Such writing may be perfect in your articles at clambake.org, such writing may be stunning in your posts on newsgroups. But such writing is not encyclopedic, it does not satisfy WP:V which states explicitly that the responsibility for information introduced by an editor, be quoteable by that editor. You have introduced a weasel worded phrase. Can you supply an internet page which has that weasel worded phrase of page 131? Then there is the second part of your introduced information. possibly as a response to .. which is an evaluation of Hubbard's motivations. I know otherwise, but I don't expect you to understand otherwise. What I expect you to do is exactly what WP:V and WP:RS and WP:CITE spell out you should do. You should quote the book, you should use the words it says in print. That would be encyclopedic writing and I suspect the weasel worded phrase, appears to have been introduced in 1965.. does not actually appear in the book. Terryeo 22:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I looked the up Ruth A. Tucker's book on the internet. I found exerpts from it. [25]] She makes contradictory statements. According to the exerpts Tucker states:
The whole of Suppressive Person Technology is an ethical action and its only purpose is to allow technology to happen. It is used if technology is stopped, it is used to stop that thing which is stopping technology. The article presently states: One of these is "disconnection," in which Scientologists are ordered to cease all communication with the declared "suppressive,". That's not entirely wrong but it presents information without a context. That might have happened a few hundred times but other ways of dealing with the situation were tried first. It is a last resort, but the article doesn't present the action in its context. In extreme cases, one of these is "disconnection," in which a Scientologist is ordered to cease communication with the declared suppressive person," would be accurate. Alternatively, After other methods have been tried could be used. Terryeo 16:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Removing this Series Template from across the Scientology related pages. This is not correct usage of Series Templates per the guidelines. They were set up to show the history of countries and were different articles form a sequential series. This is not the case with the Scientology pages, which are random pages on different topics – not a sequence of any kind. Wiki’s definition of a series is: “In a general sense, a series is a related set of things that occur one after the other (in a succession) or are otherwise connected one after the other (in a sequence).” Nuview, 15:40, 10 January 2006 (PST)
This article isn't "misdefined" it is "not defined". There is a word there, it brings an idea to mind but there is no definition of that word. Instead of the meaning of the word, people are editing based on their created meaning of the word. HEH ! and then you people are tossing in all the controversy you can think of. "Fair Game" and other trivial pursuits, based on an invented definition of "Suppressive Person" when you don't have a definition of "Suppressive Person" to begin with. In several articles I have jumped in and supplied a definition when there was none, to prevent the kind of "invented definition" that the editors are using here. It has made me reluctant because editors immediately and incessently remove any bit of actual definition they find, substitute their invented definition and proceed to edit, edit, edit ! Wheee ! Terryeo 00:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I've tried to spark discussion. Soon I begin to edit, removing unciteable portions to the talk page here for citing. Terryeo 16:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
That's just wrong. That's not what a suppressive person is and Fair Game was long ago cancelled. You people who are convinced Scientology has only people in it who don't understand the real situation are completely misrepresenting the actual situations. When you find yourself unable to stop a subject from being communicated to the reader, you disperse the subject with excessive secondary sources. Very little of the subject is communicated in any of these Scientology and Dianetics articles. This one especially. When the subject is never presented, the only subject communicated is, "this is bunk". Space opera, for example. Its bit of information but for most of you it can be nothing but "central to scientology" In any event not only is no subject communicated, but none of you allow the subject might be communicated. Certainly there is no realistic definition of Suppressive person here and no citation that presents the subject either. I think it would take only 3 people who were convinced Scientology / Dianetics was bunk to disperse and misrepresent the subject sufficiently that good articles couldn't appear here. No need to mention names, you all are quite certain your POV is the only POV. Terryeo 07:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The article goes straight into controversy without a correct introduction. Then. what is explained is not accurate. In Scientology ethics material it is plain to see that HANDLING is done before disconnection with intimate ties. disconnection is used as a last resort. -- JimmyT 15:27, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Presently the introduction to the article states: "..coined by L. Ron Hubbard to refer (sometimes) to "enemies." The first word of this article is "Suppressive". At dictionary appears "5. To inhibit the expression of (an impulse, for example); example: suppress a smile." This is what Hubbard meant by the word in this context. At (webster's) "5 a : to restrain from a usual course or action <suppress a cough> b : to inhibit the growth or development of." The Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary states: "To squash, to sit on, to make smaller, to refuse to let reach, to make uncertain about his reaching, to render or lessen in any way possible by any means possible, to the harm of the individual." This is what the word "Suppress" means in this context. A "Suppressive Person" is a person who manifests that kind of behavior more than they manifest other actions. For example, Hitler did that to the Jews. Saddam did that to the Kurds. Some parents do that to their kids. Extreme examples are parents who have kept their kids in closets, who did not allow their child to normally develop. These are extreme examples of what Scientology jargon means when using the term, "Suppressive Person". If this is not argued with, if this is clear and plain then I will put it into the introduction of the article because the article does not, at this time, introduce what Scientology means when it uses this term. Will that be okay with other editors? Terryeo 23:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Clearly, AndroidCat means using a POV statement from a discussion as material for an article and, yes, Terryeo, your statements are very POV, generalities, and very disputable.-- Fahrenheit451 17:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
JimmyT, the twelve characteristics of a SP is a descriptive and differentiative definition, which is clearly cited in the article.-- Fahrenheit451 23:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
There is little to disagree with Terryeo's NPOV over the definition of Suppressive, to introduce the concept of Suppressive Person. -- JimmyT 15:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The term S.P. has been grossly misused in the cofs, and Hubbard acknowledged that in the SHSBC citation I provided. The situation continues to this day. Example, you don't agree with miscavige talk to the wall patter drills, you get comm ev'd and declared S.P. Someone who disagrees with these patter drills can hardly be compared to hitler, stalin, or john dillinger. -- Fahrenheit451 17:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The introduction is not presented in an encyclopedic way. The introduction is presented as an inflammatory newspaper article might present it which was attempting to rouse public opinion against the Church of Scientology. A definition of "suppression" is not present. A definition of "Suppressive Person" is not present. There is no introduction of the concept. What there is, there is a sort of "Scientology uses this word to punish people with, people who disagree with them". And even that is presented as if some unknown, unknowable, hidden high portion of the organization met in secret and made these declares. Its not a good introduction. Farenheit451, I understand that might be how you feel about SP declares but might it be possible to present the article with less passion and a more encyclopedic point of view? What say you? Terryeo 06:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
What do you propose? I did list the twelve attributes of an anti-social personality, with citation, as well as LRH's comments on S.P.'s from the SHSBC, with citation. That presents an accurate definition of SP. In the cofs, it has become "any person who the ijc says is in an ethics order". That is very far from LRH. Over to you.-- Fahrenheit451 15:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo, I wonder if you are making a technical degrade in your statement, "it is a sort of partial definition of a suppressive person." It is a descriptive and differentiative definition of an SP. Period. Could it be that the organization is grossly misusing LRH's works and falsely declaring people? You need to look at other possibilities, one of which could be that the cofs is currently altering and misusing LRH's works. Your statement, "the many policy letters which an Ethics Officer must study before he is qualified to make an offical suppressive person declare." indicates that you think there is "other policy" which allows certain people to circumvent standard policy and label people SPs at will.-- Fahrenheit451 23:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I tweaked the intro a bit. It's true that in normal English, "suppressive person" would probably mean "people who suppress other people", but it has a specific meaning and history within the context of the CoS. It's the specific CoS meaning of this term that is the entire subject of the article, so I think it's better to say how they use it than to express an english tautology.
Friday
(talk)
19:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
As this link - http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1968-10-21-cancel-fair-game.html - clearly shows, in 1968 Hubbard ordered the declaration of 'Fair Game' to cease on account of BAD PUBLIC RELATIONS, while the policy on how to deal with the fair game, that is a Suppressive Person, is to continue. LamontCranston 10:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Fair Game continues in the cofs. There are many accounts of this on the internet and in the published media.-- Fahrenheit451 23:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
You are wrong about that Terryeo, there are many documented cases in the media and internet where former members and critics have been targeted by the cofs for harassment. Terryeo, you are either not telling the truth, or you are not cognizant of what has happened.-- Fahrenheit451 22:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
"I would have given you $5,000 last year at this time that there is NO Fair Game. But the truth is, Fair Game is alive and just as bad as ever. I was even doing it, and didn't realize it." ( Tory Christman) -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Scientology Tech says that about 2.5 percent of the population of the planet fulfills the definition of "Suppressive Person". 2.5 % of 6,500,000,000 (6.5 billion) = 162,500,000 persons. That's Scientology's estimation of the quantity of "Suppressive Persons" on our planet today. How many of them are "enemies of Scientology"? Well, who knows, but 162 million people is a lot of people to have declared as "enemies" But that is exactly what the article presents. It presents and introduces that Suppressive Persons are declared enemies of Scientology and implies that they are declared because they are somewhat critical of Scientology. That isn't the meaning of the term "suppressive person" as Hubbard created it nor as the Church of Scientology uses it. As one example, sometimes people are declared "suppresive persons" and then work through the program which is always included in any suppressive person declare, and become active members and in training or auditing again. Yet if I try to edit the article, other editors always revert me as being "too POV" or some other, like sounding reason. Suppressive persons are simply that, people who would rather suppress you than to help you. There is quite a lot of technology (or call it something besides technology if you like), but anyway, quite a lot of it to the idea. Hitler was one, Saddam was one, extreme criminals are suppressive. You simply can't have a winning situation for everyone with a suppressive person in the mix. Terryeo 03:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for asking. Scientology Gossary states: "Suppressive person: a person who possesses a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause him to suppress other people in his vicinity. This is the person whose behavior is calculated to be disastrous. Also called antisocial personality." And then, another official glossary states: "Suppressive person: a person who possesses a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause him to suppress other people in his vicinity. This is the person whose behavior is calculated to be disastrous. Also called antisocial personality." That same site goes on to spell out more about this sort of personality, the antisocial personality which is presented here as "Suppressive Person," at: details of it It says in part: "there are those among us – about 2 1/2 percent of the population – who possess characteristics and mental attitudes that cause them to violently oppose any betterment activity or group. Within this category, one finds the Adolf Hitlers and the Genghis Khans, the unrepentant murderers and the drug lords." "It has been found that a person connected to an antisocial personality will suffer greatly decreased survival, impeding ... progress ... in all aspects of his life." The next page, more of that website goes on to state something about the effect such an anti-social personality (suppressive person) has on other people: "While it is commonly believed to take two to make a fight, a third party must exist and must develop it for actual conflict to occur." And finally there are a number of Scientology technical bulletins, booklets and references about it which spell out further details and state again the things the websites state. Terryeo 16:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
What would it take to get some concensus? The article does not state what the term means in Scientology. It inaccurately states how a declare of a suppressive person is made. It gives perhaps 5% or some small percentage of its use within Scientology. Every word of the article is some sort of biased criticsm without a single sentence which clearly states the actual situation without bias. Yet I attempt a reasonable introduction and it is reverted, not used to create a neutral article, but baldly reverted. What would it take? Are all of the editors so POV that they cannot tolerate the simple definition of the term? Terryeo 03:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipediatrix likes, "warns" about the anti-social personality. I like "educates" because the term, the codification of such people as Hilter and Stalin, Saddam and others is a new idea. History tells of their atrocities but history does not give us lessons so we can know what to look for in people and understand what motivates such people. History doesn't educate us about how to deal with such people or how to predict the behaviour of such people. Scientology does. I like "educates" and Wikipediatrix likes "warns". Terryeo 17:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, perhaps you're right I read:
The Church's official glossary of terms states: suppressive person: a person who possesses a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause him to suppress other people in his vicinity. This is the person whose behavior is calculated to be disastrous. Also called antisocial personality.
and then I read:
The Church expresses concern about these "antisocial personalities", meaning those "who possess characteristics and mental attitudes that cause them to violently oppose any betterment activity or group", including the Church itself.
I recognize you have used the phrase, "expressed concern" and I appriciate that you did. But isn't the second statement almost an exact word - for - word of the first statement with an evaluation of what the Church is doing ? Terryeo 22:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
The practice of Fair Game was cancelled by following reference.
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 JULY 1968 (Cancels HCO Pol Ltr 18 October 67 issue IV) Remimeo PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS (Applies to both Orgs and Sea Org) LIABILITY - Dirty grey rag on left arm. May be employed at any additional work. Day and night confinement to premises. DOUBT - May be confined in or be barred from premises. Handcuff on left wrist. May be fined up to the amount carelessness or neglect has cost org in actual money. ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned. May not be protected by any rules or laws of the group he sought to injure as he sought to destroy or bar fair practices for others. May not be trained or processed or admitted to any org. TREASON - May be turned over to civil authorities. Full background to be explored for purposes of prosecution. May not be protected by the rights and fair practices he sought to destroy for others. May be restrained or debarred. Not to be communicated with. Debarred from training and processing and advanced courses forever. Not covered by amnesties. Note: Any lower Condition assigned is subject to a Hearing if requested and to Ethics Review Authority or Petition if the formula is applied. A ship captain's okay is required in the SO for conditions below Danger, similarly in orgs where the Exec Council must approve one (Exception is Missions during the Mission who have unlimited powers). L. RON HUBBARD Founder LRH:js Copyright © 1968 by L. Ron Hubbard ALL RIGHTS RESERVED http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/audit/foster07.html
I think this kind of challenges the arguments that have been made previously in the discussions about this matter on this page. -- Olberon 17:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
What has been presented here indicates that the Fair Game policy letter was cancelled, but the practice is a different body of data. That practice could still be in place and countenanced. -- Fahrenheit451 18:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
"THE HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 OCTOBER 1967 Issue III POLICY AND HCOB ALTERATIONS HIGH CRIME Recently, during the reorganisation of WW, it came to light that in some Continental orgs EXEC SECS an SECS had an occasion actually ordered that certain Pol Ltrs and HCOBs were not to be followed. This order is an illegal order and any staff following it is guilty of executing an illegal order. Any executive issuing such an order shall hereafter be considered as committing a high crime which on proof beyond reasonable doubt constitutes a HIGH CRIME and can carry the assignment of the Condition of TREASON for both the person issuing the order and the person who receives and executes it. All such instances MUST be reported at once to the International Ethics Officer at WW. Failure to report such an order to the Int E/O when one knows of it carries with it the assignment of a Condition of Liability. Lines for the amendment of Policy already exist as per other Pol Ltr and until an amendment is legally and completely passed the old policy must be followed. HCOBs cannot be amended. LRH: jp Copyright © 1967
and then we have also:
This would take care of that. -- Olberon 19:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Again, what is policy in writing and what is done are two different bodies of data. "In the fog of war", one can justify all manners of law breaking, certain cofs members who were in the Guardian's Office were caught at breaking laws even after policy was in place otherwise. So, the issue is, even though Fair Game is cancelled as a policy, is the practice still extant in the cofs?-- Fahrenheit451 21:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
All this back-and-forth about old HCO PLs is a moot point: As recently as 1994, in appeals for Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology, Scientology's position was that "Fair Game" was still a "core practice of Scientology", and therefore protected as "religious expression". (Source: Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology, JCA-147, pages A-7, 15 & 16.) That would take care of this. wikipediatrix 19:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Fair Game was canceled a long time ago. Who knows if it was a forgery, but LRH canceled it. I think, because he knew it was wrong. Andreas' website is no a reliable source and this officially determined this in Terryeo's arbitration -- Nikitchenko 00:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
This sentence sometimes appears in the article. Those classified as Suppressive Persons are automatically specified as Fair Game (FG), which is a Scientology classification in its own right. That sentence could assert "were automatically specified as Fair Game, which was ...", but it is just plain wrong to assert: "are automatically specified as Fair Game which is ...". That wrong assertion is supported by two references. The second is: whatisscientology That link does not say that fair game is a practice, nor does it say that fair game was a practice", it doesn't say anything about about Fair Game.
I incorportated the following editing:
I changed sentence:
Into: (changes/additions in bold)
What I write is totally true and verified. The term 'Fair Game' has not been in use since 1968. (I also provided for fully valid referencing: "Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P.Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971, Chapter 7 ('Foster Report')", linked to it's exact location on the Internet). To claim that "Those classified as Suppressive Persons are automatically specified as Fair Game" is a falsity and completely unsubstantiated! In the original text 2 sources are provided for: '[6] [7]'.
Obviously both these 'reference sources' are quite improper to be used as such. They may be used as an external link, but using them as a 'reference source' is seriously violating Wiki NPOV rules! Both these links I had moved to the bottom of the page as 'external links'. I did not remove them out of the article as a few have claimed. A comment has to be made here about this paragraph that I left fully intact in the article: "The Church claims to have stopped declaring people "Fair Game" in 1968, but in 1989 and 1994 appeals for Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology (see JCA-147, pp.A-7, 15 & 16), Scientology's position was that "Fair Game" was still a "core practice of Scientology", and therefore protected as "religious expression". This forwards one angle of the situation and is basically what some persons have claimed in a court of law.
And what do we see? ALL of my additions and corrections forwarding NPOV are being reverted repeatedly! Specific substantiated arguments are also not being presented. For the most it is done through expressing generalities. The comments made in the history of the article will speak for themselves. The first person to revert is Dick Stevens
Then we have Wikipediatrix:
Question is what important information did I discard of? Fact is that I did not remove any data! I simply moved it to the appropriate places. But Wikipediatrix however physically gets rid of my fully valid added link (=data), and my verified referencing to the 'Foster Report'. Also what 'consensus' does she refer to? Is the 'consensus' not to follow NPOV and discuss on the talkpages? This person is not joining with arguments. I started this discussion on her talkpage. She comments: "Whatever. I said all I have to say in my edit summary. If you don't like it, feel free to complain to Wikipedia's management. Bye-bye. wikipediatrix 19:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)"
But her edit summary claims that I removed data when I did no such thing. She however discards of my valid referencing and data!
Another person is:
No reason given for this revert.
A last person is:
Also no reason for this revert is given. Although this person placed following message on my talkpage: "Thank you for experimenting with the page Suppressive Person on Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thank you for your understanding. A link to the edit I have reverted can be found here: link. If you believe this edit should not have been reverted, please contact me. - Glen TC (Stollery) 20:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)"
I will let his comments speak for themselves, although it is obvious irony. The person does not join either the discussion on the talkpage of this article!
This article probably will need some interference of others to ensure the information is forwarded in a neutral manner and that information to both sides of the issues are properly represented! Any of the mentioned persons reverting my edits are factually defying NPOV on this article. -- Olberon 09:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Please start reading and duplicating! You write: "Olberon removed the citations to xenu.net and fairgamed.org, which he has acknowledged doing", this is not true!!! I moved these links as external links to the bottom of the page, they were not moved out of the article! But you in fact move my additional external link and referencing to the 'Foster Report' out of the article! Fact is that you do yourself of what you accuse me of doing, it is documented! These 2 referencing links of yours provide biased opinions offering a conclusion based on ignoring data. Thus making it POV and therefore unsuitable as reference source. These are comments from 2 persons on their personal website! That what I say is confirmed by actual documented fact! (HCO PL 21 July 1968)
You are unable to substantiate that "Those classified as Suppressive Persons are automatically specified as Fair Game" today or even 1994 or 1981! Show me the writings from Ethics Orders etc. itself that this is the case. Fair Game is only confirmed being in actual Church writings in that particular time period! We have 2 conflicting data, BOTH should be fairly represented in the article! You base your WHOLE CASE on what some person(s) said in some court. NPOV. Both of you violate it.
Above are the rules of how to deal with this! -- Olberon 07:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible that we could agree on a couple side issues and get those out of the way? Myself, I don't have a problem with SP rather than S.P. and with the indentation. As far as I know, CoS doesn't use periods in their documents for acronyms. AndroidCat 16:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Until Olberon stops accusing every other editor who disagrees with him (and there are many) of "opposing NPOV" and other simplistic insults, I don't see any chance of constructive conversation with him being possible. By continuing to insult and alienate anyone who dares question his ranting, he begs the question whether his real desire is to simply disrupt this article, instead of working with other editors to improve it. If Olberon is sincere, he might do well to turn down the attitude six notches and accept that Wikipedia works by consensus: NO ONE can singlehandedly make Wikipedia articles say whatever they want them to; not myself, not AndroidCat, not Stollery, not Terryeo, and certainly not Olberon. wikipediatrix 21:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I added: * Information about Ethics Orders, Declares and Suppressive Persons
Please forward your exact arguments why this would not be proper! -- Olberon 12:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
5th paragraph, following the text "Those classified as Suppressive Persons are automatically specified as Fair Game (FG), which is a Scientology classification in its own right [6] [7]."
He writes amongst other:
The facts is that andreas does not mention HCO PL 21 July 1968 (quoted in full earlier on this discussion page) that previously had cancelled the Fair Game policy letter (HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV). Instead Andreas refers to HCO Policy Letter of 21 October 1968 and draws the erroneous conclusions:
Fact is that HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV had already been cancelled by HCO PL 21 July 1968 3 months earlier! This is confirmed by the 'Foster Report' "Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P.Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971, Chapter 7.
Obviously both these 'reference sources' are quite improper to be used as an actual reference source. Firstly because these are personal opinions of both the webmasters of these sites. Secondly they are proven to contain incorrect information. They may very well be used though as an external link, but using them as a 'reference source' is violating Wiki rules. Suggested is to move these links to the bottom of the article as external links. The 'Foster Report' is proposed as a valid reference source. -- Olberon 16:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Basically Wiki is not about being right or wrong.
And you want to remove the 'Foster Report' reference that is "sourced material"? Your reference: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Terryeo/Evidence#xenu.net_content)
These 2 links discussed in this chapter are presently found in the article direct to 2 personal opinions. It does not say in that reference (Request for Arbitration) that this is allowed as source referencing. Some data from that site xenu.net may, and some data from that site may not be used as such! It simply depends on what you are linking to. You can not cover the whole of xenu.net under this! It does not say in the information found at your link that the decision has been taken that you actually can! Direct us to it if it does! The outcome is that you have no argument. -- Olberon 16:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems like every month another $cientologist pops up (Terryeo, Al, JimmyT, UNK, Nikichenko, Nuview now you...) and we have to cover this issue again and again: Xenu.net is a valid source, see
here
Okay? -
Gl
e
n
T
C
(Stollery)
13:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not ask for the religious affiliation of its editors. Wikipedia has a single goal which is to present good information to people. Olberon has spelled out why some of the information in the article is not good information. Surely, Stollery and Wikipediatrix, your goals are Wikipedia's goals, are they not? Good information, cleanly presented, good attributions, easily linked and explored by the reader ? Scientology comprises a large amount of information, personal websites present certain aspects but Wikipedia's standards raise the bar and require attributions and not just personal opinions and original research. Olberon has made valid statements which anyone can easily check out. To refuse to reply to what he has stated, to continualy revert personal website opinions into Wikipedia articles is vandalism. WP:RS states, "personal websites may not be used as secondary sources of information (in wikipedia articles)". 65.147.74.58 20:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC). I am user 65.147.74.58 and didn't realize I wasn't singed in. Terryeo 12:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to point out that two reverts today were made by user "Monkey_power", however revert on May 26th was made by user "Monkeypower" (notice missing underscore) - these are two different users, and one probably tries to impersonate another. Should we do something about that?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Futurix ( talk • contribs) .
Hmmm. No, thats not me. This is my first and only account on Wikipedia. I am flattered someone decided to create an account in homage of me, though. If they are here only to create mischief for other editors then I am sorry, as that was not my intent for editing here. -- Monkeypower 13:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Im not a part of any cabal thats all I have to say -- Monkey power 23:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
OK. A review of this talk page and the Scientology "information war" on Wikipedia tells me I am wading into controversial waters. So I will start first of all with my POV - I am neither a Scientologist nor an anti-Scientologist and know next to nothing about Scientology doctrine except what I have read on Wikipedia. My interest is to work toward making Wikipedia as reliable and objective as possible as a reference source and countering attempts to turn it into a battleground of hotly held opinions. In short, my observation is this - I fail to see how a list of Actions that indicate a person MAY be declared an SP can serve any purpose except to promote someone's personal negative opinion of Scientology. If there is a policy letter out there issued by Scientology that contains this list - fine, but then some sort of verifiable reference is needed. However, I note that no attempt has been made to include any verifiable reference (including by the author who added this material) since the "citation needed" tags were introduced over three and a half months ago. As to the quality of the article generally, I note that this feature of Scientology appears to be similar to that of excommunication prevalent in many religions. It seems to me that a section acknowledging this with some sort of comparison of the differences and similarities with excommunication in mainstream religions would raise the standard considerably. Really Spooky 21:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
See discussion # 17 for details.
Invalid source links are being pushed as such, when reality is that they lead to personal opinions of 2 persons on their personal website. In addition it has been shown that various information found there is false and is pushing an opinion while ignoring certain data.
An argument is made with this info about xenu.net: The conclusion made was "Notwithstanding Heldall-Lund's disclaimers, xenu.net contains many works by prominent independent critics of the Scientology church". This basically indicates that these works as being indicated as deriving from "prominent independent critics" (this having been established by publication in bookform or being recorded as official reports and various) can be specifically be used as a reference source. That information though that is not indicated as such and clearly indicate that these are the personal opinions of the webmasters of these sites can not be used as reference sources. "I, Andreas Heldal-Lund, am alone responsible for Operation Clambake. I speak only my own personal opinions."
When I remove these links as indicated in discussion #17 and change them to external links they get reverted time after time after time by users such as Futurix and Wikipediatrix. Comments are being used such as: "(rv of Olberon's edit - for the very same reasons as Wikipediatrix, Stollery, and other editors)". These persons however do not address my arguments in my detailed query as found in discussion #17. All that I say is ignored and brushed off with a general comment!
An additional point is that my reference source also gets discarded of. This is the socalled 'Foster Report' "Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P. Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971." (see details in discussion #17). Meaning that the readers of the article do not get a chance to consult this official report.
It appears that arbitration is needed to settle this. I don't see how an agreement can be reached with these persons reverting these edits. The subject is quite controversial. In any way the subject should be approached in a neutral way in order for the reader to make up his/her own mind about it. If there exist alternate information of different opinions they should ALL be properly represented. The reverts of my edits however prevent that from happening! A particular interpretation is pushed and the other is deliberately disposed of.
A last comment can be made that Fair Game was only in use in the period 1965-68. This is the only period in which it is documented being in use. This 'Foster Report' lays out in detail with full quotations of the relevant policy letters how it was dealt with. But as explained previously my referencing to this official report is discarded of by Futurix, Wikipediatrix and also Stollery. (some of Futurix comments why he finds this improper to use are found in discussion #17)
For above reason I changed sentence:
Into: (changes/additions in bold)
This improvement is also repeatedly being rejected.
All these actions basically show that some intend to maintain a certain flow of information to be kept in this article. I write these lines here in order for that the unknowing reader can read here what is happening and that one should be aware that this article apparently is at war. -- Olberon 05:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1. You contradict yourself. You say here "The point is that third-party information from xenu.net is perfectly acceptable as Wikipedia source. Personal opinions of xenu.net webmaster are obviously not acceptable and were never used on Wikipedia (despite Terryeo's claim)." I have proven by fact that this is being done in this article with your 2 links. They specifically address the personal opinions of the webmasters, but you push them! (see also discussion #17 & #13).
2. The 'Forster Report' Chapter 7 confirms:
That issue redefined the Fair Game definition. The 'Foster Report' also notes "Some idea of the strictness of the internal discipline can be gleaned from the following", it then it quotes in full HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 OCTOBER 1967, Issue III POLICY AND HCOB ALTERATIONS - HIGH CRIME. HCO PL 21 July 1968 was the valid policy and as such was to be followed and not HCO Pol Ltr 18 October 67 issue IV that was previously cancelled by it.
3. Which is your personal opinion. The 'Foster Report' is an official published report that supplies alternate information about the issue and you deliberately delete it as it does not confirm your POV. This action violates Reliable Sources & Verifiability.
4. You deliberately dispose of alternate information. You writing "and wrote your usual logical fallacies instead :-)" could be interpreted as a personal attack.
I filed a complaint for vandalism for this article. -- Olberon 12:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Fahrenheit451, this quote doesn't looks like it is about SPs - in fact it can be attributed to usual careerists. Why do you think it is worth keeping? Futurix 11:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, the article is about the scientology topic of S.P.s. This is quoted information from Hubbard on that topic. I think careerists and what Hubbard describes are two different things so it not a fact, but rather your view on it. I do not express my POV in the quotation. -- Fahrenheit451 20:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This was removed by another editor without a discussion. I added it back with wikipediatrix's formatting.-- Fahrenheit451 01:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I've asked at Village Pump how to deal with this situation. Obviously a personal essay on a personal website is not to be used as a secondary source of information as Stollary, Wikipediatrix and other editors are doing with their reversions. So I've asked what the procedure is for this sitatuation. I included difference links to show the reverted edits by some editors. and quoted some edit summaries. Terryeo 08:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
People... I ran across the Village Pump discussion. You might not want an outside opinion, but here it is anyways. The xenu.net link is obviously a personal essay. All the text interspersed with the Policy Letters can be only that. The fairgamed.org link is an entire website being cited for one sentence. The arb decision noted that convenience linking to third party info was fine. If you're referencing the Policy Letters, can't you just cite the individual letters and use the xenu and fairgamed links as convenience links?
Also, why exactly is the intro longer than the article itself? With the things Olberon is removing it's virtually the entire article. KSevcik 12:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
In the edit summary of his latest edit-war revert, Olberon denies that the consensus is against him on this. "What consensus?", he asks. Well, let's see.... so far, Olberon's edit has been reverted by Futurix, AndroidCat, Stollery, Fahrenheit451, Wikipediatrix, Dick stevens, Vivaldi, Monkeypower, Antaeus Feldspar, and 81.66.101.199. Olberon's primary cohorts in his edit war have been Nikitchenko (who turned out to be a sockpuppet and is now banned from Wikipedia) and Monkey power, which looks like another sockpuppet specifically designed to imp Monkeypower and cause confusion. wikipediatrix 15:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Original research is against Wikipedia Policy, however, and this is a point that Olberon does not want to acknowledge, Reliable Source is a Guideline, subject to consensus. RS is a matter of editorial judgment. And for Olberon's edification, I am Not antagonistic to Scientology, rather I majorly agree with it. I am dismayed by those who call themselves scientologists, but attack editors who disagree with them, flagrantly and repeatedly violate wikipedia policy, then give long-winded justifications for it, and in general, create enemies of themselves and the church of scientology on wikipedia. -- Fahrenheit451 20:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
That statement is not a generality, but is based on my observation of a number of editors who call themselves scientologists, such as Terryeo, UNK, Nikitchenko, Al, and so on.-- Fahrenheit451 00:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Olberon, you seem to be wikilawyering here, just giving captious criticism. RS is a guideline and any edits under that guideline are subject to editorial consensus. The consensus here is contrary to your POV. You will have to defer to this consensus. -- Fahrenheit451 23:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Wrong again, Terryeo, anything put on a publicly accessible website is legally published to the public.-- Fahrenheit451 00:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not attempting to change it. You are under a indefinite ban. You have demonstrated that you cannot apply editing policy. You have been unsuccessful so far. -- Fahrenheit451 05:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
One of the difficulties about personal websites is the creation of this kind of situation: [4] and [5] The arbitrator's make statements about Clambake.org: [6] An arbitrator states in discussion, "...As for the website being a personal one, we seem to all be in agreement that it is one. Please note that the Proposed decision has not made any ruling regarding whether or not article on it can be referred to or linked to." [7] He then goes on to say, "The issue has been framed as to whether or not xenu.net is a personal website, which is why I've responded to that specifically; it undoubtedly is. However, when a website is merely reproducing information from reliable sources (e.g. Time magazine), then I don't see any issue in linking to that website for convenience. Note, this is not a blanket approval for doing so in all cases. I have seen many instance of websites that are not reliable enough to even reproduce outside information". At WP:RS, Fahrenheit451 was part of an extensive discussion on this issue at [8] and [9] Clambake's status as a personal website has been extensively addressed at WP:RS by Fahrenheit451, by Wikipediatrix and by Stollary. Here is one example of past discussion: [10] Terryeo 01:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm a newcomer, so I apologize if I've got it wrong, but is the current dispute whether the statements:
Another controversial policy related to those classified as Suppressive Persons is " Fair Game", which is a Scientology classification in its own right [11] [12].
and
The SP declaration process has not always been so bureaucratic: former Scientologist Bent Corydon describes seeing Scientology franchise holder Gary Smith declared Suppressive on the spot during the October 1982 Mission Holders' Conference, simply for not obeying a shouted order to change his seat. Corydon, Bent (1987). L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman?. Secaucus, New Jersey: Lyle Stuart. ISBN 0-8184-0444-2.
{{ cite book}}
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ignored (|author=
suggested) ( help) An online edition of the book is at [13].
are properly sourced? In other words, are those the only clambake cites, and is there a dispute as to both of them, or only one? Thanks, TheronJ 02:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Oberon, let me ask one more question to clarify this dispute.
The first Clambake link leads to two letters apparently published by the Church of Scientology, plus some personal commentary. Does everyone agree that the letters themselves are authentic or are they in dispute?
The second Clambake link goes to the text version of a 1998 book Messiah or Madman. Is there a dispute as to whether the relevant section of the book is reproduced accurately? (Alternately, if the article just cited directly to the book without the link, would there still be a dispute?) TheronJ 22:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the ' Foster Report'. It is official published material and therefore can be used as a valid reference source. I found that it does not quote HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV, but it does quote the policy letter that was replacing it in July 1968 and various other policy letters relating. "Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P.Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971, Chapter 7.
A published copy of HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV can be found in: Scientology; Basic Staff Hat Book, Number 1, released 1968, page 26. This publication is however seriously rare. -- Olberon 10:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
If I understand correctly that:
then it seems to me that the easiest solution is just to replace the first Clambake cite with the less controversial cites, and move Clambake to the bottom of the page. Are there any objections? TheronJ 17:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
What is the purpose of that section? It is painful to read, and adds nothing to the article. Futurix 12:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I added it as it is about the subject of sps. It is relevant for that reason. I don't think there is anything painful about it. Olberon actually added half of the prior paragraph. I opine that it enhances the article with more relevant information. -- Fahrenheit451 21:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
It's funny how in the last 2 days most links to materials critical of Scientology were removed (only 3 left, at the very end of article, and 2 of them are to church documents - not the critical materials on the same websites). At the same time article gained many new links to official CoS websites (and Foster report, of course). Makes you think, isn't it? Futurix 13:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no policy that references should be "balanced". That is your POV.-- Fahrenheit451 21:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Removed uncited cruft. Do NOT add again without proper citation. -- Monkey power 10:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The most recent edit summary reads much like a personal attack. Wikipediatrix (rv vandalism by Monkey power, whose name is apparently chosen to deliberately cause confusion with Monkeypower, who was editing this article first.) This isn't the place to bring up user names because nothing can be done about user names here. There is a guideline and a page about user names and that is the place to bring up confusions people have about user names. The Village Pump has discussed user names, some user names are not allowed for various reasons. This isn't the place to bring up user names. To state that an editor is "deliberately causing confusion", yet to refuse to participate in the discussion about the reverted material is uncivil, at least uncivil. Also, it isn't a very enlightening edit summary and it isn't a creative edit. For large, wholesale reversions like that, there is a section of this talk page. That is what it is for, to talk about that section. One editor asked about that material, "why is it there, its painful to read". Terryeo 15:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
TheronJ, you can't exchange the 'Foster Report' link with a link that goes to a scan of HCO PL 21 Oct 68 Cancellation of Fair Game in 2nd chapter, 3rd paragraph where it says: "The extent to which this policy has continued beyond 1968 is a subject of controversy. The Church claims to have stopped declaring people "Fair Game" in 1968 [6], but in 1989 and 1994 appeals for Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology etc.."
The cancellation of Fair Game issue is not only about HCO PL 21 Oct 68! The 'Foster Report' addresses the situation at that time. We are not just quoting here from this HCO PL 21 Oct 68 as at the other location. -- Olberon 06:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
At the place where just a quotation is made from HCO PL 21 Oct 68 a reference to the scan of that issue does suffice. It does however NOT suffice if we have a different situation. At this particular location it has to address "The Church claims to have stopped declaring people "Fair Game" in 1968". Why is this so hard to understand? -- Olberon 15:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The extent to which this policy has continued beyond 1968 is a subject of controversy. The Church claims to have stopped declaring people "Fair Game" in 1968,[cite] but in 1989 and 1994 appeals for Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology, the Church's position was that "Fair Game" was still a "core practice of Scientology", and therefore protected as "religious expression".
[cite]L. Ron Hubbard, "HCO Policy Letter (HCOPL) of 21 October 1968"; see also Enquiry into the Practice and Effects of Scientology; Report by Sir John Foster, K.B.E., Q.C., M.P.; Published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, December 1971, ("Foster Report"), Chapter 7, paragraphs 176-77
The footnote appearing as [9] states: Hubbard, "The Auditor", no. 31, p. 1. (1965). But The Auditor no. 31 could not have been published in 1965. I am not accusing anyone of making something up, but the Auditor no. 31 was published sometime between the Auditor no. 27 (Aug 1, 1967) and the Auditor no. 34 (March 1, 1968) and could not have been published in (1965). Either the date is wrong, the number is wrong or the publication is mis-stated in some other way. I don't have a copy of that issue and can't tell you what, exactly is wrong. User:ChrisO introduced that quotation and citation: 14:41, 3 June 2006 ChrisO (some major revisions; rm dubious xenu.net link, add more info) [14] Terryeo 15:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The footnote appearing as [11] references the section Alleged abuse of SP label within the Church of Scientology and is mis-stated. The quotation within the article is accurate but the date of the lecture within the article is also wrong. The date of that lecture was 19 July 1966 and not 19 June 1966. The footnote should appear more like this: About Rhodesia, Hubbard, lecture given on 19 July 1966, a Saint Hill Special Briefing Course lecture. The quote begins, "You should upgrade your idea ..." and the quote is accurate but the date of the lecture is wrong. And the attribution is incomplete because it does not name the lecture as it should. Terryeo 18:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Footnote or reference [12] Flag Executive Directive 2830RB of 25 July 1992, "Suppressive Persons and Suppressive Groups list". A Flag Executive Directive is distributed to various organizations of the Church. It is rarely published to the public, perhaps never. To my own personal knowledge, no FED has ever been published to the public. I could be mistaken. If it has not been published to the public and is an internal distribution, then it should not be used as a secondary source of information. Terryeo 06:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
FYI, it is kept on harddrive only now after the 1994 "spillage" into the public domain.-- Fahrenheit451 02:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Hubbard Communication Office (that organization which originated and distributed Hubbard's communications) Policy Letters are documents about the policy and day to day administration of the Churches, Missions, and Organizations of the Church of Scientology. HCO PL is the commonly used abbreviation. 16 Mar 71 (the date March 16, 1971) Issue II (the second unique document of this level of document issued by Hubbard on that date)
HCO PL 16 Mar 71 Issue II, An Operating Standard Rule "This is rigid policy, not advice: . . . all Ethics Orders or actions must state what the person has to do to be reinstated in good standing." The same word for word statement appears in Introduction to Scientology Ethics Chapter 13, page 345, Bridge Publications, Inc. 1998, ISBN 1573181323
HCO PL 23 Dec 65RB (revised 8 Jan 91), Suppressive acts suppression of Scientology and scientologists spells out what must be included in an ethics order, such as an ethics order which would expell a suppressive person. This includes a list (A to E), doing the list of actions would then reinstate the person in good standing. During the expelled person's reinstatement actions there is a single office of the Church which they communicate with. "<The expelled person's> only <line of communication> is the International Justice Chief, who: A) Tells the person .. to cease all suppressions. B) Requires the person to do a public announcement (sometimes by writing a letter) about their situation and change of attitude. C)Requires that all debts owed to Scientology be paid. C) May require that a suitable amends project be done. D) Requires training beginning at the lowest level of the Bridge. D) <the holder of the office of Justice Chief does certain paperwork> E) <the holder of the office does more paperwork>"
Here is an example of an ethics declare which expells a person. It states that which I have stated. Any communication marked "To International Justice Chief" which is handed to any receptionist in any Church of Scientology would be, I believe, routed to that office. Terryeo 03:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Really Spooky (rv, Hubbard's quote cannot affirm anything it was made 40 yrs ago + it affirms nothing, he only expresses concern of possible abuse). Hubbard was the creator of the idea of Suppressive Person. He is deceased and the idea is widely published. When did he create the idea? Well, he created the idea 40+ years ago. His quote affirms 1) he created the idea. 2) the organization which he likewise created should use the idea 3) the idea should be used with some care. The idea is a powerful one and is that a small percent of people create most of the trouble. But everyone knows that. The idea though, must be used with some care because it certainly isn't appropriate to jail everyone who jaywalks nor to excommunicate everyone who doesn't prey 3 times a day, nor to expell everyone who says, "I can't believe what Hubbard is saying in this paragraph?!?!" (a phrase I have myself used). Terryeo 15:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what purpose is intended by the phrasing "...the Church of Scientology claims is an assertion of Hubbard that 'regardless of apparent traits, all men are basically good....'" This is, in fact, asserted by Hubbard; it is stated explicitly in Introduction to Scientology Ethics, and from what I understand is a basic belief of Scientologists. Darguz Parsilvan 00:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
http://www.dictionary.com defines Repentance as; "Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin. See Synonyms at penitence"; which states "These nouns denote a feeling of regret for one's sins or misdeeds." Would you agree that when we talk about "Repentance" we are talking about a feeling or an emotion that an individual experiences? That is what that particular dictionary says, "a feeling of regret". Well, you know that a feeling which a person has does not build the house back which the arsonist burnt down, nor make the leg whole that the dangerous driver smashed into. I honestly don't see what applicability "repentance" has to "being redeemed", nor even what "being redeemed" has to do with anything, anyway. Man is basically good. If he makes a mistake and harms the Church then the harmed party, (the Church) keeps the door open a crack so he can again become active in the Church. Do you see? Man is basically good. Period. Therefore the Church's policy of dealing with a declared suppresive person is based on that information, man is basically good. Terryeo 04:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This might be one of those cornerstones of non-understandable difference which I have found here and there. No quote quite fits "repentant" because "repentant" is considered to be an emotion, it is placed on the emtional Tone scale and the organization moves on. That a formerly declared SP feels an emotion is perfectly okay but has nothing at all to do with the actions which will be taken (or not taken). However, it might be noted that a "program of amends" is sometimes required for an expelled individual to become active in the Church again. Terryeo 04:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe ReallySpooky may not have understood my reasons for changing the section header earlier today. I base this on his/her edit summary: "Let’s keep in NPOV – stating there is abuse is critical opinion; noting there have been allegations and/or warnings of abuse is reporting the facts". This was in response to my changing the section header from "Alleged abuse of the SP label within the Church of Scientology" to "Abuse of the SP label within the Church of Scientology", which I explained with my edit summary: "it seems that "alleged abuse" and "predicted possible abuse" both fall under the topic of "abuse"."
ReallySpooky is correct that "stating there is abuse is critical opinion"; where I believe he/she is going wrong is in thinking that naming a section header "Abuse of the SP label" is, inherently, stating there is abuse. According to that logic, we should be going through all the Scientology articles and getting rid of any section headers such as "Thetans", "Reactive mind", "Engrams", or "Suppressive Persons" -- these are all things which only some people allege to exist, and if merely naming something in a section header is equivalent to asserting its existence, then we certainly can't assert the existence of all these very disputed constructs by giving them section headers.
Obviously, such a thing would be absurd. Naming something in a section header only asserts that it is a topic of discussion. In this case, not only is it a topic of discussion, it would be even if no one had ever alleged that abuse of the SP label had ever occurred! Hubbard is quoted as discussing the possibility that the SP label would be abused; to discuss Hubbard's prediction that such abuse might happen in the future, it would be entirely logical to use the section header "Abuse of the SP label". It is what he's discussing! The fact that we're also discussing actual allegations of such abuse just makes it doubly logical. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do you editors cover "abuse of SP label by church" but you don't also cover "Abuse of Social Personalitites by SP's" such as murders, kidnaps, death threats, poisonings, forgeries, imposterings, stalking, lying. Why is there a Suppressive Person article but no Social Person article. This is POV pushing... having one article but not the other. I was stalked, forged, impostered, and other sabotage for years by notable anti-scientologists just because I was a scientologist who exposed their crimes which were later indisputibly documented. -- Social personality abused 23:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't there a
Social Person article, yet there is this Suppressive Person article? Why? Because the anti-scientologists here are POV pushing. --
Social personality abused
02:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Fahrenheit451, I note your quote from Hubbard that 'cross-hatting' is a trait of an SP. Could you (or someone else knowledgeable on the subject) please add a line explaining what this means in Scientology-speak? If that cannot be satisfactorily done, or this is just a throw-away comment by Hubbard that doesn't really have anything to do with the topic, IMHO it just clutters up the article. Also, what is the purpose of the "waffle-waffle-waffle-waffle-waffle" line? If this line has any informative value at all, it is not evident and some context would seem in order. If its inclusion is simply designed to make Hubbard look incomprehensible and silly, however, it should be removed. Whilst it may be entertaining, the purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform, not take the piss out of Scientology. Really Spooky 15:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph presently reads: From the lecture 7203C05 ESTO-10 "Revision of the Product/Org Officer System - Part 2" Hubbard also included another trait: "So, an SP does various things and one of the things he does is cross-hatting. And it's a phenomenon I hadn't actually analyzed until fairly recently and looked back over the number of times it has happened. Cross-hatting. You're trying to hat this person as one thing and somebody has crossed our lines and is hatting him as something else. And I'd begun to realize that that is one of the favorite tricks of an SP. You really don't want to be here, what you really want to be doing is waffle-waffle-waffle-waffle-waffle." It is ORIGINAL RESEARCH an editor has done when an editor stated Hubbard also included another trait. That is not what Hubbard did. It is false to say so. The traits are listed. The new paragraph introduces the abbreviation "ESTO-10" with no explanation whatsoever and the information "7203CO5" with no information of what the symbols mean, the paragraph is dispersive and not informative, it contains ORIGINAL RESEARCH which an editor has introduced and it is NOT an additional characteristic, but is part of the education which Staff Members of the Sea Org get after they join the Sea Org and are learning the ropes. The only person who would ever observe a suppressive person creating a Cross-hatting situation would be a Sea Org Member. The 12 characteristics of a Suppressive Person are spelled out. There are no others. It is false and original research to state that there are others. It is, in fact, an outright LIE ! Terryeo 17:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Now User:Fahrenheit451 has removed the lie by calling his introduced information "an additional datum". Well good. But, his introduced information still has the difficulty of having brought into the article a brand new Scientlogy Jargon term which is Cross-Hatting. The article does not contain any definition of that term which is not widely known and has a very specialized meaning and is particular to Scientology Administration. Where is a reader to learn ? Common dictionarys don't define the term, as the article stands it presents confusion. Terryeo 05:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Interesting comment, as Hubbard nowhere qualifies or limits the application of his statement to only "within the Church". It is also interesting that someone wants to remove this paragraph after the terms have been defined. Suppression of knowledge is a horrible thing.-- Fahrenheit451 00:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo statements about the Flag Executive Briefing Course are interesting. If the reference Terry cites really exists, it is the first time there has been any statement from the Church of Scientology International that the ESTO lectures are "unpublished". The Church of Scientology of California never made any such statement and the definition in Admin Dictionary by L. Ron Hubbard ISBN 0-88404-040-2, which is culled from Church issues written by Hubbard, make no such claim. What is more, in the soft cover version of What is Scientology, 1998, ISBN 1-57318-122-6 has no page 950, but on page 481 it states, "In April 1970, Mr. Hubbard invited executives from all churches to attend his Flag Executive Briefing Course on the flagship Apollo. The end result placed true administrative experts in all local churches. And with the later publication of the Organizational Executive Course and Management Series volumes, all policy was now readily available to the 2,553 staff of the 118 churches and missions in 20 nations." There is no evidence that the febc or the esto lectures were "an inter-organizational memo", but in fact they were course lectures in Church policy given by Hubbard, which is and has been offered to any Scientologist. According to the Admin Dictionary by L. Ron Hubbard, a memorandum is "a written communication such as an informal letter, report or dispatch showing who it is directed to, who wrote it, the subject matter, date, message, and signature. It is primarily for use in communicating to different people, departments, branches, or locations of the same organization. In communicating to persons outside of the organization, one uses a formal business letter." So those lectures aren't a "memo". Terryeo's term "publication to the public" is perhaps his own version of how he wants wikipedia policy to be. But on wikipedia, publication is sufficient, and both the esto and febc transcripts have been published, despite what the CSI may now claim, if indeed they do. Also, the numerical code on Hubbard's lectures are not even defined in Technical or Administrative dictionaries. Both cross-hatting and esto were defined. Terryeo should Assume Good Faith on the part of other editors he does not agree with and understand that wikipedia is a work in progress.-- Fahrenheit451 00:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The transcripts ARE published and any student is given the lecture transcripts to keep for their reference. The original publisher is the Church of Scientology of California Publications Organization. That organization was disbanded and suceeded by the Church of Scientology International Golden Era Productions. The course is taken by enrollment and paying the required fee. Yes, both the lectures and the transcripts bear copyright notices. So, there is no original research here. The arguments Terryeo provided on his talk against it are not valid.-- Fahrenheit451 20:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I add a quote that Terryeo removed from his page because it is right to the point and demolishes his "published to the public" argument"-- Fahrenheit451 20:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I should make it clear that in the quote posted above by Fahrenheit, I was referring specifically to Terryeo's argument that the materials are "unpublished" and therefore can't be cited at all. To quote, "Permission of the copyright owner is not required to cite an unpublished work as a source or to use information from it." [18]
The issue of whether a source is verifiable per WP:V is a separate matter. If the original source (in this case the FEBC lecture "The Org Officer/Product Officer System Part 1") can be purchased from the CoS, or has been deposited in public libraries, or has been quoted in reliable sources, or is otherwise publicly accessible, then it's verifiable and legitimate quote fodder. If hasn't been, then it isn't. The onus really is on the people who wish to include this quote to demonstrate that it meets any of the conditions I've just mentioned. -- ChrisO 23:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Some false information has entered into this discussion: The FEBC and ESTO course are available to ANY member of the CofS who has taken the prerequisite courses. There is no such requirement as "high ranking". There is also no stipulation anywhere in Scientology that a non-Scientologist may not view the FEBC or ESTO materials. Let's not use false assumptions to jump to bogus conclusions. -- Fahrenheit451 23:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The FEBC and ESTO are available to every Scientologist, period. Terryeo, please refrain from attempting to redefine WP:V with your own criteria. Thank you. -- Fahrenheit451 01:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The folks at the flag land base probably would not even let you in, unless you were some high mucky-muck v.i.p. They have been known to bar cofs members from entering their buildings. One could probably set up an appointment at another venue and be allowed to see them.-- Fahrenheit451 15:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The definition is incorrect. Here is an online link: [20] and the definition from the Management Dictionary pg. 211 by L. Ron Hubbard is: "the febc consists of high level administration technolgy. It is the Class VIII Course for admin. The name, Flag Executive Briefing Course reflects the fact that this course was intitially developed in 1970-71 on Flag. The febc checksheet is built around the Management Series volume plus the FEBC tapes which give the Product/Org Officer system. It includes a daily period of training drills through the course time plus some personal Esto actions done on the student such as product clearing and post purpose clearing. (HCO PL 17 May 74R)-- Fahrenheit451 15:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Really Spooky, I am advising you to remain civil, your tone seems to be getting hostile. You or someone else alleged the stipulation that a non-scientologist may not see the febc or esto transcripts. I refuted it, but the burden of proof is on the originator of the allegation if this person cares to pursue it. I would be happy to show you the lecture transcripts if you were here. In any case, I will be searching the web for an online reference. -- Fahrenheit451 15:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no way to verify that the church of scientology international's position is that the febc is unpublished, and if indeed that is what is stated, it is clearly a falsehood. The Church of Scientology of California made no such statement. The lecture and transcript are published for distribution to students of said course. As for your speculation about the publication motives of the CSI, the "jargon" is no more difficult than reading HCO policy letters. The fact is, the CSI DOES sell the febc to a public who are students that have done the prerequisites. -- Fahrenheit451 23:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo, I did a websearch and cannot verify your statement about the febc being "unpublished". I even went here [21] and there is no such data. Only the softcover version of WIS is available from that site, so there is no way for me to order it. Could it be that the hardcover version of What is Scientology is "unpublished"? -- Fahrenheit451 00:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I think you should take a look at these images: [22] and [23] This is a promo scan I made that clearly shows the FEBC is offered to cofs public. I am not accusing You of deception, but based on my direct observation and this promo, it is verifiable that the course is offered to the public. The recordings may not be offered for public sale at present, but students purchase transcripts with the course, which they keep. :-)-- Fahrenheit451 13:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
My point is that it IS published, but of rather limited distribution, which can make verifiability difficult.-- Fahrenheit451 19:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
C7203C05 (delivered in the 03 month of 1972 and contained on medium 'CO5', which is a kind of audio tape) was a lecture by Hubbard. It was delivered aboard the ship, Apollo that month. Its title was Handling Personnel. The Church published a hardbound book titled; What is Scientology, of 1059 pages, ISBN 1573180785. Apparently Fahrenheit has the paper back version which does not contain a chapter which the hardbound contains. The hardbound says about that (and the other 11 lectures of that series, delivered abord the Apollo), on page 950, Delivered to Flag Executive Briefing Course students aboard the Apollo, this series of lectures details the Establishement Officer system. (Unpublished work, not available for purchase. Can be heard by those enrolled on the Flag Executive Briefing Course and Establishement Officer Course.). Please notice, the Church clearly announces the lecutre is not for sale and further, please notice the lecture can not be owned by individuals. In fact a person may only listen to that lecture and may never own that lecture. Terryeo 06:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
And that is an outright lie. The audio recording is no longer for sale. The transcription is for the student to keep and use in the future. The "church" in this case is the church of scientology international, not the original church of scientology of california, which made no such statement. -- Fahrenheit451 08:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, F451 and I don't seem to cooperate very well in this section. However, I have located an online repository of some of the information which F451 implies I have "lied" about, that is, the hardcopy version of the book What is Scientology has a chapeter 48, Complete List of Scientology Materials which the softbound book does not. A similar list appears online at this link. Terryeo 09:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Reference #[8] the 12 characteristics of a suppressive person references to HCO PL 27 Sept 66, Issue II, The Antisocial Peronality The Anti-Scientologist. It is a perfectly good reference. However, the 12 characteristcs of a suppressive person appear at Scientology's official website. That link is [24] Both references might be used, the official online version is far more available than a written policy letter. The policy letter expands the online version very slightly, but both pieces of information are word for word duplicates. Terryeo 17:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The webbed version is based on the original. Both should be cited, then. -- Fahrenheit451 13:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
At Origins and definitions the article states: The concept appears to have first been introduced into Scientology in 1965, possibly as a response to increasing challenges to Hubbard's authority from discontented members [4]. The original research appears is, possibly as a response to increasing challenges to Hubbards authority from discontented members. That is pure whoop-dee-do original research. It is a conclusion on the part of an editor. It states what an editor sees as a possibility. The reference to [4] is an attempt to substantiate User:ChrisO's personal research which he introduced editing difference on 3 June 2006. If that reference [4] makes that statement, then quote the source and cite the page number. As it stands right now the article presents ChrisO's original research and WP:NOR applies. Terryeo 00:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The problem here is the problem that often happens when you read a section and present information in an article, ChrisO. You do not directly quote the information which has led you to the conclusion you present in the article. Such writing may be perfect in your articles at clambake.org, such writing may be stunning in your posts on newsgroups. But such writing is not encyclopedic, it does not satisfy WP:V which states explicitly that the responsibility for information introduced by an editor, be quoteable by that editor. You have introduced a weasel worded phrase. Can you supply an internet page which has that weasel worded phrase of page 131? Then there is the second part of your introduced information. possibly as a response to .. which is an evaluation of Hubbard's motivations. I know otherwise, but I don't expect you to understand otherwise. What I expect you to do is exactly what WP:V and WP:RS and WP:CITE spell out you should do. You should quote the book, you should use the words it says in print. That would be encyclopedic writing and I suspect the weasel worded phrase, appears to have been introduced in 1965.. does not actually appear in the book. Terryeo 22:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I looked the up Ruth A. Tucker's book on the internet. I found exerpts from it. [25]] She makes contradictory statements. According to the exerpts Tucker states:
The whole of Suppressive Person Technology is an ethical action and its only purpose is to allow technology to happen. It is used if technology is stopped, it is used to stop that thing which is stopping technology. The article presently states: One of these is "disconnection," in which Scientologists are ordered to cease all communication with the declared "suppressive,". That's not entirely wrong but it presents information without a context. That might have happened a few hundred times but other ways of dealing with the situation were tried first. It is a last resort, but the article doesn't present the action in its context. In extreme cases, one of these is "disconnection," in which a Scientologist is ordered to cease communication with the declared suppressive person," would be accurate. Alternatively, After other methods have been tried could be used. Terryeo 16:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)