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"Freemasonry was suppressed in some Iron Curtain countries in the Communist era, with notable exeptions being East Germany, Romania, Yugoslavia, and Cuba. The founder of the Red Army in the Soviet Union, Leon Trotsky, was a Freemason as were a number of overseas trade and diplomatic supporters such as Armand Hammer, Victor Rothschild, and the Rockefeller Foundation."
First of all, Here's info on Trotsky: [1]. He was a Bolshevik, and not a Freemason. The other uncited info has nothing to do with the article. MSJapan 14:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Further, Freemasonry was most definitely supressed in Communist Romania, the National Grnad Lodge there being reconstituted only after the revolution of '89. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.66.132.187 (
talk)
17:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
The best idea I thikn is to let this sit until Wegian gets back, but I know Quisling dismantled Freemasonry in Norway as either appeasement of or an alliance with the Nazis. So, do we want to consider it a separate item, or part of the Germany section? MSJapan 03:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The allegation doesn't appear in the cited article (which is from 1941, not the 50s), and Bernheim is clearly stating that although a letter of support was sent, Masonry was dormant in Germany. Rudolph von Sebbetendorff (or Sebottendorff, either works) is a direct lift from FreemasonryWatch (Google it), and there are plenty of other sources that disprove it (same google) such as: "Sebottendorff's real association with Freemasonry is difficult to determine, although it appears that he was initiated into an irregular body of the Rite of Memphis under the Grand Orient of France." from here. So, i would say that once again, POV dispute is from a disreputable source and is thus manufactured to make a point rather than disseminate facts. MSJapan 03:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The Nazis claimed that high degree Masons were willing members of "the Jewish conspiracy" and that Freemasonry was one of the causes of Germany's loss of the First World War. In 1933 Hermann Goering wrote that "..in National Socialist Germany, there is no place for Freemasonry."[4] In 1937 Joseph Goebbels inaugurated an "Anti-Masonic Exposition" to display objects seized by the state.[4] The Ministry of Defence forbid officers from becoming Masons, with officers who remained as Masons being sidelined[1]. Field-Marshal Paulus was denounced as a "High-grade Freemason" when he surrendered to the Soviet Union in 1943.[5]
Some Freemasons were active in the opposition. Masons would sometimes be arrested, not for being Masons, but for offences such as treason with their membership noted during sentencing. Freemasonry continued to be practiced clandestinely, however, and it i sclaimed that during this time German Masons took to wearing the forget-me-not as a badge of recognition (although it is alleged that this was a later invention by Theodor Vogel, the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of Germany in 1948-49[6]).
There were nine Grand Lodges in Germany when when the Nazis seized power. Broadly speaking there were six small and generally liberal "Humanitarian" Lodges and three larger "Old Prussian" Lodges[7]. The latter were avowedly nationalist and would not allow Jewish members, but they did allow Jewish Masons to visit the Lodge as early as 1854[8].
In the first few months of Nazi rule the six "Humanitarian" Grand Lodges were suppressed, while the three "Old Prussian" Grand Lodges were permitted to continue operating as 'Frederick the Great Associations' after sending letters denying that they were Freemasons.
_________________ There is no verifiable claim that 80,000 or more Masons were killed during World War Two. The website that quotes this number itself does not have any proper citation for where this number was gotten either (a source with no source itself or with no cited research done by its author is just as bad/suspect as a single source with no proper attribution. There is no verifiable record of any Mason being killed or put in a concentration camp just because he was a Freemason; there are plenty of records for men who were put in concentration camps because they were Jews and/or socialists and who happened to be Freemasons. ATK66 —Preceding unsigned comment added by ATK66 ( talk • contribs) 22:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
80.000 - 200.000 killed masons is still unproved. Sorry for writing here on the discussion-Site. My English is too bad and I am not familiar with Wiki-Editing. The citation "Hodapp - Freemasons for Dummies" may be wrong. In its german translation it gives no number of victims. There is a recent german Quartuor Coronati work about it, which figures about 100-300 masons being killed because of being a mason (about 600 being killed if you add those who were "jew" and masons). (as far as I do remember, it was released about 2005 - 2010, but I cannot look it up at the moment) "Lennhoff - Posner - Binder 'Internationales Freimaurerlexikon' Herbig-Verlag 2002" seems to have the right numbers for Germany (keyword "Nationalsozialisten"): - before 1933 there were about 80.000 Masons (as far as I know this was in 1927, in the years 1928 - 1932, those who were masons for their carrer left the lodges, when the NSDAP-fraction in the Parliament increased) However: Following Lennhoff-Posner-Binder, from this huge amount of 80.000 german Masons - 62 Masons were killed by Nazis and/or authorities e.g. Trade-Union-Leader Wilhelm Leuschner (or peace-activist and "irregular" mason Carl von Ossietzky) - 238 Masons expelled out of Germany (and survived ?) - 53 Masons arrested in concentration camps (I understand: But survived) - 377 Masons being dismissed from their job / professional carrer I think the relation of members / victims should be the same in the occopied contires. 80.000 - 200.000 seems to be completely wrong, but nevertheless is cited again and again in anglo-saxon medias. The question seems to be: What was the main reason for persecution / prosecution: Political persecution or membership in a masonic lodge, racistic persecution oder membership in a masonic lodge, persecution of partisans oder being a member of a masonic lodge. And at least a lot of masons lost their life because of war (soldier and civilians). So: How tight-knotted was the victim's masonic mind-set and his other occupations/engagements (politics, resistance...)
By the way: It should be considered, that before 1933 a lot of german masons were part of middle-class and upper-class establishment (army-officiers, higher administration, industry). From the today point of view, these men were often strictly nationalists, not seldom racistic and anti-Semitic. If they left their lodges and could show credibly that they changed the sides, they were part of the State / Nazi-Administration - and changed from victims to . As for exampel Hjalmar Schacht, the President of German Reichsbank. Could anybody bring this theme in a acceptable form? CHF —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.92.51.120 ( talk) 17:24, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Bold textThe claim of 80 to 200 000 freemasons being killed by the nazis is still in the article, but i can't find any sources supporting this. There is a striking contrast here to German Wikipedia's article "Geschichte der Freimaurerei" which says that of the 80 000 German Free masons 62 were murdered, among them writer Car von Ossietzky, Julius Leber and other politicians on the left (obviously not prisoned primarily because they were freemasons). There is no doubt that anti-freemasonry was an essential part of nazi ideology, but at the same time it is of great interest to know if there was a genocidal-like purge against them (which the numbers 80-200 000 indicates) or not. I have not the qualifications to decide about this, but it should be a prioritized task for Wikipedia to get this as correct as possible. Bold text — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
62.16.140.69 (
talk)
10:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
For some reason I can't identify, this page appears under "D" in the Freemasonry category. Does anybody know why, and more importantly, how to fix it? MSJapan 02:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The Template:Disputed-section tag has been removed, which is fair enough. However I have asked for citations on a lot of facts in here. If Bessel is going to be used, could the direct quotes be included in the footnotes?
I'll wait a while before reinserting the Template:Disputed-section tag. By then it probably won't be needed.
JASpencer 12:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Bessel and the American Mercury newspaper are quoted quite generally. Can we have quotations from the articles in the citations?
Are there any tags to ask for more detail within a citation? JASpencer 21:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I found a ton of possibly relevant things in English here while trying to dig up more on Virchow (which I've had no luck on yet), but I don't have time to look at all of it ATM. MSJapan 22:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Neither of those states is even arguably totalitarian. I would suggest, for those who think that they belong in this artice, that become familiar with the three subjects (i.e. the two states and the category of totalitarianism). Please read the wikipedia article Totalitarianism and read up on the states in question.
As to Spain, Spain Franco's Political System from the The Library of Congress Country Studies states:
"In spite of the regime's strong degree of control, Franco did not pursue totalitarian domination of all social, cultural, and religious institutions, or of the economy as a whole. The Franco regime also lacked the ideological impetus characteristic of totalitarian governments. Furthermore, for those willing to work within the system, there was a limited form of pluralism. Thus, Franco's rule has been characterized as authoritarian rather than totalitarian."
As to the Papal States, Encarta notes that totalitarianism is "a form of autocracy peculiar to the 20th century". Encarta goes on: "Those countries whose governments are usually characterized as totalitarian were Germany, under the National Socialism of Adolf Hitler; the USSR, particularly under Joseph Stalin; and the People's Republic of China, under the Communist rule of Mao Zedong (Mao Tse-tung). Other governments have also been called totalitarian, for example, those of Italy under Benito Mussolini, North Korea under Kim Il Sung, Syria under Hafez al-Assad, and Iraq under Saddam Hussein." Mamalujo 18:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Someone smarter than I might know something about the Craft in Indonesia. I have searched the web but not been able to find anything definitive...... Investigations reveal Master Masons being stationed in the Dutch East Indies - but not being active there...... Today there seems no trace of Lodges in Indonesia - it is illegal ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.46.179 ( talk) 06:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
In answer to your question, today it is a banned organisation and it is possible that laws have been introduced prohibiting meetings. Now there was a time when there were lodges in Indonesia, but they were all banned in 1965 by President Soekarno.--Aquizard 10:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquizard ( talk • contribs)
We problably need a better source, but this might be of interest
President Sukarno was the founding president of Indonesia from 1949 to 1965. During the last few years of his presidency the he & his government became increasingly paranoid about ‘Subversives’, with Sukarno issuing a Presidential Decree in 1962 that declared illegal many organisations that could potentially be used by these Subversives. This included: The Dutch Grand Lodge, Rotary, Lions Club and a range of other similar organisations. In 2002, President ‘Gus Dur’ Wahid, decided that banning organisations of this kind was a breech of basic human rights and against the principles of democracy. Consequently he rescinded the Presidential Decree of 1962. As far as I have found, Freemasonry has not yet restarted in that country [1] I will try to remember to do some research into the 2002 action of President Wahid unless someone can jump in with more information.. Melbournemason ( talk) 06:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
That is interesting information as to why the closures happened. Often it is recorded that the State has changed its view on Masonic practise and banned it, introducing laws to enforce this, as was the case with a number of the Gulf States. Interestingly Masonry although banned in Uganda in the 1970's under the Idi Amin government has re-established itself in Uganda, with a new lodge opening up in 1985. This was after a period of time when the Amin government was ousted. Whilst you state that the Wahid government has overturned this original ban, have the laws been recinded? It will take some time before masonic activity gets re-established in Indonesia once again. Well done on bringing this to our attention. Aquizard ( talk) 19:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.7.94.153 ( talk)
References
I have included some important laws that were introduced and repealed in the UK that established a crude system of registration that affected Freemasonry. Aquizard 15:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquizard ( talk • contribs)
In this article, it says that Morgan was definately kidnapped by Freemasons and possibly murdered, while in Masonic conspiracy theories, it states Morgan was supposedly kidnapped and murdered, as alleged by a group of Anti-Masons. Besides the obvious contradiction, this article shows some major NPOV. Mego ( talk) 04:53, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
User:Mamalujo has twice now attempted to add a portion of Kennedy's address to the American Newspaper Association from 27 April 1961 to this article, and in response to my comment that the quoted section did not address Freemasonry by name, and was therefore undue weight, said "Nice try". Let's look at the full paragraph from which the quote came:
The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know.
It is a paragraph about official censorship of the press or stifling of dissent. Attempting to link this to suppression of Freemasonry in the United States is original research, unless someone can find a reliable source that states this speech in general, or this paragraph specifically, was about Freemasonry.-- Vidkun ( talk) 13:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Just like we add tags for information derived from older versions of currently published works (like the Catholic Encyclopedia and Britannica), the section which cites various laws in the US doesn't address whether those laws exist anymore, and, given that the cited sources date to the 1800's, it's obsolete info, without further info on the continuance of those laws. As the article stands now, it would lead a reader to assume Vermont still has anti-Masonic laws.-- Vidkun ( talk) 14:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The section named "Other countries" seems a bit out of place, badly worded, and way too short. What's the best way to rectify this? Someone was trying to be helpful there so removing it seems rather uncouth… 96.18.238.19 ( talk) 08:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Turkey does not ban freemasonry as well. It should be noted in the Islamic World section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.251.73.174 ( talk) 20:44, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
this reference to an "islamic jurisdictional college" is amiss since there doesn't appear to be anything called that at al-azhar. maybe the council of senior scholars is meant? it is worth bearing in mind, though, that al-azhar is not a muslim vatican. -- chris — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14D:4000:2D5C:E6CE:8FFF:FE5E:4F7C ( talk) 10:46, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Holy Unix, IBM, Linux and Motorola, pray for us ! If you think the way I think, with all the informations you can find into Internet and books, maybe, finally, Freemasonry is not such a bad thing. At the moment my biggest problem is psychiatry. Science, medicine, religion, shamanism ? What is psychiatry in fact ? Regards! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.228.138.85 ( talk) 10:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
It is as factually incorrect to translate "Tiandihui" into English as "Freemasonry" as it would be to translate "Green Berets" into Chinese as "Shaolin monks." "Freemasonry" is not a generic term for all secret societies. When I have time I will rewrite that section. Mpaniello ( talk) 17:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
"Freemasonry was suppressed in some Iron Curtain countries in the Communist era, with notable exeptions being East Germany, Romania, Yugoslavia, and Cuba. The founder of the Red Army in the Soviet Union, Leon Trotsky, was a Freemason as were a number of overseas trade and diplomatic supporters such as Armand Hammer, Victor Rothschild, and the Rockefeller Foundation."
First of all, Here's info on Trotsky: [1]. He was a Bolshevik, and not a Freemason. The other uncited info has nothing to do with the article. MSJapan 14:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Further, Freemasonry was most definitely supressed in Communist Romania, the National Grnad Lodge there being reconstituted only after the revolution of '89. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.66.132.187 (
talk)
17:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
The best idea I thikn is to let this sit until Wegian gets back, but I know Quisling dismantled Freemasonry in Norway as either appeasement of or an alliance with the Nazis. So, do we want to consider it a separate item, or part of the Germany section? MSJapan 03:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The allegation doesn't appear in the cited article (which is from 1941, not the 50s), and Bernheim is clearly stating that although a letter of support was sent, Masonry was dormant in Germany. Rudolph von Sebbetendorff (or Sebottendorff, either works) is a direct lift from FreemasonryWatch (Google it), and there are plenty of other sources that disprove it (same google) such as: "Sebottendorff's real association with Freemasonry is difficult to determine, although it appears that he was initiated into an irregular body of the Rite of Memphis under the Grand Orient of France." from here. So, i would say that once again, POV dispute is from a disreputable source and is thus manufactured to make a point rather than disseminate facts. MSJapan 03:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The Nazis claimed that high degree Masons were willing members of "the Jewish conspiracy" and that Freemasonry was one of the causes of Germany's loss of the First World War. In 1933 Hermann Goering wrote that "..in National Socialist Germany, there is no place for Freemasonry."[4] In 1937 Joseph Goebbels inaugurated an "Anti-Masonic Exposition" to display objects seized by the state.[4] The Ministry of Defence forbid officers from becoming Masons, with officers who remained as Masons being sidelined[1]. Field-Marshal Paulus was denounced as a "High-grade Freemason" when he surrendered to the Soviet Union in 1943.[5]
Some Freemasons were active in the opposition. Masons would sometimes be arrested, not for being Masons, but for offences such as treason with their membership noted during sentencing. Freemasonry continued to be practiced clandestinely, however, and it i sclaimed that during this time German Masons took to wearing the forget-me-not as a badge of recognition (although it is alleged that this was a later invention by Theodor Vogel, the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of Germany in 1948-49[6]).
There were nine Grand Lodges in Germany when when the Nazis seized power. Broadly speaking there were six small and generally liberal "Humanitarian" Lodges and three larger "Old Prussian" Lodges[7]. The latter were avowedly nationalist and would not allow Jewish members, but they did allow Jewish Masons to visit the Lodge as early as 1854[8].
In the first few months of Nazi rule the six "Humanitarian" Grand Lodges were suppressed, while the three "Old Prussian" Grand Lodges were permitted to continue operating as 'Frederick the Great Associations' after sending letters denying that they were Freemasons.
_________________ There is no verifiable claim that 80,000 or more Masons were killed during World War Two. The website that quotes this number itself does not have any proper citation for where this number was gotten either (a source with no source itself or with no cited research done by its author is just as bad/suspect as a single source with no proper attribution. There is no verifiable record of any Mason being killed or put in a concentration camp just because he was a Freemason; there are plenty of records for men who were put in concentration camps because they were Jews and/or socialists and who happened to be Freemasons. ATK66 —Preceding unsigned comment added by ATK66 ( talk • contribs) 22:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
80.000 - 200.000 killed masons is still unproved. Sorry for writing here on the discussion-Site. My English is too bad and I am not familiar with Wiki-Editing. The citation "Hodapp - Freemasons for Dummies" may be wrong. In its german translation it gives no number of victims. There is a recent german Quartuor Coronati work about it, which figures about 100-300 masons being killed because of being a mason (about 600 being killed if you add those who were "jew" and masons). (as far as I do remember, it was released about 2005 - 2010, but I cannot look it up at the moment) "Lennhoff - Posner - Binder 'Internationales Freimaurerlexikon' Herbig-Verlag 2002" seems to have the right numbers for Germany (keyword "Nationalsozialisten"): - before 1933 there were about 80.000 Masons (as far as I know this was in 1927, in the years 1928 - 1932, those who were masons for their carrer left the lodges, when the NSDAP-fraction in the Parliament increased) However: Following Lennhoff-Posner-Binder, from this huge amount of 80.000 german Masons - 62 Masons were killed by Nazis and/or authorities e.g. Trade-Union-Leader Wilhelm Leuschner (or peace-activist and "irregular" mason Carl von Ossietzky) - 238 Masons expelled out of Germany (and survived ?) - 53 Masons arrested in concentration camps (I understand: But survived) - 377 Masons being dismissed from their job / professional carrer I think the relation of members / victims should be the same in the occopied contires. 80.000 - 200.000 seems to be completely wrong, but nevertheless is cited again and again in anglo-saxon medias. The question seems to be: What was the main reason for persecution / prosecution: Political persecution or membership in a masonic lodge, racistic persecution oder membership in a masonic lodge, persecution of partisans oder being a member of a masonic lodge. And at least a lot of masons lost their life because of war (soldier and civilians). So: How tight-knotted was the victim's masonic mind-set and his other occupations/engagements (politics, resistance...)
By the way: It should be considered, that before 1933 a lot of german masons were part of middle-class and upper-class establishment (army-officiers, higher administration, industry). From the today point of view, these men were often strictly nationalists, not seldom racistic and anti-Semitic. If they left their lodges and could show credibly that they changed the sides, they were part of the State / Nazi-Administration - and changed from victims to . As for exampel Hjalmar Schacht, the President of German Reichsbank. Could anybody bring this theme in a acceptable form? CHF —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.92.51.120 ( talk) 17:24, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Bold textThe claim of 80 to 200 000 freemasons being killed by the nazis is still in the article, but i can't find any sources supporting this. There is a striking contrast here to German Wikipedia's article "Geschichte der Freimaurerei" which says that of the 80 000 German Free masons 62 were murdered, among them writer Car von Ossietzky, Julius Leber and other politicians on the left (obviously not prisoned primarily because they were freemasons). There is no doubt that anti-freemasonry was an essential part of nazi ideology, but at the same time it is of great interest to know if there was a genocidal-like purge against them (which the numbers 80-200 000 indicates) or not. I have not the qualifications to decide about this, but it should be a prioritized task for Wikipedia to get this as correct as possible. Bold text — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
62.16.140.69 (
talk)
10:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
For some reason I can't identify, this page appears under "D" in the Freemasonry category. Does anybody know why, and more importantly, how to fix it? MSJapan 02:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The Template:Disputed-section tag has been removed, which is fair enough. However I have asked for citations on a lot of facts in here. If Bessel is going to be used, could the direct quotes be included in the footnotes?
I'll wait a while before reinserting the Template:Disputed-section tag. By then it probably won't be needed.
JASpencer 12:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Bessel and the American Mercury newspaper are quoted quite generally. Can we have quotations from the articles in the citations?
Are there any tags to ask for more detail within a citation? JASpencer 21:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I found a ton of possibly relevant things in English here while trying to dig up more on Virchow (which I've had no luck on yet), but I don't have time to look at all of it ATM. MSJapan 22:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Neither of those states is even arguably totalitarian. I would suggest, for those who think that they belong in this artice, that become familiar with the three subjects (i.e. the two states and the category of totalitarianism). Please read the wikipedia article Totalitarianism and read up on the states in question.
As to Spain, Spain Franco's Political System from the The Library of Congress Country Studies states:
"In spite of the regime's strong degree of control, Franco did not pursue totalitarian domination of all social, cultural, and religious institutions, or of the economy as a whole. The Franco regime also lacked the ideological impetus characteristic of totalitarian governments. Furthermore, for those willing to work within the system, there was a limited form of pluralism. Thus, Franco's rule has been characterized as authoritarian rather than totalitarian."
As to the Papal States, Encarta notes that totalitarianism is "a form of autocracy peculiar to the 20th century". Encarta goes on: "Those countries whose governments are usually characterized as totalitarian were Germany, under the National Socialism of Adolf Hitler; the USSR, particularly under Joseph Stalin; and the People's Republic of China, under the Communist rule of Mao Zedong (Mao Tse-tung). Other governments have also been called totalitarian, for example, those of Italy under Benito Mussolini, North Korea under Kim Il Sung, Syria under Hafez al-Assad, and Iraq under Saddam Hussein." Mamalujo 18:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Someone smarter than I might know something about the Craft in Indonesia. I have searched the web but not been able to find anything definitive...... Investigations reveal Master Masons being stationed in the Dutch East Indies - but not being active there...... Today there seems no trace of Lodges in Indonesia - it is illegal ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.46.179 ( talk) 06:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
In answer to your question, today it is a banned organisation and it is possible that laws have been introduced prohibiting meetings. Now there was a time when there were lodges in Indonesia, but they were all banned in 1965 by President Soekarno.--Aquizard 10:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquizard ( talk • contribs)
We problably need a better source, but this might be of interest
President Sukarno was the founding president of Indonesia from 1949 to 1965. During the last few years of his presidency the he & his government became increasingly paranoid about ‘Subversives’, with Sukarno issuing a Presidential Decree in 1962 that declared illegal many organisations that could potentially be used by these Subversives. This included: The Dutch Grand Lodge, Rotary, Lions Club and a range of other similar organisations. In 2002, President ‘Gus Dur’ Wahid, decided that banning organisations of this kind was a breech of basic human rights and against the principles of democracy. Consequently he rescinded the Presidential Decree of 1962. As far as I have found, Freemasonry has not yet restarted in that country [1] I will try to remember to do some research into the 2002 action of President Wahid unless someone can jump in with more information.. Melbournemason ( talk) 06:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
That is interesting information as to why the closures happened. Often it is recorded that the State has changed its view on Masonic practise and banned it, introducing laws to enforce this, as was the case with a number of the Gulf States. Interestingly Masonry although banned in Uganda in the 1970's under the Idi Amin government has re-established itself in Uganda, with a new lodge opening up in 1985. This was after a period of time when the Amin government was ousted. Whilst you state that the Wahid government has overturned this original ban, have the laws been recinded? It will take some time before masonic activity gets re-established in Indonesia once again. Well done on bringing this to our attention. Aquizard ( talk) 19:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.7.94.153 ( talk)
References
I have included some important laws that were introduced and repealed in the UK that established a crude system of registration that affected Freemasonry. Aquizard 15:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquizard ( talk • contribs)
In this article, it says that Morgan was definately kidnapped by Freemasons and possibly murdered, while in Masonic conspiracy theories, it states Morgan was supposedly kidnapped and murdered, as alleged by a group of Anti-Masons. Besides the obvious contradiction, this article shows some major NPOV. Mego ( talk) 04:53, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
User:Mamalujo has twice now attempted to add a portion of Kennedy's address to the American Newspaper Association from 27 April 1961 to this article, and in response to my comment that the quoted section did not address Freemasonry by name, and was therefore undue weight, said "Nice try". Let's look at the full paragraph from which the quote came:
The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know.
It is a paragraph about official censorship of the press or stifling of dissent. Attempting to link this to suppression of Freemasonry in the United States is original research, unless someone can find a reliable source that states this speech in general, or this paragraph specifically, was about Freemasonry.-- Vidkun ( talk) 13:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Just like we add tags for information derived from older versions of currently published works (like the Catholic Encyclopedia and Britannica), the section which cites various laws in the US doesn't address whether those laws exist anymore, and, given that the cited sources date to the 1800's, it's obsolete info, without further info on the continuance of those laws. As the article stands now, it would lead a reader to assume Vermont still has anti-Masonic laws.-- Vidkun ( talk) 14:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The section named "Other countries" seems a bit out of place, badly worded, and way too short. What's the best way to rectify this? Someone was trying to be helpful there so removing it seems rather uncouth… 96.18.238.19 ( talk) 08:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Turkey does not ban freemasonry as well. It should be noted in the Islamic World section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.251.73.174 ( talk) 20:44, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
this reference to an "islamic jurisdictional college" is amiss since there doesn't appear to be anything called that at al-azhar. maybe the council of senior scholars is meant? it is worth bearing in mind, though, that al-azhar is not a muslim vatican. -- chris — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14D:4000:2D5C:E6CE:8FFF:FE5E:4F7C ( talk) 10:46, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Holy Unix, IBM, Linux and Motorola, pray for us ! If you think the way I think, with all the informations you can find into Internet and books, maybe, finally, Freemasonry is not such a bad thing. At the moment my biggest problem is psychiatry. Science, medicine, religion, shamanism ? What is psychiatry in fact ? Regards! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.228.138.85 ( talk) 10:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
It is as factually incorrect to translate "Tiandihui" into English as "Freemasonry" as it would be to translate "Green Berets" into Chinese as "Shaolin monks." "Freemasonry" is not a generic term for all secret societies. When I have time I will rewrite that section. Mpaniello ( talk) 17:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)